The Trojan Horse Speaks

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400 Responses

  1. Michael says:

    In the history of every movement there are definable turning points from which the direction of a movement, or lack of same… is determined.
    Calvary Chapel experienced one of those definable moments last week.
     
    One could not possibly overstate the political infighting that preceded this gathering and if I were to write what I know to be true that’s exactly what I would be accused of.
    All of that politicking availed little, but it helped the movement toward this fork in the road.
    The infighting didn’t produce a clear winner, but it did produce a survivor: Brian Brodersen.
    We posted the video of the Q&A with Brodersen, Bob Coy, and Greg Laurie…and that video encapsulated  the whole week so lets start there.
    First, a public video of anything from the CCSP was unthinkable just a short while ago and the availability of this one signaled a new openness that’s part of the new attitude Brodersen brings to the table.
    Another part of the new attitude was the expressed desire of the panel to “build bridges, not walls” with people of other traditions, including the dreaded “New Calvinists” and possibly old ones too.
    The tarring of another ministry with the “emergent” label was met head on and squashed…in front of some of those who had done the tarring.
    The high (and low) point of the discussion came with the question of who would lead Calvary Chapel and pastor Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa after the founder was gone.
    That’s a loaded question when the founder, though weakened and ill, is present.
    Chuck Smith’s answer was the same as it’s always been…’The Lord is the head of the church and He is our leader etc, etc.”
    While the words were received as high piety, they were really the words of a man who doesn’t like the question, will never step down, and who will die in the pulpit if possible.
    Those are also the words that will keep the politicians politicking at the expense of the movement.
    When the discussion turned from the movement to the mothership, Brodersen, in my opinion, became a leader.
    He calmly, graciously, but firmly asserted that he was already the co-pastor of Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa and intended to stay in that position.
    He said that knowing that very close to him were men who had recently conspired to take that position from him.
    He made a brilliant assertion that soon the pastors would have to distinguish between the movement itself and the church where the founder had preached…they would be two different entities now, leaving room for others to lead the movement while he pastors the church.
    Together, the men put forth a vision of Calvary Chapel unseen for a couple of decades…a CC that was based on love for the brethren and Bible teaching without the rancor and isolationism that has set in with time.
    This conference also featured seminars on financial accountability and protection for children and abuse reporting requirements…one long time senior pastor told me there was more focus on accountability in this conference than the ten previous ones put together.
    The young pastors in the movement are responding to this message as are many of the rest of rank and file.
    There are those who want to keep fighting and they will…some split is inevitable after Smith is gone.
    The question before the house is how many ways will it split?
    If the pastors support Brodersen, the splits will be minimal and there is much to be hopeful about.
    If  they don’t, this may have been the last real Calvary Chapel Senior Pastors Conference.

  2. Alex says:

    Bryson should make peace within his own family before he presumes to speak on behalf of God. If the bible is to be taken literally, he is disqualified. Poor Esther.

    It’s comical how Bryson is afraid to name people and thinks it not-weird in the way he tries to slyly allude to who he is really talking about without being direct. It comes across as very immature and very weak. No wonder he so easily conformed inside the Shiloh cult. Maybe BG and Raul can toughen him up a bit. Not Rosales, though, I’ve heard the taboo CC sin runs in his familia….just sayin’.

  3. Steve Wright says:

    I don’t believe that the real issues here are about Calvinism.
    They are about who is going to lead Calvary Chapel now and in the future.
    Many inside the movement believed that to be settled with the formation of the CCA…but as George notes, that is anything but settled.
    That…was my point to begin with.
    ——————————————————————–
    As one of your critics last time, let me repeat it is THIS sort of stuff that is worthy of criticism. A whole article about Calvinism and you conclude with “I don’t believe the REAL issues are about Calvinism”

    Nowhere (I challenge you to paste the sentence) does George doubt the legitimacy of the CCA replacing CCOF. Obviously, that is why he keeps repeating “CCA Board Member”

    Once more you insist on combining whatever issues are happening at Costa Mesa for that particular church, with the matter of concern for George and others as to Calvinist pastors being part of Calvary Chapel, and as to the future of the independence of the local CC church.

    I was critical of you before because you did not have or report all the facts as to the Sutton/Bryson situation (to date you have not written anything that shows you have them yet), you came up with some crazy theory that Chuck was playing two sides off each other, and you combined issues about the movement’s future with issues about the one church in Costa Mesa’s future.

    And you misquoted Chuck’s email – but you acknowledged I was right there.

  4. Alex says:

    Steve Wright has no Agenda.

    Move along now.

    …but I’m Agenda-driven and not to be trusted. Got it.

  5. Michael says:

    Steve,

    If you think that’s a crazy theory you really need better sources.

  6. covered says:

    Wow Steve are you kidding me? I always gave you the benefit of the doubt thinking maybe Lake Elsinore was far enough from Costa Mesa that you were a bit naive or sheltered. Now it’s looking more like you just refuse to believe anything that goes against “the movement”. George is referred to as a big mouth and a blow hard to every CC pastor I know.

  7. Michael says:

    Let’s be careful to be civil and avoid insulting anyone.
    I know when I post these that people will object to them and their content.
    That’s why we have comments open.

  8. erunner says:

    “That’s why we have comments open.”

    Proof positive you aren’t in the ODM camp!! 🙂

  9. brian says:

    I dont get this stuff to be honest. I mean Pastor Smith and Pastor Bryson are just that Pastors. It actually really does make sense to me and it makes me sad. I had a bunch of other stuff to say but figured, na.

  10. Alex says:

    Not all comments are open 🙂 just sayin 😆

  11. Cc pastor says:

    I am a CC pastor for a long time. PLEASE understand that almost none of us take Bryson seriously. He loves it when Michael makes him out to be someone important.

  12. filbertz says:

    just seems to me that some olders are trying to stay relevant and are frustrated the youngers aren’t ‘respectin’ their elders.’ I’m left scratching my head over this dustup.

  13. Michael says:

    CC Pastor,

    I think it’s a mistake to not take George seriously. I think he speaks for Chuck more than people give him credit for.

  14. covered says:

    Michael, I hear you and will heed your warning. It’s bothersome how intelligent people refuse to even consider the white elephant.

    I’m curious as to whether George thinks he would be allowed to spew his poison once Chuck is gone?

  15. filbertz says:

    It seems to me that CS diminishes his impact if he speaks through another agent. He has the status in the CC circle to get everyone’s attention by speaking directly. If these things are important to him, it is puzzling that he doesn’t utilize his greatest strength…his own voice.

  16. Steve Wright says:

    Michael (and covered), to clarify.

    Michael, I appreciate you are not an ‘evangelizing Calvinist’ – they do exist and I ran into several in my years worshiping and serving at Costa Mesa. Just like there are evangelizing pretrib/premill folks. In other words, you and I agree to disagree on some theological interpretations but agree that the ones who need to be evangelized are the lost who do not know Jesus – and when we run into a brother who knows the Lord but believes differently than we do on something, we do not feel the need to try and “convert” that brother to our particular hermeneutic. We may converse, even debate, but we accept as brothers (and sisters). I believe your website models this too.

    I hope that is fair to you and is accurate of us both.

    And since I think I know you fairly well after these many years, I can say without hesitation that you have no mission to bring Calvinism into Calvary Chapel. In fact, I believe I have seen you write clearly that CC is not the place for a Calvinist pastor. Something I also agree with. That does not mean George “speaks for me” or that I share to the same degree of concern he has about horses and columns.

    In my opinion, if someone is a Calvinist, they should not affiliate. But big deal, that is my opinion, and I’m nobody. Frankly, all I care about is the flock I oversee. If some Calvinists are CC pastors, I can see where that might bring confusion to THEIR flocks (or new visitors) but it won’t affect us, and I certainly feel I can enjoy fellowship with such a guy if I run into him at the CCSPC.Besides, people who listen to me speak on total depravity, security of the believer, the necessity of God to save us, and my lack of altar calls probably already think I am a Calvinist.

    I do believe it is important when you write a phrase like “who will lead Calvary Chapel in the future” that you distinguish between the church in Costa Mesa and the entire Association. That is the point I have made repeatedly and make again.

    I can’t stress enough the importance of the independence of the local church to a CC pastor (at least to me), and what affiliation is, and what it is not.

  17. filbertz says:

    covered,
    My take is GB won’t have a voice when CS is gone. Whoever follows will not measure up to GB’s expectations and that leader will not tolerate GB speaking for him.

    …but what do I know…? 😉

  18. Michael says:

    Steve,

    Thank you for the gracious and thoughtful reply.
    In my opinion (from the information that I’ve been able to gather) there is a faction that believes that the CCA under the influence of Broderson, Laurie, et all will lead to the type of changes that Bryson is objecting to.
    Thus the conflation between CCCM and the CCA.

  19. brian says:

    I think it would be wonderful if people did what was good for the community of faith. If one needs to step aside they do, if one needs to be more accepting they are etc. Of course I am a heretic and need to repent.

  20. covered says:

    fil, I will be surprised if we don’t see many responses against GB’s rant. While I believe that all heaven will break loose to fill Chuck’s spot when he goes home to be with The Lord, I can’t think of one leader with an ounce of integrity who will allow GB to continue as a spokesman.

  21. filbertz says:

    brian,
    you’re my kind of heretic.

  22. filbertz says:

    …you and Brennan Manning…

  23. Alex says:

    I thought everyone’s independent in CC? Seems a lie considering all the concern over what looks to be a Denominational squabble.

    God “hates” lying…but there’s always loopholes.

  24. jlo says:

    While, I would never fellowship in most CC again, this just makes me sad.

  25. filbertz says:

    alex,
    I have no fish in this aquarium, but it’s kind of interesting to watch the tangs and guppies. I think the larger context is that there are other independent churches and ‘fellowships’ and many share these types of drama. It is an American phenomenon in church politic.

  26. Michael says:

    “I think the larger context is that there are other independent churches and ‘fellowships’ and many share these types of drama. It is an American phenomenon in church politic.”

    Exactly!

  27. filbertz says:

    …tangs and guppies should be sea horses and whatcha-ma columns… 😉

  28. Kathy says:

    Wow. That e-mail from George Bryson. Pure weird.

    You know, if CC started mirror-site like PxP, I think it’d be wildly popular and they’ll be able to air out whatever controversies are plaguing them at the moment.

    I’m not talking about the existing CC Pastor blogs, which are filled with little more than Ned Flander euphemisms but I’m talking about a real blog, where the sheep can interact, bring forth genuine concerns, and where CC Pastors can talk about the “machine” behind the pulpit, such as the details of who will be in charge when CS dies, who handles the CCCM assets, etc….

    Till then, I guess we only have Michael. People may criticize Michael for his lack of reporting facts, but at least he writes about it. If we (the sheep) didn’t have him, we wouldn’t have any idea what is going on at CCCM.

  29. Kathy says:

    Here’s the wiki definiton of Trojan Horse
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trojan_Horse

    I don’t know where Bryson gets off saying PxP is a Trojan horse. Maybe someone can enlighten me?

    Honestly, the entire letter seems to be written by a paranoid man, more suitable as a FB rant to his closest friends, not a letter sent out to all CCSPs. His Alex quotes are laughable.

    Just saying.

  30. Kathy says:

    So… I’m a little curious… is PxP pro-Broderson?

    Maybe that’s what I’m not getting.. I’m missing a big piece of the puzzle that everyone else agrees/knows about.

    Broderson is a Trojan horse? Gee Whiskeys… how long has that man been there? If he’s a Trojan horse, then he’s been in that horse for a long time.

    I’m not pro-Broderson, I’m neutral-Broderson, but as a dumb sheep, I always thought CCCM would go to him. It just seems logical.

    Discuss.

  31. Andrew says:

    Who will lead Calvary is the question asked of Chuck Smith. Well his answer was he believes its a plurality of leaders submitting to Jesus. My question to Chuck is how come he never acted this way in all the years of his ministry? To this day he is still asserting his authority as if he was Jesus Christ himself. Just seeing the standing ovation for Chuck to me just came across as Chuck worship. The fact that only now Costa Mesa has to separate itself from the rest of the movement is very telling. I thought all the Calvary’s were 100% independent so what is the plurality of leadership have to do with anything if you have your own Moses Model church where you are only responsible to God and no one else? And when Calvary speaks of this movement, I really thought movements spanned more than one group. It is obvious that Calvary for the last few decades has been their own isolated group caring nothing what any other church has said. But only now they are trying to build bridges with other churches? Doesn’t sound like a movement to me at all in retrospect. More like an ingrown toe nail that is really starting to hurt now. Time will tell but I don’t think Jesus came back quick enough for some in Calvary Chapel. I think they were banking on Him coming back sooner so they wouldn’t have to clean up the mess they made.

  32. Michael says:

    Kathy,

    I don’t know Brian, and in earlier years I toasted him for some stuff…ironically, the way he dealt with some missionaries who converted to Calvinism.

    I do like the fact that he seems to be more ecumenical and less divisive.

    On the other hand…it ain’t my call and I’m not ever going to join CC, so I’ll sleep well no matter what. 🙂

  33. Alex says:

    Kathy, I think you have me confused with someone else. No way Bryson was referring to me, it’s got to be someone else. He doesn’t use my name, so I don’t know who it is.

    Bryson said, “A young man, who is known for his anger, offensive
    language and a deep bitterness toward Pastor Chuck (and most things Calvary)”

    Can’t me me. I’m not young. 🙂

  34. Alex says:

    I thought I was known for my good writing, good public speaking and good looks. He’s got to be referring to someone else. 😆

  35. Ixtlan says:

    A Trojan horse is a means by which an enemy from the outside gains access into the city without opposition. A fifth column are those who rise up from within to overthrow what they consider an oppressor. Whether Bryson uses these definitions or not, I do not know. Having read the letter, this has all the descriptions of a power struggle. I wonder where the board @ CCCM is on all this?

  36. Steve Wright says:

    When I showed up at Calvary Chapel (Costa Mesa) the big number was 20. Guys who had been in Calvary for 20 years. Rookies like me, rightfully so, could learn quite a lot from the 20-year guys.

    That was 20 years ago that I showed up. 18 years ago I started my first CC ministry, teaching Sunday services at the Alzheimer’s home at Sunflower Gardens. That would continue for five years and others would be added to it, including overseas missionary work, starting a church from a home Bible study and so forth. Even when I was out of the CC environment, like when I went to seminary and attended a Baptist church, I was the CC guy (even got dinged on a couple assignments for being too ‘Calvary Chapel’ 🙂 )

    Today, those 20-year guys are now 40-year guys. The PROBLEM exists when a 40-year guy thinks the relationship with the 20-year guy is no different than it was back when it was 20 vs. rookie. (That is not an indictment on any particular person, but such men exist)

    So I am totally understood. I am NOT talking about how the more years we walk faithfully with the Lord, serving Him (without scandal), the more we offer those with less experience. I want to learn from guys who have been at this twice as long as I have. (MIchael, I had my own version of Dr. Packer in seminary – dear brother in his 80s who breathed Scripture and walked humbly, devoted to helping equip the saints)

    Assuming they are guys with something to give, because longevity alone doesn’t mean squat and usually the guys who think that years alone mean something have the least to really offer other than some rehashed spiritual bromides.

    What I AM talking about is that 20 years is a career in some services, including the military. 20 years gives one an appreciation of the positives and minuses, gives one a whole lot of experience with a whole lot of different people. Frankly, 20 years should give someone a seat at the table if the table talk is about the movement. If there are large numbers of 40 years guys looking down on others because of only age, then the movement’s future is doomed no matter how much or how little Calvinism shows up.

    So I don’t really know what is meant by a ‘young guy’ when this stuff comes up. Maybe someday I will find out. But if not, like I said earlier, all I really care about is our church – and I enjoy hanging our with like-minded brothers, no matter how long they have been around.

  37. Alex says:

    In honor of George Bryson. What an idiot. I don’t necessarily agree with White, but in terms of Debate and communication and articulating a coherent position…yikes! What a confused dolt. If this a high-ranking CC guy, pretty telling of the low intelligence of that branch of Calvary Chapel. I’m guessing they’d see that as a badge of honor.

    http://youtu.be/QDKlW9o1rnI

    Listening to White and Bryson parse words is more proof of the subjective nature of interpreting the cross-currents and contradictions in the bible.

    If I had to base my faith on this debate, I’d be a Calvinist.

    Bryson should become an Atheist, he’d argue more people into the Kingdom than he’s doing now.

  38. Alex says:

    Steve Wright said, “Rookies like me, rightfully so, could learn quite a lot from the 20-year guys.”

    That’s part of the Problem…Raul Ries, Bryson, BG, etc are the 20 year guys. Hope you aren’t learning too much from the old guard. Yikes.

  39. Alex says:

    Bryson to White: “If I offered you blank money…it wouldn’t be any good”.

    OMGosh! LOL. Makes MLD’s “prosthetic arms” analogy look like MENSA. 😆

  40. Michael says:

    Steve,

    That post contained much of the conversations I’ve had lately with your peers…

  41. Michael says:

    Alex,

    I’ve asked that the insults be left at the door of this thread.
    I obviously have a long and contentious internet relationship with Bryson and it doesn’t need anyone throwing gas on the fire.
    The insults become the focus instead of the substance and I worked too damn hard on this for that to happen.

  42. Andrew says:

    I will say this, Bryson is a really nice guy. I do think he should get right with his daughter at all costs though. Bryson to me is humorous. I find no substantive theological substance to anything he says but I still like the guy. He is just a really likable guy.

  43. pstrmike says:

    Mr. Wright has struck gold.

    “Frankly, 20 years should give someone a seat at the table if the table talk is about the movement. If there are large numbers of 40 years guys looking down on others because of only age, then the movement’s future is doomed no matter how much or how little Calvinism shows up.”

    Exactly. And what I have heard over and over again, is that some in the 40 year club do not understand that they would have greater influence as a peer instead of always attempting to lord over. And they just might learn a thing or two from some of us who don’t have a row of assistants to assign the dirtier tasks of ministry.

    Conversely, there are too many that have not let go of the apron strings and have yet to discover the freedom of being led by the Spirit rather than always looking to “glean” from those who may have done some of this a little longer.

  44. Alex says:

    From the email:

    “A young man, who is known for his anger, offensive
    language and a deep bitterness toward Pastor Chuck (and most things Calvary)
    went so far as to say that this same CCA board/council member:

    …Is the anti-Bryson. He comes across as very intelligent, thoughtful,
    balanced and secure in himself (a quiet confidence). I like him. He comes
    across very well, like he is just looking to be himself and serve the Lord…
    Wow. I… (hate to admit it) I am really liking [this CCA board member].
    …There is freedom to move about the Cabin…That means diversity and
    differences of opinion are to be expected and allowed w/o the Bryson
    Inquisition etc… [This CCA board member] is the one who really stood out,
    IMO, in a good way. CCCM, under his leadership, really isn’t pushing for
    more, more, more… [He] sounds very pastorly and concerned about the
    people at CCCM and the responsible tone he expressed on the “reformed”
    issue was telling (and good).

