Oct 282013
 

thinking_man_ape_wood_3d_sculpture_thinker_think-480x3251. I wrestled all night with whether or not I would speak to the Chuck Smith memorial service or if I would simply move on and spare myself the grief.When I arose this morning I chose to speak because of some comments here and in my Facebook mail. There are too many questions about why some are so angry and too many references to folks being bitter and influenced by Satan for me to be silent.

Here is what you must understand if you choose to be fair.

There was only one man who had the authority to make right the wrongs that were perpetrated by some pastors in the Calvary Chapel movement.

There was no real hierarchy…there was only Chuck.

His was the only vote that mattered, indeed, his was the only real vote.

In the vast majority of those cases he refused to act, in some cases he participated in the cover up of the incidents.

People who were genuinely wounded with real grievances were told to simply vote with their feet and get over it.

Those people were ignored and often shunned and despised for speaking at all.

For those people, the torrent of accolades for Smith reinforces the shame and pain of their forced silence…it reaffirms that they were nameless, faceless collateral damage in the building of the kingdoms of God and Smith.

In a faith that allegedly is based on the love of God and neighbor, that’s a tough pill to swallow.

Only a bitter fool would deny that untold numbers of souls have been touched through the ministry of Smith and Calvary Chapel.

It’s another kind of fool that refuses to acknowledge that the system also chewed up and spit out a lot of people in Jesus name.

My prayer is that those who embrace the Smith hagiography will prove it’s worth by reaching out to those who were disenfranchised by the group that made it’s ecclesiastical reputation by reaching out to those the church didn’t want…then, maybe they can celebrate too.

That’s all I think today.

  118 Responses to “Things I Think”

  1. “For those people, the torrent of accolades for Smith reinforce the shame and pain of their forced silence…it reaffirms that they were nameless, faceless collateral damage in the building of the kingdoms of God and Smith”. Exactly my thoughts. Thank you.

  2. Wow! Can I say ‘FIRST’ on a blog I always read but hardly ever comment on?!! Cuz I’m usually too scared to compete with all you deep thinkers 🙂

  3. Summer,
    Jump in whenever you want…we’re not as smart as we think we are… 🙂

  4. Well said. Now it’s in God’s hands

  5. This is a fair article, Michael. Good job.

  6. He once eulogized a fellow as a “modern day Samson,” perhaps he was a modern day Eli and perhaps Samuel will arise.

  7. Thank you, Xenia…your thoughts hold a lot of weight with me.
    But, you knew that already. 🙂

  8. Thank you, Steve.

  9. Michael, well said. May many be healed and reconciled during this time of uncertainty and transition.

  10. Michael,
    I’d like to be able to say that the first two-thirds of your post is incorrect, or at least too harsh, but that would be dishonest. Chuck Smith’s legacy is a too-sided coin. I grieve for those who have been wounded, and I rejoice for those whose lives were edified.

    “There was only one man who had the authority to make right the wrongs that were perpetrated by some pastors in the Calvary Chapel movement.”

    I see the truth in that as far as the movement as a whole. However, there is still time for the Greniers, Heitzigs and others to be instruments of healing. It’s not over ’til the fat lady sings, and I don’t think Chuck Smith was the fat lady.

  11. Ian, I have some hope for that.
    I’m also aware that now there is no one with a vote at all…

  12. CK,

    I think you know me well enough by now that I find no worth in simply lashing out.
    There is a balance here that needs to be reached and those that live have the ability to be change agents…agents of reconciliation.
    My prayer is that they make it so.

  13. Michael,
    Well said sir, well said.

  14. “Only a bitter fool would deny that untold numbers of souls have been touched through the ministry of Smith and Calvary Chapel.

    It’s another kind of fool that refuses to acknowledge that the system also chewed up and spit out a lot of people in Jesus name.”

    The first sentence I see as being totally accurate and obvious based on personal experiences of people who can attest to this with powerful testimonies.

    The second sentence took time for me to come to grips with as I was so isolated from anything remotely negative concerning CC and CS and I’m afraid there’s many that are in that position today for any number of reasons.

    Others know of these things but because of reasons known only to them they will not admit to there being real issues that need to be addressed and some wrongs that need to be made right.

    Time will tell as to how all of this unfolds.

