Dec 182016
 

Calvary Chapel Boise pastor Tucker Maile announced that former pastor and former Calvary Chapel Association member Bob Caldwell confessed to adultery two weeks ago.

The audio of that announcement can be found here

  414 Responses to “Calvary Chapel Boise Announces Caldwell Confession to Adultery”

  1. *facepalm*

    So he confessed to it two weeks ago. So either he hid it and lied about it when he stepped down from pastoral ministry and the CCA….or he stepped down for other reasons.

    I see no connections between the two yet. Hopefully the forthcoming statement will settle it.

  2. According to the statement he hid it…

  3. Another one bites the dust. So sad. Another reminder that this could be any of us.

  4. I don’t understand why it’s seemingly so difficult for people to not commit adultery.

  5. I am saddened and sorry to read this. While many will be angry, I assure you there is much weeping and anguish behind the scenes. Another family trashed. Needless tragedy.

  6. Two families trashed…

  7. I will never understand how a man can give up so much for so little. He gives up his reputation, the respect of those who admired him, hurts those same, smears the name of his Lord amongst the world as they view this conduct as just one more hypocrite who does not practice what he preaches, and it could cost him his family… all for what? A few moments or nights of fleeting pleasure?
    Sad.

  8. And when I think about it.. what makes it even worse is the lying. He stated he was leaving the pastorate because basically God has a new call on his life… missionary work. So off he went doing missions work like nothing had happened, in effect working to stumble even more people, those he touched in his mission work who may now find out as young believers that they missionary they held in esteem was a lying adulterer. SMH…

  9. You know what? It’s our human nature to hide sin. Adam and Eve did it, and we still do. It’s also our human nature to blame others for our sins. We so need the Lord.

    It’s a sad thing, and it’s doubly sad that children and a congregation are involved.

    I still say pray…pray that his wife and children can move beyond this and grow in their relationship with the Lord, pray that they be restored and that their faith does not suffer, pray that he repents, pray that new believers in the congregation are not put off from the church. Pray that the Lord prevails in all…

  10. “Pray that the Lord prevails in all…” yes, amen…
    and He will do so where hearts turn to Him – pray that no one who names the name of Jesus Christ finds themselves gloating over this shameful self indulgence – no matter how we might try to analyze and tweek this sort of thing, in the end the sin is putting oneself (or another human) above the God Who has shown such love and grace to us

  11. When are people going to realize that there is only one kind of Christian: the sinner kind. When people realize that, they set up institutions with checks and balances, accountability and policies appropriate for the office.

  12. My great fear is that all of these situations coming out are only the tip of a very large iceberg. The cover up of this kind of sin was sanctioned for decades by no less than Chuck Smith (who also was said to have committed this sin). It permeated the culture and has always been there. The truth of its depth is simply coming out now. Perhaps the painful fallout which is now more public due to the blogosphere will finally be the incentive to deal with it. It could be God himself that is forcing all of this into the light. God loves us but is constrained in the face of unconfessed sin in the camp. James says that pastors will be judged more severely so it is Scripture that one would quarrel with as to why their sin is different. Indeed, if unchecked sin by the leaders has left the sheep uncared for or abused, God will not allow it forever. He loves His church. If Biblical history is a good indicator of what is to come, He will allow time for the remaining guilty pastors to repent and remove themselves. If they do not He will expose them. It is a fearful thing to mess with God’s church. That’s why there is a warning for “not many to become teachers”.

  13. VERY good point Jean!

  14. Jean. I love your point.

    Having said that, why is it that Paul laid out the guidelines for pastors in the Pastoral Epistles? You know the ones; having one wife, being sober, ect…?

    We are not bad people made good. We were dead people made alive. Lost people that are saved. Yet….

    Those pastoral guidelines are still there. Right?

