Oct 302014
 

crusadesThe history of American celebrity evangelicalism is a history laced with sensational frauds who knew how to pluck the emotional strings and wallets of the gullible faithful.

In the mid twentieth century it was a coterie of faith healers who roamed the country with their tents and an assortment of leg braces and wheelchairs allegedly left behind by those healed.

The seventies and eighties were the decades of the demon busters like the fraudulent “former Satanist” Mike Warnke.

While there is still money to be made plowing those old fields, the fake de jour of our time is the “former terrorist”.

Ergun Caner had this gig down to an art form until he was exposed for the liar he is.

This brings us to one Walid Shoebat.

Shoebat, like Caner claims to be a former Muslim radical who converted to Christ.

Also like Caner, there are grave doubts about the stories he tells to prove it.

Both have found itching ears and easy honorariums inside Calvary Chapel and other independent sects because of their support of Israel and dispensational eschatology.

This would not be worth writing about except for the fact that Shoebat is calling for a new Crusade to wipe out Islam and spread Christianity at the point of a sword.

“True love is never settled by compromise, but through bloodshed. Christ said,  “Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one’s life for his friends.” (John 15:13) And the Christian militias who have risen up to fight the torrent of the Islamic sword that seeks to destroy their friends, their brethren, these are the ones who exemplify this eternal passage in the purest fashion.

These Christians are part of The New Militia, or the militia that foreshadows The New Crusade that is to come, in which Christendom will revive and destroy the enemies of God and the haters of the Cross, and establish the holy light over the wretched shadow of Satan’s darkness.”

Shoebat conflates two separate issues…the right of self defense and the spread of the Gospel.

We would affirm the right to self defense, though that is itself a doctrine that has been debated through the  centuries.

We would not affirm the spread of something called “Christendom” through violent conflict.

That is what Shoebat is promoting using some of the most twisted exegesis of the biblical texts ever seen.

Awaken, holy Christendom!

Blossom with your beautiful pedals in the spring of the holy fray!

Take your inheritance, O holy Christendom,

From the pagans who stole it away!

Conquer with Cross and Sword!

Fight for Heaven and Your Lord!

Drive out the Muslim!

Drive out the Sodomite!

Drive the devils away with all your might!

With zeal we fight for God

And all the saints of holy martyrdom

For the blood of glorious martyrs

Awaken, O Christendom

My concern is that he’s recruiting young people into this bloody mindset…and doing so in many otherwise orthodox churches.

When will we learn?

  174 Responses to “A New Crusade?”

  1. perhaps dear Wallet Shoebox should lead by example and be a martyr for ‘the cause.’

  2. Sigh. Such sheep we are….. Thank God for HIS faithfulness and incredible patience in guiding His own (eventually), even if it’s through a parted sea, fiery furnace, den of lions, storm at sea, etc…. “The Lord is good. A stronghold in times of trouble. He knows those that are His”…Nahum 1:7… (my continual meditation)….. I truly think that dire times, persecution and tribulation will sift out this sort of vomit.

  3. fil,

    My sentiments exactly…

  4. This might be Driscoll’s new calling: drill sergeant for the New Crusade’s boot camp. He can verbally abuse the new recruits and teach them how to have “stones”.

  5. Paige,

    Amen and amen…

  6. paige,
    some sheep bray better than others. 😉 This jackass is one of ’em.

  7. EricL,

    Only if he can lead from his mansion in Seattle…

  8. The Islamic world is showing itself to be 5-700 years behind Christianity in moral development as a faith. They are the ones on a crusade… They are the ones believing that coercion can create faith, they are the once acting as if violence can produce righteousness. It is them and our right wing military who are engaged in crusade.

  9. “It’s the theology stupid!”
    May I ask, what is it in the evangelical training that places emphasis on someone who was an ex Muslim? Why does he catch the evangelical ear? What are the evangelicals missing from their Bibles that they must get from some sand dweller?

    I remember when I first became a Christian and people found out I had been Jewish, they almost wet themselves – “oh, you are a completed Jew!” I would reply, go crawl back in your hole – I am a Christian.

    Why are the ex Muslims the ex Muslims but a Jew doesn’t become an ex Jew?

  10. mld,
    I would suggest, in response to your rhetorical inquiry, one word. “Affirmation.”

  11. “Drive out the Sodomite!”

    What is this? Is the crusade also going to be waged in America?

  12. ‘ … fraudulent “former Satanist” Mike Warnke.’

    This is exactly why I view this site with a strange mixture of contempt and admiration.

    Mike Warnke has led a checkered life. But, it seems to me, he has come about as close as anyone I know to taking an appropriate posture toward his errors.

    The last time I heard him preach was a year or so ago, and it was a good word. Without the exaggerations and misrepresentations for which he has appropriately been held accountable.

    For you to publicly, in writing, on the Internet, for all the world to see, call him a fraud makes a mockery of the gospel.

    It makes a mockery of the gospel because the gospel is all about flawed people, sometimes full of error and pain, deciding to get up and go to battle one more day.

    That is what Mike is doing, and that is what you are doing, and that is what I am doing, and may God bless us all.

  13. so that would make Warnke an “Ex-former Satanist” 😉

  14. It is interesting that if Nazi fascism or Communist totalitarianism threatened the freedoms of largely Christian nations, there would not be the slightest hesitation to take up arms and fight for one’s homeland – but under the 2 kingdom perspective – not with the idea that this was a crusade to advance the gospel.

    America (and the rest of the free world) is at war with Islam, and we are going to see more and more so-called “isolated” incidents of murderous attacks on our citizens, and I would not hesitate as a Christian, if armed at the time, to take out any such Islamic militant seeking to kill someone else. And I heartily applaud anyone else who does so. However, their Christian faith or lack thereof is meaningless to the equation…

    As far as the theology cracks….conquering the world for Christ and His gospel by the sword was already tried and not by the premillers….

    Thanks for sharing this, Michael. It is good info to know about Walid

  15. The funny part of ISIS is that their target is not mainly Christian, but other Muslims. This is not a religious war in that it is one religion against another – so no ‘Crusade’ is warranted.

    These are crazy people who need to be exterminated… by other Muslims.

  16. Steve, the theology cracks were more about who listen’s to this guy. Where he is invited to speak etc.

  17. “It is interesting that if Nazi fascism or Communist totalitarianism threatened the freedoms of largely Christian nations, there would not be the slightest hesitation to take up arms and fight for one’s homeland – but under the 2 kingdom perspective – not with the idea that this was a crusade to advance the gospel.”

