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57 Responses

  1. UnCCed@UnCCed.com says:

    While BB make’s a lot of good points, and generally speaking, BB has been for a while a very good example for CC pastors to follow, I’m stupefied how self-centered they can’t see their model for what it is.
    When a CC pastor “feels called,” why then the entire church should follow.
    BUT, when most of “the sheep” (peons) “feel called,” then they’ll learn really quick how fast the papal control tighten their grip!
    Again (previous post I made to a different blog post), its silly CC pastors defend “their” position (side) when they’ve cultivated this narcissistic “following the Spirit” for decades and now its blowing-up in their faces.
    In other words, a CC king gets to do whatever he wants without accountability, but not “the sheep.”
    However not when the CC kings get a taste of their own medicine (not getting a say in something-what MOST of us have had rammed down our throats), they don’t like it very much.
    I want to be clear-I’m not on either “side.” I’m just hoping others see the hypocrisy here.
    They’re actually defending their “side” in movement where only THEIR position matters and its finally being shown for what it is, now THEY don’t like it.
    Maybe if they didn’t teach/act for long only THEY matter, maybe if they had the humility to learn from us peons how to get along over the years, maybe THEY wouldn’t having this tantrum now.
    I’m of Paul, no I’m of Cephas, NO I’m “GLOBAL.” Gimmie a break.

  2. UnCCed@UnCCed.com says:

    I’m actually surprised BB and the “other side” aren’t throwing around the V-word, their favorite when they feel threatened.
    “It’s not part of MY VISION” they love to say.
    Forget about Jesus already gave the “vision” and I guess that’s not good enough.
    How do these “all we need is the Word” guys get only THEIR vision matters?!!!
    How do you go from “verse-by-verse” to whatever THE SENIOR PASTOR feels/says is “the vision” and everyone else gets to say “bah!”???
    What happen to “Jesus is the pastor?”
    When did Jesus teach/act like He needed to be “global” or part or the CCA?
    Who is Chuck, who is Peter, etc.?
    We (CCs) went from “God blessed the movement because we were following the Spirit” to now we need different websites, approval papers, etc.

  3. Rick from Texas says:

    I left the last Calvary Chapel I attended because I realized the pastor’s vision was not what I sensed I should be doing. When I shared this during a home study, I was rebuked by the group for not getting in lock step with the pastor.

    Needless to say, with 90 days of slowly withdrawing from the fellowship, all of the people who “loved” me quit asking when I was coming back. It has been 5 years and still no word from any of them.

  4. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    I am at wits end over all these articles the past couple of years of people wringing their hands about the title Evangelical – everyone going back and forth – “do we keep the title or not?”

    Listen closely folks – it’s not the title. It is the theology of the evangelical that creates, causes the issue. Call yourselves whatever you want and the stink will still be there. Within the group there is still a whisper of Christianity – one more step in the wrong direction and you’re out.

  5. EricL says:

    Rick @3, I hope you have found a new congregation to join in those 5 years, a place where there is true community and where you can get to know folks and be known by them, where you encounter truth and love in equal measure.

  6. EricL says:

    MLD @4, you are sounding rather negative this day. Maybe we should contact those Lutherans in the second link and ask them to exorcise the spirit of grumpiness from you. 🙂

  7. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    EricL, I already commented elsewhere on this article that isn’t quite what Lutherans do for exorcism – but we do indeed do exorcism – many times all over the world.

    In baptism we renounce the devil and all his works – and with a splash of water an exorcism is performed — pretty cool stuff 🙂

  8. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    The thing about ‘evangelicals’ can be found this week in the Tullian article. The writer there places the ‘predator’ pastor at the feet of evangelicalism (if it is the same article I read yesterday). The dysfunctionalism that runs amuck in the group is astounding (implied in the article)

  9. Steve Wright says:

    So if someone chooses to leave a church, and for a few weeks the people of that church encourage the person to stay, but his/her mind is made up and they leave the fellowship, they choose to disassociate from that church, if the people don’t continue to come calling, even as the other person is not initiating their own reaching out, then somehow that means there is no “true community” in that church. Wow.

