Jun 282013
 

87739_180This is a situation we were made aware of a couple of years ago, but lacked the documentation to write about.

There were other allegations made at the time as well that are not in this article.

Please click this link for the whole article.

 

“A pastor who recently started a new church in Lone Tree left his former Castle Rock church in financial disarray after leaving there in December 2011, according to current leaders of Castle Rock’s Calvary Chapel.

Brian Abeyta, senior pastor at Calvary Chapel from 2003 to 2011, in April led the debut service of the Beauty for Ashes Fellowship in a rented space at the Lone Tree Recreation Center.

In January 2012, he gave his last address to parishioners at Castle Rock’s Calvary Chapel, asking forgiveness for his behavior there.

“I let my guard down,” he said in a recorded address. “I became self-absorbed, financially irresponsible, bitter, a liar, deceptive, even unforgiving, all within these last few months. And for this, I’m deeply sorry.”

According to officials at the Castle Rock church, they’re still paying back rent and property taxes on their building, left unpaid under Abeyta’s leadership. Senior pastor Dave Love and board member Dave Weston said that for the last three years Abeyta was at the Castle Rock church, it operated without a board, in violation of bylaws. Based on an independent audit, they believe Abeyta spent more than $200,000 for personal use in 2011 alone.

“The money we’re talking about is well beyond any benefit or salary,” Love said.

“It’s unambiguous,” Weston agreed. “People have gone to jail for less.”…

  343 Responses to “Brian Abeyta”

  1. What strikes me about this story is that an apology is not enough and that’s why recovery based groups and 12 step groups have that step about making amends to people you’ve hurt.
    This guy ought to be working a regular job and making back payments to the church that he left in financial disarray before he ever becomes a pastor again. It’s the making amends part that shows a person’s true colours.
    He isn’t “recovered” from his “letting his guard down” type behavior by simply diagnosing his problem any more than a drug addict is recovered from addiction by saying “hi may name is joe and I am a drug addict”. It’s all the other work that makes up recovery or restoration (whaterver term you choose)

  2. Confession, admission of guilt, repentance, all of that is good. The Lord can and will restore him as he pursues Christ. But, starting another church??? He has ZERO credibility, and is it not character that is of primary importance in church leaders? How foolish. He should quietly disappear and allow God to use good mentors in his life, and then let’s talk in about a decade. A “spotless reputation” isn’t developed in a year or two.

  3. London,

    Well said.

    I’ve been sitting on this for two years waiting for someone to go on record….

  4. DavidM,

    This is just part of the story…he should be pursuing a career in animal husbandry or plumbing….anything but the ministry.

  5. When it comes to money and members of the opposite sex, you can’t be too careful. There are practical ways to keep yourself at a safe distance in both areas. I would be curious to see how this man has prevented this from ever happening again. Better yet, he is much better off staying away from shepherding a church.

  6. He has no business in that position…at all.

  7. No not animal husbandry just think of those poor animals. Plumbing, hotel doorman, waiter, landscaping, house painting, working on a road crew for a county. I think I must have seen this guy before at regional conference. As I recall I was not impressed.

  8. I think that Castle Rock Calvary Chapel took the high road here in not prosecuting him and also in warning Lone Tree Church.
    I agree with London on #1. If this guy had learned his lesson, he would be paying back the money as best as possible.
    But, there seems to be little ability to keep him from ministry as long as people will go to hear him. Let’s hope the people at Lone Tree hear the warning.

  9. Well hear and heed the warning.

  10. I agree with Derek. Castle Rock CC had a lot of options that they did take the high road. I wonder if this guy felt like he was “called” to start a new work?

  11. It’s a road.
    The high road would have been complete, honest, disclosure of the matter two years ago.
    I wonder if they would have said anything at all if he hadn’t moved back in the neighborhood.
    On the other hand, I can be a cynical bastard…

  12. Well, he confessed to the assembled body of the church.
    He may not have made amends, but the body took it and showed forgiveness and decided not to intervene till he started another church.
    I just believe that if the local church doesn’t want to make as big of a deal about it as people who do not attend the local church, then that is their business.
    It wasn’t on par with hiding a sex offender’s crimes.
    It is just money in the end.
    This church showed their priorities IMO and they had the right priorites.
    I have nothing but admiration for the way the church handled it.

  13. And now, let the comment wars about financial accountability begin……

  14. What the article doesn’t state is that there were also allegations of “moral failure”.
    I’m trying to get someone on the record with those as I speak.
    What if he just moved shop to Oregon or Florida?
    Would anything have been said?

  15. I’d like to think so. Dave Love is (was at least) one of the good guys.

  16. Well, luckily, we don;t have to play “What if” games. It is what it is. We can’t hold the church accountable for things that might have happened.
    Moral failure covers a lot of ground and allegations are just that allegations. You also take the high road in not reporting them, maybe that is why the church has said nothing.

  17. Derek,

    This story has stuck in my craw since I heard it almost 2 years ago.
    I have had neither the documentation or frankly, the health, to investigate it the way I would have five or six years ago.
    I know people who were deeply hurt in this mess.
    When Abeyta had to be replaced, instead of just finding a new pastor for the flock, five pastors were transferred in the area, disrupting all the congregations.
    It has been one of the strangest things I’ve ever seen.
    My prayer was that the truth would come out…and now I hope all the truth comes out.
    My biggest fear is that it won’t make a damn bit of difference…

  18. CK,

    I don’t know him.
    I do know that he doesn’t respond to emails that say “phoenix preacher ” in the address line. 🙂

  19. “what if he just moved shop to Oregon or Florida, would anything have been said?”. I believe that there are blogs like this one and Alex’s blog that have an eye out for such behavior. It’s getting harder to hide after you have hurt others. I would love to see either Love or Weston come on this blog.

  20. covered,

    All involved are welcome here…including Abeyta.
    I have questions for everyone… 🙂

  21. He could be the janitor. I wonder if CC Castle Rock needs a janitor.

  22. “I do know that he doesn’t respond to emails that say “phoenix preacher ” in the address line.”

    Now that’s funny right there!!! 🙂

  23. Can someone tell me why a pastor would have control of the check book? At my church the pastor is not a signer on a single account … and he has been the pastor for 23 years.

    Although this guy is a dog and fully responsible, I think leadership at the first church have some blood on their own hands if they allowed him to operate some years without a board.

  24. What leadership, MLD? If he was operating without a board, he was in control of everything.

  25. CK,

    It could give me a complex… 🙂

  26. Abeyta says in his apology these were “all sighing these last few months”? Really? $200,000 on personal expenses in 2011 alone and leaving the congregation hugely indebted for taxes etc., financially irresponsibl, included in the “all within these last few months”? His personal expenses alone are almost double the annual budget we had for our former church among whom I was a elder. Wow! This is bad and I have not even read the other link.

    And why would he habour unforgiveness? Unforgiveness for what? I certainly hope it was not in part because he was being questioned about these areas and held accountable.

  27. Michael, I thought you had moved away from covering CC stories. Is this something you will continue doing or is this a result of having so much information re this story for a few years?

    I’m very disillusioned right now. I “know” how things are and can be but I am becoming more jaded it seems and it’s not a good place to be. I grew up in the faith by completely trusting anything that came from the pulpit. I couldn’t fathom a man representing God in any type of blatant sin. It was all about the Benny Hinn’s and Kenneth Hagin’s, and Robert Schuller’s of the world.

    The bad guys were always outside of my camp (CC). Now I’m so jaded I can’t enter a situation without looking for what’s wrong. In today’s world I guess that’s a good thing as there’s so much that’s no longer under wraps. Thanks for what you’ve shown me through the years.

  28. Erunner,

    The only time we’ll get involved is when we have the necessary documentation and we can possibly prevent others from getting hurt.
    I certainly wouldn’t limit that to CC…if something was presented on another denom we might do that as well.
    What I can’t do is make this a focus everyday… I don’t have the time or the emotional or physical energy to do this daily.
    To be blunt, I wanted to do something with this situation since I heard about it.
    Without the documentation that is in this story it would have ended up as a constant brawl that I knew my health couldn’t handle, especially with all the other strife we’ve had here the last couple of years.
    If we stop with just spitting at the perps and wringing our hands this is pointless.
    We have to learn some lessons about how to see these guys in advance and how to move on in health if they hurt us.
    As you know, I’m dealing with a huge betrayal offline…but at the same time I’m seeing and hopefully helping a really good church with a really good CC pastor.
    I’ll count on you and our other readers to help us stay in balance.

  29. Kind of, but not really. The bible defines marriage in the Old Testament as it being OK to have Concubines (sex slaves) and multiple wives. Then “marriage” is defined as one non-divorced man and one non-divorced woman. Now it is any one divorced or non-divorced man and any one divorced or non-divorced woman.

    Those are the facts. The definition is not a Moral Absolute by definition as Absolute is the same for all contexts, in all situations, all cultures for all of time and clearly the bible and the church has had (and exampled) up to three definitions in history.

  30. ooops, wrong thread

  31. We need to unilaterally forgive this guy, but I wouldn’t recommend giving him your money…but be careful, Calvary Chapel is very litigious and vindictive and doesn’t forgive, they want money and blood.

  32. Forgiveness doesn’t remove consequences, nor does it necessarily include reconciliation.

  33. The story is much much worse than presented. Hopefully Abeyta doesn’t repeat the same things at the new church and hopefully people there are informed about his past so they can make an educated choice as whether or not to support him with the money they are giving to Jesus (that Abeyta will spend).

  34. “Forgiveness doesn’t remove consequences”

    Really? I thought God’s forgiveness removes the penalty of hell?

  35. This is nothing new. Just tune into TBN or the Church Channel, they have whole lineups of dudes and dudettes like this fellow.

    He started another CC?

    Once again, is there any culpability with the folks who were dropping their coin into basket every week without knowing if the man was accountable?

  36. Senior Pastor? The guy doesn’t look old enough to be a associate pastor.

  37. RB,

    You are confusing the temporal with the eternal.
    One may be forgiven of murder and see heaven, but only after the electric chair.

  38. Captain,
    “What leadership, MLD? If he was operating without a board, he was in control of everything.”

    All churches have leadership that is not on the board. 2 things
    1.) Those “leaders” should have said something.and suspended the pastor for breach of by laws.
    2.) How much money do these churches have that $200K goes missing and no one notices until an audit?

  39. Michael, the temporal and eternal seem to be interconnected in the Ideal regarding Forgiveness, no?

    If forgiveness is to be unilateral, and “70 times 7” and “father forgive them, they know not what they do” and the instruction of Paul to be defrauded instead of seeking justice in court etc…and the examples of Jesus pardoning the woman caught in adultery, the woman at the well, etc etc, doesn’t that demonstrate “no consequences” in the temporal?

  40. Abeyta also consistently failed to pay the full monthly rental amount, Love and Weston said, leaving the church $440,000 in arrears with its landlord. Love said the landlord has agreed to reduce that amount and is allowing the church to slowly repay the balance.
    ————————————————————
    MLD – from the linked article

  41. RB,
    ” doesn’t that demonstrate “no consequences” in the temporal?”

    If the woman caught in adultery had a venereal disease contracted through her immoral behavior – even though forgiven by Jesus, would still have the venereal disease.

  42. Abeyta could’ve gotten away with it all if he would have just surrounded himself with Yes-men and taken some tips from BG, Heitzig, Ries, Cook and others. But, he still didn’t go to jail and he still got the benefit of all that money, wow. That’s a lot of cheese, what a great lifestyle I’m sure enjoyed. God bless him.

  43. “If the woman caught in adultery had a venereal disease contracted through her immoral behavior – even though forgiven by Jesus, would still have the venereal disease.”

    You are confusing Reaping and Sowing Principle with the Ideal of the doctrine of Forgiveness…

  44. RB,

    You’re being deliberately obtuse.
    The NT clearly gives government a mandate to ‘bear the sword”.
    If you break the law there are going to be temporal consequences up to and including death.
    You may well enter the pearly gates as a forgiven sinner, but you will have arrived there through earthly courts.
    In the case of abuse of pastoral authority the man may repent and be forgiven of his sins, but he has disqualified himself from the office.
    In less dramatic cases breaking the law of God always has repercussions in the temporal realm.

  45. Steve,
    I’m still wondering why pastors would have a need to the churches funds? Why is the pastor, of an obviously large church, paying the rent bill?

  46. I share your confusion, MLD. I can’t sign a check, and we require two signatures from those authorized to do so.

  47. RB,
    At forgiveness, aren’t you forgiven of what you “reaped & sowed”?

    That’s what you were saying about David.

  48. Michael, it is a paradox in the bible. The Ideal is “no consequences” and the earthly reality is often consequences and often consequences that don’t fit the crime i.e. executing women and children to death with stones as righteous in the Old Testament.

  49. RB…there doesn’t seem to be any nuance, finesse, dimension or complexity in your thinking. Must it all be boiled down to the lowest common denominator? Elevating personal logic skills above all else is not wise. ‘…….Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered…..’ Proverbs 28:26

  50. RB,

    There are paradoxes in the Scripture.
    This isn’t one of them.
    Nowhere does the Bible posit a rule that forgiveness of sin removes all temporal consequences.
    It teaches exactly the opposite, in fact.

  51. Church people in these churches like the CC above need to get a backbone and force a coup

    When the Saxon Lutherans came to America, led by Bishop Martin Stephan, and settled in Perry County MO = the people determined that Stephanwas a scoundrel, a womanizer and a thief. They put him in a boat and sent him across the river to banish him.

    This was a big deal, and because they no longer had a bishop, wondered if they were even church. Most considered going back to Germany.

    That was the beginning of what today is the LCMS.

    So, CC people(and all other ‘s in abusive churches – take back your church. Kick out your pastor.
    We did and have lived happily ever after.

  52. Sigh…

    Men like this dude cast a shadow on those who have hearts for God and serve for no other reason then the fact that God has called them into service. Michael Newnham being a prime example of one who serves because he was called and not for financial gain of any sort. We all know Michael struggles to make ends meet while raising his son to the best of his abilities. And yet he continues to allow this blog and makes time to interact here.

    This post reminds me of the three “G’s.” We teach men of God that there are three G’s to be avoided at all times. The first is Pride (Glory). The second is Girls (lust). The third is gold “to touch the gold”, use ministry to personally prosper ones self.

    We have all seen men of God fall to the 3 G’s. I know one very well known pastor who has two sons. One of them would be an incredible teacher of the Word except for his many affairs with women.

    I also have worked in the neighborhood of a well known faith healer who has given into the wealth aspect of ministry, the gold. He has several mansions that rival the homes of the kings of the earth in private guard gated neighborhoods. All from the genrous giving of God’s people to his “ministry.”.

    And all of us have seen proud men of God, a truly sickning sight.

    Satan will always present the 3 G’s to anyone who is in ministry.

    The temptation will be presented at one time or another to any man who seeks to answer the call to the ministry. So anyone in ministry who is clean of the 3 G’s deserves our respect and honor.

    I honor Michael as a worthy man of God!

    And as for this fool that this post is about…

  53. “and forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors”

    “But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return, and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, for he is kind to the ungrateful and the evil.”

    “Be merciful, even as your Father is merciful.”

    “He does not deal with us according to our sins, nor repay us according to our iniquities.”

    “For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.”—speaks to the random non-correlated nature (paradoxical to the Romans 13 passage) of consequences.

    The Ideal presented in the bible is unilateral forgiveness and for the one who holds the power to bring consequences to return evil with good and let the offender off the hook.

    That’s one of several Narratives presented in the bible, it contradicts other Narratives and examples, but it is one of the Narratives none-the-less.

  54. Martin LD @#51 has a valid point.
    No one is above common sense.

    The man I mentioned above who had affairs with women was ejected. His church is still alive and well with a new pastor from Florida who is doing an excellent job in ministry.

  55. David,

    Thank you for the kind words, my friend.
    I was just thinking about you as I’m reading a new history of the Jesus People Movement…very interesting.

  56. Michael,
    You gonna tell us about the book? *raises a finger* 😉

  57. Ya, what is the book called. I love to read.

  58. Gary,

    LOL!
    It’s called “Gods Forever Family: The Jesus People Movement In America”.
    I’m only about a quarter of the way in right now, but it’s very interesting, to say the least.

  59. Thanks for the link Michael!

  60. The orher thing that struck me about the article is that the guy says after he left his church job he got a regular (non church) job but “it wasn’t a good fit” and he felt “called back into ministry”
    What does that even mean?
    He ripped off a church, tried a regular job, it was too hard so he went back to trying to start another church without making it right to the first group?

    Ridiculous!

  61. Make his name known among the flock of God as one to be avoided! London is right in the observation. Easy money of ministry seems to be his MO.

  62. RB,

    I don’t want to argue biblical interpretation on this thread.
    My hope is that over the weekend those who have had experience with Abeyta or those mentioned in the article will come forward with more light to share.

  63. OK Michael, no problem.

  64. I’m pretty sure Brian Abeyta will read this here.

    Brian, Jesus loves you and forgives you. I hope you won’t use that mercy as a license to defraud and hurt more people.

  65. “After much prayer and deliberation, God called the Abeyta family back to Colorado to plant Beauty for Ashes Fellowship, in Lone Tree, CO. ”

    http://www.beautyforashesfellowship.org/our-story/

    I guess when “God” calls, anything else is irrelevant 😉

    If I visit a church, or even informal christian gathering, and hear any God told me this or that talk, the hair on my neck rises and I have an urge to run like hell.

