Jul 312013
 

On July 19, Chuck Smith sent an email blast to all Calvary Chapel senior pastors endorsing the new Calvary Chapel Association.

On July 20th, George Bryson held a conference at CC Cypress rallying senior pastors to “stay the course”… to hold to traditional Calvary distinctives that aren’t endorsed (at least in print) by the new CCA.

Chuck Smith sent them an endorsement as well.

On Sunday the 21st, everyone was confused.

 

Again.

Jackie Alnor just reported on her Facebook that John Higgins, a staunch traditionalist, has left the movement.

“We feel that the original calling and vision for Calvary Chapel in 1966 was from the LORD. Therefore, we at Tri City have withdrawn from the present day hype, by notifying the CCA and Chuck Smith personally that we are no longer associated with the CCA or Costa Mesa. I have spoken of this at conferences with interesting results. We speak of being a independent fellowship of believers.This took place right after the June pastors conf in Marietta when Greg and Bob Coy presented their plan for integrating with the apostasies of today. 

Our church reps walked out and never returned. As a result, we have lost fellowship with many of the “Calvary’s” in our area as they have embraced these false teachers in hope of growth and (in my opinion) the hope of monetary gain. 

We at Tri City go back to 1966 when we were called into the battle field. And not wanting to change our name, (we say they should), are looking to incorporate the idea of the date 1966 in our logo.

However, that is yet to be completed. Our fellowship know where we stand and we are strong in the strength of our Lord.

I hope this gives you and your associates a clear understanding of our position.

 We are not fighting against CCCM and its ways but we are fighting for the Truth of God’s Word.

 In Jesus,

John 

As pastors all over the country begin to come to grips with the fact that sooner rather than later there will be a leadership void at the Calvary mothership, questions about the movements future are finally being asked out loud.

The loudest voice in support of keeping things as they have always been has been George Bryson.

Bryson, well know for his anti- Calvinist polemics, has kept up a steady stream of “educational” emails in support of his position.

My sources tend to discount or even mock him…and in my opinion, that is a mistake.

What Bryson is saying is that those inside the movement need to preserve what made CC unique…the independence of the pastors, the anti-Reformed theology, and the pretrib Rapture doctrine.

He also intimates that Chuck Smith agrees with him…and all the evidence I’ve seen indicates that he’s telling the truth.

The CCA statement of faith is basically a standard Baptistic SoF…unique in no way from any other Baptistic document.

The CCA also establishes regional leadership, bishoprics if you will.

Bryson isn’t interested in having a bishop…nor is Chuck Smith interested in having them either.

In an email to Bryson answering a question on the independence of each pastor, Smith said this;

“No Calvary is under or over another Calvary, we are all brothers in Christ, we all have the freedom to follow our understanding of how the Lord is leading us. If you feel the Lord is leading you in another direction, you are free to go and follow that leading. If you agree to the Calvary Chapel distinctives and desire to fellowship with us, you are welcome. What we do not want is for fellows to call themselves Calvary Chapel, and go a dozen different directions, that will only end in total confusion. The CCA board is intended only as an advisory board, not a ruling board. The men serve on this board only to help when called upon or needed. In Christ, Chuck”

In other words, if you want to tell the CCA to pack sand…be fruitful and prosper.

Some pastors have already…and more will if there is an attempt to oversee them or their churches in any fashion.

As one said to me recently, “I invite them to leave me completely alone”.

While my conflicts with Bryson are now legendary, I hear what he is trying to communicate.

Every denomination has doctrinal identities that make them unique and CC is on the verge of losing theirs.

If I was a CC pastor, that would matter to me.

In the long run, those that it does matter to will have to make their own way…and the splits will continue.

  188 Responses to “Calvary Chapel: The Splits Begin…”

  1. ‘This took place right after the June pastors conf in Marietta when Greg and Bob Coy presented their plan for integrating with the apostasies of today. ‘

    Michael,

    Can you translate this into English?

    Are they referring to folks like Rick Warren?

  2. Meh, who cares. CC is irrelevant. There are much bigger issues in life to wrestle with.

  3. A bunch of Selective Fundamentalists splitting over hairs of their particular set of emphases and contradictions. Yawn. How ironic. So much sound and fury signifying nothing.

  4. Lutheran,

    Yes…and Driscoll.

  5. RB,
    If you love church history as I do…this is fascinating.

  6. Decades ago, I was a Southern Baptist when the local association was up in arms about “alien immersion” and “open communion”. To this day, I still feel that much of the doctrinal grandstanding was a mask for envy. The small-congregation pastors were upset with the church pastors getting all the crowds and attention, those they saw as compromised. The small fish lost, but there sure was a lot of strong words going around that confused me (a new Christian at the time). I hope the Calvary Chapel movement rises above that, but I fear it will not. (I also attended CC churches for over 15 yrs)

  7. “If you love church history as I do…this is fascinating.”

    Yes, fascinating like watching Jersey Shore or Amish Mafia.

  8. But, agreed, it is very entertaining :-) better than TV in some respects :lol:

  9. We should make odds and take bets.

    Higgins was the first to go, who do you think is most likely to bail next, due to the Great Apostasy of not damning Rick Warren to hell?

  10. I recall Greg, Brian and Bob speaking on a video that CC released for public consumption and it appeared there were a lot of excited people seeing the possibility for setting aside non essentials and coming together as opposed to drawing lines in the sand. That didn’t last long….

    Some must have choked on their meal when they read that Greg was swift in his response to fill in for Rick Warren after his son’s tragic death. Who will God raise up to be a voice of reason in all of this? Or has that boat sailed???

  11. “We are not fighting against CCCM and its ways but we are fighting for the Truth of God’s Word.

    In Jesus,

    John ”

    Translation:

    We are fighting for our interpretation and our opinion of what the bible says, despite the fact there are a million other opinions regarding the same words on the same pages…and we damn the rest of you to hell! We are the Narrow Way and only we have the proper insight into what the bible really says. We are special and you aren’t. We are the TRUE Remnant and the true prophets of God, not you or anyone else! Yet, we don’t perform real miracles and there is nothing that validates our assertion of our own authority other than our own dictums and proclamations.

  12. I am just going to continue being a Calvary Chapel, (because I am engrained it it’s values and ministry philosophy) living out Acts 2, and see where the pieces fall when they fall. I will prayerfully decide what to do when forced to do so. At this time, I pray for Pastor Chuck and I am so thankful for his friendship, and example to me. I want to just pray for him and encourage him in this season of his ministry. He has earned that and more.

    All of these “splits” & “controversies” become a target of exploitation from the enemy. I pastor in Foresthill, CA where we have seen God move in a beautiful, powerful way. It is hard enough to pastor a church today much less get sucked into hypothetical “what if’s” and being forced to pick a side. These things do not affect my ministry in my town. I am responsible for this town and that’s about it. Guys who posture themselves turn my stomach. People who live to prognosticate about CC should know their place. They are hurting their own tribe when they relentlessly pick apart a certain denomination. They wound God’s heart.

    How about this- I pick Jesus and His command to make disciples of all men. I choose to love the whole Body of Christ who love and serve Him and choose to suffer for His name’s sake. I choose to finish well. I choose to admit that I have flaws and warts and need Christ daily. I choose to admit that I need my brothers and sisters in the Lord. I choose to honor Pastor Chuck and pray for him along with all pastors in the ministry. I choose to fear God alone and no man. I choose to fear the Lord knowing one day I will receive a “stricter” judgment for leading His flock. I choose to sit outside of the fray. I choose to lead a simple life of faith and love and shed the shackles of man’s opinion. I choose to trust Christ to parse out the wolves from the sheep and the wolves in sheep’s clothing. He knows and will avenge.