    How can we explain the fact that someone so unhappy, angry and even bitter with
    pastor Chuck Smith could be so happy with what he thinks this CCA board/council
    member said or did at the conference?”

    To George: How can we explain this? It’s got to be the devil, plain and simple. In fact, the devil specifically told me to make those comments in support of Brodersen to undermine your righteous efforts to cleanse Calvary Chapel. But, your super-Jesus-powers are too strong for me.

    Actually, the reason is that I am outside the bubble and don’t drink the kool aid and while I don’t like CC very much, I see Brodersen as reasonable and much more like Jesus than other potential successors. I think Chuck Jr. was the most like Jesus, but you guys ran him off already.

  45. Alex says:

    If Lonnie Frisbee was still alive, the man who God literally used to start the Jesus Movement revival…you’d run him off, too.

  46. Andrew says:

    pstrmike,

    I am no pastor but I have been a Christian for over 30 years with tons of life experiences, so can I have a seat at the table as well? I was “catapulted” from a CC from one of the younger CC pastors so to me this is not just about the older vs. younger generation. Its also about the clergy vs. laity classification so prevalent in CC.

  47. Alex says:

    I wonder why Bryson is so afraid of a dialogue? I think some of these guys are afraid to look stupid and they fear losing control of a situation.

  48. Kathy says:

    Wait… newbie here… is Alex is being sarcastic or truthful?

    Bryson is referring to Alex when he said, “A young man, who is known for his anger, offensive language and a deep bitterness toward Pastor Chuck” ???

    My question is this: why does something Alex say about Broderson matter (sorry Alex)?

    Bob Grenier, okay, matters a lot. Spiritual accountability, yes, Alex has important things to say. But Broderson??? That’s like me making a blanket statement about Greg Laurie…. it’s one opinion in a sea of opinions.

    Is Bryson trying to rally the troops against Broderson any way he can?

    And he’s using Trojan horse wrong, or it’s not a good analogy in this instance. Michael is not within the organization, he only has access to emails, he is reporting it.

    Unless he meant that Broderson was the Trojan horse???…. bwahahaha. Oh dear… please Jesus, I hope not.

    Anyways… I won’t comment anymore… I’m embarrassed for Bryson. This is not looking good.

  49. Kathy says:

    Oh dear… Alex is going to have a field-day with this.

    Michael, this is really bordering on cruel.

  50. Andrew says:

    Alex,
    Its because most CC pastors are cowards. They will never give anybody but their own affiliated senior pastors a seat at the table. But Jesus gives all who are willing a seat at his table. Yet now the younger generation is wining that the older generation doesn’t give them a seat at the table. For crying out loud, CC pastors, this is not the example Jesus left us.

  51. Michael says:

    Kathy,

    Bryson was referencing the comments that accompanied that article.
    I didn’t move them all over here.

  52. brian says:

    An aside, though I struggle with the pyromaniacs on many issues they give great resources for biblical exegesis and commentary. From the few readings I have had concerning these volumes they present a very well researched view of scripture from an evangelical view. It is expensive but it is a many books. It also offers many “answers” from the evangelical perspective to the many questions covered here. It is not J I Packer level in my opinion because it lacks the “Anglican / Lutheran / liturgical” view to some degree. This view is based on very limited exposure. But it is a fair representation. The authors take seriously that the Bible is the Word of God and they offer reasoned defenses for that point of view. Let me be honest I cant stand Pyromaniacs blog but I am also attracted to it, because they are so sure. So I came to a peace. I think they do what they can do with what they have.

    Pastor Phillips always does thorough book reviews from what I have seen. I think this resource could help some pastors, and maybe Alex it does offer some answers my brother to the questions you ask. I know some good people put in alot of time and prayer in giving their answers. That should count for something.

    http://www.logos.com/product/7565/evangelical-exegetical-commentary

  53. brian says:

    Oh man I wrote a positive post, I hate when I do that, sorry I jumped out of character. 🙂

  54. Alex says:

    Steve W, in response to your much more pastorly comment on the other thread:

    1. I think it was sincere, thank you.

    2. I don’t see it that way, neither do many others who are close to me whose opinions I trust.

    3. BG needs to confess and repent and seek reconciliation independent of my actions or non-actions. He’s the supposed “anointed” CC pastor.

    4. BG (and CC and the donors giving their money to Jesus) can pay BG’s legal bills, and they can (possibly) pay my attorneys if we win in Appeals. It’ll be a very very large number. Probably a quarter mil, maybe more. He brought it on himself. If he somehow wins in Appeals, then it only means we move forward in a defamation suit and we fight more then (and I have some good options in that scenario, thank God for liberal free speech lawyers and organizations who are willing to help me).

  55. Alex says:

    BG could very well be in litigation until the day he croaks, which is fine by me. He picked that route. Plus, there are some others who might be bringing lawsuits against him and CC, board etc. That’s what can happen when you show that sort of example. It’s risky to start down that path.

  56. brian says:

    Alex an aside, if I can come to peace with the team pyro folks and even paul washer, even the folks from my past. I pray that for you Alex, I beg the Divine daily for that for you. No child should ever suffer what you went through, it was wrong, evil, vile and sinful. I have no answer, I am just some heretic standing in the parking lot of the evangelical Colosseum waving his hands saying please heal him. I am being healed through your calls and postings, I did not suffer the abuse, well um never mind. But it was not done by a pastor. God granted me healing by pushing me in a position to having to help my parents because of illness and family situations. This use to tick me off but then I understood I got to be “in the room” when the healing and grace came. Unfortunately it was usually a hospital emergency room but it did come.

    Alex if I could take the mantel of your father and tell you what you should have heard I would, unfortunately God does not seem to work that way. So I will do it in my broken human way. Alex it was wrong but look what you did through the grace of God, you have a family, a life, children and a legacy. I am proud of you Alex, you overcame, you ran the race. Back into brian mode, you have touched me, you ask many of the same questions I have asked and continue to ask. Know this there is not a day that passes that I do not pray for your families healing. It may not happen now but it will, this one hope is the only thing that holds me to the Christian religion or any religion to be honest, and it is the strongest nail by far. Remember to pray for those in Boston if one wishes to view grace incarnate in the face of pure evil may I suggest one looks at what is going on there.

  57. Alex says:

    Thanks brian. I have always heard Jesus in your words, more than most on here.

  58. Alex says:

    If it’s all real, I imagine your faith is more like Jesus than what I see exampled in most of Selective Fundamentalism.

  59. Alex says:

    BG’s not a bankruptcy candidate. They already pre-vetted him. He’s got a big retirement account and donors and the ability to raise money through the church and he still has a big salary.

  60. brian says:

    Jackie I know you read this I dont thing I said this and that bothered me that I did not. I am sorry for the loss you suffered. You and me are as far apart as two people can be theologically. I am sorry for your loss. An aside Dave Hunt did what he could do with what he had. I admire Mr. Hunt for that alone. Now this Jackie I may not greet you at the gate but I want you to make it to the gate. I would call that good news. Again I am sorry for your loss. Its hard, it really is, having been there far to many times. Your husband was a doctor I understand, good on him. Offered for what it is worth. God be with us all, what other hope have we?

  61. brian says:

    sorry Jackie about the last post but my glasses fell apart and being my vision is 20/1000 with out my glasses and my tts test to speech did not work well. Basically I hope it is clear what I am trying to say.

  62. Julie Anne says:

    So I will do it in my broken human way. Alex it was wrong but look what you did through the grace of God, you have a family, a life, children and a legacy. I am proud of you Alex, you overcame, you ran the race.Back into brian mode, you have touched me, you ask many of the same questions I have asked and continue to ask. Know this there is not a day that passes that I do not pray for your families healing. It may not happen now but it will, this one hope is the only thing that holds me to the Christian religion or any religion to be honest, and it is the strongest nail by far.

    Amen to that, Brian. Beautiful. I was very touched when I heard Alex talking about his precious children. You could tell this is a dad who would absolutely die for them – completely reversing the cycle of what was done to him. I can’t fathom that kind of love from a father. You’re right – he does have a legacy.

  63. brian says:

    Can I suggest a project, let us fast for one meal / day considering medical issues for Alex and for Calvary Chapel this weekend. I mean if God is God. I am willing. Pray for healing and restoration. Imagine the power.

  64. Erik says:

    Alex interesting point you should be up Lonnie Frisbee. Lonnie left Calvary and headed to Fl under Bob Mumfords gig. When that failed Lonnie called Chuck from what I understand to have his old job back. And when he did come back, well it wasn’t the same. And Lonnies gift of miracles and healings often led to people falling on the ground, without any manipulation or laying of hands, but the end result would often be the person would get up off the floor genuinely healed. Why do I say all of this? Read further….When Lonnie left CC he handed over his piece of the pie being the majority of all the young converts all to Chuck. Since Chuck didn’t have Lonnies type of ministry but a teacher. Chuck did what he does best, he set up calvary to be reproduction of himself and that being a teacher. So Calvary Chapel began to produce after its own kind of five fold ministry: pastor pastor pastor pastor and pastor. So when Lonnie came back from his rendezvous from Florida. Chuck had total control of the movement wasn’t going to give it back to Lonnie. Right or Wrong its what happened at least im told from Lonnie. But he did get stuck doing a pastoral job during his second tour of duty at CC. Which he hated, and this can is also from Lonnie spoken by Lonnie on a youtube video at Tom Stipes church. Anyways, Lonnie was told that if people began to fall to ground and other manifestations that were common at Calvary in the early days. He would be fired….So thus the problem I see it with calvary even still today. Greg is Lonnies spiritual son and the only visible evangelist who moves in the real office of that ministry. Costa Mesa has a long history of shunning and dismissing gifted people who may have had the office of a prophet like a Lonnie. Who later seemed to have graduated into more apostolic type of anointing and authority. Calvary the way I see wants to do all these things but without the apostles, prophets, evangelists. And because of this, it will turn into another dead denomination like the once Methodist Churches. That during the days of Wesley mighty workings of the Spirit where very common if you read the accounts. Anyways, I know this is the wrong group of brethren who thinks modern day apostles and prophets are mere illusions. But they do exist, even chuck jr’s on video says being around Lonnie was like being around an apostle or what he thought I guess an apostle would be from scripture. And you know what…he might be wrong about many of things but on this thing he is right. If the hand says I don’t need the eye or the mouth etc. Well then u have a very handicapped person.

  65. PP Vet says:

    PP is a much anti-CC as a free press is anti-democracy.

    CC is a great movement. It just happens to be terrified of open and honest dialogue.

  66. PP Vet says:

    Once more without the typo:

    PP is as much anti-CC as a free press is anti-democracy.

    Another thought:

    As a Christian, is there anything more embarrassing than watching Christians fight for influence in a religious organization?

  67. “even chuck jr’s on video says being around Lonnie was like being around an apostle or what he thought I guess an apostle would be from scripture”

    If those guys weren’t all doped out at the time, I would perhaps trust what they said, but…

  68. Bob says:

    Steve

    Your # 36 post about the 20 year guy is a reflection of the what lies deep in the hearts of these men and explains the why of their “calling.”

    What do I mean?

    On the surface many, including myself, want to be called of God and “serve” (CC’s use of “serve” has destroyed the word in my mind) HIs will. However, when the observed model of service is one of absolute control and worship of the leader’s words maybe that calling isn’t so pure.

    Why are the young guys always the young guys? Because there is little if any discipline and structure outside of the “I speak for God” model of CC. If these men (starting at Chuck) had started the system modeled by Jesus there would be different problems today (notice I said different because the best intentions…)..

    I have worked in environments where the development and building up of the next generation of leaders is highly valued and it can work. In general I find the “church” sadly is not one of those. Even with the best of doctrines and theology men’s evil hearts rule and “in the name of God,” or “calling” the simple rule discipleship Jesus demonstrated are largely ignored.

    We live in the time where “every man did was was right in his own eyes.”

    In spite of this, cudos to you Steve for beginning your “calling” in a place where love is needed and found lacking. But ask yourself, “Am I working alongside my leaders or is it a one man show?” And do others see it? I find it important to ask myself these questions every day and the people include the most intimate to me, ranging from my wife to my grandchildren. My behavior is not exempt!

    Respectfully

  69. Kevin H says:

    So let’s recount here: Brodersen is “the CCA board/council member”. Michael is “the anti-Chuck lead blogger”. Alex is “the most anti-Chuck and anti-Calvary blogger”. Somebody else is “a Reformed-leaning CC Senior pastor.” Others get titles, too.

    Boy, I’ve got to start posting more here so I too can be quoted and get a title in one of Bryson’s emails and join the infamy. Maybe I could be “the subversive Calvary attendee”, or something like that because I will at times call out as wrong those things that I think are wrong within Calvary Chapel. Oh, and even though I am no Calvinist, I do also like people like Tim Keller and Alistair Begg and others. I even like Michael a little bit. 😛 8) 😀 😈 :mrgreen:

    (I’m hoping the overload of smilies draws George’s attention to my post!) 🙂

  70. Kevin H says:

    Uh-oh. The smilie with the shaded glasses didn’t come through right. I have failed. 🙂

  71. Reuben says:

    I read Bryson’s letter, and I get two distinct impressions. I do this while attempting to separate myself from what I already know of Bryson. I admit, that is hard.

    1) Idolizing the movement.
    2) Idolizing the man.

    Calvary Chapel became monolithic in the minds of those who seek to lay claim to the foundation. So those men are already dead, in my not so humble opinion. That includes Bryson. Blinded by the idea that this has anything at all to do with Calvinism, or an attack on the “distinctives”, this is some sort of deep rooted psychological issue that finds its seed in blatant idolatry.

    As Alex sort of hit on, Lonnie was more responsible for CC than Chuck. In hindsight, the movement was doomed from his departure. The man that took over was motivated by rebellion from the first page of CC’s history. That DNA replicated, and what we have today is nothing like what was envisioned by the founders. CC breeds sectarianism and pride, and it does so in a system of willful ignorance, blocking off any voice that disagrees with the words of the “Holy Father” Chuck.

    This childish attempt at removing any name from his (George’s) rant but the Holy Fathers (Chuck’s), is again indicative of the reality that we are not dealing with mental stability here. I understand he has issues behind the scenes. Issues he has not dealt with.

    We talked recently about who we would take communion with, or who we would not. I can say that the list is very short.

    So then, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord.

    Everyone ought to examine themselves before they eat of the bread and drink from the cup.

    For those who eat and drink without discerning the body of Christ eat and drink judgment on themselves.

    That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep.

    But if we were more discerning with regard to ourselves, we would not come under such judgment.

  72. Bob,
    “On the surface many, including myself, want to be called of God and “serve” (CC’s use of “serve” has destroyed the word in my mind) HIs will. However, when the observed model of service is one of absolute control and worship of the leader’s words maybe that calling isn’t so pure. ”

    Bob, you sure do have that typical evangelical stinking thinking don’t you?
    What do I mean? 🙂

    You think you are ONLY called of God and to serve God’s will if you are in some formal ministry. LOL – how dopey.
    A Christian knows that he is called of God and to serve God’s will where he is placed – it is called vocation.Today, I will go to work, where I have been called of God to serve him, how? by being a good employee and to provide services to my neighbor, so that he can go out and fulfill his vocation and down the line.

    So, don’t blame CC, God or anyone else – it’s your fault if you feel hindered “to be called of God” Besides, there are enough pastors running around loose.

  73. It was posted…
    “even chuck jr’s on video says being around Lonnie was like being around an apostle or what he thought I guess an apostle would be from scripture”

    If those guys weren’t all doped out at the time, I would perhaps trust what they said, but…

    For the record, ChuckJr wasn’t “all doped out” in those days, in fact he was far more a strict fundamentalist during tat period of his life.

  74. I was one who criticized the last article, and I’ll stand by that. I thought it was poorly written, open to speculation, and generally unhelpful.

    Clearly, Bryson has vindicated you, and one-upped you in each of those categories.

    A few general comments, because I don’t know much about CC (and don’t plan on learning)

    1: Who are the sissies that keep fwd’ing you these letters? Why don’t they fight there own battles? I’ll tell you why. Easier to let you take the bullets, and still hope to get the results they desire. They are cowards and should be ashamed.

    2.: I believe Bryson when he says this is about Calvinism. He is clearly terrified of it.

    3: The future is bright for Calvary Chapel. Uncertain does not mean unfruitful. God’s in control and there are many in that movement yielded to Him. That formula will never fail.

  75. Andrew says:

    MLD @72

    Well said about Bob. Bob really annoys me. He is probably one of the biggest culprits when it comes to the separation of clergy from laity. Its not about the new generation. It is about including the rest of the body of Christ at the table instead of catapulting them into the next town when you don’t like them.

  76. Bob says:

    MLD & Andrew

    “Bob, you sure do have that typical evangelical stinking thinking don’t you?
    What do I mean? 🙂

    You think you are ONLY called of God and to serve God’s will if you are in some formal ministry. LOL – how dopey.
    A Christian knows that he is called of God and to serve God’s will where he is placed – it is called vocation.Today, I will go to work, where I have been called of God to serve him, how? by being a good employee and to provide services to my neighbor, so that he can go out and fulfill his vocation and down the line.

    So, don’t blame CC, God or anyone else – it’s your fault if you feel hindered “to be called of God” Besides, there are enough pastors running around loose.”

    What an ass both of you are!

    And Michael I’m sorry to say such a word

    To both of you:

    When did I ever say I was the ONLY called of God?
    When did I say some “formal” ministry?
    When did I say anything about not being called where one is placed?
    When did I say people weren’t to be a “good” employee?

    MLD you are cursed by your “stinking thinking” of your own. Rather than blame things on evangelical look at yourself and your heart. Mine knows what evil lies within me, your comment reflects the worse in people.

    You assumed too much and both of you become asses.

    And if you didn’t notice my comment was about CC and the thread’s topic of control and leadership. So what is yours about?

    Now I know why people run from PP almost as much as they have from some CCs, it’s men like you two (not Michael)! Oh and MLD you have done more to turn me away from Lutheranism than any one person or argument, put that in your cap.

    Michael I’m sorry for my evil post, I guess I will get moderated.
    And Reuben, this is me getting mad, sorry.

  77. Andrew says:

    I guess we hit a raw nerve with Bob. Maybe Bob should think long and hard about those “catapulted” from the CC system by arrogant CC pastors who could give a hoot about the rest of the body but only official ministry that they are “called” to is all that matters. When do the rest of the CC members get a seat at the table Bob? Or is it only your fellow peers now that get a seat at the table? Sorry if I assumed you were a CC pastor. You sure come across as a typical one.

