Mar 252015
 

Whenever this guy starts to speak, I keep expecting him to yell for Norton…

I digress…

[youtube]https://youtu.be/VE7nt3dFQ-0[/youtube]

Prasch begins this dissertation with a long bloviation about prophets and how he really isn’t one but the implication is that he really is.

It’s an old trick, but it works well on this audience.

He “prophesied” that there would be problems in Calvary Chapel after Chuck Smith died.

I once prophesied that it would rain in Oregon.

It’s a gift I suppose…

He states that these problems would have not happened if a man “everyone respects” like Joe Focht of Philadelphia had been Smith’s successor.

There is a problem with this.

Many in the movement think Focht is a legalistic fossil who is a few fries short of a Happy Meal.

He is one of the leaders of the old guard along with Dandy Don McClure who is paid to administer the CCA… two days a week.

A man has to make a living…

He then moves on to the family lawsuit as proof of these problems.

The lawsuit filed by a family member who is now having the lawsuit re-written so it’s not hooted out of court.

Make your own application….

He then goes on to claim that many in the movement are now “seeker sensitive” and others are following after Mark Driscoll.

It is also alleged that the progressives in the movement pull the toilet paper from the top, rather than the bottom…a sure sign of apostasy.

That was actually a funny I added, but the rest of his speech is a joke as well.

The only thing Flintstone Prasch got right is that the show is over.

Costa Mesa is going to do what it wants and so is everyone else.

If Prasch was a prophet he would have spoken out against the moral and ethical charges we and others have been bringing for years.

That would have cut into those lecture fees though…just as this nonsense will guarantee some.

and awaaaay we go…

  167 Responses to “Jacob Prasch Is Not A Prophet”

  1. WILMA!!!

  2. I realize that most of my readers will miss the Gleason references…

  3. Scott,

    Exactly… 😉

  4. I wonder if poking fun at his appearance ( though I confess I cracked a grin & even chortled at the digs, guys), distracts from the overall critique of the Prasch video. After all, he can’t change his basic physical attributes, but there’s still hope for his heart & mind 😉

  5. Then again being compared to Jackie Gleason & Fred Flintstone ain’t such a bad thing……

  6. Anne,

    You’re probably right…but I took artistic license to portray this buffoonery as accurately as it is.

  7. You did a great job of illustrating his buffoonery and prophetic gifts – sitting through 18 min I can’t bring myself to watch. It’s not many people whose commentary I trust on the internet enough not to double check what they’re commenting on myself 🙂

  8. Thank you, Anne. 🙂

  9. He was a genius…and those shows would never fly today.
    Thanks BD, for showing the younger ones what I was talking about…

  10. Love Ralph Cramden and Fred Flintstone! Prasch’s imitation…not so much. When I first saw the title of this post, all I could think was, “Not again!”

  11. Well motive aside, I agreed with most of what he said. Although we may have to check this off to better late than never, I do think it is a word the CC pastors need to hear.

    What better message than keep you doctrine sound and your pants on?

  12. How sweeeet it is!

  13. MLD,

    Its a bunch of bullspit.
    I don’t know of any CC that’s changed since Chuck died other than Costa Mesa.

  14. Hey Michel,
    Please extend an invitation to Jackie Alnor. I promise to stay away.

    =)

  15. CK,

    It’s a money thing.
    He invoked the names of all the hardliners so everyone knows which side he’s taken…and that side can invite him to spew, er, speak.

  16. Fortunately all understand what “keep your pants on” means, even those who don’t seem to be able to do so. Determining sound doctrine and what it means to keep it, now that’s a conundrum.

  17. Hot diggity dog! I just realized we’ve almost got a “Nite Crew” going on here!

  18. Gman,

    I’m sure Jackie will see it and she probably won’t agree.
    That’s ok…her and I have worked through a lot and I count her a friend.
    We agree to disagree on theological matters. 🙂

  19. Anne @ 17…well said.

    This isn’t about moral issues…it’s about holding an undefined theological position to certain peoples satisfaction.

  20. Watched about 30 seconds of it and started to have a Martin Luther moment…..

  21. Dude,

    I thought about using the Luther insulter on this one myself…

  22. Actually he looks like me when I try to wear a tie but I am working on what hair I have left. I apologize that I could not listen to the entire clip, I got through about the first ten seconds.

  23. This guy talks like a lot of “Floridians”.

  24. I think there is something to be said in this message where we need to separate the pure from the vile. As much as I think Prasch has some skewed perspectives, I think he had a few things to say.

    God is looking to do a fresh work in house churches and smaller, independent congregations. I think he is right, and hope that is the case. Let the celebrities pander to the masses, I want to minister to the individuals and see them walk the path of discipleship.

  25. YABBA-DABBA-DOO

  26. I think Prasch is right on in his assessment of all things CC and your snark remarks about his physical appearance is a shallow attempt in order to discredit the messenger…

    I remember reading about some boys who once mocked a Prophet by calling him, “Old Baldy” until a hungry bear shut them up…

    Can you say before man and God that Jacob Prasch IS a false Prophet?

  27. Michael,

    What a great way to start my day….with my dear old friend Jacob. Loved the Gleason stuff 🙂

    Prophets don’t generally prophesy in hindsight do they?

  28. I’m glad you see so clearly, Michael.

    Especially re: toilet paper coming from the top.

  29. Michael,
    You can judge his motives all you want (I can’t because I am teaching Matt 7 this week.)
    But as I said, he may be a goofy cartoonish character, but he still addresses your 10 yr old beef with CC;
    “keep you doctrine sound and your pants on.” I should add that he also addressed keeping their hands out of the cookie jar.

  30. But if we are going to address false prophets we should really be going after the REAL false prophets … and I am surprised that you haven’t or don’t.

    The New Apostolic Reformation is on the verge of tearing the church apart from the inside as they continue to attack those who refuse to go back to placing the church under full Apostolic and Prophetic offices.

    Full danger warning!, they are sucking people and and their scope is huge,

  31. “keep you doctrine sound and your pants on.” I should add that he also addressed keeping their hands out of the cookie jar.”

    I do agree with that part.

    Prasch seems sincere and passionate and at least his cause is somewhat good in the sense that MLD points out…but I agree with Michael, he is no prophet. He is not ‘specially anointed’ and neither are any CC pastors.

    Prasch did predict some things, but they are similar to what me, Michael and many others have predicted based on analysis and understanding the dynamics of the situation at CC and knowing human nature and observing the Trend in activism and whistle-blowing etc.

    Not the stuff of “prophets”…more the stuff of consistent observers and good analysis of socio-political-economic Trends.