    These are my thoughts for today regarding this post. Lord, please have mercy on all of Your servants and Your Bride, the Church of Jesus Christ. Amen.

  13. Erunnner,

    That faction still exists and is a large faction.

  14. “Lord, please have mercy on all of Your servants and Your Bride, the Church of Jesus Christ. Amen.”
    Amen indeed!

  15. Michael @ 4 – “Yes…and Driscoll.”

    Religion as a whole is currently undergoing a merger of sorts. Christianity (or at least the business end of it) is not immune from this new age poison of “compromise for the sake of unity” that has seeped through the cracks of our church buildings and is dissolving the very foundation.

    Our job isn’t to unify with each other. Our job is to follow Christ, and whomever else does so, will be our brethren ‘because of Christ’, not because ‘we decided to form a pact’. There is no reason for Smith, Driscoll & Warren to be bosom buddies as long as God is their God. Agreeing to disagree is fine.

    Mr. Higgins has decided to align solely with Christ and forego the “movement” and whatever that entails. To him, I say ‘bravo’.

  16. The biggest hubub will come about when the revenue stream is interrupted and asset ownership is challenged and it will not be settled with prayer, meetings, vote, fasting etc. It will be settled in court. All that brotherly love nonsense will fly right out the nearest window like a frighted dove being attracted by a hungry cat. I mean if they are getting like this over unimportant issues like doctrine and the bible just imagine when they get down to real issues like cash, paychecks, retirement, parsonage reimbursement and other such truly spiritual matters. But this is just my observation over the years of reading about this church group. I hope I am wrong and I hope it flourishes and many are lead to faith. But gravity will fail before that happens. Translation it will take an act of God, good thing He is in that business.

  17. http://www.freshfireusa.com/

    I wish these web links came equipped with a large air sick bag of some type.

  18. Michael or other mods: Please remove my 4:45 post. I had a “slip” in my commitment to not post on such topics and only post when I have something positive to contribute. I really would appreciate it. Thanks.

  19. Like you Michael, I find this fascinating. Sometimes I see Chuck as “cunning” and sharp as they come but for the life of me allowing Bryson to be somewhat of a mouth piece for him isn’t very smart. I can’t think of anyone who annoys so many like Bryson does. He is not a good choice to be the one who throws the gauntlet down. Maybe Chuck is losing his edge.

  20. covered,

    I could be wrong…but I think when historians write about this part of the Jesus People history that Bryson will be seen in a different light than he is now.
    I disagree with almost everything he says, but he’s the only guy standing up and asking the relevant questions that need to be asked.
    To be blunt, my personal opinion is that he’s being played by Chuck who is being as passive aggressive toward these changes as possible.
    I’ve said it before and I believe it more today than ever…history will not be nearly as kind to Smith as his “fellows” are today.

  21. Jeff,

    A lot of your peers share your convictions.
    From my perspective, we are witnessing history in a way that we usually are not able to.
    As I’ve chronicled more of that history than anyone, it is indeed fascinating to me.

  22. Michael, I understand what you are saying but why George? It just seems like from what I hear he has no credibility with many if not most cc pastors. It makes more sense to use a guy like Greg L or Mike M or someone with a bit more of a following amongst tribal leaders.

  23. One thing for sure, it’s going to get interesting.

  24. covered,

    Why George?
    Just my opinion…because George is the only one with the cajones to speak.
    Greg is on the other side of this debate.
    The CCA itself will spilt when Chuck is no longer in the picture…again, in my (pretty well informed) opinion.

  25. Michael I hear you and I know that Greg is on the other side my comment was based on the idea with someone with more credibility than George carrying that torch. There is no question that CCA will split when Chuck is gone but how many want George on their team?

  26. covered,

    I’m speculating, but I think George is doing the heavy lifting for someone like a Heitzig or Macintosh to benefit from…

  27. What do you think is going to happen? I think the vast majority of churches will stick with Calvary Chapel and teach whatever they want to teach, as long as it more or less lines up with the distinctives. I suppose a few will break away and be totally independent. Do you foresee a group of dissident churches banding together and forming their own non-denomination?

  28. Xenia,

    I think that you’ll first have two versions of CC.
    One that retains all the traditional CC distinctives and then you’ll also have the CCA for the more progressive wing.
    We’ve already seen some churches just become independent…and we’ll see more of that as well.

  29. Well, when they split and there is no longer a dove to hang, perhaps a few of these guys will mount a cross in their church. ;-)

  30. I agree with RB, CC is irrelevant in the big scheme of things, it’s all about Jesus

  31. Solomon,

    1500 churches and hundreds of thousands of parishioners is not irrelevant.

  32. I wonder which wing of Calvary Chapel that their real founder Lonnie Frisbee would be welcome in?

  33. “1500 churches and hundreds of thousands of parishioners is not irrelevant.”

    It is if they are haphazard independent, then it’s akin to a bunch of free agents and you have to count the churches as individuals or much smaller pieces.

  34. RB,

    @32…neither.

  35. RB,

    The brand may indeed become irrelevant because of those factors.

  36. It is appalling to me that this sort of statement from Bryson, on his own website, is not scrutinized more. This is Bryson’s “Salvation” and it doesn’t seem to be the Gospel, it might as well come from the devil’s own lips (if there is such an being):

    “The final measure will not be how much we know (in doctrinal or practical terms) but how right we are in what we believe and how we live our lives in light of the truth revealed to us in Scripture.”–George Bryson

  37. As far as impact or influence goes it is, they are just living on a mouthful of memories from the glory days. Goerge Bryson look like Cowboy Bill Watts

  38. When an Orthodox group of dissidents break off and form their own (non-canonical) church they usually come up with names like “The One Holy True Original Old Calendarist No-Pew Orthodox Church of North America, Matthewite.”

    (That was only a mild exaggeration.)

    I wonder what these new churches will call themselves. Is the name “Calvary Chapel” a registered trade mark?

  39. Xenia,

    Higgins is doing some variation like “Calvary Chapel 1966″ …I think you’ll see variations on that theme.

  40. “Calvary Chapel 1966″

    Does that mean Faith Healing shows a la Katherine Kuhlman? Is Higgins going to go full Benny Hinn? Yikes.

  41. 1966 Calvary Chapel (roughly)

    Chuck Smith, Lonnie Frisbee and Kathryn Kuhlman

    I wonder if this is what Higgins will go for, could be fun

  42. Hopefully they won’t try to blow up each other’s Mosques (so to speak).

  43. Poor Lonnie tried so hard to buy into the Transformation Gospel, but he found out that it’s false. He couldn’t stop having sex with other men. It must’ve tormented him greatly since he latched onto that false version of the Gospel.

  44. RB,

    Give some space to the others here…I don’t want to follow these other trails right now.
    I think Higgins and others are speaking of the original, eschatology driven message that was the foundation CC was built on.

  45. No dog in this hunt, but I would rather see CC folks pray about what God would do now than harken back to what was done back whenever. I think God did a fresh work then, and those wineskins won’t hold the new vintage. Just my thoughts.

  46. Maybe they’ll bring back Psalty!

  47. X,
    that is funny, but in a scary way. ;)

  48. I wonder if Higgins conducted informational forums at his church and put it up for a vote to see if that was what the congregation wanted to do – or did he just pick up his marbles?

  49. In 1976 which would probably be the tail end of the Jesus Movement I came to faith at CCCM. One thing I know for absolute certain God’s presence was there in a way that was awesome and unmistakeable as I look back.

    It was a Saturday night concert and then Tom Stipe gave the message. It was the first time I had heard and understood the Gospel and I knew I was hearing the truth. I had never been in a place like CCCM in my entire life. Young people filled with joy and love were everywhere. Randall Slack was probably the man who directed me to the prayer room after I had gone forward and said a sinner’s prayer.

