Oct 272013
 

chuck-smith-memorial-615x266Click here for the link to the Chuck Smith memorial service.

I’ll be in church, so no moderation will be available.

  87 Responses to “Chuck Smith Memorial Service”

  1. I’ll be at church too. A friend is being ordained tonight. If it’s recorded/podcast, etc. I’ll probably watch.

  2. We’ll be watching…… have prayed for God’s glory, not glory to man. Any man.

  3. I will be watching. Pastor Chuck had a tremendous impact upon life (as have many others) and his death seems to a rite of passage or the end of an era for many of us. While I disagree with him and the movement on many things I owe a great debt of gratitude to them and in some small way I feel like watching this is a bit of a thank you.

  4. I wish I could be there live. I’m watching.

  5. Greg asked Chuck what do you want to be remembered for when you’re in heaven? And he said, “when I’m in heaven the focus will upon Jesus and him alone and that is what it’s really all about.” Amen.

  6. This is very moving to be honest, I think I will have to turn it off, hits to close to home and brings up lots of memories and grief.

  7. That story Don McClure where he lied and gave Chuck’s name instead of his when he was in trouble with the power company was a bit weird.

  8. You stay put in that silver chair brian.

    Yeah, R C, that was strange. I can’t imagine Chuck being THAT competitive.

  9. Love how Skip filmed his portion in his massive auditorium….not on accident.

  10. I’m afraid of Skip. Just sayin’.

  11. Wow! Jon Courson’s aging took me by surprise, I guess I haven’t seen him live in years. Pastors don’t age well…I have way more gray than I should for my age.

  12. I didn’t recognize Tom Stipe. I liked his style of teaching back in the day.

  13. Well, I got over to to casino hotel for my weekly stay for work here on the Oregon coast and tuned in the broadcast. I’ve yet to hear anyone glorifying Chuck Smith.

    Lots of folks expressing gratitude and appreciation, but no glorification. In fact, I think most of the speakers have done a good job keeping the focus on the Lord.

    I appreciated hearing some personal tidbits about Chuck from Brian Broderson and even Don McClure. Certainly gave insights into the fact that Chuck put his pants on one leg at time like the rest of us.

  14. Chuck put his pants on one day at a time. 😉

    Can’t wait to hear from Kay.

  15. Oh boy…between Malcolm’s talking about how Jesus greets “great saints” by standing and now Jeff Johnson talking about how God has blessed CC because “we pray for the peace of Jerusalem” the theology is really going down hill…enjoying it nonetheless.

  16. Today is Chuck’s day.

  17. That was very moving (the Isreali). That was cool. Significant even.

  18. Will this be available to see in the future??

  19. Yes, it’ll be at their bookstore.

  20. I remember Chuck at camp. We had to keep our elbows off the table.

  21. We had the “Big Bible Band”. I brought my sketch pad and drew their pictures. With a little imagination you can recognize them. People were getting healed in the infirmary. That was in 1971.

  22. Alistair Beg. Didn’t see that one coming.

  23. Have enjoyed and been encouraged by so much of this. But James MacDonald just had to include mentioning that he just spoke to thousands at a conference and he started a hundred churches. Even though it’s suppose to be about Chuck, James makes everything about him, ugh.

  24. Greg Laurie stands out.

  25. Just ignore him. I took a break. By the way, how do you pronounce your name?

  26. Oops, Not Greg, James.

  27. Greg is a great speaker. Funny too.

  28. There is a time to mourn. This is the end of an era. Not to worry, a new era is coming

  29. Greg is really in the moment.

  30. It was at a friday lunch at my high school where we Christians ate lunch together on the front lawn that I witnessed Greg come to Christ. He has been this way from the beginning of his walk with the Lord. Full of energy and sincere. He has never been anything but what you see now, a dedicated servant of Christ.

  31. That is so cool, david! Don’t tell anyone but it’s Greg who’s the heir apparent.

  32. The Lord spoke to me in many ways tonight…I am really glad I watched it, Jesus did a great work in my heart tonight.

  33. I got a silver chair out of it.

  34. He does have a presence or chrasima that validates your statement in a sense Gary. I truly would love to see younger people coming up. It has always been the same old dudes over the years, you know those old guys that are there tonight. It is time for the younger generation to get some help from these guys. help in getting into the ministry and have support instead of closed doors.