  78. CrucifiED says:

    Once again, even though there were many reasons, this is the main reason I shut down my small CC church.

    I joined CC many years ago as I was impressed by these less-than-slick pastors who spoke the truth that the legalistic churches I had grown up with tried to avoid. These men said what they meant and meant what they said. Or so I thought because it didn’t take long before I wasn’t able to make sense of anything these men said.

    The entire time I was a part of CC, right from the beginning, one of the first things I learned was that the instructions we were given by pastors in leadership meetings and pastor’s conferences were the very rules that could get you in trouble if you applied them.

    I was impressed in the beginning with all of the talk from CC pastors of being transparent and open and honest but in the end left discouraged realizing all of that was just talk. Not only did I not witness the transparency they preached we should have, I witnessed an unwillingness to be transparent as pastors who were dealing with growing problems in CC scolded other pastors for asking simple questions about our problems.

  79. Nonnie says:

    I wonder what kind of difference it would make is Pastor Chuck would just speak up and let people know what he really would like to see in CC after his passing. I think there are a lot of people who would seek to honour his request, and much of this infighting would cease.

  80. Kevin H says:

    Nonnie,

    I had similar thoughts after reading Bryson’s letter. Chuck could put an end to a lot of this nonsense, but he chooses not to do so. I don’t know why he doesn’t and I won’t speculate right here. But it is strange that Bryson can keep writing letters like this to all the other CC pastors complaining about, amongst other things, Chuck’s own son-in-law and co-pastor of his church without any apparent inclination by Chuck to step in and resolve things.

  81. Michael says:

    Bob,

    It’s all good.
    You’re growing on me. 🙂

  82. Steve Wright says:

    Your # 36 post about the 20 year guy is a reflection of the what lies deep in the hearts of these men and explains the why of their “calling.”…..However, when the observed model of service is one of absolute control and worship of the leader’s words maybe that calling isn’t so pure.
    ————————————————
    Bob…your #68….was that directed at me?

  83. Andrew says:

    Michael,

    In all due respects its not all good. I was just called an ass because I pointed out something that Bob said.

    Bob also said

    “Mine knows what evil lies within me”. He was speaking about his heart.

    But I bet you dollars to donuts Bob is one of these leader types that probably thinks God searched “to and fro” from the ends of the earth to find someone that’s heart was loyal to him. Maybe I am wrong, but I got a strong hunch I am not.

  84. Bob says:

    Steve:

    Yes I was pointing to your post. I am in complete sympathy to the issue you brought up.

    I have had the opportunity to both be “brought up/mentored” and to do the same for the next generation of leaders in both the civilian and the church world. I have met men who modeled the heart of not keeping young men newbies, but bring them up and standing along side of them as equals.

    I mentioned how, at least in my heart, there lies an evil which doesn’t want to see the “new guys” become the old guys and stay in control to the bitter end. I also find this evil goes very deep and as near as my very home life. How I treat my wife, children and grandchildren is as important as what I do in public. My wife mentors me and molds me more than any person in this world. She sees and hears the best and the worst in me, so why wouldn’t I listen to her?

    These people (my family) need to become the old guys and leaders in their circles of life.

    Oh and I confess in my rage to MLD and Andrew I forgot to a Lutheran the term “call” has a different meaning than in the “evangelical” church MLD slathers such loathing over. If you hang out with Lutherans you will hear it being used often and quite frankly, not in necessarily bad way, just different.

    Steve, I’m with you and fully understand and that is why we need to make the change and not rely on Chuck or anyone else to do it for us.

  85. Michael says:

    Andrew,

    You’re angry.
    I’m not sure what you’re angry about, but you took the first shot at Bob with your accusation.

  86. Scott2 says:

    It’s sad to watch men with their kingdoms and their power play politics with other lesser or greater men with their kingdoms and power. But this seems to be the American way of doing church.

  87. Scott2 says:

    Nonnie: On #79–he who speaks last controls the power. It’s the basics of every good sales negotiation.

  88. Andrew says:

    Michael,
    I believe Bob is my ex pastor that “catapulted” me from his CC never to be heard of again until I found this blog. Maybe I am wrong but That is why I am angry. Do you need to see the heartless letter from his attorney to me?

  89. Alex says:

    Andrew said, “Do you need to see the heartless letter from his attorney to me?”

    Can I publish it?

    Calvary Chapel is very unforgiving and they don’t “let it go” and “leave it to the Lord”…that advice is for the sucker sheep, not for them. When they are offended, they want blood and sick their Lawyers on folks. It’s a Distinctive.

  90. Andrew says:

    Alex,

    Someday maybe but not right now. I need to protect my family.

  91. Steve Wright says:

    . He is probably one of the biggest culprits when it comes to the separation of clergy from laity.
    ————————————————-
    Andrew, unless you posted in the past under a different name, you likely do not realize that a major emphasis of this particular blog was to break down the separation you speak of. To get both sides to hear each other’s view and challenges.

    And Michael was quite successful at that for a significant season of time. However, there does seem to be a serious reversal to have taken place more recently towards that goal.

    Even as you criticize this separation, I see nothing in your posts that would aid in breaking it down. “Whining cowards” is not exactly the best way to aid communication or build bridges.

  92. Michael says:

    Andrew,

    Did you send it to me?

  93. Alex says:

    If “Bob” is Bob Coy, I’d invite you “Bob’ to be like Bob Caldwell of CC Boise and try and make peace with Andrew. If it’s all real, then that seems to be the Jesus thing to do.

    But, that’s the tough thing to do and there’s all sorts of loopholes and long explanations etc to avoid acting how Jesus would in a similar situation.

    …Unless you’re modeling Jesus of the OT who kills His enemies and Jesus of Revelation who slaughters His enemies as well.

    I take you more as a Gahndi NT Jesus guy vs. the Raul Ries OT Jesus guy.

  94. Bob says:

    Andrew:

    “But I bet you dollars to donuts Bob is one of these leader types that probably thinks God searched “to and fro” from the ends of the earth to find someone that’s heart was loyal to him. Maybe I am wrong, but I got a strong hunch I am not.”

    You’re totally wrong and applying your circumstances and heart to something out of place. I don’t know why your hurt or why you were cast out.

    God chooses those whom I would never guess.

    And yes my heart is full of evil and that is why I need Jesus as my Messiah.

    I repent more than you might imagine.

    And MLD’s comment was typical of him and yes I believe what I said about him and such thoughts are sin.

    I’ve got to go and work.

  95. Andrew says:

    Bob,

    Please accept my apologies if you are not the Bob I thought you were. Maybe you would like to go on the record and state you position, full name and location and we can verify?

  96. Bob Sweat says:

    A tough day to be a “Bob” around here.

  97. Let’s not out another guy, OK?

    He’s not the same Bob, take his word and move on. Andrew, you already said there were certain things you were holding back to protect your family. I respect that. We should respect that right for others as well.

  98. Corby says:

    It’s been a while since I’ve posted here, but this is an area that I can’t let pass. This is the discrepancy that I see. There is a huge difference between building bridges of relationship and even partnership in some areas with those in the Reformed camp, and embracing, promoting, and teaching Reformed theology in the movement and/or individual CC church.

    I for one, was stoked as I sat and listened in person to the session posted above from the CCSPC. The publicly promoted freedom to chew on the meat and spit out the bones while dining with those outside the camp was exciting. In no way did that communicate “CC is going Reformed.”

    The disconnect I see in George’s writing is the one-to-one relationship, connection, whatever, that there are entities that are trying to change the theology and the direction of CC. I just don’t see anyone trying to change the theology of the movement. I think of myself as well connected, observant, and in-the-know. No one that I’m aware of is trying to re-write the CC statement of faith. Some are, however, trying to plan for the future, which requires change, which I publicly and loudly applaud. The nature of the movement has changed from 100 guys to over 1,000 guys. That requires a change in structure and relationships, just like a church going from small to large would/does.

    I’m not trying to prop up the old status quo. I’m trying to build on the good parts of the foundation of those who have come before me (theology being a cornerstone for me). I’m not a Distinctives Die-Hard Dogmatists (alliteration!). But there are some key and wonderful things about CC that keep the movement moving that can be made even better. That’s what I want to see.

  99. Alex says:

    If CC listened to more guys like Corby, and embraced that sort of responsible attitude, things would go a lot better and the Brand would flourish (assuming better accountability and better care of folks who have beefs in the System).

  100. Michael says:

    Corby,

    Well said…thank you for coming by.

  101. Andrew says:

    “He’s not the same Bob, take his word and move on”.

    If you say so. Hopefully someday I can build some trust with Michael and I will send him my letter. At that point I will let Michael put the pieces together. Sound good?

  102. Alex says:

    Michael won’t publish it Andrew, he’s too afraid of being sued.

  103. Nonnie says:

    Corby, As I understood it, the “trouble” is NOT about CC becoming Reformed, (I don’t think there are many wanting that) but about a power struggle within the Smith family for CC power after CS goes to glory. Maybe I misunderstood??

  104. Nonnie says:

    Oh, and great to see you here again, Corby!!

  105. Andrew says:

    Alex,
    The only person who would sue Michael would be me if he posts it. I don’t have it in me to sue anybody. This is what absolutely disgusts me about CC.

  106. It’s all good with me, Andrew, but you don’t owe me anything. I enjoy interacting with you here just as it is. I respect your need for privacy in some areas, and can discuss other things with you,. no problem.

  107. Papias says:

    Alex….sheesh… 🙁

  108. Alex says:

    Papias, it wasn’t a knock on Michael, it’s a comment on the chill in the air due to the litigious Calvary Chapel. I don’t blame him for being very careful, CC is looking to sue folks who they feel get out of line.

  109. Steve Wright says:

    Great word, Corby.

  110. Alex says:

    I think Michael’s a Sage who’s been right all along. There will be no “reform” in CC (not Reformed reform, but common sense being more honest, more accountable, more gracious, more ecumenical reform).

    The reasonable guys like Corby, Stupar, Fusco and many many others will coalesce when Chuck croaks, and the Mexican Mafia and the KGB (Kooky George Bryson) will form an alliance and there will be a monumental rift and split.

  111. Frosted Flake says:

    One of the simplest truths to understand about the leadership void in CC is that Chuck has not raised up leadership to take his place. Sooooo….There is no one to take his place, leaving fertile ground for the Smith family feud. It would make a great reality show if it weren’t so sad and hurtful to so many.

  112. Corby says:

    Nonnie – thanks. 🙂 That’s where it gets blurry and the conversation becomes muddled. It appears to me that there is a pseudo-wedge that has been created, namely people are trying to change CC doctrine and direction (to which I would say direction yes doctrine no), and this pseudo-wedge is what is being used to drive the division to which you refer, which is it’s own issue to which I’m in no position to speak. I have a dog in the CC/Reformed ring because I am a CC. I don’t/can’t have a dog in the leadership ring because I’m just not a part of that very small group.

  113. PP Vet says:

    For the record, I am as hard on MLD as anybody, but I have never ever seen him slather.

  114. Alex says:

    Frosted Flake, LOL. It would make a GREAT reality show!!!!

    Chuck Dynasty 😆

  115. Alex says:

    …instead of long hair, long beards and camo, it could be bald heads and Tommy Bahamas.

  116. Nonnie says:

    Corby, Yes!! Pseudo-wedge and change direction rather than doctrine. Yes, I think you have hit the nail on the head. Excellent!! I think many in the CC circles are looking for a change in direction where CC doesn’t stand for building walls and an attitude of “us against them,” but rather, building bridges, whilst staying to true to what we believe the Scriptures to say. I’m excited about you “young bucks” that are coming up in CC leadership!

  117. Frosted Flake says:

    Hold the presses, I actually agree with something Alex has said. George is highlighting the edges of the fractures to come. He is contributing to the splits by identifying the different streams of ministry philosophy that exist in CC. Maybe we need to thank him……..or not.

  118. Alex says:

    Nonnie said, “I’m excited about you “young bucks” that are coming up in CC leadership!”

    Yes, time has a way of cleansing bad situations. History shows that sometimes. Common sense reforms by attrition…one croak at a time.

  119. Alex says:

    Somewhere, someone updated their Prophecy Chart…Frosted Flake and I agreed on something 🙂

  120. Frosted Flake says:

    Alex,
    I never thought I would share a laugh with you but it has happened. “Chuck Dynasty” that is hilarious. I never miss an episode of the Duck guys.

  121. Bob,
    I was just commenting on your opening statement;
    “On the surface many, including myself, want to be called of God and “serve””

    I was just pointing out that you are “called” and that CC’s definition of “serve” should not impact that call.

  122. Solomon Rodriguez says:

    Seriously, people give these guys way too much credit. Besides being dreadfully boring in the pulpit Broderson is ecumenical to the bone and embraces the Pope and the false Catholic Church. Chuck is well Chuck. Bryson, don’t know and don’t care. These men are not leaders in the Body of Christ, they are only leaders in their World which is the non profit $$$$$ organization nkown as Clavary Chapel.

  123. Solomon Rodriguez says:

    Again this all has to do with $$$$$$$$$$$$$$

  124. Bob Sweat says:

    >>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<

  125. olivia says:

    Erik,
    I have never posted on this blog, and seldom read, something about the ‘spirit of it’, but what you said was so good and so right on…. imo.

    Five fold ministry..pastor pastor pastor pastor and pastor, LOL, that is so true!!!

  126. Bob says:

    Andrew

    I like the anonymous aspects Michael provides us. I also accept being “called” out, I will give you this, I was a full fledged credentialed A of G pastor who had a run in with a CC pastor who brought devastation to many lives in our town. I found PP because CC is an allusive organization and Michael has the resources about them.

    I am no longer an A of G pastor because I continued my education and can not agree with their 16 Fundamental Truths in their entirety. Additionally I believe they have allowed a number of really bad teachings to grow in their churches. However, they have a leadership structure and mentoring program which is far superior to CCs in spite of the junk. I do pastor a small fellowship of, believe it or not, ex CC, A of G and other denoms and we are emphasis is on worship, study and living a life as lights.

    I am very sorry about your experiences with thiis pastor and hope you find friends who love God and Jesus our Messiah and walk together with you, something an anonymous blog or electronic pastor can’t do.

    And I do believe in fighting the evil man and living holiness, which is an everyday struggle for me. Thank God greater is He…

  127. Frosted Flake says:

    Corby,
    George brings the “straw man” argument to new heights and I believe the man to be partly delusional. For that I feel compassion for him, really. I too know of no one trying to change the theology of CC. GB is kind of a “man without a country” with no definable ministry and like his predecessor Don Quixote, his “cause” gives him a sense of purpose and pride. The problem is that the rest of us fall victim to his misplaced passion. I know that is a strong opinion but somebody opened the barn doors and let the honesty out.

  128. Alex says:

    Frosted Flake, we LOVE Duck Dynasty in my home. We watch all the time. Such a good, funny and wholesome show. Our kids love it. Good to see such a positive show be so popular.

  129. Motl the Tailor says:

    I think George needs to parse this monolgue and lighten up.

    http://youtu.be/SD5AiDxqOKk

  130. Frosted Flake says:

    Alex,
    Phil made an issue with A&E about that closing prayer segment in each episode.
    I’m glad he won.

  131. covered says:

    You guys make my happy, happy, happy!

  132. Frosted Flake says:

    Covered,
    The DD code is at work. Another proud fan of my favorite “Rednecks.”

  133. Andrew says:

    Bob,
    I will give you this. I used to attend an A & G church and in fact was baptized there. I couldn’t agree with them either on some teachings. So I guess we may be bound (at least in blog land) by a freak unfortunate misunderstanding.

    My concern seemed to escalate when I saw your affinity towards Steve Wright who is a CC pastor. Steve just wrote this about me:

    “Even as you criticize this separation, I see nothing in your posts that would aid in breaking it down. “Whining cowards” is not exactly the best way to aid communication or build bridges.”

    Steve is one of these CC pastors that seems to be a good guy pastor but when Alex pressed him in the past about the function and purpose of CCOF Steve was completely off base. For this reason it is hard for me to trust Steve when he has failed to acknowledge that CCOF was touted as the enforcement arm of Calvary Chapel. Alex, I am sure can elaborate more but that is where my feelings are coming from. Sorry again. And Steve feel free to chime in if I have mis-categorized this disagreement you had with Alex.

  134. Steve Wright says:

    Steve feel free to chime in if I have mis-categorized this disagreement you had with Alex.
    ——————————————
    You have miscategorized the disagreement and my point about agency was more than proven correct – (and there is even a post at the other blog that says so.)

    But as I wrote yesterday, that is all in the past.

    I have stopped any attempts at educating people about the CC relationship I have been a part of for 20 years, when they insist I don’t know what I am talking about.

    I’m sorry that you actually were ‘concerned’ because some poster (Bob) showed affinity to a (gasp) CC pastor and it led you to make false assumptions about that poster.

    However, it further illustrates the challenge Michael faces at his blog in breaking down the wall of separation between pastor and congregant. If a poster gets trashed for showing affinity to a pastor’s comment somewhere, that is quite an uphill climb going forward.

    Andrew, you have made it clear in many posts I’ve read of yours that CC pastors are wolves, running a cult, and cowardly wolves at that. Even here you write “Steve…seems to be” – otherwise known as damning with faint praise.

    You are entitled to your opinions, and I am sorry you had a terrible CC experience with some pastor that shares the same affiliation and it has hardened your judgement on 1000 other strangers you have never met. But only God can change your heart on that – certainly not any words I type here.

    Blessings to you.

  135. Andrew says:

    Steve,

    I have read plenty of your comments and your comment above is what I am talking about. When you say everything is all in the past you are completely wrong.

    “If a poster gets trashed for showing affinity to a pastor’s comment somewhere, that is quite an uphill climb going forward.”

    Steve, try getting trashed in real life and “catapulted” into the neighboring state by a CC pastor and let me know how you feel. Try getting sued by your dad a well known CC pastor after exposing horrible abuse growing up and let me know how you feel? Try having a fatwa brought down by PC from the Costa Mesa pulpit on you and let me know how you feel? This is what needs to be talked about but you go on about how the older guys aren’t letting the younger guys do ministry the way you want. I am asking you to change focus. Its not about the older vs. the younger. This is not the problem in CC. It is a separation of clergy and laity attitude that can only be corrected by those holding the power. This is you as one of the pastors. I am asking you to quit blaming the 40 year guys and start looking at your self.

  136. Michael says:

    Andrew,

    There IS a clergy/laity distinction.
    It’s biblical.
    Because something has been abused doesn’t mean it isn’t valid.

  137. Michael says:

    Furthermore…this post and Steve’s response don’t have any bearing on your situation…and it is beyond me why you think they should.

  138. Andrew says:

    Michael,

    I believe in the priesthood of the believer. Maybe there is a “distinction” but certainly not a “separation” as some may like to think. Catapulting someone into the neighboring state because you challenge the pastor or the pastor’s vision is not godly or biblical at all.