    Prasch doesn’t raise my ire, he’s not getting rich off of selling the supposedly “free” Gospel…and I’ve never heard him accused of being abusive to kids or followers etc.

    He sincerely believes (wrongly) that the problems in CC are linked to bad doctrine and ecumenism….no, that is not the case.

    His list of Good CC guys includes Raul Ries…yikes. The Ries Faction of CC is one of the most corrupt and abusive in the CC System…and it’s not their doctrine, that is meaningless…it’s that they lie and are corrupt and that corruption is perpetuated and passed down in example and then they circle the wagons and protect the corruption.

    No, Prasch is no prophet…and that his Good List includes Ries is very telling.

  32. Michael said, “If Prasch was a prophet he would have spoken out against the moral and ethical charges we and others have been bringing for years.”

    Very much agree. From what I read of the supposed real prophets of the OT, they were consistently critical of their own Group.

    Today’s faux-prophets are consistently critical of their enemies and their competition.

  33. The New Apostolic Reformation is a phrase that was coined by C Peter Wagner in his book Churchquake, 1999 … the flagship church illustrating the NAR characteristics was … drum roll…. Calvary Chapel and Chuck Smith.

    The book that illustrated these churches was called New Apostolic Churches 1998, and the lead church highlighted was … drumroll … Bill Hybels and Willow Creek.

    I am not sure who the NAR is attacking and for what. I am sure that the churches I just named are not considered part of the dangerous NAR but rather the churches that are charismatic are the ones considered troublesome

    So MLD what is troubling you?

  34. wall on the fly,

    The only church that changed at all was Costa Mesa…who got rid of a bad worship team and started doing repairs Chuck put off.

    The idea that some were drifting toward Mars Hill is hysterical.
    Bob Coy was cheating before Chuck died.

    This was a political statement raising the same boogie men that Focht and McClure are making up out of whole cloth.

    Most Calvary Chapels are not “mega-churches” and this guy is not a prophet.

    These guys are just afraid some guy might read a book and learn something.

  35. Let me be more specific.
    This is the standard anti-Calvinism, hate Rick Warren, hammer on the end times stuff.

    That’s considered, “back to the Bible”.

  36. Michael, I get that but what I don’t get is why you as pastor make fun of how Jacob looks just because he is nerdy, fat and ugly???

  37. Well, that video provided for some good entertainment, at the very least. How convenient how Prasch says near the beginning of the video that true prophets don’t go around claiming to be prophets, and then he goes onto to emphasize several times throughout the rest of the video that he, himself, is not claiming to be a prophet. Silly little games.

  38. So Bob Coy was purpose driven and seeker sensitive and wouldn’t you know it, he also fell into serial adultery. Shame on all that purpose driven and seeker sensitive theology telling him that adultery was okay. Heck, I wouldn’t be surprised if Rick Warren, himself, was the one who introduced Coy to all the women he sinned with.

  39. It never ceases to amaze me why someone who does not fellowship in a CC, has little respect for most of the “founding fathers” of CC, does not agree with much of the doctrine of CC, and never missed an opportunity to mock CC, is so obsessed with everything CC. Michael you know by now you have no influence in CC so give it up already!

  40. wall on the fly,

    I never used the words you did.
    I simply made the comparisons that anyone who watched tv in the sixties would make.
    Pastors are no different from anyone else.

  41. Polo,

    Stick it, said the pastor.

    I’m hardly obsessed…this is the first CC article in ages.
    I’ll let those within the movement speak to whatever influence I do or do not have…

  42. I must correct one serious error in this article, however. When examining the original patent for toilet paper, it clearly can be seen that the intent was for the toilet paper to go over, not under.

    http://watercrunch.com/2009/03/seth-wheeler-had-squares-to-spare-history-of-toilet-paper/

    Therefore the progressives are not the ones saying the toilet paper should go over. The progressive apostates, in fact, are the ones insisting that the toilet paper go under.

  43. KevinH,

    I receive the correction humbly. 🙂

  44. The over/under question should be discussed during premarital counseling. You simply correct the wrong party (under), achieve consensus, then move on to toothpaste tubes.

  45. Polo,

    Did you write Prasch and ask him why he’s so obsessed with CC?

  46. Jim
    My wife says that i Totally with you. 😉
    -mike

  47. Prasch is obsessed with CC because a lot of his $$ comes from there.

    A few years back many more CC’s had him speak, but 2 that I know of personally stopped inviting him a few years back. I’m assuming they are now among those on his emergent list.

  48. Polo, that is intellectually dishonest.

    Michael was a CC pastor, he was a part of CC and is still a part of CC as watchdog who reports on CC issues. Like it or not, he’s in your family to a large degree. He has many CC pastor friends and he is still influential whether you acknowledge it or not.

    I am also a product of Calvary Chapel. It is something that is a part of me, even though there is much of it I don’t like. However, there is still a part of me that holds a fondness for the Group as there are some good folks in it and there are some good things the Group does.

  49. You get to pick your friends…but you don’t get to pick your Family…and like it or not all those folks who Calvary Chapel embraced as sons and daughters at one time…who were then betrayed by the Church that said they loved them…are still part of your Family in some regard.

  50. I thought you got to pick your nose but you can’t pick your friends? 😉

  51. Speaking of prophetic things, yesterday on the Church calender was the conception of Jesus.

  52. Wow MLK, your church was there that night?

  53. I don’t think you have to be a prophet to see what God is doing and then say, “Hey, God is doing _______.” There are many in the church who are real clear about what God is doing in some areas.

  54. “Wow MLK, your church was there that night?”
    No, but we read about it in the Bible. You should give that a try. And who said anything about “Night”? – are you claiming some special knowledge?

    But hey – it’s 9 months before Dec 25th. Does your church just ignore such historical events – no acknowledgment of the angel coming to Mary?

  55. Alex everything I said in my post was true,except maybe the word “obsessed”. Please point out which facts I stated are not facts

  56. Michael continually questions why I remain here if I’m in such disagreement with the host. I’m just giving tit for tat asking why he continues to concern himself with CC if he’s in such disagreement with thier leadership

  57. Mark,

    That would be because there are real life consequences to CC actions.
    It would also be because I have much better sources and many more friends in CC circles than you do.

    I find this fascinating.
    I banned you, yet you are determined to post anyway.
    Why are you so obsessed with me, Mark?

  58. I disagree. This fellow most resembles my Hebrew school principal..the guy who popped me eating Jujubes during junior congregation service on the Sabbath.

