Jun 242013
 

thinking-pic1. Those religious leaders who are more worried about financial liability than accountability before God are in danger of gaining the world and losing their souls. The church is commanded to value people over mammon.

 

 

2. A man with a family decides to walk across the Grand Canyon on a wire without a safety harness or a net and thinks God is in it. You bet.

3. So now the great American couch potato sport is to watch programs where there is a high probability of someone dying. Soon, we’ll rebuild the Coliseum.

4. Ergun Caner is now suing a blogger for exposing his documented lies. The legal system is now the tool of choice for deep pocketed religious scoundrels to create refuge in. The power of money is the one thing the internet can’t negate.

5. I’m still not sure whether a pastor who falls into “moral failure” should ever go back into vocational ministry.

6. I have many pictures of Crater Lake…but none even come close to capturing the immenseness and depth and sheer grandeur of the place. Pictures are just tiny representations of what it is. So it is with what we see of people on blogs. Words on a monitor fail to capture much of the person that wrote them, but we act as if they do. In fact, we too easily forget there are persons behind the words at all.

7. From the information given by his daughter, I can easily extrapolate from my own experience how very ill Chuck Smith is. I’ve had the surgery they are planning for him…and it’s not an easy road ahead. Despite all of the profound issues I have with Smith, my heart and prayers go out to him and his family as they go through the shadow.

8. Religious giving is down while other charitable contributions are growing. Why?

9. “So if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you,leave your gift there before the altar and go. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift.”(Matthew 5:23–24 ESV)

When we are satisfied with marking and exposing without reconciling, we have lost the heart and purpose of God .

10. The most difficult thing I think about is how to hold on to what I believe are biblical truths while having great empathy with people who believe those truths persecute them.

  196 Responses to “Things I Think”

  1. Number 2….I thought the exact same thing….but then had to stop myself. The Lord has called people to do stranger things than this. I’m always talking about not putting God in a box, so I guess I don’t want to start with one the size of the Grand Canyon. (but I hear what you are saying!)

  2. Number 10….Amen!

  3. Nonnie,

    Your thoughts on #2 were probably far more charitable than mine. 😉

  4. I’m just nit-picking here and this is not at all a criticism of your concern for Pastor Chuck, which I share but what does this very common phrase actually mean?

    >> my heart and prayers go out to him and his family<<<

    I hear this all the time. How do prayers go out to a family? If we are going to pray for them, why not just say so?

    Again, not faulting you Michael for your gracious post about Pastor Chuck. I feel certain that you mean you will be praying for the Smith family. But don't you think this is a curious phrase, which on the lips of TV newscasters and politicians has more to do with civic religion than with Christianity?

    Again, no criticism is directed to you, Michael.

  5. Can the blogger in number 4 just post the “script” of what Caner said? That should make it clear enough if he was lying or not.

  6. Xenia,

    You’re right and it’s a cliche that has probably lost any real meaning through vain repetition.
    Point well taken.

  7. Nonnie,

    I may do an article on this…the videos were up for a long time and many bloggers have detailed the lies.
    I may also shoot Smathers an email and request just that sort of a point by point layout.

  8. ” I’m still not sure whether a pastor who falls into “moral failure” should ever go back into vocational ministry.”

    It is all too common for pastors who have committed adultery to return to pastoral ministry I don’t think most of them should. They have violated the trust that was given them, and have demonstrated poor stewardship. The pastors that I know personally that have committed adultery and returned to the pastorate are all abusive, controlling, and manipulating people in their current churches. Seems the exchanged the idol of sex for the idol of power, which in reality, many affairs are about power rather than sex.

  9. If the phrase has lost any real meaning, what was the real meaning? I don’t understand what the phrase is actually trying to say. We pray to God, we don’t send prayers out to families. We send prayers out *for* families.

    Again, just nit-picking, but every time I hear this phrase (mostly on TV) I wonder what it could possibly mean, as stated.

  10. The Smith issue is difficult in that so little planning has gone on to secure the future of his church and his denomination. That pesky rapture has not taken place which was supposed to solve all future challenges. So, a future remains to be carved out by the players who survive the passing of Pastor Chuck. It will be interesting to watch.

  11. Ixtlan,

    Like so many other issues when we’re dealing with real people, it’s hard to set this one in stone.
    However, I think you have spoken eloquently to what I’ve seen as well…

  12. Michael, I think that good article. Point by point of what he allegedly lied about. I have had several friend speak excitedly about he and his brother and all the “secrets and insights” they know about Islam and terrorism and since they spoke at CCCM, they must be legit.

  13. FF,
    I think it’s very difficult for people to grasp the fact that Smith actually believed so strongly that the Rapture would happen in his lifetime that he refused to entertain any succession plan.
    The result, (upon his personal Rapture) will be chaos.
    Fascinating from a historical point of view, not so much if you’re involved in the system.

  14. Nonnie,

    You just persuaded me… 🙂

  15. X,
    I think it has become a general phrase in our tradition much like the religionless “God Bless You” after a sneeze. It only has meaning if you mean it and I think Michael does. Good observation though. I’ve always liked how you think.

  16. FF,

    It is indeed a “religionless phrase”.
    Thankful that Xenia just made me a better writer…I won’t use that cliche again, nor should I.

  17. Sometimes “nit-picking” is a very good thing. Thank you, Xenia!

  18. Much like the Vineyard after the death of John Wimber, CC will divide along several lines. Who leads those “units” remain a mystery because the natural leaders are to busy with their own ministries to take on such “chaos.” It could and perhaps should fade into autonomy.

  19. and sometimes nit-picking is nit-picking….. expletive deleted.

  20. Ixtlan, please not that I purposely used the word “sometimes.”

    What Xenia said was in love and was appreciated. Her humble question/comment caused me to think and learn.

  21. Should have been “please NOTE…..”

  22. Well, I didn’t mean to offend anyone. I know Michael is sincere. I just wandered off into some wondering about a common phrase. Just mumbling to myself.

  23. FF,

    It’s a time in the life of this “movement” that will only be fully understood by historians in retrospect, many years from now.
    Not only will the organization splinter on the macro level, there will be big changes on the micro level.
    Many of the first pastors are nearing retirement and many opted out of social security because of the same belief in the Rapture.
    Some have done succession plans (Stipe and Ritchie come to mind) but many others have not.
    There will be a leadership void…and it may only be filled with autonomy.

  24. I know a CC pastor who many years ago, at the height of the Rapture enthusiasms, encouraged the men of his church to get vasectomies so they wouldn’t be encumbered with children and could get down to ministry work in preparation for the Rapture.

    Was this a common practice, back in the day?

  25. Xenia,

    There were a number of odd practices that were embraced by those who wanted to prove their fidelity to the movement and the doctrine of the Rapture.
    I don’t know how common they became, but that would make a great article.

  26. Xenia….your number 24….that is bizarre! I’d like to hear that tape. 🙂

  27. @24
    that’s funny. first I’ve heard of it.

