Jun 302016
 

revival1Can we have revival in our time?

That was the question Greg Laurie asked last night at the Costa Mesa Pastors Conference.

Earlier in the day, Franklin Graham rallied the troops in my states capitol, railing against liberals and giving poorly concealed endorsement to the political right.

 

They prayed for revival too.

Can we have revival in our time?

If it’s going to look like what they described, I sure as hell hope not.

First off, let’s stop the fear mongering about this being “America’s last chance”.

Please.

Just stop it.

We live in a culture that makes us uncomfortable and we’re not used to being uncomfortable, nor are we used to living in a culture where we couldn’t make people that made us uncomfortable more uncomfortable than we are for doing so.

Conservatives are really uncomfortable because the country has liberal cultural tendencies and they have only been guests in the White House for the last eight years.

This doesn’t describe American Armageddon.

There is this unspoken assumption that if God sent revival, not only would the heathen convert to Christ, but they would become good Republicans as well.

Then, of course, God would call off His judgment and righteousness would fill the land.

You betcha…

This country has problems.

It always has and always will.

People are often immoral.

They have always been and always will be.

God has been on the throne through it all.

Always will be.

The other factor in this call for “revival” is a call to moralism, which is nothing more than legalism and law… which is the enemy of grace.

Oddly enough, the last revival Laurie spoke of was spearheaded by Lonnie Frisbee, who was as gay as a spring morning.

This calls into question whether a revival is a return to moralism or an explosion of grace that God gives sovereignly and in the season of His choice alone.

Grace is for sinners…if He comes in revival it will be for those we despise.

I believe there will be no such thing as revival as long as we continue to whore out the Gospel of Jesus Christ, pimping it with politics and covering the shame with the flag.

The Gospel is the Gospel of King Jesus, not any politician,nor any political party.

It is about the kingdom of the King, not any earthly power.

It is His pristine power in salvation, untainted by the agendas of mere men.

If it is mixed with anything else, the Gospel becomes false and full of lies.

It is for right, left, center, and undecided, for natives and immigrants, for male and female and for those who are unsure of either.

Real revival always starts among those the religious have left behind…

I’m all for one of those…

I’m even more for cutting the drama, cleaning our own house, and living out who God has made us to be as we love our neighbors and proclaim the undefiled Gospel of King Jesus.

No “revival” needed for that…

  145 Responses to “Can We Have Revival In Our Time?”

  1. Amen Michael! So tired of hearing, every 4 years, that this is the most important election in our nation’s history. BULL! Keep preaching it Michael!

  2. Oh, and another thought, and I can credit you with this, that maybe the next judgement on ‘Murica…will be against AMERICAN CHRISTIANS!

    No, not persecution, but MAYBE (I said maybe, I am not a prophet) God will judge the church for, as you say, whoring it with politics (looking at YOU DOBSON, FRANKLIN, et al!)

  3. Dan,

    They will come with torches and pitchforks for this one.
    I will be sound asleep having cleansed my conscience by writing this.

  4. Michael,

    Let them come. May their torches and pitchforks winnow them out. Sleep soundly (I won’t be sleeping, I work overnight this week!).

  5. Well, at least I gave one person some enjoyable late night reading!
    Good stuff as always, Dan.

  6. It was good reading Michael! Rest soundly!

  7. I have revival each time I participate in the Lord’s body and the lord’s blood. – just as what it was design to do.

    That’s all I care about – I can’t make others have revival

  8. Wow. I was thoroughly inspired by this post. Your words cut right though the bulls$#t that characterizes much of the way American Christians talk about God’s work in the world. Haven’t read something that resonated with me as much in a long while. I’m glad you have this microphone. The church needs to hear more prophetic voices like yours and less “prophecy”.

  9. Michael,

    Question: Can you make $500k+ a year preaching Christ crucified?

    A revival has many expenses, one only knows.

  10. You speak a hard Word.

    Truth cuts like a double edged sword.

    Having the bulk of my Christian existence down here in Orange County CA I can vouch for your observations.

    Always the political affiliation and the aspersions against anyone who dare be of another mind.

    Revival is and has always been conviction of sin against God and repentance of sin.

    A personal examination of one’s conduct in light of the Word of God prompted by the Holy Spirit.

    Yield to the Holy Spirit.

    Be empty of selfish ambitions and agendas.

    Give up, die to self.

    John the baptist counted himself unworthy to even tie Jesus sandal.

    And yet he was the most dramatic, political and religious leader of the time.

    The whole area was literally in an uproar over him.

    Even the religious leaders, the scribes, the Pharisees, the Sadducee came out to the desert places for his baptism.

    Why?

    Because he was so powerful, and so many people were going to him.

    This is how influential this man was.

    He ate what God said, he wore what God said, he lived the way the Lord said, simple and isolated.

    How many in ministry today are always looking for ways to increase ‘their ministry?’

    John talks about the Son of the Living God.

    He says, “He must increase, I must decrease, He is preferred before me.”

    He could honestly say that, because it was true.

    And because it was true, he was willing to sacrifice literally everything.

    He wasn’t selfish.

    You don’t live like that because of the applause you get from the people, because he lived in a desert wasteland.

    You don’t have anything but Jesus.

    You wouldn’t do it for anything else.

    Some people do things for money, but their not in the wilderness.

    They’re not out there alone with the Lord.

    With people, but alone still, with the Lord.

    They are not really wanting Him to be preferred before themselves.

    Some accepted their calling, not realizing what it would completely take, what the price really was.

    John knew.

    John confessed, it says…”And he confessed, and denied not; but confessed, I am not the Christ.

    And they asked him, What then?

    Art thou Elijah?

    And he saith, I am not.”

    Yet Jesus said that John had the spirit of Elijah.

    John said, “I’m not Elijah.

    I’m nobody special, I’m nobody big, I’m nobody cool, I’m just nobody at all.”

    Ahh but he was a yielded and pliable vessel, always ready for the Master’s usage.

    That lump of clay that knew that only the Master can play the potter.

    The flesh can never deliver us from the flesh or make anything at all of this lump of clay.

    “Are you a prophet then?”

    “Then said they unto him, Who art thou?”

    Why?

    Because he was so anointed of the Holy Spirit!

    His bow was fully pulled back!

    “No, I’m not Christ.

    No, I’m not Elijah.

    No, I’m not the prophet.

    Well then what saith thou of thyself?”

    God help you if you say anything.

    You’re crucified with Christ.

    Why are we not anointed?

    It is us.

    He is the same, the problem is you and I.

    We are so selfish, there is so much of ourselves.

    We are building our ‘ministry.’

    John’s example tells us to count the cost.

    What does God want you to do with your life?

    What is your purpose here?

    John knew that he wasn’t even worthy to even touch His sandal, for this was God.

    This was Almighty God!

    And yet we are a temple of the Living God.

    Jesus Christ by His Holy Spirit dwells in me, in you, and in every born again believer.

    This is an incredible truth of major proportions!

    John knew every moment of the day, no matter how many thousands came to him, that his way, his purpose was a voice.

    He never forgot that.

    A voice in the wilderness pointing the way to the Lamb of God.

    Just a messenger boy of no great importance, a mere lump of clay.

    Johns bow was fully pulled back for the arrow of his words.

    Is yours?

    Is mine?

    “And looking upon Jesus as he walked, he saith, Behold the Lamb of God!

    And the two disciples heard him speak, and they followed Jesus.”

    They ‘heard him speak.”

    He was anointed to speak.

    The arrows of his words flew to their mark because the tension of his bow was there.

    And that can only happen for us by the power of the Holy Spirit!

    Holy Spirit ignite us!

    We who know who is the One who deserves all our praise.

    How we adore You and worship You.

    Help us to understand and to know that it is right and it is good to be nobody at all, merely a voice crying in the wilderness.