  66. The same paper wrote this a couple of days ago…

    “Pastor Brian Abeyta, formerly leader of Castle Rock’s Calvary Chapel, is starting over. Three months ago, he led the debut service for Beauty for Ashes Fellowship in a rented space at the Lone Tree Recreation Center.
    Abeyta left his senior pastor post at Calvary Chapel in 2011. He took a corporate job on the East Coast, but said he soon realized it wasn’t a good fit.
    “It wasn’t fulfilling for me,” he said. “Within the next 30 days, it was so clear God was calling us back to the area we really loved to plan another church. We moved 20 minutes up the road and just said, ‘Let’s start all over again.’”
    About 120 people attend the weekly 9 a.m. service, during which Abeyta conducts a verse-by-verse study of the Bible. His wife, Jenipher, and one of his four daughters help lead the musical portion of the service.
    “Our worship is very contemporary, very simple,” he said.
    It’s a compelling weekly message for Lone Tree resident Kim Johnson.
    “He’s not afraid to touch on those topics a lot of churches will just run away from,” she said. “He’s extremely passionate and has a great sense of humor.”
    The clean-cut but heavily tattooed Abeyta, 41, doesn’t fit the pastor image. The designs on both his arms were inspired by Biblical verses, but their origins aren’t immediately obvious.
    “A lot of people who have tattoos are stereotyped,” he said. For me, it’s just a part of my personality. It opens up an opportunity for dialogue and to minister to a totally different group of people. Our demographics are so vast — guys with tattoos, an older group in their 60s and 70s, and everything in between. I love that.”
    The name “Beauty for Ashes,” taken from a Biblical verse, reflects Abeyta’s belief that good often comes from bad.
    “The idea is, God can take a situation that seems completely hopeless, turn it around and make something great out of it,” he said. “We really feel like with the economy, unemployment and everything the way it is, people need hope. And that they can find that in God.”
    During Abeyta’s near-decade at Calvary Chapel, he said the church experienced dramatic growth. While he hopes the Lone Tree church grows, he said he learned from his experiences in Castle Rock.
    “The year and a half away from ministry was really good for me,” he said. “The retrospect of being able to look back and see, ‘I made some mistakes.’ I was doing seven services a week; I got exhausted. We’re going to put safeguards around myself and my family so we don’t lose focus.
    “Our desire is that it will grow. But maybe we’ll cross that bridge when we get there. I’m just taking it week by week.”

  67. Long time readers of the PhxP will recognize the name of the man Abeyta calls his pastor…
    Brian Michaels.

  68. MIchael, am I correct the first article you linked to is a rebuttal of sorts (or at least clarification) of what was this earlier article @67 – No mention of the problems in this latest article.

    As an aside, assuming he did not opt out of SS, that 200K is about a 90K tax bill.

  69. Steve,

    It appears (I can’t prove it) that when the second article I posted was published, someone called the paper with the rest of the story. 🙂 Thus, a kind of retraction/clarification.

  70. I know of a pastor that did this in a small town in Colorado. It is a very sad story.

    The church lost its pastor and the elders held it together and contacted CC to see if they could provide a pastor; one came from Vista and over a couple of years, excluded the older people who had held the church together and had asked for help, it was said you could not poor new wine in to new wine skins, but they seemed to be very godly people just not So Cal people; soon every ministry was run by the pastor and his wife, but people left, then the building that was handed over was sold and ‘ministry’ vehicles were purchased and business ventures attempted run by the pastors family, that failed…basically every asset was stripped and the pastor ended up at CCCM. I do not know what happen to those saints that trusted CC. They were real Christians and were basically kicked out and lost the church they were trying to save. It was like spiritual malpractice, and the ‘pastor’ just got away with it. Taylor was sent out in the beginning with two others to sign off on it. The elders had blind faith trusting CC and signed everything over. They got burned badly.

    I believe this has happened in CC more than people know or realize.

  71. 90K tax bill that the people of Lone Tree CC will be paying off for him instead of him working at a regular job to earn his own money.
    I don’t usually write on these “scandal” type threads, but this guy’s own words show what kind of guy he is.
    Why would anyone pay their own hard earned money to pay this guy’s tax bill on money he pilfered from another church?
    I could never belong to the church of someone I did not respect. Don’t know how others can.

  72. I forgot but now remember I spoke with Brian Michaels on the telephone when that stuff went down. For the life of me I can’t remember the circumstances leading up to that call. Maybe it’s best to forget some things! 🙂

  73. When I attended CCCR I had an issue with a leader yelling and screaming, out of control, so I requested help from leadership in dealing with this issue. Brian Abeyta said I did nothing wrong and that this leader was known for habitual sin in outbursts of anger. However, it took a year and 3 1/2 months of Abeyta saying he’d meet with me, never following through, never being proactive to communicate with me or apologize for not doing so. It was only after others approached him and told him he needed to make things right with me and my family that he called … still not meeting with me face to face as was the request all along.

    In that phone call Abeyta said the following to me. (I kept a record of it while he was speaking so I’d never get it wrong in trying to remember.):

    “Never speak of this to anyone”
    “You have too high expectations of leaders”
    “I can tell you are bitter and unforgiving because otherwise you would have forgotten this ever happened.”
    “The biblical definition of forgiving is forgetting.”
    “Your choosing to leave the church is an EVIL choice.”
    “You should have just trusted that I took care of this behind the scenes.” (It wasn’t something that could have been taken care of behind the scenes. This leader needed to repent and make things right. Being allowed to operate in losing control of one’s temper and to be known for this habitual sin in a church leadership position is not something dealt with privately. It’s a public issue.)
    “You must tell everyone who knows about this that you trust the leadership implicitly and that we handled it well.” (though it’s still not “handled” to this day)
    “The only reason we needed to have a meeting is because you allowed yourself to be wounded.”

    He said much more, those were just some of the most telling nuggets I recorded. My point is that the financial improprieties and the moral failures were simply symptoms of a much greater issue, imo. The spiritual abuses, heavy handed “leadership” in the form of intimidation, among others, were the greater concern, in my opinion.

    Though Brian claims his issues came about in the last few months of his pastoring CCCR, the above conversation took place some 2+ years before. Brian was out of control long before the year 2011. I suggest that Brian doesn’t seem to be honest with himself or the public when he claims all his failures came upon him suddenly from overworking. He also claims his normal housing and car expenses were $200K in 2011. Anyone buying that?

    Brian may actually think this is true. Remember, every time he or his wife took someone with them out to breakfast, lunch, dinner, and for a few Starbucks run per day, with 4 kids in tow, they can call it ministry and the whole tab is picked up by church money. That adds up … though still not $200K. But if you add in his gift of a $3,000 or was it $6,000 purse (I truly cannot remember the amount just that it was very expensive) for his wife, along with very expensive wardrobes for a family of 6, and a house full of top-of-the-line appliances, and whatever else they bought, all this may play into Abeyta thinking these were simply his normal household expenses. But if he does believe this, then he has even greater issues with money and moral failure that should preclude him from returning to any sort of shepherding or teaching in a spiritual sense.

  74. I was there when Brian Michael’s was introduced as taking over Justin’s church, he seemed haughty at the time to me, Pastor Chuck was there if I remember correctly, I could not understand why this person was chosen as he seemed prideful, that was just my read, i had spoken to Justin a few times and even though he was little intellectual (meaning not everyone grasped what he was saying) he seemed genuine, my wife said his wife did also.

    Who knows what was really at play, but it did not sit well with me at the time.

    Again, people do not realize some of the things that have transpired, it has been kind of winked at.

  75. Abeyta admitted in a public meeting that his spending “got out of control” and that he had an “emotional affair” with one woman. Calvary Chapel Castle Rock was going to leave it at that till Abeyta started up a community prayer meeting, then Dave Love called a Sunday night meeting where he explained that it was well over $200K, I believe he said it was $260K in just the year 2011, that money over and above the salary and normal compensation package was used by Abeyta.

    Dave Love also stated that several other women came forward (I think he said it was 3 more) saying they were each in a relationship with Brian Abeyta. So the extent of the financial issue and the extent of the moral failure was never publicly admitted to. As you can see the above article that Michael posted, Abeyta minimizes the financial sin by saying that the $200K was used for his normal household and car expenses and fails to admit he didn’t pay the rent for the building in full to the tune of being $440K behind. Not sure if that number is just the rent or it reflects the unpaid taxes as well? Either way, that is a serious issue.

    The reason Brian Abeyta could do this so easily for so long is that there was no empowered leadership when he pastored CCCR. Elders have no overseeing role or any power to keep a pastor in check or to hold him accountable. They are trained to agree with the pastor or just move on quietly. The board could be fired by Abeyta if they disagreed with him, as well. I don’t know how he ended up operating without a board for 3 years, but that is against the law to do so in Colorado.

    There is no means by which the people can “take back their church” in the true to form CC moses model church. There’s no membership and no way to approach the pastor. The only option is to not give money and/or leave. The first option can go unnoticed because new people come in all the time. The second option is a huge disruption to one’s family and comes a great personal cost. Abeyta, and others, survive unscathed since the revolving door simply lets new people in while the old people are slipping out the back door. People are used up and there’s no effect on the unrepentant unaccountable pastor.

    Keep in mind that not only was Brian Michaels Abeyta’s pastor, but Abeyta spent a few years in Skip Heitzig’s church, as well. He’s learned from him who figured out how to overcome scandal without actually making things right with the people, imo.

    Many from CCCR were seriously damaged by what Abeyta did. Many are deeply wounded by Abeyta returning to start a new church so close to the CCCR home.

    Abeyta bought a home south of Castle Rock and drives right past the old CCCR on the highway on his way to his new church north of Castle Rock. Seems strange and makes one wonder what he’s thinking, what’s his plan? We do know he contacted the kids of the people who attend and work at CCCR when he was using social media to try and get people to come to his new church. This was a very painful stab to many.

    People in Castle Rock have been waiting for years for Abeyta to repent and make things right with the many he spiritually abused, or so that’s what many have told me. I know I’ve not received a call, or any attitude or action that demonstrated a true repentance desiring to make things right with me.

    The people I know who don’t want to talk openly about this say they have felt threatened by Abeyta, or intimidated, or bullied. Since I believe I saw these behaviors in him, I can believe their testimonies, they fit.

    Brian Abeyta, repent and do what you have to do to make things right with God and others.

  76. London said,

    “Why would anyone pay their own hard earned money to pay this guy’s tax bill on money he pilfered from another church?”

    I don’t know, either; but I do know that some of the families came from the old CCCR and followed him. Some of them have been clearly told what happened and why this discredits the man from the ministry, yet, they appear to like the attention he is giving them now. Abeyta knows how the “love bomb” a person he wants to use.

  77. Someone posted in the comments section of the first article a link to Calvary Chapel Abuse.

  78. I would respectively ask that folks here would stop saying things like, “He could be the janitor. I wonder if CC Castle Rock needs a janitor.”

    Being a janitor at a church is an HONOURABLE JOB.

    After 5 years living overseas as missionaries, we returned for 1 year , to help our eldest daughter settle into college. We were both willing to work any job to help with our finances during that year. He was given a part time job as church janitor. It is hard, but HONEST work.

    We returned overseas a year later to continue working amongst the urban poor.

  79. Curious why no official from CC has ever spoken out against Abeyta? Would it bring too much attention to the “Moses Model” which CC might be trying to distance themselves from now?

  80. Speaking of Brian Michaels, he too has returned to Colorado. He flew once a week from Las Vegas to his old stomping grounds in Co Springs to “teach” and has now shut down and abandoned the Vegas group formally moving back to Co Springs.

    I’m amazed these pastors think they are so great they can spend $1000 a week of other people’s money flying to teach a bible study.

    There’s another CC pastor from Colorado doing something similar, Jason VanDiver from CC Parker. He travels ever week back to So Cal and is probably planning his dropping the Parker folks sometime in the future like Michaels did to his Vegas crowd. But just pure speculation.

  81. This has been an interesting read, I was one of his original board members and can honestly say everything posted about Brian Abeyta is true and had been since the day he started at CCCR. I left CCCR over many of these same issues. The other original board member and his wife were the original book keepers and they left because of financial concerns which were played off as their issue with him. He is a master deceit and has hurt family after family, he is great at getting people in the door and making them feel welcome but when you start to know to much you are ushered out the door and everyone is convinced it was an attack on him. When I left I shared my concerns with Pastor Ed Taylor about many of the same issues and was basically just blown off. It saddens me that he is coming back into ministry and reading his comments you are all correct in saying he did not take responsibility for his actions, I found it interesting in some of the comments he used we instead of I, knowing him those statements show no remorse, in his mind he was the one that was hurt. My family left CCCR about 5 years ago, Brian said it all happened in the last few months? If you read this consider yourself warned!

  82. It’s like people going to fortune tellers. You get someone who has “people skills” and knows what to say and how to say it, and you have a money train. I won’t feel sorry for the folks who will continue to support men like this in ministry. I do wonder what their wives are like, to put up with all the dishonesty and hypocrisy. I guess all we can know is that they are very well dressed and drive new cars.

  83. Such a good looking young man, there is no way he could be guilty of the things he’s accused of

  84. Was this guy the reason Ed decided to play musical pastors and six of the minions complied?

  85. Ixtlan,

    Yes.

  86. Ixtlan, that was part of it.

    Ed is a story that makes Brian look silly. When documentation falls into place for that… watch out.

  87. Andrew,

    For about the 400th time…there is no “official” to speak to it other than Chuck.
    This is the perfect example of what I’ve been trying to say.
    If there was a connection from this church to a central organization they could possibly be on the hook for all that money.
    There is no legal connection, so the liability is with the specific church.
    That’s how the game works and that’s why we need to focus on the local level.

  88. Nonnie,
    Yes, janitorial work is honest work. I didn’t mean to denegrade the job. I meant that it’s what he’s worth and he couldn’t do any more harm. He could pay back the money he stole.

  89. Gary, I knew you weren’t taking a jab at janitors. I’m just so disgusted by what I have read and then folks saying this alleged thief should be a janitor at a church. There are some good men and women working hard doing that kind of work at churches. When done unto the Lord, that occupation is as honourable as any.
    Maybe a casino would be more fitting place for BA to work. If he stole from them, he would face some consequences.

  90. Farther up the thread we now have the testimony of a former board member that I approved.

  91. This verse comes to mind in regard to the Moses model that Chuck set up:

    Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

    I’m not saying Chuck is a child of Hell but his pastoral followers are set up so, and their followers may also qualify if the shoe fits.

    There will always be dupes and followers of men rather than followers of God as we see evidenced all over the CC landscape. If the money dries up there’s always new money.

  92. “Bob’s” comments are very useful, thanks.

    I’m as much or more concerned about the fact Calvary Chapel Leadership was made aware of the abuses…and only now outs the dirty laundry and is OK with such…now that Abeyta is a competitor up the road.

    Where was this new-found transparency when he was a CC Pastor?

  93. RB,

    I believe that they were pretty open with the congregation when he left.
    This is probably a warning to those who were unaware of the history.
    Still, would a similar announcement been made if Abeyta had set up shop in Oregon or North Dakota?
    Don’t know…
    I would also caution folks that comments should be factual, not speculative.
    Litigation is the new fad as RB is well aware…

  94. Bob, thank you for commenting. I must know you. I appreciate your being willing to state what you know.

    I concur that the issues with Bryan Abeyta were not something that popped up in the last few months. Even his former pastor in Calvary Chapel NewPort News said he was not ready to become a pastor when he left NewPort News to take over Calvary Chapel Castle Rock that was still under the wing of Brian Michael’s Calvary Chapel Colorado Springs. (I believe it was just as Brian Michaels was being exposed, himself.)

  95. There must be something in the water around the Colorado Springs area.

    But I hope not, because my son works for New Life Church!

  96. Sorry, but, the constant bringing up of “would this have happened if he had set up shop at X” is sheer speculation and no one is qualified to answer that here.

    Playing the “what if” game just brings out the people who speculate.
    Deal with it as it happened and be glad that someone blew the whistle.

  97. Michael @94

    Handling each failure/crisis on the part of a CC pastor is normally handled in secrecy. Abeyta forced the hand of Dave Love at every turn when he finally did speak out, once on a Sunday night service and yesterday in an online article for local news.

    They were not going to speak up even with the congregation at first. It wasn’t until Abeyta started a local ministry in Castle Rock that Dave Love then told the congregation (smaller crowd in a Sunday night) more details of Abeyta’s several love interests and the results of the accountants look at the finances for just the year 2011.

    Only after last weeks online article about Abeyta’s new Lone Tree church, called Beauty For Ashes, did Dave Love respond and another article was written giving the other side … the facts.

    Even after you exposed Brian Michaels years ago, it was not public info in Castle Rock, no where could we find out anything about him unless someone knew to look up Phoenix Preacher archives.

  98. Is the story about what happened at CCCR or is story that he opened a new church?

    If it’s about what happened at CCCR Chile has been telling that story for over a year.

    If it’s about him opening a new church – well, the 120 people who went with him from CCCR should be openly named, exposed and shamed. They are probably whack jobs themselves.

  99. Xenia, Brian Abeyta lives directly East of New Life Church. Spitting distance.

  100. Chile,

    Thank you for the clarification.
    I have a hard time keeping all this stuff in order… 🙂

  101. MLD,

    You hit the sweet spot.
    As I keep saying, no one can lead if no one is following.
    My guess is that he will follow the playbook he’s been trained in and he’ll outlast all of us.

  102. “Litigation is the new fad as RB is well aware…”

    Yes, well aware indeed 🙂

    BTW, the Appellate Court has accepted our Appeal and will hear it (officially, as of last Friday).

    BG’s looked pretty dejected lately. I think he thought they’d deny the appeal. Now he has to pony up a $75,000 retainer (minimum) for his Fresno Appellate Attorney in addition to what he’s had to fork over to his lower court attorney…and if he loses the Appeal, he’ll be on the hook for a much bigger bill from our attorneys. Appeals costs a fortune. Thank God for our liberal atheist attorney who is literally the Good Samaritan.

    God works in mysterious ways 🙂

    Chuck Smith says we are to “love”, “forgive” and “just let it go” and “leave it to the Lord” and that unforgiveness is “worse” than the original offense…I’m guessing BG didn’t get the memo. That “root of bitterness” and vindictive lawsuit is going to cost him a lot of Jesus* money that the good givers at Calvary Chapel Visalia probably intended for something other than funding expensive frivolous lawsuits meant to silence victims.

  103. Has anyone seen the trailer for the new movie World War Z? Have you seen the hordes climbing like ants? That’s what you’re seeing when you look at cult groups. That includes any charismatic leader. I know I’m a simp but that much is obvious to me. There will always be an endless stream of dupes to follow a charismatic leader. Always. Endless.

  104. Jesus is taking notes and He will avenge and judge this man for what he has done. I would hate to be in his shoes on that day.

  105. Jeff,

    Good to see you again.
    I’m teaching on that very thing this weekend…
    “For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.”

    The Holy Bible: English Standard Version. 2001 (2 Co 5:10). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.

  106. It doesnt matter what he did at the other church. He’s “figured out” that all of it was because he was “working too hard” back then. See, now all he has to do to not “fall into sin again” is to work less hard which gives him the perfect reason to not be spending hours meeting with people, studying, and whatever else they are paying him to do…
    The church certainly wouldn’t want him to “stumble” and “sin” again would they? Surely, they won’t ask him to be working “too hard” and cause him or his family any more distress.

    It’s the perfect con game really….

    In the meantime….the people of Castle Rock CC have to work hard every day to put some of that hard earned money into back paying for all his “irresponsible” acts which of course he now ‘knows” he won’t do again.

    Oh please.

