Mar 142010
 

What did you teach?

What did you learn?

Did you hear the Gospel?

We continue in the Heidelberg Catechism;

Question 112. What is required in the ninth commandment?

Answer: That I bear false witness against no man, (a) nor falsify any man’s words; (b) that I be no backbiter, nor slanderer; (c) that I do not judge, nor join in condemning any man rashly, or unheard; (d) but that I avoid all sorts of lies and deceit, as the proper works of the devil, (e) unless I would bring down upon me the heavy wrath of God; (f) likewise, that in judgment and all other dealings I love the truth, speak it uprightly and confess it; (g) also that I defend and promote, as much as I am able, the honor and good character of my neighbour. (h)

(a) Prov.19:5 A false witness shall not be unpunished, and he that speaketh lies shall not escape. Prov.19:9 A false witness shall not be unpunished, and he that speaketh lies shall perish. Prov.21:28 A false witness shall perish: but the man that heareth speaketh constantly. (b) Ps.15:3 He that backbiteth not with his tongue, nor doeth evil to his neighbour, nor taketh up a reproach against his neighbour. Ps.50:19 Thou givest thy mouth to evil, and thy tongue frameth deceit. Ps.50:20 Thou sittest and speakest against thy brother; thou slanderest thine own mother’s son. (c) Rom.1:29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, Rom.1:30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, (d) Matt.7:1 Judge not, that ye be not judged. Matt.7:2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. Luke 6:37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven: (e) John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. (f) Prov.12:22 Lying lips are abomination to the LORD: but they that deal truly are his delight. Prov.13:5 A righteous man hateth lying: but a wicked man is loathsome, and cometh to shame. (g) 1 Cor.13:6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth; Eph.4:25 Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another. (h) 1 Pet.4:8 And above all things have fervent charity among yourselves: for charity shall cover the multitude of sins.

  No Responses to “The Weekend Word”

  1. FIRST…I know it was “works” to take action and be “first”…but hey 🙂

  2. Very convicting message in this thread. I am guilty…the flesh part of me…not the Spirit that is in me…but my flesh is certainly all of those things…and more…and I repent continually…and need to repent continually…and am confessing and repenting today of sin.

    I am discouraged…or maybe a better word is disgusted…when I know that many read what is in this thread…are “pastors”…and don’t REALLY believe any of it…otherwise they’d respond in repentance to sin and not lie about it.

    Jesus must be Lord…or one cannot (in my experience) have any victory over any of the sins listed in this thread.

  3. “Jesus must be Lord…or one cannot (in my experience) have any victory over any of the sins listed in this thread.”

    Believe,
    One may have temporary victory, a point victory, but not a lasting victory over sin.
    that has to be due to a changed heart, a changed mind a changed nature through the work of God,Christ and the Holy Spirit in ones life.

  4. “but that I avoid all sorts of lies and deceit, as the proper works of the devil, unless I would bring down upon me the heavy wrath of God;
    likewise, that in judgment and all other dealings I love the truth, speak it uprightly and confess it;”

    We are to avoid all sorts of lies, and deceits
    How many think its okay to deceive even as they claim to speak truth?
    Even speaking truth with the intent to deceive by leaving out pertinent information?

    “Lying lips are abomination to the LORD: but they that deal truly are his delight.

    Its not simply a matter of speaking truth, but dealing with a matter truly

    We are to love truth, walk in truth, be upright in all our communications
    In this The Father delights in us.

  5. “One may have temporary victory, a point victory, but not a lasting victory over sin.”
    clarification here:
    over any of the sins listed… not to say to a point of sinlessness perfection.

  6. I John 1:7* but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.

    Most great truths can be turned inside out and still hold true.

    If we are Not in the Light — then we have no fellowship with each other.

    Truth telling is a foundational thing. Upon it rest all of our relationship with each other and with God.

    I have thought long and hard on lying. And tried to boil it down to a definition that really reflects what a lie is.. All Lies are a denial of reality. All denial of reality put you in danger of loosing reality. All Reality if in a sense of God, so all lies are a denial of God. and if we loose our capacity to know God, we must fight this natural propensity in all of us to lie. To deny reality, less we end up with the habit of living in a denial of reality and in the end find when we reject Reality we Reject God and are eternally doomed.

    If we are not honest without gengenuineness we have nothing.

    If we don’t aim at 100% we won’t even get in the neighborhood of the target. Lying come so natural to us, that it might just be for most of us our first sin. And to be a Truth teller is the exact opposite. It is very unnatural to us to speak truth. Many times to speak Truth will divide. Is will cause confrontation – it will cause contention — But it is so basic and so foundational that if we are known to lie, then we have no fellowship. We are cut off.

    Now since we all fail, the remedy is that the moment you know you failed, is to repent and to tell the person or persons you lied to that you lied and thereby restore fellowship. Just keep reading the next few verses in First John — and you’ll see the disease and the treatment to put that disease into remission is right there — Confession —

    I don’t know about you but owning a lie is one of the hardest sins to admit ownership to. To have to go and confess that you lied, — well that’s another part of the problem. Is lying is how we try to escape ownership of all other sins. And once we start to lie the easiest course is to tell another lie to cover the first like. In time you are not just a person who slips once in a while, you are a person who no longer is capable of knowing when he is telling the truth. To believe your own lies.. Well what can I say.. if there ever was evidence that should cause doubt as to ones salvation is that persons ability to own it when they are caught lying. When you realize the have gotten to the point that they believe their own lie, even as they are making it up.. that person is doomed. Nothing short of a miracle will save such a one. And that is why being a truth teller is so important. All other sins involve lying, and perhaps lying contains all other sins in it.