    Whoever called out Michael for reducing Jacob to a mere caricature, or cartoon character, was right to do so. I personally was so convicted of this heinous act that I am now officially apologizing for saying Bob Grenier looked like Wilson on Castaway.

    Whew. I feel so much better. Now about Alex G looking like Beevis…..

  59. Mark,

    Which leadership?
    Brodersen and friends or Focht and friends.
    You know, that split you denied exists that you seem to affirm now.
    Can Polo affirm and Mark deny?
    You’re a hoot…

  60. Jeff,

    Good to see you as always… 🙂

  61. One day Dorothy…err Polo…you need to go behind the curtain and see the truth re: the “founding fathers”…err Wizard. I assure you accountability is either low or not on the list.

  62. Jeff,

    Marco Polo doesn’t believe any bad thing has ever or will ever be done by anyone with a dove on the wall.
    He is emotionally incapable of dealing with the truths I’ve presented over the years so he screams louder each time I write to make the bad man go away.
    It’s rank idolatry and utterly dishonest, but he sneaks back on to scream at me occasionally.

  63. Jeff,

    I do need to converse with you at some point convenient to you.

  64. Michael you are a guy who mocks and criticizes others and then lashes out like a petulant child when anyone dares to criticize you. You play favorites by applying inconsistent stds and rules depending on the poster. Even when I’ve tried to civilly engage here you’ve mocked me with arrogant condescension. Ive never maintained that all CC are innocent. And you know that so to say otherwise you are the dishonest one. And regardless of how many more “friends” you have than me in CC you still disagree with and mock most of the CC Distinctives. Course you’ll claim there is no such thing

  65. Mark,

    I let you have one last word.

    I banned you for good reason and I have done so with this IP address as well.
    Good job getting around moderation though…you must really be obsessed with me.

  66. Bob Grenier looked like Wilson on Castaway.

    And Ted Cruz=Mr. Haney

  67. Well then, who looks like Floyd the barber? Michael, next week is good for me as i will have a new puppy to care for and train. Then I will fatten him up and eat him. Alex has my cell phone, unless it starts with (510) which is outdated.

  68. Let’s be very real and call an ace an ace and a spade a spade.

    Chuck Smith was greedy deep down in his own personal life.

    “Gasp” some may have thought reading this, “No not Chuck Smith, he was perfect in every way”.

    He was never content with ample sufficiency, he always wanted more to his own benefit.

    Take for instance the time his boat had sunk to the bottom of lake arrowhead during a rough winter.

    He pulled it up and had to rewire it.

    He obtained his new wire at a local source only to be told by a neighbor that the wire was a nickel cheaper at another source.

    So he goes back to his source and returns his wire and drives all the way to the other source to get the wire for a nickel cheaper.

    It was in his heart to prosper personally.

    He was not going to let the other guy at the first source of his wire prosper by one thin nickel, no sir.

    This was in his heart, it was the revealing of the reality of his true nature.

    There are many other instances that could be recited to show the man’s heart.

    He gathered to himself much to his prosperity, even sadly sometimes at the expense of the other guy.

    Now, because he was never content with ample sufficiency, his family members left behind are fighting each other to get what he had amassed unto himself and had to leave behind because as we all know you can’t take it with you.

    Fish rots from the head down.

    His family obviously is exactly just like him, how could it be otherwise.

    Now they fight each other to amass to themselves just as they have been taught to do by example of their patriarch.

    Draw your own conclusion…

    God’s heart is grieved as He watches His own people seeking after other things than Himself.

    He knows that only HE is the true spring of living water.

    He created man with an unquenchable need for Him, and we were designed in a way that we require Him ultimately and Him alone.

    He knew that nothing of our own devices would ever satisfy the genuine longing that He put in our heart for Him, yet here He is, watching His beloved children attempt do just that…

    – See more at:

    http://shekinahfellowship.blogspot.com/#sthash.H4nKF9nr.dpuf

  69. “Chuck Smith was greedy…..
    He obtained his new wire at a local source only to be told by a neighbor that the wire was a nickel cheaper at another source.
    So he goes back to his source and returns his wire and drives all the way to the other source to get the wire for a nickel cheaper.” that’s not greed, that’s short sighted stupidity – must have been more to the story – it’s good to bring down idols, call out hypocrisy, but don’t forget grace…

    i’m thinking that anyone with any Bible knowledge would not want to claim to being a prophet considering a real prophet of God’s lot in life

  70. I disagree with JB.

    There is a big difference between Cheap/Frugal and Greedy.

    By all accounts…and I’ve had extensive communication with his family (both factions) and from many insiders who knew him well.

    Chuck may have been cheap/frugal, but he was not greedy. Big difference.

  71. Sheck, hello my friend.

    I was wondering if you choked on a bagel and left us 🙂

    Good to “see” you online.

    I’ll have to call you soon and fill you in on all the latest.

  72. Chuck didn’t really leave a lot of wealth…he left intellectual property and he left control of CCCM.

    Brodersen grabbed CCCM and the other part of the family will probably get the intellectual property rights.

    Sheck can correct me if I’m wrong, but Penfold Communications has the radio assets and that is controlled by Jeff Smith.

    There are two The Word For Today’s…one is controlled by CCCM and the other by Janette Smith, Paul Smith and Jeff Smith.

    The battle within the battle is for Chuck’s intellectual property…his sermons, etc.

    From what I’ve read and been told, it looks like the Janette, Paul, Jeff Smith crew has the stronger case to win control of the IP…while Brodersen pretty much has the lock on CCCM and Jeff Smith already has control of Penfold.

  73. I should probably write an article explaining the nuance about that situation…I’ll have to get with Sheck a few others and make sure my recollection of the different pieces and parts is correct.

  74. If you are going to crucify a man by name put your own name in the box. That is one of the lessons I have learned here. Often by not doing so but for a very long time I have tried to be clear about who I am.

    alan hawkins

  75. MLD,

    Anyone who is Lutheran obviously believes at least one apostle arose after the canon of scripture was written. To assert otherwise is to deny the obvious.

    I am listening to Mefferd this author really doesn’t understand the matter at all. I have his two books and his understanding is his own caricature.

    I have NEVER encountered those who claim their authority cannot be challenged. This guy makes himself to be a clown. Don’t make sweeping claims about things you do not understand.

    I laugh because she claims the NAR violates sola scriptura … a nice Lutheran doctrine that was not held widely before Luther… who apparently had a divine revelation that the authority of the church was invalid. So all this really establishes is that Luther not Wagner is the real apostle. So this is laughable.

    Janet should simply have some of the so-called leaders of the NAR on to attest to their own views.