    Did none of you have friends in high school who wrote in your yearbooks how they would never lose touch, we will be friends for life, yada yada….do you now think badly of them because they don’t reach out to you, even as you have chosen not to reach out to them because time and life marches on. That’s what reunions are for (and facebook) and I have little doubt that if one returned to a church after five years not only would many of the people be different, but the ones who were still there would be plenty friendly and happy to see you again with very few exceptions.

    In all seriousness, for all the non Calvary Chapel folks out there, what are the pastoral expectations of your pastor when it comes to people who leave your church (and for that matter your denomination). MLD, how often is your pastor or all of you members required to reach out to ex-Lutherans that leave your fellowship and make it clear they just do not feel in agreement anymore with you. Does it mean that if you run into the guy at Costco you would not be friendly to him?

  10. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Such as this paragraph from the article;
    “Evangelicalism has become an industrial complex, fueled on the broken bodies and wounded spirits of abuse victims, driven entirely by their abusers. This complex has time and again produced abusive pastors. Men like CJ Mahaney, Matt Chandler, Mark Driscoll, Darin Patrick, RC Sproul, Jr., and Doug Wilson have come to exercise considerable influence precisely because Evangelicalism holds its pastors above reproach, because it is predicated on a system of sin-leveling designed to make the persons in the pews entirely to guilt ridden to ever ask questions.”

  11. John 20:29 says:

    ” one more step in the wrong direction and you’re out.”… good byeeeee uh out of what?

    I think Michael does focus on the bogus leadership, but my concern as i read the thread this morning is for all the folk who honestly love the Lord and are inclined to defer to the “older and wiser” for any number of reasons/justifications (sorry for using a theological term in a secular manner here)… how can they be released to discern for themselves? interceding prayers? i do feel that when one gives oneself permission to do so – honestly out of a love for the Faith – that the Holy Spirit does, then, illuminate …
    like the life itself, as a rule it is little by little and step by step, but it is a glorious journey on a safe path, no matter the pace … IMHO
    i feel kind of like the guy in the pizza commercial who says to the lettuce eaters, “eat a pizza once in while!” 🙂

  12. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Folks stay on our membership rolls until they specifically ask to be removed. We send them mailers and monthly newsletters as such. The funny thing is the number of people who have left our church who still have regular and fellowship friendships with people still in our church.
    When we had a split several years ago many people on both sides remained in home studies together. Many are still tied through the school.

    The one thing we do not do, as many CC do – we do not shun folks who leave … even if they leave mad.

  13. Steve Wright says:

    The one thing we do not do, as many CC do – we do not shun folks who leave … even if they leave mad.
    ——————————————————————-
    Shunning is a word that has a specific meaning. I don’t think you could back that up, and even if there are some examples out there (as I am sure someone annonymously will share with us) – to say that is the practice of the “many” is an exaggeration. I’ve been in this movement for 23 years and have never once been taught it, practiced it, heard it shared in the many pastoral gatherings and discussions I have experienced, never read about it etc.

    But back to the point. So MLD, assuming no junk mail or school connections, my questions stands. How often is your pastor or your elders expected to initiate personal contact with those who specifically have left Lutheranism

  14. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Folks never leave Lutheranism .:-) The may leave Lutheran churches.
    Our pastors bury a good percentage of our membership.

    I answered your post but I didn’t ask if you were referring to something specific in the articles above?

  15. Steve Wright says:

    The Lord is our Shepherd and He leads His sheep. We are all priests and go directly to God on the merits of Christ. We are married to Christ, not our church fellowship. We are servants to Christ. The various ways the Bible gets this fundamental truth across are meaningful.

    We have people who leave the church. Often it takes weeks for me to realize someone is not here anymore because of the layout and multiple services and so forth. If I have contact information for that person I will contact them. Sometimes I don’t have that information.

    When I initiate the contact I am usually told they felt led to start attending another church. Sometimes a reason is given, sometimes not and it is left that vague. However, I don’t think that is vague at all because the Lord IS our Shepherd and He DOES guide us.

    So, is the argument going to be that the pastor should argue with someone who makes that declaration. That he should say, “No, the Lord did not lead you to another church. He wouldn’t do that. Or..What is the REAL reason, what are you upset about”

    Or do you express your relief that they are well and in good fellowship and wish them the best….and then go about your pastoral responsibility as the under shepherd to the Lord towards the sheep He still has given you.