    I love it because 1 John 1: 7* but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin. 8* ¶ If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9* If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10* If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.

  7. >>>If we don’t aim at 100% we won’t even get in the neighborhood of the target. <<<

    This is true for many of the things we discuss here.

  8. Tonight Daniel preached on Matthew 9:35-38 and Matthew 10:1-17.

    We are missionaries; as Jesus sent the disciples out, so He sends us. (my paraphrase)

    Jesus’s heart is for hurting people; we need His heart for them. We need prayer. We need gifts. We need community.

    Where to go – love our family, love the church. Do good deeds and proclaim the good news that way. Do mission simply. Do mission with those who will hear. I forgot Daniel’s final point about how to handle rejection and when to shake the dust from your feet 🙁

  9. one of the things that first caught my attention here (over 2 years ago?) – the Phoenix Preacher was a blog run by a man who understood that there are some things that even a Christian must hate… i would trust Michael Newnham to never intentionally lie to himself or another
    i agree, with DM that truth telling is foundational and we should respect and treasure the principle – our personal shortcomings should humble us, but not to the point of compromise…

    i been on the giving and the receiving end of false witness – so much slander within the Body won’t be straightened this side of Eternity – so sad – God be merciful

  10. I’ve found that if my old flesh and reborn spirit are at war, it helps to sit on a chair and lean one way, toward the Spirit.

    Then you’ll experience the victory.

  11. Wait…forgot something —

    🙂

  12. Truth telling is so foundational that without out it we have nothing. I mean words are all we have to connect us. If I have no confidence that your words are true we have no connection at all.

    I only know Michael from his words. I know his to be a man of integrity because the total of those words, including the fact that he admits it when he is wrong adds up to the sum total of our relationship. If we find out our words are not true words we have nothing

  13. I suppose action speaks louder than words will be a responds to what I just said and that it true

    The High Priest had around the hem of his garment a pomegranate and a bell alternating all the way around his garment.

    The bell would make noise and draw your attention and once your attention was drawn you saw fruit.

    So words and actions go together just like a pomegranate and a bell.

    A man must back up his word with action. I was raise to believe that a man who does not keep his word is worthless, actually worse than worthless.

  14. While I didn’t have a Christian upbringing I was also told that I should not give my word very often and to think it through before you do give your word.

  15. hi everyone…just got home from visiting Buster for the weekend. Looks like he will be out there longer…been over 17 months now…was only supposed to be for a year…

  16. Aaron the High Priest didn’t dress himself. Look carefully — Moses put the garments on him

    We don’t dress ourselves either. Jesus must put on our garments of Righteousness everyday . We just kind of show up in our spiritual underwear and must wait to be clothed upon by Jesus.

    I think a lot of people leave home with no spiritual clothes much of the time.

  17. fading out tonight, but wondering as i do if we confuse truth with ‘being right’ sometimes… what do i mean? dunno – i’m too tired elaborate, but think i’ve watched the phenomena transpire too many times… wish i were clearer, tho 🙄

    Dusty, i pray that yours and Buster’s reunions make up for the separations…

  18. I don’t know if telling the truth is all that it’s cracked up to be. My wife asked this morning, before church if her butt was fat? Now, does anyone here think that I am going to tell her the truth???

  19. MLD…I think Sir Mix-a-lot said it best… 🙂

  20. DMW~ I just love your thoughts on Truth, walking in the light,
    lies and the problems associated with it.

    Dusty~ so did Buster get another year there? Wow, 17 mo, already? Hard to believe that much time has passed!

    Lord teach us to number our days that we may gain a heart of wisdom,
    that we may redeem the time and keep proper perspective in being about our Fathers business
    for our days are short, like a vapor, and soon we will be standing before Him! The suffering that we have known, the sacrifices we make, the denial of ourselves, picking up our cross and following Christ. passionately loving God, filled with the Spirit,and esteeming others higher than ourselves… Teach us Lord how to live pleasing to you

  21. MLD~ Best to tell her the truth.
    Problem is these days, whats ones definition of fat?
    Or to avoid the question, better yet redirect the question as….Its really an unfair question, think about it, everyones derriere is, at least in part.

    Speaking of avoidance,

    DMW,

    where do you see avoidance tactics in realation to walking in truth?
    Its seems to be the preferred method of choice in some leadership circles, that “passive aggressive”, “avoid and shun”, waiting for what some determine as “problem people” or people who generate challenges What one author termed “well intentioned dragons” to eventually go away through frustration of continually being avoided and shunned?

    Yes you are so right, that those who lie are not living in reality, create their own reality, begin to “own” their lies and eventually cannot differentiate between lies and truth, have to make more lies to cover the ones they have initiaited, it s a way for them to live in a fantasy world of their own making… just as you wrote:

    “When you realize the have gotten to the point that they believe their own lie, even as they are making it up.. that person is doomed. Nothing short of a miracle will save such a one.”

    I have seen it all in motion.
    Lies break true fellowship with others and with God

    “…the treatment to put that disease into remission is right there — Confession.”

    and perhaps if you would or could kindly to share a few words about confession.

    So many times we are instructed, or some would like to believe, that to simply say, “I sinned”, or “I lied” now you have to forgive me… forget and move on…
    without being case specific. leaving out details. oftentimes very important details.
    Many times its not only about confessing, but also about restoration where and when possible.

    Failure to follow through with a complete confession, cheats both parties
    It cheats the offended one from knowing what they are forgiving the pother person for
    It cheats the perpetrator in that the are not fully healed nor fully forgiven in only confessing a half or partial truth.

  22. Confession is a lot more that just saying sorry. If is stating in the most brutal terms you can what you sin is, and it is putting into the most brutal words you can how you understand the damage you sin has caused. It means to judge yourself, and agree with God’s judgment.