  107. Oh, no! A modern version. Head for the hills! Hey- how come your post wasn’t stuck in moderation? hee hee Seriously, which is hard to do at present, I have an ESV and I even like it.

  108. Nonnie, I hope you are not upset with me over the jobs I think he would be better suited at. All of them are hard working jobs and would force him to be a better man. He would have a difficult time fleecing anyone in those jobs. However, he would be fired and jailed if he pulled embezzlement in a casino. What he did was not just moral failure it was a criminal act. Probably why he felt his corporate job back east was not a good fit. Figures know one will send him to prison in the evangelical bubble.

  109. London, that’s an interesting thought @ 107.

    I didn’t follow the man around to know how he exactly spent his time, but apparently it was common knowledge that he was rarely in his office, didn’t visit people except on rare occasions, and left the bulk of the heavy lifting to his assistant pastor.

    Based on what I saw, experienced and what others say their experience was, shepherding is not a word I would use to describe what went on. I’d say it was more the meetings where the money was given and then if you could get on the long waiting list you could get a quick counseling meeting after church on Wednesday and after church on Sunday, ONLY. When you limit the meeting with people to two times per week, when you are in town, that leaves a rough estimate of 52 slots a year for a church of somewhere around 1,500 to 2,000 people.

    Abeyta added two Saturday night services before the three on Sunday were maxed out. Some services after that were slim. He added work in hopes of adding giving units, at least that is what it appeared to be at a casual observance.

    So when Abeyta says he was working too hard those last few months, maybe he isn’t remembering that he was out of town for the majority of July through December that year. I think, though need to review the schedule I have filed away, that Abeyta was only in town 4 or 5 Sundays of those 6 months. Whatever the actual number is, it was not much. So if he sets it up that he needs to work even less … not sure that could even be called work at that point.

  110. As for the attendees of Abeyta’s new Beauty For Ashes church in Lone Tree, some certainly know better but choose to do so anyway.

    One impression I got was that some wanted a cool, feel good church, with a charismatic leader that was easy to listen to with decent music. As long as Abeyta can give them language to explain all the facts away, create confusion, and appeal to “grace” then they are happy to attend and fork over the cash. It is a wealthy area.

    I’m just grateful for the info to be public so a wise, discerning person can simply google Abeyta’s name and see the facts for themselves. I’d be bothered if people knew such issues but didn’t leave any clues for the innocent people walking in the door.

  111. “As for the attendees of Abeyta’s new Beauty For Ashes church in Lone Tree, some certainly know better but choose to do so anyway. ”

    There is the other side of the toxic equation. People like this deserve what they get and may they all stand together on judgment day with their chosen one.

  112. One of you mentioned how Abeyta switched to saying “We …” in terms of his failure. Here’s what I’ve observed:

    When Abeyta was accused of having an affair, he then accused his music minister of having an affair with his wife. (No evidence after looking into it, and no apology from Abeyta.)

    When Abeyta was accused of taking money wrongfully from the church, he then accused his assistant pastor and the music minister of stealing money. (No evidence after looking into it, and no apology from Abeyta.)

    When Abeyta had to speak before the church because he was caught, he used “we” to include his wife in the offenses as well as insinuated she was part of the cause. It was a red herring and inappropriate.

    It has been said that Abeyta spoke with one, possibly others, telling them that he was “protecting his wife” by taking the fall. (This statement in and of itself is throwing his wife under the bus and not protecting her; instead sharing such thoughts smears her character, disqualifies her from ministry if she hasn’t publicly repented … if it were true. Keep in mind, though, that no one but Abeyta has said -or implied- that she fell morally.)

    What I see is what seems to be a pattern of feigning repentance, but once you press for what he did wrong, he implicates others … even those most loyal and closest to him. I do not see any tangible evidence of repentance that is needful in a case like this. This, too, appears to be a long-term pattern.

    Even when Abeyta would tell us (personally) about his domestic violence that preceded his wife filing for divorce years ago, he would seem to be saying he was repentant; but before long he would subtly implicate his wife and focus on her response to the separation pointing out she did not handle it the best. Skillfully, imo, he would again feign repentance, but leave you with a picture of his wife in sin. It was always uncomfortable even when he spoke of this from the pulpit. It was just subtle enough to keep people confused and left with questions they didn’t feel they could ask without repercussions from Abeyta.

    I’m saying I see patterns and they aren’t good. I’m saying I would not trust the repentance talk, because there is a history of no follow-through with actions.

  113. Every thing I’ve written here is my opinion.

  114. Jeff Jones said, “Jesus is taking notes and He will avenge and judge this man for what he has done. I would hate to be in his shoes on that day.”

    I don’t think so any longer. I think Abeyta will be extended mercy on that day, as will all of us. The paradoxical collection of writings called the bible seems to say so in several parts.

  115. There will be a judgment according to works.

    “For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.”
    (2 Corinthians 5:10 ESV)

    He will render to each one according to his works:”
    (Romans 2:1–6 ESV)

    “Why do you pass judgment on your brother? Or you, why do you despise your brother? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God; for it is written, “As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.”
    So then each of us will give an account of himself to God.”
    (Romans 14:10–12 ESV)

    Rev. 22:12   “Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense with me, to repay each one for what he has done.

    God will be merciful in regard to salvation, but there will be a reckoning.
    That couldn’t be any clearer.

    Again, this is not a thread for such discussions.

  116. Happens all over SP from Menifee left and was not allowed back, after a year so minions start a work next freeway down and continue the drain. He is their “teaching pastor” Sheep are so gullible!

  117. Chili, in your #113, you state, “no evidence after looking into it”, who was looking into it? From what we are seeing, part of the problem is that there was no accountability. You also say, “he got caught”, who caught him? It seems as thought this guy was doing as he pleased without a Board.

  118. drummin, the guy in Menifee left quite a mess as well from what I underestand.

  119. Becky, NO you did not, nor did anyone else in particular offend me. I just read a few posts (didn’t even note who wrote them) about janitors and commented that I didn’t think this “allegedly” lying thief deserved to be in the same company with honest, hard working janitors. That was all I was trying to point out. None of you personally offended me.
    I knew what you were saying, but just wanted to stick up for the HONEST hard working men and women who do janitorial work, trying to make a living for their families. Blessings!

  120. Gary Galbraith…CC Menifee
    Carlos Ayub…CC Delta
    On and on and on”…….

    “The horror…the horror.” Colonel Kurtz

  121. If you look at his FB page, he is blessed, blessed, blessed!
    Everything is just hunky dory. Meanwhile, the CCCR has back rent to pay.

  122. the emperor has no clothes but he does have followers who believe he has.

  123. I don’t want my Nonnie mad at me.

    ♥♥♥♥♥

  124. Nonnie is certainly not mad at anyone here. I sincerely apologise if I gave that impression . This article is very upsetting! I’m so disgusted by this and that this man has a large audience all over again. Sickening.

  125. #100 Chile
    Do you have an address? Brian tweeted on June 1 a picture of his new home. The numbers on the house is 2332, but I don’t have a street name. I thought maybe you’d know (someone on CCA suggested I ask you).

  126. Alright, that is creepy.

  127. Is “creepy” directed to me? FYI: I need the address so I can look up the title records. I’m gathering information on this guy to file an IRS complaint against him bright and early Monday morning (for ‘inurement’, tax fraud, no board, etc.), and I’ll also be filing a complaint with the District Attorney in Colorado as well. I don’t understand why this hasn’t been done sooner? Figures it takes a woman to do a man’s job. Wimps! 😉 Seriously, 2 years go by and nobody blinks an eye? But when the guy opens up another church down the street, everybody freaks out because he’s in your hood. Welcome to the hood.

  128. gangsta!

  129. Someone has dived off the deep end of the internet.

  130. No Derek, I’m just tired of hearing about all these CC pastors who are so disgusting. And nobody does anything about it. I don’t mind being a part of the sewing circle and airing out our dirty laundry amongst other believers, but when a wolf has clearly invaded the church, there are ways to deal with this, legally. Maybe the fact that I use to work in the arraignment court as a court clerk and also was a paralegal for years, I just tend to lean on the side of the law. Now I’m a broker, but I sure miss being a paralegal. Lots of hard work, but now it may pay off. I’ve already gone after four wolves. Let the pieces fall where they may. Don’t be offended with me, please. If anything, give me more names and I’ll do the homework and file the complaints. I sleep fine.

  131. I really need that street name, if anyone in Colorado knows it. I’m in Oregon.

  132. Laurie, this is what comes of letting your life be consumed by this stuff.
    Really, look at how it looks coming on here and asking for the man’s address.
    I am sure you have some beef with CC, like many on here, but it isn’t worth all this.
    Too many come to just make this a place they can relive the burn they experienced at a CC.
    But the burners don’t care and nothing will be accomplished by the IRS either.
    Does no one know how to start a healing process anymore? It doesn’t involve picking at the scab.

  133. Sounds like your a part of the gang, I mean, check out your profile picture. Is that a gangsta holding a gun? And what are you talking about when you write “healing process”. Do you mean for the wolf or for the church? Whose side are you on?

  134. Yeah, I guess I am the gangsta. On the wrong side of everything. No rest for the wicked I suppose.
    I speak some reason at times, but no one seems to ever listen.
    Well, except people on other blogs.
    That was not aimed at you.

    My apologies.

  135. I may chime in on the Participation Required and Prayer thread, but I need a break from some of this.
    When you have MTM parsing our every comment on here on RB’s blog (Which, just asking RB, is the convo not stimulating enough there?), the lady who asks for the address of Brian A on here calling me “weird”…well, I think that calls for a little break from the craziness.

  136. Derek,

    I understand.
    My hope would be that RB will not allow that to continue, but I have no control over that.

  137. It’s cool Michael, it actually doesn’t bother me that much. But it does show some people’s true nature there.
    I just need a break for a while. I’ll be reading, but commenting little.

  138. Laurie, the I.R.S. doesn’t have time to go after this guy. Their top brass are too busy reciting the 5th up on the hill. You know, for abusing their power against conservative groups like the Tea Party. 😉

    Maybe you should be filing complaints against the crooks and abusers up there too, LOL

  139. Also, I think that the new church he started will probably continue to grow and multiply. Most people just dig in when and if they read stories like the one posted here about him. It’s sad but true. I’ve been witnessing this phenomenon for about 35 years years now.

  140. whoa…

  141. One other thing about this story since I’m a little late to the party. The current Pastor at Castle Rock CC said the following regarding sending Abeyta a 1099 for 200K:

    “Biblically, that’s what we saw as the best thing to do,” Love said. “We didn’t want to cause any hardship for them. As a body of believers, we needed to move forward.”

    In addition, it is Abeyta, and evidently Pastor Love’s view that the matter is settled:

    “We were both in agreement that bantering back and forth is not glorifying to the Lord,” Abeyta wrote in a June 26 email. “I am deeply sorry for how my actions affected the innocent people that we loved so dearly. We have put layers of protection around us this time, to ensure those things do not happen ever again.”

    Isn’t this a situation where a local matter between two parties was settled locally?

  142. “Carlos Ayub…CC Delta”

    That’s the one.

  143. Re: Scott @142
    Below I have two quotes from the article that explain that the agreement not to banter back and forth was one that Abeyta and his wife agreed together on. Abeyta is accused of leaving CCCR $440K in debt to the landlord. I do not believe that CCCR thinks that Abeyta has done what he should do to evidence repentance.

    “Abeyta also consistently failed to pay the full monthly rental amount, Love and Weston said, leaving the church $440,000 in arrears with its landlord.”

    “Abeyta said he renegotiated the Castle Rock church’s lease agreement, and could provide documentation to refute Calvary Chapel’s claims. He did not do so, saying he and his wife, Jenipher, prayed about the best way to respond.
    ‘We were both in agreement that bantering back and forth is not glorifying to the Lord,’ Abeyta wrote in a June 26 email.”

  144. Laurie, I don’t know the street. Abeyta just revealed the location on his Facebook when he described where his house was in relation to the fire that had him evacuated recently.

  145. Abeyta said,

    “I am deeply sorry for how my actions affected the innocent people that we loved so dearly. We have put layers of protection around us this time, to ensure those things do not happen ever again.”

    Someone who attended Abeyta’s church in Castle Rock just pointed out that when Abeyta puts on “layers of protection around us” that it might mean something different than what one sees at first glance.

    First reading: I assume Abeyta is referring to incorporating accountability this time around.

    Second reading, if one is familiar with how Abeyta appears to parse words/meanings: Abeyta may still see himself as the victim (as we have seen him do before) therefore, he may actually mean that he needs to protect himself from those who would harm him better than he did before.

    Since Abeyta has not made broken relationships right, when he says he’s deeply sorry for how his actions affected the “innocent people”, it sounds -again- like he’s not sorry for how his actions hurt those he thinks were disloyal to him … “not innocent.” I don’t know, but it’s very possible considering how he’s carefully crafted his words before, imo.

  146. Re: Covered @118 said,

    “Chili, in your #113, you state, “no evidence after looking into it”, who was looking into it? From what we are seeing, part of the problem is that there was no accountability. You also say, “he got caught”, who caught him? It seems as thought this guy was doing as he pleased without a Board.”

    1. The Assistant Pastor, Joey McKee, called the board for help since Abeyta was AWOL for months. Another CC pastor from Arizona actually flew up to Castle Rock to present evidence of Abeyta’s waywardness (I assume it had something to do with the women who came forward saying they were in a relationship with Abeyta, but it was something that was disqualifying for him to remain in ministry.)

    2. When McKee called the board members he discovered none of them were on the board anymore. Abeyta had been operating without a board for 3 years. It is my understanding that McKee then called the local big CC pastors: Ed Taylor, Gino Geraci and Dave Love. That may not be exactly how that happened, but somehow they were contacted and ended up “looking into” who stole what and who had an affair with whom? The people who were accused by Abeyta of having an affair were asked to hand over their cell phones to be searched to see if there was any evidence of impropriety. Don’t know what else they did, though.

    3. With the finances an independent auditor was called in to “look into it.”

    So the short answer is that it was the assistant pastor aided by local Calvary Chapel pastors, along with an Arizona CC pastor who participated in “looking into it”. NO, no one had real authority to do anything considering how CC’s are governed. Some even say that when the other CC pastors moved in and had Abeyta forced out, sign over assets, that it was a franchise grab, or an asset grab, or a forced take-over. But they had Abeyta over a barrel considering he broke the law and they could have him sent to jail for what he did financially.

    If no one had the goods on Abeyta having broken the law, he could still be there based on how CC’s are governed.

  147. Michael,
    It seems you are in the thick of things. I feel like I’m sitting in a room with blinders on.

  148. Thank you Chile for your #148. This is a horrible situation. Your input helps to fill in the gaps.

  149. It has been brought to my attention the obvious issue with the following (read and I’ll explain):

    “Abeyta also consistently failed to pay the full monthly rental amount, Love and Weston said, leaving the church $440,000 in arrears with its landlord. ”

    “Abeyta said he renegotiated the Castle Rock church’s lease agreement, and could provide documentation to refute Calvary Chapel’s claims. He did not do so, saying he and his wife, Jenipher, prayed about the best way to respond.
    “We were both in agreement that bantering back and forth is not glorifying to the Lord,” Abeyta wrote in a June 26 email. ”

    If Abeyta is telling the truth and has the paperwork to prove he renegotiated the lease agreement, then he has a moral obligation to provide the paperwork so the landlord can’t steal from CCCR now. The paperwork should stay with those paying the rent and not be in Abeyta’s possession, rather CCCR’s possession.

    Therefore, if Abeyta is telling the truth then it would be sin for him to withhold the paperwork, thereby causing CCCR to have to bear a crushing load of debt due to a corrupt landlord, who should be held accountable.

    If Abeyta cannot produce the paperwork, then he should be held accountable for lying, which should be held up as a proof of his lack of true repentance.

  150. Your welcome, Covered. You can understand my passion, and the passion of others, when we’ve seen what can happen -and how helpless everyone is- when things go south in a Moses Model leadership style.

    The only advice we were given was to quietly vote with our feet. Meanwhile, new unsuspecting “giving units” arrived while others ran wounded and bleeding out the back door. Just spent the day, yesterday, with yet another couple who says they can’t bear to walk in another church after what they experienced with Abeyta.

    Abeyta is so charismatic, so smooth, love bombs effectively, figures out what people want (i.e. attention, importance, title, position, ability to say they are on the inner circle, etc…) and gives it to them to buy them. It’s so subtle, so hard to distinguish a difference from a God-fearing, God-loving, fellow man-loving person and Abeyta’s sort, at first glance. After one realizes they’ve been had, their money has been taken and not used with integrity, and they are dispensable regardless of the years of loyalty and hard, sacrificial work given in service to him, then they are crushed, disillusioned, wondering why God didn’t stop Abeyta, or them … and are then very skeptical and fearful of anyone else in the ministry. Abeyta’s work is so destructive, because he’s so effective at pulling the wool over people’s eyes, in my humble opinion.

  151. Chile, I’ll be filing an IRS complaint against Brian Abeyta tomorrow. if you have any information/documents/e-mails, that you think I should have, please send it to me (FatherlessChildrenintheChurch@gmail.com). Thank you for helping me out.

  152. …or if ANYONE has documentation, please send it to my e-mail address. Thank you.

  153. Laurie,
    Where do you see an IRS issue? He was given a 1099 for the funds he took, which obligates him for the taxes. I don’t get it.

  154. He may have been given a 1099 for the funds he took, but during the time he was operating a non-profit org, he had legal responsibilities on how he handled that money. I have found that most Moses Model pastors are guilty of inurement. And from what I’m reading, Brian is guilty of inurement, plus he didn’t have a board, which is legally required when operating a 501(c)(3) tax exempt org. Also, when you solicit money in any form, and don’t use it for its intended purpose, it’s called theft by deception. Not paying the rent is a huge red flag of possible theft by deception. But that’s a legal crime that will filed with the district attorney. I don’t have tons of time to focus on this guy, but I’m willing to help the church the best I can.

  155. Laurie – LOL – you ever hear of Benny Hinn and the rest of the thieves at TBN etc. The IRS has tried and can’t touch those guys.

    As far as the board is concerned, I am sure that on paper he had a board. I doubt he ever filed anything with the Secretary of State in CO removing names.

    One thing I would be careful of is that the corporation is in violation and not Brian individually – which in turn would just bring more grief back on CCCR.

  156. Lutheran man speak wisely.

  157. MLD, the fact that more grief could be brought onto CCCR is irrelevant to folks like Laurie. She’s on a mission from God now, at least in her own mind.

