Things I Think

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227 Responses

  1. Nonnie says:

    I like Anne Lamott, but was a bit put off by her article as well. Thank you for commenting on it. I just thought I was being old and grumpy.

  2. Bryan Stupar says:

    I often get the impression from many who study bible prophecy that they’re more eager/excited about, “the prophetic stage being set” & “Israel and her enemies” etc, etc. then Jesus, who conquered death (resurrection) and launched new Creation. The later seems to be how the whole of the NT is weighted.

  3. Nonnie says:

    Number 4….wow! That is shocking. The CC I attend supports some Arab Christian churches in Israel, as well as ministries that reach out to the Jews. I can’t believe that there would be a problem with that. What was said at that church that CS found offensive? And what exactly was said in rebuttal?

  4. Michael says:

    Nonnie,

    I like her too, but the more I read it, the more inane I thought it was.
    She said, “Like everything else, it can fill me only if it is ordinary and available to all.”
    There is this desire to flatten out the whole culture…to make everyone the same, to demand that everything must be “inclusive”.
    That simply isn’t how life works,nor would life be better if it was so.

  5. Michael says:

    Nonnie,

    If you click the link that part of the discussion starts at about the 10 minute mark.

  6. Michael says:

    Bryan,

    The sticking point is the “launch of a new creation”.
    The standard pretribber believes that this world is being fit only for destruction, not being “recreated”.

  7. Bryan Stupar says:

    Michael,
    If that is the standard pretrib belief (and I’m not sure it is) then one can only get there by ignoring the majority of the NT. All NT authors proclaim (announce) the reality of new creation breaking in, all being initiated from the event of Christ’s resurrection, w/o the exclusion of another significant/important event…His return!

  8. Bob Sweat says:

    Great point Bryan!

  9. Scott2 says:

    Writers write and they often feel compelled to write something “compelling” in order to be heard or read or controversial. This is often filed under “I am so clever to have thought this up”.

    It’s one person’s thought and for me carries the weight of “another opinion” thrown out there. Why do we take these people so seriously? In the scheme of eternity, who is she, anyway?

  10. Michael says:

    Scott 2,

    She a very good writer.
    The reason I noted the article is that she is representative of the thinking of a a group…a group I believe is growing and whose thoughts deserve address.

  11. 3. I may need that advice soon.
    4. Can’t get the link to play. Neither one of my devices supports Microsoft Silverlight. I am guessing the gist is that by supporting Palestinian Christians you aren’t supporting Israel? If so, that is one non-redeemable argument right there.
    6. Yup.
    8. I don’t listen to that affiliate much at all. I think I listened when he was giving his end of the world predictions, just so I could hear what kind of snake oil he was selling. If he is an example of the programming on the station, then I would say it needs to go away.
    9. Amen!

  12. Oh, and Bryan was dead on.

  13. Michael says:

    Derek,

    You have guessed correctly on #4…

  14. filbertz says:

    Anne Lamott is like any author, musician, or artist…and some of her work is better than others. She doesn’t always hit a homerun—sometimes she fouls out to the first baseman. I try to think of writers, including those here, as sandpaper–sometimes they refine us and knock off our rough edges, other times they go cross-grain and rub us the wrong way.

    Where can I order a pair of World News Briefs? Do they come in boxer-briefs? Do they support anything other than Israel? 😉

    Taking Harold camping was a mistake. (insert “seriously” for additional meaning)

  15. Michael says:

    fil,

    That was well said…I just try to hit .300. 🙂

  16. Michael says:

    “I know who made the environment and he’s coming back and going to burn it all up. So yes, I drive an SUV.”

    Mark Driscoll

  17. filbertz says:

    Michael, hopefully in baseball, not bowling. 🙂

  18. Rebecca says:

    Good stuff! Thank you!

  19. gomergirl says:

    As a married woman with no children, not by choice, I really hate Mother’s Day. But I don’t expect people to do anything to appease me or even pity me. I don’t want that… but on the other hand I find it really condescending when people put out blanket statements to all women to have a Happy Mother’s Day. I know that I am responsible for my own feelings and I would never play the victim, to shift that blame, but I also, as a Christian am told to take into account the feelings and beliefs of other Christians, above my own, so I try to be respectful of all with whom I come in contact. I don’t expect the same in return. It usually never happens that way.

  20. Michael says:

    gomergirl,

    Taking into account what you’re written…how then could we set aside a day to celebrate our moms (or dads) and not bring offense to those who find it painful?

  21. Nonnie says:

    Gomergirl…
    I have a dear friend who is childless and I know Mother’s Day is very difficult for her and I am thankful that our church doesn’t make a big deal of it. I wonder how many woman stay away from church on that Sunday because it is too painful for them when all the moms get a flower or a gift of some sort.

    I do believe that every mature Christian woman, however, is a mother in one way or another. I believe that it is a part of being a woman….that nurturing and caring “instinct” that God instills in us…that is a part us. “The older women teach the younger women…” Even teaching young women how live a life serving and loving Jesus and others and to be content and fulfilled as a single woman or married woman with no children. Each one of us has something of value to pass on to the next generation.

    I have an older woman in my life that for the past 37 years has been a “spiritual mom” to me. She never had a daughter of her own, but has many spiritual daughters.

    I will say however, that with the onset of FB and social networking Mother’s day and such holidays have taken on a dynamic that they did not have before.

  22. PP Vet says:

    “I do believe that every mature Christian woman, however, is a mother in one way or another.” Well said.

  23. mike says:

    Gomergirl,
    Are you childless due to. Inability to conceive? Have you considered adopting or fostering?

    Not meaning to tear of an old scab, but could you exlain? Thanks
    -MIC

  24. Lutheran says:

    Where can I order a pair of World News Briefs?

    Filb,

    That would be fun.

    In the meantime, you can order a pair of “Left Behind” gym shorts. 🙂

    http://oldlutheran.cybrhost.com/oldlutheran/page.php?page=store&Screen=PROD&Store_Code=OL&Product_Code=8002&Category_Code

  25. Ixtlan says:

    4. “Each Calvary Chapel is on its own completely”. says Chuck Smith. Ok….. Then that Calvary pastor in the San Diego area really can do what he wants.

    What is a “Calvary Chapel position” amongst independent churches?

  26. 1. I feel for couples who have not been able to have children. Still, I love my mama, and my wife is a great mom, too. Nothing is gonna stop me from honoring those two women the best that I can.

    2. Ugh, Ehrmann. He’s really proven to be a thorn in the side of modern Christianity. Thankfully, we’ve got brilliant guys like Dan Wallace and Ben Witherington who have been able to refute some of his faulty claims.

    3. Yeeesh. Who knew?

    4. Listened to the clip from Chuck, but don’t know what was going on in the Church in San Diego. If they were there promoting some political agenda, I’d be totally against it. If they are just there sharing the Gospel as brothers in Christ, of course they should be welcomed with open arms.

    5. Matt has gotten too depressing for me. But he is a good writer.

    6. NO DOUBT!!! What is up with that? Some things just seem so obvious.

    7. I envy the way you learn from Packer. I’m always trying to find that one guy who just speaks to me, directly to me. My Guy. Can’t quite find it, but I’m learning a lot in the process.

    8. Ummm. Good ?

    9. Hmmm. I would probably still say it in a different way. God’s People is the center. YEs, that is the church, but only because we are the fulfillment to God’s promise for Abraham. Adopted into the bloodline, we are Israel, as are all those who receive Christ.

    10. I’m sad today. Not sure why. Just one of those days. Feeling burdened for some in my church. Feeling God moving me in a new direction. Yeah, just kinda down.

  27. filbertz says:

    “I know (cough, cough) who made (cough, cough) the environment (wheeze) and he’s coming back (hack, hack) and going to (cough) burn it all up. (ahem, ahem, hack) So yes, (wheeze) I drive an SUV. (glory to God, haaaack.)

    or,

    “I don’t care about the environment nor do I care about the world my kids will inherit because God is going to bail us all out before anyone has to really suffer, and besides, I make a huge wad of money pastoring a really large church, so yes, I drive an SUV.”

    readingbetweenthelinesfil

  28. filbertz says:

    Lute,
    Left Behind gym shorts are better left behind. 😉
    The slogan on the World News Briefs could be “This just in…”

  29. Captain Kevin says:

    filbertz is on a roll once again!

  30. Luthean says:

    Filb,

    ROTFLOL.

  31. Captain Kevin says:

    Thank you for linking to Matt Redmond’s post. I needed that today.

  32. Becky says:

    Our Anglican Church made sure all the women even those who do not have children got a rose Yesterday! It was very sweet to see my little guy give another lady a rose as well as one to me. ♥

    I still miss my Mamma every single Mother’s day. Before, I had James I felt left out. I see all sides of the issue. It is life. My bestie wished me a Happy Mothers Day yesterday. She was in the OR when James was born, Cause Daddy could not handle the gore 🙂 My bestie does not have children (yet) and I am happy to share the day with her.