    Steve, from where to you draw this conclusion? America hesitated a long time leading up to WWII. It was in response to Germany’s declaration of war against the US and after its invasion of France, Belgium, Poland and ongoing war with Britain that America became directly involved in war against Germany.

    And America never lifted a military finger when the USSR gobbled up Eastern Europe after WWII.

    And when we have gone to war, I highly doubt that our political leaders contemplated a 2 kingdoms rationale.

  18. Jean, did I mention America in the paragraph you cited from me?

  19. MLD…here is a fun quote. (And remember I am not defending the guy)

    “But who is more worthy of attention; the Christians on their way to be martyred or the hemorrhoidal complaint I get from squabbling Americans who love to bicker, morn and complain if anyone offends their idol teacher, bestselling author or the Hawaiian cheap shirt dressed pastor selling cheap faith; all the while the un-bickering Christians are being slaughtered in the East?”

  20. Steve, if I didn’t interpret you correctly, then what was your point?

  21. WHAT WAS THE POINT?? Surely the Body of Christ, not to mention history in general involves more than just America. And surely Christians in other countries can love their homelands just as truly as any American does.

    Jean, I have found discussion with you on anything even remotely political to be futile because you read what you want into my posts, based on some prior narrative, then I have to spend post after post refuting YOUR interpretation of my words, no matter how directly I may write. Not to mention apparently needing justification to comment on this public blog in the first place. I find a lot of posts that have “no point” but it sure ain’t my job to be blog policeman

    I’ll pass today.

  22. MLD, isn’t there a difference between being a Jew and Judaism?

    Isn’t one genealogical and the other a religion?

    Can a person become an ex Jew?

  23. Can a person become an ex Jew? Yes, I did

  24. Steve, When you invoke Christianity in the context of going to war, and and couple that with statements like no hesitation, then try to crown your piety off invoking a Christian doctrine, don’t be surprised if someone challenges you. The more America has involved itself in military conflict in the Middle East, the worse things have gotten there for people and the more Islamic extremism has grown.

    You said America and the rest the free world is at war with Islam. That kind of thinking will lead to national suicide. Who’s going to war with us? Who’s paying the bill? Who’s children will do the dying? What countries that don’t like us will get stronger while we exhaust ourselves? Dude, put down the pipe.

  25. “As far as the theology cracks….conquering the world for Christ and His gospel by the sword was already tried and not by the premillers….”

    Yep, I think that was more the amillners….although the postmilles….can come along side that quite easily.

  26. Q – regardless of who did what in the past, the question is why are the Caner’s and the Shoebats today welcomed and promoted exclusively by the pre mil crowd.?

  27. MLD, that’s called Avoiding the Issue.

  28. MLD, I’m not sure that is true, but for arguments sake, lets say it is.

    I guess because most of the pre mill crowd see a future for the State of Israel, and the others don’t, making them the easier target.

    Also people like cc are not as relevant since the Calvinist surge and the show must go on.

  29. This comment I made “MLD, that’s called Avoiding the Issue.” is to your #23.

  30. Q,
    What does Walid calling for a brutal crusade have to do with the future state of Israel? Are you not just as concerned for the slaughter of the Muslims over there. What about the 1,000s of Muslim women taken as sex slaves?

    It is a warped outlook that is only concerned over this issue because some Christians are killed and it may have an effect on Israel.

    What about these are just bad people that need to be sprayed with nerve gas?

  31. Q – how did I avoid the issue – I can guarantee you I became an ex Jew. What are you going to stand up and say “no you didn’t!”

  32. CAPS ARE RUDE. NITWIT.

  33. ISIS militants deserve death for their atrocious crimes against humanity. I must agree with MLD’s #30. It’s not just the Christians that they have murdered. They go after anyone who is “different”, including non-Arabs and non-Sunni Muslims, including mass raping.

    http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/isis-sex-slaves-yazidi-woman-begs-west-bomb-brothel-where-she-raped-over-30-times-day-1471337

    The above story will make you weep.

  34. MLD, So we Avoidance in one set of comments.

    If you can tell me if there is a difference between being a Jew genealogically and having the religion Judaism, just say so. You can call yourself anything you want.

    And a Straw man in the other.

    You asked why two guy’s, one in my opinion is a proven liar (and was still asked to speak at CCCM) and the other I don’t know much about, and I do not know if they are both calling for the same thing, but you have tied them together so maybe thy are, anyway I digress, are promoted exclusively among pre mil (which I stated “I’m not sure this is true) but gave you an answer anyway (My mistake), and you turned it into something that wasn’t even part of the conversation, which I think you have a tendency to do.

    Also, your foreign relations plan may need to be left to others with more understanding of the situation and other complexities, but it does sound like an amiller…or postmillers…idea.

  35. “ISIS militants deserve death for their atrocious crimes against humanity”

    I agree EricL

    But how, is the U.S. supposed to police the world?

    Is it even possible?

    And what vacuum would be created?

    Countries generally look out for their own interests and the interests of the partnering countries e.g., NATO

  36. Q – are there religious people who are Jewish that are not Jews? Are there people who have the Jewish religion but do not have this Jewish genealogy you speak of? (Sammy Davis Jr.)

    Are genealogical Jews any different than genealogical Peruvians?

    Again, I think some of you folks are such Zionists that you make up stuff about who current day Jews are.

  37. MLD’s point is no different than what was said about Al Qaeda, who also killed far more Muslims than non-Muslims but managed to put a dent or two in the non-Islamic West too.

    For that matter Hitler killed a lot of non-Jews too in his rise to power..

    These Islamic groups are vying for superiority among their own people first, which in these Islamic nations means killing plenty of Muslims. That is totally irrelevant though in terms of their equal desire to kill non-Muslims, as well. To act like this is purely an Islamic denominational civil war with the occasional Christian as accidental collateral damage is woefully naive. Islam is not a religion only. It is an entire way of life. Political, cultural, financial.

    The problem is that Islamic world may be divided with different groups wanting power, but the different groups seem pretty united in wiping out our brothers and sisters in Christ

  38. Steve,
    I am all for ISIS and Al Qaeda being wiped out – and I mean totally wiped out – but not because we are Christians and they are Muslims… and that is the whole point of the Walid article.

    We should do something because we are Christians or we should do something because we are a Christian nation etc. is his thinking.

    No, how about we do it because it is right?

  39. “The problem is that Islamic world may be divided with different groups wanting power, but the different groups seem pretty united in wiping out our brothers and sisters in Christ”

    So, what are Christians in this country doing about the (in my opinion) massive amount of killing that is occurring right here in America against our brothers and sisters in Christ? Is there another First World country that has a higher homicide rate than our country? If you add all the First World countries’ annual homicides together, do they add up to the annual homicides in the U.S.A. alone?