    I sadly know of a few people who became discouraged and just walked away, people who had a calling over their lives. But because they met with so much resistance they became discouraged and it broke their spirit.

    Come on guys, let the youth come forth, it is their time!!!

  35. 😉 brian

  36. david,
    I’m afraid that is the epitaph of the Jesus movement. But then it may be the epitaph of every revival.

  37. I thought Kay was going to speak.

  38. Gary,
    I believe Kay has Alzheimers or something to that effect and has caregivers. Out of respect no one talks about it.

    The tribute service was well done. Even though I live 35 minutes from Honda center, I watched it in HD on my laptop from my leather chair at home. Didn’t want to make the effort on my only day off to get there around 3:30. Some people just spent 5 and a half hours there and now still have to go through all the traffic to get home. Part of getting older is not having the unction to go to everything like we did when we were younger.

    Bedtime. God bless you guys~ turn off the lights when your done…

  39. Pretty fancy send-off. You’d think a head-of-state or billionaire like Steve Jobs or a King died. Well produced, nicely done.

  40. Ya, wow, the Old Guard…well, really looks old. Yikes.

    Skip needs a haircut. He looks like that old ex-female model who’s grown long in the tooth and his having plastic surgery and wearing clothes that don’t fit right…trying hard to look look young and still relevant. Quite amusing actually LOL.

  41. Not tonight, RB.

  42. Well, that was quite a tribute. Chuck was quite important to a lot of folks. Very very important.

    Bob Coy said something interesting, to the effect that Chuck was jumping off clouds right now or something. Chuck’s body is in the ground, correct? It isn’t resurrected yet, right? So, what body does he have right this moment that is jumping and frolicking or whatever?

    I thought we’re supposed to be resurrected in the flesh…like Jesus was…or it’s some sort of gnosticism or something.

    If Chuck doesn’t have his human body right now, what is he? A disembodied spirit?

  43. …he’ll probably haunt my arse this Halloween, LOL! The curse of Chuck will finally happen! 😆

  44. I think there is much to be said on Chuck Smith, much of it will come out in books, articles and maybe even a few movies. It is my personal belief that Chuck Smith and lonnie frisbee have now made peace with each other. It is my hope the message that is heard and celebrated with be that one. Reconciliation.

  45. RB,

    In answer to your #42, I would say we stop functioning at death, a non-existence and unconscious state, until we are raised idiot at the end of the age. Hence, death is not disembodied conscious existence. Death is the reverse of creation that was depicted in Genesis 2.7.

  46. “raised idiot” = raised again

  47. Correction to the correction (ugh!): “raised bodily”

  48. I like raised idiot better LOL.

  49. http://www.godvine.com/Hilarious-Reason-Cats-and-Dogs-fb-gv-4149.html

    I tried not to laugh but this was touching. It also shows how many of us act over disputes in the church and some of us learn to share.

  50. Some people are bitter towards the memory of Pastor Chuck Smith.

    Bitterroot judgment is poisonous to the body of Christ.

    Hebrews 12:15
    Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;

    The vile poison spreads and defiles others from those who are bitter. Tainting all around them by their mere presence.

    http://www.joebrockministries.com/john-and-paula-sandford-bitter-root-judgment-and-expectancy/

    Escape the enemy’s deadly trap! “The Bait of Satan” exposes one of the most deceptive snares Satan uses to get believers out of the will of God-

    offense.

    Most people who are ensnared by the bait of Satan don’t even realize it. Don’t be fooled! You will encounter offense, and it’s up to you how it will affect your relationship with God.

    Your response will determine your future. If offense is handled correctly, you will become stronger rather than bitter. The strongest trees always grow on the windward side of the mountain.

    In this book, John Bevere shows you how to stay free from offense and escape the victim mentality. This book includes testimonials of many transformed people.