  158. aka: White Fang, smashing all the spiders, cockaroaches too 😉
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gJfuWhMQ3Tc&feature=youtube_gdata_player
    (I couldn’t resist, borrowed it from F. Lee Bailey on CCA)
    Blessings!

  159. Laurie, I appreciate your efforts. I don’t know tax law, but we do know Abeyta broke the law by not paying the taxes along with not paying the rent in full.

  160. Scott, please go easy on Laurie. She’s, at least, trying to do something, where lot’s of other people haven’t. The lack of action by others has propped up Abeyta to continue fleecing the flock and damaging people spiritually, imo.

  161. We each have the right to up to 30% of what the government recovers under the IRS whistleblower program.

    If I knew MLD’s real name, I would hand him over in a minute. 🙂

    But seriously: You must be sure that you are doing what is right. Something like this would require really being confident of that.

    The scripture strongly – strongly and repeatedly – advises us to avoid legal entanglement if at all possible. The “last farthing” and all.

    The older you get, the more sense that makes.

  162. PP Vet, I appreciate your kind tone in giving wise advice.

  163. Question: Can a person report someone for not paying taxes? For running a non-profit, accepting donations to pay the rent and then not doing so?

    I’m wondering if this is very different from taking someone to court? Is is just simply reporting? Then the burden is on the IRS to prove wrongdoing, which they are motivated to do since they would be the ones defrauded.

  164. London said,

    “…this guy’s own words show what kind of guy he is.
    Why would anyone pay their own hard earned money to pay this guy’s tax bill on money he pilfered from another church?”

    Exactly!

    And if he’s lying about having renegotiated the rental agreement, then there’s enough evidence to show people that Abeyta is currently (as it looks from his own words) deceiving, it’s not just something he repented of, covered in grace, in the past. He says he’s got protections in place, but from what I’m reading, it seems those protections may not at all be about accountability (a word that is notably missing from his vocabulary,) but rather about making sure he isn’t a “victim” again.

    If this is true, it would fit with his history of saying he’s repented of something, but then following it up with stories, innuendoes, and subtle hints that he was actually the victim in all of it. He’s very good at this!

    Domestic violence: Abeyta blamed on his family growing up was just a rough bunch and he didn’t know it would hurt his wife.

    Virginia CC Pastor said Abeyta wasn’t ready to become a pastor: Abeyta blamed the pastor for being too intellectual and hinted he was jealous of Abeyta’s giftings.

    CCCR bookkeeper quit citing financial improprieties by Abeyta: Abeyta smeared his character and insinuated bookkeeper had “issues.”

    Abeyta was AWOL from CCCR, lying about reasons he was gone (proof given by Arizona CC pastor,) rent not paid in full, taxes not paid, 4 women say they were in relationship with him, stories of spiritual abuse abound …: Abeyta blamed his successful church endeavors had him working too hard which led to sinning like this only in his last few months

    Abeyta accused of taking money from CCCR: Abeyta blamed assistant pastor and worship leader of taking the money.

    Abeyta accused of moral failure with having relationships outside of his marriage: Abeyta blamed his wife for not not being there for him, and blamed her by accusing her of having an affair with the worship leader.

    I’ve yet to hear of Abeyta owning a sin, without blaming others, and showing repentance by his follow-up actions. I’ve yet to see Abeyta do any work to try and mend broken relationships.

  165. I posted some new stuff on CCA. It’s worth reading. And I’m so proud of the folks on this blog who are standing up for what is right, boldly speaking the truth in love. I made sure to copy these two blogs that are talking about Brian Abeyta and attached them to the IRS complaint. It takes months for them to investigate this guy, so be patient. I will definitely let this blog know if and when I hear anything. Pray Hard.

  166. I can see that here and CCA, the biggest problem seems to be the “Moses Model”. I can tell you for sure that at Calvary Chapel Castle Rock now, like Horizon Christian Fellowship before, under the leadership of Dave Love, it is working out very well. There is a board now, the board is totally accessible to all, and there is accountability, I appreciate the desire to pursue Abeyta at his new cash cow, BFA, but I sure would appreciate if over zealous efforts not come back to CCCR. We are recovering very well in Castle Rock, and would not like our body dragged into the division again. I think the CC leadership handled it properly. They sent Abeyta off and took on his mess. It was not an “asset grab” and if you think that is all Calvary Chapel are, check your heart. When Abeyta came out publicly in the first article (some items were removed after letters to the reporter): http://m.ourcoloradonews.com/mobile/lonetree/news/new-church-opens-in-lone-tree/article_c5145f16-d830-11e2-b823-001a4bcf887a.html and lied about certain facts, the reporter did her job and went to meet with David Love. Then there was transparency and truth. If you want this to be about Abeyta, then go for it, but if you want to make it about CCCR or Calvary Chapels in general, then please understand, YOU are the ones causing the division and strife. Not everyone sitting in a CC is a mindless sheep with no sense of right or wrong. There is accountability from the body.

  167. Frozen Man, what does that accountability look like in real terms? How exactly can anyone in the body, without membership, hold any leader in CCCR accountable?

    The Body/attenders of CCCR were powerless when Brian was in charge. Even the other leaders in the church had no power when they had proof that Brian was out-of-control, which is why they called the board, which turned out to be nonexistent thereby forcing them to call area CC pastors for help. Even their reaching out to CCCM and CCOF, now CCA, didn’t get them any help.

    Are you saying that the area CC pastors had some power, jurisdiction over CCCR? If so, please describe how that works, where it’s written?

    What has Dave Love done to bring in real accountability?

    You say Dave now has a board, but can Dave fire board members if they disagree with him? Can anyone fire Dave? How can an attender affect change if problems in leadership have not been addressed?

  168. Board Members of CCCR:

    Pastor Dave Love – Contact
    Pastor Ed Taylor – Contact
    Dave Wurst – Contact
    Pastor Dan Layne – Contact
    Dave Weston – Contact

    Love and Taylor protect each other (alleged based on past deals they’ve made with & for one another.)
    Layne is a known “Yes Man”,(an opinion I’ve heard repeated throughout the years. What did Layne ever do to stand up to or stop Abeyta, all the years Layne was in leadership?)
    Those three out vote Wurst & Weston.

    Based on the outward appearance of this board, it doesn’t look like there is actual accountability.

  169. #168 The FrozenMan
    “…I can tell you for sure that at Calvary Chapel Castle Rock now, like Horizon Christian Fellowship before, under the leadership of Dave Love, it is working out very well. There is a board now, the board is totally accessible to all, and there is accountability…”
    the last sentence: “…there is accountability from the body…”

    Really?

    I posted this on CCA, #30
    “…Colorado’s business registry proves that Calvary Chapel Castle Rock is currently delinquent for failure to file their period report with the State, which was actually due 02.28.13 (4 months ago). Pastor David Love registered himself with the State as the new agent for CCCR on 02.29.12. Does he not have a church administrator to handle church business? He’s going to sink the church (like his predecessor) if he doesn’t dot his i’s and cross his t’s. I feel so bad for the folks who attend this church…”

  170. Frozen Man,

    “Not everyone sitting in a CC is a mindless sheep with no sense of right or wrong.”

    Some who post on here are current CC pastors, current CC attenders, former CC attenders, former assistant CC pastors, former CC pastors, former lawyer for Chuck Smith, former CC board member, etc… I think we have a pretty good idea of what it’s like to be in a CC, starting with the host of this blog.

  171. The FrozenMan,
    Consider this, why is a little ol’ lady in Oregon able to prove “unaccountability”? Just because you say there is, doesn’t mean it is true. Prove it to us. As the church, let’s hold Dave Love’s feet to the fire to make sure he’s on the up and up. I want your church to be the new role model for Colorado on how to be the new James1:27 church. i want to hear how you’re caring for the fatherless children in the church and the widows. Make me proud.

    If you can’t be a James1:27 church, I can help:
    Here’s my link:
    FatherlessChildrenintheChurch.wordpress.com

  172. Laurie,
    “Consider this, why is a little ol’ lady in Oregon able to prove “unaccountability”? ”

    I think it is funny that a little ol lady is meddling into the affairs of a church in Colorado.

    How would your church hold up to outside scrutiny? Would you mind posting your church’s website so I can look it over?

  173. One still stuck in moderation

  174. The good book says don’t go gittin’ youseff mixed up in nuttin what ain’t your no-never-mind.

    It’s like grabbing a stray dog by the ears as it goes by: there is no possible outcome that will make your life better.

  175. #175 Martin Luther’s Disciple
    “…i think it is funny that a little ol lady is meddling into the affairs of a church in Colorado…”

    Funny? Meddling? The church is no longer universal? (i don’t remember the Supreme Court ruling on separation of state to state)

    It wasn’t me who publicized the sins of Brian Abeyta. I just know that I have a set of skills that enables me to factually expose wolves in sheep’s clothing. Exposing to who, you ask? The church – not just those folks in Colorado. We are all part of the same body of believers. Well, I’m not too sure about you now because you’re willing to condone the behaviors of this wolf instead of publicly admonishing him for the sins he has committed against “the church”.

    Then we can argue, does a pastor deserve a second chance if he repents? I say a big fat no. But obviously you’re cut from a different piece of cheese and would allow such a man the opportunity to be a repeat offender.

    Blessings!

  176. Not sure we’d be worse off if we had 1000 Laurie’s rooting out pastoral indiscretion.

    Either that or better church & ministry Yelp coverage. 🙂

  177. Laurie,
    It seems to me that your beef is with the church that told him to take a hike.

  178. Laurie, just for the record, we have not seen evidence of Abeyta’s supposed repentance. But even if he does repent he should still never be allowed to handle money ever again. He also has disqualified himself from ministry leadership. He should humble himself and quietly go about the hard work of making right the wrongs he’s committed. Of the many he alleged spiritual abuses he committed, some I witnessed, it will take him a lifetime to do what he needs to do to make things right with many people … and well he should.

    As for CCCR, there were and are issues. Several who were trained by Abeyta, are still in CCCR leadership. They, too, have much to make right with others and are not just victims of Abeyta. And remember that Abeyta was able to to what he was able to do because of how CC is governed. So the issues at CCCR are the issues of the Body of Christ.

  179. Amen Castle Rock! Well said.

    I will continue to pray for CCCR and the leadership. Please refer to my comment #171 – someone needs to give Dave Love a heads up that he is delinquent in filing his paperwork with the state. I don’t know what the ramifications are (i.e., fines, revoking 501(c)(3) tax exempt status, etc.). Maybe you or someone on this blog can give him a call. Blessings.

  180. Laurie, I’m sure The Frozen Man will tell Dave.

  181. Laurie hope all is well, having been on the fringe of the Corporation for years now I can understand your frustration and willingness to get some type of justice for those hurt. That cant happen unless someone higher up the corporate latter decides to take an interest and it benefits their bottom line. I E encroaching in on said leaders franchise area. The fact that this man is trying to re-brand himself is quite common and usually quite lucrative which of course justifies what ever he does.

    I would hate to see you become frustrated and disillusioned with the faith because of how the business side of it is run sometimes. The second the revenue stream dries up this type of situation will not happen. Of course that is impossible so it sort of not worth mentioning. I tried to help out a situation from with in the local group that was part of a mega corp with international ties. At the time I was under the impression we were a family and all that other nonsense, I have sense repented of that heresy.

  182. brian,
    You said “…encroaching in on said leaders franchise area.” What will happen when Chuck Smith is gone? Greg Laurie’s franchise will be seen more as a threat to Brian Broderson’s franchise. What do you think will happen?

  183. Love and Taylor don’t “protect each other”. They are friends and they are Christian friends and they hold each other accountable and lift each other up. If either Ed or Dave stepped in it, they would be the first to call each other with correction and accountability. Layne is a good man, and when the board was secretly removed by Abeyta in the past, all these people had to go on was what they were told by Abeyta. You can’t hold the sins of Abeyta against Love.
    Laurie #170, while I appreciate your attention to fine details when it comes to the filing of periodic reports, I own a business, and I get behind on the minutia myself, Love was in leadership at Horizon Christian Fellowship for many years. Go back and check and see how they did? See if all the details were handled. I am betting they were, which is why he was there for 17 years.
    Castle Rock #171, SOME WHO post on here are… I think you have a pretty good idea of what it is like to be in the CC you were in, at the time you were there. Again, you can’t hold the sins of the bad guys against the guys who are doing it right.
    Laurie #172, It’s nice to hear what YOU want for Colorado and for this church body in particular. I can only hope that at YOUR church in Oregon, they are doing what YOU want. There is much outreach here at CCCR in many areas, and when a need comes to the church, REGARDLESS of the nature, the body gets involved to meet the need. I can appreciate that YOUR focus might be in a PARTICULAR area of needs, but I believe that we should try to meet as many NEEDS as are presented. Thanks MLD #173.
    Laurie #176 The church IS indeed universal, but the needs of different bodies vary. Some areas have different needs and while we concentrate on some areas, it is not to the exclusion of others. Find me widows and orphans in Castle Rock who are not having their needs met because of the neglect of Cavary Chapel Castle Rock, and I will take it to leadership to make sure it is addressed. Rom 14:4 Who are you to judge another’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand.
    I appreciate you having your skill set to expose wolves. Maybe Hank Hannegraff could use your help. Calvary Castle Rock is all set. Thank you. But I do agree with you about fallen pastors being restored. That’s a big no.. http://www.gty.org/resources/articles/a256
    Castle Rock #179, The leaders they may have been improperly trained at CCCR are being retrained. They have not been disqualified and and if they have a calling, their gifts will be used properly. The issues THIS blog and couple of other have with INDIVIDUAL CC’s do NOT apply to all CC’s. The federal government does all inclusive sweeps, throwing out the baby with the bathwater. Our job as Christians is to address individuals and bring people to salvation.
    Laurie and Castle Rock #180 & 181. I will let him know. He may be unaware. As I mentioned before, the notification to submit periodic report comes in an email, and the church has recently changed mail servers. Easily missed and easily remedied.
    My / our responsibilities as members or our local body and the corporate church are to reach the hurting and lead them to Christ. Many were hurt by Abeyta here, and much outreach is being done on an individual basis to at least let people hurt know they are loved. IF, and this is a big IF, a leadership problem develops at CCCR again, there is and will be accountability from and to the body.

  184. Laurie,
    Check the Colorado Secretary of State website: Statement Curing Delinquency 06/30/2013 06/30/2013 06/30/2013 11:37 PM 20131385747
    Accountability….

  185. “My / our responsibilities as members or our local body and the corporate church are to reach the hurting and lead them to Christ. Many were hurt by Abeyta here, and much outreach is being done on an individual basis to at least let people hurt know they are loved. IF, and this is a big IF, a leadership problem develops at CCCR again, there is and will be accountability from and to the body.”

    This is very heartening! So glad to know you’re doing this, Frozen Man

  186. The Frozen Man: I appreciate you taking the time to respond (#186). I think i can speak on behalf of most folks on this blog that with men like you in leadership at CCCR, we are reassured that OUR church is being cared for, specifically the fatherless children and the widows (as instructed in James 1:27 – an undefiled church is one that cares about these).

    Please forgive me for being over zealous about my stance these days, but it is only after the experiences I had with my pastor, Pastor Jon Courson, that I have every right to feel the way I do. My story is on CCA (and I’ve since started a facebook exposing Jon Courson and many other wolves in sheep’s clothing). I am convinced that church these days is a business for most men who are otherwise unable to care for themselves and their families. Proof regarding Brian Abeyta is his client/attorney relationship with the old landlord, whose practice is establishing his clients (like Brian Abeyta) in non-profit businesses, regardless if its a church or another kind of business (see my CCA comments, #39 and 65 and especially 55 – last paragraph). If indeed Abeyta owed all this back rent, why didn’t the landlord (aka: his attorney) take him to court for the money? Someone is lying. There’s no proof of anything, just a bunch of men claiming this or that happened. Grant it, Brian Abeyta should NOT be a pastor of any church, so why is he? Get rid of the guy. There are legal ways to do this. Let me know if you need help with this.

    And I do feel the same about my old pastor, Jon Courson. After this case against Jon Courson recently surfaced, he was so angry that I was exposing him to the church, he did a study titled: “get your cotton pickin paws out of my pea patch” His pea patch? My response to this teaching is on my facebook page ‘Fatherless Children in the Church’.
    Jon’s family empire grows because the church has been dooped by this guy, well, not everyone, evident by the fact that he put his kid in charge of the church while he disappeared for years in hopes of becoming the next kingpen of the Calvary Chapel empire. But I guess that didn’t work out the way he intended, and so he just returned to Oregon like nothing happened, reclaimed the business (aka: a church) from his son, and kicked his son to the curb (not really, he’s now an assistant pastor in California). Even Jon’s old Administrator Web Staunton sent me a message explaining why he quit the church. It’s all about money with Jon Courson, always has been, his church, his business goals, building up his family empire. He sure didn’t give a rip about the fatherless kid who lived across the street from him for 15 years, my kid. I’ll never understand the abuse by him and his family and the leadership, the men in the church were like a biker gang, you couldn’t ride with them if you didn’t fit in. Only recently because I threw up the red flag against Jon and exposed his evils, now I’m hearing other stories of single moms and fatherless children that also attended Jon Courson’s church (a real sad story is on CCA, comment #132 in the story about me and Jon Courson). All I care about now is that the church (not mine, not yours, but God’s church) takes care of my sisters and her children. That’s all I care about. Be the James 1:27 church God demands. By the way, exposing wolves is a side job for me. If you don’t take care of my sisters and her children, then to me your a wolf, caring only for yourself and then I have no problem exposing folks like Jon Courson, Mike Whitman, Brian Abeyta and others.

    For the longest time, I kept quoting scripture as my defense, to support my position in anything. I can go back to doing that if you want me to, but it seems folks wanted to hear what I had to say, and why I’m even on the blogs. Don’t be offended with me. I’m not here to offend anyone. Just take care of my sisters and her children and I’m good.
    Blessings!

  187. Laurie,

    I have to caution you that I find your accusations against Courson to border on the ridiculous and your demand for restitution to be close to extortion.
    Your facts about his time in Costa Mesa are so skewed as to be humorous.
    You are speculating and I know the facts don’t match your speculation.
    I live in his backyard…and while it’s well established that I’m a long time critic of Jon, I do so on the basis of things I can document.
    I will not allow your crusade here.

  188. Let me be even more clear.
    If Jon Courson wanted CCCM, the board there would think it was an early Christmas.
    Jon didn’t leave because he wasn’t popular, he had to leave because he was too popular…and that didn’t set well with the current head pastor who has no desire to have a successor.