    To reconcile with the one you sinned against you an expect to have to confess it several times, and to tell them how sorry you are that you hurt them, and again you must be brutal in your self judgment. and when you confess to a fellow human you must be willing to hear their anger vented and not expect everything to be fixed at the first attempt. As it is will all conversations, while we are talking to the person we will fell like is it all settled, but once we get away and think a while new things will pop into our heads, and it is a form of spiritual warfare to fight those wrong thoughts, but often need the aid of the one who sinned against us to be willing to go over it again. and perhaps again. Because when we are trying to reconcile the real goal is to restore trust, and trust once violated is very hard to recover. If you have lost someone trust, you can’t just say “sorry” and think they are going to trust you again. They need to hear you say in your own words how you understand how violated they feel and you need to put it in your own word how bad you feel for doing that to them, and you need to make it totally clear that you take 100% responsibility.

    I once had a fellow CC pastor sin against me. I confronted him, and he owned it, and confessed that he was in idiot for doing what he did. He called me a week later and told me how much it still bothered him that he sinned against me and asked a second time for me to forgive him. Then the next time I saw him he came up and went over every detail and told me how he would feel if someone did that to him and that he couldn’t believe I was really able to forgive him for doing such a horrible thing to me. I then told him that I not only forgive him, but I count him as someone I can trust completely. And that is how you restore a damaged relationship. He didn’t have to ask the second time for forgiveness, I had forgiven him, but every time he would brutally beat himself up in his own word for what he did to me, it restored my trust in in little by little. The last time he brought it up, I took him by the shoulders and looked him in the eyes and called him friend. I said I count you a life time friend and I not only forgive you, but I now trust you completely and I told him that I had more confidence in him be faithful to our friendship that I did the rest of the pastors who were at that conference. And I told him it was time, we can both move on. In my book it is as if it never happened, except that I will always remember the extent he was willing to go to, which made me understand that I was important to him and that what I was taking out of all of this was a life time friend, and I asked him to honor me by believing me that it’s over.

  23. Is the number of pastors who post here diminishing in numbers? Just wonderin’

  24. I think so…

  25. maybe more wounded will start sharing again

  26. Does one have to be wounded to be a part of the PP community?

  27. No…and I think we make a huge mistake when we think we can either have pastors or wounded, but not both.

  28. I agree Michael — i am just in a bitter sarcastic state of mind right now. sorry

  29. DMW

    We love you any way…that’s no bull. You’re part of the DNA of the PP. Done too much good for a lot of folks

  30. the pastors who are left are wounded.

  31. I am a wounded soldier
    But I will not leave the fight
    Because the Great Physician
    Is healing me
    So I’m standing in the battle
    In the armour of His light
    Because His mighty power
    Is real in me

    I am loved (I am loved)
    I am accepted (I am accepted)
    By the Saviour of my soul (Saviour of my soul)
    I am loved (I am loved)
    I am accepted (I am accepted)
    And my wounds will be made whole

  32. …sang this song many times…never knew who wrote it…found out on youtube…can’t help but smile at his enthusiasm…

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GpRRJ-ea_uQ

  33. DearWoundedBrother(DMW), you are too hard on yourself. You give us courage to think for ourselves. There is some truth in what you said, wondered,….you see things…uggg….I know what I am trying to say…my hands just don’t know how to type it 😳 don’t ever stop talking…musing…wondering…thinking out loud…whatever you want to call it…….you minister to many…you minister way more than you can imagine…

  34. The “both” is good…good reminders for the “pastors” to not add to the “wounded”…and good reminders for the “wounded” that not all “pastors” are big lying abusive jerks who should be on the other side of the pulpit.

  35. Heavenly Father, You have not forgotten Your wounded soldiers, have You? Are they not engraved on the palm of Your hand? You have said You could never forget Your children, I know You have not forgotten them. Father, don’t forget them….the enemy is so loud at times that it feels they have been forgotten… Let Your blessings wash over them in greater number than the trials that threaten to drown them….Lift them up Father as only You can. Comfort them with the sound of Your voice….let Your still small voice be louder in their ear than the screeching, roar of the enemy.

  36. Bible Study ToolsBible VersionsESVPsalm 25
    Psalm 25 (English Standard Version)

    Teach Me Your Paths
    1 To you, O LORD, I lift up my soul. 2 O my God, in you I trust; let me not be put to shame; let not my enemies exult over me. 3 Indeed, none who wait for you shall be put to shame; they shall be ashamed who are wantonly treacherous. 4 Make me to know your ways, O LORD; teach me your paths. 5 Lead me in your truth and teach me, for you are the God of my salvation; for you I wait all the day long. 6 Remember your mercy, O LORD, and your steadfast love, for they have been from of old. 7 Remember not the sins of my youth or my transgressions; according to your steadfast love remember me, for the sake of your goodness, O LORD! 8 Good and upright is the LORD; therefore he instructs sinners in the way. 9 He leads the humble in what is right, and teaches the humble his way. 10 All the paths of the LORD are steadfast love and faithfulness, for those who keep his covenant and his testimonies. 11 For your name’s sake, O LORD, pardon my guilt, for it is great. 12 Who is the man who fears the LORD? Him will he instruct in the way that he should choose. 13 His soul shall abide in well-being, and his offspring shall inherit the land. 14 The friendship of the LORD is for those who fear him, and he makes known to them his covenant. 15 My eyes are ever toward the LORD, for he will pluck my feet out of the net. 16 Turn to me and be gracious to me, for I am lonely and afflicted. 17 The troubles of my heart are enlarged; bring me out of my distresses. 18 Consider my affliction and my trouble, and forgive all my sins. 19 Consider how many are my foes, and with what violent hatred they hate me. 20 Oh, guard my soul, and deliver me! Let me not be put to shame, for I take refuge in you. 21 May integrity and uprightness preserve me, for I wait for you. 22 Redeem Israel, O God, out of all his troubles.