  28. Nonnie, it wasn’t a tape. The wife of one of these men told me about it. She wasn’t too happy about it. Since this particular pastor wasn’t the kind of person who thought up ideas like this on his own I wondered if originated with CCCM.

    St. Paul did say, in anticipation of the 2nd coming that some were called to remain single, etc. It’s not completely off the wall.

  29. The safety valve for most pastor types in CC will be to retreat to their home churches where they are loved by the people they serve. The politics of judgement and shame were so predominant at this years senior pastors conference with the Bryson factor now followed by the demise of Chuck Smith, the functional leadership have left the building. That may be somewhat over stated but highly predictable.

  30. First of all, Caner is working the business which alone justifies what ever he does. At least that is what I have come to learn. I have watched the videos with him talking to the Marines and it truly disturbed and upset me. That is a moral failing on my part and I know that.

    1. One should always worry first and foremost about the financial issues. That should be number one, or even the only thing on the list.

    2-3 For number two, if it makes him money then that is what matters, if he falls someone will make money which is also fine. I am troubled that he will leave a family behind and other such nonsense. Again the moral failing is mine and it is disgusting.

  31. Frosted Flake,
    History teaches us that before authoritarian potentates pass on they usually designate a successor. It tends to minimize the titanic power struggles which can fracture their empires and send them into decline. One thing that Papa Chuck is not, is stupid; and I think he knows full well this principle and understands it.

  32. FF,

    Bryson will be one of the default leaders of one of the factions.
    Let me tell you why.
    He is the only one so far who has a coherent vision of what he believes CC should look like and how it should operate.
    The question isn’t whether it’s a vision one would share in or support, it’s the fact that it’s the only vision being offered.
    Sometimes clarity in intent wins by default.

  33. “St. Paul did say, in anticipation of the 2nd coming that some were called to remain single, etc. It’s not completely off the wall.”

    I see what you are saying here but I think there is a big difference between being called to be single and being married. The NT talks about godly men and women raising their children. I sympathise with that pastor’s wife. I’m wondering how they are doing now. I hope he came to his senses and loved his wife more than his end times eschatology.

  34. brian,

    You’re up early… 🙂
    I don’t find your “moral failures” disgusting, I share them.

  35. Muff,

    My view on this isn’t popular…but I believe Smith wants the movement to die with him.
    I believe the reasoning behind this is narcissistic, not altruistic.
    No, I can’t prove this, nor do I have anything on paper…but it’s a gut feeling based on behaviors exhibited.

  36. Michael,
    I see some truth in what you are saying because the loudest voices come from the currently unemployed self promoting screeches of Bryson and Paul Smith. They have way too much time on their hands and with “brutality” being a spiritual gift and all…………. Never mind.

  37. #5 🙁

    “It is all too common for pastors who have committed adultery to return to pastoral ministry I don’t think most of them should. They have violated the trust that was given them, and have demonstrated poor stewardship. The pastors that I know personally that have committed adultery and returned to the pastorate are all abusive, controlling, and manipulating people in their current churches. Seems the exchanged the idol of sex for the idol of power, which in reality, many affairs are about power rather than sex.”

    Glad you said “most”. 🙂

    I’m sure some have been waiting for me to reply.

    I struggled with this for years, even to the point of turning down offers to pastor again. It has been 23 years since my failure, and believe me my worst critic has been myself. While my hope continues to be that some pastor would allow allow me to come alone side of them in a supporting role, I do believe that God would not disapprove of my returning to a senior pastor position.

  38. Michael,
    You may very well be right. Sometimes our gut feelings are indeed the truth. I think we’ve all seen this pan-out in real life situations many times over.

  39. Bob,

    You’re the reason I can’t set this in stone.
    I would be very comfortable seeing you return to vocational ministry.

  40. Bob, I did think of you and can imagine how that hurt. Like you said, you have been your worst critic over the years. Our God is the God of the impossible and He has always used broken vessels. I believe your humble and contrite heart are what sets you apart from the many that Michael was referencing.

  41. There are always exceptions Bob. From my vantage point, too many who have returned to the senior slot essentially pick up where they left off. Nothing changes but their history.

    The individual Calvary Chapel pastors have a unique opportunity to pull themselves up by their boots straps or they can allow others to do their thinking and policy making for them. Its their call.

  42. Muff,
    I am one of the growing number who agree with Michael’s suspicion that a “die with the founder” philosophy is at work here. I also hope that Chuck has time left to change that. Indeed, he is not a stupid man, he has simply held on to the “rapture in my lifetime” hope to long. Perhaps it is time to rest.

  43. Bob,

    My apologies for any hurt that point caused you.
    I was recently presented with another scenario that made me think about the matter again.
    I think anybody who has been here any length of time supports you in any capacity that God places you in.

  44. Michael & Frosted, I really have to comment (again) on your infatuation with Bryson and your so-called insight on the inner-workings of CC. I was at the conference; there was no Bryson-factor nor was their shame and judgment of any kind. Bryson always wants to speak but very, very few ever attend or listen. He is a non-factor. Period. It was a very sterile conference because (my opinion) of the presence of the many, many young men who are not senior pastors. It is also silly to listen to a few rapture-fanatics (I am pre-trib and can’t wait for Him to come myself) who so badly botch Scripture that they forget to live as though Jesus were coming back by being good stewards of what has been entrusted to them up until the time of His return. I have been CC for 19 years and have heard only one pastor express the rapture as his reason for opting out of SS. Those who lose their balance in how they view Scripture make dumb mistakes. Could it be that you just want them/us to be that shallow? One final thing: Chuck hasn’t named a successor for the movement because he really believes the Holy Spirit will do so when he dies. It is not narcissism nor is it a death wish for the movement. The truth is, despite pressure now for many years to name a successor (and even doing so briefly only to regret it later and watch those men leave), Chuck just can’t imagine not working, not preaching. He really would prefer to die in the middle of a message! He just can’t let go of the work, not CC. It may be unwise but it is not to be attributed to any wrong motive. As muffpotter said, he is not stupid. He just wants to keep going. A lot of time we men live in denial of things like this. I know–I am one of them!

  45. FF,

    I think that we should be praying not only for Smith’s health issues, but that he take this time to examine and maybe correct some of the things such as this.
    One of the other factors at play here is that according to my best information, there isn’t going to be a lot of well known CC pastors wanting to fill that void.
    As you noted, many have very successful ministries on their own.

  46. fyi,

    Yours is a very charitable reading of the situation and one that is shared by many of the rank and file.
    I can truly understand the desire to hold such views.
    My observations are based on conversations I’ve had with people at the top of the CC food chain, who are called to deal with these matters now and in the future.
    You may reject them as you wish…history will show if I was correct or not.
    While you say Bryson is a “non-factor’, the reality is that George Bryson represents the views of Chuck Smith whether anyone chooses to believe that or not.