    Michael, don’t always agree with you but I believe you have set a fine example based on where you were and where you are. You are aware of so much more than many of us might imagine both good and bad and have chosen a path of balance while maintaining your integrity.

    I have always said one person, one pastor, and one church for positive change and I hope we see that happen for the benefit of God’s people and the furtherance of His kingdom.

  15. Thank you, Papias…hope you are well, my friend.

  16. “I think you know me well enough by now that I find no worth in simply lashing out.”

    Agreed.

    “…agents of reconciliation.”

    I join you in that prayer.

  17. erunner,

    My goal for the last few years has been to do more than just point out the wrong…it’s been to also seek positive change through relationships and dialog.
    I can’t say that I have been successful in this…and I catch hell from both sides.
    I’m grateful for you and your perseverance on this journey with me….and like CK says, we haven’t heard any opera yet. 🙂

  18. Michael, There’s people who will always come against you and I wouldn’t judge your efforts based on those individuals. You own up to your mistakes.

    I’m headed to the hospital where our close friend is at death’s door. If anyone who reads this could say a prayer for Gunilla who was stricken to quickly and for her dear family it would be deeply appreciated. Thank you.

  19. erunner,

    Praying now.

  20. I think that God placed Chuck in the middle of something huge. Chuck and CC were clearly used by God. God is still doing great things at/through the CCs in my area.

    I also think that Chuck wasn’t up for the type of leadership he chose, as it’s a flawed model, made for no man. He made some serious mistakes.

    I don’t see how these views are mutually exclusive.

  21. “My prayer is that those who embrace the Smith hagiography will prove it’s worth by reaching out to those who were disenfranchised by the group that made it’s ecclesiastical reputation by reaching out to those the church didn’t want”

    Won’t happen…and can’t happen. It would require the acceptance on their part that indeed willful wrongdoing did occur…and the Cows are too Sacred and there’s too much money and power and reputation at stake.

    It’s not about God or the bible, not at all. I tested the real worth and truth of Calvary Chapel and Chuck Smith. It’s not real. It’s as fugazzi as a $50 Rolex when you scratch beneath the veneer.

  22. The only remaining thing to do is warn people, poke holes in the CC Mythology and keep hammering and save as many as possible from the scam.

  23. Jim,

    They aren’t mutually exclusive…but we live in an age of polarity.

  24. I’ve noticed… 🙂

  25. “Chuck really trusted the Holy Spirit to clean us up.” Tom Stipe

    Thanks Tom I like that.

  26. BD,

    I thought Tom was excellent…

  27. Joining the choir in stating this is a good and fair and needed article.

  28. Thank you, KevinH.

  29. I’m never sure what song the choir is going to sing… 🙂

  30. But today’s title is misleading. How can you keep Things (plural) in the title, when the list is then composed of only one item? 🙂

    See, some criticism. That should hold back all the allegations that Michael only allows people who agree with him to comment. 🙂

  31. Michael,
    I don’t disagree with anything you said. I was one who was disenfranchised, not by Chuck but by immature untested and self absorbed people in his system. Unlike most, mine was a swift kick down the driveway with a “Go to the devil and don’t ever come back.” But yesterday was his day. I didn’t want to hear any naysayers.

  32. “My prayer is that those who embrace the Smith hagiography will prove its worth by reaching out to those who were disenfranchised by the group that made its ecclesiastical reputation by reaching out to those the church didn’t want…” This is an astute observation. I would add it may be proof that conformity to the system is inevitable over time.

  33. Reuben,
    Have you ever considered that in some ways you might actually have gone to far on this whole thing yourself?
    I have zero affiliation with CC and your diatribes against idolatrous things you see in CC people just plain disturbing in and of themselves.
    Sometimes we see idolatry in people that aren’t guilty of it, because we were once guilty of it ourselves. Sort of like how ex-smokers become the worst of anti-smoking zealots.
    There may be some truth to what you speak, but I really think you need to get some wood out of your own eye to get some perspective.

  34. your diatribes against idolatrous things you see in CC people “are” plain disturbing in and of themselves.

  35. Reuben,
    Bow down to the dove. Worship the dove. It is the will of Landru. You will be absorbed. 😉

    Seriously, need some tweezers?