    How many innocent lives (counted as collateral damage) does the U.S. military snuff out on an annual basis? Does god bless that?

  40. It’s funny that so many folks look at the absolute evil of Islam and say that Islam has grown because of negative Western influence that Islam has grown.
    That is “purposefully obtuse” (Shawshank!)

    I agree with MLD, that ISIS and Al Queda should be wiped out because it is right. But we would need Muslims to cooperate in the destruction of both, and they will not because they do not and do not see them as evil. “Reasonable” Muslims can claim they are the non-violent majority, but they are the irrelevant majority. They are irrelevant because they do nothing to ameliorate the evil done in the name of Islam.

    Listen, if I become a “radicalized” Christian, I give away more money, I go to further lands for mission work, I clothe and feed more poor people, I go to greater extremes to share the Gospel – I open more orphanages, open more hospitals. That is the “radicalized” extension of my Christianity.

    If I become “radicalized” in Muslim faith . . . I practice female genital mutilation, I participate in honor killings, I put suicide vests on developmentally disabled children, I cut the heads off of “radicalized Christians”, I fly planes into buildings.

    The answer is obvious, it is right, it is good and true. But the rest of the world doesn’t agree where “right” is.

  41. “It’s funny that so many folks look at the absolute evil of Islam and say that Islam has grown because of negative Western influence that Islam has grown.
    That is “purposefully obtuse” (Shawshank!)”

    That was not my statement. I made no statement about the growth of Islam (I don’t know whether or not it has grown). My statement was about the growth of Islamic extremism manifested in war and terrorism.

    “Listen, if I become a “radicalized” Christian, I give away more money, I go to further lands for mission work, I clothe and feed more poor people, I go to greater extremes to share the Gospel – I open more orphanages, open more hospitals. That is the “radicalized” extension of my Christianity.”

    Yep, Rob, that is the life of a disciple of Christ. That is God’s weapon in the war against evil. That is the example we have from our Savior who pioneered the way to salvation for us. A servant is not greater than his master.

  42. Quoting Jean: The more America has involved itself in military conflict in the Middle East, the worse things have gotten there for people and the more Islamic extremism has grown.

    That’s your post quoted #24

    Here’s your post #41
    I made no statement about the growth of Islam (I don’t know whether or not it has grown). My statement was about the growth of Islamic extremism manifested in war and terrorism.

    You lied in #41.

  43. That’s cheap parsing. Islam is Islamic extremism. Your logic is what is getting people killed. Stop it.

  44. Rob #42,
    I just reread both posts, and I can’t find a lie or inconsistency. What am I missing.

  45. Free reformation material in honor of Reformation Day

    http://www.ligonier.org/store/collection/free-reformation-day-friday/?mobile=off

    Enjoy!

  46. MLD,

    Now we have what appears to be a third category ‘Jewish’, that sounds cultural.

    So now we have, Jew (genealogical), Judaism (religion that a person can convert to), and Jewish (that sounds cultural [customs, food, etc.]

    Were you born a Jew or did you convert and unconverted or did you just like the customs until you became a disciple of ML?

    I guess I am an ex heathen.

  47. Rob #43,

    Before the U.S. supported Bin Laden in Afghanistan, was there an Al Qaeda? Before U.S. bases were placed in Saudi Arabia and elsewhere in the Persian Gulf, were there Islamic attacks on U.S. assets in the Middle East and eventually in New York? Before the U.S. deposed Saddam Hussein were there ISAL or Al Qaeda in Iraq or Syria? I could go on and on.

    When the U.S. wars against ISAL and Al Qaeda in Iraq and Syria, who do you think are the direct regional beneficiaries? Are we now allies with Iran and Assad of Syria?

    Is it a Christian doctrine that “the enemy of my enemy is my friend”?

    We sell billions of dollars worth of military gear across the Middle East. Is that good? If you think it is, why can’t those countries defend the interests of their region.

    Our arms industry in many instances are merchants of death. Death here at home through all the senseless killing that terrorize our neighborhoods, and death abroad.

  48. Where do you get that Jew is a special genealogy – I asked earlier is Peruvian not a genealogy people.

    I was not born a Jew – were you born a Christian?I was born to parents who were Jews. Are you confusing it with a race like blacks or Asians.

    Again you are making stuff up. So a Jew and a Jewish peraon are 2 different things?

  49. “Where do you get that Jew is a special genealogy”

    Guess.

  50. I’m an ex Japheth.

  51. Well I read somewhere (guess) that not all Jews are Jews. In fact claiming Abraham as your Father (genealogy) does you no good.

    How about that? as Mel Allen used to say.

  52. MLD, John the Baptist?

  53. Apostle Paul Romans 9
    ” But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “

  54. Agree. Matt 3 :9 also.

  55. A descendant of Abraham, doesn’t make you a descendant of Jacob (Israel).

  56. True Q. So what do you think John meant?

  57. That is, it is not the children of the flesh that are children of God; but the children of the promise are reckoned for a seed.

  58. If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

  59. Jean, @56

    I don’t know what you are asking.

  60. #57, 58,

    Yes, excellent.

  61. Q, if your #55 was not responding to my #54, then please ignore my #56.

  62. Here’s what I think:

    All Christians are Jews, no matter what their ancestry.

    Rob’s comparison of radicalized Islam and radicalized Christianity is one of the best things I’ve read in a long time.

  63. Xenia,

    I think all Christians are descended from Abraham, some physically, some spiritually (as in all nations (people) will be blessed through you, and some Christians are descended from Jacob physically.

  64. All Christians are not Jews. Christians (both Jew and Gentile) draw their ancestry back to Abraham.

    Jesus and Caesar, now there’s a comparison.

  65. Not all of Abraham’s children are children of promise and not all of God’s children (most) descend from Israel.

  66. I had a conversation with a great friend over the weekend about Israel. He couldn’t believe I didn’t find any biblical significance with Israel becoming a nation in 1948. I asked why I should and I asked him if the nation as a whole believed in Jesus. After that the conversation quickly turned into the 4 blood moons and the feasts of Israel. This is just wacky stuff. But he still is one of my best friends but I’ll tell you this is probably the most bizarre theology around.

  67. So, what are Christians in this country doing about the (in my opinion) massive amount of killing that is occurring right here in America against our brothers and sisters in Christ? Is there another First World country that has a higher homicide rate than our country?
    ——————————————————————————
    Jean, what are you doing? For starters let’s vote the bums out that have turned our inner cities into the ruins they are over the past 40-50 years. – You want them all reelected.