    Obscure and hidden away, until someone receives the message that passes through our yielded vessels and goes and tells others that they have heard an anointed servant of the Most High God, “come see and hear this one who speaks for God in the wilderness.”

    God Bless You Michael!

    A voice in the wilderness…

  11. Where are all the people with their pitchforks you predicted would show up?

    You’re getting about as accurate as the prophecy wonks these days 😉

    The only people I see responding to this stuff on your blog lately are folks from the amen corner.

    Have you developed a martyr’s complex?

  12. An Oxymoron

    noun: oxymoron; plural noun: oxymorons

    a figure of speech in which apparently contradictory terms appear in conjunction (e.g., faith unfaithful kept him falsely true ).

    You arrived Scott…did you not?

  13. I think I have said this before – I do not believe in revivals.
    Calls for revival at their root are calls for the Holy Spirit to get off his butt, get back to work and do his job.

    We think the Holy Spirit did his job at Pentecost and now sits on his hands until we force revival on him

    Or, is it that we believe that we bring revival? ‘Revival’ is an odd concept.

  14. God’s Kingdom quietly goes about it’s business throughout the world. Always has. Always will. Thank you Jesus.

    Thanks for the good article Michael.

  15. Surfer…he arrived indeed. 🙂

    Thanks all…just one I had to get off my chest and onto the blog….

  16. MLD,

    It really is an odd concept.
    So is the mythology around them.

    I’m not denying that such things happen,though…

  17. MLD #14,

    What would you call this:

    “Jonah began to go into the city, going a day’s journey. And he called out, ‘Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown!’ And the people of Nineveh believed God. They called for a fast and put on sackcloth, from the greatest of them to the least of them.

    The word reached the king of Nineveh, and he arose from his throne, removed his robe, covered himself with sackcloth, and sat in ashes….Let everyone turn from his evil way and from the violence that is in his hands. Who knows? God may turn and relent and turn from his fierce anger, so that we may not perish.

    When God saw what they did, how they turned from their evil way, God relented of the disaster that he had said he would do to them, and he did not do it.”

    Is God not moved by the sincere repentance of his people?

    It seems to me that one-by-one as the dominoes fall by turning what used to be called an abomination into what is now called freedom and liberty, our society is receiving judgment and we, as a nation, are “receiving in [our]selves the due penalty for [our] error.”

    Yes, it’s true that judgment will come to each of us individually, and if you’re a Christian you’ve already been justified, but we live in community where everyone is affected by the multiplication of evil in our midst.

    Therefore, however you may want to define “revival”, there seems to be biblical precedent for the priesthood of believers to repent before God for the sins of our people and ourselves, and to petition God for mercy and renewal.

  18. Jean that was unbelievers becoming believers – and yes there is a party in heaven.

    Now to the H S isn’t his power always on the believer? As I said above my HS revival rocket fuel is in the body and the blood.

    I find that people who call for revival, actually call for revival for the other guy – noting that they themselves are fine.

  19. MLD,

    “I find that people who call for revival, actually call for revival for the other guy – noting that they themselves are fine.”

    You are correct here, and it is true for more than just calling for revival. But, we know that the root of their error lies in the fact that such people don’t think they any longer have a sin problem.

    But, I must take a nuanced exception to your statement: “Now to the H S isn’t his power always on the believer?” Whether His power is always on the believer in the same way and magnitude is a question that would require more study than I’m prepared to answer right now. But the other side of the equation is, are we at all times receptive to and walking by the Spirit?

    After Pentecost, after Peter and John were released from jail by the Sanhedrin, Acts records that they went back to their friends and prayed:

    “…. ‘And now, Lord, look upon their threats and grant to your servants to continue to speak your word with all boldness, while you stretch out your hand to heal, and signs and wonders are performed through the name of your holy servant Jesus.’ And when they had prayed, the place in which they were gathered together was shaken, and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and continued to speak the word of God with boldness.'”

    It seems rather obvious that Peter and John, even though there is no doubt that they had the Holy Spirit, thought it worth while to petition God for increased Spirit, power and presence in their ministry. What say you?

  20. “Oddly enough, the last revival Laurie spoke of was spearheaded by Lonnie Frisbee, who was as gay as a spring morning.”

    I am really trying to get my heart around what you are trying to say without over reacting. I do not see Lonnie’s sexuality as his identity. I think we are co-opted by categories that do not serve us when we say such things. I do not think Lonnie self-identified as gay or lived in homosexuality. I do think he incessantly backslid into homosexual sin. Anyway it is ironic how much impact Lonnie’s life had in the genesis of Calvary Chapel. And it is disingenuous how little they acknowledge it.

    Going on

    The association of revival with Republicanism is of course a NEW phenomenon. However, the association of revival with social reform, moralism and politics is not.

    Sociologist have been helpful to me to reckon on revivals and I believe sociology sees four seasons of awakening in America. I use them because within the faith we do not recognize large trends we are too bound by our own cult and kin to acknowledge awakening outside our theological preference until at least 100 years have passed.

    Anyway I get the frustration with the CC rant about revival. At least they are finally admitting that the revival that fomented them is over. I too believe it is largely over but I fully expect another wave soon.

    Of course this subject is obsessively important to me.

    I digress.

    Let me affirm Michael’s overall frustration that penned this. I am so thankful that I do not have CC in my spiritual DNA but I do consider own clan to be the spiritual grandchildren of Chuck Smith. We received the bits of his revival that he rejected and its permutations.

  21. “I am really trying to get my heart around what you are trying to say without over reacting. I do not see Lonnie’s sexuality as his identity. I think we are co-opted by categories that do not serve us when we say such things.”

    Frisbee is the rock that moralistic revivalists must break on.

    Whether he “identified” with his sexuality or not, he “incessantly slid into homosexuality”.
    As Laurie also pointed out (for the first time I’ve heard admitted) he was an utter train wreck theologically.

    My point is simply this.

    Frisbee was utterly unequipped in the flesh to lead a revival.
    He shattered all the categories we define as necessary for God to use someone.

    There is no mold for a Lonnie Frisbee…nor will there be for the strange ones that bring the next move of God.

  22. OK I have to admit that I inherently contradicted myself, we grandchildren do have Papa Chuck’s spiritual DNA. Yikes.

  23. Thank you Michael that was a great response

  24. Jean, perhaps you need to hang around the Baptists more often. I was with then 13 yrs of which we would have “revival week” annually. We had the Holy Spirit on our calendar to do his work – usually in July.

    When I was with a small baptist church we would have celebrity revival. If you remember Crystal Bernard from Wings – she would come out every year with her evangelist father and help for the week with the children’s revival.

    Actually it was pretty fun. 🙂

  25. as long as American christians identify ‘revival’ as electing conservative leadership, both the political side and religious side will continue in impotence. there is no figurative little blue pill for that condition.

  26. Good observations Michael!

  27. The Baptist church across the street from us has a revival every summer. This year it featured an evangelist named Pastor Eliot “Poison” Ivey. We could hear him screaming all over the neighborhood.

  28. I am largely a product of conservative / ultra conservative Christian education. Now in mid-life, I have spent the last 18 years re-examining everything. Starting in 1998 when I abandoned considering myself a conservative Republican and became apolitical.

    This has largely led to a rejection of the revival myth. As a boy, my education presented would be heroes for me to beatify. But this always included a lack of details, just a list of names and events. This was before the phrase “world view” emerged, but that is what was presented.

    I recently re-read both info on revival history and separately Lonnie Frisbee. There is just a lot to Lonnie. I don’t feel its one thing or another, but many things at one time. I feel a bit sorry for Lonnie, and don’t know why I should consider him a believer at all. But an enormous number of people did believe in Jesus Christ.

  29. Not sure that revival is possible in many circles. All that loss of power…money…influence…status…I doubt many of them would give it up. Not even for revival. They’d rather run the revival, make money off it, use it to broadcast across their TV networks, and look really cool.