  36. “Acquire a peaceful spirit and then thousands of others around you will be saved.”

    -St. Seraphim of Sarov

  37. erunner,
    I am doing my best to address my CC issues. I’m trying to do it reasonably and with some patience, hoping I have proper perspective and motivation. I’m such a screw-up who knows what planet my perspective is on?

  38. Reconciliation. That is my goal. I’ve reconciled with one person and I’m working on the other. The first was easy. I apologized to the person in front of those involved and I qualified my apology. I walked away and that was that. The second is another can o’ woims.

  39. Xenia,
    Are you Eastern Orthodox, Greek Orthodox or Russian Orthodox? (I don’t know of any others.)

  40. Reconciliation is the goal, that’s for certain. We can start with those in our lives that we ourselves have treated poorly.

  41. Gary, it’s all Eastern Orthodoxy. We don’t have a central government (no Pope) but each Orthodox country (ideally) has its own Patriarch. So there’s the Russian Orthodox Church, the Greek Orthodox Church, the Serbian Orthodox Church, etc. all in communion with each other. Sometimes Eastern Orthodoxy is called Greek Orthodoxy because the Greeks were the originals but “Greek” really should be reserved for… well, Greeks. My husband and I are members of a Russian parish because that’s the Orthodox Church closest to our house.

  42. That’s fascinating. I had no idea.

  43. All Orthodox Churches have the same theology and use the same liturgy, that of St. John Chrysostom. The differences would be the language, food served at pot lucks, etc. We’ve visited Serbian, Greek, Arabic and Russian parishes and they were all the same except for language and a few cosmetic differences.

  44. Michael @ 17, You followed where you believed God was leading when you changed tone. But this being the internet and extremes from every side commenting you’ll never win in such polarizing times. I suspect things will continue and maybe not improve in the cyberspace world.

    Today was a difficult day on a personal level yet it helps put things in perspective for me. It seems the older I get the more I need to learn.

  45. Gary @ 38, I had a falling out with a CC I never saw coming. As I think about it my situation pales compared to what scores of others have experienced. The fact that you’re trying to go about things in a thoughtful way says a lot so I will hold off consigning you and your perspective to another planet!

  46. Out of respect for Michael and the blog, up until now I’ve stayed quiet here, publicly, concerning this thread and the memorial thread.

    Michael wrote “My prayer is that those who embrace the Smith hagiography will prove it’s worth by reaching out to those who were disenfranchised by the group that made it’s ecclesiastical reputation by reaching out to those the church didn’t want”

    Michael knows better than anyone that many of us who love Chuck Smith have sought to reach out to those he speaks of. Have sought to make a difference. At the same time, some of us have also sought to correct the record on occasion when inaccurate claims are made about being a CC pastor of church, affiliation and so forth in the general sense. Even daring to offer such thoughts is enough to warrant (in some people’s eyes) condemnation and insults.

    CC folks are still humans too. We still get feelings hurt, we still may respond poorly when wounded. We certainly know we are sinners in need of the Savior Who Alone is Perfect and never makes a mistake.

    Michael your prayer I cite is a fine prayer. It is incomplete though. You might include a request for those of us within CC who fulfill your prayer’s desire…that we might be received in a gracious manner as well.

    Once more we just read on your blog of a good man like Dave reaching out to Gary when asked for help, and yet there is the attack on your blog that quickly follows.

    I read prominently of (and I quote) “the idolatrous slime that deface all of Christendom with a demonic vengence….Chuck is diety now.”

    And later read a pity-party of all those mean CC folks who dare take an offense at such things.

    Reconciliation is two parties coming together and embracing at least some common ground. It’s not brute submission, right? I mean, isn’t that the common criticism against CC? Agree 100% or be dismissed.

    Peace

  47. Surely Reuben is speaking with “tongue in cheek” – I know, don’t call you Shirley. 😉

  48. Steve,
    I don’t recall attacking Dave. Did someone attack Dave?

  49. Evidently Tom Stipe piqued enough curiosity from the memorial to land a bunch of people on my blog via search engines. I suspect he represented quite well.:)

  50. Steve, it is deleted. As you were.

  51. My goodness you silly, pathetic CC haters. Wahhh, get your pacifier and blankey. You swallowed a bitterness pill and hope CC (and any CC people) dies–instead you are killing yourselves. Haters gonna hate. From self-proclaimed “wronged” people to a “pastor” (using the term loosely) who wishes he were a pastor of a big CC church. It’ll never happen buddy.