    “Bait of Satan”
    http://shekinahfellowship.blogspot.com/2010/10/bait-of-satan_30.html

  51. The Satan card was played so much in my life I figured he had much more power than God. But being the stupid heretic I am I could not accept that, I always figured God was far more powerful than Satan. I had a long diatribe that would be offensive and being the coward I am I dont wish to go down that road. So I say I reject Satan and his works, I dont worship him and repudiate all his works. I dont plan with Satan to delude or deceive people. I dont want to lead people to hell, I am not a Jesuit shill seeking to lead people to Rome and then to hell, nor am I a member of the Illuminati, the Bilderbergers, the council on foreign relations, the UN, or the Jesuit hit squad sent to hit Jack Chick.

    This crap is cannon fodder is a staple for this ilk of this group of Christians, trust me there are people who actually buy into this absolute total nonsense. It is nonsense, they even put Pastor Smith on this train, thinking he was under some type of Jesuit / boogieman clap trap. But some of us lap it up. Pastor Smith played on some of this, and he should be commended, it is a good business move and that is Holy. Disagree try getting in the way of church revenue and see what it gets you. Booted, that is what it will get you, with a vengeance and in the name of Jesus. It should get you booted, I get that.

    I was moved by the service, what I watched of it. I had to turn it off because I was beginning to grieve, that can’t happen so I turned it off. I admire, even a bit jealous that they were able to share grief. Grief is unreasonable and messy outside of some type of apologetic, I get that. From what I saw it was good friends saying goodbye and leaning on some hope of a future restoration. I love that, what I dont get is why it is so disgusting and vile when us common folks hope for this. Let me specify I consider it unreasonable to ever express such feelings and it should raise to the level of church discipline if someone actually crosses that line. I get that. I was glad his family was able to express their grief, they should not need that but they were able to do that.

  52. If you missed it live but still want to see it, just click Michael’s link at the top and the recording will play.

  53. LOL! the bitter satan card. Love it.

    My wife watched some of the “memorial”…she’s a fundamentalist and actually liked Chuck, until she saw how he treated me. Her comment was, “Wow, that’s almost blasphemous. Talk about Idolatry.”

    The “everyone stood in heaven when Chuck arrived” thing…literally? Folks have legs and bodies in heaven this moment? The resurrection hasn’t happened…what bodies do they have? How are they standing in heaven greeting Chuck?

    …yet another glaring bible contradiction.

  54. I was disappointed that Chuck’s 3 other kids didn’t speak, or Kay. His daughter was funny, just like Chuck jr was last week. It was a memorable oCCasion. Greg gave an alter call. Many came forward. Who knew?

  55. Having been a part of CC since 1970, I enjoyed the tribute. Lots of memories. However, why Steve Mays was trotted out there and allowed to completely botch the introduction for the Military Chaplain, I just don’t get, not to mention his story about telling Chuck that his (Steve’s) daughter had run away that left everyone befuddled. Otherwise, a good evening.

  56. I watched it in bits and pieces between rescuing errant chickens and painting a new wall.. What I saw brought back many good memories.

    My husband says the archived version is much clearer. Will watch it again. I was amazed that my aging mind remembered the words to the Love Song songs. That era was, indeed, a remarkable time in history. I felt thankful to have “been there’ and kept by the Lord.
    My continued prayers are for Kay and the family and for another great revival.

  57. RB,

    I don’t think you’re using the term fundamentalist correctly. Think Bob Jones University.

  58. satanbate verb. to attribute to satan blame, responsibility, power, temptation, influence, or snide remarks for which a human being is actually at fault.

    BridgeStone Dictionary of Theological BS

  59. Ricky Bobby said, “I like raised idiot better LOL.”
    No doubt. Not sure why my iTouch auto-corrected “bodily” to “idiot” since they are not even close. However, I wanted to make sure the thought was correct and did not want any to think it was a disrespectful remark aimed at Mr. Smith.

  60. Ian, I think it was the Holy Spirit that typed that autocorrected it for you, the Lord works in mysterious ways LOL

    “raised idiot” is very appropriate. God has such a sense of humor 😆

  61. I guess I will never get accustomed to the language that surrounds this movement and others as pertains to the nation of Israel. It sounds so contrary to the Gospel and near idolatrous to me. I cannot make peace with it within the pages of scripture. I simply cannot do it. I cannot fathom the threats that are implied and explicit as pertains to political matters exclusive to that one geography and religion. I understand a world with a bad conscience about historical offenses against a people. But the people who preach against replacement theology often sound as if they have replaced the Gospel of Jesus with the Gospel of Israel. It really does sound that strange to me.