  15. Why the shock he hid it or anyone of “the church” does, for what is most paramount as has been proven for decades now is appearances.
    Men/women do not have safe places in which to confess and/or ask for help, instead pretending is the the 11th commandment. Pretend “we” do it “right” (pun intended), “we” the closest to Jesus’ heart, etc.
    Obviously we don’t know “the whole story,” but I’d bet Bob found himself in a place of absolute holiness or despair and it was for that he sought comfort elsewhere.
    Men and women may commit adultery for different reasons, but the underlying reasons are the same and its a shame, eventually upon Jesus Himself, we continue to refuse each other concern and care.
    THIS is the main reason why I so despise the Caesar-model of church government, it sentences another sinner whom I’m supposed to love as a brother to abject solitude and self-dependency, robbing him of love and care that rest of us may take advantage.
    I have never hated anyone like this so I will continue to hope/pray men will be released from this prison of their pride.
    By the way, I’m not absolving Bob of any wrong or blaming anyone else, just resisting the fad of deflecting from seeing the whole picture. Having a burn-Bob-at-the-stake party is what is usually done and continue to ignore what this and so many similar situations share.
    To do anything other is to force all of us to stop tending our sacred cows.
    The very foundations of this “movement” are finally shows to be cracked, and continue to crack. Obviously all other works of God have been attacked, but so few are so completely unable, unwilling, and so blind to their own state as this.

  16. Yes Costco, absolutely the qualifications of 1 Tim are still applicable. My point was that if your starting point is that the pastor is every bit as human and fallible as the laity, then how might you protect him, his family and the laity from the temptation of infidelity?

  17. “Those pastoral guidelines are still there. Right?”

    Yes, but no one pays attention to them – unless they are written down directly in the churches by laws. Then they become a contract, or placed right it the pastor’s employee contract.

    Whne was the last time you saw a pastor resign, or the board kick him out because his kids were rebellious – or any of his children not believers?

  18. So Bob resigns and lies about why he stepped down almost a year ago, and today someone other than Bob informs the church why he really stepped down? Bob doesn’t bother to tell the people that love him and paid his salary what he did? This whole thing stinks.

  19. #11.

    Jean, you are EXACTLY Right!!!

  20. MLD. I was a rotten kid in elementary school. Glad my dad didn’t get fired for that!

  21. #18:

    Yeah..I thought the same exact thing. What the heck?? Waited almost a YEAR and had SOMEONE ELSE tell everyone?

    So, where is he now? He needs to step down from ANY leadership position…even “focusing on missionary work.”

  22. Question:

    So, why doesn’t anyone talk about the second person involved in this fiasco? If he’s publically shames, why not her (or God forbid: him) too?

  23. Jean. Good question. Knowing he is as fallible or prone to temptation as his congregation is a good foundation to build on.

  24. My opinion, Stephen, is to cool your jets on publically shaming her!

  25. Costco – but he should have right?

    What if a pastor has a kid in jail – should he be kicked out of his pastorate?

  26. There are many reasons behind the scenes why folks can commit adultery.

    The marriage partners can drift apart and become emotionally vacant towards one another.

    No longer experiencing Bride and Groom love for one another.

    Leaving them susceptible to enticement for someone outside the inner circle of marriage that “understands me” or who “truly cares about me,” the reasons are many and varied.

    Bottom line is they slip and fall down.

    They become numb and unresponsive to the reality of the situation for a season or so.

    But the Holy Spirit never gives up on them.

    He has been called the “hound of heaven” by some because of His unrelenting pursuit.

    He chases after us in love with the intent of overtaking us and causing us to open our eyes and repent.

    He brings conviction of sin.

    But prior to this there is always the attempt to hide our sin to save face.

    As someone stated, it could be anyone of us.

    We are all flesh and very capable of moral failures.

    Bob Caldwell fell as has many others and as many others will.

    None of us is perfect.

    We have mercy and grace extended towards him in our hearts with the knowledge that if he is truly one of God’s kids, he will respond to the Holy Spirit and repent.

    None the less we know that he is in good hands as are we.

    The Holy Spirit’s loving presence, bringing to us what we truly need in each and every circumstance of our lives.

    We shout GRACE to the man of God!

    We say to him, stand up and be strong in the Lord Jesus Christ and finish the race set before you well!

    Setting aside each and ever encumbrance.

    Turning our backs to sin and rebellion to serve the Lord in righteousness for the remainder of our days.

    O how we praise God the eternal One Whom we love and serve.

  27. Costco:

    Why? Why is it that only one of the two offending parties has to be publicly known? How is it fair that one goes “free to possibly continue sinning?”