  47. Michael,

    I have never questioned your support. lxtlan (whatever that stands for!) I agree wholeheartedly with you!

    Just a bad morning dealing with the same old stuff that I have been dealing with at my last 3 jobs!!!! Guess I need to be more thick skinned.

  48. Bob,

    You are very loved and respected here…may your day meet up with our estimation of you.

  49. While I’m not sure who reads PP anymore, and it would probably be better for me to use a moniker, but I’ll be candid for a moment.

    I have served in 3 different CC’s. The same time I was offered a staff position at the first CC I was also given the opportunity of returning as a pastor to my former denomination. I said no to the opportunity. I said no because I felt I could serve the Lord better by being for a senior pastor someone that I wished I would have had during my 22 years as a pastor. I have made that offer at every CC that I have served. I told the pastor that this was not any attempt at status or power on my part. I just believed that my experience “in the trenches” would be of value. I apologize if that sounds prideful.

    They all have turned me down. While its true that I don’t have a CC pedigree, I do know what its like to feel discouraged, angry, tempted, etc. I do know what it feels like when you wish that you had someone to talk to who can understand. One of the pastors who turned me down left the ministry recently. He knew my story, and he knew that I was willing to meet him at any time and any place. I was deeply hurt when he did not give me a chance to talk with him. Could I have helped? I don’t know, but I guarantee I would have understood.

    I have been away from pastoral ministry for years. Maybe things have changed. Maybe pastors feel that they don’t need counsel. Maybe they are afraid to trust or be vulnerable.
    But I’ll keep trying. Maybe the next person will give me a shot.

  50. Bob,

    It’s their loss.
    I thank God every day that I have a pastor I can say anything to without fear of recrimination.
    It’s a gift that keeps me sane and helps me walk the straight and narrow.

  51. Bob,
    A young friend told me the other day that young pastors are attracted to honesty while the older ones not so much. The ministry can become such a facade with acting classes in session almost every day that the fear of someone finding out who you really are rules the day. I find “professional” pastors to be among the most dishonest people group I know. I am blessed to consider you a precious exception.

  52. “5. I’m still not sure whether a pastor who falls into “moral failure” should ever go back into vocational ministry.”

    I get the hesitation in letting someone back to the place of church leadership, as I have it myself.

    But there’s always grace for the sinner. No one has gone too far to not be a child of the King.

    Bob – I am sorry that none of the 3 CC guys have accepted your offer. I know I would.

  53. FF,
    Interesting observation by your young friend. Many of the younger guys are hauntingly close in their resemblance of the older guys. I’m not so sure it has much to do with age as it does true humility; a commodity that appears in short supply in most circles.

    Secondly, there is a difference between honesty and openness. Honesty is vital, openness is contextual. Some pastors are so open that I sense there is a psychological “dumping ground” of self disclosure that is neither healthy for the pastor or the flock they shepherd. Big boys know when to reserve some for a trusted, mature, intimate circle.

  54. Ixtlan,
    Points well taken. The humility factor is indeed huge when it comes pastors and their social skills or lack thereof.

  55. This is an interesting discussion all around.

  56. I received a clarifying comment privately from another senior pastor:

    “I know that five years ago there was a seminar during the senior pastor’s conference involving tax related issues and a major part of the discussion was that pastors should opt out of social security – but it had nothing to do with the rapture. It wasn’t even presented as a question mark, just basically if you don’t do this you are foolish. It was focused on the large self-employment tax, the relative uncertainty of SS future, the idea that we are (most of us) conservatives who trust God and ourselves to take care of us, not the government…maybe there was an offhand mention of ‘Who knows the Lord may come back before you need it anyway” but if it was said, it was not the focus at all.”

  57. And Bob…I appreciate your honesty and how you express yourself on this topic when it comes up from time to time.

  58. 1. Amen, I’m glad I am not the only one seeing this. Pray for the children, but also pray strongly for the “leaders”.
    2. And the frosting on the cake? His excellency lord osteen awaited “god’s” tight rope walker on the other side.
    3. Hunger games coming soon to a Christian near you?
    4. Modus Operandi for self appointed prophets.
    5. The Bible says ‘no’, it lists the traits for a religious leader. If you do not meet them, you do not meet them. Simple math. It doesn’t mean your not a Christian, doesn’t mean your not forgiven, simply means ministry is not for you. Perhaps a job at a charity instead?
    6. Truth. And words fail to capture emotion & tone as well.
    7. Prayers for health as well.
    8. Lower operating expenses. Much more of the tithe reaches the needy. I did a paper on it once.
    9. Agreed. It is also possible to forgive (halfsies on reconciling) without full reconciliation.
    10. It is indeed difficult. I typically revert back to Jesus to maintain peace.

  59. Michael, I should add that I sort of expected a Paula Deen comment this week

  60. Steve,

    I’m so sadly out of touch with pop culture that I didn’t even know who the woman was before this weekend…I learned of both her and the idiot on the wire from Twitter.
    It is ironic that she gets immediately canned from the pop culture and we all know she’d be safe in most denominations..

  61. Equating the food network stars with pop culture might be a stretch

    Except for Emeril Lagasse, Bobby Flay, Rachel Ray, Mario Batali, Giada

    (wait never mind 🙂 )

  62. Crowned1,

    See, we can agree sometimes! 🙂

  63. Crowned1

    Qualifications as expressed in I Timothy 3:1-7:

    *One must seek the office
    *A husband of one wife
    *Self-controlled
    *Sober-minded
    *Orderly
    *Hospitable
    *Able to teach
    *Not a drunkard
    *Not violent but gentle
    *Not quarrelsome
    *Not a lover of money
    *Must manage his own household well, with all dignity keeping his children submissive
    *Must not be a recent convert
    *Moreover, must be well thought of by outsiders

    I would suggest that pastors meet ALL the rest of the traits as well. Oh wait, if they did, there wouldn’t be too many in ministry right now! How many do you know?

    “Simple math. It doesn’t mean your not a Christian, doesn’t mean your not forgiven, simply means ministry is not for you.”

    Simple math? Certainly, if you choose “Husband of one wife” and throw out the rest. Hardly so!

  64. Bob @ 63,

    You can teach & work as a civilian without being appointed to the office of pastor. The Lord’s work would be done, regardless of employment status with a 401(c)(3).

    If you are called to the Lord’s work…God will open doors for you. It does not automatically mean the “door” is a position of trust within a non-profit corporation.

    I pray that should you never find church employment again…that God still uses you mightily for His glory.

  65. “I think it’s very difficult for people to grasp the fact that Smith actually believed so strongly that the Rapture would happen in his lifetime that he refused to entertain any succession plan.”

    I don’t buy that explanation. I don’t think Smith believes in the rapture at all – at least when it comes to planning. They were building the High School and expanding the empire in the days leading up to 1981. I think Smith just uses the rapture teaching to evangelize, ie get more people into his kingdom.