  189. Thank you, Michael, for setting that straight.

  190. It is not the pastors job to raise the children of single parents in the church.
    It is the pastors and elders responsibility to equip the saints for the work of the ministry and then for the saints to do that ministry.
    If that ministry isn’t taking place, then the whole Body is responsible.
    One of my oldest and dearest friends is a grandmother who has raised two of her daughters children alone…and her estimation of ACF is far different than yours.

  191. CK,

    You’re welcome.
    Anyone with any inside knowledge of the situation at all is aware of the reality of that situation.

  192. I have no doubt about Jon Courson’s imperfections, along with my own. That said, I have had several personal encounters with him over the last 25 years, and he has never been anything other than gracious and generous, and without selfish reason, as I am a nobody in his world. Over the years, I’ve come to see some of his teachings as a bit off-kilter, but he will always hold a special place in my heart.

  193. CK,

    His teachings are more than a bit off kilter… 🙂
    He is beloved outside the area and obviously by many in his church.
    Long time observers here in the community have a much different view and for many good reasons.
    I could write a book…but it wouldn’t include his failure to raise other peoples kids.
    He had a family of his own and a mega church.

  194. Having attended ACF for 16 years and served in ‘leadership’ for several, I know both the church and leadership have warts…as do I as well. I left in 2000 because my taste in “tea” had changed as did the needs of my family. I’m not a cheerleader for Courson or ACF nor am I an outspoken critic…just a veteran who moved on. CCGP, on the other hand… 😉

  195. Frozen man, there is a serious allegation that Ed Taylor was informed of an allegation that an adult was molesting kids in the CC Castle Rock Sunday School class, when they were helping in the class. They claim Ed protected the abuser and this couple was forced to leave leadership and told to remain silent. Were/are you aware of these allegations? Is this true to your knowledge? Did Ed Taylor report this to authorities?

  196. Michael, why are you not addressing and asking about the most serious allegation in the whole Abeyta situation?

  197. RB,

    I don’t recall the allegation, but if it can be documented it will be addressed.
    For that serious of an allegation those making it must step forward.

  198. RB,
    “They claim Ed protected the abuser and this couple was forced to leave leadership and told to remain silent.”

    Did these people call the cops when they left? If not, they have “the blood” on their hands.

    Perhaps all CC laity are just as guilty as leadership.

  199. If Chile’s reading please refresh my memory if you’ve informed me of the situation RB is referencing.
    Someone may have told me and I just don’t recall with all the other stuff going on.

  200. Michael, you are welcome to have your opinions of Jon Courson. And I am welcome to have mine. I lived across the street from Jon and his family for 15 years, so I can have an opinion. Your frequent and occasional encounters with him don’t legitimize your opinions of Jon, who he is or who he is not. And your wrong about why Jon “didn’t get the job to replace Chuck Smith”. The facts are he was teaching at a pastor’s conference and his teaching on the eucharist caused half the pastors to get up and leave in the middle of his teaching. Because Jon was on CC’s payroll, he was going wherever they wanted him to go, and his next stop was in Mexico, then he returned to Oregon. Apparently your part of the half that didn’t walk out in the middle of his teaching. I only know what I know to be true and accurate. All I have said about Jon Courson is true. There is nothing fabricated, but only first hand personal encounters with Jon and his family.

    And as far as the church being obligated or not to care for the fatherless and the widows, it is only recently that I realized the churches obligation to my son. If only I realized this truth when I was raising my son in the church, I would have found another church. There’s so much I would have done differently, but one thing I know for sure, Jon Courson is a wolf. It’s ok that you don’t agree with me. We can agree to disagree. The way Calvary Chapel is organized, anyone can be a Moses Model pastor, apply for 501(c)(3) tax exempt status, file the business with the state, rent a building to hold ‘church’, and off they go – collecting money to feed their self indulging egos, and let’s not forget the most important factor, to build up their family empire.

    And I too have the spirit of the Lord.
    Blessings!

  201. Laurie, I can totally understand where you are coming from. I started getting involved in this because I walked into CCCR AFTER Brian left. I was going to Horizon with Dave Love for about a year before he made the move to Castle Rock. I saw his love for the sheep and how difficult it was for him and his family to make the move to Castle Rock after being with Horizon for 17 years. I have spent time with him and know hat his priority is to serve the Lord and bless whatever community he is in. I saw the hurt sheep that needed care when I came here, and those hurt by Abeyta’s lies.
    And I tend to answer with scripture often because if what I say becomes more important than what the Word says, then the balance is lost. My opinions are more important than God’s.. I pray that NEVER happens.
    I don’t know Jon Courson. I know I have enjoyed his teaching, much like many people enjoyed Abeyta’s. I hear Philippians 1:18, as long as the gospel is preached, then rejoice, but the source HAS to matter. I can listen to Courson because the gospel is being preached and I don’t hear hypocrisy. You obviously do. Do we trash the messenger instead of letting God allow for the increase? People were saved as a result of 9/11. I don’t know.. I know I will listen to Courson differently now as a result of this interchange, but I am already saved.I am not saying leave any of this alone, but we have to be careful of the lost who see our internal division and make sure our mission is to love the injured publicly, and rebuke hypocrisy biblically. God is on the throne, and I refuse to lose my time or joy with liars and hypocrites, but Abeyta did wrong, and people should be protected from him. I saw an earlier comment about would anything have been said if he set up shop elsewhere. I would think and hope so. Much the same way if a child molester set up a day care center in another state. People should know, then it is their own decision…

  202. Laurie,

    You flat do not know what you’re talking about.
    Jon was not on “CC’s” payroll as there was no “CC” to be on the payroll of.
    When he was at Costa Mesa, he was paid by Costa Mesa.
    The orphanage he went to is one of Applegate’s ministries…by his choice.
    Jon could have gone wherever the hell he wanted to…he was not in anyones employ.
    The fact that some walked out on his message at the pastors conference had NOTHING to do with his involvement at Costa Mesa.
    Chuck Smith ran a series of “auditions” for a possible successor…Don McClure, Heitzig, Courson.
    Courson was very, very well received and to this day there are some who hope he returns after Smith’s departure.

  203. Ricky Bobby,
    I have been there (CCCR) for a little over a year now with friends there that are serving and fellow-shipping in every area. I have NEVER heard of a rumor like that. I would think I would have by now. My answer is based on my total lack of knowledge. I do know Ed, however, and I don’t think there is any way on the face of the earth that Ed would “protect” such a person. He would have reported to authorities and quietly moved the individual out of a situation where a child could be harmed. This whole Abeyta thing is so offensive, but a child molester or one who would harm children? I would have heard about it by now I think. Let’s not try to heap more, UNSUBSTANTIATED claims against any without good cause. Deal?

  204. Here’s what people don’t understand about CCCM.
    It’s an old white peoples church in a neighborhood that is increasingly Hispanic and young families.
    The church is leaking 3-5 thousand dollars a week.
    The main thing keeping it afloat is Cheryl Brodersons women’s ministry.
    It’s only draw to a new pastor is it’s bankroll which is still enormous.
    Depending on how the assets are divided after Smith’s death, this may be a church in big trouble.

  205. And I hate to keep going with some of this, but there needs to be clarity. Jam 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, [and] to keep himself unspotted from the world. The organized “church” has no obligation to do anything. Christians in the Body of Christ have the obligation of love to care for the needs of others. You can’t resent a “church” organization for not caring for widows and orphans, but you can look at that “church” dubiously if the needs of the innocent widows and fatherless are not being tended.

  206. No one who has been here any length of time will ever remember me defending Jon Courson.
    He was one of the reasons I started this blog in the first place.
    However, we have to be careful in what we say and how we say it.
    The burden of proof is on us and we will be held accountable for any accusation.
    To conflate the Eucharist controversy with the situation at Costa Mesa will cause confusion with the reader and a complete loss of integrity with those who know the facts.
    Behind the scenes Courson is still highly respected by his peer group, which is the other mega church pastors of CC.
    Everyone is entitled to their opinion of a pastor or church…but when we cite facts and make accusations we better have our ducks in a row.

  207. To the other point, which is that anyone can set up a 501(c) (3) and have a “church”.
    That’s true.
    Welcome to America…where the majority of churches do not belong to a mainline denomination anymore.
    Your alternative is a state church or state control of existing churches.
    Good luck with that.
    This is why I think we need to spend the bulk of our time catechizing and educating the people in the pews to recognize potentially abusive situations.
    The other rarely recognized point…the bulk of those churches are not abusive and their members are content with the system as it stands.

  208. Michael,
    You give no credibility to me, who lived across the street from Jon for 15 years. Nor do you give credibility to the fatherless guy who’s mom was employed by Jon for years. If you read his story (comment #132 on CCA), then you would see a pattern of behavior regarding how Jon cared for the fatherless children in his church. Our children were regarded as second class citizens, treated like dogs by Jon and his leadership. And let’s talk about the orphanage in Mexico, also a hands on ministry for the School of Discipleship. I personally know several people who have lived there and have cared for these children, and they are cared for no better than the fatherless children who attend Applegate Christian Fellowship. If money was not the issue, these children would be eating more than just rice and beans and water (which is what the students of the School of Discipleship also eat). This is Jon’s way of keeping more of the tax exempt money he receives to invest in his family empire, which last I calculated, exceeds $10 million dollars just in property value alone. This is the danger with the Moses Model pastors, the church is a business which is owned and operated by one man.

  209. This is a beautiful message I received from a stranger. Michael, you can learn a thing or two from reading this. I believe it’s the heart of Jesus.

    This message is copied from my facebook page ‘Fatherless Children in the Church’:
    Kristine Ely: Laurie Thorson, Ma’am, according to this website, your story was shared at calvarychapelabuse.com because you feel (and possibly rightly so) that you have been abused by a calvary chapel church. And earlier, you requested that anyone who has been abused by a calvary chapel church message you. I appreciate your care for others even despite your own feelings of being wronged. I respectfully would like to challenge you to expand your thinking for a moment. Why Calvary Chapel, specifically? Personally, I don’t know if I’ve even been wronged by a “Calvary Chapel”, but I can think of many times I have been wronged by or through “church” in general. I think church-wrongings expand way beyond calvary chapel. In fact, why not ask readers to consider if they believe they have been wronged by Christians, because we know that Christians make up the church (including the Calvary Chapels). And if we really look at your unfortunate situation, isn’t it fellow Christians who are ultimately to blame for your neglect? I am so sorry that we have let you down, and that we were not aware of your situation. But now that we are, I am sincerely asking how I can personally help you and your son. If you are looking for friendship, I can be a friend. If you need someone to listen, I am pretty good at that (although not so great at advice). If you are struggling financially, I humbly feel that I have been given the gift of generosity and freely give what little I have. I believe that everything is either directly ordained or allowed by God. So to blame Calvary Chapel, church, Christians, anybody is to ultimately blame God. Wrongings have been committed towards you by Calvary Chapel. Wrongings have been committed towards me by the church. And wrongings have happened to most by Christians. We must remember that every single Christian has also committed wrongings towards somebody else, because we are all sinners. Let’s remember how much we have been forgiven so we can forgive. If Pastor Jon has wronged you in the amount of $100,000 please remember the cross.. It’s worth more than that debt. Please remember that the Lord has provided more to you in your life than the $100,000 you seek from someone else who has wronged you. And an uplifting, encouraging story that might hopefully make your evening a little better comes from 2 Samuel 16:6-12. King David had been terribly wronged.. but he rejoiced in his wronging . He said that if he was being wronged it was because the Lord allowed it to be so, and maybe, just maybe, God would repay him with good for the wrong done to him (v.12). You don’t have to seek it in court; if it is due to you, the Lord will provide it. May the Lord bless you and keep you. Your friend, Kristine

    Laurie Thorson: WOW!! Thank you so much Kristine for taking the time to write that. You brought tears to my eyes. What a good heart you have. You have totally blessed me with your kindness.

    Coleen Bubenik: Beautifully said Kristine! And Laurie, I pray your heart would heal quickly! You are loved and while on this earth, we will all be wronged at times! The Lord keeps showing us in this way, that this is not heaven! Praying for you!

    Michael Jeans: Very well written Kristine. Sometimes when I feel wronged, not necessarily by the church, but by another person, Christian or non, I look at what Jesus has done for me. He taught that we are to look at the things that are eternal and not to focus on the things of the world. We all fall short, every one of us, and we just need to stay focused on Jesus. Remember, “our struggle is not with flesh and blood…” We must endure for our rewards are in heaven. Shalom

  210. Laurie,

    I cannot address your personal experience.
    What I can do is show you were what you are presenting as factual is actually grossly in error.
    You should take responsibility for your errors if you want to be taken seriously.
    I would also say that demanding “restitution” is legally problematic.
    I’ll repeat…I fail to see how it’s the responsibility of a pastor with a family and thousands of people in the church to care for other peoples children.
    It is the job of the pastors and elders to equip the Body to do so.
    As I said I have a friend of over twenty years who raised her grandchildren there and she loves the church to this day.
    I don’t…for a host of reasons.
    The “Moses Model” is actually classic American Christianity in practice and can indeed lead to financial and spiritual abuses.
    The only people that can stop that are going to be the people who give the money…unless you want a state church.

  211. Laurie,

    The “heart of Jesus” is that we will walk in both truth and love.
    Baseless accusations don’t make the grade.
    Frankly, as someone who spends the bulk of his time with “fatherless children” when I’m not working such things only make the work that much harder.
    This is a neglected area of ministry and not just by Applegate.

  212. I complied with Matthew 18:15. My first encounter with Jon Courson was in private (only after I was encouraged by another pastor to tell Jon what Mike Whitman did to me and my son during the time I attended ACF – and what he did to his own church). Only after Jon refused to respond, I made my complaints known to Chuck Smith. Only after Chuck Smith refused to respond, I made my complaints known to the church. Jon quickly hired an attorney to intimate me and silence me, but I am confident that God wants me to obey his word. Thank God I’m not easily intimated by man. Galatians 1:20 “…For am I now seeking the approval of man, or of God? Or am I trying to please man? If I were still trying to please man, I would not be a servant of Christ…”

    Matthew 18:15-18 “… “Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. [DID THAT]. But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that ‘by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’ [DID THAT] And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church [DOING THAT]. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector. “Assuredly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”…”

    Matthew 18:6-7 “…“Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to sin, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were drowned in the depth of the sea. Woe to the world because of offenses! For offenses must come, but woe to that man by whom the offense comes!…”

    James 1:27 (NIV): “…religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: TO LOOK AFTER ORPHANS AND WIDOWS IN THEIR DISTRESS and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world…” or if you prefer (NKJV): “…pure and undefiled religion before God and the Father is this: TO VISIT ORPHANS AND WIDOWS IN THEIR TROUBLE, and to keep oneself unspotted from the world…”

    Psalm 68:5 “…A FATHER TO THE FATHERLESS, A DEFENDER OF WIDOWS, IS GOD in his holy dwelling…”

    Psalm 82:3 “…Defend the weak and the fatherless; uphold the cause of the poor and the oppressed…”

    Psalm 146:9 “…The LORD watches over the foreigner and sustains the fatherless and the widow, but he frustrates the ways of the wicked…”

    Isaiah 1:17 “…Learn to do right; seek justice. Defend the oppressed. TAKE UP THE CAUSE OF THE FATHERLESS; PLEAD THE CASE OF THE WIDOW…”

    ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
    I’m done.
    Blessings!

  213. Laurie,

    If you have documentation of your accusations about Whitman, that is a viable and important story.

    All those Scriptures you cited about the fatherless, widows, and orphans are directed toward whom?
    Pastors only or the whole church?
    If you really want to help fatherless children I can show you some effective ways to do so…

  214. Michael, can I have your e-mail address? Then I can forward the documentation I have to prove what Pastor Mike Whitman did to his church (and also what he did to me during the time we both attended Applegate Christian Fellowship).

    Because folks were leaving Mike’s church and going to another local church (in Brookings, Oregon), the pastor in the area personally contacted me because he wanted to see the information I had to prove what Mike Whitman did. As I told the other pastor, you are welcome to contact the same people I did. I will provide the names and phone numbers for you. I will also provide copies of the deactivated facebook pages by Mike Whitman and his wife to prove what I know as truth. The District Attorney and the Sheriff’s office is currently investigating Mike Whitman for ‘theft by deception’ (you can’t steal from the public and use money for anything other then it’s intended purpose).

    In a nutshell, Mike Whitman lost the church property because he purposefully withheld the ‘tithe’ from paying the mortgage and pocketed the money for his own use. But to make things worse, he went to Israel during this period of time and when he returned, he started soliciting and collecting money under the “building fund” to save the church from foreclosure. But the day he posted on his facebook page “…going to the bank to redeem our property in an hour. praise God we have been redeemed by Him…”, the fact is, he never went to the bank (confirmed by bank officer). At this point, the property already belonged to the bank because it didn’t sell at the public auction which was held on the court steps (which Mike forgot to the church). The public auctioneer/attorney who performed the public auction confirmed to me that nobody attended the public auction to purchase the church property, not even the church; therefore the church property was returned to the bank. I also spoke to the liquidator for the bank, who is located in Las Vegas, and he confirmed that the property is now bank owned and his job is to sell the bank owned property. He did state that an offer was made by someone in California, but that’s all I know now. It was enough to prove Mike Whitman lied to his church about “…going to the bank to redeem our property in an hour…” Mike has since deactivated the church’s website and deactivated his personal facebook page (which I have copies of). The only active facebook page is for the church (Brookings Christian Fellowship), which Mike recently posted that he’s still holding services on the church property that he is currently squatting on (new owners will have to legally evict him by filing a court case against him). A local reporter informed me that she attended one of the recent church services, and this just proves that Mike is continuing to hold church services on the property (which he is also living on with his family), and he is also still receiving the ‘tithe’ from this church because the members of the church don’t know what I know. My heart goes out to Mike’s family, who he has obviously deceived as well. His children (and Mike’s wife too) have made it known to me that they believe I’m lying and their father is telling the truth. But the facts don’t lie. I’m only the messenger.

    Send me your e-mail address so I can send you the documentation/proof I have. You can e-mail me at FatherlessChildrenintheChurch@gmail.com, and I will reply with the documents attached to the e-mail.

  215. This is the link to Mike’s fb posting that I copied and saved:
    Mike lied when he posted “…going to the bank to redeem our property in an hour…”

    https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=630634003630170&set=pb.603602043000033.-2207520000.1372973237.&type=3&theater

  216. If you click on “…see more…”, you’ll be able to read the ‘date chronology’ I put together.

  217. Michael, you just sent me an e-mail where you wrote “…He [Mike Whitman] just produced loan papers that show the property is current and in the name of the church….”