    (I’m not being argumentative, nor trying to be aggressive. It is a tragic situation all around…people hurt, families devastated….but to have one secretly among the flock possibly seeking another one to bring down…it just doesn’t seem right nor fair).

  28. Stephen,
    In some states this type of affair is not only immoral, but illegal as it may constitute the abuse of authority and the use of manipulation in counseling situations.
    I do not know the particulars here, only stating the possibility.
    The office of the pastor must be protected from all disqualification and the church made aware of it.
    The sin of the other can and should be dealt with privately.

  29. Michael (and everyone)

    Please don’t misunderstand me…I am fully aware of the importance of being moral and blameless when it comes to he offices of pastor or leadership in the Body of Christ….and I do agree with the necessity of protecting the office and NOT HIDING when there is disqualification.

    Yet, I still question the practice of keeping the anymonity of the other party (parties). I see the mercy in doing so, of course…and the grace given to the family by not doing so…but I can’t shake the belief that it takes two (or more) to tango, and everyone has an accountability.

    How is that not “hiding” part of the truth?

    I think we’ve all heard stories of “that person” in the congregation who has a “problem” of causing pastors to fall.

    (Sometimes I I think faster than I type and skip points just to finish the post, lol).

  30. stephen,

    The reason Costco might have in mind is that the relationship of pastor and a lay woman is not one of equals. There is a shepherd-sheep relationship. The pastor is in authority over the lay woman. It could be expressed as abuse of power. I would not over generalize, not knowing the facts, but my default reading is that the pastor uses his position to victimize the woman. There could be exceptions.

  31. Stephen wants to know why the woman is not “publicly shamed”… First of all the Pastor is the one in a position of authority. Supposed called out and set apart by the Lord for the responsibility of leading. He is held to a stricter judgment. Secondly he is a man, and the woman is the weaker vessel. The man is supposed to be the protector of the woman and as a man, pastor and brother in the Lord he should not be leading or going along with the woman in sin. The teaching I sat under at CC always taught that ultimately the man bore the heavier burden of fault because he is the leader, and the leader of his home.

  32. In the case of the pastor using his position to victimize the woman (abuse of position and authority), I more than heartily agree.

    I admit that I did not consider that aspect of the range of possibilities. For some reason, that scenario didn’t occur to me when I was considering the topic. Call me naive, I guess.

    However:

    If he was seduced or she was “one of those” who targeted him for a fall…Or, if they were equally “at fault” or “willing,”….why would it be oappropriate to continue to protect the other person/people?

  33. Do we know it was a woman in the church? Perhaps it was a friend of a 3rd cousin. If so then does that remove the shepherd / sheep disclaimer?

    Was the announcement published anywhere? I didn’t see it so I don’t know what was said. Anyone???

  34. stephen,

    Regarding your second question, the purpose of announcing the nature of this pastor’s resignation was in the discernment of the elders the right thing to do possibly to quell gossip or properly explain his resignation to the people who paid his salary. I don’t really know.

    But, you don’t just publish people’s sins for the heck of it. So when it comes to the woman, you first need to ask, what public interest is there in identifying the woman? What good for her and/or the congregation could come out of a public identification. What steps have been taken to address her side of the sin? Was she repentant? We just don’t know.

    So, our first impulse should not be to out people just for the sake of identifying the counterpart to the pastor’s infidelity.

  35. MLD, since you asked, having a rowdy elementary age kid in school is not grounds for being defrocked. Now if it were to go into Junior High, then…. 😉

  36. Out of curiosity could there be legal issues if the person a pastor committed adultery with was named and shamed. A pastor is a public person and there is a legitimate reason his adultery is made publicly know to his congregation. However if the person he committed adultery with is a private person who does not occupy any place of authority or influence within the church would they have any sort of legal claim to not be harassed or by church members “exposing” their sin and doing who knows what?

  37. I know there are cases where people have sued churches that tried to enact church discipline against them. Wouldn’t a church be setting itself up for that sort of thing by naming and shaming the private person a pastor committed adultery with?

  38. The announcement has not been published yet.
    J2, I do think there could be legal issues in the cases you mention.

