Jan 302016
 

Saeed-Abedini-ACLJ“Two weeks ago today I was released from an Iranian prison after being held captive for three-and-a-half years. My crime? Being a Christian and refusing to renounce my faith in Jesus Christ. Throughout my imprisonment my wife Naghmeh drew national attention to my case and encouraged millions of people to pray for my release. God answered those prayers and brought me safely home. Naghmeh has been a hero to me and suffered enormously as a result of being 7,000 miles away from me and being a single parent to our two precious children while traveling and leading a crusade on my behalf. I will always love her for her sacrifice.

Last November, Naghmeh began to write about our marriage on her Facebook page and suspended her public advocacy for me. Her Facebook reports have been widely reported in other media outlets, raising questions about me, and the state of our marriage. As a prisoner in Iran I was not able to respond to her comments and accusations. I have chosen not to respond in the two weeks I have been back in America because I believe personal issues are best dealt with personally.

When I arrived in America I went to the Billy Graham Training Center in North Carolina with my parents and my sister, fully expecting Naghmeh and our children to join me there. She chose instead to remain at home in Idaho, and when I arrived there this week I was met with news that she had filed a domestic relations case, apparently in order to ensure our children could remain in the state. Of course, I had no intention of taking our children away from our home or our state.

This latest development, which Naghmeh first made public, leads me to offer this brief statement.

1. Our marriage is under great stress and I am hoping and praying for healing and restoration.

2. I love my wife and want God’s will for both of our lives.

3. I am a sinner, saved only by the wonderful grace of God. While I am far from perfect—as a man or as a husband, I am seeking every day to submit to God as He molds me into what He wants me to be.

4. Much of what I have read in Naghmeh’s posts and subsequent media reports is not true. But I believe we should work on our relationship in private and not on social media or other media. Naghmeh wrote this week, “We are taking personal time to work on very serious personal issues.” I intend to do this hard work in private.

5. The God I serve today is the same God I served while being interrogated and beaten in some of the harshest prison conditions in the world and He is capable of restoring a marriage that has withstood unbelievable pressure. I ask for prayer for another victory.

It is not my intention to speak further publicly—through social media or any other channels—at least until I believe we have made significant progress in private. I thank you for your understanding and support.”
Read more here: http://www.idahostatesman.com/news/local/community/boise/article57514008.html#storylink=cpy

  111 Responses to “Saeed Denies Charges”

  1. Ok. Call my gullible. I’m gonna give the guy the benefit of the doubt…and hope he not lying through his teeth. Maybe three years in prison gave him time to think about what’s really important in life. Not my place to throw the first stone.

    I am committed to praying for this couple… and hope for the very best, both for them, and for the Glory of God.

  2. So basically… She’s a liar but I want to work it out?

    I note that he doesn’t address his domestic violence charge…

  3. i’m with Paige, it’s still time to pray

  4. When I arrived in America I went to the Billy Graham Training Center in North Carolina with my parents and my sister, fully expecting Naghmeh and our children to join me there.
    ————————————————————–
    That answers one of my questions. She had first said they were going to get counsel from the BGTC and then she did not even fly to North Carolina. Until she says “I wanted to come and Saeed forbid me from coming and the BGTC agreed that it would be best for me not to come” then I will believe him on this one question – and take with a huge, massive grain of salt her repeated pleas of wanting nothing more than working out their problems and being reconciled.

    Step one to this desired reconciliation would have been joining his parents and sister and bring yourself and the kids to meet the guy when he got off the plane after 3.5 years in Iran.

  5. Let’s not parse too much from this. They both say they want a miracle of reconciliation. Let’s let them figure it out and give them a chance.

  6. We live in a world where discipline has become abuse, where my opinion is now aggression, and where disagreement constitutes a phobia. We are not friends with, nor confidants of either of these people, and to pass judgement on either is unwise and, frankly, not right. They have a marriage, like any other, that is facing some huge tests and trials, and i for one will not read any more about what should be between them and their pastor or counselor or whomever they have chosen to help rebuild their marriage. I can not begin to understand what either of them had been through, and i pray that they will find healing and reconciliation. And from this point, I will no longer read things about them that should be private. I understand that everyone seems to have an opinion about one or the other, but I choose to let them work out their own issues without me trying to add my two cents and contributing to the gossip.

  7. We are not friends with, nor confidants of either of these people,
    ————————————————————
    Actually, that is exactly how she described those on her email support/prayer group. Her friends. Her confidants.

    Your point is taken, but they do not have a marriage like any other marriage. And as Michael has stated many times, money, promotion, time and effort in large amounts were extended to this marriage….and no telling how many millions are at stake in the future book, movie, speaking rights…

    Personally, I hope they both disappear from the headlines (that means she shuts down her facebook page but I fear a response to this news article within 48 hours)

    I do hope ACLJ will explain the phone and if I asked people to use their limited prayer time to pray for flat out lies rather than the real needs of people….if I was duped into being the bearer of false witness in the name of Jesus….I know the Lord does not hold it against any of us, but I’m going to hold it against the ACLJ and make sure to never do it again.