  62. Overall it was a very moving and honor filled day. It would have embarrassed Chuck Smith horribly but it was a good thing to remember this giant and to pay homage to Christ for his work in all of this. I did not watch every minute but am grateful to have perused through the substance and gist of it.

  63. “. It would have embarrassed Chuck Smith horribly ”

    Not buying that. I saw him enjoying the adulation in direct experiences with him…and I saw him bristle when the ring wasn’t kissed.

  64. RE: Ian Elsasser @ # 45:

    Agreed. I no longer believe in an immortal soul separate from the physical body. In my opinion it is a construct of Greek Hellenism that is foreign to the ancient Hebraic belief that body and soul are an integral whole and not separate units.

  65. Once again the bible presents two distinctly different narratives on a particular issue.

    It presents some sort of spirit-body immediately after you die, but before the Resurrection as exampled by Lazarus in Abraham’s Bosom and as exampled by Elijah and Moses on the Mount of Transfiguration etc.

    Time appears to be Linear in many bible passages regarding a human dying and then they are all the sudden with some sort of body in the afterlife.

    The fact is the Resurrection hasn’t occurred yet…OR, time isn’t Linear (which has major Philosophical implications that are quite interesting), so if we are to get a “glorified” body of flesh as Jesus did (and this is a CRITICAL part of the orthodox Christian faith…no bodily resurrection, no Jesus as Messiah in most Christian* belief systems) it hasn’t happened yet, not for Chuck (ergo he can’t be jumping off clouds and no one stood in heaven and cheered when he arrived, in fact he is not conscious at this moment unless it’s as a disembodied spirit in some sort of Purgatory).

    Then you have contradictory narratives that state “to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord” and the assumption that when folks croak, they are immediately in a Glorified flesh body and in heaven…but they aren’t as their flesh body is still in the ground here on earth…and the Tomb of Jesus wouldn’t have to be empty…Jesus could have simply gotten some sort of Spirit body.

    Big contradiction. Big loose assumptions illustrated by inane superficial comments like “Chuck’s jumping on clouds…” and “everyone stood up in heaven and cheered when Chuck walked in” etc. Total idiocy.

  66. The Truth is…we don’t know where the f Chuck is right now…other than in the ground.

  67. RB,
    Obviously you don’t understand the way people speak. I was yelling at my TV this morning as the weather man was telling me what time the sun was going to rise this morning. How does that guy keep his job?

  68. I was watching the WS last. Gomes hit a ball and the announcer proclaimed, “that ball is gone!” Then they showed some guy holding the ball in the stands. That announcer is an idiot.

  69. MLD, where is Chuck right this moment?

  70. RB, how would I know, and why would you expect me to know?

    I could probably ask you where your kids are right now, but if they are not with you, you would have to guess.

  71. Hey, don’t shoot the messenger, it’s the screwy bible that makes it so whacky and complicated.

    You have embodied spirits with “tongues” and eyeballs that see etc. when we see Lazarus in Abraham’s bosom etc. We have humans “transfigured” with features that resemble men (we’re told Moses and Elijah). We see Jesus resurrected in the flesh.

    Then, we see people “small and great” standing at Judgment….and a few who are raised and now are in their eternal bodies go into “heaven” and the rest, in their eternal bodies, get cast into the Lake of Fire (hell) etc…or so one narrative goes.

    We have Jesus conquering Hades and we have Abraham’s bosom closing up. OK, where’d those folks go? Did they lose their bodies they had their and then went back into some sort of non-consciousness? Did they become disembodied spirits and then chill in some waiting area…waiting for the Judgment?

    …they can’t have gotten their bodies and be in heaven…b/c the Judgment hasn’t happened yet. The bible expresses the Judgment as one Singular Event, one specific moment in time.

    So. those in Abraham’s bosom had a body then lost the body…and then get it back during Judgment?

    Is anyone in “heaven” this moment? It is commonly assumed and portrayed by evangelicalism that the Apostles are in heaven etc, right now…yet where are the Apostle’s bodies right now, this moment? In the ground, no?