  39. Lots of armchair quarterbacks here. It all looks pretty different when it’s your life.

    I can say from personal experience that the depth and complexity of a situation like this and the on going fallout is indescribable. It is unrecoverable. Yes, really. The damage is incalculable, and permanent. As Charles Swindoll aptly said, ‘ it only takes one pin to burst a balloon’. The damage is life changing, multi leveled and massive in many lives, as if a nuclear bomb went off. No one’s life will ever be the same. Forgiven, yes, Restored? Maybe, but not like it was before. Ever.

    Little children, guard your hearts…

  40. I am a member of that church. The statement came as a shock initially and I cried. I didn’t cry because I feel Bob somehow didn’t live up to my expectation or let me down in anyway because to be honest my overall view of humanity is pretty low. The fact that a pastor, husband, father, mentor can carry on a secret affair hardly cases me to bat an eye. I cried because the enemy successfully wooed and deceived another one of us. “Still, kill, and destroy” that’s the name of the game. Bob didn’t take the opportunities to take the exits God made available to him. For whatever reason he didn’t go to a brother in the Lord and talk about his temptations. Was it because he didn’t have anyone to talk to? Did he have an accountability partner?

    I ache because I know him and his family are aching. In time God will heal and renew but now we mourn.

  41. the one thing that has me puzzling as i read tonight is, what is/are the responsibilities of the women of a congregation?
    why couldn’t/shouldn’t one or two of the ladies in the church meet with one of their sex who seems to be getting a bit too close to the pastor? why aren’t we expected to be concerned with the conduct of our sisters? couldn’t the situation possibly have been defused, if suspected?

    now, there is the possibility that this “home wrecker” and ministry destroyer was someone outside of the church and unknown to the congregation… but…

    i once knew of a man who was developing a way too cozy relationship for a married man to engage in outside his family… the wife’s sister in Christ said, “come on we’re going to pay that lady a visit” – answering the knock on her door the “other woman” faced two stern, but friendly women who made it very clear that the jig was up and there’d be consequences, if things progressed any further… 🙂 do we ladies tend to keep our suspicions to ourselves (the concerned gossip thing) thinking we’re just being polite and “nonjudgemental?” if we do and things go south, do we bare any guilt? … just a ponder, not a conclusion…

  42. We all need to have Jesus as our accountability partner.

  43. John 20:29, when my late ex husband, pastor of a large CC, was involved with a woman at our former church, several women (who knew about the affair long before I or leadership did) tried speaking to the adulteress, to no avail.

    Honestly, it is the Holy Spirit that ‘convicts of sin”…. and when people deceived by lust are so deeply into the situation of their own making, they have deliberately chosen to reject the influence of the Holy Spirit. No human intervention made a difference in my ex husband’s situation. To this day, his mistress feels she has done no wrong. Proverbs has much to say about women like that.

  44. JD, Jesus will hold us accountable, but not as a partner. 🙂

  45. Well said, Jean. We need fellow brothers and sisters to partner with us so we can confess our sins to one another but even before that, we need our brothers and sisters to confess our temptations to before they develop into sin.
    A man isolated from accountability is a liability.

  46. Just my own opinion…

    Why should the other than Pastor adulterer be exposed and shamed?

    First of all they shamed themselves. Exposing does not shame unless shame occurred. Exposing is simply making the truth be known. (lying is not exposing).

    Secondly what can possibly be wrong with “exposing” the truth. Until you know who the other person is, you have no right to consider them as a “weak” woman. It could be a strong, or powerful, or highly church positioned woman (Sunday school teacher). In fact as far as that goes if the other person is not known, in today’s world, the other adulterous could also have been a man.

    Those informed of the pastor’s sin deserve to know the FULL truth, or NONE of it.

    Not exposing full truth is the breeding ground of lies and deception..and in fact encourages it.

    Again, just my opinion.

  47. Paul, I want to know who the woman (or man) is. I want the full story. I found this thread while searching online for the details about this. I hope they do disclose to us who it is. Maybe the local media will fish it out. They surle got into Saeed and Naghmeh Abedini’s business in a quick hurry. I’d prefer to hear it from the church. Perhaps in the Lords mercy He will keep the details hidden. If that’s the case then I just have to accept it.

  48. Tam,

    I agree with you. I will go one step further and say if the other person is weak, telling who she/he is can let other church members know who to help if needed.

  49. It seems to me like needing to know who the woman is, is much like rubbernecking while passing a horrible car accident.