  33. Rob Murphy says:

    Hey Michael – after your recommendation on a thread a while back I ordered and finally received ‘Engaging the Written Word of God” by Packer. Now when that backorder on my reading time comes in, I’m all set. That Gk lexicon thingy that you and Steve mentioned the other day also wants me to order it…
    I always appreciate the recommended reading and have gotten many great rec’s from many sources. Now if anybody’s got an extra half hour laying around to send my way, that would be wondrous.
    Our friend used the pet antibiotics route, but it was from a feed store, so she was able to choose from horse or doggy amoxicillin. When animals have better access to healthcare, ugh.

  34. filbertz says:

    Chuck Smith’s World News Briefs would be made from linen, not wool.

    blastfromthepastinsidejokefil

  35. @14
    Sort of sad when I am able to guess what position they took up.

  36. Captain Kevin says:

    I have to wonder if sometimes Pastor Chuck is becoming like Pat Robertson. Just stop talking and go take a nap and everything will be OK.

  37. @ Captain Kevin’s 38. LOL

    I saw this about Pat Robertson a few days ago.
    http://cheezburger.com/7446178560

  38. Crowned1 says:

    3. Same ingredients, same result!
    4. I listened until Don said “we let you know how real events in the world fit into Bible prophecy”. Then I had a good chuckle remembering 1981.
    6. Ditto
    8. It’s ‘his baby’ and he won’t be profiting off it so why not? Oh did you think it was a ministry?
    9. 100% agree
    10. Very true

  39. Gosh, just sitting here waiting for the verdict in the Gosnell trial. Listening to this stuff breaks your heart!

  40. Gosnell was found guilty in 3 of 4 1st degree murder charges on the babies.

  41. Michael says:

    Guilty on three of four counts of first degree murder.
    Will this change the national opinion?

  42. Crowned1 says:

    Derek @ 39

    Can’t stop laughing at that picture 🙂

  43. ( |o )====::: says:

    Pastors’ Perspective is purely painfu =(

  44. Nonnie says:

    At least a court and jury has said “this is murder.” I am thankful for that. Wonder what will happen in appeals court.

  45. Reposting this from FB, ’cause it sort of made me mad.
    I heard a reporter on FOX say “they were babies, because they were born.” No, they were babies because they were babies. When reporters actually start admitting what everyone really knows the whole debate can actually change.

    We Know They Are Killing Children—All of Us Know ~ John Piper

  46. Rob Murphy says:

    @43 – I’d settle for simply changing the church’s opinion

  47. @43
    Not until people actually realize that this is going on at multiple abortion clinics around the nation. Another dirty little secret hidden from sight. I have read stories of this type of thing everywhere.
    I wish it would, but not going to get my hopes up.

  48. London says:

    I feel the same way about Father’s Day. Can’t stand it…but, I’m happy for those who still have father’s and would never begrudge them the day to celebrate it.

    Still doesn’t reduce the pain I feel when it’s all about Dad for that week or so prior.

  49. Glen says:

    I haven’t paid much attention to Pat or Gordon Robertson for years. I do confess to enjoying the other Robertson clan on A&E – Phil, Miss Kay, Uncle Si and so on. I generally don’t watch reality shows, but Hey, this one is different Jack. Have a Happy Happy Happy day.

  50. @51
    I love Duck Dynasty! I will definitely take those Robertson’s any day.

  51. Nonnie says:

    The thing is, there is absolutely nothing wrong or shameful about acknowledging loss or pain or sadness over certain holidays, yet at the same time, understanding that others have something very special to celebrate on that day.

    That is called being mature and gracious. Gomergirl and London are are good examples of that.

  52. Dave says:

    I have to say Bryan, Crowned, and Derek Thornton are nailing it in regards to #4 , the church has taken to a political stance tied to the USA based on security and oil rather then a biblical stance (The bible never mentions a “Chosen People” as an ethnicity once in the NT )

    There are more Christian Palestinians in Israel then Christian Israelis ; They don’t want any part of Christianity, except our funding. Go and try to preach the gospel in Israel in the street, you’ll be beaten up in no time. Youtube it if you don’t believe me; its happened.

    While we surely need tons of missionaries ; we need to support the visible church that is already there, and it happens to be Palestinian in ethnicity. Everyone should check out the movie “With God on Our Side” http://www.withgodonourside.com/

  53. Hey Michael,
    Here’s an interesting article about “artisanal publishing” which made me think of you and another friend. I hope you enjoy it!

    http://www.fastcompany.com/3009586/call-it-artisanal-and-5-other-ways-to-crush-self-publishing

  54. Dave says:

    I just listened to the video, I’d like to know who it is they are claiming is anti – Israel ? It looks like they are just equating anyone that’s not pro “Blind Support” of Israel to be automatically against Israel, which is just a false witness and a straw man. Just lost all the remaining respect for Don Stewart that I had left. If you cant even articulate the opinion of those you disagree accurately why would I go to you for advice ? If you wrote a book called 88 reasons God WILL COME BACK in 1988, why would I buy in to your unchanged and unapologetic eschatology…. weird.

  55. PP Vet says:

    It makes me sick how cool it is to dis Pat Robertson.

    Yes, I know, you outgrew that phase of your Christian life, I am very proud of you.

    But the man’s life has impacted millions for the kingdom.

    As mature and sophisticated and beyond-all-that as you are now, commenting from your easy chair, the man still does not deserve your scorn.

    All that reveals is your own immaturity.

  56. Hi Dave,
    Could you explain where you posted,

    “If you wrote a book called 88 reasons God WILL COME BACK in 1988, why would I buy in to your unchanged and unapologetic eschatology”

    To my knowledge, neither Don Stewart nor ChuckSr wrote that book.

    Would you please clarify, I’m quite confused by your post.

  57. Outgrew? Never went there in the first place. 😛

  58. PP Vet,
    I’m glad you can admire Mr. Robertson who blames hurricane destruction on sin instead of poor urban planning. For me and most of us who prefer to think and not blindly affirm with a response of “amen”, Mr. Robertson represents the best example of polished buffoonery and the worst of muddled reactionary religion that none of us would like to continue to be labeled as “christianity”. If only our Muslum friends would repudiate their own twits perhaps we would all have a better quality of life.

  59. Dave says:

    Hello ( |o )== – I was wrong, I heard Chuck advocate that book once or twice in 1997, but he did not write it, it was Edgar C Whisenant ; Chucks first predictions were mostly all 1976, 78 and 1981 and he did those through a book, 3 publications, a radio program and then he goes on to put down others who set dates, crazy. He even went as far as to try to do that again at a pastors conference last year. As far as I know there has been no apology for the wrong dates in the past. Eventually Chuck blames it all on Hal Lindsey, LOL

    I’m not tall enough to ride the end times rollercoaster Chuck builds

    http://calvarychapel.pbworks.com/w/page/13146568/1981

  60. Dave says:

    Ok, I kept digging, to be fair, in a March 30, 1989 interview with William Alnor, Smith admitted that he “was guilty of coming close” to “date setting,” and this was wrong.[7]

    Even though he didnt set dates in 2011 at the conference,He did more than come close to date setting. He wrote, “We’re the generation that saw the fig tree bud forth, as Israel became a nation again in 1948.” We are now more than 60 years removed from the 1948 founding of Israel. The interpretive methodology used by Smith, Lindsey, Dave Hunt, and others making the 1948–1988 connection was fundamental to their claim that they were following a literal hermeneutic. If a literal hermeneutic results in near certainty of when prophetic events will take place but ends in a colossal miscalculation on a key element of their system, how should the interpretive methodology that brought them to that calculation be evaluated? To paraphrase Jesus, “An interpretive tree is known by its fruit, and the 1948–1988 generation has turned out to be rotten fruit no matter how it’s sliced.”

    Read the article here:
    http://americanvision.org/5620/chuck-smith-says-the-end-is-near-again/

    These are good enough reasons for me to stay away from this school of interpretation that seems to put the spiritual kingdom that exists NOW on the back-burner for the excitement of what may or may not be…..

  61. Crowned1 says:

    PP @ 58 “But the man’s life has impacted millions for the kingdom.”

    Whose kingdom? The republican kingdom? The free mason kingdom? His own foundation’s kingdom? Who gets the glory in Pat’s world?

    The man is filled with hatred for other peoples, falsely prophecies constantly, attributes atrocities to God, what exactly does he have ‘going for him’ in the spiritual sense?

    Quoting someone is not a ‘dis’…it IS them.