    I was sent a Halley’s Bible Handbook and weekly lessons. I devoured it all and would drive to the church bookstore to buy books and tracts and shared my faith with everyone I knew. Many came to Christ and are still walking with him.

    I was transformed. I had a filthy mouth and that went by the wayside. I saw people and the world around me in a different way. My heart broke for the lost and my desire was to see them come to Christ.

    Knowing that God was so powerfully present when I was saved I felt confident that all I was taught was true. And as CC was all I knew I had nothing to compare what I was learning with.

    I can understand how those who were there before me find it so unthinkable to leave the only thing they have known and the things they have been taught.

    Through the years and especially after arriving here I slowly learned there were places God hung out that weren’t CC. It was a slow process for me to come to grips with the fact that CC wasn’t God’s chosen and set apart church of Philadelphia for these last days.

    Looking back I can see a lot of unfortunate stuff I was taught and how long it took for me to come to grips with things I held so precious.

    Sadly there may be those who are pastoring within CC’s that should not be. The reasons have been discussed here over the years. Yet I know without a doubt there are MANY within CC who have hearts for God and His people and would lay down their lives for them. I hope God would do mighty things in and through these men and women as things unfold.

    I pray for those in leadership who aren’t where they should be spiritually that God would pierce their hearts and they would come to repentance and act out whatever the results of that repentance should be.

    For the rest I can only hope and pray they do not bring further dishonor to the name of Christ.

    There’s a world around us in rebellion against God and I pray revival would begin with each of us and that God would move mightily in a nation that has turned its back to our creator. And if that happens through the Lutherans, Baptists, or any other group or denomination I pray that all of us would not choose to go after whatever God means God might choose to reach the lost here and throughout the world.

  50. Whether you like Calvary or not, I think this is the reality of what is happening.

    Bryson and Higgins represent the ideal of freedom and autonomy for the local church. Freedom is a valued attribute among Calvary pastors, It was what my former pastor emphasized over and over. Ironically, he is now a regional assistant.

    CCA and its structure represents the obvious: no one man has the goods to fill Chuck Smith’s shoes. While Chuck has said it is advisory in nature, the scope and strength of any authority will depend on how these individual region pastors play their hand and whether or not the rank and file in their region are willing to play along. Problem is, too many will recognize an ecclesiastical structure that does not actually exist, like in the case of those poor ignorant souls who played musical pastorate because the local big shot deemed it so.

  51. I came to a faith in Jesus Christ independent of Calvary Chapel, up in the Bay Area, and I got caught up in the Jesus People Movement in 1971, moved to Santa Ana to attend CCCM in 1978, stayed many years, moved on to Saddleback Church for awhile, ended up at Capo Beach Calvary back when ChuckJr was pastor, went to help some friends who started a gathering called TheEffect, then have returned to Capo Beach Church (post-Calvary) to help with worship at The Bridge recovery gathering while I continue to broaden my relationships within unaffiliated christian gatherings, expanding to Jewish friendships, and general non-declared, non-branded humans with broad affiliations in the arts, music and creative communities.

    The One Constant is Jesus, as culture changes, emphases from immanence to transcendence shifts, and learning how to mourn the loss of seasons and friends while preparing for my own “ongoing” within The Kingdom.

    Fads come and go and I have learned that I should define myself loosely and playfully because Jesus keeps showing up where I least expect Him.

    His presence is no longer only local, no longer dependent on tarrying meetings and post-service afterglows and soaks, now it’s at intersections of kindness from random humans, compassionate acts like school supply drives, and watching children grow into fine and admirable adults.

    Guess, for me, its about slowing down enough to pay attention to The God Who Is There.

    “CalvaryChapel1966″?
    …all I can say is, “Interesting”.

  52. @52

    “CalvaryChapel1966″?
    …all I can say is, “Interesting”.

    How ’bout Jesus 2013?

  53. Erunner, that was excellent! What a testimony!

  54. I am praying for the pastors and leadership. May they stay out of the filthy politics and power brokering and serve Jesus and His people in grace, truth and love.

  55. “Jesus, same as He ever was, same as He ever was…”
    ala Talking Heads ;)

  56. I think that going independent is a great move for those who realize that the ship is sinking. There will be nothing but dissension once Chuck is out of the way. I also believe that before it fractures completely, many abusers like BG and others will be told to step down. There’s no doubt that Chuck has protected some that the majority knows hurts the brand. These are just the opinions of one who has no dog in the hunt anymore.

  57. I certainly don’t understand how “1966″ being incorporated into a church name has any meaning at all, except to John Higgins. How does 1966 point to Christ and the truth of the gospel? This seems like a name exalting what a group of people did 50 years ago, rather than a church name and symbols, of what CHRIST has done for us.

  58. Good word Nonnie. Finishing strong is far more impressive.

  59. My church is thinking of leaving the LCMS and renaming ourselves as Luther 1517 :-)

  60. I don’t think this is as big a deal as Micheal thinks it is – this is strictly a pastor revolt. only the pastor is related to CC and only a pastor comes under any control of CCA.

    The pastor decides to leave and takes his assets and his people with him.

    If this were Lutherans, it would be a big deal because it would be the congregation deciding to leave the group – it would be hashed out in the congregation, the district and the synod before churches would leave.

    This revolt is led by pride – ‘my independence comes first’. Perhaps we should be saying “shame on these guys.”

  61. “1966 Calvary Chapel (roughly)” of course I want to sand paper my eyebrows off when seeing this. When Kathryn Kuhlman asked him if he was a new creature, what ever that means, did Lonnie Frisbee decide he was “gay” at some magic moment in his life or did he struggle with his sexuality during his entire life. How the heck does one struggle with their sexuality, that makes no sense at all. I did not get up some morning and decide to be straight, there was no great revelation. The people I know who are gay did not do that either. I dont get it. I mean I get the fact Lonnie help build the down line for the mother ship and that is good, but he “struggled” with his sexuality and that was bad. I mean he talked about experiencing Jesus when on drugs if I remember right, well no duh. Its like Ted Haggard everyone got all upset about Ted getting a “message” from what people said was a “gay” person but no one seemed to be bothered that Ted, at best, was seeking to try meth. I get that you can be a drunk, drug addict etc but if you are gay you are icky thus well never mind.

    I mean no disrespect but did any of you watch Kathryn Kuhlman services, please tell me you see the shtick. But CC built their back bone on this shifting sand, and they have the gall to tell the rest of us what is truth? Please, grow up. The minute those brothers sued each other they lost all credibility, am I wrong, did not Paul talk about that or is that another of those ignored verses in the ever changing evangelical text. Lonnie Frisbee was just some soul caught up in the marketing, do I think he was inspired or was there a move of the spirit, as long as he generated income / revenue yes it was the very second it was not, nope, God rejected him. look at the history prove me wrong. It is what it is, when Lonnie could bring in the “fresh fruit” he was God’s anointed, the second and I mean the very second he caused damage to the revenue stream, he was gone. Please dont believe me go watch the you tube videos please watch them in context.

    See Kathryn Kuhlman on the stage with Pastor Smith and ask yourself would she be welcomed now in this day and age, not a chance. How many bodies are buried under that monument? My opinion they sucked the live out of that guy and left him for dead, and when he finally fulfilled that calling they came to pay respects. Please dance on my grave before any of you do the same, it would be far more humane.

  62. I believe this is an overreaction Michael.

    Calvary Chapel is not a denomination, we are an affiliation of like minded pastors. Pastor Higgins decided he didn’t fit anymore so he left (because in his mind we changed). Others may as well. That being said, there is no loss to Calvary Chapel – if you are friends with John Higgins, that doesn’t change because he doesn’t associate with Calvary anymore. If, like me, you don’t know John then you aren’t affected in any way.