    But you are delirious if you think that the homicide rate in this country has anything to do with the Christian faith or is in the same discussion as what is happening to Christians under Islamic regimes.

    And I second everything that Rob wrote above. Well said, Rob.

  68. What I’d like to know from my Christian Israel-supporter friends is whether America should support every Israeli government and every Israeli government decision no matter what? Should the American check book be open and unrestricted, and should America’s foreign policy be subservient to the policies of Israel? Is that what the Bible requires?

  69. No, how about we do it because it is right?
    ——————————
    Agree with you MLD. I said as much in my first post in this thread. Christianity is irrelevant to the discussion.

    The thing is though, you DON’T support taking them out. You have been very clear on your military views here over the years.

  70. Jean, even the most diehard dispy preacher out there would take issue with your #68. That is just plain silly

  71. Steve, within the last week, I’ve read an article by a mega church preacher who is blaming Obama for trying to divide Jerusalem for the Ebola scare in this country.

    I read another article by a different mega church pastor who said the Ebola scare is the beginning judgment by God for gay marriage in this country.

    What kind of theology do you suppose generates this type of preaching?

  72. Jean you’re rambling now and just throwing every random thing you have against the wall.

    Good night

  73. Oh, I forgot after the conversation about the blood moons with my friend it progressed to Ebola and than gay marriage. I’m with Jean, what kind of theology generates this silliness?

  74. I did something I haven’t done in a long time today. I filled out my mail-in ballot and checked all the Repubs (with one exception). Not crazy about the Repubs all the time but I have had it up to my eyeballs with the Dems.

  75. what kind of theology generates this silliness?<<<

    It is the kind of theology of people who are awaiting (some form of) the 2nd Coming.

  76. Xenia, the problem is the blood moons and the Ebola and Israel and gay marriage completely eclipse Jesus in the message. If its about his second coming these folks seem to be missing the point.

  77. Xenia,

    I have been considering becoming an Independent. I’m finding it hard to support either of the two main groups and it seems Independents decide the vote anyway.

    I am going to look into what an Independent really is, do you know?

  78. I haven’t read this thread, so excuse me if this has already been said. Let the reader understand.

    “Shoebat is calling for a new Crusade to wipe out Islam and spread Christianity at the point of a sword.”

    “Progress, far from consisting in change, depends on retentiveness. When change is absolute there remains no being to improve and no direction is set for possible improvement: and when experience is not retained, as among savages, infancy is perpetual. Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it. In the first stage of life the mind is frivolous and easily distracted, it misses progress by failing in consecutiveness and persistence. This is the condition of children and barbarians, in which instinct has learned nothing from experience.”

    George Santayana, The Life of Reason, Volume 1, 1905

  79. Yeah, I think that has been said.

  80. On a lighter note, if you were kicking a football, would you be Charlie Brown or Lucy?

  81. Andrew, much of American Christianity doesn’t want a crucified Lord. They want a vengeful warrior God. They want a god in their image.

  82. Q, I am a registered Independent which I have always defined as “None of the above.” I registered as an independent more as a gesture of disdain than conviction. Kind of thumbing my nose at the Repubs. But I am so sick of the Dems and there’s no Indies on the ballot this year.

  83. Ixtlan,

    I did not mean any disrespect.

    I meant what are the chances that that been said in this thread?

  84. Steve @69
    I totally support taking them out. Just not the US – let the rest of the world pick up the slack. We can cheer them on.

    The rest of the world can assemble an unbeatable force without us.

  85. Xenia,

    I’m going to look into it more. I have voted rebub because they have been more where I am at, but now it is to partisan, plus, I think, many mistakes have been made based on, hmm… weird thinking.

  86. Xenia, I even despise being labeled an independent – for the past 8 yrs I have been registered as “decline to state.”

  87. MLD,

    Do you have an opinion on the Charlie Brown and Lucy football kicking thing?

  88. Yes, I think Charlie Brown is foolish for falling for the same trick all the time.

  89. Let’s see; what was behind the original Crusades….

    1. Muslims had taken over the holy places in Jerusalem and pilgrims were being hassled.
    [Although by the time the Pope gave his speech, this was not strictly true anymore.)

    2. The Byzantine Empire had been so decimated by Turkish depredations that it was reduced to a small sliver of its former self and the Emperor asked the Pope to send some crack troops to help out.
    [The Byz Emperor wanted the Marines; instead he got a ragged mob.]

    3. The Pope saw this as a chance to make a grab for the Greek East so he was thrilled to send troops.
    [You would be surprised how many times this has happened in the history of the RCC]

    4. The Pope (Urban II) preached a whopper of a sermon, offering a “Get out of Purgatory Free” card as bait.

    How does then compare to now?

  90. much of American Christianity doesn’t want a crucified Lord. They want a vengeful warrior God. They want a god in their image.
    ————————————————
    LOL. Yeah right, Name a few. Or is the argument now that only the pagans and atheists should serve in the armed forces or support conceal and carry laws. Again, you’re missing the entire two kingdom distinction. Being a citizen and steward in this unique country, and being a Christian too.

    Actually, a far, far greater number within American Christianity don’t want a holy Lord. A sinless Lord. They want a god in their image.

    I think the latter group is the greater problem, but also expect them to be goosestepping to the beat if America ever suffers any serious persecution one day.

  91. MLD,

    Do you think Charlie Brown would registered as ‘decline to state’?

    That seems more Peppermint Patty.

  92. But I am so sick of the Dems and there’s no Indies on the ballot this year.
    ————————————————————–
    Nor will there ever be again (in California).

  93. I almost never watch TV news but I had a babysitting gig the past year and watched the news on their TV. This was very depressing.

  94. Locally, the city fathers are tying to ruin our poor little town by bringing in a horse racing track w/ gambling. Good grief, Charlie Brown.

  95. I split my vote pretty good this year. I voted for Jerry Brown because he is so much fun. Gov Moonbeam while dating Linda Ronstadt
    http://www.ronstadt-linda.com/newsweek79.htm

    I also voted for Kamala Harris for AG and John Chiang for treasurer – the rest were republicans

    This way my kids are happy – they are split and my class at church is happy because they are split.

    See, I am the peacemaker. 🙂

  96. Has anyone ever flown their house like snoopy?

  97. Linda Ronstadt was in my husband’s high school class. We went to his class reunion in AZ recently but she wasn’t there. She has come in the past, but is not in good health these days, was the word. Actually, most of the people at that reunion looked pretty shaky. My husband was the best looking man there!