  62. Crowned1 says:

    Dave @ 63 ” Ok, I kept digging, to be fair, in a March 30, 1989 interview with William Alnor, Smith admitted that he “was guilty of coming close” to “date setting,” and this was wrong.[7] ”

    That’s called a ‘self dodge’. AKA, how can I spin this so I am not a false prophet, which is bad for PR.

    “We are now more than 60 years removed from the 1948 founding of Israel”

    He adds 5-10 years when the event passes. This is common in prophecy circles.

    For example, I could say “even though a ‘generation’ back then was 40 years, with today’s tech its now 60. So therefore, the time is soon”.

    Just add a few years to ‘lifespan’ when the need arises due to ‘medical advances’ and you have a bullet proof rapture theory for years.

  63. PP Vet says:

    Reminds me of how Walter Martin went after cults, and his successor goes after Christians he does not like.

    Taking pot shots at a man in the public eye is not that hard.

    Find me someone who knows PR personally who does not believe he is a good and decent Christian man of integrity.

    You might find two or three, but it will be two or three for every fifty or a hundred that believe in him.

    What you know, you read in the papers. So shut up already.

  64. PP Vet says:

    CBN, Regent University, Operation Blessing, ACLJ, and much more.

    What have you ever done, you fat whining loser?

    OK, maybe you are not fat.

    So let’s be fair: For every one of his mistakes you want to crow over, tell us all about one of yours.

  65. Steve Wright says:

    if it’s not going to be about him, he wants it to die. Make your own application…
    —————————————————
    That one made me smile, Michael. 🙂

  66. PP Vet,
    “What have you ever done, you fat whining loser?”

    -Married well
    -Stayed married 33 years and counting
    -Raised a family of good, upstanding, moral, creative and admirable children
    -2 major career reinventions
    -Buried 2 parents, honoring them by a life they both told me they were proud of
    -Faithfully do my job for my team, customers and co-workers
    -Create art, music, live to encourage others
    -Lost 35 lbs through diet, exercise and simple healthy choices
    -Participated in lifelong ministry despite, seeing the good, bad, ugly, knowing inner workings of major ministries yet somehow have managed to keep my faith in the living and reigning Jesus Christ in spite of highly visible grafting, manipulative TV preachers, circuit speakers, and entitled jive-ass-pastors…

    …and today’s greatest achievement, by choice, remaining patient with you

  67. London says:

    PP Vet,
    Is there anyone that claims the name of Jesus that you do not stick up for regardless of their ridiculousness?

    Just curious who you think IS a fraud and/or worthy of people’s scorn for their lack of character or integrity.

  68. Solomon Rodriguez says:

    “just listened to the video, I’d like to know who it is they are claiming is anti – Israel ? It looks like they are just equating anyone that’s not pro “Blind Support” of Israel to be automatically against Israel, which is just a false witness and a straw man.”

    this^^^^^^^^^^^^

  69. Dave says:

    Logically, just because its not relatively hard to mention Pat’s shortcomings doesn’t make it any more or less wrong then not pointing one out. Also, reacting to his toxin doesn’t mean you hate the guy, why is it that in America disagreement with ones beliefs equated hatred of that person ? Pat Robinsons public stances as of late are exactly whats wrong with Christianity from a cultural perspective and its one of the reasons the world cant stand us.

  70. Crowned1 says:

    PP @ 66 – 67

    “What you know, you read in the papers. So shut up already.”

    One of the things I have learned in my life is to quote people and avoid hearsay & opinion.

    “Taking pot shots at a man in the public eye is not that hard.”

    I have no need, or desire, to take pot shots at the man. He shoots himself just fine on his own. Out of the abundance of his heart, his mouth speaks.

    “Find me someone who knows PR personally who does not believe he is a good and decent Christian man of integrity. CBN, Regent University, Operation Blessing, ACLJ, and much more”

    There are no good men except for Jesus Christ. The accolades of mankind (as if we are some time of demi gods worthy of exalting one another) do not concern me.

    “What have you ever done, you fat whining loser?”

    Many things which are between me and the Most High. Let not your right hand know what the left is doing. You are correct, a certain percentage of my body composition is fat.

    “So let’s be fair: For every one of his mistakes you want to crow over, tell us all about one of yours.”

    1) I used to idolize men. Particularly pastors & religious celebrity figures.
    2) I struggle with lust. Living in Orange County & receiving daily porn advertising in my email doesn’t help. Having a wife & group of men to hold me accountable does.
    3) I am a selfish person. My comforts are more important than ‘the least of these’.

  71. PP Vet says:

    G, I was not talking to you, but thanks for the update. 🙂

    Look, if someone wants to have a nuanced, responsible, constructive conversation about Pat Robertson, fine.

    If you want to look at where he may be off-balance, and how we as people can learn something about what is an effective leader, great.

    If as a result we can all become better at discerning what is a loving and fruitful human being, whose ministry has a genuinely positive and enduring effect in the lives of people, fine.

    If you just want to throw crap, then expect some coming back.

    To L: Reverend Ike, Peter Popoff, Robert Tilton, Robert Larson, and Hans Kung, among others, I would have trouble defending.

  72. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6xBo9EijIQ
    Pat Robertson saying the Lord told him Mitt Romney would win the election. Case closed.

  73. Lutheran says:

    PPV,

    You obviously traded in your brain a long time ago for a bag of marshmallows.

    The stupid, idiotic and moronic things Pat “Word of Knowledge” Robertson has said over the years are numerous and there for everyone to see. It barely takes a brain to find them.

    Maybe you belong on one of the mindless charismatic blogs out there. Don’t forget your cotton candy.

  74. PP Vet,
    You weren’t talking to me?
    Awww, well, ok. Please clarify exactly to whom you were addressing your comment.

    I still stand wholeheartedly by Pat Robertson being a buffoon who has outlived his value to “the ministry”. You speciously cite him having influenced many for Christ, but I can assure you he continues to negatively impact far more individuals both nationally and internationally and hampers the efforts of The Gospel by speaking as a false prophet who claims that Jesus told him Mitt Romney would be elected, he blames annual hurricane destruction on a supposed “curse” on Hatiti when the New Testament knows absolutely nothing of supposed “generational curses”. He is the laughingstock of American christianity and does much harm to the cause of Jesus Christ by claiming personal words of knowledge and healing while whooping up his unthinking TV viewers and creating crises in their minds that he assures them that their donations will somehow advance God’s kingdom while those much needed donations never end up in the local churches which those willing dupes who support him divert from.

  75. PP Vet says:

    I think it would be fair to say that Pat can be overbearing, and can be a little out of control or abrupt in some ways.

    That he can carry a certain my-way-or-the-highway atmosphere.

    He might even admit to some things along those lines.

    I think in his public persona at least there is a sort of shallowness or perhaps a one-dimensionality.

    I do not watch his show often enough to know a whole lot.

    I have spoken with him once, briefly, and visited and touched the Virginia Beach complex enough times to be enormously impressed.

    Once my toddler son fell and split his head open on the hardwood floor in the (very lovely) main building at Regent University. Blood everywhere. A group of students gathered and prayed.

    We took him straight to the ER. They looked at him and basically said, Where’s the problem?

  76. PP Vet,
    I’ve had way too many conversations with those who object to The Holy Spirit because of Mr. Robertson, they use him as a daily working example of The Spirit being a danger because of the stupid and idiotic things Pat says. The ODMs lump good and honorable believers in with Robertson. And you used the word “leader”? May God save us from such loons!

  77. PP Vet says:

    So you are saying that although he has done some good things, they have been more than offset by his errors? That at least is a reasonable assertion.

    I think his errors, though real, are exaggerated by the media. And I can see that some may be offended by them.

    However God, for some reason, keeps raising up very offensive people to do his work. Jesus offended people, seemingly intentionally at times.

    If only you critics would do something noble, then we would have leaders of integrity who did not offend anyone!

  78. Nonnie says:

    God uses broken people. I agree PR has said some silly stuff. I’ve been offended and saddened by some of the statements he has made over the past few years.

    I will also add that in the 14 years we were in the Philippines, the 700 club/Operation Blessing provided food, clothing, medicine, even dental chairs and equipment, wheelchairs, etc, etc. that we were privileged to be able to distribute. I know personally that Operation Blessing helped so many missionaries and charities just in Manila. They also organised cleft lip surgeries each year and helped facilitate doctors from the USA to come and operate on children who would have never had surgery without that help. I can only speak of what was being done in Manila and I know that they help all over the world.

    Yes, God uses cracked pots and He shines through the cracks, in spite of us.

  79. PP Vet says:

    Dittos, N.

    Todd Bentley is the personification of the offensive Christian leader. I think he is fascinating for that very reason. I drove a few miles to see him once, and left in disgust. Now, watching him on TV, I think I am seeing the emergence of some genuine stature in him. I may be wrong.