  37. Remember Your mercy Lord, and Your steadfast love, for the sake of Your goodness o Lord, let Your worriers not be put to shame, let not the enemy triumph over them…let them not be put to shame…guard their soul and deliver them. They take refuge in You, they wait for You…remember mercy Father…..

  38. Believe,”not all “pastors” are big lying abusive jerks who should be on the other side of the pulpit.”

    read that and just have to comment – i wondered if you know how much grace you’ve expressed in that statement (you left the hell and damnation up to God)…
    praying that those in the Church who fit the above description will have their eyes opened in repentance and will go sit down “on the other side of the pulpit” as they, like most of us Believers, don’t belong up front leading the flocks
    All pastors posting here excepted as far as i can see… 😉

  39. Dusty, amen to all your comments above – thank You, Lord for speaking truth and grace thru this sister

  40. ‘comments’ wasn’t the correct term for Dusty’s prayers and posts

  41. Not all pastors who post here are wounded. Many are here to try and help the wounded. If there was a wounded pastor here who has left it may be he is no longer here because he found help and strength here. Some may have left because though many of the names of those who post here change, often the issues don’t. Others may have left simply because their ministry here is through and they’re needed in other areas.

    And concerning abusive pastors, certainly there are those pastors who abuse their power but I wonder if it is as many as we may think. If I were a first timer here and reading some of the posts, I may tend to believe that all pastors are power hungry, driven abusive beasts who have little to do with the word of God and know nothing of submission. But more and more as I interact with pastors I see they have good hearts, and are ware of their short comings, are afraid, and seek God desperately to find his will and to make difficult decisions involving the direction of the ministry and the people they serve.

    And when to comes to leading God’s people all pastors or leaders for that matter, have a bulls-eye painted on their chest. When he makes a prayerful, careful decision, with the help of his leadership and the leading of the HS, if the decision a pastor makes goes against the wishes and desires of someone, and the direction they think things should go, that someone usually ends up wounded. Especially if they, like the pastor have invested time and energy in the church family

    No one wants that; and no pastor I know wants to intentionally hurt another person. We wish every decision never hurt anyone but it’s unavoidable. And we grieve with every decision made that injures some one. But it just goes with the territory.

    Certainly we need to be sensitive to all people and be aware that we like any one have this sin thing we have to constantly deal with, but just because some one got hurt doesn’t necessarily mean a pastor was abusive in their exercise of authority

    I say this because a lot of wounded peeps are here. Thank God. But I hope we don’t get into a mindset that all pastors are bad or suspect and the only good pastor is the one who posts here on the PP. There are a lot of good pastors out there and they deserve the risk of your prayers and support

  42. Steve H, but you do “know” some of these types of Pastors.

    I know you know…and the more information I receive, the more my eyes are being opened to just how big a problem Shiloh and the Dove have systemically.

  43. Steve

    From the days when you were known as Sola I have believe that you are a good pastor and a man of integrity.

  44. Believe,

    You need to be careful to guard your heart against bitterness.

    It is too easy to become cynical and jaded when you don’t see justice done.

    It becomes easy to judge peoples motives.

    I’ve encouraged you before to not give up and be patient, but maybe that was me just shooting from the lip.

    Perhaps you need to give it up.

    I finally got to a point where I had to just let go, I was becoming tainted.

    Then God worked it out, truth came out, I was apologized to and all without my help.
    (of course it took a little over 10 years)

    I don’t know what you should do, other than protect your heart and don’t view all pastors the way you view your step-dad.
    That too is not fair.
    Blessings

  45. I may have mis-read…but want to clarify ….not all of the pastors who came here were here to minister….and not all who came to minister were here to minister to the wounded…

    you know…let me rephrase that…not all of the people who came here were here to minister…and not all who came here to minister were here to minister to the wounded…

  46. Steve said, “If I were a first timer here and reading some of the posts, I may tend to believe that all pastors are power hungry, driven abusive beasts who have little to do with the word of God and know nothing of submission.”

    who is saying that? I think I missed something.

  47. ooohhhhh ……Nancy! AEA said BITTER. 😉

  48. oops…seems I have walked into a conversation….sorry guys…

    Believe, it seems you are in much pain….I am sorry. I was joking about AEA saying the word Bitter, but AEA is a good guy and is speaking a tender caution to you….not accusatory, just something to be mindful of and for you to guard your heart…

  49. First, let me say that I’m not accusing Steve H of anything…other than maybe being naive and erring too much on the side of grace (IMO) on accountability issues within CC.

    Another point of disagreement is the “Bitter” tag when someone expresses themselves consistently and frankly with regards to these pastoral abuse issues (that are more rampant within CC than many know…or are willing to admit).

    Was Jesus “Bitter” in the Temple with the money changers? I don’t believe so. He kicked some Biblical Donkey.

    There is “Bitter” and then there is calling BS.

    Steve H may be a good guy, I don’t know. Many on the PP know him and say he is…so that’s says a lot. His buddy Bryson is not a good guy…that I do know (now).

    I don’t accept the “Bitter” tag…it’s a smoke screen to sit back and not touch “God’s anointed”.

    Who is to say I am not one of “God’s anointed” and that others are bitter about hearing the truth about some of their fellow pastors who hang the Dove on their building and were spawned out of Shiloh?

    I am not bitter by nature…a lot of other things…but not bitter. So save that one for someone else. I am compelled and focused.