    On the other hand, I meet so many Christians who are in a personal state of revival and really letting God have His way in his life. I’m always blessed to find these folks.

  30. I write confusing comments, so I should clarify a few things.
    -There is a sense on my part that Lonnie was used by many individuals.
    -His theology appeared to be non-existent leaving him vulnerable.
    -At the same time whether he was a believer or not, I see no reason to expect a non-believer could not be used by God to lead to a large group coming to faith.
    -Drug use is witchcraft and this is a piece of the puzzle I have no idea of where to put.
    -I don’t think a person’s sexuality is their defining characteristic.
    -The appearance of the angel, light or extraterrestrial in the canyon was wild and is banned by scripture.
    -God does dispatch demons to perform his work, as with Ahab.
    -If that happened in the Canyon, God would still be in control and behind it.

    Bottom line for me is the the Jesus People Movement was already underway before Lonnie. CC Movement rest on Lonnie since it did not start till 1967.

    Michael is right. This is the rock on which the moral-ism revival myths break.

  31. “-The appearance of the angel, light or extraterrestrial in the canyon was wild and is banned by scripture.”

    What?

  32. Yes, if we would just repent of all those liberal Democrat sins, then God may bring revival. Or something like that.

  33. “Getting America back to God” is, I think, rooted in our tendency to overstate things and make them the uniform narrative on bits of history. There is ample evidence for the idea that America is and was a Christian nation. There is also ample evidence contrariwise. Reality is that many narratives were at work in our found; economic and religious narratives just happen to be at the forefront.

    The Great Awakening predated our national founding and feeds into the ‘back to God’ myth. The Plymouth community feeds into that as well. Plymouth was a separatist community going back to our nations founding but Plymouth was predated by Jamestown which was a purely economic beachhead in the beginning. So these dual narratives sought to dominate our identity.

    The founding fathers were both this and that. They were theists, deists, secularists, pragmatists, humanists and much else. We all want our narrative to control the national story. It won’t carry through.

  34. nathan priddis,

    Best you not speculate about Lonnie and his faith. I know and have talked to many many people who knew Lonnie personally. Not one of them wondered about his genuine conversion to Jesus and love for the Lord that persisted his whole life.

    Unless you are espousing sinless perfection as the standard for holiness then you might want to brake before that conclusion.

    Having been a pastor 40 years I can assure you that none of us pass the test of conquering all sin. And yet God still counts us holy and accepts us in the beloved.

  35. It seems odd – first we get rid of our sin, we straighten up, fly right and then… and then Jesus brings revival?

    It seems to me, and once again I could be wrong, that Jesus would bring revival and through that we would cast off all our wicked ways.

    Those of us who have the sacraments have no need for the workings of the evangelist Poison Ivey. 😉

  36. Speaking of Lonnie Frisbee and his lack of acknowledgment within CC – I heard a sermon not too long ago where Lonnie was spoken about. But his name was not given. He was only spoken of as a whack-a-do, homosexual, self-proclaimed prophet who was trying to sweep through Calvary Chapels. The Scripture text that the sermon was derived from spoke of those departing the faith.

  37. BD’s #35 could have been signed Gospelling Dread!

  38. Here is what I know about Lonnie…

    — Chuck Smith in his earliest writings acknowledged the indispensable role played by Lonnie in gathering the harvest in the earliest days
    — Chuck Girard said “without Lonnie there was no Calvary Chapel” Chuck’s life in Christ was directly related to Lonnie
    — Greg Laurie had a life changing encounter with Jesus because of Lonnie. I can show reports that variously define it
    — Mike Macintosh likewise had his life changed by Lonnie’s impact. Mike is least willing to admit the Lonnie part but every time he tells his testimony of healing from his own mental illness you should know that Lonnie was in the mix on his healing
    — Tom Stipe personally attests to the amazing power of Lonnie’s public witness to Jesus and the power of the Holy Spirit upon his life
    — John Wimber would not have moved from a church to a movement without the Lonnie Frisbee Mother’s Day 1980 explosion that first decimated and then multiplied his church
    — This list can go on and on into countless names that you will not know. I find this man to be singularly one of the most intriguing figures of the last century. As Chuck eulogized him he was a “modern day Samson.” Of course that is both commending and otherwise.

    Unfortunately he will be utilized by many interest groups. I hope someone will write a definitive history of his life that is neither hagiography nor damnation.

    Someone should definitely write it

  39. BD,

    Well done.

  40. @39
    “…This list can go on and on into countless names that you will not know. I find this man to be singularly one of the most intriguing figures of the last century…”

    You and I are not the only ones who find these events fascinating. ….”which things the angels desire to look into”.

    I do not know what to make of Lonnie. Did you of the encounter in the canyon?

  41. Nathan,
    “Did you of the encounter in the canyon?”

    Which canyon? If it was here in SoCal it would have been Laguna Canyon and back in the day, the early Jesus People / CC newbies were still encountering drugs in good size quantities. That still gets talked about here.

  42. Nathan,

    I took the encounter in the canyon as an act of God that had an amazing 1 for 1 verification. What troubled you about that event?

    All one need do is look at video of the Corona Del Mar Bay baptisms to see the vindication of the vision.

    I am not sure what bothers you about it I have read various accounts of the moment all seemingly from Lonnie himself.

  43. I never heard the name Lonnie Frisbee before this thread. From this short video, he clearly understood the Gospel.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pLYAni77260

  44. We would love to go to Tahquitz Canyon up near Palm Springs, get nude, and seek God. One time about a hundred of us –– guys and gals –– were arrested for being nude and smoking dope. They hauled us away stark naked in vehicles. It was crazy, but definitely exciting…

    One day I was up in the canyon again by myself. It was a real hike back into the local Palm Springs mountains. There is a beautiful stream, and waterfalls along the way, and it is such a cool place. I finally arrived at one of my favorite spots. I took off all my clothes, and literally screamed up to heaven –– “Jesus, if you are really real –– reveal yourself to me!!!” Suddenly the whole atmosphere began to change around me. It began to tingle, and shimmer, and glow. I thought –– “Ahaaaaa Ahaaaw!!! I don’t even want to be here!” I was scared, and shocked, and positive it was not an LSD flashback. I didn’t hear an audible voice, but knew that I was in the presence of God Almighty. Then I saw a radiant vision clear as crystal. I saw thousands and thousands of young people

    Then I saw a radiant vision clear as crystal. I saw thousands and thousands of young people at the ocean, lined up in huge crowds along the coast –– and they were going out into the water being baptized. I could see it! I knew instantly that Jesus was real –– and that He was calling me to follow him. As the Lord lifted up my eyes I saw a harvest field of people. They were like a huge wheat field. I saw in the vision thousands and thousands of people in the valley of decision. The power of the Holy Spirit surrounded me from within and from without. Then I saw a light from heaven come down, and ordain me –– and I could hear Him say, “Go in my name for I have touched your lips with a coal of fire that burns ever before the presence of God. Proclaim to the people that I am coming soon.” It was the most radical moment of my life. At eighteen years old God was calling me to serve Him. It blew my mind –– but I was definitely saying –– “Yes Lord!”

    I came off that mountain a different person. I still didn’t have all the answers –– but I knew for sure that Jesus was real. He had responded to my desperate cry. I had an instant revelation of my calling. What a privilege, what a high calling to be used by a loving God –– who loved us so much that He died on a cross to save us from destruction –– to save us from ourselves. All the scriptures from my childhood started to kick in, and take on new meaning with revelation and life. I realized that the written Word of God was true, and supernatural. God was invading my life, and it was so powerful, and absolutely wonderful! I didn’t need drugs anymore!

    Frisbee, Lonnie; Sachs, with Roger (2012-06-26). Not by Might, Nor by Power: The Jesus Revolution (pp. 53-54). Freedom Publications. Kindle Edition.