  139. Steve Wright says:

    Andrew, let’s get a little clarity.

    1) My saying “In the past” was solely a reference to public discussions/debates with Alex on this blog. I have invited him to email me privately anytime he wants. (Same invite for you too). You asked me to clarify an old debate, and I decline to rehash all that.

    2) Nowhere did I even hint that somehow anyone (older guy or otherwise) were not letting me do ministry the way I want. (Or more appropriately the way our church wants) When I read those sorts of conclusions and subsequent complaints, it does make it harder to listen to your other remarks because this one is so off base and nobody else reading what I wrote would come to that conclusion. My comment (and this entire blog post of Michael’s) was about the future of the movement I have been a part of for awhile – and whether guys like me might have some input on that future. As was stated, my only chief concern though is overseeing our church.

    3) At our place people regularly call me, Steve, we hang out before and after services, the leaders of various ministries have almost total autonomy, and they know how to fire me if the need arises. I like to hang out here too.

    Peace.

  140. Andrew says:

    Steve,

    I give you credit for hanging out here and dialoging. But please answer me on this, why don’t I get a seat at the table to discuss the future of the movement? At least I haven’t seen you concerned for those other than pastors having an input on the movement. How come only pastors are given the right to have input into the movement? I have also been part of the movement. Why don’t I have some input into the future? I hear that you would like to have more input. I hear that you think the 40 year guys should be willing to hear input from the 20 year guys, right? Can the non member members have any input at all? Can the guy that was catapulted out of the church have any input on the movement?

  141. Michael says:

    Andrew,

    I believe that something unjust and ungodly happened to you.
    Steve didn’t do it.
    One of the newer problems here is that people that have suffered want to dialog with pastors…then when dialog starts the pastors get trashed and go away.
    So much for dialog.
    This Calvinists best friends and comrades in ministry are CC.
    My pastor (who is also my sons pastor) is CC
    Change only comes through building bridges and meeting people half way…throwing rocks at each other from opposite sides of the canyon just wastes rocks.

  142. Andrew,
    “Catapulting someone into the neighboring state because you challenge the pastor ”

    What the heck does that mean – “Catapulting” – the very most a pastor can do is ask you to leave. Are you a baby because you had a disagreement and were asked to leave.

    How dare them!!

  143. Andrew says:

    Michael,

    Thank you for validating my feelings. I agree that throwing rocks is not good at bridge building but it seems either the CC clergy is the rock (stonewalling) or they turn you into the rock (catapulting) you into oblivion. I have tried and tired with a great deal of patience for years to have a sit down meeting but the stonewalling is greater than ever. The bridge can not be made by those who are victims it can only be done by those in power. I am a nobody in the system.

  144. Andrew says:

    MLD,

    Its actually worse. They never sent me their letter. I received it years later from the regional pastor when I tried to explain the problem. What they did was just call the police when I showed up at a Bible study. I was there for fellowship and Bible study and thought I was welcome. But the letter I got years later said they would call law enforcement if I ever went to any fellowship at all. They purposefully never sent me the terms of my excommunication hoping that I would get arrested. The regional pastor tried to help and asked me to send them note if I was allowed to go to any Christian church anywhere. They still have not replied to this day.

  145. Steve Wright says:

    But please answer me on this, why don’t I get a seat at the table to discuss the future of the movement?
    ————————————————————————-
    You mean besides the fact you think we are all cults and you have no current involvement with CC? 🙂

    (I’ll assume you ask in the general sense of the average congregant)

    Andrew, this is old ground that I assume you know, but I will say it anyway.

    Calvary Chapel “the movement” IN THIS DISCUSSION is about like-minded pastors and the issue in all this Bryson material is about who should be and should not be an affiliated pastor – and even that issue seems to be focused on Calvinist theology.

    The churches themselves are independent. Our church is on a list of Calvary Chapels because I am an affiliated CC pastor. If I was not, our church would continue on as is. That very thing happened recently with our sister church here in the area. They just are no longer listed on the CC list. Same pastor, same church, same people, same assets, everything continues on.

    If I died, quit, was fired, our church could decide to stay a CC by seeking a pastor who would affiliate according to the current guidelines for affiliation. Or, they could decide to not stay affiliated by going a different direction. Nobody from Costa Mesa would show up, take over, against the will of the people of the church.

    That is why so many of us really do not sweat the future of “the movement” – because our individual church’s future is not at stake. Yet, because we pastors don’t want to be a bunch of lone rangers and we do enjoy the fellowship of like-minded pastors, we would like to see things continue and hopefully the new CCA will be a positive force for that continuation.

    If you want to influence an entire denomination as a layman, you will have to pick one that is arranged for that sort of thing. If you want to be an influence to a specific church, then get involved and be an influence. Your influence, in influencing your church and pastor may lead to influence within the whole movement.

    (Or become a CC pastor and show us all how it is done) 🙂

  146. mrtundraman says:

    “So let’s recount here: Brodersen is “the CCA board/council member”. Michael is “the anti-Chuck lead blogger”. Alex is “the most anti-Chuck and anti-Calvary blogger”. Somebody else is “a Reformed-leaning CC Senior pastor.” Others get titles, too.”

    I am feeling left out. There was a day when I was the guy bearing the grudge against Chuck.

  147. Steve Wright says:

    What they did was just call the police when I showed up at a Bible study. I was there for fellowship and Bible study and thought I was welcome.
    ——————————————————————-
    I’m guessing there is a little backstory before we suddenly have cops showing up at Bible studies.

    . But the letter I got years later said they would call law enforcement if I ever went to any fellowship at all.
    ————————————————-
    To be clear, a local CC claimed they would have you arrested if you ever practiced the Christian faith? If you only visited a CC? But didn’t tell you why? And you have no idea what any of this was all about – not even what their allegations are?

  148. Andrew says:

    Steve,

    I believe a movement spans across denominational lines. But for some reason, Calvary Chapel likes to call their denomination a movement. Its not.

    And for starters what kind of got me thrown out of Calvary to begin with was when I had a group at my house I actually talked about Calvinism. Go read Alex’s blog on being a “narc for Jesus”. I was highlighted in that article. I think this topic is very pertinent to the discussion.

  149. mrtundraman says:

    “Five fold ministry..pastor pastor pastor pastor and pastor, LOL, that is so true!!!”

    I liked it on first blush, but I think it’s more like Five fold ministry… teacher, teacher, teacher, teacher, teacher.

    I haven’t run into many pastors in CC. Oh, they do have the title… But they don’t pastor…

  150. mrtundraman says:

    “I am sorry you had a terrible CC experience with some pastor that shares the same affiliation and it has hardened your judgement on 1000 other strangers you have never met.”

    How many times have we heard the 1 in a 1000 argument? Enough that I would feel safe at saying it’s more like 1 on 10…

  151. mrtundraman says:

    Andrew wrote “I believe in the priesthood of the believer.”

    What bearing does that have on whether or not there is a clergy/laity distinction?

  152. Bob says:

    Andrew:

    Today when I get a chance, which happens often, to talk about God, life and Jesus with people who don’t go to church at all (maybe except for Easter and Christmas) I eventually get asked, “where do you go to church?” You know what, I hate this question with a passion! Why? Because often times the question isn’t about, “hey I want to go there,” it is about evaluating me and my spirituality or nuttiness. It’s like the one of the questions men ask each other, “what do you do for a living?” A question often designed to size each other up. You see I am saved by God’s grace in Jesus the Messiah and nothing else, not some doctrine of men.

    There are abuses every where and CC is high (actually very high) on my dislike list because of them, but Steve here on PP seems to demonstrate a heart of caring in all his posts. He never settles for an easy answer, holds to what he considers important and never slams other churches. Not bad I would say, even for a CC pastor. 😉

    I really don’t know your situation and this electronic media isn’t the place to actually do anything about it, but I would recommend again you find a friend, some one who won’t blab a thing about your conversations to anyone, and sit down and just talk, After you run out of complaints, hurts and life stuff to talk about spend time reading the scriptures and talk about the stuff you see there. This is what works for my friends and I and keeps us with some resemblance of mental health in a world full of junk.

    I’m sorry for busting your chops and calling any name (MLD not so sure I’m sorry).

    With respect!

  153. Andrew says:

    “To be clear, a local CC claimed they would have you arrested if you ever practiced the Christian faith? If you only visited a CC? But didn’t tell you why? And you have no idea what any of this was all about – not even what their allegations are?”

    Nope, only that I was to submit to the pastor. Nothing else in the letter. No sins other than they accused me of slandering the pastor and told me to submit. I have asked for more clarification but have received none. But right now, I am done corresponding with you Steve. There are big problems in CC that not sure you quite get. I am pretty much a Calvinist and big RC sproul fan and find absolutely no fellowship with CC when I can’t even mention this at all without getting in trouble.

  154. mrtundraman says:

    “If I died, quit, was fired, our church could decide to stay a CC by seeking a pastor who would affiliate according to the current guidelines for affiliation. Or, they could decide to not stay affiliated by going a different direction. Nobody from Costa Mesa would show up, take over, against the will of the people of the church.”

    I hear you but I don’t understand what you mean when you use the phrase “people of the church”. Do you have membership and if you do how will they exercise that membership? Or is the church more of a representative government where the people of the church have their voice though the elders who they didn’t pick in the first place?

    I think it’s just simply the wrong words.

  155. Andrew,
    Not to take anything away from your situation, but wow, you really gotta piss people off to get arrested at church. LOL

    As to your class – my church doesn’t let just anyone teach whatever they want either.

  156. mrtundraman says:

    “I believe a movement spans across denominational lines.”

    I agree and have said the same thing. I am trying to think of a contraction. “The Charismatic Movement” crossed denominational boundaries. Calvary Chapel doesn’t cross denominational boundaries.

    I’m curious if any of the CC folks can explain the use of the phrase.

    “But for some reason, Calvary Chapel likes to call their denomination a movement.”

    Wikipedia has the phrase “new religious movements” which they say:

    A new religious movement (NRM) is a religious community or ethical, spiritual, or philosophical group of modern origins, which has a peripheral place within its nation’s dominant religious culture. NRMs may be novel in origin or they may be part of a wider religion, in which case they will be distinct from pre-existing denominations. Scholars studying the sociology of religion have almost unanimously adopted this term as a neutral alternative to the word cult, which is often considered derogatory

    Is that the sort of movement that CC is?

  157. mrtundraman says:

    MLD “my church doesn’t let just anyone teach whatever they want either.”

    YMMV at other LCMS Lutheran churches.

  158. Steve Wright says:

    . But right now, I am done corresponding with you Steve.
    ——————————————-
    Yeah, that happens once questions start being asked in an attempt to actually get some facts. As long as the entire story is just horrible CC pastors calling the cops on perfectly innocent folks, minding their own business at Bible study….

    I’ve made this offer to others before, Andrew. If you want to share with me privately, you can email me your story and we can converse.

    I take stories of wrongdoing seriously. However, random “My CC pastor was an abusive jerk” without a willingness to actually share names and details don’t go too far…

    Because there are two sides to each story….always.

  159. Andrew says:

    MLD,

    In all do respects I wasn’t teaching a class. It was a remark about what the pastor said in his sermons. It wasn’t an official church group and it was in my own house. Just happened a narc over heard me from the church.

  160. MTM, is YMMV a close relative? 🙂

    I have no idea what YMMV would be.

  161. Steve,
    You know that the CC rant is identical to the Alex rant.
    Complain, question, complain, question (repeat). When a reply comes from a CC guy, there is no response to what is said – it’s just another round of “Complain, question, complain, question (repeat).”

  162. Kathy says:

    Michael: I’m a little concerned. You’ve made some friends with BIG CC guys with this post. Which is ok, by all means Bryson opened himself up to it, but you also did it knowing how much humiliation it would bring.

    But if you’re going to start becoming pro-CC and welcoming this branch of CC pastors with open arms… I’ll advise you not to.

    There’s something special you bring to the faith community, your blog and yourself is truly a church without walls. Other churches say that, but they’re just as steeped in political church bullsh*t as anyone else.

    See… the CC Pastor’s see this… and they want that. But by nature, they cannot have it. The CC system is steeped in secrecy, smoke and mirrors. You are transparent (maybe too much so). The people confide/trust you. Don’t take that away.

    MTM said as an insult that this is a “Christian ghetto” but I’d take it as a compliment. It’s where the weary, mistrusting, battered souls come to be a revived. A “hospital” of sorts.

    Don’t turn it into a rock concert.

    Just my 0.02, from the cheap seats.

  163. mrtundraman says:

    “But right now, I am done corresponding with you Steve.
    ——————————————-
    Yeah, that happens once questions start being asked in an attempt to actually get some facts.”

    Funny. How many times have I had the exact same reply to a CC pastor who won’t talk with me any longer. As soon as I start getting to the meat of a matter they “have ministry to do and don’t need to waste their time any longer”. Or some other similar comment.

  164. mrtundraman says:

    “MTM said as an insult that this is a “Christian ghetto” but I’d take it as a compliment.”

    I can’t imagine how you could have missed the point of what I said by so much…

  165. Kathy says:

    Andrew: You have to take away the idea that churches accept “everyone”. They do NOT accept everyone, they accept law-abiding citizens who tithe well, have advanced degrees and good jobs. They like people who only come Sundays, have no family problems, don’t smell, and don’t bother them the rest of the week.

    Do you fit that profile?

    I’ve read your rants on here and on Alex’s blog and I don’t know what to tell ya. I think your best recourse is a Yelp review. But you got tons of holes in your accusations and theories. If I may be so bold, I’d say you have a few mental issues too.

    Unfortunately the local mega-church cannot help people like you. That is the sorriest sentence ever, unfortunately, it’s true.

  166. Kathy says:

    ““MTM said as an insult that this is a “Christian ghetto” but I’d take it as a compliment.”

    I can’t imagine how you could have missed the point of what I said by so much…”

    Okay, I’ll bite, what did you mean?

  167. mrtundraman says:

    I was using sarcasm. I was ridiculing the idea that this should be allowed to be a Christian ghetto where only happy thoughts are given.

  168. Chile says:

    MLD said,

    “Not to take anything away from your situation, but wow, you really gotta piss people off to get arrested at church.”

    You would think, but I saw people get escorted with guns out the door for less than talking about Calvinism. The order was then given to call the police if the man/woman ever returned. In our CC, everyone knew to never ever darken the doors again if they even suspected the pastor was done with them.

    The pastor was “done with” some for asking questions about his buying a new car every two years, but claiming their wasn’t enough money for the electric bill. The pastor was “done with” a man who gave his wife his bag of chocolates. The pastor was “done with” a man who asked if CC gives out their financials in December, like all the other churches in town do? The pastor was “done with” … oh, you have no idea how long I could go on with this … and I can’t tell you the really pertinent stories because I’m bound to secrecy because the people are so scared of him.

    So when I hear of others who experienced the same type of bullying and strong arm scare tactics, often just because the person wanted to have the conversation that the pastor should have with him, I’m not surprised. I’ve prolly heard of such stories from over 25 CC’s. There’s a problem if it’s replicated even that much.

  169. You know Chile, your stories are always so over dramatized. You try to mak it sound like this poor little old lady was just minding her own business – sitting quietly in her pew praying, when the brutish CC security team showed up, guns drawn and at the pastors orders escorted her out.

    I have been around many churches for many years, half of them the dreaded CCs (CC riverside, CCCM, and Ocean Hills). Never have I witnessed someone escorted out let alone at gunpoint.

    This gets so ridiculous as everyone tells their stories, they have to “one up” the last guy.

  170. Xenia says:

    The only time I saw someone escorted off the property of a CC was a somewhat deranged man with a serious grudge against the pastor stood up in the middle of the service and began shouting at the pastor. He was shuffled out of the building and actually, rather lovingly treated by some of the men in the church who followed him out.

    I simply don’t believe these gunpoint stories. There’s more to them than is being related here. Sorry.

  171. Jim House says:

    After reading the letter from Bryson the only thing that is notable to me is how
    much he reads the “Lead Blogger” too funny .

  172. Chile says:

    SW said,

    “I take stories of wrongdoing seriously. However, random “My CC pastor was an abusive jerk” without a willingness to actually share names and details don’t go too far…”

    Steve, it would help if after being here for so long that you’d recognize the plethora of stories that people share where there is real fear of revealing names and details because of the underhanded responses from some CC pastors. Lawsuits, using police connections (since some are the chaplains) in their favor against people, destroying careers, dividing marriages, dividing old friends, etc… I’ve seen all of these. None of the people feel safe enough to speak up with names and details. Some can’t help but speak out, yet withhold names and details due to realization of the danger.

    If you think I’m exaggerating, ask Michael.

    I cannot fathom why you would not grasp this after all these years. Are you here only to give info? It would really help if you could hear the cries of the people who are begging for justice, reform, to simply have the problem noted. You are not safe enough to share such info, especially when you have not recognized there is enough of a consistent theme and fear to point clearly to a problem that exists. And when many have trusted others only to have the info then turned over to someone who threw them under a bus.

  173. Chile says:

    Xenia,

    “I simply don’t believe these gunpoint stories.”

    Just because you have not seen them doesn’t mean they aren’t very true! There were a lot at my last church. Some at my first CC. I trust the stories of the many I’ve been told by old friends, family, acquaintances in CC’s all over. I’m not saying they are in every CC, I wouldn’t know, but what I do know is very bad and very wrong and very real.

  174. Chile says:

    MLD, I don’t have a single story about a little old lady minding her own business getting hauled off … you are the one exaggerating. I’ve told the stories and they are absolutely true. Your continued refusal to accept accusations by 2 or 3 people saying the same thing is your problem.

    Remember, just because you have not seen it doesn’t mean it isn’t true. Those of us who have KNOW.

  175. Xenia says:

    There were a lot at my last church. <<<

    How many people did you see with your own eyes who were escorted out of church at gunpoint?

  176. Chile says:

    Kathy, when you said, “I’d say you have a few mental issues too,” ….

    That’s not appropriate. Think about it if it was said about you.

  177. mrtundraman says:

    “The only time I saw someone escorted off the property of a CC was a somewhat deranged man with a serious grudge against the pastor stood up in the middle of the service and began shouting at the pastor.”

    I was escorted off the campus of CCCM. I was not disruptive in the least. I attended a publicly announced “webservants” meeting and told them my name when they went around the room and asked for people’s names and ministries. I was told I was not welcome and they walked me to my car. They watched to see me drive away.

    I had a legitimate reason for being there since I was a part of an officially recognized CCCM ministry and I was their webmaster.

    One of the several people who walked me to the car said that they thought it was unnecessary to make me leave. The other two disagreed.

  178. Xenia says:

    And after the first incident of innocent people being escorted out of the church at gunpoint, why did you remain at that church?

  179. Xenia says:

    MTM, I do remember you telling that story, come to think of it.