    I live with these people and I do not recognize this simpleton and his caricatures. I can write a much better critique and actually point out the real weaknesses of the movement. This guy simply doesn’t know what he is talking about.

    MLD it is so amazing for you to try to expose this. Your spiritual father is the real father of this movement.

    Now she moves to eschatology… at that point he gets more realistic. As an amillennialist NAR pastor I am at least appreciative that he understands there is no consensus.

    The Seven Mountain mandate is basically a reworked postmillennialism … and at points it is a reworked dominionism… good ole presbyterianism.

  76. Alex,

    When a person can do right by children who have provided adequate evidence of alleged abuse that warrants a thorough and unbiased investigation, but does not put the wheels in motion to do and leaves this earth leaving it undone as well as not being clear on what is to become of the assets and other properties left behind, I would say that not only is this greedy (selling out the children), but also (given his business sense and education) most negligent and unconcerned except for what comforts he enjoyed personally while on this earth.

    It’s not the amount he did or did not have when he left, it is what he did to get it, to keep it, to enjoy it and at what/whose expense, in terms of abuse of any type was tossed under the bus, to make sure not one dime was placed in jeopardy as long as he could claim that it belonged to him.

  77. No one in the movement has an attitude that they are speaking for God and we must obey. That is pure poppycock.

    Here are his concerns
    1. Authoritarianism that takes away from individualism– very interesting
    2. Come under authoritarian government of these leaders— he is likening this movement to the shepherding movement .. nothing shows his ignorance more profoundly–
    3. They promise things they cannot deliver… On this I will say it does happen… Charismatic always overpromise and this is not new to NAR
    4. Their influence through the seven mountain strategy… that is also complete poppycock.

    These are his four major points. He cannot make his points.

    Here is his stuff about prophetic words
    Does it check out with scripture?
    Is this an infallible word…?
    How specific is the word so it can be tested…?
    Remember that God will bless you dependance on scripture…?

    Nothing wrong with his questions but he has a very flat and uninformed view of how this stuff works in our lives and our teaching.
    Once again as an insider the dude has no clue what he is talking about.

    Thanks for calling me into the 21st century where all I got was a lesson on the 16th century

  78. For the record
    Sola Scriptura is not a universal protestant dogma … I think JM knows that or at least should.

  79. I have to say this is a very compelling critique …

    http://catholicapologetics.info/apologetics/protestantism/sola.htm

  80. If anyone reads this stuff it is my response to JMefferd and MLD … Medford’s guest was a woefully misinformed of how things work in the real world. He clearly has read materials but he does not know what he is talking about. As for JM she is straight forward protestantism with a narrowed view that omits Methodism and Anglicanism with their views of prima scriptura … which I think was what Luther was himself.

    The claim of sola scriptura can only come from one who has no rivals on interpretation and he had none that could stand against him … not by force of argument but by force of person.

  81. MLD I have read the Book… where is it written He was born on Dec 24th?

  82. Greediness can also come in the form of power and control.

    I think the Moses model and CS Distinctives created construct or foundation that would assure that there would be little of no accountability to hold CS or anyone else he chose to mirror him, in check. Going from one vendor to another was not to save the nickel per whatever. Likely, it had more to do with a control issue and the principle he may have held towards letting anyone profit one dime if he could get it less from elsewhere. Of course, no doubt he put his own spin on this, as if he was being robbed or scam for something he could get cheaper elsewhere. His pride, ego, and narcissism (self-importance) caused him to burn it up in gas to get from point A to point B. No difference than the chairs that elders had an issue with when he decided he would not be the “hireling” for anyone, but instead would run the show himself. And he did—all the way to his death and left a lot undone intentionally—–don’t even think he didn’t have time to do otherwise. Chuck was not short-sighted, stupid, or naïve. He knew people and he knew his family, along with knowing the “boys.” He taught each of them well, unknowingly to them thinking so much more of him than themselves and their ability to reason, read, and to do that which right, instead of what was convenient and less transparent to those deemed lesser than they, and even more so than CS.

    So he gave the Penfold to Jeff—-and so? Smoke and Mirrors = Distinctives/Moses Model.

    http://www.thesaurus.com/browse/Greediness

  83. Wall on the fly,
    1.) I don’t know anyone who says Jesus was born on Dec 24th – I don’t even know anyone who observes Dec 24th as the day of Jesus’ birth
    2.) The point wasn’t the date but that there is a yearly observance of his conception – the annunciation to Mary.
    3.) Most people don’t realize that Dec 25th was set as the birthday of Jesus by placing it 9 months after the annunciation.

  84. Babs, I don’t know how you mad the Sola the main point – but nice misdirection from the conversation.

    Did you miss the point of living day Apostles and Prophets for whom the worldwide church is to be submissive? NOT little “a” apostles or some form of little “p” prophets, but the full blown Elijah and Paul stuff.

    We see no continuation of these offices past a certain point in the scriptures. Timothy was told by Paul to go out and make pastors – he was not given instruction nor did anyone leave instruction to make Apostles or Prophets.

    Here is a more pointed interview – 1st hour of the program
    http://www.str.org/podcasts/weekly-audio/doug-geivett-the-new-apostolic-reformation-february-24-2015#.VRVLLeH3iSo

  85. May have forgotten ephesians 4 11

  86. MLD,

    I have been through the man’s book and have listened to him be interviewed. I also live inside this movement. He does not know what he is talking about. What he is describing does not exist on the ground.

  87. MLD

    As per misdirection, I was listening to the podcast, Mefferd made sola the point, I mused that the person to elevate sola was your super apostle … MLD you are a fantastic apologist for your position but your position is a fantastic open door to the present dilemma,

    Luther is the one who challenged the presence of apostleship, Luther is the one who led the charge on re-establishing authority. Luther was far more a challenge to historic orthodoxy than these little NAR guys who don’t claim near as much for themselves as Lutherans claim for Luther

    I did not miss your ELIJAH and PAUL point i denied it and claimed that none of these current crop come close to Luther in these very categories. I do not claim that you guys are trying to make more apostles and prophets. You believe aptly in the 12, the 1, Paul and the guy in the 16th century. Luther is the guy who established a new theology, a new basis of authority, a critique of the canon and a complete re-formation of the church. I see Luther nowhere prophesied in the canon of scripture but there he is…the super apostolic father of your faith.

  88. I was under much more pressure to conform to authority in a denominational structure than I have ever experienced in an apostolic structure. In the denomination dissent was squashed by all kinds of strictures and coercions. Dissent has never been squashed in apostolic structures where free affiliation is the rule of the day.

    Creedal restrictions abound in Lutheran, and increasingly in Baptist circles, no such things occur in apostolic communities.