  98. That may have already been asked.

  99. Q, whoever you R, I am glad you are here.

  100. I don’t know what is so good about independent candidate. The ones who run are usually those rejected in primaries by their party or just plain disgruntles.

    Besides Bernie Sanders, I don’t know one who is different from the hooked up ones. If elected they usually show their true colors by who they choose to caucus with.

  101. I guess I am closest to Sally in the Halloween special.

    Screaming at Linus for foolishly expecting goodies to be brought to him from out of the sky, while he sits around all night not even willing to walk the neighborhood….that his sincerity and faith was all that was needed.

    And then, in the face of failure, he continues to talk about how the next year it will finally all work out.

  102. “My husband was the best looking man there!”

    Excellent.

  103. Linda Ronstadt has Parkinson’s – still get’s around some but had to give up singing.

  104. Xenia, she has Parkinsons and recently announced it was bad enough that she no longer can sing anymore.

  105. I am Snoopy. I live in a dream world.

  106. Xenia,

    Is the Red Baron really that good?

    Or is Snoopy exaggerating?

    I’m glad you are here too.

  107. The close to 1 million militia members in the US would not be very accepting of “The New Militia”. They learned to weed out extremists in the 90’s.

  108. Xenia,

    I really meant this.

    “My husband was the best looking man there!”

    Excellent.

    My wife thinks the same, what a good wife and lucky man I am, not to mention she is, well hmm…well hmm…pretty to say the least. Like, when we go somewhere, uh, well, people uh, watch us, never mind.

    You are cool.

  109. Someone will probably post a comment when they wake up, older people seem to kind of fall a sleep early, and wake up during the night and are unable to go back to sleep.

    Okay I’m out.

    Wait I’m back.

    No I’m out.

  110. “Again, you’re missing the entire two kingdom distinction. Being a citizen and steward in this unique country, and being a Christian too.”

    Steve, it is you who misses the two kingdom distinction. Yes, the Christian is a citizen of both kingdoms (spiritual and temporal), but the Christian does not have a split personality and neither does God. When Jesus and the Apostles gave us Christian ethics and moral teaching, they did not hand down two different sets, one for our usage in the kingdom of God and a different set for our usage in His temporal kingdom. There is only one set.

    America has been intoxicated for so long by the illusion of the power of the sword, that many Christians, cannot read and understand the scandolus and foolish message that Jesus preached and embodied by his life freely given for us. That message is as radical today as it was then, and like then, it is still rejected by those who are waiting for a different kind of messiah.

    If you think that the Western world is at war with Islam, then why don’t you advocate raising money to get the Christians out of the war zone and then let the various Muslim factions kill each other. Our involvement in these sectarian and civil wars has proven to cause more harm than good.

  111. MLD – I know you always like to blame evangelicals for every kind of evil…but the Shoebats are Roman Catholic.

  112. But it is the evangelicals that pay attention,invite them to speak and promote their works. Go back to the beginning of the conversation – I just asked the question what it is that evangelicals are lacking that they put the teachings of the Caners and Shoebats up on their stages.

    I think we know why. btw, good to see you here. I am glad my comments can bring you out once in a while 😉

  113. I can’t find a speaking schedule for them. I don’t know who is promoting their stuff, other than CNN.

    But anyhow, I don’t like what they are saying at all. The Lord’s power is not through bombs.

    Always good to see you too, MLD.

  114. “MLD – I know you always like to blame evangelicals for every kind of evil…”

    Not really – just Christian silliness – look at the trinket section of a Christian bookstore.

    Here is the issue – forget the bombs. Why do these 2 groups of “former terrorists” have anything to say that is worthwhile to the gospel? Besides, I thought the Soviet Union was the great adversary to Israel – why do evangelical get themselves distracted by Arabs and Muslims?

  115. Catholics sell trinkets that are necessary for salvation. We’re all guilty, Evangelicals are just the biggest target right now.

    “Why do evangelical get themselves distracted by Arabs and Muslims?”
    Because they are chopping people’s heads off?

  116. Jean,

    Glad to see your libertarian view of war.

  117. Josh,

    Should American Christians expect our military to intervene in every global atrocity? Boko Haram has killed more people that ISIS, but intervention doesn’t jive with our leaders’ agenda.

    How many unfunded wars should we start?

  118. Jim,

    Happy Friday! We could use a little Florida weather up here today.

  119. We’re gonna need some this weekend. Cold front coming…

  120. Jim, why would you ask me that question?

  121. Josh-your 115.

  122. Oh, I didn’t advocate war. I’m against war. I was answering MLD’s charge of “distracted”. Beheading seems worthy of distraction to me.

  123. I’m sorry Josh. I was wrong.

  124. No prob. Hope you are doing well.

  125. Jean….I recognize we don’t stop being Christians when we are at work in our earthly kingdoms. I know there are not two sets of rules.

    Can a Christian serve anywhere (not just the military but the police, private security etc) where the need to know how to use a lethal weapon is required and the willingness to use lethal force if necessary is part of the job. THAT is the two kingdom reference I refer to.

    Do you answer yes to this question?

  126. Yes, the Christian is a citizen of both kingdoms (spiritual and temporal), but the Christian does not have a split personality and neither does God. When Jesus and the Apostles gave us Christian ethics and moral teaching, they did not hand down two different sets, one for our usage in the kingdom of God and a different set for our usage in His temporal kingdom. There is only one set.
    —————————————————————–
    Funny Jean how all those Democrats who profess to be Christians sure don’t see it this way. And then when some Republican argues Biblical values and teachings be key to our political government it is guys like you that yell the loudest.

    I can’t tell you how many times I have heard some Democrat talk about what a faithful Catholic he/she is but why it is absolutely necessary for said Democrat to fight every possible legislation or judicial appointment that might limit how many babies we kill in the womb.

  127. “Can a Christian serve anywhere (not just the military but the police, private security etc) where the need to know how to use a lethal weapon is required and the willingness to use lethal force if necessary is part of the job. THAT is the two kingdom reference I refer to.”

    Steve, you are proving my point that you don’t understand two kingdoms theology. You could ask: Can a Christian serve at an abortion clinic? Can a Christian serve at a bordello? Can a Christian serve at a euthanasia clinic in Oregon? Can a Christian serve as an executioner in a prison?

    The answer is that if the vocation violates God’s law, then the general rule is “no.”

    So, for any of these questions, including your question regarding vocations which utilize the exercise of lethal force, if the Christian believes that that vocation would violate God’s law, then as a general rule he/she must not serve in that vocation. Regardless of whether or not that vocation is legal by the laws of the temporal kingdom, God’s law as a general rule takes precedence for the Christian.