  16. EricL says:

    Steve @9, I’m the one who mentioned “true community”, but I said nothing about it lacking in the church Rick came from. I was just encouraging him to be involved in a congregation where he would experience such. Frankly, I have no knowledge about Rick or that particular CC.

    I’m just hoping that he has found a church to connect with and where he can grow. That’s all. I hate to see folks being Lone Ranger Christians trying to go through life without a church family to support them, and was concerned that he might have become one. Sorry for being unclear.

  17. Jean says:

    “The Lord is our Shepherd and He leads His sheep. We are all priests and go directly to God on the merits of Christ.”

    Steve,
    I do not think you give due regard for the office of pastor. The NT establishes under-shepherds.

    “Have confidence in your leaders and submit to their authority, because they keep watch over you as those who must give an account. Do this so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no benefit to you.”

    There are many other passages on church authority and the office of the keys that one could cite.

  18. EricL says:

    MLD @12,
    I spent about two decades in Calvary Chapels and I never saw anyone shunned for leaving the congregation. They certainly weren’t removed from the membership roll, since there is none. There were no proclamations from the pulpit or in e-newsletters ordering folks to avoid so-and-so for leaving the church. None of that. You’re confusing CC with fundamentalists or Amish.

    I don’t think Steve Wright drives the streets of Lake Elsinore in a horse-and-buggy 🙂

  19. Steve Wright says:

    Steve,
    I do not think you give due regard for the office of pastor
    —————————————-
    Well…that’s a first.

  20. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Call it what you will – friendships end and the phone calls stop.
    We have had 100s here testify to that over the years.
    When I left my last CC I sent an email out to over 100 people to explain why – I was nice and even said the change was all on me.
    I did specify some disagreements I had – to this day, 10 yrs later I never heard from a single person.

    I did hear through the grapevine that Holland Davis had told everyone I left to be a Calvinist LOL 🙂

  21. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    “Or do you express your relief that they are well and in good fellowship and wish them the best…”

    If they were not going to another Lutheran church – I think my pastor would intercede as far as he could. If given the opportunity to sit down and yes, argue the merits of staying in a Lutheran congregation.

    We see it much differently that we would consider (and since we are all mature adults here – no one should take offense) we would consider it allowing the sheep to wander off to slaughter by allowing them to leave – even with a “God told me to do it.”

  22. Steve Wright says:

    I’d like to read that letter, MLD. No matter how nice you are the bottom line is you are telling everyone that they are wrong and you have found the light and are going to pursue things differently.

    The one time I actually can say I left a church for cause, (as opposed to when I left CCCM to serve elsewhere) I wrote only the Senior Pastor to explain. I too was nice, but gave my explanation because I thought I owed it to him since I was serving there in various capacities. I recognized he did things differently, and those differences were not about who was right or wrong…just differences. Oil and water. So no need to preach at him. Dropped off my keys to the building and he was not there so left the letter.

    I did not expect to hear from him and was far more impressed that he did not respond than if he had contacted me to want to argue about it.

    And I did not expect to be flooded with phone calls from the congregation (though this church actually had a membership directory with that contact info for all). Why would they? Of course, as I ran into folks from time to time people were friendly, as was I, and once facebook started there were a couple connections made there with the past. I don’t think “friendships end” is accurate any more than it is to say that about old school friends from the past that you drop out of touch with.

    So maybe I just don’t get it. Or I have different expectations of how much of the 24 precious hours we have each day I expect very busy people with dozens or hundreds of people in their life they are still involved with to exhaust thinking and worrying about me after I choose to leave them for my own personal reasons (which include the implication that they are of course doing it wrong)

  23. Duane Arnold says:

    #15
    Steve,

    I think you have the answer…
    “Or do you express your relief that they are well and in good fellowship and wish them the best….and then go about your pastoral responsibility as the under shepherd to the Lord towards the sheep He still has given you.”

    The only caveat is, if there is a pastoral or staff issue I think we have a responsibility to take the issue seriously.