    All that is going on is that Protestants are losing more market share and that always garners attention from the authority police.

    **The New Apostolic Reformation is on the verge of tearing the church apart from the inside as they continue to attack those who refuse to go back to placing the church under full Apostolic and Prophetic offices.**

    Once again the argument is amusing from a Lutheran. When my father died the local Lutheran pastor was in a dilemma because he could not share a service with me. Which of us was under coercive authority? Which had apostolic governance that dictated terms? What is all this hand-wringing about?

  89. Babs – Luther was never more than a small town pastor with a pen. He never took authority over anyone. In fact, you find very little from Luther on church structure and he always lived at a time when the state ran the churches.

    Look, you believe the Sola as much as I do. So when someone gets up in your church or mine and says “thus says the Lord” – how do we check it out?
    1.) just believe him
    2.) its a 50/50 chance he’s right or the Bible is right so flip a coin
    3.) check him out against scripture and see if his “thus says the Lord” matches up. If his “thus says the Lord” does not match scripture, point and laugh at him.

    I choose to follow #3 as I am sure you are. The Sola only means as a standard to check and trust, go to scripture as your final authority. When in doubt check it out.

  90. Ah,

    MLD, you now tell us how it really works out … on the ground. i agree. Primacy always goes to the text, but that is true in the NAR as well.

    You sounded an alarm about where i live (context) I responded. That is all. I still maintain that Lutheranism is far more apostolic than the group I run with.

    The real controversy is over the function of prophetic gifting. That is a big subject and there is not one solo answer. The one thing sure is that we challenge cessationism and never give in on the point because it is a theory and not a biblical teaching or a fact.

  91. Baba – a couple of points then I have to drive to work.
    I don’t know why you couldn’t share a service at your fathers funeral – you ARE a baptized Lutheran.
    Now, if you told the pastor that he is a fraud for following a power hungry Luther and that you don’t believe the things he taught during the reformation and you told him that the sacraments as practiced by Lutherans were a waste of time – perhaps you gave him pause.

    To the other, your objection to what Luther did during the reformation, am I to assume you believe;
    1.) selling indulgences was OK or at least no harm no foul?
    2.) that the congregation should only be served the bread and the bread & wine reserved for the clergy
    3.) that you believe that a person must first pony up some works before being saved.
    4.) that the word itself should be hidden from people and no in the common language
    5.) that papal authority was on very weak ground at best.

  92. “Lutheranism is far more apostolic than the group I run with.”

    I can name you living Apostles – can you name mine? 😉

  93. MLD,

    As per usual clever…

    Those things are not under discussion, apostolic authority was.

    All I did was show up at my grieving mother’s house and talk with the Lutheran pastor, he laid aside the church’s requirement for his own participation in the service because he was kind enough to see the rules as irrelevant and without application.

    We both showed honor to each other, but he was certain that his church did not sanction his participation in a public service with me as I am NOT Lutheran by choice and conviction and have been baptized like my anabaptist forefathers.

  94. My living apostles are easy to identify.

    Yours died in the first century, rose again in the 16th.

    Have a nice day MLD and quit worrying about my clans, we are of no consequence. 😉

  95. “baba” — nice little tweak

    Padre Dread

  96. Let’s see…

    MLD, by his own admission, is the president (or something like it) a his church. Hmmm???

    MLD you have mastered the four fundamentals of good leadership.

    1. Instill fear.
    2. Use sarcasm.
    3. Use ridicule.
    4. Finally intimidate.

    Yep by all measures you must be a great church president.

    Are you sure you’re not a CC pastor? (Sorry CC pastors for the hit)

  97. Bob – who did I scare and who did I intimidate?
    I made no personal attacks on Babs or his theology. I didn’t even address him or imply he was a part of this.

    The concern is not mine alone – listen to the podcast I posted this morning.

    If you believe that modern day living Apostles & Prophets are biblical – fine. But I did have an experience this morning. I was late leaving the house due to the above conversation, so I had to take the toll road to my office. Driving up the 73 in Aliso Viejo I passed Benny Hinns headquarters and when I got to Costa Mesa and got off on Bear, I passed the TBN studio and headquarters.

    Although you may not, I have issues with them also. But, I guess we must be nice and not speak of differences and apostasy.

  98. Babs – ““baba” — nice little tweak”

    Not a tweek at all – 100% result of my 23 WPM speed typing in a dimly lit room 🙂

  99. Just wanted to give an update:

    Jacob Prasch…still not a prophet.

    Carry on.

  100. Well, I think all your sects are crazy and not the real deal.

    The Amish…they have it right. 🙂

  101. Apostles.

    EO and RC clergy (and probably others, such and the Anglicans) claim Apostolic Succession and are charged with maintaining the deposit of faith that has been handed down (“traditioned”) from the original NT Apostles. These men do not consider themselves to be apostles, though.

    There is more to Apostolic Succession than just an unbroken line of succession that leads back to the Twelve. Correct Apostolic teaching must also be maintained for Apostolic Succession to be considered valid. Even if you can trace your line of clergy all the way back to St. Peter himself, if you are teaching heresy you do not have Apostolic Succession.

    This is not in reference to anything anyone here has said. I am just explaining how my Church views Apostleship. We do not believe there are modern-day Apostles but we do believe we have successors to the Apostles.

  102. As an observer with no dog in the fight:

    RCC or EO has the strongest case for Apostolic Succession, by far.

    But since no sects’ “Apostles” can demonstrate real legitimate verifiable supernatural miracles today…no one has the goods. Not like the New Testament.

  103. Just think what this blog would be like if MLD could type at 60 WPM!

  104. “Just think what this blog would be like if MLD could type at 60 WPM!”

    It would be 3 times as ignorant?

  105. …that wasn’t me, it was the Luther Insulter app 🙂

  106. Alex,

    I would maintain that the extant reports of miracles are as good as the text of scripture in some cases and there is no reason to believe on without the other. Methinks you are on a slope sliding into believing neither.

    The links posted by MLD led to an endorsement of Keener’s work, oddly Keener would advocate for those being derided by MLD’s links when it pertains to miracles.

    http://amzn.to/1FZJiWU

  107. I appreciate a lot of what MLD has to say.

    Not all of it, of course.

    And you Alex, you ask questions that many of us wonder about in private but are afraid to voice in public. So I appreciate you, too, even though I do not share you enthusiasm for logic.

  108. The claims Babs makes about Luther holding some type of Apostolic position is funny. In Lutheranism, the laity makes commitment to Luther’s Small Catechism and the clergy to the Book of Concord – of which Luther wrote only the small and large catechisms and the Smalcald Articles. That’s it – if you want you can be Lutheran and reject or ignore all the other writings.