  52. “CC folks are still humans too. ”

    I wish I could join that club.

  53. Being human

    I think I will go back to my silver chair. Long long story.

  54. Hey Gary, to answer your question, no, you certainly did not disparage Dave or the possible assistance he might provide you. Dave is a good man, and I hope he can be of help to you.

    Michael can vouch for him as well (and usually does)

  55. K. Griffiths, that was really helpful…NOT!

  56. Have no fear brian. Puddleglum is on the way.

    I believe you, Steve. I don’t need a voucher or an affiDavid.

  57. A Marshwiggle sighting…. GASP!! 🙂

  58. It was funny though, and I have a whole bunch more just like Griffiths.
    There is a mindset among some that the peak of the pastoral profession is to to lead a “big” CC.
    Neither my personality nor my personal views on discipleship would allow me to ever pastor a “big” church of any denomination.
    My theological differences with CC are great and growing greater by the day.
    Unlike some, I wouldn’t compromise them to wear a brand.
    Finally, as odd as it may seem, I’m very happy with my pastoral life and wouldn’t change where I’m at for the world.

  59. Links will be a bit late today…I’ve got to get Trey ready for school and I’m more than slightly burned out from the last few days here.

  60. erunner,
    “Jelly Baby?”

  61. A Marshwiggle sighting

    E, its that something native to BuenO Park?

  62. A Marshwiggle can help release you from the Silver Chair if you ask properly.

  63. K. Griffiths…gloaters gonna gloat. At least he/she/it spelled and punctuated correctly, unlike most of the pp bashers who glide through and grace us with their insight.

  64. “I’m very happy with my pastoral life and wouldn’t change where I’m at for the world.”

    This ^^^^^^^!!!

  65. Michael, take your time. You don’t owe us a links thread. In fact, I think it would be great if, after getting back from taking Trey to school, you just grab a good book and chill for a while. That’s my 2 cents, fwiw.

  66. Gary, “Jelly Belly.” I wish I could keep up with you!

    GW, Love it when you make a rare appearance as I’m sure it’s quite difficult breaking away from those Big Guy Meetings!

  67. E

    Its always good to visit. I need to get back to DC, the “Big Guys” with Obamacare are needing someone to fix the glitch in their solfware. Seems that the software was manufactured in BuenO Park.

  68. It’s your fault GW… haven’t you learned yet that EVERYTHING is your fault!! Say hi to Neil Diamond for me…. 🙂

  69. CK,

    Thank you, my friend.

  70. Just caught up on this thread. I’m so sorry I missed someone attacking Dave. That is actually one of my favorite activities! And whatever I was attacked for, whether right or wrong, trust me- I’ve done worse.

  71. Dave,
    It was the usual suspect on another thread. (Snarky comment deleted.)

  72. Michael: I think you make some very interesting points. Specifically, regarding reaching out to those who are disenfranchised. Maybe the bigger lesson here is that if people are hurting or feel grieved by any of us not just CC that life is not too short, rather too important, not to mend fences with people. It shouldn’t take death to remind of us of what we should do on a daily basis.

    There are so many different opinions and feelings many have toward CC and Pastor Chuck. I felt very reflective watching the service. Growing up in CC, I don’t think I’ve seen many of those pastors in years, let alone in the same venue.

    Who knows what Pastor Chuck thought about in his last days. Who knows what regrets he had. I’m sure he had many as most of us would.

    I was mostly struck with this while watching the service, that one day your life is going to flash before your eyes, make sure it’s worth watching.

    Through all that I’ve seen in CC behind the scenes as a child and as a present day observer, I would say Pastor Chuck’s life was worth watching. I’ve learned a lot of lessons along the way.

  73. Paul,

    Thanks for stopping by.
    Your comments are both gracious and profound…most of us won’t have such a service in our honor, but we will all leave a legacy behind.

  74. “Who knows what Pastor Chuck thought about in his last days?”