  50. Paul,
    The leadership has chosen to deal graciously with her. In his statement Tucker urged people the leave BOTH families alone for the time being. I got the impression that he knew some people in the congregation already know who it is. I guess I’m just not privy to the information.

  51. Good Lord…let me be clear.
    This was a woman, not a man.

  52. Covered,

    Maybe you’re right. I guess my feelings are coming from a place of hurt and a bit of anger.

  53. Some very well-stated comments here. Paige is right. It is a nuclear bomb that flattens a wide swath of humanity. If I may, Paige, I offer belated, but deep condolences to you and others who have been victims of this particularly devastating sin. It has struck many in my family even post confession of Christ with many influenced by the lax advice given to them in their respective CC’s. Some have never recovered. Pre-Christ, some in my family were so wounded through the heart with this sin that there were suicides. I was present when one of my family was being carried out in a body bag by the coroner. I was only 12. This is a very serious, very hurtful thing to do to another human being. The perpetrators need to come face to face with what they have done. True repentance would mean true sorrow and public failure would demand a public apology. It appears that Caldwell may have failed at that, too. I will say again, “seek not many of you to be teachers for you will incur the stricter judgement”.

  54. Covered,

    Your # 49 can be true, but looking at a horrible car accident when you see a car you recognize too see if it involves someone you know that you can help is not rubbernecking.

  55. JM,

    In the statement Tucker said Bob will publicly address this but him and his family needed some time.

  56. Do we, the blog readers of the world, have a ‘right’ to know more than what we already do?

    Tan Mal wants to know everything and suggests the media (I would assume this includes investigative bloggers) – root it out. But if the Boise board says we have handled it and wish to respect the privacys of the parties and families – do we respect that?

  57. Paul Lytton, it’s basically impossible for a woman to be “powerful” in a Calvary Chapel or hold any sort of authority. Even teaching Sunday School–particularly in a church that has it during the sermon so those obnoxious little kids won’t brother the adults–does not inherently imply the person has any particular standing within the church.

  58. I understand Paul. My point is that sometimes needing to know just how bloody and messy things are, usually doesn’t help. For the record, I have been known to rubberneck myself. I just don’t see how knowing who the woman is at this point helps anyone. I think that I would want to know just how much the leadership knows and when did they learned of Bob’s failings. The woman will be found out in due time. For some reason, it really bothers me how this thing was handled from the beginning. I hope that we don’t learn that other’s knew and for some reason, decided to protect Bob or the congregation “for the greater good…”

  59. “But if the Boise board says we have handled it and wish to respect the privacys of the parties and families – do we respect that?”

    Based on the way they have handled this…yes.

  60. Martin,
    I guess we should respect that.

  61. I am totally unaware of the Boise board, but familiar with other CC boards that consider “handling” the situation as supporting their boss, the Pastor. I apologize.

  62. May I add, that telling the church body the entire truth, including the name of the adulteress, is a way of protecting everyone, particularly the offended spouses. One would hope that a church body would stand with the victims and not make excuses for the pastor.

    My former church chose to not tell the congregation what happened for a full two years after my ex was fired. The people loved their pastor, and found it unfathomable to believe he was capable of doing something so wrong. The great majority decided on their own that it was my fault.

    Equipping a church congregation with the whole story relieves them from speculation. It is devastating to learn that someone you’ve loved trusted to teach you the Scriptures and represent the Holy Spirit has violated a sacred covenant and lied about it for a long time.
    It is very much a betrayal to the church as well.

    Thank you JM. It’s been 17 years. The ordeal broke my life and shattered my offsprings’ faith.

  63. At the risk of turning this into a CC, Pastor bashing thread (which I don’t want to do) but, I think that Paige’s experience is probably more typical of how this horrendous sin is handled. In fact, how many times have we seen the pastor be protected by those at the helm of the mother ship in Costa Mesa in the past? I’m not suggesting that only CC handles this issue with leniency because we know that isn’t the case. The whole situation stinks. Again, I am sorry Paige for how you were abused and how your kids had to experience such a terrible atrocity.