    The evidence that this is a non-issue is that I heard it here, not on the pastors listserver, not from CCA (which I am a part of) and not from any Calvary pastor I know.

    If tomorrow 800 Calvary pastors decide to move on and rename their ministries it would be a big story, but it doesn’t affect me in any way. If some of them are my friends, they will still be my friends.

  63. Shaun, I respectfully disagree. CC and especially those that call the shots are becoming fractured in several ways. The crash won’t be “800″ leaving at once, it will begin to crumble slowly. No one here said or expects other’s to remain friends or dissassociate themselves from others. It has nothing to do with friends, when the fertilizer hit the fan with me and Calvary, my Calvary friends and I remained close. It has to start somewhere and if CC pastor’s are being led by the Spirit and being called to go independent, that’s a start.

  64. Ixtlan nailed it at #51.

    “Bryson and Higgins represent the ideal of freedom and autonomy for the local church.”

    The mistake being made here is that people assume that Bryson speaks only for Bryson…I submit that his views represent the views of many, even if they don’t want George representing them.
    They would do well to listen to his objections, as he is articulating what is at risk.
    I obviously don’t have a dog in this hunt…I’m simply reporting and writing my observations.

  65. covered @57

    I don’t think anyone will be asked to leave.
    The “council of elders” would divide at that point…and the disaffiliated would have another branch of CC to go to if they did.

  66. Michael,
    But you must agree that this is just a CC pastor thing – if the pastor doesn’t like something, he picks up his church and leaves.

    If the pastor at an LCMS church is pissed at the synod, he cannot just pick up his church and go … even though as few know, LCMS churches are independent churches – but it’s the membership that decides.

    I see this (no matter how many leave) as no more than a personality conflict. When we see CC congregations making demands to the pastor that they dis fellowship from CC, CCCM & CCA, then perhaps I will put down the sports page and pay attention.

  67. MLD,

    It’s not a personality conflict, it’s a doctrinal conflict.
    As you’re well aware, congregations have no input in CC ecclesiastical decisions.
    This doesn’t make this less compelling to me as a historical and cultural milestone.
    I doubt that the congregations voted when the Lutherans split after the death of their founder…

  68. I believe the comments of some of the CC pastors show the great flaw in the CCA: you claim to be an association of pastors and yet claim the CC name for your whole church. That’s like my friend who is a family practitioner calling his house a hospital because a doctor resides there. It takes more than one doctor to make a hospital and it takes more than a pastor to make a church. Its kind of like how a king speaking in the royal “we”, as in “We are displeased”, conflating his feelings as those for the whole land. When a pastor thinks “his” church is a CC just because he is, then you have someone playing king and not pastor. The church is a community of believers under the headship of Christ, not subjects submitted to the rule of some pastor-king. Anyone with that “little king” attitude will not want to submit to anyone else besides the original over-king. Do all CC pastors have this attitude? Most certainly not. But I think there are some who do have this little king attitude and they will be the ones who will take their scepters and leave in a huff.

  69. It is said that most of what people worry about will never happen. I assume that rule applies to CC pastors worried about the future CCA. I personally do not see the issues at present.

    I do think, though CC is an affiliation of pastors, that a pastor owes it to the church to have a discussion and then vote before leaving – but once more, until the people are affected, I don’t see the concern myself.

    I would take exception, Michael, with one point. A “split” is not just people leaving. A split is when a group leaves en masse and forms their own group. Thus, a church split is not one family leaving, but 20-30 people (or more) leaving and starting their own work.

    Unless and until there is an attempt by someone to get a bunch of CC pastors to leave CCA and join some new organization, I do not think calling any of this a split really does justice to the term.

    That said, I duly acknowledge the riff, and that it is no small thing when a longtime pastor decides to leave – as is the case here.

  70. Steve,

    I think Bryson’s conference was the first step toward the split you speak of.
    Bryson’s language and attitude was not as combative as you would expect…in fact it was an attempt to be conciliatory as possible.
    Paul Smith wasn’t so nice…he said that unless the course was stayed those who wavered were headed to hell.
    It was the high point of the conference. :-)

  71. I do find all of this interesting, in a very voyeuristic sort of way. Hey, enquiring minds want to know!

    I would tend to lean more towards Shaun Sells’ take, as he is in the mix.

  72. Thank you Erunner for you testimony #50….. Indeed, there was a magnificent and supernatural move of God in ‘those days’…and it cannot be artifically or denominationally recreated. If we believe in the Sovereignty of God, then we continue to wait and pray for another supernatural outpouring and revival. I am a product of ‘those days’, too and am so grateful, knowing full well, it was not orchestrated by the minds of any man.

    Now in my 60s, I have several friends who a fixated on the past…. love old junk, movies, reminiscing, complaining about current times, etc….. all pointless, and to me, repulsive.
    I long for the giant sense and awareness of God’s Presence as it was in ‘those days’… alas, we cannot look backwards and have any vision for the present or future while doing so, IMO

    Pillars of Salt. How’s that for a church name?

  73. Paigemom,

    That was brilliant…well said, my friend!

  74. “Pillars of Salt. How’s that for a church name?”

    Ouch, good reminder for all of us who wish we could go back to doing things like we did in the good ol’ days.

  75. Carly Simon said it best…. “These are the good old days.” That always stuck with me.

  76. Michael @ 71 – “Paul Smith wasn’t so nice…he said that unless the course was stayed those who wavered were headed to hell.”

    So if his checks stop clearing that is when Armageddon begins?

  77. #73 is great Paigemom.

  78. “The mistake being made here is that people assume that Bryson speaks only for Bryson…I submit that his views represent the views of many, even if they don’t want George representing them. They would do well to listen to his objections, as he is articulating what is at risk.”

    This is a factual statement, and Michael is 100% correct on this point. Read it again. He’s right.

  79. John Higgins has always been about as wacky as the day is long. He is a hyper-last-days teacher, and has been for over 40 years. I can’t imagine why anyone would take him or what he does seriously.

    I don’t know what the fear is all about. Maybe some of the CC pastors are intimidated by other successful movements, who knows? How can one discredit Mark Driscoll or Rick Warren and their ministries? They aren’t the problem, but the immature CC pastors most definitely are. At times, it is an embarrassment to be a CC pastor.

  80. Andy,

    Thank you for the affirmation.

  81. DavidM,

    There is such a divide that there has to be a split.
    The divisions have been there for a few years…this season is just bringing them to the fore.
    You make some very good points.

  82. DavidM – DON’T BE ONE – PLEASE!!

  83. David,

    “How can one discredit Mark Driscoll or Rick Warren and their ministries? They aren’t the problem, but the immature CC pastors most definitely are.”

    Over the past 10 years I have sat in John’s AZ church, and then was marked as a “bad person” by John. I have done extensive research of John’s Shiloh records. I think I have a pretty good understanding of John. In my opinion, he needs people he views as enemies, heretics, apostates and a threat to his church. He uses those he “marks” as a way to keep those in his pews from interacting with beleivers outside his influence.

    When it comes to John leaving CCA, CCCM, there is more to the story. One thing is for sure he has just added another “apostate” group to warn his congregation about, keep those “sheep” scared and they will not stray far from the shepherd.

    Chuck

  84. I can’t see any quantifiable metric to vet Jackie and others who see “the truth” regarding “apostasy” etc in the church.

    I don’t see them doing verifiable miracles that would prove their authority like the Apostles and Jesus, I don’t see them calling fire down from heaven like OT prophets and they don’t make specific prophecies that come true…or they make specific prophecies (like Pat Robertson, Chuck Smith etc) that don’t come true which invalidates them as true prophets by their own Presupposionalist standard.