    One thing that all of us who come here have in common is that we are trying to understand what God appreciates and honors in a leader, and what turns Him off.

    Sometimes I think we think we know, when in reality, we just don’t know.

    I know this: When religious people stone you, it is not necessarily an indication that you were on the wrong track. 🙂

  80. Nonnie says:

    PPVET. Sorry, Todd Bentley is where I gotta draw the line. I think you had it right when you “left in disgust….”

    Cynical Nonnie

  81. Crowned1 says:

    PP @ 80 “So you are saying that although he has done some good things, they have been more than offset by his errors?”

    Our good works are as filthy rags. No amount of ‘good’ can over shadow a false doctrine.

    “However God, for some reason, keeps raising up very offensive people to do his work”

    You are asserting that God raised Pat Robertson up. Media & money are not authoritative sources for “God’s chosen”.

    @ 82 – “One thing that all of us who come here have in common is that we are trying to understand what God appreciates and honors in a leader”

    I do not share this sentiment. Jesus Christ set the bar, there is nothing left to ‘try to understand’.

  82. London says:

    Thanks for the answer PPV.
    I have no idea who anyone on your list is excep Hans Kung and I kinda like the guy.

    I think your ability to see buffoons and scoundrels in the ministry may be lacking its regulator.

    May want to get that looked at.

  83. Reuben says:

    #3, I have done that numerous times myself. I hope that when I have some spare cash, I can go online and order a whole bottle of the stuff. They make tank pills of almost any type of antibiotic known, and you can get 500 pills in a jar, for about 1/20th the price you would pay at Walgreens.

  84. Babylon's Dread says:

    Bravo! SOMETHING TO TICK OFF EVERYONE. This might be my all time favorite TIT.

  85. Babylon's Dread says:

    YES Christ in the midst of the lampstands. The church is the eschaton … And I saw the Bride… New Jerusalem coming down out of heaven.

  86. Babylon's Dread says:

    Ah yes the politically incorrect greeting of “Happy mother’s day” The unhappy among us insist we come join them or at least abstain from open dissent.

  87. Nonnie at #81, thank you for that bit of perspective.

  88. Linnea says:

    Nonnie @81…priceless…

  89. “…you fat, whining loser.”

    Guilty as charged. Have a nice day.

  90. Babylon's Dread says:

    Let’s see Nonnie wants God to use cracked pots but she wants to tell him where to draw the line. LOL… if only I didnt “get it” so well.

  91. Babylon's Dread says:

    Isn’t Palestinian Christian a thing of the past? Haven’t they pretty much been raptured out of there?

  92. Babylon's Dread says:

    Hmmm what do Anne Lamont, Bart Erhmann, Chuck Smith, Harold Camping, Matt Redmond, and J I Packer have in common? MN is thinking about them all.

  93. The difference is in WHAT he thinks about all of them.

  94. And it’s Lamott. Lamont is Fred Sanford’s son.

  95. If someone would apologize to Josh the Baptist, I’d appreciate it. 😉

  96. PP Vet,
    Why do you require “leaders”? Are you incapable of thinking for yourself?
    When you think someone must be your “leader” do you then unquestioningly follow them or do you stop, weigh what they are saying and repudiate the malarkey? And, isn’t there a point where there is a critical mass of too many stupid things which, if not renounced, invalidates any public influence by weight of the sheer amount of missteps? I can think of an ever increasing body of such blunders on the part of Harold Camping. Are you saying that Mr. Robertson merely lacks a critical mass at this time?

    As far as your premise that God is always raising up whackadoodles and twits and using them mightily, I disagree. He saves us, each and every one as losers, misfits, whackadoodles and twits but he never leaves us where we are when join Him as he coaches us and bids us into maturity. He then expects the group to have a process wherein we screen, have standards, milestones and a certain quality of life for those who would dare to sit in our teacher’s chairs. Each of us is free to decide who is most “Christlike”, whom better emulates Jesus as we see Him in the Gospels. What is disturbing is when the hero worship perpetuates someone in a position that they outlive their effectiveness or fall prey to the political manipulation of sycophant yes-men wherein they can never be held to account.

  97. Matt B Redmond,
    Methinks someone you know might have done so 😉

    Welcome. Nice to have you visit. Please don’t be a stranger.

  98. London says:

    “I hate the way the holiday makes all non-mothers, and the daughters of dead mothers, and the mothers of dead or severely damaged children, feel the deepest kind of grief and failure. The non-mothers must sit in their churches, temples, mosques, recovery rooms and pretend to feel good about the day while they are excluded from a holiday that benefits no one but Hallmark and See’s.”

    I’m a “non-mother” and I don’t feel this way on Mother’s Day at all. The time’s I’ve been at church on Mother’s Day have been neutral. No one asks if you’re a mom or not before you get a carnation. I’ve sat in A LOT of waiting rooms in hospitals and I can guarantee you that the topic has never once come up on that day.

    But…on the other hand, I got a free drink on the airplane on Sunday (as did every other woman who wanted one) because of Mother’s Day.

    I also think there’s validity to the idea that parents have more value than non-parents…at least to their children…usually.

    I does something good for a kid to have to stop thinking of themselves for a day and try to think of, and celebrate, someone else for a change.

    I think Anne Lamott is over reaching in her efforts to be cranky on this subject.

  99. Frosted Flake says:

    London,
    You are being just plain mature and I thank you. My daughter gave us a nine pound baby girl for Mothers Day and nobody else’s depression can change that. I feel compassion for the hurting but every middle of May will be a celebration for this family. Sorry!

  100. Frosted Flake says:

    BTW,
    Chuck Smith and his favorite doctrine is up for scrutiny once again and panic amongst the faithful will follow. I for one think it will be a healthy yet awkward discussion.

  101. London’s 101 and Frosty’s 102!!!

    Also, good to see you here, Matt Redmond. Sure did appreciate your article.

  102. Believe says:

    Michael said, “Taking into account what you’re written…how then could we set aside a day to celebrate our moms (or dads) and not bring offense to those who find it painful?”

    No offense taken. I celebrate the day and the ideal of “good” Mothers. I honor my wife and many of my friends who are great Moms and I honor the role and the position, it’s important and shouldn’t be taken for granted.

    I think folks who get offended by it should embrace the ideal and admire what they missed in someone else they know and care about.

  103. Babs said “Ah yes the politically incorrect greeting of “Happy mother’s day”

    You don’t know politically incorrect until you asked a non pregnant woman when she was due?

    I now never make the first comment about someone’s pregnancy. 🙂

  104. I don’t think that there is anything that Don or Chuck say on their Thursday night broadcasts that are true or real. In fact, I think they know it’s wrong, but don’t know how to get off the merry go round.

    But I do admire that they get together every week and keep going and going and going.

  105. “…embrace the ideal and admire what they missed in someone else they know and care about.” 🙂

  106. Pardon My Interruption says:

    MLD… Hilarious!! Going and going and going…

  107. Believe says:

    G said, “-Married well
    -Stayed married 33 years and counting
    -Raised a family of good, upstanding, moral, creative and admirable children
    -2 major career reinventions
    -Buried 2 parents, honoring them by a life they both told me they were proud of
    -Faithfully do my job for my team, customers and co-workers
    -Create art, music, live to encourage others
    -Lost 35 lbs through diet, exercise and simple healthy choices
    -Participated in lifelong ministry despite, seeing the good, bad, ugly, knowing inner workings of major ministries yet somehow have managed to keep my faith in the living and reigning Jesus Christ in spite of highly visible grafting, manipulative TV preachers, circuit speakers, and entitled jive-ass-pastors…

    …and today’s greatest achievement, by choice, remaining patient with you”

    You’ve got some really good qualities. That’s a good list and your example is a good one, IMO.

  108. Believe says:

    MLD, that was hilarious and a great analogy about Chuck and Don 😆

  109. Xenia says:

    Regarding Number One on Michael’s list, we had a lady ruin Christmas for the ladies of my old CC for a few years. We had the tradition of hosting a Christmas tea, complete with fancy tablecloths and pretty tea pots and tasty desserts, and we sang Christmas carols and women would get up and tell their favorite Christmas memories. Maybe it was a little mawkish but we all loved it. All except this one woman, who had a difficult childhood and our happy memories made her angry and miserable. She complained and we cut out the “Happy memory” portion of the program. In fact, for the sake of this woman, for the next few years at the tea we acted like Christmas was a big tragedy. “Oh, we know how miserable so many people feel this time of year.” To feel happy about the Incarnation was to be insensitive for a few years there. Then we woke up and said, “No more of this! Christmas is a time to rejoice!” So we got back on track with being happy about Christmas. The woman in question wasn’t any happier the years we catered to her wishes anyway. She was always upset about something.