  72. We do not know how humans would have left this world had there been no Fall; some doubt whether they ever would have done so. But as it is, the separation of body and soul through bodily death, which is both sin’s fruit and God’s judgment (Gen. 2:17; 3:19, 22; Rom. 5:12; 8:10; 1 Cor. 15:21), is one of life’s certainties. This separating of the soul (person) from the body is a sign and emblem of the spiritual separation from God that first brought about physical death (Gen. 2:17; 5:5) and that will be deepened after death for those who leave this world without Christ. Naturally, therefore, death appears as an enemy (1 Cor. 15:26) and a terror (Heb. 2:15).

    For Christians the terror of physical death is abolished, though the unpleasantness of dying remains. Jesus, their risen Savior, has himself passed through a more traumatic death than any Christian will ever have to face, and he now lives to support his servants as they move out of this world to the place he has prepared for them in the next world (John 14:2-3). Christians should view their own forthcoming death as an appointment in Jesus’ calendar, which he will faithfully keep. Paul could say, “For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain…. I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far” (Phil. 1:21, 23), since “away from the body” will mean “at home with the Lord” (2 Cor. 5:8).

    At death the souls of believers (i.e., the believers themselves, as ongoing persons) are made perfect in holiness and enter into the worshiping life of heaven (Heb. 12:22-24). In other words, they are glorified. Some, not believing this, posit a purgatorial discipline after death that is really a further stage of sanctification, progressively purifying the heart and refining the character in preparation for the vision of God. But this belief is neither scriptural nor rational, for if at Christ’s coming saints alive on earth will be perfected morally and spiritually in the moment of their bodily transformation (1 Cor. 15:51-54), it is only natural to suppose that the same is done for each believer in the moment of death, when the mortal body is left behind. Others posit unconsciousness (soul sleep) between death and resurrection, but Scripture speaks of conscious relationship, involvements, and enjoyments (Luke 16:22; 23:43; Phil. 1:23; 2 Cor. 5:8; Rev. 6:9-11; 14:13).

    Death is decisive for destiny. After death there is no possibility of salvation for the lost (Luke 16:26)—from then on both the godly and the ungodly reap what they sowed in this life (Gal. 6:7-8).

    Death is gain for believers (Phil. 1:21) because after death they are closer to Christ. But disembodiment, as such, is not gain; bodies are for expression and experience, and to be without a body is to be limited, indeed impoverished. This is why Paul wants to be “clothed” with his resurrection body (i.e., re-embodied) rather than be “unclothed” (i.e., disembodied, 2 Cor. 5:1-4). To be resurrected for the life of heaven is the true Christian hope. As life in the “intermediate” or “interim” state between death and resurrection is better than the life in this world that preceded it, so the life of resurrection will be better still. It will, in fact, be best. And this is what God has in store for all his children (2 Cor. 5:4-5; Phil. 3:20-21). Hallelujah!

  73. That was Packer. I’m not at home.

  74. Doesn’t matter who it was. Only those who are His can be blessed by a conversation about death. Hallelujah! indeed.

  75. I just didn’t want anyone to think I was taking credit for Dr. Packers work.

  76. Muff Potter said, “Agreed. I no longer believe in an immortal soul separate from the physical body. In my opinion it is a construct of Greek Hellenism that is foreign to the ancient Hebraic belief that body and soul are an integral whole and not separate units.”

    You are correct and many scholars have and are beginning to acknowledge these things though it hasn’t gain traction with everyone. Historical teaching can have a strong hold. We die and then await the resurrection which is the time when the righteous gain immortality and will be with the Lord (1 Th 4.17; 5.10; 2 Th 2.1; 2 Co 5.8; Php 1.23) because He will have returned from the right hand of the Father.

  77. I’m going to post the verses you quoted, Ian.

    Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
    This says nothing against “an immortal soul separate from the physical body.”

    What about this one: We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

    Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
    Again, this has nothing to do with Muff’s statement.

    Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
    Nothing related here either.

    For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
    This speaks against Muff’s statement.

    For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:
    This also speaks against Muff’s statement.