    My problem is more fundamental. I always learned about the “marks” of the Church – “one, holy, catholic and apostolic”. I think we have had to “spiritualize” the words to a point that they barely retain their meaning. We are increasingly “local”… “in our own camp”… “this fellowship” as apart from “that fellowship”… It is getting to the point that I think we are losing the meaning of “Church”…

  24. Steve Wright says:

    #21 – No offense taken. I expect little else from a denomination that has the communion restrictions you Lutherans have towards the Body of Christ.

    One thing I have heard my whole life from ex-Catholics is their needing to get over the idea that to leave Catholicism was to leave Christ.

    I see Luther still had a little bit of Rome on him he never washed off…unless you Lutherans are acting in a way Luther wouldn’t have.

  25. Steve Wright says:

    The only caveat is, if there is a pastoral or staff issue I think we have a responsibility to take the issue seriously.
    ————————————————
    Most definitely, Duane. And that is something I ask when I contact them, to check to make sure they did not have an issue with something that needed addressing.

    Of course, as regulars here know, sometimes when there is slander, and the worst is believed without one wanting to check out the details, it can be frustrating and yet the people are not going to be forthcoming with why they chose to listen to such things, believing the worst, without the courage or courtesy to find out the other side. And in such cases I really don’t feel the burden to poke around in a desire to defend myself. The Lord is our defense to slander and if people believe the worst and choose to move on, then so be it. Again, I wish them the best but I’m not going to argue after the fact.

  26. Jean says:

    “I see Luther still had a little bit of Rome on him he never washed off…unless you Lutherans are acting in a way Luther wouldn’t have.”

    Some people think all roads lead to heaven. Other people think their confession (because we all confess something) means something and is important. People have fought wars, and have given up their lives for their confession. If a pastor believes that the doctrine of his confession is true, then can he carry out his calling faithfully if we easily surrenders one of the sheep in his care to wolves?

  27. Babylon's Dread says:

    Nice article by my old friend Lance Witt, he did his turn at the helm of success driven ministry now he looks for meaning.

    I am an old school bible teacher. Do the work and feed the flock, we are not the majority.

  28. Jean says:

    “I expect little else from a denomination that has the communion restrictions you Lutherans have towards the Body of Christ.”

    LOL. It is people, such as of the CC persuasion, who deny the very meaning of communion who exclude themselves. Anyone who agrees with the Lutheran confessions as set forth in the Small Catechism is invited and welcome.

  29. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Steve – a couple of points
    1.) I wrote and sent that email to the senior pastor, all the associates, staff, ministry leaders, everyone in my 3 classes – you name it. I said and you ignored that I told them it wasn’t their issue it was mine that I had a change.
    The fact no one called or contacted me was not a bother, because I knew what to expect as being a part of that “unsaid” culture.

    2.) You are right – as Lutherans we don’t take that all churches are equal and acceptable to the health of the church member, and would be concerned where they might end up. Perhaps this is why we have members and you don’t. To let someone just go off with a “be warmed and filled” is spiritual homicide on that pastors part..

    In some circles, changing churches more often than you change your underwear is looked upon as spiritual victory.

  30. Duane Arnold says:

    I don’t want to be pedantic, but I think we need to admit that, for most but not all, choosing a church in America today is usually a “consumerist” activity… “I like his preaching”… “We like their music”… “It’s close to out home”…. I’m not saying that this is praiseworthy, but I think it is the reality of the situation. With a consumerist mentality, almost anything can trigger a change. That being said, we are part of the problem. Somehow we don’t always communicate that the Church is something more than the sum total of preaching, mode of Bible Study, music, etc.

  31. John 20:29 says:

    ?what major difference remains from Martin Luther’s break with R.C., other than the works salvation thing? – oh, and giving priests some relief from an artificially celibate life… i’m asking regarding R.C., not the rest of the protestant world

  32. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Luther never broke from the RCC – they kicked him out – cut him off from communion.
    If you read Trent you will see what Rome thought of Luther 😉

  33. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Duane – you are 100% correct. That said, I would discourage pastors from buying into it and just letting folks wander away … something about that one lost sheep.