  128. I guess I can summarize my view this way. If I was on a VISA as an American Christian doing ministry in India, and was arrested for my Christian faith I would not use any force to fight back in any way. The only thing available to me would be to flee if the possibility allowed itself.

    However, if I was a Christian who was also a native citizen of India. And the Muslims organized and started a civil war in an attempt to take over my homeland India and establish Sharia Law, then I would join side by side with my fellow Hindu citizens and fight the Muslims to the death so my land would remain free (even as it would remain largely Hindu and not Christian).

    I see no inconsistency in the two actions whatsoever.

  129. Jean, I asked you the question because I was seriously interested in your answer, not knowing (but suspecting) what you may say. You still chose to answer in general terms pointing to the personal conviction of the believer, and not some absolute standard before God…which is puzzling. And of course, you can’t answer me without calling me ignorant, but that is par for the course.

    Maybe I should be clearer and ask one more time. To you, Jean, is there any difference before the Lord between my lethal force job and working in a bordello or an abortion clinic.

  130. “Funny Jean how all those Democrats who profess to be Christians sure don’t see it this way. And then when some Republican argues Biblical values and teachings be key to our political government it is guys like you that yell the loudest.

    I can’t tell you how many times I have heard some Democrat talk about what a faithful Catholic he/she is but why it is absolutely necessary for said Democrat to fight every possible legislation or judicial appointment that might limit how many babies we kill in the womb.”

    Steve,
    More than just about anyone else I can think of here, you love to judge, label, categorize, and even tell other people how they think. Please stop that. And why is everything about Democrats and Republicans with you? Have I ever told you how I register? Do you know how I vote on every issue? Is my political affiliation or voting record germane to the issues of this discussion?

    If you’ve kept track of my comment record on this blog, you would notice that I have taken a lot of heat from people here for my position that our country’s laws should reflect biblical values. Where I get cross ways with you is in the hypocrisy of many evangelicals who pick and choose which biblical values they want reflected in government, while ignoring or actually lobbying against the biblical values that don’t align with their political ideology.

    Christians need to decide where their paramount citizenship resides.

  131. If I am talking about actual politicians, giving actual speeches and making actual votes on actual issues like abortion, it is hardly “labelling: to mention the party affiliation of that politician.

    It may be embarrassing to you, give your own leanings…but to (once more) make that somehow the problem of me the messenger is weak sauce.

  132. Jean, Then is it your belief that a good Christian would never serve in the military nor be a police officer?

  133. Is my…..voting record germane to the issues of this discussion?
    —————————————————–
    By your own statements above it would be. You don’t stop being a Christian at the voting booth, right?

    I have read your posts in the past, Jean. I would challenge you to cite one example in my life of some picking and choosing of “Biblical” values when it comes to the earthly kingdom. Except, I know that you believe God ordains the state to do what the church is supposed to do. So (because I HAVE paid attention to your posts over the years) you will say (as you have in the past) that opposition to bad laws like Obamacare is me being more conservative and less Christian. I see it as being fully Christian because I think laws and the force of compliance behind those laws, when they do far more harm than good to the vast majority of the citizenry is about as ungodly as imaginable. Plus the general tenor of the Great Society that has created a new generation of the perpetually impoverished. Hardly Christian at all.

    So we are at odds there and won’t convince each other otherwise on these blogs.

    Of course, the added issue is the side you agree with also promotes the killing of babies, sexual perversion, the removal of God from the public square and a myriad of issues that even you would disagree with…so you have a lot to choke down alongside what you feel is your Christian obligation.

    Last word is yours. I have to run now.

  134. It is obvious that neither of you understands the 2 kingdoms. It’s not about what a Christian can or cannot do.

    2 Kingdom theology is that you have the church and you have civil government – and God works through both kingdoms EQUALLY but for completely different purposes.

    1.) God works through the Church for the sole purpose of forgiving sin
    2.) God works through the civil government BY THE SWORD to maintain order so that the work of the Church may be accomplished

  135. “Jean, I asked you the question because I was seriously interested in your answer, not knowing (but suspecting) what you may say. You still chose to answer in general terms pointing to the personal conviction of the believer, and not some absolute standard before God…which is puzzling. And of course, you can’t answer me without calling me ignorant, but that is par for the course.”

    Steve,
    I did not give you a definitive answer to your #128, because the question was too vague. However, your subsequent question regarding the military invasion of one’s homeland for the purpose of establishing Sharia law is a more specific question that I’m prepared to answer. While I would respect the personal conviction of any Christian who would not pick up the sword even in that scenario, but who would serve nonetheless by non-lethal means, I believe war in that scenario would be morally justified in accordance with the Christian just war doctrine, which has been handed down to the church from the time of Augustine.

    I will add that in my opinion (unless I’m forgetting some minor conflict somewhere) no war the U.S. has fought in since WWII has met the criteria of the just war doctrine.

    Steve,
    I am not embarrassed about what I believe. I would hope that whether people agree or disagree with me that I am as transparent as anyone here. I also continue to live and grow and my views change as God continues to reveal new sin in me and as He grants me further wisdom. So, neither am I embarrassed if I come to new knowledge that may conflict with something I previously thought was right or true.

  136. This article and subsequent comments provide an illustration of just how many different ways denominations and individuals can use the bible to “prove” one’s stance on any issue. I wonder often why a creator would create such intricacy and indisputable evidence in the natural world down to the magnificence of a single cell to the vastness of the galaxies yet give us a book and a plan of salvation that was so easily interpreted in a multitude of ways. Truly boggles my poor pea brain trying to wrap my head around it all.

  137. #133,

    “Jean, Then is it your belief that a good Christian would never serve in the military nor be a police officer?”

    J.U.,
    I don’t really like the term “good” Christian, because any goodness in us is the fruit of the Spirit, not of our own doing. But to answer your question, a Christian should make that determination by his/her own conscience in accordance with the Word of God. I stated above in #136 that I believe in the just war doctrine. I haven’t though a lot about civil police. The civil police function does a lot of good and is important for preserving order and liberty. Having lethal self-protection probably is morally just. Killing a psycho who is threatening 5 other people with lethal force seems morally just. So, I would say “yes” to serving as a police officer.

    What do you think?

  138. “It is obvious that neither of you understands the 2 kingdoms. It’s not about what a Christian can or cannot do.”

    MLD, perhaps you should bone up a little on the 2 kingdoms. 🙂 The Church and State both function in God’s left hand kingdom. God’s right hand kingdom is ruled by the Spirit which enables Christians to obey. The left hand kingdom consists of 3 estates: ecclesiastical; political; and economic institutions. It is true that the church serves both God’s spiritual and temporal governance.