    It’s pretty much just their own minds and their own opinions of what they think they see in the bible and especially the book of revelation.

  85. At least the mainlines and reformed etc have some sort of standard and hermeneutic they appeal to…the charismatics, not so much. It’s all goofy with nothing you pin down..it’s jello and the prognostications change often, though they all seem to expect a literal anti-christ and literal one world religion. How we get there, when we get there and who its going to be changes a lot.

  86. “I can’t see any quantifiable metric to vet Jackie and others who see “the truth” regarding “apostasy” etc in the church.”

    This statement is irrelevant. Because the person that perceives apostasy, is doing so based on their understanding of a Biblical mandate (Acts 17:11), not based some ability to do miracles.

    If a person sees apostasy, then that is what they see. And there are many like them. MANY. Many don’t want to be part of the kum ba yah blob of “Christendom” that lacks doctrinal distinctiveness, the blob that just goes along with everyone that claims to be Christian, claims to be in a so-called “tribe” etc etc. You can call them bigots, fundies, whatever makes you happy. But they aren’t interested in joining the blob.

    And their numbers are far greater than you think.

  87. I like Bryson. I don’t agree with him on much at all but I think he is a really nice guy. I just thought I would say that.

  88. “based on their understanding of a Biblical mandate”

    Yes, Individual as Authority…same as Universal Reconciliationists. Apostasy Wonks are using their Reason and Conscience applied to what they believe the bible says to come up with their truth…which is my underlying premise.

    There is no quantifiable metric to prove their Authority, it’s purely subjective interpretation of what they believe the bible says.

  89. The only difference with Apostasy Wonks and Universal Reconciliationists is in the iffy logic/reason they are applying in picking and choosing their way through the biblical text. At least Universal Reconciliationists appeal to the nature of a “good” “loving” “merciful” “all powerful” God capable of Free Will and apply a Greater Truth principle to the biblical narrative.

    Apostasy Wonks appeal to ever-changing headlines applied to the very subjective book of Nostradamus, I mean Revelation.

  90. Amen Andrew. – The Blob-free Zone.

  91. I would be willing to bet that none of the above mentioned people in the article capitalize so many non-essential words as RB does.

  92. Over the years I have discovered that I can disagree with some very lovely and loving people. Please remember, WE are NOT the enemy.

  93. Nonnie,

    They identify who they are by their enemies…it’s far better to just do the good work you are doing and ignore them.

  94. “They identify who they are by their enemies…” That is very sad.

  95. I don’t see “the church” as nearly a blob…there are 9,000 (james white’s number) to 30,000 denominations and mainlines and they all disagree on all sorts of issues. The church is more like world in terms of the different factions of humanity and governments that very loosely agree on global trade/monetary system and that’s about it.

  96. Yes Ricky – There are many buzzards in the branches

  97. The idea of people identifying apostasy as they see it, usually angers people that don’t want such things discussed. I’m not sure why anyone would be angered by such things. I suppose there’s some holier-than-thou reason why using your Bible and brain at the same time to identify falsehoods is somehow “unloving”. But those that get the most angry at such exposures, seem to protest too much, and seem to be a little too threatened by the whole thing.

    After all, if using your Bible and brain at the same time is somehow “wrong”, then the Lord Jesus didn’t know it was wrong. Having a viewpoint is something that everyone has. Everyone draws the line in different places perhaps, but everyone eventually draws a line somewhere, no matter how “inclusive/loving/tolerant” they view themselves to be. They have lines in life that you can’t cross too. So much for inclusive and tolerant.

    Anyway, such apostasy-exposing people will be hated more and more as we get closer to the end. Since there is a party scheduled by the enemy, and those apostasy-exposing people keep raining on the party. Oh well, you’ll have to figure out another way to get us out of the way. :) The new age movement has some suggestions on how to accomplish that.

    But to tie it back to Michael’s original post, he is correct. Bryson is not afraid to just stand up and say what he believes about these matters. And I personally believe that Chuck Smith is in line with Bryson far more than people think.

  98. We used to lay on a big rock in the summer up in the mountains and look for “shooting stars.” Some were spectacular, others not so. But it was the “shooting stars” that caught our attention and called forth our comments. What we failed to notice were the millions of stars holding their place.

    I have been a CC pastor for 28 years and from where I sit, there will be some spectacular “leavings” from the CC family. I don’t see a split as much as a splintering. There will be some defections and much bickering and it will be this is what will catch the attention of many and call forth the various comments and subsequent analysis. Yet if you look beyond the “shooting stars” you will find that the vast middle will hold and continue on their course.

    Tim Brown, Pastor
    Calvary Chapel Fremont

  99. Pastor Tim – John Higgins is not defecting from Calvary Chapel – he is defecting from the modern day anything goes version of what the movement has become, holding onto its original vision. I pray you hold fast to the work you did at the first as the splintering begins. If you do, that may leave you with Jesus outside the camp. Love you and praying for you.

  100. Jackie,

    That rather stupidly infers that Jesus won’t be near those who don’t leave.
    You might want to back that up with facts.

  101. What I am saying is that Jesus is not guiding the ones who are going emergent. They are the ones being divisive – and I am working on a show-and-tell documentary to establish that fact.

  102. What does “going emergent” even mean?

  103. Hi, Jackie – I remember w fondness the years that you and Bill were in the church here. We had our run-ins, didn’t we – and I came to appreciate you and began to understand (if not fully agree with) the perspective(s) you brought to the table. It’s difficult for me to see what you are seeing. It is one thing to identify this congregation, this pastor, or even this cluster of pastors as “going emergent.” (And as someone already commented, I am not really sure what that means.) But to speak of ‘what the movement has become’ leaves me bewildered. The movement is not monolithic and a few pastors leaving to preserve their integrity is a personal decision and obviously not one shared by all.

    If remaining in the movement compromised my conscience, I would have to make that same journey. But just because Calvary Pastor Big-Shot does or says something – I’m indifferent to that. His arrogance, stupidity, lack of intellectual honesty doesn’t defile me or the movement. If some want to smear the movement by the insipid acts of celebrity pastors, that’s on them. A shooting star here or there doesn’t mean the sky is falling. Where am I missing it?

  104. Tim – I know it looks muddled from your viewpoint which is why I hope to work on ways to assist CC’s discerning concerned pastors clarify their position with show-and-tell documentation. Please pray for me that I do so with accuracy and in the Spirit of Christ.

  105. Hi, Jackie – things are crystal clear from my viewpoint. This is an awkward phrase – you are working on ways to help CC’s discerning concerned pastors clarify their position…

    I’m not sure what that means. Are you wanting to help the ones leaving, the ones staying, the ones who are unsure? And how will you help them in ways they are not already helped?

  106. I’ll have to make sure to have more popcorn handy to watch this Calvary Chapel emergent witch hunt civil war play out. I got no dog in that fight. I think “going emergent” is akin to McCarthyism in the 40′s and 50′s…but it will be fun to watch the theatrics.

    All this energy on something that is completely subjective and not concrete like accountability in finances, protecting children and helping the poor etc. Typical of Selective Fundamentalists. Sound and fury signifying nothing. It would be a complete waste of time and energy save the entertainment value it presents.

    Keep us posted, we’ll be watching!

  107. What are the specific beefs?

    Can any of the Apostasy Wonks on here give me a concrete position/assertion of what is “Apostasy” and what are the clear definitions and examples of such in a church or church leader?