    Regarding Mothers Day, you may not be a mother but everyone has a mother. If she’s alive, cherish her the best you can. If she’s passed away, remember all the good times you had with her. Go put some roses on her grave. Drink a mimosa in her name. It’s not all about us anyway. I really hate it when people steal other people’s joy.

  110. Xenia says:

    A lot of things get celebrated that I am not the focus of, being that I am not the center of the universe. I went to graduations when I myself was aching to return to college. I go to weddings even though we were married by a rent-a-pastor in a house trailer. I go celebrate people when they get awards, even though I didn’t get one.

    A good friend could not have children and I am know she felt wistful Sunday but she brought a delicious homemade cheesecake to church for the Mother’s Day brunch and wished us all Happy Mother’s Day. Maybe she was a little sad, if so, she kept it to herself. That’s being a mature person, isn’t it?

  111. Xenia says:

    Regarding Number 4, most Orthodox side with the Palestinian people. Not the bomb- throwers or the suicide bombers, but the ordinary people, many of whom are Orthodox Christians.

  112. Xenia says:

    I looked at a few minutes of the video of Pastor Chuck and the other guy. Pastor Chuck doesn’t look like he’s feeling so good. 🙁

  113. London says:

    #10 I find it harder to forgive those I love sometimes.
    The betrayal and wounds seem deeper and thus take more time to heal.

  114. Believe,
    Thanks for the 110.
    I’m still in process over so many things too numerous to list.

    Keep on keeping on. Jesus’ grace be upon us.

  115. PP Vet says:

    Well I have no accomplishments to speak of, but I can claim 10 happy years of marriage.

    Spread over 34 years.

  116. brian says:

    1. It was a rather rough Mother’s Day for myself. I am glad others had a fine day. My students all made Mother’s day cards and that was really fun.
    2. Ehrmann is a hack with just as much of a shtick as KJv only folks to be honest. I use to really listen to Dr. Ehrmann but then I listened to a Dividing line where Dr. White spoke about the debate he had Dr. White came for free and Dr. Ehrmann got five grand, I think that is an accurate account of the story.

    3. I have had a few times when I did not have medical or dental insurance or money. In this nation, that is a crime often punishable by death. Literally; in the richest nation that has ever existed in the entire history of human kind to not be able to give health care to its entire population is a shame. I understand that is a sin and even apostasy but it is how I think.

    4. I listened to the show; I don’t think their heart is in it. One can only live with that nonsense, and it is utter total nonsense ^2 for so long. It seems Pastor Smith has milked this cow for far too long but I don’t blame him it is a really reliable funding stream. I am not saying he does this for this reason I am sure he thinks it might be true. I was drawn to the Christian faith via profitcy (prophecy) with the satanic ritual abuse stuff on the 70’s and early 80’s. It was a cottage industry, though it ruined many lives, which is completely irrelevant, there were some rather colorful folks. The Satanist / witch / illuminati / mason / fill in the blank convert.

    I had a relatively worthless conversion, no big ticket street creds for me, just some poor slob that actually bought into the whole Jesus loves you thing. I really bought into the end of the world thing and patterned my life after it. Its my fault for being so stupid and pathetic for believing it, even though I should believe it so I can continue to fellowship with these people I love, which is also stupid but that is another post. Pastor Reis came on after I watched Pastor Smith, he spoke about people handing him million dollar checks and such and how God lead him here and there. I never had any money handed me, I have prayed and even asked (two times), something I am totally ashamed of. It really is a strange religion.

    7. I have began to really appreciate Dr. Packer, I know people online in the ODM that hate him almost as much as they do Rick Warren.

    8. There were some folks online after Mr. Camping had his strokes that were glad and he got what he had coming. I have and continue to work with survivors of strokes. No one “deserves” a stroke that is just stupid.

    9. It generates big bucks, what else is necessary?

    10. I have a hard time making friends that wont scare me with a vengeance, I actually use to go look for it, another gift from my evangelical past.

  117. I just watched the entire His Channel video. I was very disappointed that they don’t warn the Jews against doing sacrifices. To help lead these people into such a blasphemous act is unimaginable.

    Yet they complain about the RCC mass as being a re sacrifice of Christ.

    I think satan may be the leader of these christian zionists – (I’m not saying that they follow satan, but I think he has set up this shell game for these guys to play in.

    And btw,,I don’t think Israel is under anymore threat or pressure today than they have been since their inception in 1948

  118. Believe says:

    PP Vet said, “Well I have no accomplishments to speak of, but I can claim 10 happy years of marriage.

    Spread over 34 years.”

    ROTFLOL! 😆 That was really funny 🙂

    brian, great to see you, totally agree. I hate guys like Erhman, I don’t want to be him. I guess I need to exercise some self-control and turn off the skeptic and just do like X said the other day and be intentional about it. I think you may struggle a little with the same tendency (not meant as an accusation, just as a mutual connection, your posts always tend to resonate with me).

  119. Believe says:

    G, amen bro. Thanks again. You’ve been a real encouragement.

  120. brian says:

    Actually I struggle much with it, I am way past you to be honest but God wont let go of me, even when I pray He will, just to prove that He is there.Which proves He is there, if that makes any sense. Believe your father was wrong, shame on him but you have become more then your father, if that is not the grace of God I do not know what is.

  121. Nonnie says:

    Babs, your 93. Yes, I agree. I felt conflicted writing it. But there ya go.
    I’ll hope the best for TB…..
    (But I have never seen anything I could say that was “positive” about him/his “ministry.”)

    Cracked pot and cynical Nonnie

  122. Babylon's Dread says:

    Nonnie, if TB was the only pot God was pouring through … I dunno if I would ever receive myself…

    Dried Up Dread

  123. mike says:

    Ann Lamott is not a christian author. It troubles me why there are so many who just accept at face value when someone says or represents themselves as ‘christian’ without actually taking the time to examine what they ‘actually’ believe or promote or stand for.
    Just one example of such an examination of ann lamott http://danielrandle.blogspot.com/2006/06/problematic-anne-lamott.html?m=1

    Might give you a clue as to why her article on mother’s day was so bad.
    -MIC

  124. London says:

    Oh please.

  125. @127
    Never read Ann Lamott before reading the link included in ThIT. Probably won’t again as I find pro-death authors hard to stomach.

  126. London says:

    Oh for Pete’s sake!
    You never read the woman herself, but you’ll believe some random blog writer you’ve never heard of before either and decide she is “pro-death” based on his interpretation of a ten year old article?
    His “evidence” also includes that she dated a non-believer? Horrors! She’s probably also a (shutter) Democrat!
    Can’t be having women like that writing books, claiming the name of Jesus and getting away with it, now can we?

  127. London,
    Do you actually think in the age of google that I would not be able to find out her views?
    Here is her views on abortion from her own mouth.
    http://www.beliefnet.com/Video/Beliefnet-Interviews/Anne-Lamott/Anne-Lamott-On-Abortion.aspx

    And to think you used the same argument for Pat Robertson yesterday…..

  128. London says:

    I didn’t comment on pat Robertson yesterday. I commented that PPVet doesn’t have a good track record for being able to tell the buffoons from the the rest of the crowd.
    It was actually more a comment about that fool Todd Bentley and mostly just a way to poke PPV with a stick.
    Pat Robertson is a buffoon too, but I would never say like Mike did about Lamott that he wasn’t a Christian.

    And of course I think you can use google. Don’t be ridiculous.

  129. Michael says:

    I would not say that Anne Lamott is not a Christian.
    I would say that she’s very wrong on this issue…often when people come to Christ later in life they come with a lot of baggage.
    It will be interesting to see where she stands in ten years.

  130. Then why would you just immediately jump to the conclusion that I bought the article hook line and sinker? I always check to make sure someone isn’t just making things up. Democrat or non-believing boyfriend didn’t factor in. Only views on abortion, always a non-starter for me.

  131. London says:

    It was actually Mike that I thought was making a comment worthy of scorn. But you just came along and gave me more fodder for scorn.
    But he started it…with his arrogant statement about her not being Christian and using some random no name blog owner who thinks dating a non believer and speaking like an artist, means you aren’t “Christian enough” for his taste so he thinks he gets to declare her non-Christian.

    This place raises my blood pressure sometimes!

  132. Scorn seems to be a big thing with some people on here. Maybe me too.
    May want to get that looked at.

  133. G
    @110 maybe it was your delivery but I got a good chuckle from this line: “jive-ass-pastors”

  134. I just retread the posts and came upon an odd term…

    “Christian writer”

    How about understanding artists, musicians, composers & songwriters, authors as being persons, complex, unique individuals, with individual creative expressions comprising a body of work, expressing the wide range of their humanity which includes their spirituality?

    The term “Christian”, in these cases, cheapens the person and their art because it lessens them to a labeled commodity, and a poorly defined one at that, to be categorized, immediately accepted or rejected solely on the label and not on the merits of the quality of their expression.