    The reason Smith hasn’t given up power is that Smith is above all else into power. The art of what he has done in his ministry is to appear to be humble but spend some time with Smith, as I have, away from the lights and cameras and you see an entirely different man.

  66. Crowned1

    “You can teach & work as a civilian without being appointed to the office of pastor. The Lord’s work would be done, regardless of employment status with a 401(c)(3)”.

    I am presently on staff (as a pastor) at a church. Although my ordination from my former denomination remains, Calvary Chapel ordained me in 2001. That must disappoint you.

    But you did not answer my question in #63. Do you know any pastor that meets ALL those requirements?

  67. MTM,

    I can certainly speak to the last few years and innumerable conversations with those very close to him…and he believed that doctrine above almost any other.

  68. Bob @ 63

    P.S. I am sorry I did not include this in the prior. But you had made a comment about the leadership traits not being realistically attainable…

    I’m not really sure how to answer that because I didn’t write them (WAY above my pay grade)…and adding to (or taking away from) the Word is a no-no. So…I’m honestly not sure how to answer…other than to say I believe God meant what He said.

  69. Bob,
    We had a class at South Canyon Baptist Church, given by the pastor, on the qualifications. All those qualifications are given elsewhere, besides teaching, generally to Christians as a guide to live strive towards.
    None of “us” meet them completely either.
    Why do we hold elders, deacons and pastors to a standard we can’t meet ourselves?

    Some in the body are more critical of others than they are of their own conduct.

  70. The only “unique” ministry trait seems to be teaching.

  71. #68

    I did not say anything about the traits from 1 Timothy being realistically attainable. I ask if you have ever known any pastor who meets them all. You seem, like many others, to put the focus on one woman man.

  72. MTM said, “The art of what he has done in his ministry is to appear to be humble but spend some time with Smith, as I have, away from the lights and cameras and you see an entirely different man.”

    Yes, I can corroborate that. That’s been my experience as well. When you’re an arrogant shark, you recognized other arrogant sharks. He was my equal (if not superior) in that regard. I’m just overt about who I am and what I think of myself, I don’t hide it. In fact, I dare say my private me is reverse-hypocrite, I’m not quite as big an a-hole as the public me.

  73. If Smith really believes in the rapture then this is yet another bad fruit of the false teaching… I know enough people that left the faith due to 1981 to know it’s got plenty of bad fruit. I don’t \believe that Smith believed it would happen in 1981 or any time in his lifetime.

    All I had to do in the late 1970s when I heard Smith teach it was read his books on the subject and look up the passages to know Smith was teaching false doctrine. Add to that where Smith puts the ellipses dots in his books (…). Easy to enough to see he’s got a lot to hide on the subject – and he knows it.

    http://calvarychapel.pbworks.com/1981

    My belief is based on what he did with his treasure over the years. He didn’t invest it like the rapture was true. He acted to the contrary. He wasn’t living in a van on the beach and skipping out on college like my friend Brian was in the late 1970s. He was building his ever expanding empire. If you really believed in the imminent rapture what would you do right now?

    He may have told people he didn’t plan for a successor based on his view of the rapture, but that’s totally a cop-out. I still don’t buy it. He also told people that he thought it might not happen in his lifetime.

  74. Derek

    Good point! I’m just responding to the comments of Crowned 1.

  75. Bob @ 66 “That must disappoint you.”

    Not necessarily. If you are truly repentant and have taken steps to have others hold you to account for both your past failings and to allow iron to sharpen iron in other areas as well…I see no reason why you could not be on staff in a church again.

    More over, the scar from your past could be used as a tremendous witnessing tool to those struggling in similar fashion. It is a case by case basis…and a heart issue…imo.

  76. I know, just chiming in. I have seen many get on the train of “thus and such pastor did not live up to the qualifications” many times on here. That class has come in very handy in making me see that in reality, we all need to strive to the qualifications.
    Now living up to them, that is a whole different matter.
    Which is why Christ was needed.

  77. From everything I can gather, Smith not only believes in the doctrine, he’s genuinely surprised and confused that it hasn’t happened yet.

  78. Bob @ 71 “I did not say anything about the traits from 1 Timothy being realistically attainable. I ask if you have ever known any pastor who meets them all. You seem, like many others, to put the focus on one woman man.”

    It is impossible for me to know if ‘any man’ has ever attained them as I cannot read minds…yet they are scribed in the text regardless. In actuality, if there is a ‘beef’ with the list…it is with God, not with man.

    I see no reason to place a particular emphasis on the ‘husband of one wife’ criteria, they are all equally important.

    I was raised in the “God hates gays, but grace & forgiveness for adulterous pastors” CC motif…so I understand where you are coming from in regard to singling out one sin.

  79. This is the most that I have posted here in months. I reacted to #5 on Things I Think because it obviously addressed my own situation. There will always be those like Crowned1, and they have every right to believe what they want. However, these people always come with the adultery card, while seemingly ignoring the other qualifications. I have never, or will never, downplay the seriousness of the sin that removed me from the pulpit. As I have mentioned at others times, the only right decision that I made at that time was removing myself from my position instead of trying to hide it from the people.

    I’m 67 years old, and as I mentioned in a prior post, my desire is not to return to the pulpit. But at the same time, I believe in restoration through the grace of God. So, I refuse to debate this matter any further. Crowned1 will continue to believe what he or she wants, and that’s ok.

  80. Michael @ 77 “From everything I can gather, Smith not only believes in the doctrine, he’s genuinely surprised and confused that it hasn’t happened yet.”

    He spun the wheel and it landed on the wrong doctrine. Such is the fate of many denominations in Christianity.

    It is what happens when you are ‘taught a bias’ instead of ‘taught the Word of God’. I am not looking forward to speaking with my parents after his passing.

  81. “… spend some time with Smith, as I have, away from the lights and cameras and you see an entirely different man.”

    That may be an honest report, but I cannot put much stock in it..

    Two people who have devoted their lives to publicly attacking the man may not have seen his best side when they were in his presence.

  82. PP Vet, He was unaware of who I am. In fact it was before I am what I am. 🙂

    It was a a board meeting. In spite of the claim that they are “open to the public” it was very hard to get to the meeting. They stalled me over and over. I was there on an matter related to a CC ministry that I was a part of. We were seeking official recognition of the ministry which Smith granted at the meeting which meant we could use CC in the ministry name.

    Smith’s comments on the downfall of Bill Hoenig really made it clear to me who Smith is. Hoenig had fought Smith in the courts on the High School (IIRC). Smith really hated Hoenig – who I happen to think is a jerk as well. It was when Hoenig got into trouble over some ethics issue and the gloating that Smith gave out at Hoenig’s fall let me see a different side of Smith. And the yes men on the board, too.

    That was what really exposed Smith to me for what he really is.