  50. believe, did you see my post? I promise, AEA is not ‘tagging’ you…really….I don’t defend the bitter pill…I just know AEA is only speaking from his heart out of love.

  51. Dusty…I understand…I’m not attacking AEA…and I don’t believe the person is attacking me…nor Steve H. I’m just expressing myself and saying “no, I don’t agree that I am bitter…I’ve examined my heart…and it is not bitterness. It is the other things I’ve mentioned being misdiagnosed as bitterness.”

    I give AEA (and others) the benefit of the doubt…that they are sincerely concerned for me (Erunner is another)…and think bitterness is eating me up. It’s not bitterness eating me up…it’s a compulsion for justice and a submission to what I believe is God’s will.

    Everyone is entitled to their own opinions. I know “me”…and I make observations about others…from what I read and from what I learn about them…as others do about “me”.

    It’s all valid and I’m a big boy. You don’t get beat down physically and emotionally your whole life by the people that are supposed to love you and protect you and not come out of it with some thick skin. Doesn’t mean I hold it in without expressing myself.

    When I’m convicted (and I have been on here many times by the Holy Spirit) about something…I’m quick to cop to it. That’s the way (I try) to live. I know when I’m guilty of something. I have a highly sensitive conscience. When I’m wrong, I’m wrong. I have no qualms about fessing up and taking my lumps…as humiliating as it can be and as painful as it is (not on here…this is lightweight stuff to what I’ve faced down).

    This whole “Elephant in the Room” issue (CC) on the PP is just not one of the things I am convicted about (in terms of being in sin). There are many wounded on here for a reason…it’s bad fruit from a Movement Tree that has major issues.

    There are SERIOUS issues within Shiloh and CC. There are issues that need to be discussed and dealt with on a very very broad level. I’m praying that God will continue to open those doors and that He will come in and do some cleansing.

    It really is God’s church…not man’s…and if He decides to bring some justice and accountability…guess what…it’s gonna happen.

  52. Believe,
    Please don’t miss my point.

    For one thing I don’t buy into the “don’t touch God’s anointed” that line was used on me also.

    My caution was for your heart.

    I campaigned to set thing rignt, to protect present and future victims and it seemed that things just continued to get worse.

    I was becoming preoccupied with the injustice and becoming embittered by it.
    I was crying out with Asaph in Psalm 73, “Why do the wicked prosper?”
    I don’t get it, I still don’t.
    I was becoming suspicious and second guessing motives of Chuck Smith, and any of the pastors that were loyal to him.

    I came to a place after a long period of time realizing that I had left my first love in my endeavors to protect others.

    My caution to you was not to protect an abusive pastor, but for you to protect your heart.

    I would spare you of the place I went. I would spare your loved ones of seeing you go there.

  53. Thanks for your word of confidence Dusty.

    Believe, if I had read your last post I probably wouldn’t have posted mine.

    I’m home and have a slow connection, and now chores are calling.

    You’ll survive this Believe, I would just like to see as few as scars as possible,

    Blessings

  54. Here’s the problem…Shiloh no longer exists and Calvary Chapel has no central authority…just a 1000 different guys with an affiliation.

    That makes it almost impossible to effect any sort of change in a sweeping manner.

    To broad brush the “movement” (that actually doesn’t exist anymore either) just alienates the majority of guys who may be able to affect a local issue.

    There are no easy answers…maybe no answers at all other than to shine the light on specific abusive situations and hope that those congregations take action.

    That’s discouraging…but that’s reality.

  55. Thanks AEA…the scars couldn’t get any worse…I lost my mom over all this…even though it wasn’t my sin…and I know she is in an abusive relationship.

    You can’t lose anything…if you have nothing to lose.

  56. believe said, “You don’t get beat down physically and emotionally your whole life by the people that are supposed to love you and protect you and not come out of it with some thick skin.”

    sometime you don’t…I didn’t come out with thick skin…very thin and very sensitive skin is what I ended up with.

    I was not sure if you had much interaction with AEA and did not know how you would ‘read’ the bitter comment. As a rule I so don’t like the bitter cop-out comments, but I know AEA does not use it as such.

  57. believe said, “This whole “Elephant in the Room” issue (CC) on the PP is just not one of the things I am convicted about ”

    I am not sure what you mean by Elephant in the Room

  58. Believe, don’t say that….things could always get worse…

    I will join you in prayer for your mom’s safety, also for your relationship with her to be restored.

  59. remembering when my wounds were as raw a Believe’s are.

  60. Shiloh may not exist as an entity anymore…but its “fruit” sure does…and a lot of the guys are in CC.

    Dusty, what I mean by the “Elephant in the Room” is that CC, at its core, is cultish and that’s why a lot of problems have and are occurring…but I understand the wisdom in influencing people delicately and not throwing out the Baby with the Dirty Bathwater.

  61. I don’t think CC is cultish at its core but I do think that Moses style of church leadership definitely lends itself to abuse. And I think individual fellowships can be very cultish, depending on how seriously the pastor takes himself. But cults are based on false doctrine and CC is pretty middle-of-the-road Evangelical. Now I personally think they have some false doctrines (no surprise there) but nothing that would put them outside the Evangelical mainstream.

  62. X…when the whole story unfolds over time…you may reconsider your opinion. My views have changed over time…as the information I have has changed.

    An issue I am reconsidering is the non-denomination denomination dynamic…

    I have good friends in CC…guys I really admire and know are good men and women in leadership positions…

    However, as time goes on and more and more information comes out…at what point are you responsible as an individual pastor for being a part of the “Movement”?

    Plausible deniability is not a responsible position to take, IMO.

    There comes a point where one must say, I sign on with all the stuff, or I don’t sign on with it…but that comes at a personal cost…and involves a decision: compromise or integrity. Trust in God…or trust in the financial stability of a Brand.