  135. Steve Hopkins,
    Present company excluded from the rant 😉

  136. …about j-a pastors

  137. I would like to apologize to PP Vet and Nonnie, if I was heaping any scorn on Pat Robertson yesterday. I can see from your posts that you believe he has contributions to the Kingdom. I only believe that he should limit his own airtime, because it seems the more time he has to say things the more ridiculous things come from his mouth and these are often detrimental to the Kingdom (at least from my limited view).

  138. Nonnie says:

    Derek, that is very gracious of you. But no apology need to me. Bless you!

  139. Nonnie, just realized that I am guilty of scorn as well. Propaganda said it best in his song “Precious Puritans”

    “So, I guess it’s true.
    God really does use crooked sticks to make straight lines.” ~Propaganda

  140. Xenia says:

    I read a few of Ms. LaMott’s writings and did not see anything that made me want to jump up and shout Hallelujah. She seems to be enjoying a Christianity of her own making and her fans appear to like her writings because they make them feel good about being a Christian.

    But I would never say she is not a Christian. Like all of us, she is a work in progress. However, with so many other good things to read out there, I don’t see much reason to spend any more timing reading iffy material. May God bless her on her journey.

  141. Xenia says:

    Maybe a “Christian writer,” in this context, is someone who writes and opines about Christianity from a Christian perspective. If they were writing about car repair, it would not matter if they were a “Christian writer” or not but if they want to offer their opinions about Christianity, it is an appropriate label.

  142. Nonnie says:

    Amen, Xenia. May God bless her on her journey. I am certainly not the same person I was 20 years ago. I am so thankful for God’s patience and grace.

  143. Frosted Flake says:

    G,
    Christian is a category not a practice in today’s church. Believer is a moniker not an activety. Sad really, we throw around the terms without considering the lost meaning.

  144. Frosted Flake says:

    “Christian” music pretty much died as it became less about art and more about propaganda and “selling” a belief system. When the honesty and passion left so did the Holy Spirit. If the integrity returns so will the listeners.

  145. Nonnie says:

    FF, I think it just became “Selling” and not much more than that for some “Christian” musicians. If not the musicians, then for the record companies that signed them and trapped them.

  146. The older I get the more respect I have for old hymns. I have some newer songs that I like, but I find the majority I really like are older. I grew up on them and there is a reason that many have lasted hundreds of years, because they speak truths about God.
    lol…The worst thing is when the worship leader tries to introduce a new song that nobody knows. Watching and participating in that is always a trip!

  147. Nonnie says:

    Derek, I agree with you on the hymns! Many of them of rich and wonderful. I have heard some dirges too, that are literally a drag. So I guess it’s all in the ear of the hearer.

    However, my husband is a worship leader and he is so careful to choose songs that proclaim the gospel, have good doctrine, and can be sung by a congregation. We are exhorted to “sing a new song,” so I appreciate new songs, but certainly not more than 1 in a service. (hopefully)

    Even more important, though, IMHO, is that the songs be introduced in a way that the congregation can join in and not as a slick performance. I confess that I tire of worship bands that start off songs with “And a 1, 2, 3 !” Or the guitar solos, the drum solos, the leader moving all over the “stage” with his skinny jeans and being in rock star mode. Ugh.

    But then again, I am a just a grumpy old lady. 😀

  148. PP Vet says:

    The lamestream media make a big deal when PR says something that they can make hay over.

    How sad when Christians are suckered into buying the liberal media’s caricature of our family members.

    I often wonder what my public image would be if the liberal media did the same thing to me. Or what yours would be.

    I think PR decided at some point he was not going to worry about his PR, and he was just going to speak his mind.

    I say, more power to him.

  149. I agree. I have seen people try to introduce songs to worship in a congregation that are strictly “solo” songs. Luckily the experiment usually last that one time….till the next time 🙂
    I don’t care for the slick performances or when the worship leader goes off on a solo tangent in the middle of a congregational song. Guess that is another reason I am preferring to go to a small church when I return to MS. Things like that don’t tend to be the thing in small churches. Going to a larger church has opened my eyes to some of their flaws and some of my own preferences. Would go to the church I used to attend, but that drive to Memphis was getting to be too much for a Sunday Morning, an hour there and back takes up the majority of the day. Thinking trying out the FBC of Byhalia, my sister-in-law attends there with her kids.

  150. erunner says:

    I just read the Mother’s Day article and felt a bit sad for the author. I have run the same article for Mother’s Day for six years. The topic is delicate (infertility) but Shannon Woodward who wrote the article handled it beautifully. http://morethancoping.wordpress.com/2013/05/07/shannon-woodward-mothers-day-from-an-infertile-mothers-perspective-2/

    I seem to enjoy a lot of Christian music that others look down upon. I like Maranatha, Hillsong, Vineyard, Jesus Culture, and several other solo acts as well as other groups. They’ve meant a lot to me through the years and have helped me through some difficult times.

    I know nothing about the art of music. The chords involved, the repetition of certain riffs if that is something. I’ve always been drawn to music quite a bit by the sound and then the lyrics. It’s quite simple for me and what works for me probably would make many who are musicians quite ill. 🙂

    I do have a comment that is as much for me as anyone else who might fit the profile. People who write and perform Christian music do so as an expression of their heart to God. Some of the music I simply don’t like and it’s easy to speak negatively of it. Yet if that music is offered in sincerity of heart I have to believe it is beautiful to God. And if that is the case I may say I don’t enjoy the music itself but I better be slow to go beyond that. I used to look down my nose at the old hymns and couldn’t begin to enjoy them but that’s changed thru the years.

    And I no longer feel like the spawn of satan for enjoying the Beatles and other groups I grew up with in my youth. That was a very difficult time early on in my Christian life. I was so happy when it became okay to listen to Bob Dylan after Slow Train Coming!! 🙂

  151. Xenia says:

    If I were not going to be an Orthodox Christian (will never happen, but for the sake of conversation) I would join the Pentecostals. God shows up at their churches. Sometimes other things are mistaken for God so you have to be careful.

  152. Xenia says:

    Whenever I want to sneer at Contemporary Christian Music, I consider eRunner and hush my mouth.

  153. Nonnie says:

    E, I truly appreciate your take on music and your website.

    But I also believe that some of the”Christian” music out there is written because the company told the writer they want a song about communion, or marriage, or some other theme, not because it just “came” to them from “the heart.” They are writing a song that will “sell.”

    I hear you about the “secular” music too. We went through that same phase as young Christians. I am rediscovering the Kinks and the 4 Tops.

    Currently the Christian music I enjoy listening to is John Michael Talbots new music and Robin Mark. Go figure.

    I have a lot of opinions that really don’t matter much. 😉

  154. erunner says:

    Thank you Xenia.

    Nonnie, I have had a bit of trouble understanding how songs “come from the Lord.” I have no idea what songs actually do come from His guiding/prompting.

    I have read a lot about people write things so as to turn a profit and that’s something to chew on. What strikes me a s humorous at times are when people “in the know” are very critical of a lot of music yet when you listen to what they like makes you wonder a bit! 🙂

    I enjoy JMT and Robin Mark and I just came across “The Lord’s Supper” that JMT did decades ago and has stood the test of time. I pretty much have everything Robin has recorded so I admire your taste!!

  155. I really like Robin Mark! I have a 4 albums of his on my iPod.
    And for the record, I don’t have any ax to grind against CCM, my preferences just tend to older hymns. Probably because I know a lot of them by heart and my voice is better suited to them.

    If any one thinks that controversies about music are new here is a story I read in a biography about Horatius Bonar last year. If I get any details a bit wrong, sorry I am going from memory.
    Horatius Bonar wrote a lot of hymns. At the time though, the Scottish Presbyterian Church almost exclusively used the Psalter. Bonar’s hymns got famous in America and eventually they were actually sung in Bonar’s own church. Two elders got up and walked out.

  156. I will say that I never want to be one of those people like Josh mentioned on the “Questioning the Faith”. Which means, so set in my ways that I think if you don’t sing the old hymns or use the KJV, that you are going to hell.

  157. Keep in mind, that was a coffee shop, not a worship service! 🙂

    I’m a worship leader, steeped in the Maranatha, Hillsong, and Tomlin stuff. The last couple of years, I’ve been digging back into hymns. I play at least one hymn every Sunday now.

    Something else I would have been afraid to admit just a few years ago: Bill and Gloria Gaither are phenomenal songwriters.