  45. Jean,

    That’s a good one

  46. trying to absorb and understand the comments this morning and i’m getting dizzy … 🙂

    when we were identified with the Baptists and it was revival time again, i never saw it in terms of a “great move of the Holy Spirit” – rather it was just a time to focus and encourage in the Faith…
    it seemed a necessary because, frankly, probably half the congregations were “nod-to-God-ers” – making their Sunday courtesy calls and putting something of their hard earned dollars in the plate as it went by…
    our churches (including the traditionals) are a mixed bag of folk who are there for many different reasons – for the most part only God knows where their hearts truly are… the LSD aren’t the only ones who have a large contingency who join for expediency

    i think – dunno – that a revival in the secular world happens when the population gets really scared, a plague or a war at the door… i used to say that the mid-west had such a high percentage of church-goers because of their weather … LOL

    i see most of the homosexual community as victims of our corrupted society – there but for the grace of God? we like to think that we’d never be like that and most of us do thank God that we’re not… but who’s to say what trauma beyond genetics gave them that twisted response to a natural part of being a human?

  47. That’s what some forms of revival look like… it is easy for people to get saved in such times.

  48. Jean, I have no problem with the early Lonnie Frisbee at all – I think like many pastors he was called onto the scene for a time. After a while I think he believed his own press clippings and started bouncing around – he burned his bridges with CC, Mumford and the shepherding movement and then with the Vineyard guys.

    He was a bitter mixed bag at the end

  49. In my memory of the early 70s, I remember a relatively morally apathetic culture. Drugs, alcohol, sexuality, including homosexuality, were not issues that people got too hung up about. Recall that it was in this period that Elton John, Queen, and The Village People were coming up. Disco was big. My point being that people were not dwelling on sin and hell.

    But Frisbee was giving a strong Law-Gospel message (in the video at #44) in the early 70s.

    Today, the church is very concerned about morality, but instead of strong Law-Gospel, sin and hell are not popular preaching topics, because people today apparently aren’t worried about sin. On the other hand, some churches preach conservative political messages, perhaps because they want the government to manage morality for the church?

    There’s a disconnect somewhere.

  50. #22. I did not realize that Michael actually believes that moves of God still take place. I guess I was under the assumption that most on this blog do not believe in “moves of God” or at least not in ones that are outside of their current camp (ie. Lutherans: Luther only move, nothing since; Calvinists: Luther and Calvin, nothing since; etc.) I do believe that God’s Holy Spirit is not dead, and while it is probably hampered by a lot of unbelief, jealousy and pride on the part of believers it is still the most powerful Spirit that has, or ever will, exist. It is still God, even when we resist it for the most religiously base of reasons.
    I do believe in moves of God. I was reborn in the Charismatic movement 45 years ago, it has left its mark in a very positive way in my life, even though 80 percent of what went on was B.S. I picked through the bones the best I could and God worked good in my life. Then I spent 5 years in a Pentecostal church. Same thing there, I picked through the bones and God taught me things I needed to learn. I spent a couple of years in the Vineyard. The Sunday night experience there was the emperor with no clothes on. 80 percent was a fake affectation, but still God used what was real in a positive way in my life. I spent 10 years in a CC church. Lots of B.S. and the hardest time of my life spiritually speaking, but still God used it for some good in my life. Finally I am now in an emerging church, very small with an SBC ordained pastor. It is not perfect, nor is it “perfectly balanced” but the pastor refuses to make stuff up and so there is less of the B.S. then anywhere else I have been. That suits me for now.
    My personal testimony is that God has used things from various multiple moves in my lifetime to work good in my life. I look forward to future moves based on my experience of the past, even though I believe bad leaders are what killed all of them off in the past. Leaders who found a way to expand their fame and their wallets by co-opting a current move for their own evil purposes and selfish ambition are what I currently believe ended each of the real ones. Ironically, these very type of leaders are the ones calling for a new move of God, in Michael’s post here. I suspect that they want something new that they can take advantage of by selling millions of books they will write about them, or making $100 grand a pop for hosting each conference in their church about the “new revival.” The kind of revival we need is not what they are praying for, but rather a kind that they cannot get their hands around to make a fast buck and increase their fame with. It turns out that God recently showed me just such an underground move coming. I do not know when it will come, but I know it will be underground and will not stay in one place long. In this way it will be hard for our celeb culture to make a fast buck off of the move that belongs to God’s Spirit and not them. I am especially looking forward to it because I have seen that it will make a big positive spiritual change in my life. I am a mess and greatly appreciate God’s work reforming me into the image of His Son. I will have to be patient and I may be the last one touched by it, but things that God does are certainly worth waiting for.

  51. “He was a bitter mixed bag at the end”

    I do not know if he was bitter. My sources who knew him unto the end dispute that. Wounded? Yes. Feeling rejected? Yes. Bitter? I cannot say.

    Certainly he spun out of all those groups by his own actions. He was no victim. He made choices and those choices cost him.

    I do know that his love for Jesus and sense of God’s love in his life remained in tact

  52. @51 Thanks

    I would just add that the characterization you give of charismatic christianity I could give of evangelical non charismatic Christianity. We are always picking through the bones of the mess to see the real

    The real always exists in the bone pile

  53. I don’t know why people refuse to speak out about the churches that preach strong liberal messages.

    I am sure that this fall Hillary will campaign in just as many if not more liberal churches as Trump conservative.

  54. “I don’t know why people refuse to speak out about the churches that preach strong liberal messages.”

    MLD,

    If there is anything that unites this blog it is affirmation of the Scripture as the Word of God and its authority to norm Christian doctrine. Do you see anyone here giving churches a pass who don’t teach Scripture this way?

  55. MLD,

    The liberal churches are dying so fast and their influence so small they are barely worth noting.

  56. Mr J – I watch God move at each Baptism I attend as I watch God snatch away from the devil one who was destine for hell. I watch as God names and claims that new born person.

    I watch God move every Sunday in the sacrament of the Lord’s Table as he delivers the grace he won on the cross to a congregation of people who do not deserve it.

    I watch God move every time the word is preached, as the word it self, just by being preached by an unholy man called pastor changes souls from darkness to light.

    I know it is boring and ordinary, but when you have that happening in your church I guess you don’t need to go elsewhere to look for the flashy.

    But I trust God to work where he has promised to work – in his word – in his baptism – in his body and blood and in his absolution. Every week, delivered to me.

  57. I finally agree with MLD

    Growing up Lutheran …

    Problem is nothing in the Bible was similarly boring…

    I dunno God got tired of his own creativity I guess

    Bored to Death Dread

  58. Episcopal – ELCA – PCUSA – UMC – almost all black churches

    You don’t read about the influence of these churches in the Christian Post or Christianity Today — no, you read about then in the NY Times and Washington Post and they have tremendous influence.

  59. Here, the PCUSA and UMC are white and empty . I hear the same things about them in the rest of the West and Southwest.

  60. I’ve had people in the know tell that the UMC is almost bankrupt…

  61. Michael,

    Let the cost cutting begin with their apostate Bishops.

  62. Jean – I think it is wrong for any church to preach politics – conservative or liberal.

    But you said – “On the other hand, some churches preach conservative political messages, perhaps because they want the government to manage morality for the church?”

    I could say the same thing about the liberal church – they want the government to manage the morality for the church – feeding the hungry, minimum wage etc , etc – these are all moral issues as much as anything you think the conservatives preach.

    We need to just say no to politicians coming into our churches.

  63. Here, the PCUSA and UMC are white and empty . I hear the same things about them in the rest of the West and Southwest.

    Michael – you are in redneck central – what do you expect. 🙂

  64. MLD,

    A preacher should preach the lectionary text for the day, faithfully, and let the chips fall where they may. Let the Law do its work, and proclaim the Gospel. There is morality in the Law, and sometimes it will cut right and other times it will cut left (as perceived by the listener). Jesus was neither Democrat or Republican.