    The more I learn about the Movement…the more I understand how my personal situation has happened and is happening.

  63. cults are not always wrong in their doctrine. I have had to deal with two in Elsinore that were full blown mind control cults. But there was no doctrine you could put your finger on and say it was out of line.

    Only Christians call mormons a cult. And Christians can be fooled and pulled into cults that don’t teach false doctrine.. it’s not that easy to define just what a cult is

    In the world it has to do with how the people are treated not the teaching. They will look at you like you are nuts if you tell them the Mormons are a cult. To them the term cult means Jim jones or David K — etc

    One that tried to set up headquarters in Elsinore was The Bible Speaks — that one was interesting. once Walter Martin got hold of what they called Body Teaching, which was limited to those who lived on the property he rightly called them a cult. What was different then was the West Coast leader repented and submitted to the local churches to help him bring healing to those who were out here. Eventually his goal was to get all of the members of that cult attending local churches and our local churches all pitched in and helped the guy. He had courage and he saved a lot of souls from further wounding..

    The other one I won’t mention. But I play a role in exposing them both for what they were. And their doctrine sounded solid — so like I say it is complicated and not that easy to say when a group crosses the line to be a full blown cult.

  64. I’ve always thought the guidelines below were very good ones.

    It can happan anywhere — Lutheran, Orthodox, nondenom. But I think any situation where there’s no two-way accountability and a lack of checks and balances is fraught with danger.

    Potentially unsafe groups or leaders “come off very nice at first, they go for vulnerable people who are looking for answers, lonely, what you’d call ‘normal people.’ They’re very good at what they do and can get people to believe anything. You might think you’d never get taken in, but don’t bet on it. ”
    — Margaret Singer, Ph.D.

    Ten warning signs of a potentially unsafe group/leader.

    Absolute authoritarianism without meaningful accountability.

    No tolerance for questions or critical inquiry.

    No meaningful financial disclosure regarding budget, expenses such as an independently audited financial statement.

    Unreasonable fear about the outside world, such as impending catastrophe, evil conspiracies and persecutions.

    There is no legitimate reason to leave, former followers are always wrong in leaving, negative or even evil.

    Former members often relate the same stories of abuse and reflect a similar pattern of grievances.

    There are records, books, news articles, or television programs that document the abuses of the group/leader.

    Followers feel they can never be “good enough”.

    The group/leader is always right.

    The group/leader is the exclusive means of knowing “truth” or receiving validation, no other process of discovery is really acceptable or credible.

    Ten warning signs regarding people involved in/with a potentially unsafe group/leader.

    Extreme obsessiveness regarding the group/leader resulting in the exclusion of almost every practical consideration.

    Individual identity, the group, the leader and/or God as distinct and separate categories of existence become increasingly blurred. Instead, in the follower’s mind these identities become substantially and increasingly fused–as that person’s involvement with the group/leader continues and deepens.

    Whenever the group/leader is criticized or questioned it is characterized as “persecution”.

    Uncharacteristically stilted and seemingly programmed conversation and mannerisms, cloning of the group/leader in personal behavior.

    Dependency upon the group/leader for problem solving, solutions, and definitions without meaningful reflective thought. A seeming inability to think independently or analyze situations without group/leader involvement.

    Hyperactivity centered on the group/leader agenda, which seems to supercede any personal goals or individual interests.

    A dramatic loss of spontaneity and sense of humor.

    Increasing isolation from family and old friends unless they demonstrate an interest in the group/leader.

    Anything the group/leader does can be justified no matter how harsh or harmful.

    Former followers are at best-considered negative or worse evil and under bad influences. They can not be trusted and personal contact is avoided.

    Ten signs of a safe group/leader.

    A safe group/leader will answer your questions without becoming judgmental and punitive.

    A safe group/leader will disclose information such as finances and often offer an independently audited financial statement regarding budget and expenses. Safe groups and leaders will tell you more than you want to know.

    A safe group/leader is often democratic, sharing decision making and encouraging accountability and oversight.
    A safe group/leader may have disgruntled former followers, but will not vilify, excommunicate and forbid others from associating with them.
    A safe group/leader will not have a paper trail of overwhelmingly negative records, books, articles and statements about them.

    A safe group/leader will encourage family communication, community interaction and existing friendships and not feel threatened.

    A safe group/leader will recognize reasonable boundaries and limitations when dealing with others.

    A safe group/leader will encourage critical thinking, individual autonomy and feelings of self-esteem.

    A safe group/leader will admit failings and mistakes and accept constructive criticism and advice.

    A safe group/leader will not be the only source of knowledge and learning excluding everyone else, but value dialogue and the free exchange of ideas.

    Don’t be naïve, develop a good BS Detector.

    http://www.rickross.com/warningsigns.html

  65. Believe, I’ve seen a lot, bleeve me. (Some of it was seen in my own mirror.)

    Well, I guess there’s different definitions of “cult.” I was always taught that a cult was a group that was centered around the teaching of one leader and ended up denying the deity of Christ. (I think that was Walter Martin’s definition.)

  66. I think I prefer to use the word “cult” to characterize groups that have non-Trinitarian theology and use the word “abusive” to describe… well, abusive churches. Maybe this is an out-of-date definition that I’m wanting to keep.

  67. After reading Lutheran’s post…my BS meter (regarding my step-dad and CCV) is in the red zone…about to explode.

    My head was nodding “yes” “yep” “yes” “yep” like a Todd Bentley bobble-head doll…

    And, there are many more than just him…

  68. I’m stepping in here…it is not appropriate to refer to CC as a cult.

    There are some CC’s with cultish tendencies, which is an entirely different thing.