  108. Thanks Ricky Bobby, yes, it will be interesting to see if anyone from Calvary Chapel pays attention to the self appointed heresy hunters

  109. Here’s Jackie’s usual conclusion summed up by another author…

    http://thisisnthappiness.com/post/57365411418/really-really

  110. Tim – If you want to discuss this with me, you know how to reach me.

  111. If there is apostasy in CC, there is no need for a witch hunt. I would pray that the congregations that don’t want to go along with the “anything goes” attitude would simply leave the brand altogether. Its a kind of like vote with your feet on the congregational level. I don’t see how sticking around and fighting would do a hoot of good for what maybe be becoming a corrupt bunch in both practice and doctrine.

  112. But just because Calvary Pastor Big-Shot does or says something – I’m indifferent to that. His arrogance, stupidity, lack of intellectual honesty doesn’t defile me or the movement. If some want to smear the movement by the insipid acts of celebrity pastors, that’s on them. A shooting star here or there doesn’t mean the sky is falling. Where am I missing it?

    ______________________________________________________________________

    Here is where I see you may be missing it. The face of CC is now CCA which is in fact a bunch of celebrity pastors. CC is the advisory board for CC and although I am sure some would vehemently deny this but I think a case could be made that they are also the ruling board unless of course they have completely banished the concept of affiliation. And if there is no affiliation what exactly are people leaving? So in a nutshell CC is all about celebrity pastor. Of course there are some good non celebrity CC pastors out there but they don’t represent the movement as a whole. It seems celebrity pastors do.

  113. Hi, Andrew – as has been represented to us (rank and file pastors) CCA is an administrative board purely for the purposes of facilitating affiliation. If it becomes more than this, if it arrogates to itself authority it does not have and is not mandated with, a new crisis will brew. I am on the regional (N. Cal., Nevada) CCA team. All we do is help pastors who want to affiliate with CC – that’s it, nothing more.

    I’m not sure who or what the face of CC is, but with all the guys here in the SF Bay Area, the heart of the movement is Christ. Chuck may be at the top, CCA may be at the top, but Christ is at the center. We care more about the center than the top. Tops come and go – we gravitate to the center.

    You provide two premises:
    CCA is the advisory board of CC.
    CCA is in fact a bunch of celebrity pastors.
    Your conclusion:
    In a nutshell CC is all about the celebrity pastor.

    Your conclusion is a non-sequitur – it doesn’t follow. I do agree with you that there are some good non-celebrity pastors – in fact, there’s a lot! I work and labor beside them and they love Jesus and they love people. Possibly, you think that we have a higher regard for the celebrity pastor than we really do. If Greg Laurie or Raul Ries were to say, “OK, guys – we’re going to begin to allow Reformed doctrine to be taught from our pulpits,” they would be ignored. If Joe Focht or Bob Coy were to say, “OK, guys – we’re going to go in the direction of cessationism,” they would be ignored. From where I sit, no one, and no one group, has the ‘juice’ to recalibrate our basic DNA. And again, if this or that church or a cluster of churches goes off in one direction that doesn’t mean the movement is going in that direction. Shooting stars don’t mean that the sky is falling. Thanks for the conversation.

    Tim Brown, Pastor
    Calvary Chapel Fremont

  114. And again, if this or that church or a cluster of churches goes off in one direction that doesn’t mean the movement is going in that direction.
    ____________________________________________________________________

    Hi Tim thanks for weighing in. I think for me, when someone mentions “movement” it implies something that transcends one particular group and across denominational lines. When you mention “our basic DNA”, you are referring to CC specifically. When people talk about the CC movement, I begin to wonder if what they are really referring to is growth or decline in their own brand and not really a movement at all. If it is confined to only CC it is not really in my definition a movement. Now I do see a general trend of many American churches heading off into apostasy and this is of great concern. So you are right that if a cluster of churches goes off in one direction that doesn’t mean the movement is going in that direction. And if CC is the cluster of churches going the wrong way, don’t be surprised to see many leaving the fold.

  115. Hi, Andrew – I see now that you are talking about apple and I’m talking about oranges. Yes, when I use the word ‘movement’ I am referring only to the CC movement and not a broad swath of evangelicalism.

  116. and to think I missed last nights conversation to go for a walk with my wife…. ;)

    what IS emergent anyway?

    I see Calvary Chapel as having growing pains. There is the tension of defining who they are, holding on to the values that are timeless while at the same time applying them in today’s culture. And also re-evaluating convictions that cannot carry the water back to camp. Calvary has always been a movement that brings much attention, focus and allegiance to their superstars. Perhaps this is an opportunity for the pastors to actually think for themselves rather than to default to whatever their favorite star is saying.

  117. Perhaps this is an opportunity for the pastors to actually think for themselves rather than to default to whatever their favorite star is saying.

    ______________________________________________________________________

    Good word and not just opportunity for pastors but for everyone to think for themselves.

  118. CC pastors are hard headed, stubborn, no-one-can-tell-us-anything, independent types AND can’t-think-for-ourselves fawning sycophants panting for the next tweet from the celebrity pastor du-jour. Yikes! I can’t keep up with all these expectations!

  119. Tim @115 – Good word there. I agree with you.

  120. Calvary Chapel’s “original original” vision, was to have every church very independent. They “fellowship” based on agreement in doctrine and practice (i.e. the distinctives book), so that a person could know what to expect in general when coming to any Calvary Chapel. Right or wrong, I believe that was the vision at the start. Which is why I believe that this “affiliation process” via CCA and what have you, is actually against the original version.

    The problem now is, as someone stated, is that Calvary Chapel is becoming “celebrity pastor” driven, more and more. So what happens when your local “celebrity pastor” goes off track, in your doctrinal/practice view? How does that affect your “affiliation” and reputation as a Calvary Chapel. What does all of that mean?

    In my opinion, it means nothing.

    Even with the brand name label on the door, people are still individuals. I have walked into Calvary Chapels that really weren’t Calvary Chapels at all, in the “original version” sense. Not even close. So what? I left and didn’t go back. Others felt the deviation from the “original version” was better, and they stayed.

    This is why, there are not “30,000 denominations”. There are billions of denominations, in reality. By design. Each person stands alone before Jesus.

    And each Calvary Chapel will stand alone and be what it is, and if they feel the name “Calvary Chapel” becomes a liability for them, then they will become “The River Church” or whatever.

    Because, this happens in every fellowship of (originally) like-minded churches.

    Charles Wesley would be thrown out of many modern “methodist” churches, if he were visiting them to speak from the pulpit, instead of in the ground.

  121. Pastor Brown,
    Speaking only for myself, I am not asking you to meet any expectations. What I am pointing out is a general yet pervasive view of what Calvary Chapel has become. If you do not see yourself as such, great. I am simply making an observation that I think many, both in and out of Calvary would agree.

  122. I am not sure what bumps in the road will take place in the affiliation process going forward when it comes to new church plants.

    However, the new CCA way of doing things is going to be a HUGE improvement over the old ways when it comes to pastors retiring and churches replacing their Senior Pastor – which will be happening more and more as the years go on….

  123. Right or wrong, I believe that was the vision at the start
    _____________________________________________________

    Who’s vision? Chuck Smith’s vision?

  124. Hi, lxtlan – we all have our vantage point. Mine is as an insider (though I am a small fish in a big pond). In some ways it is easy to speak of the movement as a whole. In other ways comments can only come from one’s unique vantage point. I am a stranger to the general and prevailing view of which you speak. I am intimately acquainted with men who have their nose to the grindstone everyday – not caught up in any politics of the movement – not wanting to be caught up in any politics of the movement – in one way, could care less about the politics of the movement outside just the curiosity of knowing what’s going on. We have our mandate from Jesus to serve Him and the body. The men I serve with are the farthest from the domineering pastor I read of or the sycophant I read of. Have their been exceptions – yes. But that’s what it is – exceptions. To define something by its exceptions and not its prevailing essence is not helpful. Many see exceptions, I see essence. But a shooting star doesn’t mean that the sky is falling.