  65. Jean, I agree. My issue is that on this blog all the anger goes toward the conservative churches supporting Trump. Now I agree that he is an idiot and deserves no support from anyone — but at the same time, the liberal churches give just as much suport to Hillary and I have not heard a single person here rant on about it.

    I am just trying to keep the playing field level. 😉

  66. “the liberal churches give just as much suport to Hillary and I have not heard a single person here rant on about it.”

    I don’t remember Hillary meeting with dozens of liberal church leaders asking for their support, followed by a press conference given by the liberal church leaders, talking about Hillary’s Christianity. Do you?

  67. BREAKING NEWS….

    “Kevin Sorbo Says Jesus Would Vote for Donald Trump”

    Read more at http://www.christianpost.com/#ZSJKZkEKQ3CWOGF7.99

    You.

    Can’t.

    Make.

    This.

    S&%$t.

    Up.

  68. Jean – perhaps not now, but in the 90s her and Bill lived in those liberal black churches.

    Come on, you just like Hillary because she is a Methodist. 🙂

  69. MLD,

    I don’t know how our country ended up with the 2 candidates will determine the next President. You’ve been open about your support for Hillary, so I won’t pick on her in particular. But, I think there’s a very good chance that 4 years from now many of us will look back saying, President Obama wasn’t so bad after all.

  70. My support of Hillary is by default – and I don’t really support her as I give no money nor do I have a lawn sign – but in light of a Trump candidacy I support the cause of electing a woman President.

    Let’s get that out of the way and then next election we can work on electing a one legged midget.

    Obama hasn’t been so bad – I have bought a new car and put on about 25 lbs since he has been president – so I must be making money and eating well.

  71. @ #51,

    Mr J, your bone analogy really resonates with me, I find it quite helpful.

  72. I have been thinking about this for a while, thought I might throw in my one cent, I don’t have two. I wonder if maybe grace should be shown to to the right as well as to the left, to the republicans and the evangelicals as well as the democrats and the the mainliners? It seems to me that the operative emotion of our day is rage, rage to the left of me, rage to the right, here I am stuck in the middle with you! Well, actually have my own rage. The problem is, to quote another song, this one from Blind Faith, 1969, everyone is trying to find their way home and we can’t find the way. There is do doubt that our society has changed. I see things every day that shock me and I did not think I could be shocked. So, one side runs in a rage to acquire new found freedoms. The other side runs in a rage trying to preserve what was.

    I hate revivalism for a number of reasons. Revivalism is actually a lack of faith, a failure to believe that the Holy Spirit will convict the world of sin and call God’s people to Himself. I believe it is why southern baptists are facing such failure at the moment. You can see one reason I hate it in this story by Langston Hughes, http://www.spiritwatch.org/firelangsave.htm The believer’s church is full of unbelievers!

    But revival is a different story, and it is different from an awakening. Revival happens when the church gathers for worship and fellowship. When we praise God and sing his songs, when we preach and teach the Word of God to each other, when we treat each other with that wonderful kingdom ethic and love one another, then revival comes. It happens weekly as we shake of the dust and trials of the world and are refreshed because we enter that outpost behind enemy lines and practice our citizenship of heaven. That is what worship is, practicing the things of heaven. Some of us, who are so broken, take a long time before our parched souls arerestored. And if we neglect that great assembly of awkward sinners that God has collected as his people, then we will never find the refreshment that we need. We will take the long way home.

  73. Randy…you need to comment more often.
    Good stuff…

  74. Well said, Randy….

    ” Revival happens when the church gathers for worship and fellowship”

    ….and it starts with the hearts of the individuals. ( I’m not the only one to mention this, several others already have here.)

    Oh, and another good song reference with your last sentence…

  75. History tells us that revival/revivalism (because they come together) is socially and practically efficacious. Christian awakenings actually come with cultural consequences. Perhaps they are not permanent but they are notable.

  76. do we look for the “flashy” as MLD said above?
    i don’t think we do – i think that we are surprised by it, if it is from God – hard to describe something “flashier” than what BD related of his initial One on one with God – if it is from God, it will impact the life – or lives – experiencing it… and, after the dust has settled, after life becomes routine again, the impact will remain; it may be buried away from a conscious level, but no one has such an encounter with God and walks away discounting it as an illusion … well, if they do they’re headed in a direction i don’t wanna go

  77. Where is that history?

    Not necessarily doubting you, but the effect of the Jesus Movement was small on us until they all moved here…

    All I remember is the ribald mockery we made of the “I Found It” campaign.
    I like the word “ribald”…

  78. #53 I agree with you completely. There are bones to pick out wherever you find yourself because human beings are involved. I just had to speak of my background which has been more on the Charismatic side. I would also add that while Charismatics are famous for hyping up things that have no actual substance when examined closely, I have seen a lot of hype around Baptist annual “revival meetings.” But the revival fails to materialize afterwards so it is equally hyped up. Also, I will pick on Calvinists here, my best friend once tried to get me hyped up to attend the annual Ligoniers convention. Lots of noise there to get my friend so excited about it. To my knowledge that convention is not exactly turning the world upside in a good way either. There is empty hype all over the place.

  79. Personally I think most ‘revivals’ are the work of Satan to make us feel like we really pulled it off. I can’t look it up now but what was that horsecrap book about the town where the revival preacher came in and got the town to agree to live biblically for 1 yr? It was an old book from the turn of the last century.

  80. The is an old quote about what a town would look like if Satan had control.Everything would be prim and proper and the churches would be full.
    Again, we cry out for revival…for the other guy.

  81. Seeing as how Lonnie Frisbee and Calvary Chapel were mentioned I figure I would share my angle point on it all.

    At 17 years old I was introduced to Jesus Christ through an encounter with Lonnie Frisbee, Chuck Girard, and Fred Fields by what I consider divine intervention out on the street.

    I was present when Greg Laurie had the same kind of an experience with Lonnie Frisbee.

    I became a close friend of Lonnie and he personally took me to the place where he first encountered God out in the desert.

    What most people do not know is that Lonnie also had started a “Jesus People” movement across Africa.

    Lonnie himself never knew this.

    An African pastor contacted Stan Frisbee and told him how 10 young men had gotten born again in one of Lonnie’s African meetings.

    Each man went out from that meeting and started ten African churches each.

    Out of those churches came others who went out and started churches sweeping across Africa in a move of God.

    Anyway here is my take on Calvary Chapel which I attended in the days of my youth…

    http://shekinahfellowship.blogspot.com/2016/06/how-calvary-chapel-of-costa-mesa.html

    There was another young man (Brant Baker of Shekinah Fellowship) I was introduced to by Lonnie in a men’s clothing store in Costa Mesa in 1969.

    He was used by God, as was Lonnie, even though he struggled with his sexual identity like Lonnie.

    http://shekinahfellowship.blogspot.com/2016/06/worship-him-he-loves-you-jesus.html

    The Master Potter used flawed vessels, not vessels of gold or silver to impact my life.

    I can’t fathom how or why God used these men to impact me for Christ.

    But Almighty God’s sovereign design was to use these available vessels inspite of who they had been or were.

    There is no getting around that for me or Greg Laurie who had much the same experiences with these two vessels as I have.

    http://shekinahfellowship.blogspot.com/2016/04/so-what-did-greg-laurie-have-to-do-with.html

  82. surfer51,

    I appreciate your testimony.

  83. The Great Awakenings were real and had a noticeable impact in the USA and other countries. Church membership shot up, major societal reforms happened, and personal devotion to the Lord rose. “Redemption and Lift” is a known sociological term that came up during my secular university studies of religion, which notes how society is altered when enough of a population changes “bad” behavior due to religious experience.