  180. Chile says:

    I personally saw about 5. I’ve heard about many more from the people they happened to. To make the point even more, we heard it repeatedly from several on the security team who knew it was wrong, but they didn’t dare cross the pastor. Some of them left and as far as I know are still processing it. None of them will speak out publicly because of how fearful they are.

  181. Xenia says:

    Well Chile, I am quite surprised to hear that you remained at a church that routinely sent people out the door at gunpoint. I have never attended a church where anyone packed heat. I probably never would! But, I’m not calling you a liar, I am just quite surprised. Since you put a concrete number on it, I can’t say you are exaggerating. So, peace!

  182. Chile says:

    Xenia, it was very difficult to process it all. Lots of confusing talk destroying the person’s character which created much smoke and mirrors. It wasn’t until I was thrown out that we were became safe enough for many to talk with us. It didn’t take too long till we had enough people corroborating the events that we then knew we had something to go on. I did take time to ask some still in leadership their take on the situation of a few, and they had very poor answers which bolstered the stories we heard from those involved.

    We did due diligence.

  183. Chile says:

    Xenia, the pastor packs heat.

  184. Xenia says:

    Thanks for the answers, Chile. I am glad you got out of that place. God bless you!

  185. mrtundraman says:

    Xenia. I did leave quietly and didn’t make a stink. I didn’t cause any disruption and even left the CCCM classroom we were in very quietly. The one guy who thought I should stay said that he thought they were making a mistake since they had nothing to hide. I had made Larry Scudder (the leaders of the “webservants”) so he had a personal vendetta against me. I guess he didn’t like it when I called him a webnazi 🙂

  186. Xenia says:

    Xenia, the pastor packs heat.<<<

    That is crazy! I guess my pastor could throw some holy water on a bad guy but Orthodox priests are not even allowed to go hunting w/ rifles. So this is all very strange to me.

  187. Michael says:

    I heard about the situations Chile is referencing months before I ever heard of Chile.
    I heard those from other CC sources.
    Chile is a very credible witness.

  188. Xenia says:

    MTM, I can understand why they would not be thrilled to have you at that meeting. They probably thought you were there to collect behind-the-scenes info which you would put up on your web site. Ummm….. was that what you were planning to do?

  189. Xenia says:

    If I came off as harsh towards Chile it’s just because I find the stories so incredible. My apologies!

  190. Xenia says:

    OK, I guess I will have to retract my “I don’t believe it” comment.

  191. Chile says:

    Xenia, I assure you that I’ve learned many things that I will never do again, or processes I will do for a much shorter time, going forward. But when one is in that environment for a long time, one loses perspective. It’s humiliating to admit.

    Add to that the reality that I was still believing the best about everyone, that if we take enough time and effort we can work anything out. When the pastor told us each week he’d meet with us, but then never did, week after week … we were stupid enough to continue this charade for months on end. I’ll never do that again.

    When we asked the pastor & leaders questions, we expected that they would tell the truth. They lied over and over again, with straight up lies and misleading statements. I’ll never just trust again.

  192. Chile says:

    Thanks, Xenia.

    Thanks, Michael.

  193. Xenia says:

    . It’s humiliating to admit.<<<

    Well, I'm sorry I added to it. Forgive me.

    I generally disbelieve sensational stories. I guess sometimes they turn out to be true.

  194. mrtundraman says:

    Xenia, To tell you the truth, if I wanted to publish a behind-the-scenes story I would have used my middle name or something like that when they asked my name. I was expecting them to throw me out and relished the idea that they would because that would make a more interesting story than any of their behind-the-scenes ever would. Turns out it made a really good story.

    I don’t think that they had anything to hide so I think the one guy was right. The ministry I was part of was under the Missions Pastor Frank “Pancho” Robles and I gave his name out as why I was allowed to be there. Didn’t work for me, though.

  195. Ixtlan says:

    “That is crazy! I guess my pastor could throw some holy water on a bad guy but Orthodox priests are not even allowed to go hunting w/ rifles”

    as that is absolutely crazy to me……

  196. Chile says:

    Xenia, I so wish I could tell the stories of those who were really destroyed. But they asked me not to share due to their ongoing fear. The pastor threatened to ruin careers and actually has the power to do so for some. Others suspect he was behind their not getting jobs.

    Some have been contacted about telling their stories and I hope one day we can name names and details for a host of them, if they will cease fearing man. I am hoping the tide is now turning as they are furious that without any repentance he started a new church.

  197. mrtundraman says:

    I had a job interview a while back where the interviewer was a Christian (Baptist) and he said he had googled me. He told me he was a fan of Greg Laurie and went so far as to ask me my opinion of Greg Laurie. I wondered why I didn’t get the job since I had made it to the very top of the corporation (the guy was the President of the company). The interview seemed to go well and the local VP was fighting hard for me to get the job.

    Speaking out can come with a cost.

  198. Kathy says:

    Chile said : “Kathy, when you said, “I’d say you have a few mental issues too,” ….

    That’s not appropriate. Think about it if it was said about you.”

    Chile, Andrew has stated on Alex’s blog that there are meetings behind close doors at CCCM aimed to destroy Alex’s blog. The means they planned on doing this was with DDOS attacks. When I questioned him further about it, he disappeared.

    What I find kinda humorous is that CCCM really does care what is posted at CCA and PxP. But outside of the occasional rant by Bryson, I doubt they care too much and would never do anything to open themselves up for a lawsuit like that.

    He has posted other fanciful stories, such as being asked to be removed at gunpoint. (which may be true, I believe your story, especially because of your previous work) But Andrew not as much.

    If you’re going to make accusations like that, you gotta come out with the facts, like Nick VanDerLaan, and be ready to post your real name, the actual incident, and what happened. Here’s his story if anyone cares
    http://calvarychapelabuse.com/wordpress/?p=1533

    I don’t know Andrew except what he posts online, but he does have fanciful stories. If he’d put in the time to back it up with his real name, the name of the church and pastor and the details of the actual story, I’d be more inclined to believe him.

  199. mrtundraman says:

    Nick VanDerLaan did violate the law against disrupting a religious service. Not saying it was smart to have him arrested, but CCCM was within their legal rights. They were also smart to drop the charges.

  200. I still doubt the gunslinger stories. i think they are just something that gets continually passed around.

    I have been to so many ballgames with rowdy drunk and disorderly people getting kicked out and never once have I seen the cops do it with their guns drawn.

  201. Chile says:

    MLD, at least you are consistent. You are so focused on defending CC that you can’t hear the truth when we tell first person stories backed by others.

    You have chosen your blindness. Though we don’t know why, it certainly speaks volumes.

  202. Chile says:

    To be clear, one is often removed without the guns in their hands; rather a warning they have them or flash of one before being man handled or pushed. Sometimes it’s just a bully tone, threat, because everyone knows they are armed. It’s very intimidating.

  203. PP Vet says:

    OK, no guns drawn? MLD and I can believe that.

  204. Kathy says:

    “MLD, at least you are consistent. You are so focused on defending CC that you can’t hear the truth when we tell first person stories backed by others.”

    MLD is the Lutheran version of Steve Wright.

  205. Chile says:

    Kathy, I maintain that it’s inappropriate to say someone is mentally ill because of a story such as Andrews.

    Unfortunately, I was present when a person discussing another eschatological view than that of the stated position of the church was. Reprimanded and warned to never speak of it as an attendee of that church again. We were fortunate this man stopped at the warning, others were not so fortunate. That was the moment this man realized he had to leave.

    Andrews story fits with others I’ve heard, as well.

    Andrew may have notions of CCCM that you may not be convinced of based on his description, but that is not enough to malign him with an unprofessional diagnosis.

    I would advise everyone not to give names and details until they are ready for the fallout and beyond the fear of man. I would also advise one not do it unless they think its strategic. That day may come for Andrew, but not by coercion.

    I’ve been warned many times about what could happen to me. I tell people to realize that while they are playing by the rules, the unrepentant pastor is not. Just look at Alex’s attempts to play by the book at first … It just bought the CC side time.

  206. Kathy says:

    Chile: I understand the genuine fear people have speaking out against their pastor. And your Calvary Chapel does sound very ominous. I’m not making light of any of your accusations.

    But there comes a time when facts have to be facts and we cannot believe EVERYONE who tells a story. There are people who enjoy telling fanciful stories. There are those who enjoy trolling websites. I’m not saying that Andrew is either of these things, but if he wants people to take him seriously, he needs to give people reason to believe him, not just disappear when concerned people ask questions.

    And I shouldn’t have said he has mental problems, I should’ve said he may have an affinity toward fanciful stories. And there are people like that. Mental illness is much more serious.

    From his behavior on this blog, it sounds like Andrew is not cut from plain cloth, he sounds a bit eccentric, maybe had some run-ins with people who have no patience for that and rudely asked to leave.

    Unfortunately, this happens a lot and the most unfortunate is there is no viable solution. I say this with a heavy heart, as I’ve seen this myself at my local CC, and I’ve always felt it was unjust.

  207. mrtundraman says:

    MLD isn’t defending CC, really. If this was a pro-CC BLOG he’d be taking the other side and going after CC. He is pretty consistently anti-whatever…

  208. mrtundraman says:

    MLD plays the roll of a sort of stalking horse.

  209. Chile says:

    MLD, the pastor was busy with several women who were not his wife when he thought a man was coming on to his wife by giving her some candy. It was a case of imaging that other people were doing what he was doing. We just didn’t have those facts for another year or so.

    That man was seriously intimidated by men with guns. Everyone knew what was at stake. The pastor even tainted the pool by telling others this man was dangerous.

    The man was never sure exactly why he was being thrown out, but it was too heated with all the security guards hovering. The pastor named this man from the pulpit without ever hearing the man’s side.

    What went on was insane.

  210. erunner says:

    Since the term mentally ill seems to have been used in this thread I’d like to let anyone who might be interested that the National Association for Mental Illness (NAMI) has partnered with the Lifetime channel and made a movie that is airing this Saturday at 8:00PM titled “Call Me Crazy: A Five Film.” It looks to be a very realistic portrayal of mental illness told through five interwoven stories. There’s a preview and a little more information on my blog.

    http://morethancoping.wordpress.com/2013/04/17/call-me-crazy-a-five-film-airs-this-saturday-april-20th-on-lifetime-network/

  211. Chile says:

    MTM, actually I see MLD as anti-whatever former CC people say and always pro- Steve Wright.

    And no matter how much bullying MLD does, Steve always remains silent. But SW is not silent if a former CC person is harsh or repetitive.

    I’d be more inclined towards better dialogue if SW & MLD defended all valid points, cared for those who’ve been hurt, and pushed back on all bullying.

  212. Xenia says:

    I see a difference between being ushered out by “men with guns” and being ushered out “at gunpoint.” Neither is appropriate in a church!

  213. Chile says:

    Kathy, I think the better route would be to ask Andrew questions. His answers will be more enlightening than presumptions.

    None of us has to believe every story we hear, but to vocalize why we don’t believe it requires something solid on which to base that determination.

    We don’t know why people disappear. I have a rule the people take precedence over electronics, so I drop out without warning when they enter my sphere. I also have kids who grab my computer or devices because they need them in a hurry. Andrew could have legitimate reasons.

  214. Chile says:

    Thanks, Erunner.

  215. erunner says:

    Chile, You’re welcome.

  216. Chile says:

    Steve said,

    “I take stories of wrongdoing seriously.”

    Tell us again what you did for Alex?

  217. Bob Sweat says:

    Your all wrong! MLD is the “pot stirrer”

  218. Chile,
    Go back and read the comments in the 170s and 180s – they were all about your comments about people being escorted out with guns drawn. All I did was deny your story that guns were drawn in church.

    But you are so bent on embellishing the story that you seem to have outright lied about it. Xenia asked you directly in her #176 – “How many people did you see with your own eyes who were escorted out of church at gunpoint?” NOTE the “at gunpoint.”

    You replied to the “at gunpoint.”in your #181- “I personally saw about 5.”

    The rest of my comments were about saying this was not true.

    Now you come back and say OK, no gunpoint – just the threat of guns.

    So, back to my original claim – you embellish your stories.

    And then I get accused of being a CC defender, for what now turns out to be opposing your “storytelling” – which is a bullying tactic on it’s q\own..

  219. Chile says:

    I did not see “gunpoint” when I read the post. Maybe I read too fast, but I on my own clarified because it looked like you were embellishing. Sometimes people were shown the guns to intimidate, other times there was a reminder given, and other times it was just plain known and very intimidating.

    The people were intimidated by guns, over and over again. It’s a very serious issue.

    Stick with the issue and forgive me for not seeing “point” and clarifying earlier that I already did without prompting.

  220. Chile says:

    Bob, pot stirrers stir both sides. MLD doesn’t.

  221. Steve Wright says:

    Chile, some clarity

    I have been a part of this blog for about five years, and I read all the archives (and many of the comments) from the prior years before they were lost and/or scrubbed at two of the three (or is it four) shutdowns I have watched.

    I’m sure Michael has lots of emails and has been contacted by many people. Yet, he has done very few articles on individual claims during that time, even anonymously. He has skipped recent articles that have appeared at Alex’s blog which I have seen you heartily defend that he has called without merit (to be kind). Yet, he has not hesitated to write scathing criticisms of CC, both in the past and the present. He has focused on issues of power and money, issues of scandal, issues of controversy when someone says something on the radio or at a conference.

    So I don’t need to “ask Michael” and frankly we communicate regularly offblog.

    Speaking of communication with our host, your 217 directed at me, asking me to rehash the Alex history (2nd time today I’m asked this) again will have me pass saying that my concern for Alex and his soul is more important than those old debates or any new ones. I trust since Alex thanked me for that concern and called it sincere, you won’t argue with him. (Alex, again, my email is always available). Maybe you too will show concern and not use Alex to satisfy your desire to argue.

    But you are free to contact Michael, as you advised me to do, and ask HIM to what extent I took it seriously and for how long.

    As to MLD, again, in five years I have had more arguments with him than even Alex. I notice the “bully” line tossed against him because he dares not join the lynch mob, which makes me question how some of you use that label. I do chuckle when he and MTM are going back and forth and a few folks come over somehow see MLD as the sole bully in such cases like was seen the other day. Selective outrage at its finest. And the flailing seen here with conspiracies like MLD and I are in business together just make you guys even less credible.

    Now, I offered you my email a long time ago. You can ask Michael if I am trustworthy.May I suggest you listen to Kathy at least (not exactly in my fan-club) who wrote:

    there comes a time when facts have to be facts and we cannot believe EVERYONE who tells a story. There are people who enjoy telling fanciful stories. There are those who enjoy trolling websites

    I would add to that there are two sides to each story and a Biblical duty for us to look at both sides PRIOR to judgement. And I would also add it seems unlikely that all these scores and scores of abuse issues and NOBODY is willing to go public because EVERYONE has some psycho pastor who will terrorize them if they dare say anything public about a name or a church – yet they aren’t scared for that psycho to put two and two together with all the details of their story. If you really care about seeing changes you will have to befriend some of us, as Michael has over the years.

    Of course, if you just want to rail, then that is your choice, but I will not, as with Alex, contribute further to the damage to your soul. Railing against an entire group is not a ministry – it is bigotry. Guilt by association.

    I am truly sorry that you admit you no longer trust like you once did – because love believes all things, hopes all things – and to be like Christ is to love.

    So sorry for the length. Feel free to email if you ever desire

  222. Chile,
    You will never find a single post of mine that defends what CC is accused of – and I mean never. If I take a stand at all, it is always about the way the attack and accusation is made.

    I have never defended abusive pastors and here I did not defend “gun toting” pastors. But I do speak out against abusive accusers.

  223. Chile,
    One last thing. You don’t agree with me when I call CC pastors out as child abusers – yet I call 100% of them child abusers.

    They abuse the children under their care because they with hold baptism from the children – they deny the children salvation.

    Chile, will you stand with me in accusing all CC pastors as child abusers? Please?

  224. brian says:

    Had a long post but deleted it, like I often do. You know MLD I actually asked the same question when I knew some people I am involved in were “refused” baptism, by refused I mean well they are “God’s little angels” trump card so they dont need to be baptized. Actually it was because it caused to many complications. Keeping the sacraments from any soul is wrong in my opinion, it seemed to bother Jesus as well, but what does he know.

  225. brian says:

    MLK I got one for you, outside of some aspects of math there are no absolutes, it is a fact there are no moral absolutes. Lets chew on that one for a while.

  226. brian says:

    Im still up going to try to get some sleep, have a nice evening all.

  227. mrtundraman says:

    “I got one for you, outside of some aspects of math there are no absolutes, it is a fact there are no moral absolutes.”

    Is it absolutely true that there are no moral absolutes? IF so then there’s something outside of mathematics which has an absolute, ie, that there are no absolutes. Self-stultifying.

  228. mrtundraman says:

    MLD wrote “You will never find a single post of mine that defends what CC is accused of – and I mean never.”

    Did you mean we will never find a post where you didn’t defend what CC is accused of…

  229. MTM,
    Show me the post where I defend, CC abuse, congregational or child. Show me the post where I defend a CC pastor womanizing or taking off with the money. As I said, if I do anything it is to oppose the abusive accusations.

    Since you will not find one – I will just leave it at… you lie and make false accusations.

  230. I could say I don’t believe Chile’s story. After all, she said she didn’t believe mine.

    She doesn’t seem to bear the marks of one who is scarred…or something like that.

  231. This whole “at gunpoint” issue brings up a point about credibility.

    When the conversation was directly about “at gunpoint” Michael said that Chile spoke the truth because he had heard the same stories of “at gunpoint” before he ever heard of Chile.

    Now that Chile has walked back here “at gunpoint” stories, that will now just revert to hearsay – I wonder who was filling Michael’s ears with just as much crap.

    This is what I fight against (and it may be confused as defending CC) – accusations that grow, become embellished and get passed around by those who have an axe to grind.

    So, someone probably thought this guy had a gun – it got passed around to “he did have a gun” and then passed as “I saw the gun in his waistband.” to “no, he pulled the gun.” to “people were led out at gunpoint.”

    This goes on until “all CC pastors are packing heat and I personally saw them escort people out at gunpoint FIVE times personally.”

    Absolutely no credibility.

  232. I also like the part of “they showed the gun to intimidate” – how is that going to intimidate? What – if I don’t get up and leave right now, “you are going to shoot me right here in the middle of the church service?”

  233. I still want to know why these CC pastors use Michael like a bullet-proof vest. Gotta be the least manly thing, ever. So, here are guys who are afraid to argue with Bryson on their own, but they are shooting their members in the face? Doesn’t add up.

  234. Josh,
    You are right, they are cowards of the first degree and they think they are playing Michael like a cheap banjo.

    Michael on the other hand, has free information to fuel the fires.

    It’s that strange bedfellows thing.