    Here’s a little insight into what Chuck was thinking as his end grew near.

    http://vimeo.com/76099297

  75. A Believer:

    I think that was very moving. Solidified my point earlier that I’m certain as your time in life draws to an end that you probably reflect on all aspects of it. To me, I see a lot of raw emotion and humility from him.

  76. Paul, I’ve read your comments here and elsewhere and you have always been gracious and fair. Thanks for that.

  77. True Paul, …and how telling is Chuck’s comment about his righteousness being “zip”.

    He knew that based on his own merits he would never be accepted. Chuck humbly knew that his owns sins needed to be covered by trust in the faithfulness and perfection of Jesus.

  78. *zip here too*

  79. Michael and erunner: Thank you. I don’t comment often but enjoy reading and keeping up on what is going on. A lot of interesting and thought provoking dialogue.

    A Believer: I spoke with Pastor Chuck on the phone a couple of times in the last year regarding some difficulties I was experiencing. I am 32 now and probably hand’t spoken with him since I was in my early 20’s so it had to be about 12 or so years since I had last seen him. But he remembered me and took my calls and his time to listen and talk with me. He was gracious, kind and most of all comforting.

    When I was a child and then a teenager, Pastor Chuck always reminded me that when I was a young baby on a trip to Israel that he and Kay were on as well, that I never cried, was well behaved and was a great first time traveler. It’s too bad that trait didn’t carry over into my teenage years and 20’s! He still reminded me of that 32 years later on the phone. It’s interesting what people remember about you (and granted, I did not know him well by any means).

    In my last interactions with him, I believe he was sincere and more importantly made an effort to comfort me when I was clearly distressed about a situation. That spoke volumes to me and is more kindness than I’ve been shown by many in my life.

  80. Thanks for sharing your #80 Paul.

    A Believer, What a beautiful video. Thank you for sharing it.

  81. Paul, I worked as an employee of Chuck’s for 33 years. In all of the interactions my family and I had with him, he was always very kind.

    Thank you so much for your gracious words and for sharing your personal thoughts with us.

  82. Paul Grenier – thank you for your gracious comments, and for insights none of us would have known here had you not chosen to share them.

    A Believer – Thank you for the video.

    Gary – Amen. Zip here too.

  83. That video clip pretty much sums up the thoughts I’ve had anticipating death. Thoroughly convinced that I deserve the judgment of hell. And yet clinging to the hope and consolation of the promise of an advocate standing in my place.

  84. A Believer, the video definitely reflects the private man Chuck I knew. I met with him many times, monthly, in the last 8-9 years in his office over business things and found him to be humble, gracious and that he identified himself as much a sinner and frayed human being as I do myself. He didn’t consider himself an iconic figure at all in my experience..matter of fact found it distasteful that people exalted him. This was my experience, not everyone’s. I also saw him as a very wise and savvy business man, very loving father and grandfather, occasionally angered, and often very humorous….very much just like the rest of us. The video clearly reminds me of the one thing that matters ultimately when our time is done here…it’s not our hurts, our disappointments, our failures , our victories or the pain inflicted on us along the way…It’s our advocate..Jesus. Thanks for the post.

  85. This is good therapy for me to watch that video and read these things. Thanks to all.

  86. For Gods sake Michael get over it already. How many times do we have to rehash the same whining crap? You’ve wasted more time Chuck bashing. And set off another round of fruitless debate. You r not going to change anyone’s opinion on this. Chuck Smith was used mightily by God and those who recognize that r not interested in the ” other side of the story”

  87. If there’s another side of the story I want to know. I love and appreciate Chuck but I’m not an ostrich.

  88. Yes Michael, you should ignore all those who have been hurt Chuck. Pretend that they don’t exist. After all, those who have been blessed by Chuck far outnumber those who have been hurt so they should be the only ones that matter. And who cares if those who have been hurt may be experiencing a flare up of those feelings right now in the midst of Chuck’s passing as they see all the glowing praise heaped upon him while knowing their experiences were counter to that. Why acknowledge their feelings? We certainly don’t want to take the chance of any opportunities developing to minister to them. At least not until they can get past their bitterness.

  89. hurt *by* Chuck.

  90. Mark,

    Within the next couple of years, someone will write a real biography of Smith.
    It will shake you to your foundations.
    It won’t change the fact that God used the man greatly, but it will greatly change the picture of the man God used.
    I’ve dealt with the repercussions for the last ten years because guys like you refused to.
    I’m not going anywhere.