    To be absent from the body IS to be present with the Lord. Judgement comes later for the lost. Our sins were judged in Christ- on the cross.

    Death means separation. That’s why so many new testament verses use the word ‘sleep’ for a Christian’s death. They, and we, are not separated from Christ upon death.

  78. A little convoluted there Gary. Can you provide a more cogent argument aside from the usual literal proof texts from the Pauline epistles? From Ecclesiastes chap. 9 we have a view which stands in apparent tension with the Pauline texts So is Ecclesiastes now abrogated to accommodate Paul? Or is it re-spun to make it agree with Paul?

  79. Neither. I don’t buy into your anti biblical view. The dead know nothing about what is going on “under the Sun” Eccl 9:5 is NOT talking about Christians.

    Cogent = your take.

  80. Since the turn of the century (21st) I have been researching and doing my own study from Bullinger’s Companion Bible. It contains a wealth of info and scholarship in the margins and in the appendices not accessible anywhere else. From it I have arrived at my own views which may or may not agree with yours. A different view of the Biblical narrative is not the same thing as an anti Biblical view.

  81. Gary, in answer to your comment #77:

    1 Th 4.17 says we will be with the Lord once we are raised from the dead

    2 Co 5.8 is the continuation of the statement Paul began in verse 6 where being in the body (our present earthly body) means we are away from the Lord (because He is in heaven) but we desire to be out of our present body which will mean we will be with the Lord having received our resurrection body. Verse 1 sets the stage by speaking of our present bodies (earthly) over against the future body (the one made without hands in heaven) the Lord has waiting for us which Paul preferred to receive while still alive (putting on over top of the present, verses 2-4) or at resurrection.

    1 Th 5.10 affirms 4.17 that we shall be with Christ, whether we are awake (= alive) or death (= will be raised from dead).

    2 Th 2.1 speaks about Christ return t the end of the age when we shall be gathered to Him, the same event spoken in 1 Th 4.17 and 5.10. When He comes we shall be with Him bodily.

    1 Co 5.1 is comparing our present body which is earthly and temporal over against our immortal and eternal bodies which we shall have at Christ’s return, either by tranformation (“put on over top”) or resurrection. Paul speaks of these in 1 Co 15.43-54 and Php 3.10-11, 20-21.

    Php 1.23 speaks of Paul’s death (“departing” which is imagery of journey) and being with Christ. When will he be with Christ? At resurrection (Php 3.9-11). Death begins the journing, being with Christ at our resurrection/His return is the destination.

    “Sleep” is used for death because it resembles what we do when we rest at night and because it is unconsciousness. The difference is that physical sleep we are still alive whereas in the sleep of death we are not. Resurrection is the time we “wake” from death (Da 12.2; John 5.25-29).

    We are not immortal in any way; the Bible teaches that immortality is a gift from God which He gives through Christ to faith at resurrection.

  82. Gary, re: Eccl 9.5, you would be hard pressed to prove this excludes Christians. It describes what happens to the dead, whether believers or unbelievers.

    I recognize many or all will not agree with this position — conditional immortality — and I understand. But I think I may have already been unfair to the topic of this comment stream which is Mr. Smith’s death and don’t want to distract further. I apologize to those who may be offended for the distraction from the subject.

    Sorry, Michael.

  83. Sorry Michael, I didn’t mean to be dismissive. I meant that it didn’t matter to me, as I was again amazed that I could find myself rejoicing about a topic that so many find terrifying.

  84. Packer doesn’t answer the question.

    He seems to assert disembodied spirits or some sort of temporary spirit-body until resurrection…which is pretty dicey.

  85. Ian,
    “We are not immortal in any way; the Bible teaches that immortality is a gift from God which He gives through Christ to faith at resurrection.”

    Yes, we get that at the 1st resurrection as stated in John 5:24 – “Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.” This is the 1st resurrection= your conversion.

  86. NT Wright speaking last night talked about life and death.

    He gave an example of a person dying and withering away and how we use the term “he is just a shadow of his former self.”
    Wright said, that actually we are currently just a “shadow of our future self.”

    I thought that was great!

  87. I am deeply shocked how very mean,mean and mean !!! some of these people are-it is totally shocking to me! susie hester

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