    In my previous comments, I was looking at the 2 kingdoms from the human perspective, whereas, the above description looks from God’s perspective. But I believe that there is no conflict.

  139. #137,

    Anne,

    That’s an excellent question. One that I also ask myself.

  140. Jean, I don’t have a well thought out answer as this never applied to me. I was not drafted during the Vietnam conflict because I didn’t qualify, and I never considered a career in law enforcement.

    I understand why a person’s conscience and beliefs might prevent an individual from pursuing any occupation that could involve them performing violence, even though it would be in the line of duty.

    I think that each individual must make that decision for themselves and they don’t need my advice or counsel. As Anne pointed out, different interpretations of scripture makes Christianity a diverse group. So opinions most certainly would vary on this topic like all the others debated, often on this blog.

  141. Martin Luther wrote:

    “I am also a doctor and preacher, yea, as learned and experienced as all those may be who have such presumption and security; yet I do as a child who is being taught the Catechism, and ever morning, and whenever I have time, I read and say, word for word, the Ten Commandments, the Creed, the Lord’s Prayer, the Psalms, etc. And I must still read and study daily, and yet I cannot master it as I wish, but must remain a child and pupil of the Catechism, and am glad so to remain.”

    Remaining a child! Sound familiar?

    Perhaps the most any of us can do who ponder the “whats” and “whys” is to remain in the posture of child and pupil, and keep our focus heavenward.

  142. MLD – Even though Jean and I may disagree, we are at least speaking the same language. Namely our responsibilities as citizens of two realms (kingdoms). The heavenly and the earthly.

    Not really focused on whatever the official Lutheran definition is, but certainly the idea that God works through the church solely to forgive sin is ludicrous and one Jean and I, I am sure, would both strongly disagree about. (Unless Lutherans also have different meanings for words like “solely”)

    Now, as to the occupation issue, I think the point is that for one Christian to say serving in the military or as a police officer is not Christian would go against the idea of freedom of conscience that was expressed above.

    However, I think we could all agree that at least SOME professions where one can make money can’t be undertaken by a Christian. For example, the making of p*rn*graphic movies.

    And that is where a lot of the debate lands. I can disagree with the pacifist, but respect that belief as rooted in their Christianity. However, I think we can ask of the pacifist the same respect and certainly not lump in the one with differing views as not really different than the dirty movie maker.

  143. John the baptist had a word for soldiers in Luke 3-

    13 And he said to them, “Collect no more than you are authorized to do.” 14 Soldiers also asked him, “And we, what shall we do?” And he said to them, “Do not extort money from anyone by threats or by false accusation, and be content with your wages.”

    Would have been a great opportunity to tell them to lay down their swords, had that been his opinion.

  144. “MLD – Even though Jean and I may disagree, we are at least speaking the same language.”

    It may be the same language but it is still the same wrong language. When Jesus announce the building of his church he said it was for the purpose of binding and loosing sin. He said that the gates of hell could not stop the church from reaching in and saving people.

    Anything added to that, you guys picked up from the RCC.

  145. Jean @ 139 well said. My understanding is that the right handed kingdom is completely invisible so even what we see going on in Church Sunday morning is part of the left handed kingdom even though we know the right handed kingdom is there too.

  146. That is something else. There you are distinguishing between the visible church and the invisible church.In fact we observe such this Sunday.

  147. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two_kingdoms_doctrine

    The two kingdoms doctrine is simply another form of the distinctive Lutheran teaching of Law and Gospel. The official book that defines Lutheranism, the “Book of Concord” compiled in 1580, references a sermon by Martin Luther on this from 1528 preached on the 19th Sunday after Trinity in Marburg, about the Two Kingdoms or Two Kinds of Righteousness.[1][2]

    In that sermon he states that the wordly (left hand) Kingdom includes everything we can see and do in our bodies.
    _______________________________________________________________________

    With this definition above I guess I assumed the right handed kingdom was everything else that we couldn’t see.

  148. Andrew, the sentence right above the one you quoted says exactly what I said in my #135

    “According to the doctrine, God rules the worldly or left-hand kingdom through secular (and, though this point is often misunderstood, also churchly) government, by means of law (i.e., the sword or compulsion) and in the heavenly or righthand kingdom (his spiritual kingdom, that is, Christians insofar as they are a new creation who spontaneously and voluntarily obey) through the gospel or grace.”

    The fact that it says Churchly government should not cloud the issue. I have always said that my work at the church, president of the congregation and the teacher of the adult Bible class are left hand kingdom activities. But what is happening in the sanctuary, up on the chancel and at the altar are solely right hand kingdom. But it is done through the Church.

    Otherwise, described as some have here, the Church becomes a gnostic organization.

  149. When Jesus announce the building of his church he said it was for the purpose of binding and loosing sin. He said that the gates of hell could not stop the church from reaching in and saving people
    ————————————————-
    I’m going to copy this and use it alongside the actual Scripture as my new textbook example of eisegesis.

    Thanks MLD!

  150. 150,

    I wonder what would have happened to the church in Jerusalem if Paul couldn’t have made the collections from the Gentile churches because their purpose was limited to binding and loosing sin.

  151. Jean & Steve – you both make the error of confusing the work of Christians in the church vs God’s purpose for even having a church.

    Also, you confuse secular and spiritual as the 2 kingdoms. Not even close – but then you both come from traditions that have no doctrine or theology of 2 kingdoms. So you don’t know.

    Jean – at #151 are you saying that God’s purpose for the church is to support the church?

  152. “but then you both come from traditions that have no doctrine or theology of 2 kingdoms. So you don’t know.”

    That’s true, but I’m working hard to bring myself up to speed. In order to be faithful to that theology, I try to study and cite Lutheran sources. Be patient Sensei 🙂

    “Jean – at #151 are you saying that God’s purpose for the church is to support the church?”

    No, but I think the purpose of the church is more than binding and loosing sin, by a long shot.

  153. I will accept Steve;s challenge and we will see who twists the scriptures. What I said at #145 is exactly what Matthew 16 says – perhaps Steve would accuse Matthew of using the eisegesis.