    Also, the 95 theses were not a religious writing but a 16th political action statement.

  109. There are hundreds of miracles documented in the annals of Orthodoxy but since many of them involve the intercession of Saints and other “Catholicky” stuff I won’t present them here for ridicule. But they are good enough for me.

  110. Dreadly, what is the miracle-success-rate of your Apostles?

    1. I cannot find any verifiable miracles, none that pass even a little level of scientific scrutiny.

    2. Assuming there are a couple of them out there…what percentage of miracle-success would your Apostles have? .001%? They seem to dole out a lot of miracle-power that doesn’t take for some reason…even with a few anecdotal claims that cannot be verified independently.

    3. New Testament seems to show a much higher rate of miracle-success for real Apostles….

  111. X. the Lourdes Miracles stopped…right around the time the medical community started paying attention them and debunking them after finding zero evidence that they were legit.

  112. Alex, Lourdes (and Fatima and Medjugorje) are Roman Catholic, not Orthodox, phenomena. I am not making any claims for what goes on in the RC household.

  113. Miracles do not prove or disprove scriptures.

    But I am with Alex – NAR says that miracles are for proving the scriptures and bringing people to Christ. I invite them to LA Children’s hospital.

    Benny Hinn is in the hospital – i wonder if he is the only one on his floor now – did everyone heal and go home? 😉

  114. I am always open to evidence. I would love to see a real miracle.

    Heck, I even investigated the occult (NOTE “investigated” NOT participated and NOT agreeing with the occult and NOT following the occult, just looked into claims of supernatural occurrences). Not one legit supernatural occurrence, all tricks and gimics and anecdotal. No solid evidence.

    Same goes for Charismatic claims, RCC claims (though there appear to be some *miracles from Lourdes but they had to water-down their definitions and really caveat the heck out of it to claim a few).

    Are their unexplainable anomalies? Yes. Are their New Testament-like accounts where someone walks on water or turns water into wine…something that cannot be explained unless it is an illusion? No, none of those types. Any shriveled hands or amputated limbs being restored in plain sight? Nope. Just medical anomalies…and only a very small handful of those.

  115. MLD, good point.

    If I really truly believed I had “Apostle Miracle Powers!” why would I only use that supposed power at my own church rallies where I solicit money and followers…but I wouldn’t go volunteer at the many Children’s Hospitals and heal all those poor sick kids?

    What would Jesus do? Jesus healed the masses out of compassion…not to solicit money and build a following.

    Very telling….

  116. The VERY WEAKEST argument among all the different Christian sects is the claim of real miracles because you can’t believe your lying eyes….

  117. I think you may have to believe in miracles before you see them and I don’t think they are always about physical healings.

  118. Alex,

    MLD’s source and I myself invite you to read the book I posted. If that is not evidence you can accept then the reality is that you will accept no evidence. I suspect that is close to the truth. I can post all kinds of evidentiary stuff for you but again, your criterion is probably nothing less than your own eye test.

    As for the success rate …you have no idea what the success rate of the apostles was since we do not have such records. Failed attempts would be unlikely to find much room in the script. I am an agnostic about apostolic success or failure in healing. I do not know.

    MLD @116 simply records again his woeful ignorance about what he is talking about. There is no such thing as an NAR that claims anything in a monolithic way. It doesn’t exist. When you can make statements that declare definitively what NAR claims then you have found Sasquatch … qualify your statements for better results.

  119. Another point:

    Mormons, Muslims, Jews, Buddhists…all claim similar miracles…are their miracles legit?

    Christians are very skeptical of everyone else’s supposed “miracles”…but not their own.

  120. Alex

    Here is a scientific study

    http://amzn.to/1Bu4iii

    there is some evidence there … and you will be glad to know it is mixed. Like real life

  121. Dread, are the Mormon “miracles” real? They present similar evidence.

    If you accept them as real miracles…are they Apostles?

    Or, is that the devil? (I’m guessing that is the fall-back position to explain exactly the same miracles with exactly the same “evidence”…)

  122. The Apostles themselves could not cast the demon out of the man described in Matthew 17.

    That kind only came out through prayer and fasting.

    Fasting…..

  123. Alex

    Don’t test me on miracles … you guys brought the subject up
    I didnt make a single claim about miracles until you guys raised it
    Then I just offered testimony in research

    That is all. I have not made any claims about miracles.

  124. Dread, it might surprise you that I agree that “prayer” and positive or hopeful thinking does produce *miracles…but not miracles.

    Yes, the mind is very powerful…and it is scientifically proven that being optimistic and positive and really believing things will be better “can” have a therapeutic effect and “heal”…it is demonstrated time and again…in many faiths, many practices (yoga, eastern mysticism etc) outside of Christianity.

    It is purely a psychological/biological reality of Placebo Effect in action.

  125. Alex,

    Again, you give me a series of questions about things I have not asserted. I am not the dummy that falls into obvious traps… you got the wrong guy.

    I never asserted anything about the devil and miracles, never asserted even that miracles were a proof of either scripture or apostleship.

    Now Jesus did assert that his miracles validated him… I will stand with that.

    As for Mormonism… I grow more convinced all the time that you are Mormon as you always seem to find them as your fall back position 😉

  126. Placebo Effect and Positive Thinking and Optimism and Hope…can be very powerful medicines…THAT is scientifically proven and in evidence.

    Giving up, losing all hope, negativity…results in negative health consequences.

    That is your “miracle” dynamic in reality.

    But, think positive all you want and pray all you want…it may help you overcome an illness…but it won’t help you walk on water or turn water into wine.

  127. Alex

    You placebo claim is another evidence that you will never accept anything as evidentiary I don’t really care if you do or don’t … I have work to do

  128. Babs – “There is no such thing as an NAR that claims anything in a monolithic way.”

    I could say the same thing about Lutherans when pinned down. ELCA disagreement with some issues must now mean that there is no “Lutherans say / believe…”

  129. miracles? … a tree falls over and we say it was a miracle that it didn’t kill anyone… now, if that tree re-righted itself and produced a nice crop of pineapples that would be a blatant miracle… but i don’t think that i’d praise God for it… miracles – IMO – don’t validate God and don’t all come from God, but when He is there, there will be miracles of one kind or another – His seem to involve health, poverty, redemption… not too many silly ones… oh, i forgot the talking donkey… but that had a purpose, didn’t it?

    just sayin

  130. Yes, the mind is very powerful…and it is scientifically proven that being optimistic and positive and really believing things will be better “can” have a therapeutic effect and “heal”…<<<

    Spiritually proven, too. I recommend this book by Elder Thaddeus of Vitovnica:

    Our Thoughts Determine Our Lives

    http://tinyurl.com/ony6bps

  131. I believe in miracles – God does them all the time. Ernest Angley, not so much.

  132. I don’t think miracles are too common today because we are conditioned to rely on science and logic and this has a deadening effect on our faith unless we actively fight against it.