  91. Well Michael,

    Write it. Having this blog is not a disqualification. No one has looked at him more intently and no one has had their thoughts and views of the man more challenged. Write it.

  92. BD,

    I’m too old and too sick and my first responsibility is to my son.
    The hell that someone will go through would kill me.

  93. I saw on another thread that Carlos Pimentel is back in Grants Pass and leading a new church. Here is a link to the website. http://thebridgegp.com/

  94. jamesk,

    I will be doing a write up on Pimental and I need those with facts about his last disaster to email me with those facts so I can do this thoroughly.

    phoenixpreacher@gmail.com

  95. Michael,
    I was not in GP then, but I did travel in CC circles, so I know what happened, but that is about it. His timing seems suspect. CCGP is loosing people and when I saw when the “teachings” online started all kinds of red flags went up. The ad in the community happenings paper listed him as “Teacher”, not pastor.

  96. jamesk,

    If you know anyone with info send them my way.
    This guy is a cancer…

  97. Michael, I’ll call you later this afternoon, but I’ve got calls in to a couple of folks who have first-hand experience with CP of GP. As best I can determine, this church plant is completely independent of CC and all other local ACF plants as well. His video makes no reference to the messes he created, and I’ll resist labeling it beyond that observation.

  98. Chuck didn’t hurt anybody. He was everything the Chuck worshipers believed. He is seated at the right hand of God now.

    I say that, because if I don’t, Steve will get pissed, break his self righteous silence, and defend his man. Fact.

  99. No, Steve, I wont delete that one.

  100. I know that we aren’t suppose to tell people here to “get over it” – but Reuben, get over it.

    Next week is a 3 day weekend, drive down here to SoCal and go dance on Chuck’s grave.

  101. Wow, just noted that the post that my #33 was responding to is now MIA. Sort of makes it look like I just said something out of nowhere.

  102. Reuben, Saw the above, and whatever it is you were trying to yell at me on facebook about earlier in the evening when I commented on someone’s post. I hope you don’t become a facebook stalker too.

    I’ve watched the descent on facebook and this blog for the last several years. Man, I remember a couple years ago even saying I would be proud to have you serve at our church. You presented totally different then.

    Looks to me like you are far more bitter and nasty today than you ever were when your CC wounds were fresher.

    And that’s a real shame…but not at all unexpected.

    Roots eventually bear fruit

    I hope you don’t go down the next path and start doubting and then denying the foundations of the faith.

    At least Alex’s anger at me was because he thought I didn’t help him in his cause.

    Yours is because I say nice things about my former pastor who just died. Let that sink in.

    Will pray for you as you have asked before in the prayer thread.

  103. Michael all you do here is foment the bitterness and anger that people should be giving over to The Lord. You know I’ve been consistent in my view that nothing good comes from dwelling on past hurts. The bible is clear that we are to press forward. Living in the past and constantly reliving past events is a sign of spiritual immaturity. You gave Alex an outlet to do just that over and over ad nauseum. Now u e doing it again with your morbid focus on chuck smiths failings in the midst of people memorializing his gifts

  104. Mark,
    You sound bitter – shouldn’t you just be giving that ‘over to the Lord’ (whatever that means.)

  105. Mark,

    I think I’ve consistently told you that I think your way is as unhealthy as you think mine is.
    The bottom line for you and others is that you can’t handle any criticism of Smith or the movement because in reality you think both are above rebuke.
    I’ll talk with Reuben about all of this at some point…not to chastise him for obvious pain, but to find better ways of expressing it so that he overcomes it for his benefit.
    Our critics have never given a damn about the pain…they just are angry that the icons are being sullied.
    It’s been that way since I started and is the proof that I need to continue.

  106. I’m finally getting mad now.
    This “give it over to the Lord” bullspit is nothing more than a refusal to deal with the reality of moral and ethical failure on the part of leaders and a built in mechanism for those leaders to avoid accountability for the collateral damage incurred from those failures.
    It’s a big, freaking lie and a control mechanism to keep the sheep in line.
    Keep pushing it guys…as one of my friends wrote, we’ve exercised great restraint to this point.