  8. “. I am a sinner, saved only by the wonderful grace of God. While I am far from perfect—as a man or as a husband, I am seeking every day to submit to God as He molds me into what He wants me to be.”

    I don’t get why that can’t apply to most of us, it does not from my experience but I wonder why it does not.

  9. That he did not address the abuse conviction leads me to view everything he has said less than favorably, but that’s just my opinion.

  10. I am not sure Saeed had much choice about responding. “Much of what I have read in Naghmeh’s posts and subsequent media reports is not true” That is the only relevant statement to the charges and it isn’t much.

    It is not a denial of abuse.
    It is not a denial of guilt.
    It is not a denial of the central charge.
    It is a carefully crafted casting of doubt intended to grant him back his privacy.
    It really is a non denial denial
    It is Nixonian truth shaping.
    Again, it is only to buy time and regain privacy.
    O J Simpson, Bill Clinton, and the shooter of Bambi’s mother could have written it.
    It is exactly the sort of thing that sends investigations into overdrive.

  11. Well he hasn’t “denied charges,” he’s just said that not everything we’ve been told by N is true. There was a lot of self-serving Christianese in his statement.

  12. It is odd that both he and the wife say they want to work on this privately and now the crowd here will say “not good enough”.
    The demand here seems to now be “we want a bullet point response on social media to each charge.”

    I say we just let them fade into oblivion where they belong.

  13. MLD,

    I am happy to give them their privacy
    Dude spent 3.5 years in hell he doesn’t need more
    I am not actually refusing them that privilege
    I am just being my charming self and pointing out obvious things about his non private claim
    Franklinly I am happy for them to go away
    But they don’t seem to do it

  14. Babs, actually I think indirectly we enter into their mess. Between PP blog articles these folks don’t enter my world. Other than his release in the news, this blog has been the only place I am infected with their story I fulfill my need for voyeurism here only.

    You watch, they will slowly reach the level of toothless reality TV stars.

  15. I have been traveling in Arizona the past 4 days and have only my cell phone. Not being a teenager I don’t navigate the articles completely. So I must ask. Was the abuse conviction actually confirmed?

    Inquiring minds want to know.

  16. I am going to make a pretty godless statement: I don’t really like either of these people very much. There are still Christians in middle eastern prisons who need our prayers and it is for them that I will concentrate my feeble prayer efforts.

    He’s home, he’s safe, they are now no different than thousands of other couples with bad marriages. I am going to concern myself with people in my own local circle and leave this family to be cared for by their own circle of friends, relatives and pastors.

  17. The truth of this situation exists. May it emerge and shine its light. One way or another, for healing to begin, confession and repentance must be realized. And if there is a victim, may they be protected and exonerated.

  18. Steve Wright,

    I usually have great respect for what you write here. I usually get where you are coming from. Please help clarify your statements:

    “Until she says “I wanted to come and Saeed forbid me from coming and the BGTC agreed that it would be best for me not to come” then I will believe him on this one question – and take with a huge, massive grain of salt her repeated pleas of wanting nothing more than working out their problems and being reconciled.”

    Why is this? If she is the victim of abuse (we run in similar circles and folks I reached out to who know her well and directly say it’s true, as does the domestic violence conviction Saeed received) then why should she go to the BGTC? especially when Franklin Graham seems so obviously in Saeed’s camp from his statement? When the ACLJ is alleged to have compelled her to conceal the truth? If they’ll cover up Saeed’s outside contacts why couldn’t they or wouldn’t they cover up other things? I’m guessing they’ve made a lot of money from Saeed fundraising and could very well continue to do so…

    Help me understand why, under any circumstance but these especially, we should be surprised at any of Naghmeh’s actions?

  19. “It is not my intention to speak further publicly—through social media or any other channels—at least until I believe we have made significant progress in private.”

    Which most certainly means it IS his intention to speak publicly about the matter or he wouldn’t have qualified the statement with…at least until….

  20. Xenia:

    What, pray tell, makes you not “like” Nahgmeh so much? The fact she speaks openly about abuse?

    What makes you think her local church is handling this well, if at all? Just an assumption?

    I can tell you a lot right now, based on what I know, but would rather let Michael be the one to take the lead on it. There is nothing Nahgmeh has done that warrants anyone ignoring what she’s going through.

  21. Ryan, I think people are questioning her numerous emails of not being in touch with her husband for weeks on end, people were under the impression he was being beaten, starved, was ill and not receiving treatment….then she tells us he is watching porn, films and abusing her over the phone. This is the kind of information I am perplexed by and like Steve said, he feels duped by all of this.