  64. Paige, I am in agreement with you as to how to handle this — and the other woman. Unfortunately, I have also seen the victim blamed for the indiscretions of the husband and the incredible pain it causes. She is put on trial by those that committed idolatry of the pastor, though she had no control over any of it. It is like being pummeled and betrayed all over again. I have also seen faith lost by those affected–especially children. They simply don’t believe that God could exist and allow such a thing. That is another fruit of this sin. Again, this is a very serious offense and needs to be cared for to stop the church at large from “bleeding out”. It is a credit to the Lord’s mercies and perseverance in your own faith that you can handle the issues so well at this point, Paige. I pray that God will continue to restore all that has been taken away, continue to send healing to your children and continue to send minister health to your body because of the awful toll it surely took. God bless you for not giving up.

    Tam Nal – Thank you for sharing that information about Bob.

  65. Yes Michael, 2 families trashed.

    Of all the adultery cases in CC, this is the only one that has ever really surprised me. Most of the others reeked with avarice. Bob came across so spiritual. One of the best pastor’s conference I ever attended was a one day event led by Bob. But I’m reminded that spiritual and godly are not always the same thing. Spirituality is mainly about desire, and the longing is either holy or carnal. Sometimes those lines cross.

    Rattle and Hum

  66. Love covers a multitude of sins.

    No one here needs to know the details of any of this.

  67. @39 thanks Paige……………

  68. My heart is heavy hearing all this, but to be honest it’s not against Bob or the mistress. I’ve known Bob and his family for many years and I love them all, this is sad news and it’s sad for all the obvious reasons. But let me be clear, I’m not angry at all. This is what Jesus died for and anyone who enjoys that grace is under the same grace that Bob is receiving now if he is indeed in a repentant place.

    Respectfully, it seems that handling “it” as the Elders have done in private, something that is blaringly public, kind of seems like we’re keeping in place the original problem… which is a lack of available accountability. In our public court system, if anyone is arrested for anything from jaywalking to murder it is reported in the papers and all the details are made available to the public, that’s how we know justice is meted out. That’s how we keep all parties including our judges and court systems accountable.

    Isn’t hiding the details the same as hiding the sin, which is also the same as hiding how it was “handled”? I’m honestly confused about this and how it is being handled. Keeping it private is my first instinct as well, but it also seems like that could be part of the problem… this really isn’t a private matter. We knew all about Clinton’s affair because of his position in office, Bob has a similar position in the public eye and the details matter in a way that affects many people’s lives and walk with the Lord and it sets an example for leadership and raises the issue of better checks and balances being in place and perhaps a little more decentralization of power. I’m not asking or ranting for details or for anyone to be hung, I’m just asking what I feel are some obvious questions. And to me at least, there is no obvious answer in keeping things private, that needs to be questioned for systematic, governing reasons. For the reason of keeping and rebuilding trust with those who go to all CC’s and especially CCBoise. As well for the purpose of practical accountability among all pastors. I don’t feel any need to deal out shame, the Holy Spirit will work on hearts in the way He chooses, I’m not asking for shame but for an appropriate level of public accountability that matches the level of Bob’s own public’ness (new word). For the purpose of building and keeping trust within the flock and for the safety of current and future leaders. And it is a sad byproduct of the sin that it will, and probably should, publicly affect the life of the mistress. I’m not sure why we would make it a safe place to be on the “other side” of an affair where only one party is held accountable when it affects such a large populace. Think of it as accountability that is equal to and matches the sin.

    Those are my thoughts, may the Lord grant us all wisdom executed in love wrapped in mercy so that the cup we use for others, when it comes back, is the kind of cup we would want for ourselves. Peace and love guys.

  69. DrawingInTheSand,

    That’s very thought provoking…you and Paige have given me much to think about.

  70. The only way it might make sense to out the other party is if she has a national platform from which she preaches, as Bob had, a pastoral/teaching ministry. Then you might, maybe, possibly consider it.
    Maybe. But the fact that the shepherd abused the sheep under his care is priority one. This woman most likely is a victim, and even if she was the pursuer, BC is still the one to blame.

    She needs grace and truth.
    Discipline from that local body, and care for her from the same.

    The woman and her family were used. That is enough damage without having to be “accountable” to the social media gossip machine. Apparently that behavior goes no further than Bob and unnamed woman. Bob has stepped down and admitted it. Is there anything more in scripture that is demanded of a pastor than this? Is there more demanded of a lay person?