    But miracles are for two reasons:

    1. To strengthen the faith of the doubters
    2. To accomplish God’s purposes on Earth

  133. Isn’t it God that does that gold dust thing?

  134. MLD:

    I come after you personally because you’re the bully on the playground. If you ever pay attention to your posts they always somehow become personal attacks. If you disagree you make wild assumptions to put down the poster and fear really should have been last in the four traits because that is what happens after sarcasm, intimidation and ridicule is applied.

    Xenia:

    1. To strengthen the faith of the doubters

    I would like to think this is so, but the scriptures tell a different and real story. When people see real miracles they tend to forget about God in the end. It’s all through the text, from Genesis to Revelation. I think it’s that human tendency towards “entitlement.”

    Alex has real valid questions, but the outcome will be what he does with them. And I tend to agree there are really very few honest to goodness real miracles in life. I believe God expects us to live with all the blessings He has given us.

    You did leave out one aspect of real miracles, they are there to validate the miracle worker (think Jesus).

  135. Xenia:

    Just so you know, for me at least, Science has strengthened my faith in God. When I see the absolute complexity, detail and entwined relationships between all things in creation I can’t help but be amazed. There isn’t enough time or ability for random chance to have done any of it. Even the most simple organism know today is so vast in its complexity there is no chance it happened by an accidental cause.

    I also believe the miracle of drugs, medical care and research are all a blessing from God and should be praised. Of course, like all miracles, many of us in humanity feel entitled to such care and forget God in the end. Don’t you remember where God said to the nation of Israel what would happen after they entered the land and get all those things they didn’t work for?

  136. Bob, – “I come after you personally…” Doesn’t that make you the bully?

    Show me in this thread where I personally attacked anyone.
    1.) I stood up for what Jacob Prasch said and I was called bullspit or something
    2.) I did not participate in any of the Jackie Gleason / Fred Flintstone mockery
    3.) I brought up a concern about NAR and was promptly told all the bad things about my Lutheran history.

    So help me here brother. If i scared you I apologize.

  137. Hi Bob,

    I like the branch of science that used to be called (maybe still is) “Natural History” where you investigate the habits of plants, animals, etc. and as you say, this does strengthen one’s faith in God. And I am not ungrateful for scientific discoveries, especially in medicine. But when science tries to trump the Scriptures, I draw the line.

    I have had an ailment for many years now which until recently, “science” said was caused by certain things, which I avoided. Symptoms got worse. Now “science” says the exact opposite and I follow the new regimen. Symptoms all gone and I am fit as a fiddle. So I don’t have a lot of faith in the proclamations of science because they will be saying something completely different next year. But I am grateful for many advances in science, most especially those involving the complications of childbirth which have saved many mothers and babies.

    I am interested in birdsong and how sparrows build their nests. I am not too interested in the supposed evolution of birds, their DNA, etc.

  138. I think salad bars show evidence for God. Stand in front of one and say “all of this just comes out of the ground” . 🙂

  139. MLD:

    OK let’s start with the simplest quote:

    “Babs – you may wish to move into the 21st century”

    Every thread you post on is filled with the simple like this to the more direct, but you know that already.

    Am I a/the bully? Only if I threaten you, which I’m not obviously.

  140. Listening to Kouki …

    Well named soul …

    Really the most shallow and hollow prattling about things. Build a straw man and tear it down. Make a claim that has no reality in fact and tear it down. Accuse people of holding a position that you describe falsely… then it become dark because it is just lying.

    Lying is foundational … but it raises money. Lie about bogeymen and people will support your ministry. This dude actually claims that prophesying is not a skill that can be learned. If that is so what in the world is a school of the prophets? What are they learning? Why are they even going to school?

    He says God when he speaks is always clear… hmmm

    “Some said it thundered” Dread

  141. Well it is certainly not always clear when God speaks. Just read the OT Prophets. People have been trying to sort out what it all means for thousands of years. And then there’s Revelation….

  142. Xenia:

    I personally find DNA and its complexity a very convincing example of the existence of God. When I hear or read about how “evolution” formed DNA I just smile at the ignorance of such a concept.

    The simple logic is this:

    DNA has to have had a start, a very simple start, in the idea things wee created through the process of evolution. How or what accident caused DNA to form and then be the “programming,” so to speak, of living things? It’s fascinating to me from such coding things can grow from a single cell into an extremely complex thing.

    As far as your “science” issue with your help. Some how when people put their complete trust in science they forget the people behind it are only a small step ahead of them in knowledge. Along those lines I’m amazed at all those side effects of the drugs advertised in the media and people still take them. Is the cure better or worse than the side effect?

    The accumulated knowledge, and isn’t that somewhat science leads to, of humanity is a blessing, but it’s still not a god.

    In the scriptures it says (Genesis) that God gives man about 120 years to live. In the 20th Century Science discovered that was true. Of course it is this “discovery” which has also led to all the “T” cell debates and study. As we get older the ability for a human body to “regenerate” itself is limited to about 120 years, science proved what God had already posted.

    Isn’t God something! He just gave it straight and mankind keeps trying to find away around it.

  143. anybody able to define the difference between a miracle and a personal blessing from God… i have had so many little day in day out “miracles” – where things in the natural order of things should have gone one way, but didn’t and it was to my benefit – i thanked God for the miracle, but it was between me and Him… do those things count as miracles … or are they “just” blessings?

  144. “Lying is foundational … but it raises money.”

    Who was raising money? Calling out people’s motives is against Jesus’ teachings

  145. anybody who prances in front of an audience and calls on God for miracles is a false prophet and a stooge for the underworld – i think – dunno

  146. “Calling out people’s motives is against Jesus’ teachings” … yikes – point taken 😯

  147. X said, “Spiritually proven, too. I recommend this book by Elder Thaddeus of Vitovnica:

    Our Thoughts Determine Our Lives”

    I agree with this. This is an observable and verifiable dynamic.

    This belief is shared by many Groups…and you can see actual correlations and evidence (in general) that there is what I would consider a spiritual component that is translated to our physical existence through our mind and consciousness.