    Now, as for her not meeting Saeed and his parents at the BGTC, I can understand that. We have to remember the CULTURE they come from. They may be Christians, but they are Iranian and the CULTURE continues to impact them. Women are not much more than a possession. The relationship between wife and mother in law can be very difficult. The Asian women I knew had very difficult relationships with their MIL and were completely under her thumb. MIL is boss over the wife and her son can do no wrong. We all saw the videos of how Saeed’s mama welcomed him.(It was beautiful!) I’m thinking Naghmeh would have been very outnumbered in a strange place and feel very uncomfortable bringing her children into an environment where everyone else was upset with her. It would have been an extremely vulnerable situation for a woman who has been abused. (re: court documents)

  22. Remembering the outcry of folks here regarding Driscoll’s attitudes and behaviors towards his wife. As Nonnie and others have indicated, anyone familiar with the cultural norms impacting this situation would understand the attitude barriers are even greater than Driscoll’s attitudes about marriage. It is possible that after seeing what is normal behavior for healthy couples in her church, Naghmeh may have realized much of the abusive treatment she accepted and experienced in the past within her marriage did not have to continue towards her AND her children. Hopefully, especially for the children’s sakes, they can find that better way to move forward in their relationship. Optimally, in private. If only for their kids’ sakes.

  23. Everyone seems concerned about the children and rightfully so. But is the best thing for the kids always that mom and dad reconcile if there is abuse in the equation? I say no. Witnessing domestic violence can be incredibly damaging to children, causing emotional problems presently and later on in life.
    I have no idea what the kids have witnessed, but those two parents do, and it should be a consideration in their reconciliation or non-reconciliation, IMO.

  24. Exactly, Cash!

  25. The problem now is with multiple threads over several days I find myself needing to repeat my concerns…people new probably think I believe she is nothing but a liar and us CC pastors all stick together yada yada. So I’ll stop here with one final repeat with no comment until new news might break. My focus is on the phone – that will answer so much because it is almost unbelievable not impossible and counters 14 months of emails and public professions. ACLJ is going to need to be the ones to answer there but that is where we either have a woman lying now or being manipulated (or joining in) with lies for all those months.

    I was asked above about my comment above concerning the counseling in North Carolina. That she needs to clarify why she did not come (and defend my strong words)

    Read this article. http://www.bpnews.net/46191/baptist-press-interviews-naghmeh-abedini

    Recognize that Naghmeh sent me (and the prayer group) her praise and admiration for Graham and recounted the wonderful time she had staying with him and speaking at several events with him just back in September…then recognize that in her thank you facebook post, still up, she calls him out for special praise as a great mentor and friend. Graham first met Saeed when he got off the plane, he had spent days with Naghmeh.

    So no, I don’t buy she does not think Graham would support her, and it sure makes no sense to think “Biblical” counseling would not be available at the BGTC.

    Saeed has publicly said he expected to see them, and she chose not to come. Even though she said she was going to literally a couple days earlier. She keeps talking about wanting reconciliation and counseling and turns it down from the person she still praises and adores…thus my comment. I am open to a reasonable reason why she might change her mind but there is a huge disconnect at present.

  26. I think that article I linked to needs to be read alongside her evangelism, teaching and ministry efforts to the Body of Christ (unrelated to Saeed entirely except as the platform) on facebook the last few months before his release (which clearly was unexpected and as much a shock to her as all of us and the world)

  27. The whole family – even before all the recent confusion – will need professional evaluation, counseling and mental health services, perhaps alongside “biblical” counsel. I cannot emphasize this enough!!

  28. Steve,

    Perhaps she might change her mind after talking to Saeed and sensing an unrepentant attitude? That is not an accusation, conjecture only. But it would be a reasonable explanation as to why she didn’t join him.

  29. To Steve Wright and others who feel duped by Naghmeh,

    I believe her when she says Saeed was abusive to her throughout their marriage, and there is the documented 2007 plea of guilty (according to the Idaho Statesman). They come from a culture where wives are not equal to husbands.

    I think that when Saeed was in prison, he was putting heavy pressure on her to overstate the awfulness of his condition. My guess is that last November, she finally reached the point where she could not keep lying about that anymore.

    The dynamics of domestic abuse are complicated. I’m sure she felt conflicted–wanting to do as much as she could to secure his release, because after all, he is the father of her children, and I’m sure she had some amount of love for him despite the abuse. But she finally reached the point where she couldn’t keep lying anymore, even if it were for a good cause.

    The three years she spent living on her own made her realize she had the strength to speak out, even if it would mean the end of her marriage. She initially just spoke out to friends, and then it was leaked.

    As far as not rushing to greet him after his release: she realized doing so would only give ground to those who doubted her allegations of abuse. She didn’t want to be part of a happy family photo op as if everything were as it should be, when it is not.

    In his statement, Saeed merely said that much of what she said and was in the media was not true–without specifying the parts he thought were untrue. He didn’t explicitly deny abusing her.

    All this is just my guesses about how things are.

    The big question for me is how much Franklin Graham and the ACLJ knew about his true conditions. Did they know about the phone?