    Unlike POTUS Clinton, no one voted for Bob Caldwell. No one responding here has any skin in the game at CC Boise, most likely. Many here consider CC a paragon of cruddy theology and worse doctrine, so I don’t see where people get off complaining they don’t know enough about things in a church they don’t care to grace with their presence thus ain’t their business any ol’ way.

    To those he taught, led to Christ, those who served with him in ministry at CCA and CC Boise – to God and to them he is accountable. I don’t know if the Caldwell’ s have grandkids, but this potentially harms four generations of believers directly, an entire church, and an entire community. Lets leave it at that.

  71. I’m sorry but truth should be known. He hid it. It was a very long affair and he only told his wife because someone told him they would make it public if he didn’t. Many of us are livid. This is a tragedy and I beg you to separate God from the screwed up nature of man. No one is above the snares of the enemy. Not even this man whom so many looked up to. And I need to add, that no sin is too great for grace. Keep your eyes on Jesus. Men will always fail you. Jesus won’t.

  72. We do know who the mistress is and there’s no point in blasting her. We do know many details but the ultimate goal of protecting those who will be shaken in their faith far outweighs the desire to satisfy the millions of questions.
    I’m angry and sad.
    But his sin doesn’t change the incredible spiritual growth he helped me gain while under his mentorship. I agree in transparency. But for Tucker and elders it’s a multi faceted situation. They can’t possibly answer all the questions and then the inevitable millions of follow up questions. It’s a pretty difficult situation to handle especially as a young, new pastor who was brought up by this man and discipled by him.
    Consider King David.
    Psalms 51 is Bobs favorite. I can see a King David in him. Absolutely sinful but with a heart after Gods own heart.

  73. I just can’t but hel but wonder, now, just how forthcoming BC will be when he addresses the topic….if he does, that is.

  74. There seems the need for CC Boise to strike a balance here. On one hand, there is a desire to protect both families that are undoubtedly already going through much strife, to have additional unnecessary strife being added upon them. On the other hand, there is a need to be open about enough detail and information so that it does not give the impression of shady cover-ups that then help lead to wrongful beliefs and attitudes occurring and innocent parties being suspected of wrongdoing.

  75. What could be a cover up? He has admitted to the adultery and he is out as the pastor of the church. What is to cover up at this point?

    No matter what you do or say, some folks will still be suspicious and have ” wrongful beliefs and attitudes occurring and innocent parties being suspected of wrongdoing.”

    But that is their sin – not Caldwell’s or the church leadership.

  76. MLD,

    Maybe CC Boise has already said enough. I don’t know what all they disclosed beyond what has been reported here, that Caldwell confessed to adultery a couple weeks ago. Did they address if anyone on the board or church leadership knew about this before? Did they address if it played a part or was even truly the sole reason for his previous resignation? Did they address anything in regards to supporting his missions work that he was supposedly pursuing now that this is known? Did they address if the church has accountability measures in place where they can remove the senior pastor if such a thing occurs? (Caldwell had previously resigned, he wasn’t removed.) Did they address how long the affair was going on and if there was only one affair? Did they emphasize that only Caldwell himself should be held accountable for what he did, that no measure of guilt or blame should be placed on his wife? Did they address any possible church discipline for Caldwell? Did they address how they are trying to support Caldwell and his family, most especially his wife and children? Did they address if Caldwell is still receiving financial support from the church?

    I think these are all fair and prudent things to address in order to help quell wrongful attitudes and beliefs because the congregation is just left guessing about them. Maybe CC Boise has already addressed them. But if they haven’t, they can lead to unhealthy suspicion, especially with the history of trying to hide things in Calvary Chapel.

  77. Kevin, Caldwell realized his sin and resigned. Boom!! Done. Add to your list “did he wear a condom or was he irresponsible?”

    He probably complicated his sin by lying, but at that point he is already gone. Here is the issue – everyone complains you can’t get rid of these guys once the truth comes out. What is going to be the motivation for the next guy to do the right thing if he will be trashed just like the guy who won’t?

    How much Caldwell blood do we want?

  78. ” What is going to be the motivation for the next guy to do the right thing if he will be trashed just like the guy who won’t?”