    18 And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

    Let’s see –
    1.) I said – “When Jesus announce the building of his church” – Matthew said “and on this rock I will build my church” – so Jesus is building his church
    2.) I said – “He said that the gates of hell could not stop the church from reaching in and saving people.” – Matthew said “and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.” Meaning, the gates of hell cannot stop the work of the church. The gates of hell cannot stop the gospel.
    3.) I said – “it was for the purpose of binding and loosing sin.” – Matthew said ” will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

    If Matthew 16 is not a purpose statement by Jesus for the church, well I guess I can’t comprehend simple sentences. Show me the eisegesis… or were you just showing off your vocabulary? 😉

  154. MLD,
    Having study that text, why do you think that “binding and loosing” is restricted to sin?

    Also, we read Paul’s discussion of the Body of Christ:

    “though many, form one body, and each member belongs to all the others. We have different gifts, according to the grace given to each of us. If your gift is prophesying, then prophesy in accordance with your faith; if it is serving, then serve; if it is teaching, then teach; if it is to encourage, then give encouragement; if it is giving, then give generously; if it is to lead, do it diligently; if it is to show mercy, do it cheerfully” (R. 12 :5-8);

    it sure looks at though the purpose of the church is much broader than simply binding and loosing sin.

    I don’t recall Jesus saying in M. 16 that binding and loosing sin is the only purpose of the church. Do you?

    Sorry for budding in Steve, but I just happened to be reading. Please feel free to add or correct my comments.

  155. The gates of hell is death…not some euphemism for some weapon or attack. (Oh wait, I forgot that MLD allegorizes whenever the need suits him). Who ever fought with a gate?

    Gates are the entrances to a location. Hell (Hades in this case, Sheol in Hebrew) is a location where everyone went to at death before the resurrection.

    But people hear, hell, think of Satan, and imagine this is about satanic attack not prevailing ON EARTH, which is a hard pill to swallow in Iraq right about now.

    Jesus saying that death would not win is a pretty common statement – for those who care to interpret Scripture with Scripture. Multiple verses could be cited.

    Now, maybe I am wrong with that interpretation. Unlike you I leave open that possibility But you sure can’t be dogmatic about that thing you are throwing out there either.

    As to the church – the leadership is to “equip the saints (all believers) for the work of the ministry” – Jean covered the role of gifts already. To parse semantics about the work of Christians who are the church and the work of “the church” makes no sense.

    Leave it to MLD to bring Jean and I to full agreement in this thread. 🙂

  156. Steve, just trying to keep it real:-)

  157. “As to the church – the leadership is to “equip the saints (all believers) for the work of the ministry” –

    Which is the great commission to bring people to a place to have their sin forgiven.

    Yes, you 2 are in full agreement that the purpose of the church is a working ground for man and not a place where God does his work.

    When people have their sin forgiven, when God has brought them into the body of Christ they then go out into the world and do the work.- for the purpose to bring in more folks to have their sin forgiven. Something about the harvest and the fields being full.

    Why don’t you guys just give it up and say that 2 kingdom theology is a fantasy … that is what your traditions teach. Don’t just try to be nice for my sake.;-)

    btw – death does win / prevail over the lost. Don’t sell death short.

  158. MLD,
    Do you remember in Acts when the widows in the church were being cared for by the church?

    The church is an eschatological community shining a light unto the nations.

  159. “…shining a light unto the nations.”

    For what purpose if not to have those folks believe in the true and living God, have their sins forgiven and become a part of the body of Christ?

    Is there another purpose for all these things?

  160. I think I see where the disconnect is MLD. I think Lutheranism sees salvation as wholly an after death hope (because you see yourselves trapped in Romans 7), whereas Wesleyans see salvation as an already and not yet promise, whereby God sanctifies Christians here in this life.

    So, the church not only draws the lost through the proclamation of the gospel, but also shines a prophetic light on the nations, and also works for shalom in the world. The vocation that God gave to Israel continues in the reconstituted people of God, which now includes both Jews and Gentiles who are in Christ. That’s why Paul goes all the way back to Abraham in Romans.

    I know Steve does not agree with a Wesleyan interpretation of Romans 7, so I am interested in his view of the purpose of the church, as well as any critique of my view he may have.

  161. 161,
    For clarification: sanctification is a work in process in this life.

  162. Salvation is a now thing for Lutherans – we have been saved, we are being saved and we will be saved. We are saved sinners. We are not saved ‘former’ sinners. We are not ‘trapped’ in Romans 7 – Romans 7 is a description of our present state – I need Jesus today to cover my sin just as much as I did the day I was saved.. I have yet to meet a saved person who does not still struggle greatly with their sin – Romans 7 style..

    Sanctification is a little tricky though. We see sanctification as really a part of our justification – perhaps a hair separation. God has sanctified us.

    For those who believe in a progressive sanctification – say at this stage you are 50% sanctified and God is doing great things in your life… but you die tonight. Do you go to heaven just half baked? 😉

  163. Salvation is a now thing for Lutherans – we have been saved, we are being saved and we will be saved. We are saved sinners. We are not saved ‘former’ sinners. We are not ‘trapped’ in Romans 7 – a description of our present state – I need Jesus today to cover my sin just as much as I did the day I was saved.. I have yet to meet a saved person who does not still struggle greatly with their sin – Ch 7 style..

    Sanctification is a little tricky though. We see sanctification as really a part of our justification – perhaps a hair separation. God has sanctified us.

    For those who believe in a progressive sanctification – say at this stage you are 50% sanctified and God is doing great things in your life… but you die tonight. Do you go to heaven just half baked? 😉

  164. Michael = I have 2 in moderation for too many links – just delete them please

  165. 163, 164,
    Half baked describes me pretty well sometimes. 🙂

  166. Jean = did you have many trick or treaters tonight?

  167. Yeah, I’m guessing around 75. You, or is the gate to your compound locked tonight 🙂

  168. The Bulls are heading into overtime against LeBron’s Cavaliers.

  169. PP Vet,

    He didn’t exaggerate or misrepresent. He lied. He made up huge swaths of his “testimony.” He still claims to be a former Satanic High Priest and none of it can be corroborated. He still claims to be an ex-hippie when the photos from the time suggest nothing of the sort. He’s still pushing a lie….and it’s still for sale on his personal website marketed as his testimony.

    And even more, (and in line with the recent Mark Driscoll debacle), he claims to be the victim. Instead his follow-up being about repentance, it was about how he was wronged by Christians who saw his stories didn’t add up. It’s a sad story all around, and he still changes the subject to being the victim.

    There’s not much more to add.

  170. Mike Warneke even claimed to be an Orthodox priest at one point.

  171. well, i read the whole thread – down to #173 – and, frankly, except for one or two comments that i agreed with 🙂 i feel like i’ve just witnessed a gigantic pig-pile… erased my opinions, most of which were stated by Pastor Steve, anyway

    can’t believe i spent 45 minutes reading this

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