  34. John 20:29 says:

    #32 – well, that sounds like a “break” to me… no matter WHO did the dropping
    but i guess that does answer my question… very little difference, but not a team player…

  35. pstrmike says:

    Getting back to CCGN…..

    I am going to carefully follow this for a season as I have been grandfathered in to the Network. Part of me thinks his methods are brilliant and part of would have like to made the choice on my own. But then again, I can always withdraw. There are some things to be cautious about, but for now I will keep that to myself.

    What I find important here are two important things.

    First I sense the desire for freedom with CGN while CCA appears to be tightening up its membership. St. Petersburg next November should be interesting. but they will have had year to process this change.

    I go back to the tent days, Calvary Chapel was all about freedom then. I am encouraged to see a step back in that direction. Don’t give me any “hills to die on” speeches unless you want me running for the hills.

    Secondly, an important distinction is that churches and therefore pastors are a part of the Network. I can leave my church and they can stay within the Network.

    Seems to me like I have little if any use for CCA, but at the request of my elders, I will give it a few months before I decide whether to turn in my dove or not.

    And yes, CCCM/CCGN is Calvary Chapel. always has been, always will.

  36. Jean says:

    “what major difference remains from Martin Luther’s break with R.C., other than the works salvation thing?”

    There are several differences, but before for I describe a few, I want to emphasize that Lutherans don’t disavow, eliminate or change anything simply because Rome believes or does something, as a lot of evangelicals do, who throw out the baby (I.e., the Gospel) with the bath water. Lutherans disavow only the errors.

    Regarding differences:

    Lutherans believe in sola scriptura. So, we hold to 2 concrete sacraments (not 7 or 8).

    Lutherans believe no man is infallible.

    Lutherans disavow man made forms of worship, unlike Catholics and many evangelicals. I saw last week at the local evangelical mega church that they were performing baby dedications. Where does that come up in the Bible? The same could be said of altar calls and a requirement for full immersion baptism. The Catholics and evangelicals have a lot in common when it comes to man made worship. Lutherans stick to what Christ gave us.

  37. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    “Lutherans believe no man is infallible.”

    I must be getting tired – I thought it said no man was inflatable 😉

  38. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Lutherans are very much in line with the RCC in liturgy and style. Evangelicals keep moving closer and closer to Rome in doctrine.

    A funny commonality with Rome is the altar call. Look at a typical Sunday, but it shows more with Billy Graham or Greg Laurie at the Harvest Crusade.

    At the end, the people come forward and stand literally at the pastor’s feet as he is elevated at stage level. They come down to him – and at that moment all eyes are closed and all heads bowed — except one, the one who sees all – the pastor. And in a moment, he will say, and listen closely to the words “if you agree with what ‘I’ say, you will have eternal life” – and they ‘he’ welcomes the people into the kingdom — scary the similarity.

  39. Michael says:

    “Shunning is a word that has a specific meaning. I don’t think you could back that up, and even if there are some examples out there (as I am sure someone annonymously will share with us) – to say that is the practice of the “many” is an exaggeration. ”

    I’m not anonymous and I’ll testify loudly that not only did I experience this, it was standard operating position in the valley.
    We also have literally hundreds of people who will testify to the same from their CC.

    Sadly, the only group that gives CC a run for the money on this are my Reformed brethren…

  40. Erunner says:

    The cover story on Christianity Today has to do with the explosion of the church in India. So far I have not read about any impact GFA has had.

    I’d like to hear from Kevin H. or anyone else regarding what is happening there. It seems quite amazing.

  41. brian says:

    I have gone to several churches and really enjoyed the people and cared about them. I am sad that my world view and theirs do not really agree now but I do still care for them and I am in contact with them. It took several decades but I have reconciled with all those that I have had issues with. So many of those stories I shared here are starting to heal if that makes sense. I thank Michael and all of you for your care to me these many years.

    Pastor Steve we do not see eye on much but I think you do the very best you can for the people who pastor. I hope everyone has a nice Thanks Giving.

  42. Kevin H says:

    E,

    I’ve got nothing for you in regards to GFA in India. I’m not one who digs up this info. I only write about what I have learned from what others have uncovered. And I don’t really know much about GFA’s impact in India. My guess would be that they have had some positive impact (while they would hide the negatives). And whatever positive impact they have had, the reality would probably be much lesser than whatever GFA would claim. This is my best guess as to the situation.