  83. I think PP vet speaks much truth in #82.

  84. Can’t speak for Tundra, but as for RB, the most loving and fair behavior I have ever seen him display in about 4 years reading him online was in the days following his personal meeting with Chuck. RB and I even exchanged a pleasant email to that regard back then.

  85. Steve, I think that RB had a hope that Smith would follow through on his promises. He didn’t.

  86. Bob @ 79 “However, these people always come with the adultery card, while seemingly ignoring the other qualifications”

    As I stated previously, I do not overlook the other qualifications, they are all important. As far as I can tell, only you are focusing on the adultery card.

    I also stated previously, that if you are ‘truly repentant (including accountability partners)’ it is acceptable to be restored to ministry. If you ‘answer only to God’ as a pastor…I cannot endorse restoration.

    “As I have mentioned at others times, the only right decision that I made at that time was removing myself from my position instead of trying to hide it from the people.”

    I respect that, a lot actually, my personal observances have been the opposite. Thank you for being a ‘man’, and not a coward…hiding behind career & mammon.

  87. It was at that time when I was an instructor at the Tuesday night school of the Bible at CCCM. I had respect for Smith and even fondness. Seeing him behind the scenes was a real eyeopener for me. He may have had a special hatred for Honig, but I realized it wasn’t consistent with how he taught we should view our enemies. He was excited to see Honig fall. Not praying for the man. If there are any board members from the time reading they can tell the same story.

  88. I think this was the case that drew Chuck Smith’s ire against Bill Honig:

    http://www.skeptictank.org/files/evolut/honig02e.htm

    I wonder how much Smith had to do with the downfall?

  89. 1. So true.
    2. & 3. Didn’t watch it. Inspector Lewis was on PBS.
    4. Caner seems to be a special steaming pile of dog poo.
    5. Addressed enough in the comments.
    6. Photos never measure up to real life. The rest of the thought is far too true and I need to take my own advice sometimes.
    7. Your original thought was straight on the money…as for the bash fest that has followed. Some will bash even after the man has gone to his reward, probably within hours, I think this has been addressed about other recently deceased saints recently here, both ones supported here and ones not. Let the man go to his rest in peace, give an adequate amount of time for people to grieve, and then give it a while longer before discussing his legacy. I know a lot of people on this blog actually support the man, don’t give them reason, too quickly, to get angry by your words. This was not addressed to any one person, but a word to many.
    8. No idea.
    9. Exactly and words I need to take to heart.
    10. Hmm. Gotta think about this one some more.

  90. MTM @81

    I occasionally fill in for some pastors that I know.

  91. Ah, the page listed your name as “Pastor” and you are still preaching at times…

  92. “I also stated previously, that if you are ‘truly repentant (including accountability partners)’ it is acceptable to be restored to ministry. If you ‘answer only to God’ as a pastor…I cannot endorse restoration.”

    I have been accountable to men. There use to be a link at PP to a teaching on restoration that I taught at Calvary Chapel Grants Pass back in 2006. I made it pretty clear how I felt about proper restoration.

  93. Bob @ 79 “my desire is not to return to the pulpit”

    Bob @ 91 “I occasionally fill in for some pastors that I know”

    I no longer endorse you for restoration.

  94. Oh and as to Paula Deen, found this article contrasting her and Ergun Caner.

    http://fbcjaxwatchdog.blogspot.com/2013/06/paul-dean-gets-fired-ergun-caner-keeps.html

    I went to her apology on YouTube Sunday, and scrolled through the comments (can’t speak for how it looks now), but noticed no comments that weren’t understanding and forgiving, many of them from the offended race. I actually saw none that day that were bad towards her.
    She apologized, but the news media is determined to see her downfall. Therefore she has lost. I feel sorry for her.

  95. @79
    I meant as a senior pastor.

    I’m glad I don’t need your endorsement!

  96. It would really have helped if CC had put out something “official” on the process of restoration. Of course that would have had to change over the years as the Smith children divorced, etc.

  97. @92

    2 times this year. Sounds like 2 time too many.

  98. Ah, Bob, if only we all could share what we learned on the internet. But, for some people on here that is verboten.

    I didn’t know “desiring” included filling in.
    I always saw filling in as helping out.
    But, some people are always waiting for perceived slip ups.
    Talk about some Phariseeism in action.

  99. This isn’t the application site for the NSA though.

    That would be here:

    http://www.nsa.gov/careers/jobs_search_apply/

  100. Bob @ 79 “my desire is not to return to the pulpit”

    Bob @ 91 “I occasionally fill in for some pastors that I know”

    I no longer endorse you for restoration.

    LOL….I’ll endorse you Bob. It has about as much actual value as Covered1’s “unendorsement” but there ya go! One vote yes for confession, recovery and grace. 😉

  101. covered 1’s endorsement? I haven’t said a word 🙂 I think you mean Crowned 1

  102. Steve, for one who appeals to “context” all the time, I think you’d be able to connect the dots that my estimation of Smith Sr. is in light of his terrible handling of the situation subsequent to the “meeting” by not following through on his promise to get back to me, by blasting me from the CCCM pulpit and telling the public I was in “greater sin” than being abused as a child for “unforgiveness” and then calling me names on the RemnantXRadio interview.

    I was trying to be gracious when I thought he was going to be an honorable judge and take responsibility and do the right thing with his pastor. He didn’t, he showed his true colors.

    My assessment of the “meeting” was that he was very much a shrewd businessman, it was more akin to a serious business negotiation than anything spiritual and that was my assessment in the moment (that is documented) and that is still my assessment today.

  103. Lol. Yes

  104. Sorry about that.
    Was hurrying to get out of the office.

  105. I would also add that Chuck really seemed to expect and enjoy the Chuck Worship I witnessed when he walked into the Logos Building. It was as if President Obama had walked into the offices of MSDNC or CBS, the people were fawning all over him and he loved it.

  106. I believe that 2 Cor seven 10-12 speaks directly to what repentance and restoration looks like. As far as I can see, Bob has been very transparent. Because repentance is a verb it seems to me that Bob has turned towards God which is all that seems to be required for “Godly sorrow”. Godly sorrow isn’t based on emotions or feelings but it shows in someone’s character. It’s a visible and physical thing as Paul describes things like diligence, clearing of yourself, indignation, fear, zeal and in “all things, you proved yourself clear in this matter”. This not only means to be totally transparent but also receiving forgiveness and clearing yourself from the shame that comes with our sin.

    From where I’m sitting, Bob has done a much better job of that than the pastor I used to work for who felt that it was ok to chase married women.

    Just my .02 worth.

  107. I assume you all understand that I am referring to Bob Sweat and not Bob G. Sorry if I confused anyone 🙂

  108. covered said, “As far as I can see, Bob has been very transparent. ”

    That was my clue you weren’t talking about Bob G. BG is about as transparent as a parking lot.