  30. Yellow Rose, sounds reasonable.

  31. She initially just spoke out to friends, and then it was leaked.
    ———————————–
    I guess I do need to repeat myself once more….

    She initially spoke to a massive mailing email list (too big for her regular email and thus the need for a google group)…I was on it. Once and for all the idea that she confided in a couple of friends needs to end. She told hundreds to thousands of people her husband watched porn, out of the blue, along with the rest of the bombshell that sounded like it was written by another person.

    I don’t “feel” duped…I was duped. For 14 months specifically…and in turn I duped others.

    All that is left is if she lied then or is lying now…and depending on the answer, the motive will likewise change as will the explanation…Maybe ACLJ put a proverbial gun to her head and that is why she wrote us the lies she did. If so, the world (and the attorney general) need to know that.

  32. I have to say Steve that no one thinks a matter through more thoroughly than you and I appreciate it. Yellow Rose paints a reasonable picture until it is placed in the light of plain facts. There it falls apart.

  33. I appreciate Saeed making a statement rather than allowing Franklin Graham to speak for him. I honestly don’t know who to believe; I suspect that there is some truth to both of their stories. The big question is who is closer to the truth? I honestly can’t say at this point.

    At this time, neither one of them needs to be speaking publically… not in churches, conferences, or anywhere else. Both of them have far more important things to consider.

    I know a lot of people gave them their hearts and I believe them both when the say they are grateful. I hope they make it, but I have my doubts.

    The Body of Christ has had enough superstars. We don’t need martyrs, we need examples of brokenness and a willingness to embrace the small things. True life, true spirituality is not lived atop of large platforms, but in the everyday, ordinary occurrences of life. The church needs to remember that… Naghmeh and Saeed need to remember that.

    If (noticed I said IF), they fail to embrace brokenness before the Lord, they will probably end their marriage. Saeed will eventually pastor a Calvary somewhere, rising to prominence by playing the victim card for as long as it has currency. Naghmeh will become a strong advocate for women (God knows its needful) an play the victim card for as long as it has currency. And many within the church will play along being mistaken because of the apparent good works and they will tell themselves and others that they are standing for justice. In reality ,they will drift farther from God and live truncated spiritual lives because the chose to walk the avenue of fame rather than the path of brokenness..

  34. No one really picked up on it above but Saeed does not deny abusing Naghmeh.

  35. It looks like gmail has a max email of 500-2000 (not sure) and then they tell you to get into a google group. That is what happened last August, almost one year after the initial prayer chain emails began through gmail.

    That way more and more people could read (and I thought, presumably pray)

    I find it odd that someone living a lie and writing false emails would want to continue to grow and expand the numbers that get them…but then again…that’s me.

    I got this email in August and signed up…as no doubt did everyone (and then it could grow as it no doubt did).
    ————————————————–
    Dear Friends,

    I am no longer able to send bulk mail through gmail. Most of my emails are being rejected as spam. The only way I am able to provide updates to you is if you join this group. I have some URGENT UPDATE regarding Saeed that I wanted to send you, but have not been able to. If you are interested in receiving updates still, please accept to be part of this group.

    Thank you.

    God Bless.

    Naghmeh

  36. I need to be clear. 9 years ago Saeed was convicted or misdemeanor domestic violence. This seems without dispute.

    That is usually defined (in CA at least) as pushing, striking without leaving injury, or verbal threats of violence

    Good for Naghmeh for calling the cops. Otherwise, that crap only escalates and it needs to be stopped immediately.

  37. I’m sorry, Steve (at #31). I thought I had read somewhere (can’t remember where–I’ve read so much over the last couple of days) that she wrote to a small group of friends, not the much larger group, whom I thought she told later. But probably that other source was also confused–thinking it was a small group of “friends,” since that is how she referred to you all on her e-mail list, even though it was actually hundreds or thousands. So I’m sorry to write anything in error and sorry to make you have to repeat yourself.

    But I feel like the rest of my comment doesn’t “fall apart” (Babylon’s Dread at #32) just because of that one point. You can omit my sentence about it being leaked, and the rest of my points still stand.

    My guess is still that she herself was being pressured to lie in her e-mails, though I have to say the e-mail Steve shared in #35 strikes me very unfavorably. It sounds like a teaser one gets in mass marketing: “URGENT UPDATE . . . I wanted to send.” Also, the great frequency of her e-mails, as Steve has shared, is another troubling point to me.

    Also, Babylon’s Dread, #34, I did note in my previous comment that Saeed did not deny abusing Naghmeh. He just was vague about what was “not true.” He didn’t specify, “I never hit her,” or “I never watched porn.”

    The bottom line for me is that I am sad Saeed is not what he seemed to be, sad for their children, sad for the hard road ahead of them, and sad for the many people who were hugely invested in this family. The whole family needs prayer.