  43. pstrmike says:

    thanks brian,
    Happy Thanksgiving to you as well.

  44. Steve Wright says:

    Secondly, an important distinction is that churches and therefore pastors are a part of the Network. I can leave my church and they can stay within the Network.
    ——————————————————————–
    No small thing. When the prior pastor stepped down and asked me to become the Sr. Pastor of our CC which was 25 years old, with the unanimous consent of the Board and our elders, with the clear vocal support of the congregation – me, a guy who was ordained by Chuck Smith in Costa Mesa ten years before, who had graduated the School of Ministry of Costa Mesa, served in a variety of ministries at CCCM, had later secured an MDiv, who had multiple referrals from others at CCCM and in the CC movement, one would think it would be as simple with the “home office” as updating the website.

    Nope. Despite pastoring fulltime a pretty large church, while working fulltime so I did not receive any salary at the time, raising two children, including one newborn, it was required that I read several books, write book reports, fill out surveys about my understanding of the Trinity, inspiration and so forth. In fact, if I had not been able to show I was a graduate of the School of Ministry and had already done so, I would have had to listen to every Chuck tape from Genesis to Revelation before our church could continue to be called a Calvary Chapel.

    Ponder that bureaucracy for a moment if you will. Compare that to how things were in the early years of CC church planting.

    I actually got a “welcome to the family” letter when I had finished jumping through all the hoops. After 10 years of ordination by Chuck himself and 15 years in the movement (my entire Christian life), all those years of service, I was NOW in the family.

    That is exactly the sort of thing we were told at the start of CCA was going to end (I was at the meeting), and it sounds like what Brian is imagining now. I do not know what CCA is imagining but I assume it looks a little more like my old experience…I hope I am wrong

  45. Erunner says:

    Thanks Kevin. Maybe there will be more information later on. Have a happy Thanksgiving!

  46. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Well I do find this telling over at the CC Global Network page;
    “For those that would like to join the network, please review our Statement of Faith here. If you are in agreement with our doctrinal positions we invite you to add your personal and church information to our database here.”

    But when we as Lutherans make the exact same claim for coming to the Lord’s Table, we get labeled exclusionary and bigoted.

    At CCGN there is more protection to keep the network from being defaced than there is in respect to the Lord’s Table.

  47. Steve Wright says:

    Yes, MLD, you guys do a good job of protecting the Lord’s Table from the rest of the Body of Christ.

    And sure, that is “the exact same claim” as how local churches choose to partner with each other for kingdom work…if you say so.

    Meanwhile, Brian writes “During our conferences, we will not only hear from many encouraging voices from within the Calvary Chapel family, but will also have the opportunity to be blessed by others from a variety of different evangelical backgrounds. Over the years, I’ve experienced the value of having other voices than our own speaking to us”

    Yep, quite the exclusionary bigot he is….(sarc)

  48. “…If you are in agreement with our doctrinal positions…” come join us.

    Who said this? me inviting folks to the Table or Brian inviting people to join his group?

    “but will also have the opportunity to be blessed by others from a variety of different evangelical backgrounds.” – Brian will let you hear from then, but they will not be allowed in Brian’s group if they cannot sign on the dotted line to Brian’s statement of faith.

    Just think, Lutherans are forbidden to be in the CCGN – we must not be Christians.

  49. Anon Jon says:

    So I guess when Brian B uses the words “more organic” it possibly means “ambiguous?”

    None of this CC split stuff is making much sense to me other than a bunch of guys pole positioning for power, authority and the cash cow and Brian hanging in there at the top of that hill.

    “See we are not like those guys, we don’t have control, but we have an associated hub you can be a part of or not be a part of.”

    When I think it through I get this conclusion…

    Nice and simple, “Organic.”

    Characteristics of an organism is that there is always growth and room for growth like a living plant, I like it I think.

    CC is not set in stone like some would like it to be, we are open for changes and growth in new directions, seems to be the thought being expressed by Brian.

    That has got to scare some old timers I would think over there in traditional CC circles.