    I provided you with the names and phone numbers of the people I spoke to. You are refusing to contact these men yourself? You need to confirm for yourself the status of the foreclosure. Mike is not to be trusted.

    IF YOU REFUSE TO CONTACT THESE PEOPLE, AND CHOOSE TO BELIEVE MIKE WHITMAN, THAT’S YOUR CHOICE. SO I’M POSTING THE NAMES AND PHONE NUMBERS BELOW OF THE PEOPLE I SPOKE TO, JUST IN CASE SOMEONE ELSE WANTS TO CONTACT THESE CREDIBLE LEGITIMATE MEN THEMSELVES. YOU DO IT MICHAEL, OR SOME OTHER MAN WILL DO IT FOR YOU. WHY ARE YOU REFUSING TO CONTACT THESE MEN YOURSELF?

    Below are the contacts to confirm that Pastor Michael Whitman of Brookings Christian Fellowship never redeemed the property as he stated he did on his facebook posting (dated January 14, 2013).

    Eric Bryant (Process Server/Attorney)
    541.441.2285
    Performed the public auction on the court steps.
    Said no one came to the public auction, there were no bids, so the property returned to the ‘beneficiary of the trust deed’ (aka: the bank).

    Matt Beer (loan officer at Chetco/Rogue Bank – one bought out the other)
    541.469.7700, at the recording, push 4, you’ll then be prompted to put in an extension, which is 2022
    Matt Beer referred me to Tim Youngman to discuss the status of the church property.
    He confirmed that the property is bank owned and has never been redeemed by anyone.

    Tim Youngman (is the bank’s liquidator)
    702.541.5510
    Tim confirmed that the property no longer belongs to Brookings Christian Fellowship.
    The bank holds the title now. Tim’s job is to sell the property, and he said he had an offer on the table already from someone in California.

    i FORWARDED ALL THE LEGAL DOCUMENTS TO SUBSTANTIATE WHAT PASTOR MICHAEL WHITMAN DID TO THE CHURCH. IF ANYONE WANTS THEM AS WELL, JUST SEND ME AN E-MAIL AND I WILL SEND TO YOU WHAT I SENT TO MICHAEL AT PHOENIX PREACHER. THIS IS SHOCKING MICHAEL THAT YOU WOULD BELIEVE ANYTHING MICHAEL WHITMAN SAYS WITHOUT CONTACTING THE ABOVE MEN.

  218. BECAUSE ITS THE FOURTH OF FREAKING JULY!!
    THATS WHY!!!
    NOTHINGS OPEN!!!
    MY SON WANTS TO GO TO THE FIREWORKS SHOW!
    IS THAT OK WITH YOU?????

    Now you have proven yourself to be untrustworthy and utterly unstable I will have no further communication with you.
    I will find the truth and report it…on my schedule.

  219. Because I know for a fact that the documents Michael Whitman provided you have been fraudulently altered, I will make this information known to the District Attorney and the Sheriff who is currently investing Pastor Mike Whitman for ‘theft by deception’. I know for a fact that Pastor Mike Whitman is lying to you just like he lied to his church when he said “…going to the bank to redeem our property in an hour…” and then never went to the bank (confirmed by the auctioneer/attorney, bank officer, and the bank liquidator). Would three business men lie about the status of the church property, that they are legally responsible for? No way. You believe Pastor Mike Whitman over these three legitimate business men? Absolutely ludicrous.

  220. That’s the first time I’ve ever been ripped for not doing the impossible.
    I will always be fair and always seek to get both sides of the story.

  221. Laurie,

    Right now I have your word against his.
    What I know about you is that you wanted Jon Courson to pay you a hundred grand for not raising your kid and you ripped me for not contacting a bank on a bank holiday.
    I’ll do a little better research than what you offer, thank you.

  222. Laurie, you are far beyond the bend!

    It was inexcusable for you to post Brian A’s address on the other blog, thus opening HIM and HIS FAMILY up to HARM!
    Yeah, that harm may not happen, but the fact of the matter is that it makes people who wish him harm able to do so.
    My conscience on the matter is clear, I sent the man an e-mail, informing him that his address was posted there.
    I might not like what the man did, he might be the biggest scumbag in the world, but no one deserves to have harm come at them just because you, in a quest for vengeance against another man, has posted up too much personal information.
    As Christians, is this what you are called to do? Hunt down everyone you disagree with in the world.
    IT IS JUST MONEY! All of us have been swindled at one time or another and all of us have sent money to good causes. God will take care of it in the end.
    Money is no cause to put wife and kids at risk.
    Stop, this quest for vengeance before someone gets hurt from it.

  223. And don’t get pissy with me my dear. I’ve done nothing but cooperate with you, and I’ve been very very patient with your snide remarks. Who are you? Shame on you for speaking so disrespectfully to me. Is this how you treat all women?

  224. I have had my say in this. That is all.

  225. When Laurie’s story first appeared here a couple of months ago, I said that she was unhinged (and took heat). Reading these past couple of days, I think nothing has changed.

    Her public posting of people’s names and phone numbers here, shows her to be very much lacking in ethics and good manners.

  226. Laurie,

    I have already documented errors in your accusations against one person that you refuse to acknowledge.
    You then turn around and rip me for not following up on information that is impossible to follow up on today.
    You refuse to acknowledge that.
    This has nothing to do with you being a woman, it has everything to do with a lack of Christian ethics.
    You refuse to admit error and make wild accusations when challenged.
    That’s as bad as anything you accuse anyone else of.

  227. Michael, you have repeatedly disrespected me and questioned my authenticity.
    I will stand firm in what I know about these men who falsely claim to be pastors (Jon Courson, Michael Whitman, Brian Abeyta, and others) – they are business men only, but definitely not pastors. All my claims against these men are true and accurate. I’ve provided you with substantial evidence, legal documentation, title records, contacts, etc. Come to whatever conclusion you want, I don’t really care. I don’t know you, but what I do know, is that you have taken a position of being in opposition to whatever I have to say or share. This is unacceptable. I’m done.

  228. Laurie,
    You remind me very much of someone who posted here many, many, many years ago.
    She had the same sort of “spirit” you have and that wasn’t a good thing for her or anyone else in the long run.
    I think for your own good, it might be wise to give it a rest for a while to get some more balanced perspective.

  229. London, what you’re really saying is you want me to be silent, to be compliant. No way!

    I was silent for the 15 years I lived across the street from Pastor Jon Courson and attended Applegate Christian Fellowship. I was silent when Mike Whitman crawled into my bed. I was silent when he took the very little money I had at the time to care for myself and my son. This guy is the most manipulating conniving man I’ve ever met. Look at what he did to his church! And even though he has denied what he did to me, the proof is that I had to knock on my neighbors door to ask her if I could sleep at her house because Mike had crawled into my bed. She is my witness. And consider this, I wasn’t confrontational and didn’t say a word at the time, I just walked out my front door and slept somewhere else. And when I returned home in the morning, my bed was well slept in. I’ve been silent and docile all my life. In my old age, I now fear nothing, especially men, spineless cowardly men who take advantage of women and children. If you want me to tell you more stories about the men at ACF, just let me know. I have 15 years of stories of how the pastor and the leadership at ACF treated me and my son. God knows, and now so will the world.

  230. A few comments/questions for Frozen Man @ #184 and Chile @ #147.

    Ed Taylor has said he took over Dave Love’s “church” in 2001 or so when it became apparent that God wanted him to…So don’t know if Dave’s church was called Horizon when Ed took it over and Dave just kept the name…or did Ed change name to Calvary Chapel Aurora from Horizon.

    Dave then went to Littleton/Lakewood and then to Calvary Chapel Castle Rock after he and Ed decided Dave should take it over? Did the congregation vote on this?

    Just who decides these things as Chile mentions in #147?

    The assets should belong to the congregation since their money purchased them, and not just pastors as seems to be the case in the Calvary Chapels.

    Why aren’t the congregations voting on who takes over the church and what happens to the assets? There doesn’t seem to be much or any accountability even with the new CCCR from what I’ve read so far other than that you say Dave Love is a proven, good man. That’s great, but why don’t CC’s have financial statements, etc and why isn’t the congregation informed on financial matters or asked to vote on them?

    If you can answer who owns the assets of the church Frozen Man, it would be very enlightening. Also, who owns the assets of Calvary Chapel Aurora, a much bigger church? Are they all in Ed Taylor’s name?

    Happy Fourth!

  231. Laurie, knowing London for several years now, I can safely say that being silent and compliant is the last thing being asked of you.

    Let me see if I can rephrase for you. Take a chill pill and come back when you’re ready to have a real conversation without seeing everyone as the enemy.

  232. Tts 2:3 the older women likewise, that they be reverent in behavior, not slanderers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things–
    If this were just a blog for Christians, closed to the outside world and non-believers, this would still be shocking. Laurie, your intent may be good, but I don’t see that here. It SEEMS like you expect people to jump up when you wish to speak. I don’t see much that reflects: Eph 4:31 Let all bitterness, wrath, anger, clamor, and evil speaking be put away from you, with all malice. Eph 4:32 And be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God in Christ forgave you. There is not peace here. This forum and this thread, specifically, were addressed to Brian Abeyta. If Brian were to look at this, would he even care what we thought? Or would he just laugh, knowing that the flock is easily fleeced and that we are NOT of one accord. That we can be easily plucked from the tree and devoured because we can’t look out for one another.. I am saddened..

  233. Laurie,
    If I had meant “you should be silent and compliant” I would have written “you should be silent and compliant”
    I wrote what I meant, and I meant what I wrote.
    No more, no less

  234. Gary asked me

    “What do you think will happen?” They will literally ( if possible), legally, financially, economically fill in the blank, gut each other with a holy vengeance. It is just my opinion.

  235. Ephesians 5:1-21

    Walk in Love

    5 Therefore be imitators of God as dear children. 2 And walk in love, as Christ also has loved us and given Himself for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet-smelling aroma.

    3 But fornication and all uncleanness or covetousness, let it not even be named among you, as is fitting for saints; 4 neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. 5 For this you know,[a] that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. 7 Therefore do not be partakers with them.

    Walk in Light

    8 For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light 9 (for the fruit of the Spirit[b] is in all goodness, righteousness, and truth), 10 finding out what is acceptable to the Lord. 11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them. 12 For it is shameful even to speak of those things which are done by them in secret. 13 But all things that are exposed are made manifest by the light, for whatever makes manifest is light. 14 Therefore He says:

    “Awake, you who sleep,
    Arise from the dead,
    And Christ will give you light.”

    Walk in Wisdom

    15 See then that you walk circumspectly, not as fools but as wise, 16 redeeming the time, because the days are evil.

    17 Therefore do not be unwise, but understand what the will of the Lord is. 18 And do not be drunk with wine, in which is dissipation; but be filled with the Spirit, 19 speaking to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord, 20 giving thanks always for all things to God the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, 21 submitting to one another in the fear of God.

  236. Laurie,
    It looks like folks are piling on you today. You said you could write stories about your church. I think that’s a good idea. Can I give you some writer’s guidelines?
    1, Write each basic story.
    2, Go back later and fill in the details.
    3, Start with facts and add your conclusions to each story last.
    4, Let each story sit for a while. Don’t read them for a week. When you get back to them you’ll have a fresh perspective. You can edit evenhandedly. You’ll remember details you missed.
    5, Pray about each story. Ask the Lord to help your memory.
    6, Last, ask the Lord to give you His perspective to your conclusions.

    Writing these stories doesn’t mean you’ll do anything with them but it’ll give you clarity to see the words in print.

  237. I will Gary. Thank you for your prayers.

  238. I need to make a correction.
    A very reliable source said that I was wrong to characterize McClure’s tenure as an audition.
    It’s a very good source so I retract that statement.
    What I said about Coursons tenure I’ve had confirmed…again.

  239. I started this thread to help inform a community of a wolf in their midst.
    As too often happens, it turned into another opportunity for ungodly strife.
    The actual documentation Laurie has in the Whitman situation is compelling.
    However, the accused has a right to be heard and explain and defend himself and that was the process that I was starting.
    That is the way Christians should resolve these matters.
    If all it takes to establish guilt are compelling accusations we’re all in trouble.
    We have to be committed to truth and righteousness even for those we consider our enemies.
    As a result we have strife here and I’m being mocked and slandered elsewhere.
    No wonder fewer and fewer people want any part of the church.

  240. Laurie, I hope you are hearing MIchael in his number 240.
    And also take London’s advice. I’ve known them here for several years in this community and I know they both have great compassion for the “oppressed.”

    They are not your enemy. However, for you to continue to rant, like you have in this thread, you are damaging what little credibility you have.

  241. Laurie from the pragmatic side of the fence, gravity will faith and we will all float up into outer space before this type of issue is dealt with. Even if Christ himself appeared in all his glory to those involved it could not mean anything. If someone higher up the bean poll feels threatened they will take this guy out in the figurative sense. But he is to close to the franchise so nothing you do will have any effect. Just my observation. He has an independent revenue source that will feed his franchise, that is gold. I dont understand it but I am a heathen and blinded by such spiritual insight. Basically it cant work and it never has, ever. Not one time, ever. That is more sure then gravity as well.

  242. faith = fail sorry about that

  243. I don’t know about the rest of you, but Laurie’s story has too many holes in it. Are we really to believe that a man broke into her house and climbed into bed with her and all she did was get up and find another place to sleep?

  244. Re; 244….yea…..but I didn’t want to fan the flames.

  245. MLD,
    You have no idea. People who follow a young upstart like Martin Luther have nothing to say about what really goes on in the Vatican.

  246. Gary – of course we know what goes on in the Vatican – false teaching.

    And he is not a young upstart – been dead 450 yrs 😉

  247. I see this type of thing being unavoidable when Michael and Alex cover the same story. When some folks show up here from Alex’s blog things tend to go south. I think Laurie will get all the support she needs from Alex as coming over here clearly isn’t working out.

  248. Oh, believe me, they are perfectly within their rights to teach falsely.

  249. MLD,
    476 years, but who’s counting? I was counting on your superior intellect working in conjunction with the Holy Spirit inside you to give a meaningful and comprehensive answer to my comparison of your patron and his dilemma to our current topic. You think there’s any comparison? I wouldn’t approach a Catholic with this.

  250. Gary,
    You will need to take the above question out of your poetry format if you want me to understand.

    Can you just ask a question? I don’t think that Luther knew Brian Abeyta so I don’t know what dilemma.

  251. #249 Martin Luther’s Disciple
    “…a man broke into her house and climbed into bed with her and all she did was get up and find another place to sleep…”

    Who said Mike Whitman broke into my house and climbed into bed with me?
    Mike Whitman was always hanging out at my house, pilfering off of me – literally, he would see something he like and he would take it, money, food, whatever. And all along he kept telling me that it was duty as his “sister in the Lord” to take care of him during the time he was in the School of Discipleship at Jon’s Courson church Applegate Christian Fellowship. This is the story, again: It was getting late into the evening, Mike was already in my home (he didn’t break in), and when I saw that he found his way into my bed and under the covers (which I wasn’t even in the bedroom), I just quietly left the house and went to a neighbor’s and asked if I could crash on her couch because Mike was in my bed. And you ask, where was her son? My son was already asleep in his room. I knew Mike wasn’t going to harm my son, so I just left and slept somewhere else. Mike was always a ballsy kind of guy and most folks just tolerated his aggressive manipulating behavior, but I now find it very offensive that he would prey on single women with children in the church, and when I recently brought this to Jon Courson’s attention, he just ignored me. And I only brought it to his attention because a local pastor encouraged me to tell Jon what Mike did, even if it happened years ago. The pastor lived in me and Jon’s neighborhood in Jacksonville Oregon, and also went to the School of Discipleship with Mike Whitman. I have much respect for this guy, and I know he really believed that Jon would want to know. But as we all know now, Jon Courson could care less about me and my son, or how the pastors he ordains act. Jon Courson isn’t known for his pastoring abilities, much more for his business sense. And we all know what I think about Jon’s church, it’s a business, a family empire.

    All this information was documented and forwarded to Michael Newnham. If anyone wants the same documents, just send me your e-mail address, or e-mail me and I’ll reply.
    Blessings!

  252. Do you need an olde English font?

  253. Laurie, are you a widow?

  254. MLD,
    It started with your self-righteous question about Laurie which I attempted to talk to you about, but you don’t even get a fairly simple analogy related to your alter ego. How many of your walls are gilded mirrors?

  255. Gary – what question did I ask Laurie that upset you?

    One of us must be having bad 1960s flashbacks.

  256. MLD,
    #244. You must have a very short attention span. It’s not my reaction, it’s your self-righteous question. Don’t you understand analogies? I think you do. You just like to tweak people.

  257. I’m inclined to believe the bed story because it’s too crazy to have been made up! But I also believe there’s a whole lot more to that story than we are hearing.

  258. Let’s back away from this for awhile.
    The firestorm started because I had a brief interaction with Whitman yesterday and emailed Laurie and said that he may have a plausible explanation for the foreclosure situation.
    At that point she came on this blog and denounced me for not following up on her research…on the 4th of July.
    I was simply telling her what had transpired at the beginning of this process, not making a finding of fact.
    I have put her on moderation and don’t intend to be in front of a computer all day…so lets all go to the river and cool off.

  259. Gary,
    I didn’t think Laurie’s story was an analogy – but it you tell me it was, then I guess it was.

  260. MLD,
    Just more tweak and condescention. I’m not interested.

  261. Well, I guess you will need to riddle with someone else. I will admit I don’t riddle.

  262. That’s too bad. You could learn something.

  263. I could – but it would be the wrong stuff. 😉

  264. Yeah. Get back to me when you decide to get serious and address my query. The posts are all still there.

  265. Gary,
    I asked at #251 for you to ask a direct question. I was very clear that I did not (and still don’t) understand your ‘query’.
    I made a comment about Laurie and you made a covert reference to what happens in the Vatican.

    Ask a direct question and you will get a direct answer.

  266. Luther was very direct with the Pope – called him the anti Christ and a fart. So what dilemma did he have that is comparable here as you indicate?

  267. Gary,

    I just looked at your conversation with MLD.

    I must say, not to take sides, but I, too, have no idea of what you mean. A blog really doesn’t work very well if you’re using riddles or metaphors. If you’re trying to communicate clearly, it’s your responsibility, not the receiver, to be clear. Why not just say it straight?

  268. What post did you start with? Doesn’t logic take you back to the first reference?

  269. I can make the timeline clear
    at #244 I made my comment about Laurie
    at #247 Gary made his ‘question / statement’ about Luther & what goes on in the Vatican
    #252 I asked Gary to ask a clear direct question

    After that Gary stated playing the Riddler – I don’t watch enough Batman.