  38. I have to admit I’m really out of the loop on this, and I don’t mean to speak out of turn.

    I would receive Michael’s email reminder each week to pray for Saeed’s release and comfort for his family, and I did. I never clicked on any other articles, or read any comments, & was unaware of all these other details.

    As I tried to catch-up yesterday, I was sorry to read these other details.

    I have a question that I couldn’t glean an answer to from browsing the links everyone has provided, so if it was explained, I apologize for missing it.

    Why wouldn’t Saeed go straight home when he arrived in the US? I assume he was debriefed by government at some point, somewhere, but once allowed to leave, why would one’s first stop be the BGTC in North Carolina?

    My first stop would be straight home to see my wife & kids, especially if my wife wasn’t comfortable with any alternate plans.

    Not judging, just wondering…

  39. “Babylon’s Dread says:
    January 31, 2016 at 8:23 pm
    No one really picked up on it above but Saeed does not deny abusing ”

    Dread-

    I noticed that yesterday & was about to mention it, but someone had just posted that we shouldn’t pick apart what he said & let them alone to heal, so I decided to pipe down about it.

    I also thought I read the charges in ’07 were pleaded down to no jail time, so it made me wonder what the original charges were that were pled down from.

  40. Why wouldn’t Saeed go straight home when he arrived in the US? I assume he was debriefed by government at some point, somewhere, but once allowed to leave, why would one’s first stop be the BGTC in North Carolina?
    —————————————————-
    That is where he was going to meet his wife and kids, the plan – to spend some time there to get used to being home without the added pressures of worrying about paying the bills and getting groceries etc and begin the counseling and reconciliation-She had said she would be there and changed her mind and did not come. His parents and sister were there too, but no Naghmeh or the kids

    Naghmeh spent a lot of time with Graham including time at that property and she reported how much she loved and appreciated the place and the people – especially Graham. When he offered, she accepted

    She has not disclosed her reason for the change of mind..

  41. I believe that I gave a reasonable explanation in number 21 about why she would not want to meet him at the BG centre.

    “Now, as for her not meeting Saeed and his parents at the BGTC, I can understand that. We have to remember the CULTURE they come from. They may be Christians, but they are Iranian and the CULTURE continues to impact them. Women are not much more than a possession. The relationship between wife and mother in law can be very difficult. The Asian women I knew had very difficult relationships with their MIL and were completely under her thumb. MIL is boss over the wife and her son can do no wrong. We all saw the videos of how Saeed’s mama welcomed him.(It was beautiful!)

    ***I’m thinking Naghmeh would have been very outnumbered in a strange place and feel very uncomfortable bringing her children into an environment where everyone else was upset with her. It would have been an extremely vulnerable situation for a woman who has been abused. (re: court documents)”

  42. The Cove is a beautiful place. It would be like a resort vacation, which might be nice when coming out of prison.

  43. But yes, I understand why she didn’t want to meet.

  44. The boyfriend, I mean here close advisor, will come out and explain her side… And perhaps mention the close emotional bond they have developed over these past 3 yrs.

    But hey, I am more cynic than romantic. We’ll see.

  45. I don’t even see why it matters. She wanted out of the relationship, and she is free to make that choice.

  46. “Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man’s character, give him power.” — Lincoln

    We’ll see how he responds to the modicum of power that he will most definitely receive.

  47. Her accusations leaked, but really she simply announced it. No email like that is a leak.
    His record indicates there is truth to it.
    His denial was not a denial of abuse.
    This deal is done

  48. One thing that is irrefutable: The guy was arrested less than ten years ago for domestic violence against Naghmeh. There is a history, it is clear and irrefutable. I fully understand why Naghmeh would not wish to fly to the other side of the country to meet him, given the record of abuse that is beyond contestation; further, if she chose to send such allegations to a Google group, then what of it? It was not a purely private matter as Saeed contends, it was a matter that had already generated a public record and involved the courts and tax dollars of citizens of the State of Idaho. And if it was the truth, then no Christian, be they a pastor of the same denomination or otherwise, should have any problem with it, as the Bible is a veritable 1,300 year exposure of very bad behavior of those who call themselves followers of God. Anyone who subscribes to a religious perspective that advocates concealing much of anything is cutting so against the grain of the Bible and Jesus (who spoke of secret whispers being shouted from rooftops), that I am left to wonder precisely which spirit they are following when they advocate concealment.

    Of course having been in a profession that involves the legal system, in my opinion if the court case was a one off, the only time Saeed abused Naghmeh, it would be one of the few times in the history of domestic abuse that only one isolated incident in a marriage generated a court record and conviction. In the vast majority of cases, this is part of a steady pattern of abuse, typically, for it to hit the courts, it is almost invariably the tip of the proverbial iceberg.

  49. Martin Luther’s Disciple:

    I should think you would rather be Jesus’ disciple, then perhaps that cynicism against those who are abused would no longer be a part of your person.