    On one hand, I feel foolish writing in a defensive posture about men I love and admire and a movement I am proud to be a part of. On the other hand I sense a need to exhort all to Christian charity in measuring the faults they see. To tar and feather an entire movement for the shenanigans of a few is not a Christian ethic.

    And I agree w Steve in 124 – the new affiliation process decentralizes the affiliation process and widely disseminates authority. It is the opposite of a power play.

  125. “Who’s vision? Chuck Smith’s vision?”

    I think Calvary Chapel is going to (rightly) prefer to say it is the Holy Spirit’s vision, but if you personally prefer to call it tomato tahmato.

  126. “shenanigans of a few”

    It’s way more than a few.

  127. Don’t be discouraged Tim.
    A Calvary Chapel pastor on here is like throwing chum in the water for the sharks. ;)

  128. I like this Tim Brown fellow. In an era when common sense just isn’t that common, he seems to have been blessed with an abundance of it.

  129. The sharks aren’t in the water, they are the regulars on this ship, and that is common.

  130. I am glad that Tim is on the PP, I don’t know how long he’ll hang here, but he is a genuine servant without an ego and is loved by many. I admire the fact that he is a ‘stand alone’ guy. There are many CC Pastors that do not deserve to be labeled “celebrity driven” or “sycophants”. There are many like-minded, low paid, overworked CC pastors who carry the cross of Jesus and suffer daily for the sake of the Gospel. Guys like Tim, myself and others stay in fellowship with each other in order to hold each other accountable. For the very fact we do not want to end up disqualified or accused of hurting His body. We are not above anyone else, we are just trying to be faithful to what God Himself has called us to do. We know one day we’ll be accountable to no one but Him only as to our faithfulness to that call. So before you take a bite out of one of us, pray first for God to bless your meal. (Joke…) We would rather be amongst real sharks than fellow believers mocking or putting us down because of our call to Calvary Chapel. With love, Jeff

  131. It’s way more than a few Jeff, way more, and throwing in ‘our call’, says a lot. Low paid, how much should I send? (Joke…)

  132. Pastor Brown,
    yes, we all have our different vantage point and sense of ethical behavior which is how we come to different conclusions. There was a time I would have agreed with you, but the experience of many voices, including my own, has told me otherwise. I don’t see the need to rehash or review every case and speaking in general terms is not only expedient but within the bounds of ethics. In other words, I’m just calling it as I see it and with much more grace than you realize.

  133. Q,

    Have you ever considered actual dialog instead of just hostility?
    Consider the fact that these men are here and willing to hear…what would you like to say?
    I can affirm experientially the truth that Jeff has spoken without ever retracting specific negative things I’ve said about specific men of their affiliation.
    This is not a monolithic group…

  134. “Consider the fact that these men are here and willing to hear…what would you like to say?”

    I said it, way more than a few.

    Plus, No, they seem to be here to defend themselves and their (low paid) occupation or affiliation.

  135. Q,

    I find it odd that it would be considered a bad thing for one to want to defend what they believe in and the group they choose to belong to.

    The presentation of another side of a story simply makes us more informed…it doesn’t negate what we already know.

    I have found it to be distressing that when these men come on the blog that people think that something will be accomplished with demagoguery alone.

    Calvary Chapel may be splitting, but it won’t disappear, so I believe that starting real dialog with those who will engage is more fruitful than just spitting in their general direction.

  136. “Q,”

    “Have you ever considered actual dialog instead of just hostility?”

    Yes, that is chum in the water (ship).

    Way more than a few!

  137. Q,

    Brilliant, thoughtful response as always.

  138. Not a response, posted same time as you (typing as you posted).

    As usual that is a false assumption ‘as always’.

  139. I love you Jeff….. I even like you. But I can’t buy into your #132. I do what I do because I’m called to do it. I trust we all do. The difficulties I encounter in my ministry are not much different than the difficulties I encountered living a christian life before I stepped into pastoral ministry. Yes, the concentration is greater due to the nature of our vocation, but a trial is a trial. The times where I feel like I cannot take another step are the times He lifts me up upon eagles wings. His grace is commensurate with His calling. I have learned that most cannot possibly understand the life of a pastor and the truth is, we shouldn’t expect them to. I am not looking for anyone’s sympathy and I do not want to ever sound like Elijah at Horeb. I can always quit, get a job at Home Depot, which for me would be a pay raise. The truth is, I love what I do and it is my best life…. now.

    I would rather swim with the family than sharks any day, even if they take shots at me, my church, and the movement I am a part of. We usually learn much about ourselves by our critics, that is if we can get past the initial hurt and anger. Zig Ziegler once said that most would rather be ruined by praised than saved by criticism. I’ve been ruined too many times to not see the opportunity that a critique might bring.

  140. Michael,

    Why is it you can not let a CC pastor answer for themselves?

    Why when they say something that is dubious and are refuted do you jump in?

    It seems weird for you to jump in every time so quickly.

    They can speak for themselves, do you think you are their great protector?

  141. Michael,

    When you jump in, sometimes any possible dialog ends.

    That should not be.

    What ax are you grinding?

  142. Q,
    I sincerely doubt that any CC pastor considers the Phoenix Preacher a “protector”.
    What I am trying to do is encourage and facilitate intelligent, constructive dialog.
    Your comments are usually nothing close to either.

  143. Q,

    My ‘ax” is a sincere desire to see real interaction that leads to positive change.

  144. Michael,

    I’m positive there is more than a few and recognizing that would be a positive change.

  145. Michael,

    If you want interaction why do you keep jumping in, that ends any possible interaction, they are grown men (authoritarians) and can speak and interact if the want, but you always step in and defend a fallacy rather then let them respond.

    You end up their apologist (defender) because??? They wont come back and post some jaded view?

  146. Q,

    I didn’t defend anyone, I was dealing with the substance of what was being said that you simply ignored in favor of another shot.

    I didn’t defend any fallacy other than pretending that you have anything of value to add…

  147. Michael,

    Yes you did, just let a CC pastor respond. You say I add no value, how edifying, you must be a pastor. If I add (joke…) it makes it cool, right.

  148. Q, Name ten. Ten Senior Pastors by name that are still pastoring Calvary Chapels…by name and with the accusation of their “shenanigans”

    If as you say there are “way more than a few” then ten names should come to you with ease.

    List their names – go on record with your charge, you can even stay annonymous as you do so.

    It’s your accusation – I’m calling you on it. There’s your interaction.

    (And don’t waste time with guys from the past that were booted from their churches and CC affiliation when sin became known)

  149. Q,

    I haven’t stopped anyone from responding.
    My influence doesn’t extend to controlling keyboards worldwide.
    I encourage people to interact.
    Interaction is usually not facilitated by insults.
    As this is my blog, I also get to respond when I want to and I plan on continuing to do so.
    If this is a burden to your soul, click through to something that edifies you.

  150. Wow, just realized I need to get up early tomorrow, good night.

    Steve that is what you did after asking me multiple questions (like seven) and then signing off. remember?

    How do I know you will be available for my response?

    There’s one shenanigan.

  151. I take it back there is not a few, there is many.

  152. I wonder if there are ten CC Calvary chapel pastors without meaningful accountability, do not surround them selves with yes men , control all the finances, are in extreme ecumenism, have embraced eastern mysticism (contemplative prayer, yoga, psychology), love the wages of Balaam (retirement seems to be an issue with some), intellectualism, elitism, pragmatism, Ideology over doctrine, craftiness, gossip (to hold on to there positions).

    No many more than ten.

    Tell you what Steve renounce being paid for your education and service and put your trust in God for you income and serve without charge and then you can teach me how to live Godly by faith in this world.