  270. ‘People who follow a young upstart like Martin Luther have nothing to say about what really goes on in the Vatican.’

    Please explain in plain English if you care to get your point across.

  271. Guess it doesn’t matter to him if his point doesn’t get across.

    Time to move on.

  272. LearningDiscerning #232, A few comments/questions for Frozen Man @ #184 and Chile @ #147.

    Ed Taylor has said he took over Dave Love’s “church” in 2001 or so when it became apparent that God wanted him to… Dave planted CC Aurora, then Ed transitioned to the position of head pastor, then Have Started Horizon in Littleton. So don’t know if Dave’s church was called Horizon when Ed took it over and Dave just kept the name…or did Ed change name to Calvary Chapel Aurora from Horizon. Does it matter? Look up the organization papers on the Colorado Secretary of State website for the incorporation history. Formed in 12/99

    Dave then went to Littleton/Lakewood and then to Calvary Chapel Castle Rock after he and Ed and the local pastors decided Dave should take it over since Brian Abeyta had been put out and the flock needed a sheperd? Did the congregation vote on this? The congregation does not need to vote on who leads the church. The man that God appoints with the responsibility leads and tends the flock. Once the flock dictates what the shepherd does,, or says, then the shepherd is at the mercy of the flock, as opposed to being under the direction of God.

    Just who decides these things as Chile mentions in #147?

    The assets should belong to the congregation since their money purchased them, and not just pastors as seems to be the case in the Calvary Chapels. No. A tithe is used for the body at the discretion of the pastor, under the leading of the Lord. IF the pastor listens to the Lord, and is obedient to his task, then Brian Abeyta is an anomaly.

    Why aren’t the congregations voting on who takes over the church and what happens to the assets? There doesn’t seem to be much or any accountability even with the new CCCR from what I’ve read so far other than that you say Dave Love is a proven, good man. That’s great, but why don’t CC’s have financial statements, etc and why isn’t the congregation informed on financial matters or asked to vote on them? Financial reports are available to the congregants, but again, the work of the body and how it is run is NOT at the discretion of the flock. It is the responsibility and obligation of the head pastor to make decisions based on the leading of the Holy Spirit.

    If you can answer who owns the assets of the church Frozen Man, it would be very enlightening. Also, who owns the assets of Calvary Chapel Aurora, a much bigger church? Are they all in Ed Taylor’s name? Again, you can look at the Colorado Secretary of State and see the articles of incorporation and all of the subsequent filings yourself. If you don’t trust the man God raised up to lead your church, then you are in the wrong place. If you think you should have a say in the work your church does, then you need to be in a different kind of church.

    Judas held the money box for the disciples and was stealing from it. The disciples were the flock and Jesus was the shepherd. Did the disciples vote on where they should go next? Was it Jesus fault that money was pilfered from the coffers of the church of Jesus Christ and Disciples? You don’t like a Moses model of church, then how about a Jesus model. When the people sold what they had in the Acts church, were the activities and tasks performed with those funds voted on by the congregation? Or were they used by the leadership at the direction and under the influence of the Holy Spirit?

    Yes.. There are occasional bad guys that get a hold of the money box and use it for selfish gain, but there are many, many pastors who work while the church is building, sacrifice out of love for the people of God in obedience. You want to broad brush Calvary Chapel because of some isolated incidents? Go ahead. I am going to be aware of wolves, feed the sheep, and love the Lord.

  273. #278 The Frozen Man
    “…A tithe is used for the body at the discretion of the pastor, under the leading of the Lord. IF the pastor listens to the Lord, and is obedient to his task…”
    IF? and IF he doesn’t? and who makes that determination IF he is or IF he is not listening to the Lord? The measuring stick is James1:27. IF the widows and the fatherless children in your church are not being cared for, then the big IF is not working for the pastor. And IF it isn’t, how do you get rid of the pastor IF he’s not doing his job? So many IFs.

    Now consider this, if a fatherless kid lives across the street from the pastor for 15 years, and the pastor does absolutely nothing for the kid, does that mean the pastor is not listening to the Lord? or does that mean the pastor isn’t responsible for the kid? or James1:27 really means something else, in another language, for a different time? Pastor Jon Courson is not a pastor, he’s a business man. IF he was listening to the Lord, I’m sure he would have thrown the kid a at least one Christmas gift in 15 years. The same is true about Brian Abeyta. Just look around at your church and you decide IF your pastor is truly listening to the Lord. We’re smart people, we can figure it out for ourselves, IF we’re listening to the Lord. We don’t need some man to control us and tell us how to think and act, just so he and his family empire only benefit from the tithe. We are the church. The pastor is just there to facilitate the churches tithes to care for the church, not himself and his family empire.

    Ed Taylor owns Calvary Chapel Aurora.
    He solely is the registered agent for the business, no board is listed (on the state business registry).

    The church property is valued at $6.2 million dollars.
    The church property is owned by Calvary Chapel Aurora, which is owned by Ed Taylor.
    The mailing address on the title records for the church property (located at 18900 E. Hampden Avenue, Aurora, CO) is: 15959 Butterwort Circle, Parker, CO (which is the address for Edward and Maria Taylor). Huge red flag: why isn’t the church address the mailing address for the church property. INUREMENT AGAIN? Oh no, and they’ve had three mortgages averaging $200,000 each on the home since they’ve owned it (and the value of the home is $304,000?), and guess who is paying those loans back? YOU, the church!! Another inurement case? Another IRS complaint filed? Keep ‘em coming!!!

  274. For seven or more years I have seen various complainers come on this site and trash the Calvary Chapel movement. I have continually maintained that despite its flaws it is a good and great movement.

    Yes, in some ways, many CC pastors are bullies. Hardheaded, they just have to be right. Incapable of a simple, clean, “I was wrong” or an apology without a self-serving addendum. An incorrigibility rooted in insecurity.

    But I have always, at core, been supportive.

    However Laurie makes some of the most effective arguments against the movement that I have seen.

    It might be time to listen. It might be time to move on.

  275. Yes.. You are right.. Moving on. Enjoy with the crusade to smear, malign, and cause injury to those preaching the Word of God to the people. Ignore the works done in the Name of Christ to reach the lost, the hurting, the broken. I was sympathetic to some at first, but I see so much bitterness, strife, and such a lack of love here. You have lost your message about those who actually are abusive to the system because of your ignorance of those who do all things unto the Lord in Love. I was there in the middle school with Calvary Aurora on Sundays, I was there in the little Korean church outer building on Wednesday nights while the church scraped and saved to get their own building. I watched Ed be faithful in the small and he was entrusted with more. His life is a living sacrifice and you have no idea who he is, or where his heart lies. I wont say good luck, I wont say God speed. Matthew 7:6

  276. “if a fatherless kid lives across the street from the pastor for 15 years, and the pastor does absolutely nothing for the kid,”

    Perhaps it means that the mom is too scary or dangerous to be around… or something else

    Laurie sounds like a burned out CC Applegate groupie – living in the hub, knowing all the biggies, having them hang around her and her house (even comfortable enough to just climb into her bed) – and then something went wrong.

  277. Laurie, Xenia asked you a question at #255.

  278. That being said, I do object to pastors being on title to church property and even being signers on the bank accounts.

    My church would never have any part of that.

    I wonder where that started?

  279. “IF he was listening to the Lord, I’m sure he would have thrown the kid a at least one Christmas gift in 15 years”

    Damn! The level of entitlement expressed in this statement is chilling!
    No one owes any of us anything! Ever! Period!

    What planet are you from, ma’am?

    I’m rarely with MLD on his posts but he nailed this one with his observation about your being “scary” and “dangerous to be around”. In ministry there are those who sometimes are their own best deterrent to being helped because they are obnoxious and thereby lose their credibility while remaining totally clueless and blind to their attitude and behaviors. You are one of those individuals.

    …and I’m still trying to wrap my mind around the part of the story where a guy crawls into a woman’s bed, uninvited, and isn’t led out of her house by the Sheriff in handcuffs!

    In my part of reality we respond with, “W-T-Eff!?!”

  280. You both are cold and judgemental. Get a heart.

  281. Frozen man:

    “I watched Ed be faithful in the small and he was entrusted with more. His life is a living sacrifice and you have no idea who he is, or where his heart lies.”

    I’m not from CC Aurora and only know Ed by his words and actions, but he has one thing which is a big dis-qualifier (to me at least) he is a strong proponent, from the very beginning of the Moses model. I have personally seen in writing and heard from his mouth the importance of how he speaks for God and if one wants to attend his church then they have to recognize that.

    The truth is only two people actually “spoke” “for” God directly, Moses and Jesus (see your scriptures). The problem is men like Ed actually stop people from reading their scriptures and hearing the voice of God.

    Now as far as your statement goes, I would suspect you have a bit of idol worship going and need to start focusing on the Words and life of Jesus and less on the words of Ed.

    ” Deut 18:15-18 15 “The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your countrymen, you shall listen to him. 16 “This is according to all that you asked of the LORD your God in Horeb on the day of the assembly, saying, ‘Let me not hear again the voice of the LORD my God, let me not see this great fire anymore, or I will die.’ 17 “The LORD said to me, ‘They have spoken well. 18 ‘I will raise up a prophet from among their countrymen like you, and I will put My words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him.

    John 8:28 “When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and I do nothing on My own initiative, but I speak these things as the Father taught Me.”

    No matter how many “good works” you see, Frozen Man you are being cheated by smooth talkers like Ed Taylor.

  282. Gary,
    “You both are cold and judgemental. Get a heart.”

    Come on Gary, too many movie story lines come to mind from this lady’s tales – Basic Instincts for one.:-)

    Oh, and stop judging me!

  283. Here’s my judgement- I’d rather have this lady for a neighbor than you. I’d rather have this lady in church than you. I would offer this lady to come to my church but not you. I would rather have a church full of people like this lady than with people like you. If a church was full of people like you there would be chaos on the first day.

  284. “I would offer this lady to come to my church but not you.”

    I would invite you to my church.

  285. “If a church was full of people like you there would be chaos on the first day.”

    There needs to be more chaos in the modern American church – I can’t stand a church that fills up, sings mushy songs, hears a Tony Robbins style message of “becoming a better you” and letting out to fill up 2 more times on Sunday morn.

    The description above is the modern evangelical church that you cling to.

    Be a bit chaotic and rebellious – push the envelop preach Christ until you have pissed off everyone. .

  286. Laurie

    Again to educate you:

    An registered agent for a business is only the reason who can accept service of process…eg accet service on a summons and complaint r other ega matter/notice. In fact, there are companies that act as registered agents. A registered agent is mandated by state law and in no way infers agency of the business entity excet for this purpose.

    The fact that a pastor or anyone else for that matter is the mailing address in no way legally infers ownership of the subject real estate. Ownership of real property is solely determined by grant deeds and the like at the county recorders office in which the real property is located. Your inference here is legally baseless and borders on slander.

    Most board members are listed on a document named or similar to a statement of domestic stock (or non stock. Eg non for profit) corporation, which typically is a unlicensed document but not published online by the state, but available for a fee.

    For your credibility sake, you may wish to further educate yourself on these matters before unblushing legally incorrect representations of “research.”

  287. Jeff, thank you for explaining that.

  288. I remember all of the uproar here about how Lake Elsinore Calvary Chapel was shirking their financial and assisting responsibility to John Duncan (aka Dead Man Walking) and his paraplegic wife.

    Then I recently read the REAL story about just how generous that church was and is toward John & Debbie. Made me shake my head in disbelief and realize that there are usually two sides to every story.

    Pastor Steve Wright, the board of directors and the members of Calvary Chapel Lake Elsinore went way up on the integrity chart in my eyes. How Steve Wright sat here and took it all that time says something about him.

  289. Gary,
    ::WHAP::
    ::THUD::
    …(insert visual of Phoenix Preacher bloggers simultaneously hitting their heads on their desks and face palming)

    I can’t believe I have to point out the freekin obvious to a grown man but you are acting the twit and you win the Acadamy Award for portrayal of the most clueless poster to Phoenix Preacher.

    Don’t play the judging card! Every human makes judgments and we survive and evolve because we are taught and learn danger signals so we and our families are not harmed.

    When someone swaggers with as much entitlement as the highly esteemed Laurie there is a huge problem with her world view. She thinks she is OWED by a religious worker? In what universe?!

    More disturbing, when Laurie has an uninvited visitor in HER FREEKIN BED and doesn’t immediately take measures to protect herself or her family, she not only has boundary issues, she is a danger to her family and her children and any visiting minors should be protected from her by civil intervention.

    Rock me, Amadeus, what are we missing here that mitigates these two very important and blatant issues?

  290. ( lo )====::::,
    You can speak for yourself when you disagree with me but don’t try to set all my brothers against me. Where can I pick up my award? Every human makes judgments of Laurie but nobody makes judgments of the guitar guy. I disagree with your condemnation of Laurie., that’s all cuz all the facts are not available to you or me. Amadeus can’t rock you as he is currently decomposing.

  291. I don’t know this Laurie woman and who did or did not crawl into her bed is absolutely none of my business. That’s what I have decided about that!

  292. There are just too many red flags about the Laurie story. She has either handled herself and her story very badly and has lost credibility or the story is that of a delusional woman.

  293. #283
    “…Perhaps it means that the mom is too scary or dangerous to be around… or something else…”
    REALLY? I RAISED MY SON AND I MINDED MY OWN BUSINESS. I ALSO CARED FOR ANOTHER WOMAN’S CHILD IN THE CHURCH BECAUSE SHE COULDN’T DO IT. TO THIS DAY, MY SWEET NICKI – WHO IS NOW IN COLLEGE – STILL CALLS ME AUNTIE LAURIE, BECAUSE SHE WAS SAFE WITH ME. ALL THE WHILE HER MOM WAS A DRUG ADDICT, AND ALL I CARED ABOUT WAS THE KID. WHAT KID ARE YOU MINISTERING TO IN YOUR CHURCH?

    #285
    “…“IF he was listening to the Lord, I’m sure he would have thrown the kid a at least one Christmas gift in 15 years”
    Damn! The level of entitlement expressed in this statement is chilling!
    No one owes any of us anything! Ever! Period!
    What planet are you from, ma’am?…”
    I BUMPED INTO PASTOR LOREN LAST NIGHT AT THE ART WALK. HE REMINDED ME “…DON’T FORGET THAT YOU’RE THE CHURCH LAURIE…” I DON’T KNOW WHAT PLANET YOUR FROM #285 (ARROGANT BULLY THAT HAS NO REGARD FOR WOMEN AND CHILDREN), BUT “WE” ARE THE CHURCH (IF INDEED YOU ARE SAVED). START BEING THE CHURCH AND STOP TALKING LIKE YOU KNOW SO MUCH. YOUR TALK IS CHEAP. GO HELP SOMEONE AND TELL US ALL ABOUT IT. WE WANT TO HEAR WHAT PART OF THE CHURCH YOUR MINISTERING TO. AND EVERYTHING YOU SAID DOES NOT LINE UP WITH THE WORD OF GOD. YOU NEED TO DO A STUDY ON WHAT GOD THINKS OF THE FATHERLESS, AND THEN LINE UP YOUR THINKING WITH THE WORD.

    #287
    “…No matter how many “good works” you see, Frozen Man you are being cheated by smooth talkers like Ed Taylor…”
    FROZEN MAN IS AN INSIDE MAN. THEY’RE ALL OVER THE CHURCH, PROTECTING THE PASTOR AT ANY COST BECAUSE IT’S A WAY OF BEING ACCEPTED INTO THE “MAN FOLD”. I KNOW A LOT OF MEN LIKE YOU FROZEN MAN, DRUNK ON THE KOOL-AID.

    #289
    “…Gary says:
    July 6, 2013 at 8:16 am
    “…Here’s my judgement- I’d rather have this lady for a neighbor than you. I’d rather have this lady in church than you. I would offer this lady to come to my church but not you. I would rather have a church full of people like this lady than with people like you. If a church was full of people like you there would be chaos on the first day…”
    THANK YOU GARY. YOU ARE KIND. SOME “TALK” ABOUT CHURCH, SOME “ARE” THE CHURCH. I WANT TO BE THE PART OF THE CHURCH THAT IS MOVING AND BREATHING AND LOVING AND CARING FOR OTHERS (MY HEART WILL ALWAYS BE FOR THE FATHERLESS, OR CHILDREN WHO JUST NEED TO BE LOVED). LIKE LITTLE MADDISON WHO CAME TO ONE OF MY ART FAIRS AND I SAW HER HIDING IN A CORNER BECAUSE THERE WAS A BIG GUY IN A COSTUME THAT SCARED HER. I WENT OVER TO HER AND JUST HUGGED HER AND COMFORTED HER, GAVE HER A HAT, BLESSED HER AND HER MOTHER; AND YOU KNOW, I SEE THIS LITTLE GIRL IN TOWN AND SHE RUNS UP TO ME WITH SO MUCH LOVE. I JUST SAW LITTLE MADDY LAST NIGHT AGAIN, AND SHE’S GROWING UP TO SUCH A FINE LITTLE LADY. THEY WANT ME TO GO TO THEIR CHURCH NOW. 🙂

    #292 Jeff
    EVERYTHING YOU WROTE IS INCORRECT. YOU’RE DECEIVING THE READERS.
    IF YOU HAVE ANY DOCUMENTATION TO PROVE THAT ANY BOARDS EXIST, PLEASE POST A LINK SO WE CAN READ IT. AND IF THE MEMBERS CHANGE, THEN WE NEED REVISED DOCS TOO. DON’T JUST TALK THE SMACK, BACK IT UP DEAR BROTHER.

  294. We have pretty much ruined the purpose of this thread.
    Gary, let me ask you a question.
    Courson had a growing family of his own and a church that numbered in the thousands.
    There were literally dozens of single moms and kids in single parent families in that church.
    I know…the church is in my back yard.
    With that in view, how was one child his personal responsibility?
    I simply do not understand that.
    If the issue is that in that church there was not viable ministry to single parents and their children I can embrace and agree with the need to change that.
    What I simply can’t understand is attacking the pastor of a mega church with a family of his own for not getting personally involved with one child.
    To be fair he would have had to do so with dozens and neglect his own family and every other duty of the ministry.
    That’s where I disagree with Laurie and it’s a point that is never answered.

  295. Laurie,

    To write in caps is the equivalent of shouting online.
    It’s unnecessary and it’s actually detrimental to being heard.
    Jeff is probably the most qualified person online on any blog to address the things he’s speaking to…he is someone who could be a great asset and friend if spoken to graciously.