  109. Bob Sweat is the real deal. Hearing his message on restoration at least twice reveals the heart of a man who isn’t trivializing what has taken place in his life. How many of us have looked at the opposite sex with lust in our hearts? Probably most and if the circumstances had presented themselves who knows how many of us would have might have given in to that temptation? And who of us can know the pure emotional and spiritual agony Bob experienced as a result of what had taken place? I would sit under his teaching any time.

  110. God can work in a church even if there is no succession plan. Look what happened to the Armstrong Church. They got the old leader out … through death and they became a Christian church.

    Chuck’s future plans for the church are of no consequence. If God works it will be good – if the pastors eat each other, that’s not Chuck’s fault.

  111. For those like Derek and others relatively new, quite a few details were left out of that history recap that some of us watched unfold with our own eyes. I’m sure you’re not surprised though.

    I’ll let the few who want to use reference to praying for a dying man as opportunity to continue their personal wars, and I will join with the initial post in praying for Pastor Chuck and his family during this difficult time.

  112. RB you know that this is never a characteristic I would use for Bob G~. Transparent as a parking lot suits though.

    erunner, I believe you are correct about Bob S. When it’s obvious that someone can beat himself up better than others can do, that’s a sign of integrity in my book.

  113. MTM,

    Your posts aren’t stuck, I’m not approving them.

  114. MTM,

    Real simple.
    You want to pick at and pick apart a long time friend of mine and this community.
    I’m not going to let it happen.
    This moderation crap is taking too much of my time, so henceforth I’ll get to them when I feel like it.

  115. MTM,

    The internet is amazing…just one click and you can go anywhere.
    Click.

  116. MTM,

    This isn’t about “unequal weights and measures” it’s about your lack of respect and graceless desire to rip someone who doesn’t deserve it.
    Bye.

  117. Bob @ 96 “I’m glad I don’t need your endorsement!”

    Nothing personal, I’m sure your a really nice guy. I’ve just been lied to quite a few times in the past by pastors, so even the slightest hint of double-speak sets of my spider senses.

    One lie cost me thousands of dollars of debt that took me years to repay. God forgot to open up the floodgates after I gave “Him” money I didn’t have.

  118. Crowned1
    Bob Sweat does not need my endorsement, but he is getting it anyway. I know Bob personally and he is 100% genuine … and a very nice guy.

    Sorry Bob if I tainted you by association. 😉

  119. It’s been an intresting day. Bob, you rock!

  120. I posted Bob’s sermon on restoration for those interested.

  121. The Smith situation is filled with intrigue and anxiety as it should be. The integrity of the commentary seems to be based on the level of centrist involvement and first hand knowledge. I cannot go any farther without showing disrespect to the players involved. There is however a lot to be learned by how this all plays out. This discussion has been fruitful.

  122. FF,

    It’s going to be fascinating…and historical.

  123. Thanks Michael,
    I enjoy being your friend.

  124. FF,

    Likewise. 🙂

  125. Michael

    My mention on my teaching in Grants Pass was not a request that you link the teaching. I thought it was dead and gone. I haven’t listened to it in almost 7 years, and it was painful. For a night I relived the most painful time in my life. I appreciate your putting it up again, but I would request that you take it down. I really don’t want to have to read whatever comments some might want to make. I said too much today, and its best that I just go back to reading PP for awhile. If anyone is interested in listening to it, maybe they could contact you and you could send them the link.

    Thank you.

  126. Bob,
    As you wish.
    I put it up because I thought you wanted me to…I did it because it’s really valuable.
    This blog isn’t worth having if we have to fear people who only wish to tear down.

  127. Another hands-down endorsement for Bob Sweat, for what it’s worth.

  128. My sincere apologies…I should have never let MTM back on the blog.
    Sometimes grace becomes the weapon they use to take you out.

  129. Michael

    You have nothing to apologize for. You are a trusted friend, and I fully understand how you might have thought I wanted to put it back up.

  130. Bob, perhaps Michael could disable the comments on that thread.

  131. Bob,

    I need to correct that… I DIDNT put it up because I thought you wanted me too…but because it does have great value.
    My apologies again…I feel awful that I caused you this grief.
    Back to the drawing board…

  132. Those who did want to hear it can email me at phoenixpreacher@gmail.com

  133. Isn’t it amazing how one idiot can ruin a whole thread?!!

  134. Bob, several years ago when I was at my most hurt, I would read your postings and know that God redeems. You brought strength and genuineness to faith that I had only dreamed about. You put flesh on the faith so to speak.

    I met you once at one of the E-fests. I was a bit concerned about meeting face to face you and many of the others I had interacted with, or more precisely read their posting. You see I was worried that their online personas would not hold up to the flesh and bones of who they really were.

    I was greatly pleased that your online presence was the same as your in person presence. I want you to know that you had a great influence in my healing. Thank you for being a true servant of Christ.

  135. Obviously, all here respect Bob and his wishes – especially our host.

    I did get a chance to listen just now, and I will say it is worth asking Michael for the link.

    I was tracking with you, Bob. Well done.

  136. I kind of dig Nick Walenda.
    Wouldn’t want to be married to someone like that, but glad for him to be carrying on his family’s tradition and being a daredevil in times where so many if us are afraid of so many things.
    We as a society need people like him, evil kneivel etc.men who do such outrageous things
    Think how many of us used to think Evil Knieval was the coolest thing ever.
    What do kids today have to look up to?
    .
    If his wife and family are ok with it, then who are we to say otherwise?

  137. You know Bod I deeply respect you, I dont fully know the situation you were in but I have always respected your input here. About falling, I have fallen in many ways over my “Christian walk”, most of my failing would be seen as doctrinal and personal, I E needing to much, asking to much and other such “sins of fellowship”. I admire that you have been restored, you are one of the few maybe two cases I have ever personally seen. For what its worth I see you as a Pastor, your kind words and wisdom have been as a pastor would to me. I am grateful.

  138. http://home.honolulu.hawaii.edu/~pine/bluedot_files/bluedot.jpg

    From Voyager one as it left our very small solar system. well actually it was just past the orbit of Neptune I think it was. Thats us, all of us from day one until now all wrapped up in that pail blue dot, next to the Hubble deep field photographs I consider this the most profound image man has ever captured.

  139. Personally, I think MTM…

  140. “Chuck’s future plans for the church are of no consequence. If God works it will be good – if the pastors eat each other, that’s not Chuck’s fault.”

    However, BAD fruit is BAD fruit coming from a bad tree.

  141. Andrew – you missed the point. If God could take a clear cut cult church like the Worldwide Church of god and turn it into a Christian church after the death of the founder – why do you worry that God cannot do the same with CC. (I am not comparing CC to a cult, but just showing who is really in charge.)

    If God is done with CC, as some here have said (I don’t agree) then Chuck could have the best succession plan in place and it would not matter.