    There is verifiable evidence (in general) of physical and physiological and brain chemistry outcomes with how a person thinks, what they think, what they meditate on, what they decide to focus on etc.

    This is very much used in Cognitive Therapy in psychology because it has proven success.

    This is where “spirit” and Science intersect…and there is evidence to support the claim.

  148. For instance, if you really truly believe with all your effort and mind that you will overcome….you will overcome at some level.

    If you give in to a defeatist belief, you will be defeated.

    When I learned to face fear and to change my mindset and focus on overcoming…no matter the issue or circumstance, I found real power in that. It has been life changing.

  149. …now if I could focus on not eating so much and exercising more, that would be great 🙂

  150. Now, of course, my belief is from the will…and it is intentional and it is synergistic…it is my mind/soul/spirit/conscience in cooperation with God’s Spirit…I believe I will overcome b/c of the ability, talents and mind God has given me and because I believe that no matter the circumstance, I will find a way through in cooperation with “God”…even to death…even death does not scare me, it’s just a transition (most likely) and whatever happens will be fine b/c God is truly Good and God is truly Love.

  151. …just a glimpse into my personal mindset in my journey.

  152. Some principles I have found to be true:

    Sowing and Reaping.

    Power corrupts.

    Human nature is very predictable.

    The Universe/Multiverse is orderly but very complex and begs an intelligence…and our extremely meager knowledge of what it is and how it works leads to the metaphor and divergence of religious/philosophical opinion.

    Humans are innately spiritual…there is a spiritual component in every single Group than cannot be denied (even so-called Atheists/Humanists).

    We can know in our Conscience…in general…the difference between Good and Evil.

    All humans from all walks of life and all religious/philosophical backgrounds are capable of great Good and great Evil….though Sowing and Reaping Principle can produce, in general, a more predictable level of Good and Evil depending on the Group’s mindset and philosophy.

    We are not God…we are not “specially anointed”…but we are spiritual beings in our consciousness and we are not our flesh and bones…and we are influenced by God’s Spirit.

    God is Spirit…he is not text on a page of a book or books. God is not what a supposed guru or supposed prophet tells you the book says.

  153. Hi Bob,

    I don’t really disagree with you, I just have my own rather old-fashioned way of looking at the world. I agree that the complexity of DNA does point to a Creator, I am just not personally too interested in it.

    When I say something about the Christian Faith and the response begins with “Science says……” as if that completely obviates the Scriptures, well, I am seeing more and more of that attitude these days. For some, Science is God, not something that demonstrates (as it does to you) the wonder of God’s creation.

  154. Now is that “faith”? Yes, I believe it is faith in “God”.

    I believe it is quite possibly more a true faith in God than faith in a doctrinal set of creeds and faith in a church and a leader and a system.

  155. “He states that these problems would have not happened if a man “everyone respects” like Joe Focht of Philadelphia had been Smith’s successor.

    There is a problem with this.”

    _____________________________________________________________________

    Michael you are absolutely right there is a big problem with this. Jacob starts off saying that he doesn’t agree with the Moses Model principal at all and then he goes on to say that if CC would have followed the Moses model and appointed Joe as a sort of Joshua successor to Chuck Smith we wouldn’t have had these problem. However, I am pretty sure the problems would be much much worse if Joe were running the show. I think that Joe being the Moses of his own region is a huge problem. That is my two cents. And no matter how much people like Joe, he is a big Chuck Smith fan and Moses model practicer.

  156. How much faith fits into a mustard seed? I have no idea anymore. Not much room for a lot of theology, doctrine, tradition….. Not bad things in themselves possibly, but possibly pretty extraeneous in the basic matters of faith. Seems like ALL the stuff outside the seed is not only what causes eternal schism on blogs and in Church as a whole but provides fodder for critics of the faith. Thinking out loud. Aware of the risks inherent in doing that here. Don’t mind push back etc. Keeps me on my toes 🙂

  157. Perhaps faith the size of a mustard seed enough to start the life of faith, but more is required to sustain it? Though if God is the ultimate initiator and sustainer of faith? Oy vey.

  158. Anne, you talk about theology and doctrine as a bad thing, but that is what your comments are.
    Theology is just thoughts on God
    Doctrine is just teachings about God.
    How can those things be bad?

    Someone above poo pooed the creeds – but if one were to read them, they are all (100%) about God and zero about the people.

    Faith is Jesus. Any time you come to the word FAITH in the Scriptures, just substitute the word JESUS. We don’t need enough faith – we need enough Jesus.

  159. Alex,

    While I believe in the mind/body connection, I’ve experienced miracles that had zero to do with my faith. Three were 180 degrees from what I was believing. I’ve also experienced miracles where God instantly did was I was asking Him to do, but my faith regarding outcome is never strong in these cases. More like, “would you please…(man, I hope He will)”, which is more like faith in God being God than Him doing a particular thing just because I asked.

    I just can’t explain away getting home from work and being told my five year old has a 104 fever that won’t break. I pick her up and beg God to heal her RIGHT NOW, but not really thinking He’ll do so, and her fever is gone while I’m praying.

    Another time, a few of us are praying for a guy just diagnosed with cancer, with a bad prognosis. In the middle of, I blurt out, “God wants you to know that you won’t die from this”. I didn’t “hear” the words, I just said them. I thought that I would puke. I wanted to apologize to the guy, and kicked myself for over a year (until he was in remission) for my “emotional” outburst. I don’t do prophesy.

    12 years later, the guy is still cancer free, and is strong like bull.

    I can’t think of logical reasons for these and other miracles I’ve seen, other than God did something unusual.

  160. No, MLD I did not talk about them as though they are bad (“Not bad things in themselves possibly”) because all Christian thoughts and teachings have the potential to be good or bad depending on how they are used by the teachers and lived out by the thinkers. If they didn’t there wouldn’t be any need or usefulness for blogs such as this one.

    If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith (Jesus) that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 1Cor 13:2 NIV

  161. Off topic but I just came from a bible study where the blood moons were discussed.
    Has that topic been raised here and if so can someone direct me to where ?
    Thanks.

  162. Blood Moons are a sign of beauty and order in creation.
    They are a sign for prophets and for apocalypticists…
    I put the scare at about the level of Y2K
    But the pundits will be pleased by the profits.

  163. BD, “Blood Moons are a sign of beauty and order in creation.They are a sign for prophets and for apocalypticists…”

    was the star of Bethlehem real? was it a sign (got the attention of shepherds and wise men) because it was out of the order of creation?

    your response has me pondering… should anyone visit this site, any thoughts on ‘signs in the sky?’

  164. I bet when we get to heaven some certain blogger will feel preeetty silly.

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