    I realize nobodys listening here, but frustrations will compound when you really do discover that there is no monolithic CC, no central authority, no nothing to hang a label on.

    It is exactly how I already spoke.

    You have to deal with each situation as a separate entity…because that’s exactly what they are.

    These are not problems unique to CC either…the Southern Baptists and other semi- autonomous churches have the same issues and more.

  69. “That makes it almost impossible to effect any sort of change in a sweeping manner.”

    Almost…but not entirely.

  70. Michael

    Thanks for your 2:05. You are correct. CC as a whole is not a cult. There may be some within the movement who attract a cult-like following but no more than the SBC or Acts 29, or those who love Tony Evans or Johnny Mac, or even Piper. It’s just too easy to play loosy goosey with the term. If this were a basketball game, that comment would be a technical foul. It is irresponsible to apply the term cult to the CC movement. You must examine each church individually to see of it applies

  71. The term I used was “cultish”.

    CC Hanford…not cultish. Some others…cultish…and not just CCV.

    If that’s a technical foul…then guilty. Hope you don’t miss the free throw 🙂

  72. Believe

    I never miss! 🙂 BTW no offense taken on anything you’ve said but I do want to clarify that I was young, alive and very much around in the Shiloh and Jesus movement days and if I am not mistaken, you weren’t born until some time after about 1975 so I don’t think the term naive is a good one to use in reference to me. Also I am very much aware of the problems within our movement and have worked in my church as have many in my to not duplicate those problems (we have our own!). I don’t think I could exist as a CC pastor in So Cal. Too much pressure and as I have said before, I am not charismatic enough and my sinful nature would get in the way

    Also, while I may not agree with everything George Bryson has to say on theology, I vouch that he is a good man and I am honored to call him a fellow worker. Just as I probably would you

  73. What would I google to find Shiloh? – I can’t find a reference that looks like anything discussed above. I don’t really know what it is. Was it just a Christian version of the Bhagwan Rashneesh??

  74. MLD

    You might google John Higgins, or Ken Ortize or Shiloh Ranch Dexter, Oregon. They had their head quaters and and main living quarters there. They lived communally, worked together planting trees and the like but I certainly wouldn’t compare them to Rajheesh Puram. That would be yet another unfair uncharacterization. The Rajneeshies tried to take over a town and resorted to criminal activity something that Shiloh never did. Shilohs’ problems revolved idealism and a lack of leadership but they did nothing like the Rajneeshies

  75. Steve H…glad to hear I didn’t offend you.

    I need to be reminded that we choose the words we communicate with…and the tone and word usage can express a spirit of bitterness…and that is not my intent.

    I do get riled up…IMO, I call it righteously angry…”Be angry, but sin not”.

    I was born in ’71…and I lived on “the Land” and visited their regularly as a kid. My mom was courted by John Higgins and Bob. She’s so darn pretty…I really miss her.

    We lived, pre-Bob, in Eugene and on “the Land”…and post-Bob, in Eugene. I was in and out of Shiloh from about ’74-’77, I believe, before Bob packed us up for Visalia. I’d ask my mom for details…but she won’t talk to me (thanks to Bob).

    After your last post…I hope it is that you are naive…and really don’t know all there is to know about Shiloh and your buddy Bryson…and Bob for that matter.

    I really hope you don’t share the same warped views they do (and I’m not talking about anti-Calvinism).

    I don’t want to drag you back into a discussion about this…I am just hoping that you are naive about certain things…and that you will be in prayer about all of this…and that you’ll reflect and make wise decisions when you are presented with (what is hopefully) new information.

  76. B
    In the way you defined “naive” I guess I am. Concerning the decisions I make, I am a fly spec on the CC map. Only a few know who I am…not that big of a church…not a mover and a shaker in the movement or any movement for that matter…not really a part of the culture. Sometimes my ego gets hurt but being an affiliate at least lets people know what they can expect (teaching and good worship). But overall I also enjoy autonomy. And I think I capture the heart and soul of the early days of the movement.

    I am not sure I know you your father is…To my knowledge I’ve never met him. I am sure if I saw a picture of him, I would say “O I know who he is” but by name, I don’t know him. Sorry

  77. It would help if we had an agreed upon definition of what a cult is. Every group is a cult to somebody. All of Christianity is a cult to some. Is a cult only a cult if it has a combination of lifestyle and belief system that is wrong, or can a group be a cult without taking into account their belief system if their behavior is bad enough. What if their form of government is abusive but the rest of their belief system is OK???

    I’m really asking does anyone have a working definition of what a cult is that we all could say amen to?

    Or would it be best if we just kind of ban the use of the word because for our purpose and aim here is not to determine if a group is ot is not a cult but we only deal with individual pastors or churches that are abusive ??

    I kind of think that Michael ought to just ban the use of the word Cult from and come up with a statement somewhere so we don’t have to even deal with the word. I know for a fact that how Christians use the word in not what the world around us thinks a cult is. and I kind of doubt we could come up with a working definition that we all would agree with so it would be best to simply say it is not part of our purpose to determine if any group is or is not a cult, and in fact to call any group a cult is counterproductive to our purpose which is to bring integrity and accountability in all Churches.

  78. DMW, I agree that the word “cultish” is polarizing and loaded…and maybe not the wisest word to use here (for now).

    There are CC guys that probably get stumbled and take offense (and I understand) when they hear that word being used…because they aren’t the things we’ve seen and experienced.

    The word does draw needed attention to some serious issues, however.

    I’m hopeful, that as you say, we can continue a discussion that is edifying and brings correction, where needed, for the benefit of the Body of Christ (which includes all of us).