  142. MLD, I am not disagreeing with you. You missed my point. I’m not worrying about anything. I am just observing. A bad tree produces bad fruit. I am not going to give Chuck a pass with bad fruit in the organization because he himself set up the “Moses Model” where he is only responsible to God alone and he teaches others to do the same. Why have accountability to anyone but God alone is what Chuck has institutionalized? This is bound to produce bad fruit and it has as far as I can tell.

  143. I’d say the Moses Model stretches back to at least the 2nd Great Awakening in the American church. Chuck just gave it a nick name.

  144. Josh,

    Do you have a source?

  145. Pastor led churches go back to the Reformation.
    They would never have used the inane theology of the Moses Model to codify it, but the concept was the same.

  146. Andrew, any source on the 2nd Great Awakening will give you the idea. 2GA was marked by frontier revival preachers, launching out on their own, and independent churches springing up in their wake.

  147. Josh,

    I think you’re right…that was the turning point from traditional forms of church governance.

  148. Religous giving is down because people are smartening up and are tired of being gouged to pay for huge mortgages and debt ridden buidlings and seeing the Pastor living the life fantastic while they stgruggle to make ends meet. Very little of the $ given to churches goes to charity as most goes to unneeded overhead. I’ll just cut out the middleman and give to those in need myself. Funny how Pastors preach that tithing is for today but yet don’t keep the sabbath holy or keep other parts of the fufilled law such as animal sacrifices.

  149. Okay so many Pastors use adultery as the barometer of reinstatement, how come very few talk about not being greedy for gain because I see tons that have that problem. They should be the ones not to be allowed back in ministry.

  150. So Michael, you have never fallen into moral failure? Many sins fall into the Moral failure category so don’t just use adultery as the barometer

  151. Solomon,

    I fail continually.
    I’ve never been married so I haven’t broke that one.

  152. Solomon,

    There are about nine churches in a five mile radius of my home.
    They are all struggling just to keep the doors open and most of their pastors are working a second job.
    The broad brush doesn’t work in the real world.

  153. When you are speaking to a broad audience you do not have time to mention every nuance of exceptions and specify what chruches do this and that. I would hope that people would be smart enuff to realize that I am not talking about every single church.

  154. “Andrew, any source on the 2nd Great Awakening will give you the idea. 2GA was marked by frontier revival preachers, launching out on their own, and independent churches springing up in their wake”

    Moses lead the entire COUNTRY of Israel. Moses had a covenant with God. I’m failing to see any resemblance of the frontier revival preachers to what Chuck Smith has basically espoused in the “Moses Model”.

  155. Andrew,

    No one is arguing here that the Moses Model was theologically sound.
    What it accomplished in the end was a senior pastor led system that has been in place for centuries…it just took a bizarre way to the same place.

  156. The fruit of the Moses Model is evident for all to see and as far as I can tell not one CC senior pastor in the entire movement has renounced what is written in the distinctives calling it theologically unsound. Only those outside have done so.

  157. Andrew,

    There are more than a few that hold to both papers.
    However, the new CCA decided against including either as part of affiliation process or in the statement of faith.
    They will always be senior pastor led churches…but after this generation explaining it via the Moses Model is toast.

  158. The fruit of the Moses Model is evident for all to see
    ———————————————-
    One Sunday the picketers were out at Costa Mesa. I was early so I stopped to talk to one of them. They all were wearing T-shirts listing false teachers. The 8 or so names on the shirts were about the most influential evangelical voices at the time. Smith, Laurie were the CC guys, but they also listed MacArthur, Dobson, Billy Graham, Swindoll, and a couple others.

    So I said, what makes Chuck a false prophet. The beef was solely because Chuck did not believe suicide sends someone to hell. I was taken aback. Really? Is that it? OK, so what is the problem – and the connection was that false teachers send people to hell.

    After making clear he realized Chuck was not promoting suicide and there were no mass suicides taking place, I got down to the direct question – as thousands were leaving the prior service and thousands were about to go in the next one, including me – so do you think everyone going to church today, claiming Jesus as Savior and worshipping Him, is going to hell – including most of them who have no idea Chuck’s position on suicide – just because Chuck is the pastor of this church.

    It really seemed to give him pause, but he had been indoctrinated to conclude that, and so he said “yes” but I could see his heart was not in it. Hopefully, I planted a seed.

    Can anything good come out of Nazareth?
    Come and see.

  159. CC is not just senior pastor led but its also regionally led and ultimately was centrally led out of Costa Mesa under one man. Like Moses things were delegated. Unless this part of the delegation goes away, nothing has changed. It almost appears that there are arch bishops in place with the CCA counsel members. CC was always like an informal episcopacy. Maybe I am wrong but this is my first impression.

  160. All organizations have a structure.
    You will affiliate with the one you feel is most biblical.

  161. Maybe I am wrong but this is my first impression.
    ————————————-
    You are wrong. I have told you before you are wrong. The only question is will you accept it and learn something about the people you criticize or continue like a few others in insisting you know more about CC pastors than CC pastors and repeating where you are wrong.

    Personally, I’m rooting for you, Andrew! 🙂

  162. These Demoninations should just do what please them as that is what the people want. Moses Model, why not, what’s so bad about mit that is not bad about other systems. Yeah lets go the Catholic route which is centralized, oh but wait they molest kids and cover up child molesters. You don’t like the way a 501 c 3 conducts itslef then leave, simple as that. I’m gettting tired of the whiners but yet they stay and take the abuse. It’s called BOUNDRIES people.

  163. “You are wrong. I have told you before you are wrong. The only question is will you accept it and learn something about the people you criticize or continue like a few others in insisting you know more about CC pastors than CC pastors and repeating where you are wrong”

    Wrong with they way things used to be or wrong with the ways things “will be”? The Moses Model is what it is. Steve, do you agree with the Moses Model as Chuck Smith put in the distinctives? Yes or No?

  164. Andrew, other than the name “Moses Model” what is it about CC leadership model that you think is unique? It has all been around for centuries.

  165. Josh,
    I’ll let Chuck Smith speak for himself with the way he has articulated the Moses Model in the distinctives. And I would still like an answer from Steve whether or not he agrees with it.

  166. “So when we came to Calvary Chapel and established the bylaws, we didn’t create a
    Presbyterian form of government. It was more of an Episkopos form of government for
    Calvary Chapel.”

    Direct quote from the distinctives. So Steve, what am I wrong about?

  167. I know it’s a ways up there, but I would like to comment on Bob’s #63.

    ***Qualifications as expressed in I Timothy 3:1-7:

    *One must seek the office
    *A husband of one wife
    *Self-controlled
    *Sober-minded
    *Orderly
    *Hospitable
    *Able to teach
    *Not a drunkard
    *Not violent but gentle
    *Not quarrelsome
    *Not a lover of money
    *Must manage his own household well, with all dignity keeping his children submissive
    *Must not be a recent convert
    *Moreover, must be well thought of by outsiders

    I would suggest that pastors meet ALL the rest of the traits as well. Oh wait, if they did, there wouldn’t be too many in ministry right now! How many do you know? ***

    I believe that both my pastor and my parents’ pastor meet these qualifications.