    I get a mental picture of the CC wagons circled and CC Indians riding around them shooting arrows.

    A House Divided.

    And we all know what the Biblical stance is on such things…

    …24If a kingdom is divided against itself, it cannot stand. 25If a house is divided against itself, it cannot stand.

    Mark 3:24,25

    If Biblical truth is to be believed what can we expect in the future of CC?

  50. Just One Calvary Guy says:

    A few of things about Brian B. and his video, and letter regarding CCGN.

    1. When he says (with emphasis) “we are Calvary Chapel” -he’s only partly right. It’s kind of like when politicians talk about “American values” -what they mean is “their” American values, not necessarily the “historic” or “commonly held” American values. Calvary Chapel is much bigger than CCCM and Brian’s personal ministry/vision, it’s an existing body of some 1700 churches with much variation of method and personality, holding to a handful of common distinctives theologically. Brian is A Calvary Chapel pastor of A Calvary Chapel church.

    2. When he talks about “freedom” in the context of ministry, he uses scripture taken entirely out of context. The freedom/liberty that the N.T. espouses, is not freedom to do whatever you want. In fact, the apostles espoused a freedom that constrained them to serve the Lord in love and cooperation, not independence. It’s almost like he’s saying “I am free to be me.”

    3. The direction of “one man in charge” of mission, messaging, and material is unfortunate. What many pastors in CC really wished to see is greater accountability and greater cooperation rather than less.

    4. The listing of ministry assets is really disturbing. It means nothing.

  51. Steve Wright says:

    First of all, for anyone who feared Chuck, he is dead now. I wish people would post under their real names. I just got a private message from a longtime Calvary guy serving on another continent because he read my comments on this blog – and I had attached my name to them.

    I agree with #1, but do not see a dime’s worth of difference between a small group of unaccountable old time pastors meeting in secret, changing the makeup of their council (again in secret) and telling the rest of us 1700 churches how the future is going to look.

    I agree with #2 but don’t see the relevance. Freedom to pastor one’s church as the Lord leads is foundational to Calvary Chapel. Nowhere does Brian express a “do whatever you want” attitude and he points to a basic statement of faith that we (in Calvary) all agree to.

    As to #3, the last thing I see is Brian saying “I am in charge” – and to refer to my comment on #1, the CCA lobbed this first volley and if one is disturbed by Brian’s tone I do not see how one can’t be disturbed by the CCA’s tone – unless of course one is picking sides.

    As to #4, not disturbing, but clarifying, considering the CCA advertises the Bible College in Murrieta as the Main Campus of the movement with link to the school which of course shows Brian as President. This only “means nothing” because it seems Brian has no intention of playing hardball with the assets that his local church happens to own.

    FWIW – Some of us have been in positions of just wanting to serve the Lord through our local church and we get poked, and poked and finally we come back…hard. Not out of anger but out of what is true and righteous and Christ worthy.

    I don’t think we should forget that this controversy, the newly formed CCGN and all the rest is the result of the actions of the CCA that was itching for a fight because of some off the cuff remarks at some conference that were pounced on as the trigger.

  52. Steve Wright says:

    And with that I’m off for Thanksgiving. That’s my last word on this unless some tremendous breaking news hits….last word here or in private (through emails).

  53. Jean says:

    Happy Thanksgiving Steve!

  54. dusty says:

    I stand with Michael on the shunning issue!

    But since I post anonymously i dont count….that same old line sigh

  55. pstrmike says:

    Steve,
    Principles over personalities my friend. I was advised that it was good practice to keep your real name off of blogs. And you know who I am, and some others (who now deny reading here ) do too.

    JOCG,
    When BB says “We are Calvary Chapel”, he is absolutely correct. He is just not exclusive to that title, and that statement can render different descriptions and definitions.

  56. olivia says:

    I may be off but……..

    BB didn’t seem to have a strong vision of the direction “he”, wants to go in, he sounded unsure of himself and the other guy seemed to be looking at him like…….do you even know what your doing?

    I could be projecting since I dislike cc for so many reasons

  57. Surfer51 says:

    The Priest

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8UONOh9VmPM

    Blessed Thanks Giving To All!

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