    I would not put the Jesus Movement on the same level as the Awakenings. The Awakenings spawned Abolitionism, Sunday School movement, Holiness movement, Pentecostalism, Temperance movement, Women’s Rights movement, child labor law reforms, and many of the Protestant denominations and organizations that we know today. What is lasting from the Jesus Movement after just a few decades? I can’t think of much beyond “rock” worship music style, casual attire, short-term missions, mega churches, and ???

    Well, enough of my ramblings. 🙂

  84. EricL,

    Great points.

  85. Acts 10 says that Peter said to Cornelius and his household:
    “Truly I understand that God shows no partiality, but in every nation anyone who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him.’

    I’m glad whatever revival is coming will be different and won’t have any onerous do-gooding. That’ll be refreshing. We shake off the God fearing part and even I could fall in love with Hillary.

    Good times. I’m straight up giddy.

  86. Please know that @84, I don’t mean to demean the personal experiences of many wonderful people who were changed during the Jesus Movement (or the Charismatic Movement that overlapped it), I just wouldn’t place either at the same level at the 3 Great Awakenings when it comes to lasting societal impact.

  87. Rob, the Acts 10 quote is true. Do you know anyone who qualifies?

  88. Rob,
    Where did anyone on this thread or myself say anything similar to what you wrote?

  89. @88 – Cornelius, apparently. Personally, I can think of one old lady teaching sunday school via flannel graph to one kid in 1976.
    I aim for it every morning and I’m probably scoffed at because my brand of fearing and following God doesn’t contain the appropriate cultural & systematic theological shibboleths. Cornelius did all right being excluded from the truly religious. Maybe there’s hope for folks like that, even 2k years later?

    @89 – I – perhaps mistakenly – found throughout the thread a tone that suggests that the baby of do-gooding is being thrown out with the bathwater mockery of certain political-cultural leanings, a cheapening of the work of some (Graham, for example) because of his political preferences.

  90. Rob,

    I have no idea what you’re saying in the first part.
    I will confess that I gladly and loudly will mock any wedding of politics and pulpit.
    I think it’s an abomination to the Gospel.

    Franklin Graham is a despicable lout…regardless of political affiliation.
    In the coming weeks I’ll back that up with cold, hard, facts.
    I really won’t care who that offends.

  91. Rob,

    I could perhaps understand if you think some of us are antinomian, although I would disagree. But, at least then we could discuss that topic. It’s an important topic and I credit you with bringing it up. But, your comments are a little dismissive. If we took the NT seriously in these discussions, we could look at the NT, for example Romans and Galatians, and perhaps arrive at a consensus that grace and mercy are our only hope. Or, you could provide your exegesis which might show something different. At least then, we could focus on the text and not on clever slogans.

    Regarding Cornelius, did you read down to verse 43?

    “To him all the prophets bear witness that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.”

  92. It’s election day in Australia. It’s going to be a fairly close election, though the incumbents have their nose in front. Whatever happens today, our country is still going be governed by dishonest politicians, those politicians will have less control than big business and golbal conditions, and God will still be in charge.

    The election marks the welcome end of the election campaign, abouth the 11th of my voting life but the first I’ve experienced on Facebook, with many Christian friends talking about what Christians must consider when voting. Some are the conservatives one associates with Christians, others are decrying our countries poor treatment of asylum seekers. I’m in the evanglican scene, so lots of the spokespeople are quite balanced.

    One speaker said that Australia cannot have a revival. The Church was never that strong in the first place. What we need is a vival.

  93. Jean,

    You and Rob will have some things in common.
    He’s the other person who got mad at me because he thought I slighted Wesley… 🙂

    Good man, though we don’t agree on much outside of Jesus.

  94. Michael,

    “He’s the other person who got mad at me because he thought I slighted Wesley…”

    “he thought”? LOL!

  95. It’s been a remarkable thread…thank you all.

    Not what I expected at all…

  96. #90 I agree with Michael. Franklin Graham is a royal Judas type figure. Why? Judas stole small amounts of money from Jesus’s personal charity purse. Frank has managed to steal millions out of “Samaritans” Purse. No one should be making themselves a multi-millionaire by running a charity. The name of the charity is literally a sacrilege against the parable that Jesus taught. The Samaritan gave of his own money to help a despised enemy. Frank is literally stealing from the poor and making a mockery out of Jesus teaching in Matt. 6:24. The political side show is not the main problem with him in my opinion. More like a symptom of something very evil. Lust for power and money is very much self-evident with this particular “Christian” celebrity.

  97. Jean – Antinomianism is alive and well and very well marketed under new brands. There’s no other way to treat its various appearances and re-branding except dismissively, because every word spoken against its latest incarnation is dismissed as moralism.
    Continuing to Acts 10.43 . . . I don’t get your point. Once forgiven, Cornelius can abandon doing good and fearing God? Or is it the hackneyed “I’m saying we’re saved by good works” thing?
    Antinomianism is all clever slogans. We who are anachronisms are not clever. We should just shut up and heed the new thinkers.

    @ Michael’s 91 – you asked if I knew anyone who fulfilled fearing God and doing good, I tried to answer with people I know who fear God and do good.

  98. Rob,

    I’m totally lost.

    You wrote;
    “I’m glad whatever revival is coming will be different and won’t have any onerous do-gooding. That’ll be refreshing. We shake off the God fearing part and even I could fall in love with Hillary.”

    I wrote that I didn’t see anyone making anywhere close to those kinds of claims…and it’s simply gotten more confusing from there.

  99. Rob,
    Antinomianism was a false teaching that argued that Christians don’t need to hear the Law because good works will spring out of the Christian spontaneously. The Reformers said, no, Christians still need the Law because of their sinful flesh.

    But no one, at any time, has argued that Christians don’t do good works. The mark of a Christian is the fruit of the Spirit.

    So, what’s really going on?

  100. Revivalism seems, the older I get, to be a kind of sentimentality for a prosperous empire that some American Christians have. Progressives don’t have that sentimentality for the imagined past but for an imagined future. The number of people in the Puget Sound area who have sincerely convinced themselves Sanders was going to get the nomination as embarrassingly large.

    Maybe some folks have abandoned a desire for revivalism but even the most secular types can spare some room in their heart for apocalyptic imagination if the wrong candidate wins. 😀 Alan Moore’s Watchmen is thirty years old this year and it looks like the nukes didn’t fly inside of thirty years like the Comedian said after all. It’s not just been Christians who’ve sold stories of paranoid doom and gloom. There’ s a fairly illustrious to-the-left tradition. Would we even have gotten The Terminator franchise from Cameron if there hadn’t been anxiety about stuff like the Strategic Defense Initiative?

  101. @ BD

    First I should retract a sentence from # 29 as I can’t substantiate it.

    …” I feel a bit sorry for Lonnie, and don’t know why I should consider him a believer at all…”

    I do feel sorry for the things that happened to him, that much is true. But about the believer part the scriptures have this to say.
    “..Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven…”vs.4

    Lonnie said he became a believer at eight while at camp so I accept it because the scriptures say so. Two verses later it says…”But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck,..”vs.6

    It would appear that years of beatings and rape might count as “offend ” to a young child. (Strong’s- skandalizo – 4624) I understand skandalizo to be define as “to stumble” or to “trap” “trip up.”etc.

    There is no scripture I can think of that says a believer can’t be on on drugs, belong to a drug cult and part of the local gay scene.

    At this point Lonnie is 17, it’s 1965- ish and he is about to meet somebody or something in Tahquitz Canyon. Are we on the same page?

  102. if, as most of us believe, a move of God is God dependent, then, to quote an annoying English teacher of long years ago, the question is not ‘can’ we have revival?, but rather, may we have revival? please Lord

    just sayin… 🙂

  103. The historial accounts on the Jesus Movement here are bit Calvary-centric. Perhaps that is the only place you fellowshipped….