  107. The bottom line for you and others is that you can’t handle any criticism of Smith or the movement because in reality you think both are above rebuke.
    ————————————————–
    Well, I simply suggest you keep your critics separate – and their criticisms.

    My #46 left unremarked (and that is fine) but you sure jumped on Griffiths and Mark.

    The Bible is NOT silent on how we handle the challenges and hurts in life. And it ain’t by getting drunk and lashing out at other brethren.

  108. Our critics have never given a damn about the pain…they just are angry that the icons are being sullied.
    —————————————————–
    That sort of slander, after over five years, is worthy of getting mad over too.

    But I won’t…just tell you that you are wrong with that broadbrush.

    I’m out all day. Later

  109. Michael,
    They don’t see it cuz they can’t see it. In some cases it’s cuz they’re blind. In some cases it’s cuz they are set in their ways and refuse. Some choose to be blind but I suspect it’s cuz they don’t have eyes.

    Maybe you and others can give them eyes by getting out the facts. It will take time for the grieving to subside and the nagging questions to begin to come to the surface.

    I can rag on my brother but you’d better not. Any negatives about Chuck must be from an insider and must be verifiable. “Facts are stubborn things”. The first time I heard a negative comment about Chuck I dismissed it out of hand. It wasn’t until I heard a number of first-hand stories that I wondered if Chuck wasn’t perfect. Even when I was dissed by some in his camp I never attributed it to him. Even now I’m slow to do that. Facts. Lots of facts. and some time for perspective.

  110. Those who want to stick their head in the sand rather than acknowledge wrongdoings that have occurred only end up causing more harm. Especially when the avoidance is done by those in positions of leadership. And the same goes for those who may vaguely acknowledge the wrongdoing but will then place the main onus on those who have been hurt to “get over it”.

    Those who have been hurt may have a tendency to lash out at others when trying to deal with or discuss the hurt or issue. Even at those who may be trying to help them. Some of the anger may be righteous, but other parts sometimes are not. While the anger may be understandable, those who lash out unfairly and unrighteously still need to be accountable for their own behavior. It should not be excused.

    For those who have been hurt, it is best, especially for their own well-being, if they can come to some healthy terms in dealing with the hurt so that they can move on in life without continuing to carry such a troublesome burden and are then less likely to hurt others. Easier said than done. I would be stretched to describe what these “healthy terms” are, as I am certainly not a subject matter expert.

    I do believe that God wants us to be able to move on from hurts in a healthy manner. Much of that would be casting our burdens on Him and finding rest and strength in Him. This is the prescription to the individual who is hurting. At the same time, I do not believe the Lord instructs those who interact with the hurting to tell them to just get over it and to at best minimize their hurt, or at worst to refuse to acknowledge the conditions that have caused them hurt. We need to take responsibilities for our own actions. Whether that is in dealing with our own hurts, or if that is in how we deal with others who are hurting.

  111. Well said, Kevin!

  112. I imagine myself to be a good communicator but I’m not really. I’m thinking of the 95% to99% of CCers that never see or hear of any negative thing about their pastors. Those are the ones who don’t or won’t or can’t believe those who have really been hurt by them. Those who have sat under the same pastor for 30, 40, 50 years cannot possibly know anything other than what they themselves have personally experienced.

  113. MIchael,
    Sorry, the original comment disappeared, but I will say this.

    I have little sympathy for someone that comes on here and fusses about how Chuck Smith Jr., defriended him on FB after his rants on FB about the man’s father right after he died.

    Sorta convenient that that comment disappeared, it doesn’t show the one who wrote it in a very good light.

  114. Derek,

    I wrote that comment in response to 30+ posts in one day that I saw of people attributing their salvation to Chuck. Blatantly placing their very lives on the man. I boldly said to drop the idolatry. I said Jesus died for Chuck too. You must have read the responses…

  115. Hey Reuben,
    Check this out-
    I Paul have written it with mine own hand, I will repay it: albeit I do not say to thee how thou owest unto me even thine own self besides.

  116. Reuben,
    Do you understand what I’m getting at? Paul was telling one of his converts that he owed him a great debt. I’m sure Philemon loved and appreciated Paul. Paul was Philemon’s spiritual father. Can you fault any Christians from loving and appreciating Chuck for the same thing?

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