  158. Songs don’t “come from The Lord”, there is no “gift of music”, anymore than there is a “gift of art”. It’s called “talent”, which is cultivated by any individual being encouraged to be creative, to learn their craft and devote countless hours sketching, drawing, playing scales, chords, songs, learning music and art theory, for writers it’s learning a language, learning grammar, reading and absorbing literary greats and leaning how to emulate then ultimately finding ones voice. “Christian” marketing of “Christian” products has only cheapened the arts, made us” lesser than” by saying a person is “anointed” when the fact is that a person is “committed”.

  159. Crowned1 says:

    PP @ 153

    “How sad when Christians are suckered into buying the liberal media’s caricature of our family members.”

    The liberal media conspiracy theories get old. PR outing himself as a false prophet is the blame of no one but himself.

    “I often wonder what my public image would be if the liberal media did the same thing to me. Or what yours would be.”

    How do you know the black CNN helicopters aren’t outside watching you? Their probably forming a liberal opinion of you as we speak.

    “I say, more power to him.”

    I say, no power to him, and all power & glory to Jesus Christ.

  160. erunner,
    You’re providing a great service, sharing what inspires you. You are doing your art in a way that enriches those who participate!

  161. Crowned1 says:

    Derek @ 161

    Various bible translations have thankfully remained truthful to John 3:16. Many things differ between them yes, but the Source of our salvation remains a constant.

    Even through our “clarifications” of His Word, God would not allow the only Truth that can save you to be hidden. His will be done.

  162. PP Vet says:

    How blind and how stupid do you have to be to come on a web site anonymously and throw crap at a great man like PR.

    It just baffles me.

  163. Says a guy who is anonymously throwing crap at other great people.

  164. Crowned1 says:

    PP @ 167

    “How blind and how stupid do you have to be to come on a web site anonymously and throw crap at a great man like PR”

    I once was blind, but now I see. There was a time I professed to be wise & idolized spiritual men…I was found to be a fool. I would agree with you that I am now ‘stupid for Jesus’.

    Again, nothing was thrown at PR except a mirror. As for anonymity, identity theft & spam mail are not my idea of fun, so I avoid much personal information on public forums.

    “It just baffles me”

    Idolizing a man baffles publicly recorded as a false prophet baffles me even more

  165. Crowned1 says:

    excuse the duplicate ‘baffles’

  166. Shaun Sells says:

    FYI – at the 19:25 mark of the video with Chuck and Don they specifically say that they support Palestinian Christians and Palestinian churches in Israel. So, apparently Chuck can both support Israel and Palestinian christians – contrary to the overreaction here.

  167. Nonnie says:

    “So, apparently Chuck can both support Israel and Palestinian christians.” Now that makes sense. However, was the church in the San Diego are NOT doing the same?
    Was that church anti Israel and pro Palestinian ? When I listened to it, I couldn’t figure out what CS was so upset about.

  168. PP Vet says:

    “Says a guy who is anonymously throwing crap at other great people.”

    When? Who? The only people I ever attack directly are MLD and our gracious host. And I do that in love, because I know that it will only make them stronger, because they are men of stature.

    If you have somewhere else where I attacked someone, using their real name, please show everybody.

    Otherwise, shut up. 🙂

  169. “How blind and how stupid do you have to be”

    That’s for starters. Just chill. Pat has said some dumb things over the years. You like him, and that’s fine. No need to insult others for their observations.

  170. Shaun Sells says:

    #172 – I agree Nonnie, I am not sure what the actual concern with the church in San Diego was.

    It may have more to do with what the group they brought in stands for, but I have never heard of that group. I guess I could research them in my free time…

  171. Who is the group they brought in, and what is the church in San Diego? Like I said back @ 28 – I can think of tons of things Palestinian groups could talk about that would not be appropriate at a church. I’d just like to know the issue.

  172. Looks like it was North Coast Church and the guy’s name is Sami Awad.

  173. Michael says:

    Here’s his website http://www.holylandtrust.org

  174. London says:

    Shut up???? 😯

  175. MIchael beat me to it 🙂

  176. Kevin H says:

    I don’t know much of anything about the event nor the speaker, but here is an article written by Sami Awad giving a little bit of his personal story and what he and his organization is trying to accomplish.

    Now I’m sure if we were to research his organization and all his beliefs we could find things with which some of us would disagree. But at the very least, it would seem this man could provide a valuable perspective to the Israeli/Palestinean conflict as one who is a Christian and is trying to accomplish peace.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/sami-awad/love-your-enemy-really_b_868194.html

  177. Michael says:

    My guess would be that these people advocate for a Palestinian state…which means they might as well be lobbying for lesbian pastors in CC.

  178. All that being said, maybe he’s fine, but if that is his message…rather than the Gospel of Christ, I wouldn’t have him at my church either.

  179. Well, ok, let’s lay off Pat Robertson.
    Don’t upset P Vet lest he calls on God to send in the bears!

  180. Since when did support for Israel or Palestine become a litmus test for being a follower of Jesus?

    I thought Jesus’ “Great Commission” was a simple call for His followers to go out, proclaim the good news of reconciliation with God through Him, and bid all persons to become His followers.

    When did there become a need to complicate things with earthly kingdoms, flags and geography?

  181. PP Vet says:

    G, you continue to grow in wisdom. 🙂

    I always look up to anyone who has been saved longer than me, even if only by a couple months.

  182. Kevin H says:

    Josh,

    I wouldn’t know if I would want this man speaking at my church or not. I don’t know enough about him or his message to make a judgment. If his message would be mainly centered on politics and not the gospel, then I wouldn’t want him. But even if that were the case, he’d probably still be a worthwhile perspective to listen to in some kind of setting.

    The interesting thing is that some factions of CC will have Israeli Christians as speakers whose main message is giving political/military/current event updates of Israel and the Middle East and connecting them to “prophecy”. Very little or no gospel at all in these presentations. But if somebody gives the platform to a Palestinean Christian, well then…

  183. @ 188 – Agreed completely. Don’t know anything about CC and pro-Israeli speakers, but no, I wouldn’t want them in my church either.

  184. Nonnie says:

    Kevin H. some CC’s have Israeli Jews (not believers) speak in the church. Obviously the topic is not the gospel. If memory serves me correctly, Netanyahu has spoken in at least one CC that I know of.

    I’m not a political person and would prefer politics would stay out of the sanctuary .

  185. Dave says:

    Sami’s got a great message and a great cause.

    Shaun – I dont think anyone ever said CC was anti Palestine, but we noticed that there’s an imbalanced focus. You can claim you love your Palestinian brothers all you want but if you dont give them support while giving it to another, its imbalanced. If anyone points that out they get labeled a “Replacement Theologian” Which is a cannard anyway, but a balanced view is just not there at the moment.

    When CC has a missions trip ; and sends resources to the struggling churches in Palestine Ill believe they are a priority. As it is now all the resources are in the Israel basket based on a 100 year old literal hermeneutic that ignores church history and the words of Christ. If we are putting bibles in China, we can put pastors in Palestine.

  186. Kevin H says:

    “@ 188 – Agreed completely.” – You even agree with my chronic misspelling of “Palestinean” that I just realized I was doing? 🙂

  187. Nonnie says:

    Dave, the CC I attend here in the UK gives a lot of missions money to a variety of ministries in Israel and some of that goes to Arab pastors and churches in Israel.

  188. Kevin H says:

    Nonnie,

    I didn’t know, but having non-Christian Israelies speak in church doesn’t surprise me either. I was only personally aware of a Christian Israeli who is a semi-regular speaker in some CC’s. And I agree with your preference of keeping politics out of the sanctuary. At least to the extent which we are speaking of here.

  189. Nonnie’s #190

    I can’t say I am not political, cause I am to an extent, but I am not comfortable with it in church. Definitely don’t want it in the sanctuary. Have had to put up with it in Sunday School, the “Obamanation” guy gets really old after a while and never seems to take the hints or sometimes outright “Hey, not appropriate.”
    American Christians, have a hard time separating their politics, left or right, from their beliefs and find inventive ways to find it in scripture.

  190. @ 192 – Yes. Especially with the misspellings.

    @ 191 – My church, right now, is only supporting missionaries in The Phillipines and in The Ukraine. Is every church obligated to give to every country in the world?

  191. PP Vet,
    I’m just starting to get a clue 😉

  192. Dave says:

    The CC down the street from me had a complete Jewish festival from dancing to festivities, all the bells and whistles. Not that that’s wrong, but no Jews attend the church, they should do one for every ethnicity. If they are going to allow that but attack the SD CC for Sami that’s ridiculous.

    God never elected an ethnicity to salvation and we would do well to remember that.

  193. Josh #196
    Every church I have been to has supported about 2-4 missionaries in about the same amount of countries. I think this is a wise strategy and ensures that the money is targeted better.

  194. @ 198 – I don’t think anyone here is arguing with you.

    When Sami speaks at a church, does he preach the Gospel, or is it something about Palestinian / Israeli peace?