    I do not necessarily believe people focus on adulterous pastors while not caring about the other qualifications, but, even if that is true, perhaps it’s simply an indication that adultery is a much more obvious failing than the other ones and one that can’t be argued against as easily. A pastor could be inhospitable, but it’s easier to argue that away whereas adultery is adultery is adultery.

    I am also troubled by the idea that this list of qualifications shouldn’t matter because if it did nobody would be a pastor. If pastors are failing this list in large numbers perhaps that mean either (a) there are too many pastors or (b) ministry as it exists in this society draws the wrong sorts of people to it or (c) ministry as it currently exists corrupts the people who enter into it.

  168. j2,

    Good to see you back…and thought provoking as always. 🙂

  169. Andrew, I thought you were talking about CCA, arch bishops and such. That is what I was saying you are wrong about.

    Now you’re back to the local church government again? Do you accept my correction on the CCA/arch bishop stuff (and won’t bring it up again) because one thing at a time if you don’t mind. Then we can talk about the local church….

  170. I still read here, Michael. I just have a a hard time posting because I have a 12 month old who has been walking for the last 2 months. 😛

  171. j2,

    I follow you on Facebook…you bring me hope as I’ve watched God answer the desires of your heart.
    You’re really smart, too. 🙂

  172. Michael,
    In answerr to solomon you said you’ve never been married? How is it that you have a son?
    Adopted? Is that difficult to do (or get approved for) as a single, never married man?
    -mike

  173. mike,

    It takes a special kind of hatred to ask that question.
    He is not my blood…I was asked to help raise him upon his birth.
    I said yes…and committed to being the best father I can be.
    Satisfied now?

  174. Hate me all you want…leave family alone.

  175. “Do you accept my correction on the CCA/arch bishop stuff (and won’t bring it up again) because one thing at a time if you don’t mind.”

    CC has in the past has been run out of Costa Mesa with the CCOF as the enforcement arm of the movement. If you want to deny this past, I am not sure what to say to you. I read the letter from Don McClure to the pastors and it sure sounds like “AUTHORITY” was given to the regional pastors. But what authority and by who? Apparently this was tried before 10 years ago and wasn’t successful. But this time real authority was given to the regions. So I am not sure what I am wrong about at all.

  176. Andrew, I always regret when you go down this path. You come off looking bad. Why nopt just listen to the guys who are part of the movement, rather than your own made-up ideas?

  177. From that letter to the pastors:

    “CCOF is being dissolved and a new plan has been established. Chuck has asked a group of men that have been with him for many years to take over the oversight of the movement. The name is “Calvary Chapel Association” or CCA. There will no longer be a central headquarters or anything like that. The leadership of the movement has been regionalized throughout the United States…….

    “The team of pastors in the regions will essentially assume the role in the region that CCOF used to fulfill and much more……

    They will handle problem letters, calls and emails that now come into either Calvary of Costa Mesa or CCOF.”

  178. “Why nopt just listen to the guys who are part of the movement, rather than your own made-up ideas?”

    Josh, I am quoting direct sources. If Steve is on the CCA leadership counsel than maybe he can correct all of this but I don’t see his name there yet he insists I am wrong.

  179. Andrew,

    I know a few of those guys in “authority”…they have very little and after the splits will have less.
    The authority spoken of is to affiliate…and one of the big issues dividing CC right now is over that authority.

  180. Alright Andrew. I guess you know better than everyone else. Keep swinging.

  181. And here is some more:

    “There is, however, a major change from the previous time we attempted the regional idea about 10 years ago. And that is that both Chuck Smith and I will not be having any authority over the decisions of the regional teams. Though we sit on the council of CCA, the true leadership is being handed over to the regions.”

  182. Andrew,

    What you’re reading is what amounts to an experiment…one that isn’t working real well at the moment.
    If you want to believe that you are citing Holy Grail I can’t help you….if you want to know whats really happening, I can.

  183. Josh, I am trying to put some facts on the table. Nothing more or nothing less. But Steve will not come out and say a word about the traditional Moses Model hoping it all just goes away. If he wants reform, he should say so. If he supports the traditional Moses Model as articulated my Chuck he should say so but instead he just accuses me of being wrong. Steve is the one swinging here.

  184. “If you want to believe that you are citing Holy Grail I can’t help you….if you want to know whats really happening, I can.”

    I appreciate your help but I have been conditioned to believe that Chuck’s words are like Moses which he received directly from the Lord. And this is where the problem begins.

  185. Andrew,

    There are some in the movement who do receive Chuck’s pronouncements that way.
    The majority, I think, at this point do not.
    CC will always be a senior pastor led movement…but there can be checks and balances written into that system.
    We’ve helped write a bunch of new bylaws for CC churches.

  186. “The authority spoken of is to affiliate…and one of the big issues dividing CC right now is over that authority.”

    I agree with you. So what do you think will be the final outcome of this?

  187. Andrew,

    I wish I knew…it’s way up in the air.
    I see some definite splits…but who the leaders are and how that works out no one knows.
    It’s going to be a mess…

  188. “It’s going to be a mess…”

    I really want to see unity in the body of Christ but I really want to see the brand name go away so Jesus can be seen clearly. As far as I can tell, affiliation is all about being able to legally use the dove logo symbol and the CC name. Best thing CC could do in my estimation is just completely do away with the affiliation process since they are claiming independence anyway.

  189. CC is what it is and let it be so, good or bad

  190. Andrew,
    Perhaps you would post here your church governance documents – let’s give a look. Constitution and By Laws would be fine for starters.

  191. MLD,

    My church is small. Less than 200. Its also Chinese. I have never seen any bylaws but they may be in Chinese that I can not read and you probably can’t either. The doctrinal statement is pretty straightforward but I don’t have electronic copy only hard copy. Sorry.

  192. As far as I can tell, affiliation is all about being able to legally use the dove logo symbol and the CC name. Best thing CC could do in my estimation is just completely do away with the affiliation process since they are claiming independence anyway.
    —————————————————————————
    I SPECIFICALLY addressed this point just a few days ago, using a comparison to Baptists and in discussion to this blog community.

    Affiliation is not “all about” a logo and a name.

    Good grief.

  193. “Affiliation is not “all about” a logo and a name.”

    Oh, I forgot its mainly about fellowship of like minded pastors. Its seems like an elite club with the merit badge of honor (dove) to be part of it. I say get rid of it all and just have good old fashioned fellowship with everyone in your church not just the “like minded” pastors. Most of the mega star CC pastors are too busy at all their pastors and senior pastors event and speaking engagements that they have little time for the precious sheep in the fold they delegate that all out to their under shepherds.

  194. Andrew, one week ago in the Loose Ends thread we had much of this discussion. I just reread some of those posts, and now you add this.

    You have to let the anger go, brother.

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