  79. I have heard from several people who have moved from our area and started to go to the local CC in other states. They know nothing about PP or even that I have issues with CC. To them I was just their pastor and someone to turn to to ask advice. IF something didn’t seem right in the CC they found they contacted me to ask if it sounded right to me. In the last few years there are 5 cases of people from my little church that moved out of state, and have found the CC they are now going to to be very troubling. Considering the small number of people I know who have moved and found a CC near enough to attend I find it alarming. Many, not all, of the new CC pastors are very influenced by the CC distinctives. CCOF has more or less disbanded any attempt or set up local help for these new pastors so they are on their own with the little pamphlet in one hand and a Bible in the other ready to turn the world upside down. I have a couple of new situations with NEW CC pastors who are just starting out. Both are by the book pastors — (That is by The CC distinctives book), and in both situations they are people I know and love that are attending these churches and pastors are showing all the signs of turning into control freak heavy handed pastors in the making. I am not worried about the two couples who are attending these two different churches I’ve been hearing from, they both attended CCLE long enough to not put up with any abuse. But I don’t see any indicators that thngs are getting better. I think if things continue to go in its current direction it is going to get worse. Good men, who would otherwise be good pastors can be misdirected a step at a time. As problems arise, and they will, if the only source of guidance they have to turn to is in those books, it will turn good pastors bad.

    This problem is far from over. The line of victims in the future in my opinion is going to get longer.

    Here is my concern. Please re-read the Philosophy of Ministry and the CC distinctives and then put yourself in the shoes of a young pastor starting off on his own somewhere far from his home church. If he is turning to those books for his main source of guidance he will be led down a path that will lead him into being a heavy handed if not an abusive pastor. The future CCs are a real concern to me.

  80. DMW said, “This problem is far from over. The line of victims in the future in my opinion is going to get longer. ”

    I knew it….I also think the list is already longer than we know.

  81. I started a discussion of this over on the City of Refuge on the .com…

  82. Me thinks the constant flow of negative info toward CC has become a burden to big for many who used to post hear to bear. We are aware of the abuses of power, and the anti intellectualism etc., but are powerless to do anything about it. We have instead made adjustments in our own fellowships. That’s all we can do. Speaking for myself I am weary of always having the dirt of CC rubbed in my face. I can’t answer for Bob, or any one else I think I speak for all the guys when I say we have tried to demonstrate that not all CC pastors are abusive kingdom builders. But it seems we take two steps forward but three back. We’re tired and just leave it to you guys to figure out

  83. The Bob Grenier thing has gotten so nasty it has chased some who post here away…weary of offering excuses and having the sins of CC ever before us.

    We “the good” CC pastors need a break from this type of dialogue if we are going to continue here. Michael it may be time to call for a moratorium on the CC Visalia thing. We are all aware of the problem and saddened by it but what more needs to be said? I dunno

  84. Looks like this blog is winding down as far as discussion goes with the .com up and going again.

    FWIW I agree there are CC’s that are cultish in how leadership is set up. When I hear the word cult I automatically think of organizations who are built up around a person or person’s extra biblical ideas that diminish the person of Jesus to a place of not being God in the flesh and second person of the trinity. Maybe that’s from reading and listening to a lot of Walter Martin back in the day.

    I imagine there are people who see any stripe of Christian as being part of a cult in the sense we are blind followers of a myth and a god who does not exist. I see that idea continuing to grow as we refuse to deny the basics of our faith which puts them outside of those who the Bible declares as being born again. Even that term will send some folks over the edge.

    Michael mentioned that CC is a group of independently operated churches which I would agree with and why I am saddened if good men like Steve Hopkins and others feel they are no longer welcome to be a part of the community we have been a part of for several years.

    I read what DMW shares and it’s heartbreaking to know there are people who are walking into what they thought would be a safe and nourishing church setting only to have their hopes dashed. I become angry when I hear of good people being hurt especially when it’s in a place or from a person who is supposed to be the love of God extended to them. It’s mainly for that reason I began my blog. Christians being wounded by other Christians even to the point that it impacts their ability to live a peaceful life or has driven them away from church.

    I came to a personal conclusion years ago that change can happen but it may not happen on a broad scale. Instead it will happen one pastor at a time and one church at a time. Once that begins to happen and lasting fruit is evident people will take notice and at some point God may surprise us all. I still hold to that even after four or five years.

    What do we do with men who continue to be a part of the CC movement? How do we interact with and judge them? The same might be asked of those who sit in CC’s each week who are aware of abuses in other CC’s in the nation?

    We also need to ask ourselves how we respond to abusive leaders and even other leaders who sit on their boards while all hell is breaking loose around these churches. The last thing any of us want is to see innocent people hurt. That’s what drew me into this conversation. I came close to listing CCV as a resource for readers of my blog having no knowledge of the truth. What I can do personally is to do my best to be a force for good in people’s lives while doing my best to steer them away from any potential harm.

    We live in such upside down times. It’s a shame when that garbage creeps into the church.

    I think it would be a shame if we did anything less than embrace them like anyone else.

  85. E
    For what it’s worth, I’ve tried to back away from PP before (usually because I got angry at something) but I have no plans of leaving. I feel I have much to learn here and, hopefully contribute. But I think I speak for others who are just weary of the continued dialogue about CCV. I certainly understand there are some hurt feelings here by people. But as I’ve said, the info is out there and I think we all know there is a problem. And I hope the kids and family can work things out. They are in our prayers. I just wonder what more needs to be said about te matter that hasn’t already been said. And certainly, as has been demonstrated, the situation at CCV may be similar to some, but certainly not indicative of all CC’s.

    I just think the guys are weary of it all. We won’t leave but I think some of the guys will back away because there is nothing we can say. My hope is they don’t become discouraged in it all.

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