    @ 199 – I agree. We just can’t do everything, and there are certainly people in need of the Gospel worldwide. God just hasn’t given us the ability to reach all of them.

  195. @200- Which is why my wife and I try to give money to organizations that support persecuted Christians around the world. Anything that my small contribution can help with somewhere in even a small way is helpful.

  196. Nonnie says:

    Gal 6:9-10
    And let us not grow weary of doing good, for in due season we will reap, if we do not give up. So then, as we have opportunity, let us do good to everyone, and especially to those who are of the household of faith.

  197. Xenia says:

    A lot of Calvary Chapelites that I have known were borderline Messianics. They hold Christianized Seders each year, talk about how we should observe the “biblical” feasts and not the “pagan” feasts of Christmas and Easter, avoid pork, write “g-d,” flirt with joining Messianic congregations, etc. At my old CC everyone really enjoyed Israeli-sounding songs with Christian lyrics. This was not everyone, but it was a definite strain that ran through my old CC. One of my old CC friends has actually joined a Messianic congregation and keeps the Sabbath, keeps koshers, thinks I am a complete pagan, etc.

    I can usually relate to a little bit of something in almost (almost) every Christian group but I have no affinity whatsoever with these fake Jews. (A Jew who becomes a Christian and hangs on to some of his cultural heritage is ok in my book.)

  198. Xenia says:

    I was invited to a Christianized Seder one year, held at the home of a CC leader. It was quite contrived and II felt like a poser the whole time. I remember thinking that I hoped no genuine Jew showed up to embarrass us all when he saw our earnest but rather silly pretensions.

  199. IS that sort of like what Paul would call Judaizers?

  200. #203 and 204
    I have come upon Christians like that a lot too.
    All I can say is, my Passover Lamb was sacrificed long ago and my Lamb replaced the Seder with Communion.

  201. I find hanging out with real Jews, observant or otherwise, a heck of a lot more fun than my days of doing a lame Calvary Chapel version of trying to add in stuff that is not my heritage.

  202. Xenia says:

    An interesting thing to think about is that despite some of the Israeli-sounding songs and using menorahs as church decorations, etc, synagogue worship was much closer in style to liturgical church services than to evangelical services. Liturgical church services are based on synagogue worship.

  203. Xenia,
    Agree, my experiences with my Jewish friends are totally familiar with my Roman Catholic liturgical upbringing. Having journeyed through charismatic and evangelical settings I find liturgy more familiar and reassuring and the gathering ceases to be about how entertaining the pastor/preacher might be. it’s only taken me 40 years to start understanding and rediscovering the value of liturgy

  204. Shaun Sells says:

    Xenia and ( |o )====:::

    Is it possible that both liturgical and evangelical ways of doing church are valuable, viable, and from God?

    Is it possible that liturgical is where God is speaking to you now Xenia,
    and disorganized discussion is where God is reaching you ( |o )====::: ,
    and God is reaching others through small evangelical churches,
    and others through entertaining mega churches

    and each is pleasing to the creative God who made the horse, the donkey, and the zebra – so similar, but also completely different?

    Just a thought from a guy who regularly hears from people who grew up in liturgical churches and never understood the gospel there, but now feel God moving in their life in a Calvary Chapel.

    It is beautiful if you think about the variety in the body of Christ.

  205. Xenia says:

    LOL you guys are always trying to get me to say that one kind of church activity is just as good as another. :p

  206. The Jewish stuff in the church is just ridiculous. Messianic Jews (I cringe at the name having been Jewish) were saved out of a false religion – just as Muslims are. Do we admire churches that do Muslim traditions? Women dressed in classic cultural berkas.

  207. Reuben says:

    Just got home from 11 straight flat out hours of insane work. Have not had the chance to read everything. But I saw Shaun’s question. I agree with Shaun, and disagree. I agree that there is a variety of ways. I disagree that Liturgy fails the gospel. I would guess it depends on where you go. Anglicans, such as us, have the gospel throughout the liturgy. I would not necessarily expect the same results from episcopal churches. The ones around here believe nothing. That may vary elsewhere. The big lutheran church in CO teaches nothing, but then again, there are factions of Lutherans as anything else.

  208. Shaun Sells says:

    quick correction Reuben – I did not say the liturgy fails the gospel – the liturgy is the gospel presentation, I said that some did not understand it there.

    My youth guy is a great example – grew up in the Lutheran church, went to catechism, and no doubt heard the gospel 1000 times, but didn’t grasp it. He grasped it in a Calvary Chapel. Meanwhile, the same guys dad grasped the gospel at the same Lutheran church but doesn’t enjoy Calvary. Calvary wasn’t better, it was just the tool God used to turn that guy around. The Lutheran church wasn’t better, it was just the tool God used to turn that guy around.

    God’s toolbox is like most of ours – more than one wrench to accomplish the job in different scenarios, but they all turn the nut in the right direction.

    As one of the nuts that got turned around, I say Praise God for the wrenches of the Gideons Bible and a little baptist church.

  209. Xenia says:

    People who say they never heard the Gospel in liturgical church just weren’t paying attention. Also, you have to take into account that when people leave one form of religion for another, there’s that human tendency to trash the old place.

  210. Shaun,
    Appreciate the question.

    “…disorganized discussion is where God is reaching you”… not so much anymore, I’m more appreciative of liturgy, meditation, just being quiet and still.

    I’m convinced “God’s People” is a population far more diverse than any of us can imagine, timeless, stretching across continents, each individual proceeding with their faith journey, God revealing Himself these individuals within the gatherings and outside the traditional camps as well. I believe in diversity, practice it and celebrate it, trusting that Jesus is always at work in the life of whomever I’m standing next to.

  211. Xenia says it well…

    “People who say they never heard the Gospel in liturgical church just weren’t paying attention.”

  212. catherine says:

    I hesitate to add this, but I am a born Jew, who now believes in Jesus…I have of late, the last year or so, have found in Xenia a place that I am most comfortable in…I might even visit the orthodox Russian Church(the only one) in our area, though I just read in the obits that their Priest, Father? has died in the last two weeks. I have always loved liturgical churches, since growing up in a conservative synagouge where the whole service was in Hebrew, the chazzen led the prayers and it was all scripture. But the main thing I like, and that resonates with me on a very deep level is Xenia’s life of faith. I sat in a Calvary church with my husband for 14 years and wonder how I survived. Xenia’s practice of her faith is most persuasive.

  213. I think that who “hears the Gospel” or however you want to say it may also be an age thing. I know many evangelical and CC kids who go until mom and dad stop making them go who leave seeing no value in staying (which I would assume can be only because they did not hear the gospel – only to come back perhaps 10 years later and have a “new awakening”

  214. Catherine,
    I made the point the other day that the early church was just a copycat of the Jewish synagogues and the Jewish liturgy. Some disagreed.

  215. This book makes the case for the Jewish impact of the 1st century liturgy.

    http://www.amazon.com/Heaven-Earth-Christ-Divine-Service/dp/0758606710

  216. catherine says:

    MLD, I agree with you, but I am not sure that you see the value in that as I do.
    If I have misread you, please forgive me. I see many elements of Judaism, or the practices of Judaism, the symbolism etc, in traditional christianity, The liturgical reading of the scriptures is very familiar to me after a lifetime of reading in this responsive way in my conservative synagogue. I think the Jewish impact was huge in the 1st century, because after all, the first century church was filled with Jews, and they practiced in the manner of their fathers.

  217. Xenia says:

    Catherine, God bless you in your journey in Christ. If I can be of any help, please email me diane.xenia AT gmail DOT com. I might be able to answer any questions you might have without boring the good folks here at the PhxP to tears. 🙂

  218. catherine says:

    Thank you Xenia!

  219. Believe says:

    G said, “I’m convinced “God’s People” is a population far more diverse than any of us can imagine, timeless, stretching across continents, each individual proceeding with their faith journey, God revealing Himself these individuals within the gatherings and outside the traditional camps as well. I believe in diversity, practice it and celebrate it, trusting that Jesus is always at work in the life of whomever I’m standing next to.”

    I think if it’s real and true, then that is probably how it really is. Lots more in the Tent than the Fundamentalists realize…and lots of Fundamentalists who are probably the “But Lord, didn’t I do this and that in your name!”

  220. London says:

    Derek,

    I wanted to apologize to you for yesterday.
    Mike’s declaration about Ann Lamott not being a christian and then the lame blog post he linked to as “evidence” such as dating a non-christian just triggered something deep in me about folks thinking other folks aren’t “good enough” at being Christian for their tastes….and you happened to walk into it with the next post with your abortion comment.

    That whole “not Jesusy enough” thing is a BIG trigger for me but you didn’t really deserve do get the fullness of that.

    You have every right to choose whom to read or not read based on whatever criteria you choose.

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