    Calvary Chapel was no doubt the prominent figure during the Jesus Movement, particularly in Orange County (where I grew up). They were not by far the only players in the county. God was doing an incredible work in many different places with many unknown soldiers of the kingdom. The foot soldiers who spread the gospel in their spheres of influence are the true symbols of what the Jesus Movement was really all about.

    The Sunset Strip experienced a great harvest amongst the real hippies of the day. Christian coffee houses and even some night clubs sprang up for a season. There were storefront ministries popping up, Christian restaurants although many of them short lived.

    God moved greatly in SBC churches, Presbyterian churches, Pentecostal churches along with the development of independent church plants of every stripe.

    My first experience with Calvary Chapel was right after they raised their tent. I beleive Lonnie had already left. They where going great guns at that time. Whatever effect Lonnie may have had was covered by others. Two things put Calvary Chapel on the map: the Saturday night concerts that were overseen by Tom Stipe, and Maranatha Music.

  104. @105

    I think a lot of people like myself did not have a good understanding of the movement.

    Do you know how long Bob Mumford had been at L.I.F.E. when Lonnie met him?

  105. Pstrmike: You are right. I was on the East Coast and God was doing a mighty work in the lives of many. I groan every time I hear that Chuck and Lonnie were the leaders of the Jesus Movement. It was all over the country, in places they did not touch. It’s like taking the glory from God to declare that it was their movement.

    Eric: The Jesus Movement may have not been an Awakening in the sense that we had had them before, but it sure changed a lot of lives. I sometimes personally think about it as God coming to rescue a generation of kids who had lost their way, while bringing in all kinds of other folks as well. Where I am from (Long Island) there were large amounts of Catholics who were “awakened” and saved. When I was in college, Jesus was very much at work saving drug addicts and hippies, sometimes speaking directly to them when they were higher than a kite. In NY we knew nothing of Chuck Smith or Lonnie Frisbee, but we did recognize a move of the Holy Spirit. I’m sure he used Chuck and Lonnie in a big way in their area, but it was God’s movement, not theirs.

    The gist of it was that people were saved, they saw God move in mighty ways, saw awesome answers to prayer, some miracles, instant deliverance from drug addiction, healing from mental illness and much more. I don’t hear much about these kinds of things anymore, but the people who came out of that mess into God’s kingdom felt at the time as if Heaven touched Earth.

  106. I wonder how many people experienced the Jesus Movement thing verse just having memories of memories of someone told me.
    I never saw, experienced, knew about the Jesus Movement until I came to Calvary Chapel in 1981. I was in college 1967 – 1971 at Cal State Fullerton at the time. I was a long haired anti war protestor at the time and knew nothing of Jesus Movement. Their existence on campus must have been nearly nil.

    I wonder, except for those who were really there, is this more like Woodstock? You know, if everyone who said they were at Woodstock actually was, the attendance would have been 5 million people.

    I have heard how they worked the beaches, but I used to go to the beach almost everyday and no one handed me a Bible. Perhaps Bob Sweat could come on and testify – he used to hang at the same beach 1 lifeguard station over from me. 🙂

    But I am a direct descendant of Lonnie Frisbee. Greg Laurie came to the Lord through Frisbee and I through Laurie.

  107. the comments here that tell of God’s moving all across the nation and beyond(?) confirm my sense that it wasn’t God targeting the CCers as His last best torchbearers… but that doesn’t take away from what God did under that tent… nor Billy Graham’s tent… nor the Schaeffer’s in Switzerland…
    i’m pretty sure that our government played a part, encouraging Christian leaders to ‘make America great’ as they recognized what good citizens Christians are … yes, we are 🙂
    are the problems we now focus on simply the result of men who saw an opportunity and have tried to build their own little Christian empires? perhaps, even thinking that they were all that crucial to the Church’s witness? thinking that they were … special? and most were/are in the world’s view… not sure where God will place them… not sure at all about that

  108. I’ve really enjoyed reading this thread. Great observations from many different perspectives. Here are some of my random observations, as someone who is old enough to have experienced the Jesus Movement, but still young enough to have some hazy memories of it.

    Larry Eskridge’s great book, “God’s Forever Family”, is the best history of this movement to date. He documents the spontaneous explosion, around this country and the world, of a spiritual awakening amongst the counterculture in the late sixties and early seventies. Calvary Chapel was certainly a big part of this, but not necessarily the epicenter. But one of Eskridge’s most profound observations was about how this counter cultural “movement” was essentially over after a few years. He gives numerous examples of how the organized church tried to take over the “movement” and essentially killed it. His section on Explo 72 (the attempt by Campus Crusade and Billy Graham to create a Christian Woodstock in Texas) is profoundly significant. Billy Graham almost pulled out of the festival because the younger Crusade staff members resisted Graham’s insistence that Richard Nixon should appear on the stage. (Ultimately Billy made a brief appearance and they allowed a short recorded message from Nixon.)

    Eskridge’s reflections on the end of the Jesus Movement resonate with my recollections. The movement went from a counter cultural phenomenon, where hippies were getting saved and forming communities that resembled their hippie lifestyles, to a movement that was more and more controlled by the organized churches of various denominations. Hippies had to be trained and restrained, learning and adhering to the rules. Ministries rapidly became businesses. And by the early 70’s the growth of this movement became more by converting Christian kids into hippie Christians rather than by actual hippies being converted into Jesus People.

    I certainly desire to see another revival in my lifetime. But revival tends to come when no one but the Holy Spirit is actually trying to start it, and it will usually start outside the organized church. Revival in the 60’s didn’t start in a little country church. It started on the beaches of Southern California, in Tahquitz Canyon, on the streets of Hollywood, in the San Fransisco parks, and a bunch of other places. Historically churches are much better at stopping revivals than starting them.

    Just my two cents worth.

  109. For all you new folks…

    Dave Rolph is a long time CC pastor and someone who has been a friend to me even when he wanted to smack me sideways.

    There are few people I trust when it comes to the people, personalities, and events associated with CC…this is one of them.

    “Historically churches are much better at stopping revivals than starting them.”

    I may lift that for my book… 🙂

  110. Nice to meet you Dave. The quote Michael picked out caught my eye too. Classic.

  111. http://amzn.to/29at7yb

    Connects to the Jesus Movement book that has been referenced here…

  112. So Dave, what you’re saying is that when the next revival comes, it won’t start in the CC organized church? 😉

  113. I’ve told my church that the next “revival” will start among gay illegal aliens so that God will be guaranteed to do His work without interference…

  114. #115- it could happen …… ? quien sabe

  115. I’m only kidding a bit.
    As I said in the article, revival tends to sprout where its unwanted,among the unwanted…

  116. Dave, (I think I still owe you a Dodgers game,)

    The one thing that is always missing from the Jesus movement stories as we try to connect them to a work / move of God – is that many other hippies seeking spiritual satisfaction ended up in eastern religions led by many gurus around the country who also started communes and also had the same troubles cutting off the sex, drugs and rock n roll. I don’t think we would give any attribution to the move of the spirit there – just quest.

    I think the whole hippie movement showed itself to be selfish and lacking in any kind of purpose. So the hippies drifted off on spiritual journeys. The Christian aspect was easier to swallow as the eastern religions had a cultural shock aspect and of course the Beatles breakup. 🙂

  117. @103 — I am following you at that point.

  118. It’s funny Michael. I have thought the same thing as you. The best contemporary parallel to what happened in the drug culture would be for it to happen in the gay culture. (There were way more homosexuals involved in the Jesus Movement than most people would want to admit.) I’m not expecting revival to break out at gay pride parades, but no one in the sixties expected it to break out among the hippies either. I don’t expect revival to explode in churches either so I suppose it could happen.