  50. Hey MLD, some newbie is trying to guilt-trip you again.

  51. Well, you know those guys who name themselves after the Law – live in the Law and know nothing of the Gospel.

    But he is new here, a little wet behind the ears, but what the heck

    Law Prof – welcome to the PP.

  52. Law Prof – I will ask you where you see my ‘cynicism against those who are abused.’

    I am the only one here who has called for abusers of women and children to be run through a wood chipper.

    Where do you stand on my proposal?

  53. Cough cough BULL cough cough

    Calvary Chapel needs to send him and Grenier back to Iran as “missionaries”…and this time Iran needs to take away their internet access and cell phones.

  54. Typical Calvary Chapel.

    The Non-Apology Apology…and they’ll circle the wagons.

    The so-called “good guys” will tuck tale and defend their man and claim “well we just don’t know!” yet find all manner of righteous indignation to rail at those outside their church walls, you know all those evil heathens! All those barbarians at the gates!

    1 Corinthians 5:12

  55. But you don’t really believe the bible, you pick and you choose…it’s like a buffet.

    You’re full of bull and your actions ALWAYS speak louder than your PR and propaganda.

  56. Pastor Al,

    Clean it up.
    The points can be made without it.

  57. I don’t believe that you Calvary Chapel guys are “good”, not at all.

    I don’t believe you are “specially anointed” and I don’t believe you are any different than any other walk of life, oftentimes worse.

    You are sinful, arrogant, greedy, lying, self-absorbed, impotent men….some of you just hide it better than others…but at the end of the day, you collect a paycheck and you stand up on a stage under lights as the center of attention…”for Jesus”….and you don’t really preach a true gospel and you don’t really help anyone other than yourselves and your own families, at least the ones that don’t violate the “No Talk” rule.

    ^^ That’s the cold hard truth….and many know it.

  58. Martin Luther’s Disciple – Surely you jest or are being coy–or both. Or did I misunderstand you (possible)? Please tell me what you meant about “the boyfriend”, I thought you were suggesting she had a boyfriend on the side who would come to light who’s at the bottom of this. Perhaps I misunderstood. if so, all apologies.

  59. Law Prof – I think I brought up “the boyfriend” to explain the change in her story.

    That does not take away the abuse she received and in no way relieves Saeed as a scoundrel.

  60. Saeed is an abuser, just like Grenier.

    He’s lying now to cover his arse and try and hold on to his “ministry” and any support.

    Liars. “God ‘hates’ liars” they are an “abomination” to him, supposedly. But they don’t care, b/c they don’t really believe the bible at all, none do in Calvary Chapel. None do in evangelicalism.

    Every Sect, every Group….Selective Fundamentalists…and they continue to support my Thesis over and over and over again.

  61. The true Belief System of the Evangelical and Calvary Chapel is on full display. It speaks louder than any words coming from pulpits.

    It very much supports the complete refutation of Calvary Chapel’s bullcrap “Transformation Gospel”.

    Every single Calvary Chapel Pastor dies “in sin”….and will die “in sin”. Every single one. None are ‘transformed”. It’s a destructive Mythology that leads folks astray and wastes their time and ties heavy burdens on their backs. It’s such a sham.

  62. That is the TROOF….and the troof will set you free.

  63. Pastor Al is the only one who is good!

  64. OK, MLD, then you were being coy with me. Certainly the allegations against Saeed are grounded in the legal record, whereas the allegations of the shadow boyfriend, though perhaps tongue-in-cheek on your part, are not grounded in anything save outright speculation.

    I am sure that you (being a disciple of one who earned a doctorate, became a professor and wrote one of the finest German translations of the New Testament in history) can easily grasp why a law professor would challenge such bare speculation; I’m convinced you could imagine many plausible explanations for her change in story.

  65. Where are you a Professor of Law, or do we just accept that anyone who uses “Law Prof” as a handle has to be legit?

  66. Law Prof,
    Actually I can’t imagine why you would care enough to challenge my speculations.

    ” I’m convinced you could imagine many plausible explanations for her change in story.”
    I can imagine only 2 – she was lying then or she is lying now … or we aren’t finished and she wil change the story another time. I guess what we might be looking for is why did she lie at least one of those times. She may have had a good reason.

    I own 60 Perry Mason books – I know what I am talking about. 😉

  67. I can imagine that when someone makes raw speculations about an abuse victim having a boyfriend, without a scintilla of supporting evidence, in an attempt to explain their behavior, that they would consider it reasonable to receive a bit of pushback, considering this is as a point of fact libel in the manner in which it was written. I would consider that one might have the spine to own it and say “Well, I was jus talkin”, or, perhaps “Sorry”, words to that effect.

    But, I guess I’m just funny that way when it comes to libeling abuse victims–call me crazy.

  68. I think MLD’s law education of 60 Perry Mason books is better than Law Prof’s supposed education.

  69. Those Perry Mason episodes were probably a lot more interesting.

  70. Law Prof-

    Libel is not libel IF the allegations are true. We do not have that information in order to make a decision as to libel. Do you?