  235. Xenia says:

    The story has morphed from “five people escorted out of church at gunpoint” to “five people were escorted out of church by security guards who had guns on their persons.”

    I retract my retraction.

  236. Andrew says:

    Kathy,

    I didn’t disappear. I went to bed. I gave you the name of the church and pastor. Click on the link in 171 and look at the sermon review. Regarding mental illness I would rather speak of mental health. Calvary Chapel is not a healthy place for anyone mentally. Enough said about that.

  237. Xenia, the story has twisted a few times so it is hard to keep up with, but I think the guards were only rumored to have guns. I don’t think any weapon was ever seen.

  238. Andrew says:

    Kathy wrote, “Andrew: You have to take away the idea that churches accept “everyone”. They do NOT accept everyone, they accept law-abiding citizens who tithe well, have advanced degrees and good jobs. They like people who only come Sundays, have no family problems, don’t smell, and don’t bother them the rest of the week.

    Do you fit that profile? ”

    You really are pathetic. Are you talking about CCs or churches in general or what? For the most part I do fit that profile. I do have an advanced degree, a good job and I am law-abiding with a security clearence. I don’t smell and have no family problems. But I accept those that do. Sorry but you are the one with a severe judgmental problem here.

  239. Andrew, was 911 called as soon as you mentioned Calvin? Did the police even have a clue what that meant?

  240. Andrew says:

    Kathy state “Chile, Andrew has stated on Alex’s blog that there are meetings behind close doors at CCCM aimed to destroy Alex’s blog. The means they planned on doing this was with DDOS attacks. When I questioned him further about it, he disappeared. ”

    I have never been to CCCM. Talking about making up fanciful stories Kathy. You take the cake.

  241. Andrew says:

    Josh,
    I like you dude but its painful to talk about. Basically home group leader called 911 when I showed up at a friends house. By the way, she is still a friend. She is not the one that called the police. I was never a threat to anyone and I was never arrested. I walked away peacefully. And all in the group knew that and have offered their support.

  242. You don’t have to talk about it. Just understand that the little I know leaves more questions than answers. I don’t see why police would need to be called for mentioning Calvin, or why they would even respond to such a call.

  243. Xenia says:

    Chile, exactly how many times did you see, with your own eyes, an actual (not supposed or rumored) firearm used in a threatening way in church? Don’t count “everyone knew the guard had a gun,” I want to know how many times you saw the flashing metal of a gun.

  244. The “at gunpoint” accusations are typical of all accusations made here. It usually turns out that the person passing along the accusation in the end did not actually witness or experience the incident, but because they has one that was similar, well… I thought I would use that story because it sounds better.

  245. Xenia says:

    To clarify even more, how many times did you see an actual gun used in any way against someone in church?

  246. Andrew says:

    Bob said “I’m sorry for busting your chops and calling any name (MLD not so sure I’m sorry).”

    Apology accepted! 🙂 Sorry if I thought you were someone you were not.

  247. Andrew says:

    Josh at 243.

    They didn’t call because I mentioned Calvin. One guy called (home group leader) called because he was instructed to by the senior Moses. It is called chain of command. By the way, this guy actually told me he was a 5 point Calvinist but that is a side issue. But its not the label that matters but the preaching I was hearing coming from the pulpit. Check out the link I posted to get a better idea of my concerns. I had issues with the senior guy for a number of reasons of which one was theology, his preacher and his vision. But what this has to do with going to a bible study with this pastor not present, I am not sure other than its called chain of command.

  248. So, I am watching the Morning News here about these 2 ladies who work in a pharmacy and were held up at gunpoint yesterday. One of the ladies said that she was so scared because she had never seen a gun before.

    First thought through my head “Well, I know that she does not attend a Calvary Chapel”. 🙂

  249. Chile says:

    Please forgive me for the length of this post:

    Steve, MLD attacks character and makes absolute statements he can’t back up and could not know the truth about. I’ve seen you reprimand others for speaking harshly, but never MLD, even when he keeps telling us he’s doing it for you.

    Steve said, “He has skipped recent articles that have appeared at Alex’s blog which I have seen you heartily defend that he has called without merit (to be kind).”

    No, I have not heartily defended things I don’t know about. I do defend the knowledge of the patterns that I know of personally in many CC’s if the newest accusation fits.

    Steve said, “So I don’t need to “ask Michael””

    Michael already posted that I’m a credible witness.

    Steve said, “the flailing seen here with conspiracies like MLD and I are in business together just make you guys even less credible.”

    No it doesn’t. MLD was attacking character and then in a consistent manner coming to your defense, or however you want to describe the role he plays with you and for you, and I asked the question if he was getting clients from you, looking to find what motivates him to consistently do this? Asking questions does not make me less credible. And why would you lump everyone into my questions by saying, “you guys”?

    Steve says, “… there comes a time when facts have to be facts and we cannot believe EVERYONE who tells a story. There are people who enjoy telling fanciful stories.”

    And you know who is telling fanciful stories? The only thing any of us can do is ask questions, and see if their story fits the already known patterns. I can’t tell you the number of times I’ve heard a story and been struck by how all you’d have to do is change the name of the pastor, the place and the date, and you’d have my story! This is how one realizes there is a systemic issue no matter how often MLD says he’s never seen it, or you say you’ve never seen it.

    Steve said, “And I would also add it seems unlikely that all these scores and scores of abuse issues and NOBODY is willing to go public because EVERYONE has some psycho pastor who will terrorize them if they dare say anything public about a name or a church – yet they aren’t scared for that psycho to put two and two together with all the details of their story.”

    Again, I refer you to Michael. Steve, I was warned twice, in just the last week, that there would be repercussions if the “thug” (their description) felt his new business was being affected by me. Better yet, ask Ed Taylor and Gino Geraci and Dave Love what they think? You need to be careful that your defense of all things CC doesn’t make you so blind that you can’t hear valid issues.

    The reasons for many not going public are varied, but consistent. Often what takes place fits the known pattern, but the facts of the issue took place in such a manner that you are left with a he said/he said situation. It takes a perfect story with perfect witnesses and perfect details that happen to be written down or video taped to make issues something you can go public with worth the pain. And then many still buy into the “do not gossip” redefinition to include even things that are true and damaging … see the Assisting Pastors “handbook.” For every one story that makes it to the light, there are many buried for many reasons.

    Steve said, “If you really care about seeing changes you will have to befriend some of us, as Michael has over the years.”

    I disagree. I’d change my mind if I saw some good fruit from it, but at this point the effort versus the outcome leaves me scratching my head …? I think it is the spiritual leaders who have a responsibility to reach out to the people.

    Steve said, “Railing against an entire group is not a ministry – it is bigotry. Guilt by association.”

    Steve, I was not railing against and entire group when I began looking for answers as to what happened to us. I was shocked to find such consistency of issues all over. I began looking in earnest to find a CC pastor who could show me he was different, that his church was different. I heard some of you had changed your by-laws and incorporated needed changes which gave me hope. But when I tried to respectfully and sincerely ask about such changes and the needed proof to know they weren’t just telling me a story (as I’ve been told before by CC pastors) I was then lumped into guilt by association with Alex, or others, who had asked these questions before. I did not receive the proof that even Michael said I’d be a fool not ask for.

    I put out a good faith effort. I did not get what I needed to know that there are significant enough changes written into by-laws to know that there is a single CC pastor out there who has truly dealt with the dangers of the Moses Model.

    So while you routinely dismiss the people’s stories about their run-ins with the Moses Model and CC pastors gone bad, because they are not completely public with names, dates, place, and named witnesses who’ve been vetted and it’s all in writing and signed even by the offending pastor himself (snarc alert); it seems I’m expected to just take CC pastor’s word for what they say is true, though they don’t want me to see the evidence by looking at their by-laws.

    You don’t want me to throw you into the same category of all the CC pastors I’ve known who use the Moses Model to their abusive advantage, yet you throw me into the same category of all the “attenders” who have issue with said model.

  250. uriahisaliveandwell says:

    On Smoke and Mirrors:

    http://www.manipulative-people.com/manipulation-tactics-a-closer-look/

    “As I say in my book In Sheep’s Clothing, a moving target is difficult to hit. When you try to address an issue with them, manipulators will use the tactic of diversion to change the subject or focus of attention, or the tactic of evasion to side-step the issue. The more skilled they are in subtle use of the tactics, the less you realize what they’re doing when they’re doing it. You start off talking about one”

    http://www.manipulative-people.com/manipulation-tactics-a-closer-look-part-2/

  251. Andrew says:

    Chile,
    Thank you! you said it well.

  252. Chile, I don’t believe your story. I would venture a guess that whatever abuse happened to you, it wasn’t at the same level as some who’ve been deeply scarred. You do not share the characteristics, nor the common understanding. Just my opinion from your words.

  253. “and I asked the question if he was getting clients from you, looking to find what motivates him to consistently do this?”

    My motivation is your false accusations. Simple.

    “Michael already posted that I’m a credible witness.” AND WE SEE BY THE”AT GUNPOINT” ACCUSATIONS,the even Michael can be a poor judge of character.

  254. At the risk of being maligned by the “professional bloggers” Now Im a child abuser because I as a CC pastor, along with pastors of other denominations, wait for a child to be able to choose to commit to follow Christ before baptizing them? Really? Do you really believe that or is that just hyperbole?

    Doesn’t this cheapen the meaning of child abuse and demean those who as children were sexually and/or physically abused and neglected? I think if I were such a victim I would be screaming ” technical foul”

  255. Hopkins, that was hyperbole. It was claimed that MLD supported child abusers. That was his response.

  256. Chile says:

    Xenia, the security team is required to be armed the whole time they are at church. The size of the church was reasonable enough that we knew who was on the security team. The pastor packs heat, according to him, all the time.

    Of the 5 I saw, they generally happened the same way. You would see a person surrounded by security guards, a tense exchange, the grabbing of the arms and forcefully moving the person outside to their car. I did see jackets opened to reveal the gun inside as an act of intimidation, though it’s intimidating enough knowing the armed guards are surrounding you. And when I say tense, in those incidences I did not hear the accused raise their voice, just fearful.

    When talking with the people later some told of the threatening remarks made, some told of the flashing of the gun, but all told of how they were not informed as to why they were being removed, nor given a chance to respond to any accusations.

    One said he was asking why people could not see the finances, since that’s a normal thing that churches do. He did not know how average CC’s keep their finances secret and perceive those who inquire as troublemakers.

    Please don’t miss the point of all the intimidation, much more made by the presence of guns, the absence of the leaders talking with the people and hearing their side, just because I missed that you used the word “point” when I read your post.

  257. Chile says:

    Steve Hopkins, clearly you are not all child abusers. That’s just MLD’s crazy talk to try and show me he is an equal opportunity character basher, which he is not.

  258. Chile, care to answer my #252?

  259. Josh
    Whew! Thanks for the clarification. I dont aways agree with MLD but I respect him and his views ( being baptized and confirmed Lutheran myself!) thought it was a bit out of character for him

    Thats what I get for just skimming thru the myriad of posts!

  260. Chile says:

    Josh, I do take you at your word that you experienced some sort of abuse, but you still have not displayed the characteristics of one who has experienced much of it.

    As Brian always points out, it’s not received well if you have been abused and you have any negative emotions about it. Feelings are generally not okay. The good news for you, is that you seem to have no real negative responses to the abuse that help you to empathize and recognize others who have been. This means you are much more welcome as a healthy and acceptable evangelical. The rest of us are just damaged goods, if I read the messages here correctly.

  261. Chile says:

    Josh, it’s not a slam on you. We all have different experiences and different lenses as a result.

  262. That’s bullcrap chile, and now I’m mad.

    WHy don’t you ask me about what happened to me? You are arrogant and delusional. You do the very same thing you would hold for someone else to be the worst kind of sin.

    Hypocrite! And abusive hypocrite at that.

  263. Chile says:

    I’d love to play more in the sandbox, but I’ve got work to do. Have fun!

  264. And furthermore, now I fully take chile as a liar. Nothing she says registers with me at all. All bull crap.

  265. For those of you unaware, I told chile that I was a victim of abuse a few days ago. My # 252 is just a copy and paste of her response to me. That type of crap really hurts.

  266. Chile says:

    I never meant to hurt you, Josh. Maybe we can talk this out later and I can hear you better. Maybe what I intended to communicate was either wrong, or not communicated well.

  267. Jackie Alnor says:

    Brian – thank you for your condolences. You ask, “God be with us all, what other hope have we?” We both know the answer to that – Jesus is THE Door. Follow me on facebook if you ever decide you want to follow the signs of His soon return. My posts track the progress.

  268. She’s Baaaaaaaaack!!!

  269. Hi Jackie! I was asking the other day…are you a Calvary Chapel product?

    Thanks, I know nothing about you, except that some here don’t like you. I know you recently lost a friend, and am sorry to hear that. Just curious about your history with CC.

    Thanks!

  270. Alex says:

    Good lively discussions! Love it.

    Steve H, good to see you. Jackie, good to see you as well. That’s what makes this space great, broad broad range of folks with broad ranges of world view, philosophy, opinions, beliefs etc.

    It’s why I like hanging out here when I’m not saving the world from the evils of Calvary Chapel.

  271. “Josh, I do take you at your word that you experienced some sort of abuse, but you still have not displayed the characteristics of one who has experienced much of it.”

    Would a scar the shape of an iron qualify as one of those characteristics? 20 years of therapy and medications? Suicidal years?

    Guess not. Have fun. I’m done with you.

  272. Alex says:

    Plus the drama. This is like a reality show, LOL. And, a person can learn a lot as well. Thanks again Michael for hosting the beautiful chaos.

  273. Alex, is chile a transfer from your site? You should be proud.

  274. Andrew says:

    Why is it so hard to believe Chile here? My ex pastor stated that if you don’t like the elders here we can always ship you over to Kenya where the elders there carry machine guns. Maybe its hard to believe these stories in United States but this pastor was actually admitting to it. In fact, it may even be mentioned in that link I posted if anyone cared to listen to the entire sermon review. But I don’t remember if it was that sermon or another one.

  275. Alex
    Your #272 about this like being a reality show is an oxymoron! 🙂 had to chuckle a bit

  276. Xenia says:

    Please don’t miss the point of all the intimidation<<<

    Please don't miss the point that you greatly exaggerated the whole "gunpoint" thing and I am not too inclined to pay a whole lot of attention to your other claims as a result.

  277. erunner says:

    Alex, There’s still stuff you can do on your blog. I notice it’s very slow right now and you have a large group of people over there. There’s articles you can write and you can wrestle with some of the same stuff you are over here. I suspect you would get people involved and also get to hear their POV on things you wrestle with. If this thing does drag out another few years through appeals I think you owe it to your blog and those who invest so much time and effort there to get more articles up. Off to the doctor’s office.

  278. Xenia says:

    Story has gone from “many people marched out of church at gunpoint” to “I saw some security guards open their jackets.”

  279. erunner says:

    This is NOT a stab at Chile. In the past here maybe 5-6 years ago I saw a few folks show up here and create stories that weren’t true. Yes, it can happen. Also, I don’t see MLD as a CC defender. The man has had tons of criticism he has shared here in the past. I think with a newer cast of characters here he may come off that way but he’s always been one to play the Reggie Jackson role… the straw that stirs the drink! Now I’m gone.

  280. Bob says:

    For the uniformed here is what I know to be a fact concerning guns in church.

    In most of the churches in my area that I know the pastor or someone on staff I can say with assurance that all of them have armed security. Some of these churches are what would be considered “mega” while others are just a couple of dozen or so.

    It would not surprise me the “ushers” would show their weapons when “escorting” someone from church who was disrupting the service in some way.

    Now are there legal aspects here? The answer is yes!

    In most states and current Federal Law one can’t just pull a gun and either threaten or shoot someone. If you live in a “carry” state to threaten another person who is not posing a threat of serious bodily injury or death with a gun is considered at minimum assault.

    Chile do I believe you? Yes!

    Unless you are willing to file charges of assault against the person or person(s) involved it’s time to move on. Go to another church and find some good people to fellowship with. IN scripture church is not a place where we bring sacrifices and offerings to appease God and make our life go better. It is a place of fellowship between God’s creation and a place for corporate celebration of where God has brought us out of and into.

    The flaw is in our expectations of what church is. Do you think maybe we have a bit of idol worship and worthless sacrifice in our expectation?

    PS. I would probably contact a lawyer and consider filing assault charges if it happened to me.

  281. Xenia says:

    Josh, evidently a “true” victim of abuse must display certain behaviors or else they weren’t really abused. They must never ever act like you, probably the sanest person on the PhxP, a person who consistently demonstrates compassion, common sense plus a healthy skepticism. A “true” victim must never grow, they must display and cherish their scars for ever and ever.

  282. uriahisaliveandwell says:

    http://www.manipulative-people.com/manipulation-tactics-a-closer-look/

    “As I say in my book In Sheep’s Clothing, a moving target is difficult to hit. When you try to address an issue with them, manipulators will use the tactic of diversion to change the subject or focus of attention, or the tactic of evasion to side-step the issue. The more skilled they are in subtle use of the tactics, the less you realize what they’re doing when they’re doing it. You start off talking about one”

    Part II next post.

  283. Alex says:

    X, licensed clinical therapists and psychologists and other experts in the field (from personal conversations and my own research on the subject) report that, like with everything, folks respond in a variety of manners after being abused.

    Some respond by repeating the abusive behavior. Recent studies show an overwhelming amount of those currently incarcerated (in prison) were physically and/or sexually abused.

    There is a direct correlation, as noted by science, tons of data etc, that the Abuse does have a psychological and emotional lasting impact on abuse victims and results in a predictable set of behaviors, some which are exhibited on here and elsewhere in their very mild forms (by those, including myself, who have been Abused).

    Some cope with the Abuse differently. Many are in Denial and are able to shut off the Abuse in their brains and pretend it never happened.

    Some are able to work out the Abuse through counseling, religious means, meds, you name it and don’t display any of the outward “characteristics’ of many of the others who were Abused.

    It’s not a “one size fits all”…but the overwhelming Data supports the thesis that “most” who are Abused are changed by it forever and then struggle in exhibiting aggressive or violent behavior.

    Personally, I’ve been able to overcome the “violent” tendencies by venting on blogs etc. and by channeling the violent tendencies into sports or other healthy endeavors.

    I am non-abusive to my wife and kids and those who are close to me, whereas BG was abusive to his family and repeated the abuse he grew up with and probably the PTSD he suffered from his stint in Vietnam.

    I am happy for those who have been Abused who can either live in Denial or cope with the Abuse in an even more healthy way than I am coping with it. I thank God (if He exists) that I have been able to cope with it in as good a manner as I have, as typing words on a blog and calling spades spades and speaking out seems a much healthier endeavor than repeating the abuse in my home, like BG did.