  119. @118
    I’ve been in church since around 1962, so I watched the Jesus Movement unfold first hand.

    The hippie thing slowly faded away, and I think the fad began when the Beatles broke up. The Manson murders helped its demise.

    In 1971, I was on a mission trip with my church in the Northern Sierras, doing ministry in little towns where the main street was the state highway that ran through them. There were many young hippie looking people up there hitchhiking around. Many had left the Haight and the “back to the land” ideal was in full swing. It seemed that by 1972-73 that it had all but faded away. But by then the granola shops had become well established, but most head shops had closed their doors.

    I always thought the final blow to the hippie thing was when they premiered “Happy Days” and there was this interest in 50’s nostalgia. The Jesus Movement seemed to outlast the counter-revolution, and it seemed to fad even slower and quieter.

  120. The hippie movement was a critique of culture. The failure of that critique was increasingly becoming evident and was exposed once and for all at Altamonte. It was a violent end to the 60s and doomed the idea that the counterculture movement of the hippies could succeed. In the aftermath thousands turned to Christ. These are not clean and indisputable categories but just observations

  121. and that critique of culture extended into the Jesus Movement that was not always kind to the established church…. and vice versa

    I wonder if some of the idealism that I find with older Christians is a result of what may have been engrained into Christian thinking by counter-cultureists turned Christian

    funny how boomers turned out to be just like their parents in many respects

  122. Where I’m from, we found the best way to get hippies to call out to Jesus was shotgun shells filled with rock salt…

    Just had to interject that from my heathen youth… 🙂

  123. LMAO!!!!

  124. I believe revival is totally in the hands of God. For me revival is a personal thing in the sense I want to walk closer with God and allow Him full control of my life.

    As I’ve stated I came to Christ in April of 1976 which was at the tail end of the Jesus movement. It was at a Saturday night concert and Tom Stipe brought the message. I had long hair but was by no means a hippie. But what I experienced that night is what I can only term magical. My life changed immediately and I’ve never been the same.

    Growing up I was immersed in my life and surviving at home and hanging out with my friends. I wasn’t aware of what was going on around me in the world. I remember the big events but they were soon forgotten as I lived my life.

    It all came together that Saturday night at CCCM.

    I just reserved a copy of the book Dave mentioned above and will begin reading it next week when it arrives at the library. Saved me about $30.00!

    Thanks for posting this Michael.

  125. @110

    Hello Dave.
    Nice to meet you. I make a lot of CC hostile comments lately. Part of that is due to my thinking being in flux as I rethink my life. The GFA thing just served to accelerate what had been going on for years. The ideas that historically came out of CC are things I took seriously, and therefore rethinking is a serious matter also.

    Let me also say that I appreciate when people who have the ability to shed light, do so. This has not necessarily been my church experience, so I place a premium on it.

    Thank you.

  126. Revivals can help the leaders generate income and political power, this is a very high priority and honorable goal.

  127. Oh…and here is an old cassette tape that has been passed around so many times that I have no clue as to how many times this particular copy is from the original tape.

    My friend Erik has uploaded to to Youtube for everyone to have access to it.

    If you will ignore the low quality and allow the content to come across to you, as have a lot of Christians, you might get a small taste of what the tip of revival feels like.

    When I first listened to it, I thought it was simple and corny, but as I continued to listen the Holy Spirit manifested His presence in the room and I soon enough had tears streaming down my face.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MQbO-6LSTRQ

  128. BD @ 119

    OK we are on the same page. Lonnie hitch hikes to the falls. Al the details about clothed or naked, stoned or lucid don’t matter. It’s great stuff for the pew sitters listening to the testimoney to add interest, but not here on the thread. Gay or strait, doesn’t matter.

    So LF shouts up to God and… Let’s pause the timeline.

  129. (From 131 accidentally hit submit when I got up to let the dog out)

    Before God answers Lonnie let’s remember I Timothy 4: 16: “Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.”

    So let’s have some doctrine while the timeline is paused with Lonnie at the Falls.

    Collosians 1:16 “For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible,
    whether they be thrones,
    or dominions,
    or principalities,

    or powers:

    all things were created by him, and for him:”

    LF had power. That power affected or changed the direction of many people lives as mentioned by comments. “The Spirit of God moved,” has been said in some places by others in describing these events.

    What I think was being overlook is the Colossians verse above. Jesus Christ created everything. Every angel and spirit where created and continue to exist by him. They are all a spirit of the Lord. The angels are Sons of God and Lucifer was the Covering Cherub. All angels are ministers of fire, demons included. They all exist for his good pleasure.

    A Spirit of the Lord is about to talk to Lonnie at the Falls. And in subsequent events an anointing or mantel is placed on him. One will take place as you know at Fullerton Four Square Church, as described on pg. 66- 71 of Not by Might…..

    So what spirit is going to talk to him and what doctrine do we take heed too, in order to save our butts?

  130. Lonnie told me that when he was a child as his “uncle held a knife to his neck and raped him,” he had no one to turn to but the Holy Spirit.

    No adult would believe him when he told them what was happening to him.

    But God listened!

    Anyone who personally knew Lonnie could hear in his voice that God was for him and not against him.

    Lonnie said he developed a supernatural ability to follow the Holy Spirit.

    Out of the train wreck of his life God moved powerfully on many many lives.

  131. @130

    The voice is familiar but I can’t place it. Who is it?

  132. A guy named Leonard Ravenhill, along with Steve Hill and Spurgeon.

  133. Also pastor John Kilpatrick of Brownsville revival ( 1995-2000)

  134. “if all the hippies, cut off all their hair, I don’t care… I don’t care…”
    ~Jimi Hendrix, If 6 was 9.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZuFq4CfRR8

  135. Brownsville Revival? Toronto Blessing? Lakeland Revival? False spirits & manifestations. People barking liking dogs, crawling around on the floor, laughing uncontrollably.

    Oh, how I remember the “Apostolic & Prophetic” commissioning of Todd Bentley by Peter Wagner & Rick Joyner.

    Seems so long ago, but I haven’t forgotten.

    Remember how Peter Wagner made the “Apostolic Declaration” that Todd Bentley’s ministry and “anointing” would increase and no one would be able to stop it, etc.

    Such foolishness, so sad. Yet, predicted by Paul himself in 1 Timothy 4:1

  136. Did you bring your pitchfork with you?

  137. nathan,

    Go ahead and make your point. My mind is clear that the God and father of our Lord Jesus gave Lonnie a vision and sent him out different.

    As a product of that generation I will tell you that tens of thousands of us had experiences of God’s direct communication to us

  138. Scott,

    I will admit to you as a person whose life was changed by the renewal though I never went to any of those places during the revival times. (I did do research on them for a DMin) I will however admit that the service you refer to was for me the saddest event of the entire renewal.

    Those men were deceived by Todd Bentley. I have to admit that I was embarrassed by it all. We communicated some in those days.

  139. BUT,

    Scott you are flat our wrong about the manifestations being false spirits.
    You say more than you know.

  140. Okay, maybe I say more than I know.

    However, I know one thing for sure, this was NOT a manifestation of the Holy Spirit speaking to Todd Bentley at his so-called Apostolic Commissioning.

    It was carnality…at best.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=macIFwHROaM

  141. Forget Todd Bentley – Toronto and Brownsville were just as bad and gave permission to Todd Bentley.Those who say they have direct unplugged communications with God are dangerous. They are much like the vision casting pastor – how do I disagree with God.

    How do we know that God did not give Todd B the authority to do what he did / does (is he still around?) And what of those who confirmed Todd’s ‘anointing’ by their own personal encounters with God. These guys are worse than horse thieves.

  142. I probably should just forget about TAWD and the rest of those hucksters.

    However, those images of people with shaking heads, drunken speech, uncontrollable laughing, falling on the floor, barking like animals, etc., has unfortunately been stamped in my memory.

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