  71. Law Prof, GFY

  72. Than can speculate that she has a BF.

    It doesn’t matter if she does or does not. Saeed abused her and it sounds like the kids as well.

    Naghmeh should have a BF, Saeed’s a doosh.

  73. They above.

    Free Speech cuts all directions.

  74. If you need some help with the acronym, let me know 😉

  75. Law Prof – I think you need to research the origin of my comment. I think I said something to the effect that I would not be surprised if a boyfriend emerged out of this.

    But I thought folks would have been more upset by my comment above at #14
    “You watch, they will slowly reach the level of toothless reality TV stars.”

    *** As I keep saying – I do not discount Saeed’s guilt at all.***

  76. MLD, nah.

    But I bet Saeed will be at the next Calvary Chapel Missionary conference or Pastors Conference. He’s in good now. Calvary Chapel loves them some Domestic Abusers and P0rn addicts.

  77. ….as long as the Abusers kiss the Calvary Chapel ring that is.

    The “sinners” and heathens outside of CC’s walls….different story. Especially the gays.

  78. BTW, all that arguing with you idiots helped sharpen my skills over these years. I got me a regular gig on a nationally syndicated up-and-coming show now as a regular guest. Never have fulfilled my full potential….but I will before I stop sucking air on this rock.

  79. Pastor Al – I just cannot imagine what he has to say that would draw the crowds. He is a guy who broke the law and got caught.

    But you know, George Bush the elder was famous as the youngest pilot shot down in WW@ – so what’ the big deal, I want to hear from the guys his age who had the skills not to be shot down.

    The same here – I want to hear from the Christian missionaries working in Iran, upholding the law who did not get arrested.

  80. Didn’t realize how special I was….until I spent a lot of time in discussions with you dolts LOL

  81. “The same here – I want to hear from the Christian missionaries working in Iran, upholding the law who did not get arrested.”

    Half of them are in bed with the CIA. Iran knows it.

  82. Calvary Chapel has that stink on them. Iran is watching their “missionaries” closely now. The CC guys can thank their pastor-in-good-standing Raul Ries and his crew for that reputation.

  83. “Ends justify the means!” <—The Calvary Chapel way

  84. I guarantee you there are Calvary Chapel “missionaries” in Iran right now who are in bed with the CIA.

  85. I haven’t spoken publicly about 3/4 of what I know from first-person folks inside Calvary Chapel currently or prior.

    People wonder why I’m so cynical? If you knew what I knew and experienced what I’ve experienced, seen what I’ve seen….you’d call a pox on their house as well. They are the biggest BS’ers in the world, second only to TBN and those clowns….they just shine up prettier and have some suckers out front who don’t know the real stuff that goes on….but many of them know what’s gone on, they keep it quiet “No Talk” rule.

  86. MLD-You sound just like Donald Trump speaking of John McCain when you denigrate the service of the elder George Bush. It’s outrageous. As a veteran, I find it highly offensive.

  87. I didn’t denigrate anyone. I just said that Bush becomes more famous for being shot down vs the guys who didn’t.

    So, in context of this discussion, Saeed becomes more famous for breaking the law and getting arrested vs the guys who do it right when visiting a foreign nation.

    The guys who did it right, obeyed the law and completed his mission received no special invitation from Franklin Graham.

    Not proud of it necessarily but I too am a veteran.

  88. MLD can speak for himself, but i think Cash misread him – hope so – George Bush the elder is an admirable man on many levels… although, i do think his son George should have pursued a different kind of public service 🙂

    it is interesting that Pastor Al thinks he delivering new news… his style WILL fit in well on talk radio, tho

  89. Not new news….just repetition. Effective debunking of a false narrative like Calvary Chapels….requires a lot of repetition in the public discourse.

    I’ll be repeating the stuff for the rest of my life. Chip chip chipping’ away.

  90. not proud of being a veteran? honorably discharged? you should be proud – as should a FEW of the not honorably discharged vets IMO

  91. The power of Erosion. Persistence and repetition. 😉

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wOOTF8vu6ps

    I hear more and more and more folks waking up to how terrible a Brand Calvary Chapel really is.

  92. Em, the late 60s early 70s were a tough time to be in uniform — especially when you were there against your will.

  93. 60’s and 70’s were “the” worst era to be in uniform. The Liberal anti-American crowd led by the Jane Fonda’s and John Kerry’s made the US Soldier their prime enemy and target for ridicule. It was disgusting.

    At least the Liberal idiots today learned a lesson about demonizing the troops. Though, now we trade a deserter/traitor for 5 high-level terrorists b/c Obama.

    I swear to gawd that idiot is either intentionally trying to sabotage the USA or he’s the worst deal maker in history. I bet I could get Airforce 1 on pawn for a pack of smokes and 20 bucks.