  284. uriahisaliveandwell says:

    http://www.manipulative-people.com/manipulation-tactics-a-closer-look-part-2/

    If you know what to look for you will see the truth no matter what they would like you to believe.

    Also, whatever happened to 1Corinthians 5:5-6:9. Why do we need to go to court to settle the very things that Paul told us to address in the church? In the 34 years I’ve attended CC I have not once seen church discipline take place within CC. What I see is an exteme cover up and guarding of the leadership and little regard for those who are supposedly the rest of the church. I say supposedly because if they are not members then what are they and if they are not able to participate other than to serve the leadership then what are they and if they cannot asks questions then what are they and if they cannot be protected from those within the congregation and or leadership, then what are they. God calls them the flock, but how can they be a flock if the shepherd are hirelings instead. Just what is a trojan horse. I suppose it depends where you are sitting and how much liberty you are given in making something look like what it is not, then called the person who speaks the truth, the one who is the enemy instead.

  285. Xenia – thank you so much for your much needed, healing words. You’ve been a great blessing to me fo years now.

    Alex – Do you agree with your buddy Chile, that nothing much happened to me?

  286. PP Vet says:

    Heard Joyce Meyer talking about years of being molested by her dad. Forgave him, cared for him in his old age, then eventually led him to Christ, and ultimately thanked God for the whole experience because of the person it helped her become.

  287. PP Vet says:

    Anyone ever been threatened in church by a Super Soaker?

  288. Michael says:

    Many moons ago when I was in blessed semi retirement I was contacted by a number of friends and sources in CC concerning the situation that Chile was in.
    I remember remarking to one of them that even if I published the whole story, no one would believe it.
    If I can get some people to go on the record and provide me with documentation that I know exists, I may write it up anyway.
    Chile may be guilty here of imprecise language and descriptions…but she would have a hard time exaggerating the depths of this scandal and the impact that it’s had on the communities it affected.
    You may choose too believe me or not, but in the current blogging climate I’d be a damn fool not to have all my ducks lined up with feathers showing.

  289. Alex says:

    Erunner, I write over there when I have something to say from that platform. I haven’t felt much like writing there due to my disgust and doubts lately. I, for some reason, expected some sort of miracle by now, that BG would come under conviction and confess and repent and seek reconciliation or that Chuck Smith would intervene and make things right etc. I have given up on miracles. The questions that have haunted me about the Selective Fundamentalist form of religion/Christianity have come to the fore, very strongly. There are very solid reasons to doubt and God has been noticeably absent in my situation and I have left it all on the field in “faith” and borne my soul and spilled my guts and opened myself and my family up to much harm and have been abandoned, God has been absent, while BG has been supported (he says from his pulpit recently) by the Calvary Chapel and the govt. authorities there in Visalia.

    Most of my adult life I have wondered if God really exists and have been tempted to question such due to the rank hypocrisy I witnessed in the church growing up, my own hypocrisy and the abuses etc. I have argued with Atheists for years and while I fought back valiantly, they had some good questions and pointed out many anomalies that are contradictions and the “church” has given them a ton of other good arguments by the scandal and toleration of abuses and injustices etc.

    While my doubt in “no God” is still greater than my doubt in “God”…I have zero faith in the church and in “Christians” and many of the questions I have do not have good answers (from a philosophical logic perspective).

    I enjoy hanging out here b/c I like Michael and several others on here and even those I don’t like, the interaction is challenging at times and it is a great place to express my opinions and to be challenged and to vent etc. It is supposedly a “community” and I have earned the right through blood, sweat and tears to be a member of it and I’m no more or less out of line than many others on here (at times). I am a strong personality, yes, but so are many of you. I do agree that I need to watch the number of posts at times and will respond accordingly when reminded and take breaks to not “dominate”.

  290. Alex says:

    Yes, Chile’s scandal is legit. I have the info. I have a ton of other info about CC shuffling pedophiles to South America and many other terrible scandals as well. The problem is getting folks to stand behind the info, and they won’t b/c Calvary Chapel is litigious and vindictive and while they tell others to “forgive!” “leave it to the Lord!” “dont’ judge!” “get a life!” “move on!”…they very much don’t. They will look for any opportunity to draw blood and they eventually will if you don’t shut up (which I’ve proven to be true and it is on the historical record for church history to observe and reflect on).

  291. Q says:

    Is there a question on whether or not some CC pastors have people around them after the service that carry guns or carry guns themselves?

    I have a friend (well over 6′ tall) who became a deacon at a CC and got a carry permit for that very reason, so I am going to say yes.

    Do these guys stand with in about 5′ when you when you talk to the pastor between or after services, again I am going to have to say yes.

    Is this strange and intimidating, yes.

    Is this what we want in a pastor?

    Is this proper behavior for a pastor?

  292. Bob says:

    Uriah…

    “Why do we need to go to court to settle the very things that Paul told us to address in the church?”

    Because churches don’t consider themselves a community anymore. They do not have rules of law and process just egos.

    ” In the 34 years I’ve attended CC I have not once seen church discipline take place within CC. What I see is an exteme cover up and guarding of the leadership and little regard for those who are supposedly the rest of the church. ”

    The reason is CCs pick and choose (like most people) the scriptures which they will follow and the ones they won’t. Even with the real Moses there was a system of order and ways for the people to have their complaints and accusations heard. A large part of Deuteronomy is about that very subject. Sadly if church government was set up according to these instructions the “Moses model” pastor would be over ruled.

    I know it’s tough but the simple answer to CCs problems is to treat them like they treat those whom they abuse, walk away and have no contact with them. Treat them as a “tax collector.”

    I know it taint that simple.

    So why after 34 years do you still attend (never a member) CC?

  293. Michael, if your CC sources know of this crap and remain in CC, and do nothing about the situation, then I have no respect for them, or belief in their word.

  294. Alex says:

    Michael is very wise to be prudent as Calvary Chapel will sue him and Chuck will give the OK if he leaves any opening. Chuck is a liar and a snake and what you see as the public persona is not a true reflection of the real man behind the curtain.

  295. Alex says:

    Josh said, “Michael, if your CC sources know of this crap and remain in CC, and do nothing about the situation, then I have no respect for them, or belief in their word.”

    Ya, welcome to my world Josh. And you wonder why I get so disgusted and am so blunt and pissed off at times. You should read the piles of stuff I have. Chile’s is really really bad, but it’s not the worst.

    But, “get over it” “leave it to the Lord” blah, blah, blah, meanwhile the stuff continues and gets graced over, but very FIRM law and justice! for those who leave an opening for Calvary Chapel to exact vengeance. It’s upside down. If God exists, He lets it happen and “blesses” that sect anyway…which gives me strong doubt in God’s active role in humanity. If God exists, He probably isn’t even a “he” and He probably is passive in the creation vs. behind every action and reaction as Selective Fundamentalists sell.

  296. Alex says:

    Josh, what happened to you? I missed it.

  297. Self obsessed, a little?

  298. Michael says:

    Josh,

    It was eventually dealt with…and the way that happened was almost as ridiculous as the scandals that created the need to remove the offender.
    There are allegations of multiple affairs, embezzlement, and a host of other unsavory things…and the guy just moved back to town and has started another church.
    The guy is brilliant, charismatic, and manipulative, and I could easily see why people would be intimidated.

  299. Here’s what I would bet my life on – Chile’s description of what happened bears little resemblance to what really happened.

  300. Michael says:

    If I had a church in some areas of the country, my ushers would pack.
    There have been numerous church shootings and I would owe it to my flock to protect them.

  301. Michael says:

    I’m not worried about being sued by “Calvary Chapel”. I do worry about being sued by individuals who are now or formerly have been in it.
    I would have the same concern about any group or individual I wrote critically about.

  302. Alex says:

    BG says he has Calvary Chapel’s blessing or some such thing. Same difference IMO.

  303. Michael says:

    Alex,

    Church history shows that God does not always save His people from the machinations of power.
    It also shows that He never has wasted the sufferings of those who were victims of it.

  304. Alex says:

    I agree with having some armed folks at church. I’m armed all the time. You never know when someone will go Jihad or go postal.

    What I don’t like is what happened to Nick VanderLaan and what BG does with his Goon Squad. There’s a line between common sense security and Gustapo-like intimidation.

  305. Alex says:

    Josh said, “Here’s what I would bet my life on – Chile’s description of what happened bears little resemblance to what really happened.”

    You’d make a good defense attorney. “If it doesn’t fit, you must acquit!”

    That’s the strategy Calvary Chapel has been very successful in implementing. Everyone’s a liar, everyone exaggerates, “we just can’t know the truth” etc etc.

    Yet, Calvary Chapel can be 100% SURE! of the truth in so many other areas that are much more nebulous than a guy banging chicks who aren’t his wife and stealing money from the church etc (like in other CC cases).

    It exposes on big lie and what liars and twisters Calvary Chapel is. I dont’ believe anything they say anymore. I think it’s a big Con.

  306. Bob says:

    Josh the …

    Why would you doubt Chile’s account?

    What evidence do you have he/she is inaccurate?

    Others:

    Now I don’t pack and yes people I fellowship do, but not under any order from church.

    Why with all the shootings over the years in church would you not want to protect the assembly from shooters? It is clear the modern gunmen in the USA are cowards who come to places where they will not be confronted with response in kind.

    Oh well the “gun debate” will go silly here, so I will drop it.

  307. @ 306 – So you are admitting it’s fine to totally exaggerate the details of a story, and then expect everyone to believe it? Telling.

    Bob – because Chile is full of crap.

  308. Michael says:

    I don’t judge either the Bible or the church by how it’s been abused…either by others or myself.
    The Bible is the word of God and the church is the bride of Christ…and that has to be kept in the forefront.

  309. uriahisaliveandwell says:

    Bob,

    I don’t attend CC anymore, but it doesn’t mean I don’t care about the people who still remain there. I doesn’t mean that I don’t care about those whom have been harmed, nor does mean that I don’t care about those whom calls themselves into the position of a pastor. I haven’t lost my faith and trust in the Lord, for I have lived long enough to also be able to say that even though it does not appear as though God is paying attention to those who cause such offenses, He is in ways that are often unknown to us or become immediately evident to us. The important thing is to know what your are dealing with and to do as much as you are able to do, while remaining steadfast in the faith. And when you have done everything humanly possible, then stand in Him. I only mentioned how long I had been with CC to give some degree of longevity and awareness to say that what I have seen and experienced rings true to what I know is indicative of the articles I linked.

  310. Alex says:

    Michael said, “Church history shows that God does not always save His people from the machinations of power.
    It also shows that He never has wasted the sufferings of those who were victims of it.”

    That sounds like an excuse for God.

    Supposedly God stopped the Sun for Joshua. “So the sun stood still, and the moon stopped, till the nation avenged itself on its enemies, as it is written in the Book of Jashar. The sun stopped in the middle of the sky and delayed going down about a full day.” (and why don’t we have the book of Jashar as canon since it’s referenced in a canonical book?)

    Supposedly God “changed His mind” on stuff in the OT.

    Supposedly God “repented” and “relented” and changed His mind on stuff.

    Supposedly God ‘hardened the heart of Pharoah” and supposedly God makes folks do stuff, etc.

    Supposedly God answers expressions of extreme faith, as exampled by Peter walking on water and others who stepped out in extreme faith.

    I don’t buy it.

    I copped to major sin when I confronted this whole thing. I bore my soul. I took great risks. I stepped out in extreme faith.

    God had been absent and the bad guys gained an advantage and have used it to exact vengeance on me and my family.

    You’re making excuses for God. If He’s really the active God that moves pieces around the board in this existence and gets directly involved in creation etc, then I’d see it.

    Stuff seems to happen randomly. There is little correlation to any outcome other than reaping and sowing principle.

  311. Xenia says:

    Chile originally wanted us to believe her old CC was an armed camp with people being regularly frog-marched out the door at gunpoint for apparently thinking non-CC thoughts.

    The truth is, she saw some men with jackets.

    If this doesn’t make you all rethink some of the stuff that has been recounted here over the years I don’t know what would.

  312. Steve Wright says:

    Last night I spoke from Proverbs and said how tough it is to discuss what God’s word says about riches and prosperity because of the false prosperity teachers that have gone beyond the Biblical teachings.

    We’ve crossed a blogging rubicon. The fear of man (and lawsuit) is strong, but where is the fear of God to seek to model Christ’s teachings in dealing with conflict, with judging our brothers and so forth. To love. I’ve looked in the mirror and made my repentance.

    Can we even call anything gossip anymore. No. Because that word has been hijacked and any claim to something being gossip is just dismissed. It’s as if nobody can be guilty of gossip anymore – despite the many Biblical warnings.

    As to never seeing church discipline. What typically happens is that someone is told “No” for the first time and then they leave the church for one down the street. The issue never makes it to some sort of “tell it to the church” stage because the one-on-one initially is enough for the person to split. The odds are better than 50/50 they will then talk badly about how controlling their old pastor was, and how great this new church is – until they are told “No” for the first time there. .

    But it IS NOT AN EITHER OR!!! Why can’t we see that it is true some people are horribly treated and have a terrible experience, and seek to minister to such people BUT ALSO recognize that a lot of what people call bullying, abuse, and control are actually just selfish, childish reactions to not getting their own way. Such people don’t want to be in a congregational form of government where they are just one vote – they are attracted to a CC style where they know if they can just convince a leader or two of their ideas they can have a lot of power and control. Until they are told “no”…

    Likewise, that some might be very hesitant due to their scars to share their story in much detail but OTHERS really just want to cause trouble, don’t have the facts on their side, and thus can’t allow the other side to even be heard. And the easiest way to be allowed on blogs to spill all venom is to simply say “I’m scared of my CC pastor coming after me and my family so I can’t name names and have you actually check into whether what I say is true”

    So it’s up to the individual blog to determine, just like with something like foul language, how much unBiblical judgement, gossip, accusations and bigotry will be tolerated.

  313. Q says:

    I have guns also, but there is a difference in carrying a gun and treating everyone like a potential threat.

    Covering the pastor like he is the president, that’s weird.

  314. Alex says:

    Josh, Chile has experience in some areas that make your statement look silly and there are others who support the claims about her CC pastor who went sideways in a big way.

    But, Calvary Chapel will love your assessment and go “See! We just can’t know!” and use it to obfuscate, spin, twist and lie their arses off to protect the status quo of injustice, abuse and corruption in their System.

    Grace over the bad guy, vengeance on those who blow the whistle. Thanks God! Thanks Jesus! I feel so blessed!! Blessings!

  315. “God had been absent and the bad guys gained an advantage and have used it to exact vengeance on me and my family.”

    Maybe God is telling you something, and it’s the opposite of what you want to hear. Seems obvious from this side.

  316. Alex says:

    X, Josh, I don’t believe your take or anything you say. You guys haven’t communicated perfectly at all times. In fact, I will start scrutinizing your every word and point out when you use hyperbole or when you express a take that is over-the-top and then I’ll call into question your sincerity and your truthfulness…every single time. You’re not going to like it very much and you’ll cry foul and you’ll want me banned and you’ll get very angry with me. But, it “might” teach you a lesson…

    We’ll start the meter running now (and i’m persistent, I’ll do it for years… 🙂

  317. Alex says:

    Josh said, “Maybe God is telling you something, and it’s the opposite of what you want to hear. Seems obvious from this side.”

    What would God be telling me? Can you be specific? What seems obvious, specifically? I dont’ understand what you’re saying.

  318. “Josh, Chile has experience in some areas that make your statement look silly and there are others who support the claims about her CC pastor who went sideways in a big way.”

    So she says, which holds ZERO weight with me.

    Oh wait, all your nameless sources agree.

    I’m calling crap.

    We have a fundamental disagreement over who “The Bad Guys” are.

    You’ll out a good guy like Steve Wright, but hide the identities of these cowards who keep sending the crap in? Noble.

  319. Alex says:

    Josh, so far God has been silent. He hasn’t told me anything other than that CC is hypocritical in saying “Forgive!” “leave it to the Lord!” “let GOD deal with it!” “Bad stuff happens, just move on and leave it in the hands of God!”

    Yet, Chuck and Calvary Chapel (according to BG) gave him the green light to sue and go against a “literal” interpretation of the bible they profess to teach and believe “simply”…yet there are always loopholes when needed…

  320. Alex says:

    Josh said, “So she says, which holds ZERO weight with me.”

    Great, it’s a tie! Your opinion holds ZERO weight with me. Glad we got that figured out.

  321. How could he not sue you? Your blog accused him of child molestation. Do that to me, and you’ll have another lawsuit on your hands.

  322. Alex says:

    Josh said, “You’ll out a good guy like Steve Wright”

    I’m not sure Steve Wright is a good guy, just b/c he says so. Who can know for sure? He’s said some things that aren’t perfect and he’s used hyperbole and gotten some things wrong many times. His credibility is highly in question. Who can really believe anything hes says.

  323. Alex at 321 – Not what you said a couple of days ago, but you’ve been known to shift like a worm when something doesn’t suit your wants.

  324. Alex says:

    Josh said, “How could he not sue you? Your blog accused him of child molestation. Do that to me, and you’ll have another lawsuit on your hands.”

    Paul Grenier accused BG of child molestation. I believe Paul. Big difference. You just made an error in what you communicated. I now question everything you say as you can’t be trusted to get the facts right. Your credibility is now shot for good.

  325. “Josh, so far God has been silent.”

    Only the deaf would say such a thing.

  326. Wrong again. I said “your blog”. The accusation is hosted on your blog.

  327. Alex says:

    Josh, if someone I knew and trusted accused you of child molestation, I’d tell the church and authorities and I’d report you and if you were a public figure in a position of trust I’d report on it publicly.

  328. Alex says:

    Dunno what part of all that you don’t understand, but it only further calls into question your ability to process information and make a sound assessment. I don’t trust your take on much of anything anymore, unless maybe it’s music or guitars.

  329. Alex says:

    Josh, didn’t you have some sort of head injury or brain surgery or something? Am I confusing you with someone else?

  330. Michael says:

    “We’ll start the meter running now (and i’m persistent, I’ll do it for years… ”
    No, you won’t.

  331. Alex says:

    Michael, LOL. Then tell them to leave Chile alone and be fair.

  332. Michael says:

    Steve,

    I recognize there is truth in much of what you’re saying.
    More terrifying to me is that I will give an account for this.
    The alternative is doing nothing, which I would also give an account for.

  333. I’m not blaming you for posting it. (Don’t know why you can’t understand simple English).

    I am telling you it gave Bob no choice, but to sue. You talked about it before the suit was filed and welcomed your day in court. Seems like you agreed with me…oh yeah, until things didn’t go the way you planned.

  334. @ 330 – I did. And if you start insulting something about my mental abilities, based on the aneurysm i am recovering from…

    Well, it’s be par for the course. Go right ahead.