    Or maybe I could teach you.

    Or did you challenge me again and check out.

  153. Q likes the broadbrush unless it is directed towards him.

  154. Q, your 154 is ridiculous.

  155. “Who’s vision? Chuck Smith’s vision?”

    I think Calvary Chapel is going to (rightly) prefer to say it is the Holy Spirit’s vision, but if you personally prefer to call it tomato tahmato.
    ____________________________________________________________________

    Andy, When you mean vision do you mean prophecy of what Calvary Chapel would become or has become? I am trying to wrap my head around what you mean by vision. And how the CCA is going against the (original original) vision. The question is today are we to follow a vision or what the Bible says?

  156. Well, I can at least speak for my self. I am not surprised that once again Q proves himself to be one very dishonest cowardly fraud.
    I want to join Steve W. in calling out Q – name the names and list the offenses.

    This is your chance to change our minds.

  157. @134 Hi, lxtlan

    May you continue to walk in grace.
    May the Lord continue to fill you with His Spirit.
    May you be stunned at the depths of the Lord’s suffering, amazed by the blinding power of our Lord’s resurrection, exalted by the dizzying heights of our Lord’s ascension, and comforted by His present session of intercession for you.

  158. Q:
    God is for you, who then can be against you!
    No one can bring a charge against you for you have been justified by God!
    You are wonderfully and marvelously loved by a God who can’t keep His hands off you!
    Nothing can or will separate you from God’s love for you. God is for you like the horns of a wild ox!
    May God give you sufficiency to to comprehend the breadth and length and height and depth of Christ’s love that you may be filled up to all the fullness of God.

  159. BG, Lance Cook, Raul Ries, Skip Hietzig, Ralph Wood, Bryson (can’t rule his own family well, per literal interp of ‘perfect’ bible he’s disqualified), Mark Balmer, John Higgins, Rudy Paredes, Don Stewart (Pastor’s Perspective is a pastor’s position).

    There’s a ton more, but there’s 10.

  160. Once again Steve Wright is Steve Wrong.

  161. You think you could win in court against any of those 10?

  162. Ricky Bobby, I asked for names AND charges. Good to see you try to carry the water for Alex Grenier’s fan club. Funny how few of those men have accusations on Grenier’s Abuse page in order to warn the public. Grenier is probably fearful of getting into more legal trouble since Grenier’s strategy seems to be hoping judges dismiss suits rather than vindicate his charges. But Ricky, you should tell Grenier the info you have on these men.

    I now have my own page in Grenier’s desperate attempt to publish dirt. I’m sure, Ricky, if you have the goods on these men, he would love to trash them.

  163. Steve, your comments are distasteful by apparently approving of a pastor suing his step son in court. Your true colors are apparent.

  164. Andrew, do you approve of lies, insinuation, and gossip as means to ruin the good name of a pastor?

  165. I’m going to step away from the blog for a while. As long as Pastor Steve is allowed to be defamed in this way, I don’t want to be here.

  166. Steve W. has tried to honestly engage with people and doesn’t deserve these kinds of attacks. .

  167. Steve, Michael has the same and similar info. He chooses not to address it for the same reasons I do. Calvary Chapel is very litigious and has deep pockets, we don’t.

    Michael, your supposed friend, has the same “dirt” as you call it and is one of the leading Pioneers in the field of trying to hold your Affiliated Brothers accountable.

    Every time you take a shot at me, you take a shot at him and call into question his work that preceded mine.

  168. IF Michael has ever started a page that basically said, “This guy looks good, but I don’t believe it. Please, somebody tell me something horrible about him. Anybody?!?”, I haven’t seen it, and if he did, he was wrong in doing so.

    That’s disgusting, and you know it. You don’t care, because you just want to make sure someone gets hurt.

    Good job.

  169. You other “friends” of Michael on here who seem to always chime in and pile on insult him as well. Michael taught me what I thought at the time was a worthy and just and righteous cause. I have since learned that you all are full of bull and now the church can implode and by monumental hypocrites and liars and I don’t care to carry that burden. i see the truth for what it is now and if God is real, he’s not in the church and if God is truly good and merciful and all powerful and has free will and is Love, then he will redeem the whole mess including the corrupt church and lying Christians*

  170. Josh, I don’t believe Steve. I guess we’ll find out. It’s a good sign that it’s quiet. Time will tell.

  171. RB,

    I have posted some dirt on some of those names when I had the documentation to do so.
    I have no problem with that.
    What I don’t have (because I don’t believe any exists) is dirt on Steve Wright.
    There is a page up on calvarychapelabuse.com searching for dirt and questioning the good that he’s done simply because the owner doesn’t like him.
    That’s not right or righteous or fair.
    If it were done to that owner in his field he would be justifiably angry.
    I have large philosophical differences with Steve on a number of issues…but we have fellowship in Christ and I call him my friend without equivocation.

    The reality is that for many any Calvary Chapel pastor is guilty by association with Calvary Chapel.
    There is no dialog possible.
    While I understand the dynamic it makes any progress impossible.
    Perhaps it’s time I accepted that.

  172. It is the peak of irony and insult to listen to you guys rail against accountability…on Michael’s blog who is “the” Calvary Chapel patriarch of publishing the “dirt” as you call it on all the CC pastors and the Calvary Chapel System of churches..

    Are your blind spots really that big? Are you being funny? Are you that ignorant?

  173. I disagree. I find nothing wrong with it, no more than you allowing folks to question me on here without moderation. I don’t believe the hype about Steve, I think there might be another side to the story. If not, great.

  174. The more you guys blog, the more you are a support for what I’ve come to learn about the church and Christianity*.

  175. “I find nothing wrong with it,”

    Then you have no concept of right and wrong, which pretty much sums up your character, as presented here and on your blog.

  176. OK…last words everyone…this is not good for anyone.
    I’ll give one more response and then I’m shutting it down.

  177. Andrew, do you approve of lies, insinuation, and gossip as means to ruin the good name of a pastor?
    _____________________________________________________________________

    Nope. And do you approve of suing your son?

  178. Andrew, in this case, he had no other choice.

  179. “Then you have no concept of right and wrong”

    I don’t beat my kids, I don’t own slaves or sex slaves (concubines) as permitted and endorsed in the bible, I don’t execute my children with stones as “right” punishment for gluttony and rebellion, my wife can speak in church or wherever she wants despite what the bible calls “wrong” etc.

  180. Sure he did, He could have told the truth like the bible says and confessed and repented, but that’s folly. In reality, that stuff is for suckers.

  181. Andrew, in this case, he had no other choice.
    ____________________________________________________________________

    That is a big fat lie. No one made anyone sue.

  182. Andrew, should he then have admitted to molesting a child? Even if he didn’t do it? No choice. Sue, or admit it.

  183. Josh, I believe Paul, but I don’t have BG on video doing it. I did, however, experience the other abuses that BG denies in the lawsuit.

    Josh is this “right or wrong”?

    However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way.–the Bible

    When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl’s owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment.–the Bible

    When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property–the Bible

  184. There were many avenues to resolve that other than a law suit.
    All of them should have been exhausted before hand.
    Whatever one may think of RB, the way this was mishandled and ignored created much of the problem.
    I’ll defend Steve, but there’s no way in hell I will defend what happened in Visalia.
    When there is no process to address accusations biblically, this is the result.
    This is the issue where resolution has to be negotiated or the conflicts will continue forever.
    Think of all the pain that could have been avoided if there had been biblical conflict resolution employed in this matter.
    It boggles the mind.

  185. No choice. Sue, or admit it.
    ______________________________

    Why not make public statement instead. Also why not sue his blood son making accusation and not step son just reporting the accusation?

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