  94. MLD-

    A sensitive subject for me, no doubt.

    However, “But you know, George Bush the elder was famous as the youngest pilot shot down in WW@ – “‘so what’ the big deal”‘ I want to hear from the guys his age who had the skills not to be shot down.” That is denigrating his service. The “big deal” is that he put his life on the line for the country and almost lost it.
    That’s a big deal. I understand the context but it still is what it is. And I thank you for your service as well, truly.

  95. To Pastor Al’s point – I was one of those ‘liberal idiots’ – an anti war protestor who ran out of deferments and options. As an odd point I was married into a career military family and taking the wife to Canada was never an option.

    I was not in combat, but my brother and his best friend were and to this day 50 yrs later you cannot get either of them to speak of their experiences. I had at least a dozen school buddies killed over there. Even if you could make a case that it was a just war, you would have a hard time saying you were proud to have been a part of it.

    But alas, that is not the topic.

    Cash – I apologize for my insensitive comment.

  96. MLD, it was a bullcrap political war. The Politicians and the population who elected them were the bad guys. Not the troops.

    No one disputes it was a stupid war.

    The soldiers were pawns….and shouldn’t have been ridiculed.

    If the Jane Fonda’s and John Kerry’s and Anti-War hippies wanted to vilify folks…they should have stuck to the politicians and then looked in a mirror.

  97. Democrats were very much a part of that bullcrap war as well. JFK got it going. LBJ did his part. Nixon got the blame. Typical Liberal bullcrap.

  98. Killary Clinton and every single Democrat in a leadership position VOTED FOR the Iraq War resolution….and then Liberals and Democrats spend the rest of their lives blaming George Bush. Nice trick.

  99. Hard to pick who the bigger lying weasels are: Calvary Chapel pastors or Politicians.

    Cut from the same cloth…..

  100. MLD,

    Thank you. You are a good man. And I can be an over sensitive man. We’ll just call it good. 😉

  101. Al, you know, it’s 50 yrs ago. I feel like what I imagine an old Civil War verteran must have looked like at the turn of the 20th century.

    Never understood why some folks are still mad at Jane Fonda – she is a different person, it’s a different time – time to drop it and do some kumbaya. 🙂

  102. “she is a different person”

    She sure is. New boobs, face-lift, botox, lipo, fake eyebrows, fake eyelashes.

    Same b (rhymes with an itch) under that different skin suit.

  103. What kinda show would have riff-raff like you on?

    Are you replacing Crackhead Bob on the Howard Stern Show? 🙂

    Just goofin with you. Glad things are going well for ya.

  104. As I keep saying – I do not discount Saeed’s guilt at all.
    ___________________________________________

    Noted, not saying you do.

  105. Libel is not libel IF the allegations are true. We do not have that information in order to make a decision as to libel. Do you?
    _________________________________________________

    Not at all, I have no knowledge whatsoever of Nahgemeh NOT having a boyfriend. But I think you’ve turned this on its head. You have a fundamental misunderstanding not only of the law of defamation, but of logic itself.

  106. #82-MLD, yes the 60s and 79s were a tough time to be in the U.S. military – against your will or by choice… God says all wars stem from greed… on one or both sides, i guess

  107. Law prof,

    What is illogical in saying that we can’t say it’s libel because it may be true and we don’t have the information to make that determination?

  108. BTW,

    I don’t care one iota if Nagmeh has a boyfriend or not. I am just discussing the law with you, since you are such an esteemed law professor.

  109. Cash –

    The way it doesn’t work is to make raw unsupportable speculations, publicly claim them as truth, then, when sued for libel or slander, say “Well prove it’s NOT true!” Do you get what I’m saying? Even though the burden of proof is on the plaintiff (or the state) in a civil suit (or criminal prosecution) for defamation, only the most dim-witted person would allege whatever, whenever, with no inkling that it might be true, in the hopes that somehow it may be true. Such actions involve malice in the legal sense, which is not a good thing for a defendant in a civil claim for defamation. Every lawyer would love such a client, they’d be a steady stream of hourly revenue as they were repeatedly sued.

    I never suggested I was esteemed. That is a nom de plume and my occupation. Unless it’s yours, or unless you’re an attorney, you’re spitting in the wind if you think you’re likely to win an argument on my home field. Whatever you do, neurosurgeon, accountant, truck driver, Taco Bell assistant manager, I wouldn’t presume to cross swords with you in your area of expertise.

  110. You are the one who doesn’t “get” what I’m saying. You allege someone on the blog libeled Mrs. Abedini by saying she has a boyfriend. Surely you know as a law professor that truth is the ultimate defense to libel or defamation. So the only thing I’m saying is we don’t have enough information to determine if it is a libelous statement or not, because neither of us knows if it’s true or not. Given that fact, you are illogical in proclaiming it libelous when you don’t have the facts. I am certainly NOT arguing that it is a true statement. I’ve no idea. And neither do you. THAT was my point.

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