  296. So Laurie,
    “LINE UP YOUR THINKING WITH THE WORD.”

    How does your tolerating the bed invading guy work with your “thinking with The Word”?

    Why didn’t you immediately call the police and have his ass dragged out of your house in handcuffs?

  297. I agree with Michael that we have probably gone as far as we can – but I need to ask Laurie, why did you stay at a church that was not meeting the needs of your children. Why did you not say “this church must have a different mission than what I need,” and go to another.

    My church is just a mile or so from Rick Warren’s Saddleback Church (on the same street). I am sure people come visit us and realize that we are a mom & pop church and that we cannot meet the needs they are looking for – so they end up going to the mall of churches and have a bigger selection.

    You make it sound like you spent at least 15 yrs trying to buck their system. Why?

  298. Holy Crap!

  299. #300 🙂

  300. Laurie,

    I would ask you to address my questions for clarity on your purpose.
    I understand your frustration if it concerns the neglect of ministry to single parent families and kids.
    I’ve written a great deal about this subject in previous years…let me give you an example.
    This was in my book as well…and I’d be glad to send you a copy if you wanted one.

    The Missing Part:

    The back of my SUV is a rolling skateboard shop on wheels.

    We have the ice chest full of ice, water, and soda.

    We have the big first aid kit with ice packs, bandages, Neosporin, gauze, and tape.

    We have spares…spare helmets, spare pads, spare nuts, spare bolts, spare wheels, and spare tools to put all the spare parts on the boards as need be.

    We have almost everything all the kids need to enjoy a hot summer day at the skate park without incident…with spares to boot.

    Almost everything.

    We are consistently missing the most vital thing the kids need to fully enjoy the experience.

    I’ve looked at all the parks and can’t find any.

    I’ve gone to the skate shops and can’t find any.

    I can’t order any, I can’t buy any, I just can’t find any… though I have proof they exist.

    We are desperately short of fathers.

    I don’t think the kids misplaced them or lost them intentionally, but the fact is that many of them usually can’t find theirs.

    Some of them have given up looking for them.

    We have some moms that are bravely trying to replace them, but it’s not the same and they are showing signs of pressure cracks.

    I can replace the nuts and bolts and bearings and wheels so that equipment works…I can put Band-Aids on wounds and ice packs on sprains…but I can’t replace that one missing part.

    I can fix the board, but the rider stays broken.

    I don’t have any spare dads.

    If you find one, please send him down to the skate park…or the school…or maybe even home.

    There are some broken things only he can fix.

    Make your own application…

  301. Gary,
    “( lo )====::::,
    You can speak for yourself when you disagree with me but don’t try to set all my brothers against me. Where can I pick up my award? Every human makes judgments of Laurie but nobody makes judgments of the guitar guy. I disagree with your condemnation of Laurie., that’s all cuz all the facts are not available to you or me. Amadeus can’t rock you as he is currently decomposing.”

    First, get the number of tuners correct, it’s a six string, not a ginormous 8 string mandolin.

    Next, “don’t try to set all my brothers against me.” Honestly I don’t need to when someone obfuscates instead of directly addressing the point raised.

    Regarding “Every human makes judgments of Laurie but nobody makes judgments of the guitar guy. ” silly Gary, if you knew my history here you’d know that everybody makes judgments of the guitar guy because I’m a universalist, sick and tired of christian hyperspirituality and its abandonment of simple common sense

    That you actually admit that, “I disagree with your condemnation of Laurie., that’s all cuz all the facts are not available to you or me.” This proves how clueless you are. How can any additional info mitigate the brazen entitlement and the lack of concern about the man who cavalierly invited himself into her bed?

    Amadeus is alive and well through his music which is why Falco was awesome.

    You can pickup your award at valet parking, be sure to tip the waiters

  302. Michael, thank you. I didn’t see it as screaming, I saw it as differentiating my response. I have to ask you why you tolerate cussing and abusive behavior on this blog. My hope is that I’m contributing something to shed light on the plight of the need for the church to better care for the fatherless and the widows to (James 1:27). I know I’m falling on a lot of deaf ears, and i’ll eventually tire of singing to an empty audience, but my hope is that those who do have ears to hear will actually start caring for those in their church who can’t care for themselves. I want to have God’s heart, as I’m sure you do to. Blessings!

    ( |o )====::: (stop hiding your true identify)
    i can’t respond to you anymore. You’re not listening. You are welcome to read my previous postings if you want clarification on anything regarding Mike Whitman. But I’m not going to banter with you about this anymore. You don’t have ears to hear.

  303. I apologize if I’ve ruined the thread.

    The ‘one child’ across the street was not any more his responsibility than any of his flock or neighbors. No more. No less. We don’t have all the facts and until we do I’ll side with the lady imperfect as you may believe her to be. The way I arrive at a conclusion when I don’t know all the facts is I put myself in the shoes of the pastor and the neighbor lady. What I come up with in this case is a pastor who was either blind to his neighbor or uncaring.

    When putting myself in the shoes of the pastor I have to ask myself what is my attitude toward my neighbor. If my church duties are so big or stressful that I can’t see the need, then my church is way too big and I’ve missed God’s calling. If my neighbor is pushy or obnoxious then I have to check my heart. Why does this woman repulse me so much? She must be outside my scope of ministry. In that case I’d better have someone I know help her. If I don’t have such a person then I’ve completely missed what church is about and it’s time to go back to square one. I’ve tried to find an out for this pastor and so far I haven’t found it.

    When putting myself in the shoes of the lady it’s easy to see where I should go for help with my son. It’s a no brainer. Why, there’s a pastor right there across the street. I’ll ask him for help. Regarding the intruder in her home I can see how a CC leader could weedle his way in there.

    I haven’t directly attacked this pastor but I am defending the lady. I just can’t imagine living across the street from a person in her predicament without doing something; either helping or finding help. If I fault this pastor it’s for not getting help for her no matter what he thinks of her personally.

    Also, I can’t imagine any pastor of a mega church not neglecting his family.

  304. Laurie,

    This is a big and diverse community.
    People will challenge things…most here have had the common experience of being betrayed, so all things are open to question.
    Asking tough questions isn’t abusive…it’s people looking for truth and straight answers.
    Once they get them, this is one of the most supportive groups of people you will ever meet.

  305. Gary,

    I appreciate your heart .
    The mega church model is a difficult one to receive personal pastoral attention from.
    To me, that is it’s weakness.

  306. #303 Martin Luther’s Disciple:
    I need to ask Laurie, why did you stay at a church that was not meeting the needs of your children. Why did you not say “this church must have a different mission than what I need,” and go to another.

    You make it sound like you spent at least 15 yrs trying to buck their system. Why?

    My response:
    Fair question. I was young and alone. I did the best to raise my son alone, but how was I suppose to know that just down the street was a better church? I made choices at the time with the knowledge and wisdom I had. Why didn’t I send my son to the public elementary school across the street?…instead of using what little money I had to pay for him to go to a private Christian school? I had my reasons then, and they were valid and legitimate, even though others may have done things differently. And now I’m older, my son is grown, and I’ve gained knowledge and wisdom that helps me to grow in my understanding of how the church is to function and move and breath. My dear friend who lived around the corner went to a Catholic church, should I have gone to her church? She kept telling me that Applegate Christian Fellowship was a cult, but I didn’t believe her at the time. I was too busy drinking the kool-aid. But now in retrospect, I can see that the church is a business for Jon Courson, he’s building his family empire, not a life breathing church that truly loves and cares for one another. Just is a self seeker, or as he defines himself now, a “sensitive seeker” pastor. He cares for no one but himself and his family empire, I can see that now. I couldn’t see it before. Am I welcome to come to my own conclusions now? And if I don’t see it your way, am I now the bad guy? Be well Martin Luther’s Disciple (and about these screen names, they give no credibility to anyone’s true identify – quite the contrary).

  307. I realize I’m the simp newbie here and I’m somewhat out of place. I struggle whether I should add my 2 cents when I’m the odd one out. I realize I say dumb things. I half jokingly say I have a ministry of apologetics and I’m here to make y’all look good. But I get upset when I see piling on from the holier-than-thous. I suppose it takes on to know one.

  308. I did appreciate the way Jon Courson taught the word, like reading a book word for word. I went through the whole bible with him and the church about four times, maybe five. I will forever be grateful for that. But that’s why I’m now able to conclude that anyone can be a pastor as long as he’s able to read the bible. Jon Courson is a bible reader (with a little entertainment and a big laugh here and there to keep the attention on him), but he’s definitely not a pastor. He pastors no one. He’s a business man.

    Be well everyone, have a great day! I’ll check back tonight to see if there’s any love here I can soak up. My cup is half empty and it could sure use a fill up. Blessings!

  309. It’s the nature of big groups whether church, corporate, or higher ‘education’ to be too busy to notice the individual. Big churches don’t see you unless you pop your head up. Then they use you till you’re used up and they spit you out. I’ve been there. Small groups have their problems too. It’s up to me to pray and search until I find where God wants me.

  310. The mega church model is a difficult one to receive personal pastoral attention from.
    To me, that is it’s weakness.

    Michael,

    I also think the MCM can make church into a spectator sport where you just “sit and receive.”
    Period. There’s more to church than that. I like small churches like the one my family belongs to. Most everybody gets involved in something and as is human nature, some are involved more than others.

  311. Lutheran,

    The sad reality is that many people don’t want to be involved…they want a religious performance and then left alone.

  312. I like a church small enough that when you go up to receive Communion, the priest calls you by your name. “Servant of God Xenia receives the Body and Blood……”

  313. It’s pretty much understood that treating each other in a civil way will allow you to say just about anything you want and stay as long as you want here. When we start to attack one another & accuse one another without knowing the whole story, then we are no different than the world. It’s ok to disagree as long as we don’t mame each other. If we understand that we are in someone elses house and there’s many people watching how we behave that we can’t see, it should change how we treat each other.

    There’s my .02 cents worth and now I need to continue to prepare to teach on the “coming of the kingdom” from Luke the beloved Physician.

  314. covered, true, but that’s not exampled and not meted out fairly on here. Many have been allowed to rip into me big time, MLD had carte blanche for a long time, so did Derek and Josh and others.

    It sounds nice, but it’s not equal scales, often. Not in my experience. I can post a zillion examples where it was “ok” to rip into me big time.

  315. Gary, There’s a man named Sameer (not sure on the spelling) who really bugged me with his aggressive style of posting (in my opinion). When we had one of our get togethers where folks here met for food and fellowship he turned out to be one of the nicest men I ever met. To see how he was with Kevin Thompson who was partially paralyzed at the time was something to behold.

    You are a welcome addition and I imagine if you met some of the people here face to face it would be a totally different experience. The internet is great but face to face is so much better. Hang around.

  316. covered, I was going to post something similar yesterday but you expressed it perfectly.

  317. Sometimes it takes everything a person has just to drag their butt to a church, endure the small talk, and “happy” faces just to plant themselves in a seat long enough to “sit and receive”
    If you’ve never been in that place, then I suggest you not judge anyone else for doing it.

  318. …I’ll balance that by stating that I had carte blanche as well and would rip back into folks and was allowed to defend myself (often) and sometimes I was the instigator as well, so I’m not claiming victim status, just pointing out that ripping into folks (on all sides) has kind of been the way of things, we’re human beings.

  319. I do think things have improved in that regard on here lately. Less ripping, more discussing, as much as is possible. Again, we’re humans, flawed, etc capable of good and bad, none of us are perfect, we’re all a-holes at times (some of us bigger ones than others) and I don’t expect perfection out of myself or any of you…unless you’re a pastor promoting yourself as “specially anointed of God!” then you need to measure up to your sales pitch and I’ll point it out when you don’t.

  320. RB,

    There will be conflict anytime you get two people in the same place.
    I’ve tried to be fair.
    I pray that I’ve been a lot more fair to you than the way I am being represented on your blog.

  321. London,

    I have been in that place. I’m not judging anyone. I’m stating my opinion.

    I’m just saying if folks are able, it’s good to get involved. It can be a real blessing.

    There’s a reason why the NT calls us, many times, “the body of Christ.” I believe it’s more than a metaphor.

  322. I’ve been in the trucking industry for over a few years years now. I participate on trucker forums. It’s amazing just how polarized truck drivers are, especially regarding the imposition of rules and regulations. I’ve often thought how similar the verbal jabs and knock down drag out discussions happen there and here.

  323. RB, I hear you and I know why you say what you posted. What you don’t realize is that there are times when you blow us away with your kindness and wisdom. I can’t think of one person who doesn’t support your battle against BG regardless of what may have been said here. While in OK last month I met 2 pastor’s from CC’s in that area and when we had a general discussion on the future of CC etc, I asked where they get their information being so far from So Cal and they both said, the same place everyone does, from CCA and PP! You are being watched and have a larger platform than you realize. Because I speak to you on the phone, have prayed with you and see you on fb, I see the loving husband and father that others misinterpret and don’t understand. You will always be loved but maybe at a distance by some 🙂

  324. Laurie,
    You posted,
    “( |o )====::: (stop hiding your true identify)
    i can’t respond to you anymore. You’re not listening. You are welcome to read my previous postings if you want clarification on anything regarding Mike Whitman. But I’m not going to banter with you about this anymore. You don’t have ears to hear.”

    I’ve been a participant at PhxP for years and I reserve the right to use my guitar symbol and thank you for respecting it. It really doesn’t matter my identity, what’s important is that you continue to dodge the direct questions I raised while vilifying people serving in ministry. I don’t think anyone is untouchable or off limits, so that’s why I’m still pressing you to answer my queries.

    As for not having “ears to hear”, it is you who is deaf to reasonable questions.

    So, how does your “Word” centered approach to life work when you think you and your child are so entitled?

    And how can you justify passively allowing a man to invade your bed and you simply go elsewhere when he does so? Why didn’t you have the police escort him out of your house?

  325. Covered

    Everything you wrote about RB as a person, husband, father is completely to be disregarded when one considers the seminal measure of a man…which college football team he supports. Any follower of the blue field spud heads is no friend at all. Now if he supported the SDSU Aztecs, he’s a swell fellow and an outstanding Christian man. I’ m sure more CCSP’s would look to his blog were he to get behind the right team.

  326. Sheck, God is clearly a Boise State fan. Did you see that Oklahoma game in 2007? If that’s not a supernatural miracle, I don’t know what is 😆

    covered, I appreciate the kind words, I hope they are true (meaning I hope I am those good things you said and not a complete a-hole).

  327. Ricky, God is clearly an San Diego State fan. Did you see that Boise State game in 2012? If that’s not a supernatural miracle, I don’t know what is.

  328. #331 ( |o )====:::
    On several occasions I’ve made my e-mail address available for anyone who wants the documents I have regarding Mike Whitman. Now that Michael Newnham has a copy of them, maybe he’ll send them to you but I’m done with this bantering. Only AFTER you have taken the initiative to know the facts by reading the documents, then, and only then, if you still have questions or need clarification, then I will let you publicly interrogate me. I promise!

  329. Laurie,

    When you directly respond to my repeated questions HERE, on this thread, then I and others will consider changing our thinking about your tactics and attitude.

    Until then I hope you can find peace.

    p.s., (in the future please quickly remove any unwanted men from your bed, and phoning the police is a very good idea)

  330. ( |o )====::: IS MIKE WHITMAN!!! I KNEW IT!!!

  331. Laurie,

    There cannot possibly be two more different people than Mike and the Guitar man.
    That’s one of the more ridiculous accusations ever made here.

  332. Laurie,

    I’ve been as gracious as I can be.
    You make accusations, then when corrected you do not retract them, you just move on to the next thing.
    You have presented your story, yet when reasonable questions are asked you refuse to answer and attack instead.
    This is not conducive to either understanding or ethical Christian investigation.
    If you want people to hear you responsibly, you have to speak responsibly and answer reasonable questions.
    If all you want to do is blowtorch your way through your perceived enemies, then this isn’t the place where that is going to happen.

  333. You have a responsibility Michael to tell the truth. You are purposefully navigating this blog to allow evil to prevail.

  334. Laurie, your #332 was laughable.
    I almost snorted liquid out of my nose when I saw it.
    and your #335 is just flat out wrong and more justification of your bad actions in your own mind.

  335. Actually I thought #332 was satire, or sarcasm, or some word that begins with “s.”

  336. Laurie,

    That’s a serious accusation…and a shameful one.
    You have made accusations all though this thread and when corrected you have refused to retract those accusations.
    You have made a case against Michael Whitman that is compelling, but when I attempted to hear the other side of the story I was attacked for not believing you utterly and completely.
    In this country and most of all in the church, the accused has a right to present his case and be heard.
    You attacked me for not following up with bankers on a bank holiday then refused to apologize for doing so.
    I corrected some of your accusations about Courson and again you refused to hear.
    Jeff gave you legal counsel based on years of actually doing the work you are researching and again, you refused to hear.
    It’s all or nothing with you…and that isn’t biblical or acceptable.

  337. OK, who is Mike Whitman?

  338. As for the Whitman case itself, there is no doubt that the church property went into foreclosure.
    Why it went into foreclosure and how that affects the church going forward are totally separate issues.
    Lots of churches are having financial issues right now…and a lot are going into foreclosure.
    Whitman did produce a document that the loan has been reassigned and a payment schedule for it.
    I have just started to ask questions and don’t expect to have a grasp on the matter for a while.
    What I do have a grasp on is that any conclusion other than that Whitman is a devil from hell will not be received well…

  339. Pastor of Brookings Christian Fellowship…a plant from Applegate.

  340. Sheck said, “Ricky, God is clearly an San Diego State fan. Did you see that Boise State game in 2012? If that’s not a supernatural miracle, I don’t know what is.”

    Touche. God must’ve changed his mind again and “repented” or he punished the Boise State nation for turning from him 😆

    …it was a miracle that SDSU beat us on the Blue 🙂

  341. Late to the party …

    Re: Michael @200

    RB is right that there is an allegation but the details got confused.

    Allegation: Two people witnessed a Children’s worker in Sunday School had acted inappropriately somehow with a child. These two people were in leadership in Ed Taylor’s church. They told Taylor of what they saw. The result was Ed told them they had to step down from ministry presumably to protect the offending leader. They were instructed to never speak of this again. I don’t know if they were outright told to leave Taylor’s church or if it was the more creative way where one feels a hand on their back pushing them out of the church all the while being asked, “Why ya leaving so soon?”

    The two leaders who reported the offense to Taylor then took refuge in Abeyta’s church.

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