  335. Michael says:

    Alex,
    This is an open blog.
    People are allowed to express their opinions.
    I have spoken on Chile’s behalf.
    Chile will have to be satisfied with being vindicated by truth and time, not a blizzard of your posts.

  336. Alex says:

    Josh, you assume much.

    Also, seriously, didn’t you have a brain issue or some sort of head trauma or something? Seems I remember you sharing about that on here several times. If so, do you think that may be an issue in your processing things at times?

  337. Alex says:

    Josh, sorry the hear that. I sincerely hope you recover. i would just suggest that maybe your health issue clouds your thought process at times and maybe your take on Chile should be considered in that light.

  338. Michael says:

    As to making excuses for God…
    I can’t even express how offensive to me this line of questioning has become to me.
    My family is facing trials I can’t speak about here…things well beyond my own health and financial issues…things that were beyond our control and influence.
    Still I walk in faith and try to lead in faith…knowing that God is good in the midst of bad circumstances.
    Our hope is in God and God is our only hope.
    I believe, God help my unbelief.

  339. Michael says:

    Alex,

    That comment to Josh was contemptible.

  340. So now, I wasn’t really abused.

    And I can’t think straight because I had an aneurysm.

    I have never been so insulted in one day.

    Alex. I’m smarter than you. I would debate you on any issue, and have you balled up in the fetal position before its over. You are not intelligent, you just talk a lot.

    Don’t ever try to make an issue of my mental abilities again. Perhaps the fact that you have the emotional capacity of a 3 year old stops you from processing things correctly?

  341. Alex says:

    Josh’s comments about Chile and Chile’s real pain are contemptible.

  342. Alex says:

    Josh, whatevs. I think you need to calm down before you have another aneurism.

  343. Michael says:

    Alex,

    343 just got you moderated.

  344. Alex, tell me more about that landmark case you are involved in. Huge victory for free speech right?

  345. Alex says:

    You can have the last word. I made my point. Leave Chile alone. Your calling into question her real pain and real situation (in spite of Michael vouching for her) is “contemptible” and offensive to me an others.

    If you want to act like that to one of my friends, then expect some push back. And I’ll debate you on anything at any time.

    I’m going to go get some work down now and I’ll read any responses tonight or tomorrow.

    My hope is you can have a last word and then we’ll let it drop. Leave Chile alone. Ask Michael for the details if you are interested (off line).

  346. Steve Wright says:

    I recognize there is truth in much of what you’re saying.
    More terrifying to me is that I will give an account for this.
    The alternative is doing nothing, which I would also give an account for.
    ———————————————–
    No, that is not the only alternative. That indicates the false “either/or” choice I was describing.

    You mioderate filthy language. If someone did not and then said “well, my only choice is to close comments” that too would be a false choice.

    But all in all Michael, you have done a good job moderating this blog in the past – as seen I think by its fruit in those past many years. Defending and supporting those, on either side of the pastor/congregant divide who are worthy of defense and who have the truth on their side and the desire to serve and worship the Lord as they are led.

    A place that actually could help people – people recover who have been hurt, pastors to help guide their churches and so forth. Making a difference and NOT letting people live vicariously through you and using you rather than supporting you. A place we could actually REFER others to! (Hey, you ought to check out this blog PP)

    But now….well, I go back to my ‘crossing the rubicon’ comment. Not sure how easy it is to get the jeannie back in the bottle.

    Blessings.

  347. SHE CALLED MY PAIN INTO QUESTION YOU IGNORANT JERK!!!

  348. Michael says:

    Steve,

    I don’t have the ability to police this 24/7.
    I am down to one moderator who also has a full time job and a family and one who helps as she can…but who has a very full plate.
    After today I need to rethink the whole thing again…

  349. Solomon Rodriguez says:

    Michael said:

    “f I had a church in some areas of the country, my ushers would pack.
    There have been numerous church shootings and I would owe it to my flock to protect them.”

    so much for turning the other cheek huh? John Wayne Christianity, as Don King said “Only In America”

  350. Solomon Rodriguez says:

    Is Chile one and the same as Uriahisaliveandwell?

  351. Michael,

    Why are you permitting Josh to goad Alex in the manner that he is. This is not right for him to do and what I would consider to be abusive.

  352. Michael says:

    Solomon,

    I’m not going to turn the other cheek while someone blows away kids that came to Sunday School.

  353. Uriah, you can speak to me. It seems you are also incapable of reading. Do you have a problem with something I’ve said?

  354. Andrew says:

    “As to never seeing church discipline. What typically happens is that someone is told “No” for the first time and then they leave the church for one down the street. The issue never makes it to some sort of “tell it to the church” stage because the one-on-one initially is enough for the person to split. The odds are better than 50/50 they will then talk badly about how controlling their old pastor was, and how great this new church is – until they are told “No” for the first time there. ”

    In all due respect, the church discipline in question is that concerning the behavior of the senior pastor. Who gets to say the “no” in CC? It is only the pastor. You don’t understand the least thing about church discipline. It is supposed to be a corporate thing with all those “members” in the church. So does your church have membership?

  355. Michael says:

    Uriah,

    Josh’s own experiences and suffering have been mocked.
    If you’re only concerned about Alex, send him some flowers and stay on his blog.

  356. Michael @ 356 –

    I am literally shedding tears now.

    Thank you so much for standing for me. I am sorry for my actions today. God bless you brother.

  357. Michael says:

    Josh,

    You are a valuable and loved member of this community.
    Thank you for the apology, but I don’t think it was necessary.

  358. You’re a good man. God bless you and your family, Michael.

  359. Michael says:

    To you as well, Josh…and may God show Himself faithful in all things that concern you.

  360. uriahisaliveandwell says:

    Michael,

    I think the best thing to have done was to put a halt to Josh’s comments as well. No need to get sarcastic with me Michael. I meant no ill intent meant towards you or Josh. Just calling it as I saw it. What Josh was doing was throwing darts or knives at a person who has been terribly wronged and having a rough go of it in reconciling the current circumstances. I don’t anything about Josh. I only followed what was just occurred between the two of them. I do know Alex much better and what some may think of him in terms of what Josh was implying is simply not true. At the same time, I cannot even begin to imagine the task of having to monitor the comments. Yet, would think that you would be as tolerate of Alex as you seem to be with Josh. As you just stated, we all are going through tough things, which I agree whole heartedly. And in that, I think we need to take a breath and not be carnivorous towards each other.

    Floweres to everyone, yourself and me included.

  361. Papias says:

    Michael,

    I know that this is a trying time for you personally, and at times, on the blog.

    Praying for you and yours.

    Im starting a new job soon, or else I would volunteer to help out.

  362. Solomon Rodriguez says:

    Bottom line is as Christians we are called to be suffering saints in this World for we are not of it. We must be willing to carry our cross for a servant is not above his Master and Jesus suffered so what makes us think that we will not suffer. And we may not get our justice in this life but in the end God’s judgment will come upon unbelievers. There have been countless martyrs for the gospel and they did not love their lives unto death and they did not get earhtly justice so we need to be open to the fact that wer may not get that justice for ourselves here on earth. I have compassion for Alex and he has stood firm but after this case is over with he should focus on serving Christ and his family so that they all could move forward and not get stuck in the past.

  363. ” at a person who has been terribly wronged and having a rough go of it in reconciling the current circumstances.”

    That doesn’t allow Alex a free pass to be hurtful here. Let him take it out on his customers when they come in the store.

  364. Uriah, I’m going to follow our host’s lead and dial it back a bit.

    I was brutally abused from about three years old until about 12 years old. In addition to that, I was sexually molested by a grown neighbor from about 4 to 7. Those are the good point of my childhood.

    I was told several times today that I didn’t really suffer much. That hurt.

    I am 38, have a wonderful wife and two small children. In 2010, I had an aneurysm, and two brains surgeries to keep me from dying.

    I was mocked for that today. That hurt even worse.

    I do apologize for not better controlling my behavior, and I hope to show better character in the future.

  365. Michael says:

    Thank you, Papias… and may God bless your new job.

  366. Steve Wright says:

    . You don’t understand the least thing about church discipline. It is supposed to be a corporate thing
    ———————————————
    Actually, it is supposed to be a brother to brother thing…then a 2 or 3 with you thing, THEN a corporate thing – but as I said in my post – it does not get to that stage because the person would rather move on to another church at the moment they are told “No” or “Stop” than stay and work out the challenge and bring others into it.

    Families that love each other still have disagreements but they stay together. A lot of people don’t commit to their church as a family of sorts. It exists for them ONLY and when it no longer meets all their needs, they move on. They are there to be served, not to serve (and by serve I don’t mean clean the toilets I mean love, encourage, pray with others).

    They are the antithesis of Jesus.

    As to who gets to say no, it depends on what the situation is at our place. My leaders are almost totally autonomous. Your judgement about me and my church is without knowledge and false – even if it is colored by a past experience somewhere else…which is what I was talking about earlier. Do we fear the Lord enough to act accordingly and not slander, make false allegations, covered in pride? Look at people as individuals instead of bigotry judgements based on prior bias due to the past.

    Or does one just want to ride the coattails of Michael and the hard work he has as the blog owner, undermine the years of effort spent in building a community of diversity unified in Christian love, judge people that have been here for years and are family (like Josh) – rather than start one’s own blog where you can freely say whatever you want to however large an audience you can draw.

  367. Andrew says:

    It is just unbelievable the things Steve says about church discipline and now this:

    “But it IS NOT AN EITHER OR!!! Why can’t we see that it is true some people are horribly treated and have a terrible experience, and seek to minister to such people BUT ALSO recognize that a lot of what people call bullying, abuse, and control are actually just selfish, childish reactions to not getting their own way. Such people don’t want to be in a congregational form of government where they are just one vote – they are attracted to a CC style where they know if they can just convince a leader or two of their ideas they can have a lot of power and control. Until they are told “no”…”

    So Steve is admitting there is a lot of power and “control” being a CC pastor. But we are not to call CC pastors “controlling” is the way he comes across. Steve it is not about one vote, it is about accountability. Your comments ring true of the old adage “Touch Not God’s anointed”. I don’t think you realize how you come across. It appears you you just cast all these abused victims in the mold of just wanting to have their own way. By the way, Its only really the Moses Model pastor that truly gets his way.

  368. Steve Wright says:

    Uriah – I think your comment can be summarized best as you said you don’t know Josh that well, but you know Alex very well.

    That should give you pause before you criticize.

    As for most of us here – we know BOTH Josh and Alex very well.

  369. Alex says:

    Josh, I’m sorry for your pain and I apologize. I did not know the details of your abuse, I only knew of some sort of brain issue.

    I think Chile and myself and others have experienced real pain as well, but you seem to discount the pain of others as somehow invalid and you expressed a skepticism of what we report, yet I take your testimony on face value as true and don’t seek to question whether or not you are telling the truth about it.

    You got a dose of your own medicine earlier and it painful, no? That’s how you made Chile feel and it’s how you’ve made me feel many times. It’s no fun.

  370. Alex says:

    Steve W, you don’t know me at all. You are biased and you have an Agenda.

  371. Andrew says:

    “Actually, it is supposed to be a brother to brother thing…then a 2 or 3 with you thing, THEN a corporate thing – but as I said in my post – it does not get to that stage because the person would rather move on to another church at the moment they are told “No” or “Stop” than stay and work out the challenge and bring others into it.”

    You don’t get it Steve. Who is telling the No here?

  372. Steve Wright says:

    Andrew, yes, Steve admits there is a lot of power being a CC pastor. I’ve never not admitted that, Andrew.

    What I have tried to model (and share with other CC pastors as they desire) is that with such power comes greater responsibility.

    Maybe others can tell you about our accountability guidelines that explain how I can be fired. Guidelines we seek to share with any who desire them as a template for their churches.

    I’ll pray for you, Andrew. But like a couple others, there is no chance of interaction with words here. I’m sorry that even though you no longer have anything to do with CC, you are so obsessed and focused that it has you make false judgements against the brethren. That is not good for your soul. So I’ll stop contributing to that damage and leave further attacks on me, unanswered.

  373. uriahisaliveandwell says:

    Solomon, well stated.

    MLD, and what excuse are you giving Josh to get a pass on this? I think we need to be empathic and understand that given the immediate fallout that Alex is experiencing, we also need to refrain from pushing buttons that could do irreparable harm as well to another. We, who are stronger in the faith need to come alongside each of these to encourage them to support one another rather than to take potshots that only hurts the heart and puts a soul hanging in the balance.

  374. Papias says:

    For Josh –

    “With a sigh i greet the day
    i feel the morning on my face
    weary at the moment i awake
    even as i lie
    the thought returns to mind
    “welcome to the rest of your life”.
    somewhere i’ve lost my way
    from saved to stray and failing
    in silence my spirit pleads,
    “is the vision lost
    or has it been passed on?
    is there any use continuing?”

    my soul will wait
    my soul-wait silently
    for God, my God(God my refuge)
    and i will live
    and i know some destiny
    still waits for me

    his faithfulness, my hope
    it brings comfort to my soul
    with a still small voice whispering,
    “call upon my name and i
    will set you up on high
    be still and know that i am God

    creation speaks to me
    i’m stricken to my knees
    in reverance and fear
    forever my Almighty
    the heavens in your hand
    surpass the grains of sand
    who am i before you
    elieonai eli adullam [God my father, God my refuge]

    Stavesacre – “At The Moment”

  375. Michael says:

    ENOUGH!

    Go on topic, but enough on who hurt who the most.
    I freaking hate this place sometimes.

  376. Alex. It was Chile who first dismissed my abuse.

    See my # 253? That was a copy and paste from a couple of days ago. That was her first response to telling her that I was abused.

    2nd, your making fun of my near-death brain issue was evil.

    3rd, the first person on this blog that I ever told about my abuse was…you. We had a long conversation on here about it.

    I remember that you were abused, you don’t remember that I was. What does that say?

  377. Papias, did you know Stavesacre is one of my fav bands ever? Thanks! Perfect.

  378. Alex says:

    “I remember that you were abused, you don’t remember that I was. What does that say?”

    That I forgot about it. I remembered the brain thing for some reason, but I get so many stories of abuse (hundreds) that I simply didn’t remember yours for some reason. I’m sorry it didn’t stick. I’m sure it will now. Again, my apologies. I would have handled you differently today had I remembered that.

  379. I’m glad you didn’t remember the abuse. I guess you would have made fun of that too.

    Would you have laughed in the face of my wife, daughter, and son if they were left without there husband and father? Classy.

  380. Let’s be less combative and move to the Anglican thread and discuss why the Lord’s Supper is the real Body and Blood of Jesus.

    Whereas after proper institution, if a crumb falls on the floor and is eaten by a mouse – the mouse has consumed the actual body of the Lord.

    There, that even separates us from the Reformed and their quasi “real presence”. 😉

  381. erunner says:

    I had a great visit today with my diabetes doctor. I’ve lost 25 pounds and my A1C level is awesome. I’m doing green smoothies and they have literally changed my life in ways I never imagined. Thought I’d share some good news!! 🙂

    I am desperate to find out how to make the ultimate coconut flavored smoothie. I want it to taste as coconutty as possible. Sugars don’t matter as I have learned from the American Diabetes Association how to have a totally fruit smoothie and how to counter the sugar spike by doing vigorous exercise before the sugar gets too high. It really works and is legit. If you have the secret Jamba Juice or any recipe that gives me the ultimate coconut experience you can drop by and I’ll make you the smoothie of your choice. 🙂

  382. Papias says:

    “I had a great visit today with my diabetes doctor. I’ve lost 25 pounds and my A1C level is awesome. I’m doing green smoothies and they have literally changed my life in ways I never imagined. Thought I’d share some good news!!”

    Thats good news! Way to go E!

    I need to start doing more diabetes friendly eating. Went to my doc last week and my numbers were high, and I reminded her (again) that I’ve been out of meds for about 2 months. DUH! Once I get them, I gotta be good about taking them. And eating better. And exercising.

    But I lost about 11lbs since my last visit. Probably due to chasing the kids around. 😉

  383. Bob Sweat says:

    “E”
    Thanks for the update. Love you brother!

  384. Alex says:

    Josh, welcome to my world. Folks make fun of my abuse and my brother’s abuse all the time and question my truthfulness and mock me and call me names and call me a liar etc etc.

    It can suck, it offends my wife and kids and those who love me, etc. Such is this life, such is the church, etc.

  385. Alex, you just admitted to doing what you condemn others for doing. Congrats.

  386. Alex says:

    It’s especially offensive when it is the main Guru/Prophet himself and then many of his minion CC pastors who do similar mocking and name-calling and question my truthfulness etc etc. No fun, is it?

    It’s given me thick skin. I rarely (if ever) cry about it. I simply fight back.

  387. Alex, congrats. Count yourself among the abusers.

  388. Alex says:

    Josh, you may have missed my post further up the thread where I described how the Abuse done to me (and the Abuse I witnessed) has changed me. I cope the best I can, in as healthy a manner as I can. I am a fighter and I have a hard time turning the other cheek. Guilty as charged. But, much better than how many cope with it (who are in prison for violent crime, drug use, repeating the child abuse etc).

    I wish someone would wave a magic wand and make me 100% better and unaffected, but that doesn’t seem to be reality.

  389. Alex says:

    Josh, you did the same thing as well. Count yourself among them too.

  390. Grow up Pee Wee Herman.

  391. Alex says:

    In fact, I don’t really know many on here who ‘turn the other cheek’ consistently. Everyone seems to want blood and justice when they are personally offended.

  392. Alex says:

    “Grow up Pee Wee Herman.”

    Yes, I understand your lashing back. It’s a by-product of the abuse you endured and I get that. I see you in a different light now that your story of abuse is remembered by me.

    I was a jerk to you and I apologize again. I don’t blame you for being mad at me. I’ll try to be more gracious toward you in the future.

  393. Hey Alex. You made fun of a guy who had an aneurysm. You lose.

  394. Alex says:

    Yep, I lost Josh. I was wrong.

  395. “I’ll try to be more gracious toward you in the future.”

    Don’t bother. Your words mean nothing to me, good or bad.

  396. erunner says:

    Papias, I literally went my whole life without veggies. I have never liked them and I never had a fondness for raw ones either. I have had uncontrollable cravings for sweets my whole life which made me feel like an addict.

    Weight loss is a good step in the right direction. I’m so sold on the smoothie regimen I wish all diabetics could do it. It requires an investment in a good blender. My mom helped me get a top of the line Vitamix which is the best. It helps you lose weight as smoothies are low in calories but it helps you address your blood sugar levels. If you can ever get to a Costco to see a Vitamix demonstrated you’d be blown away. You can also look on-line and see. Vitamix isn’t the only blender that can do this. As far as exercise… have more kids!! 🙂 God bless!

  397. erunner says:

    Bob, Love you too brother. Come and pastor here in BuenO Park!!

  398. erunner says:

    MLD, Gotta uphold the new rep!! 🙂