    MLD, After dealing with this issue for most of my life, I have some definite thoughts on this. If the person is a pastor and has that sort of attitude–he should have never been a pastor in the first place. There are so many Biblical disclaimers against someone becoming a pastor in the first place (“stricter judgment” in James) that he has no excuse no matter what. The other way to look at this is what the Bible also says (“that it may cause others to fear”). God sees nothing wrong with causing that fear so neither do I.

  79. JM, but if the culprit is gone – what else do you care?

    I take it that you are from the “get my pound of flesh” camp of Christianity? Not me. I come from the more forgivenitarian wing.. 😉

    If you have been dealing with this issue most of your life, may I suggest that you just let it go? Stop going to churches that seem prone to this kind of abuse.

    I agree in these churches that the pastors are not vetted very well of if at all. In the LCMS from the time they are in college they are being evaluated and vetted to their suitability to be a pastor – they even have a 1 year internship while in seminary (3rd year they are shipped off to work with a pastor who evaluates them) in the end 4th year they are evaluated by the final committee and then still face call day to see if a congregation has deemed them to be pastor material. So, stop going to the churches where perhaps someone just started their own branch – were not called by a congregation but in fact they called a congregation to themselves.

    But hey, if it’s a Lutheran church, we haze them from the beginning and make them where a dress 🙂

  80. “If the percentages hold true, 96,300–112,350 congregations in the United States are pastored by clergy with diagnosable Narcissistic Personality Disorder.”
    –https://alivingtext.com/clergy-and-narcissistic-personality-disorder-ad72f54edee9#.al8dpfwqz

  81. In light of the CCA/CCCM issues, I’m wondering if the CCA board was aware of any of this prior to yesterday. If not, nothing could be done about it. If so . . .?

  82. ” – were not called by a congregation but in fact they called a congregation to themselves.”

    MLD, I don’t see this as a Lutheran distinctive. Could this be what the Bible talks about in Acts 20:30 and drawing disciples after themselves? I like the idea of a congregation calling a pastor for this exact reason.

  83. I think some people in this discussion would demand to know who the dude was in the account of the woman caught in the act of adultery. (John 8)

  84. Um, MLD, I’m not sure why you made so many assumptions towards me, but I hope to care for them below. I am actually impressed with what you said about the Lutheran way of doing things. I pray their policies are working and producing good fruit. It speaks well of them. I actually attended a Lutheran church for awhile and had a good experience.

    As to the churches I frequented where this sin was a chronic problem—they were all CC’s (4 of them)–even many years ago. I left shortly after the Hocking Debacle because it was clear even then (1992) the problem was systemic and it was part of the culture. The pastor was placed above the Word of God. After coming out of the influence of a cult, I knew when you placed a man above Scriptural accountability things were going in a very dangerous direction. It was also clear that the genesis of the cultural immorality problem was Chuck Smith’s own sin. Only recently have more details come forth about that. As to “let it go”. Im not sure why you say that to someone you do not even know. It is hurtful. You have no idea the things I have forgiven. I had a difficult background and forgave the one who tried to kill me when I would not give up my new found faith in Christ. (They were influenced by the cult that part of my family was into.) Eventually, as was my prayer, God restored that relationship and this person came to Christ. I was with them shortly before their death and we loved each other as brethren in Christ. Early on, I was homeless because of that situation and went to CC for help. You do not want to know what happened there.

    Years later, I helped in the restoration of a family who were hit by this sin. Because of my family background, this was all too familiar. But with Christ, I believed there was hope. The CC’ites and others within the family of the husband accused her of being responsible and almost broke her. Her health was so affected that she almost died. It took years for her to feel safe again. Because God saves to the uttermost, I actually facilitated the Gospel being preached to the “other woman” as well. Since the man was a Christian and knew better, the only thing to do was to make sure the wrong Gospel, which had been exemplified by the man, was corrected. The other woman completely repented, apologized to the wife and accepted Christ. The wife then forgave her. To the credit of the other woman, she also went away and never bothered them again. To his credit, the man held on and took whatever the wife dished out for many years in hopes of restoring his relationship with both her and his God. It actually did take years, but she eventually forgave him and he has never done anything even close to that again. His love for her restored her trust and her faith–even in God. Her love for him came back in the face of what he was willing to do to restore the relationship. It healed him, gave him hope and restored his faith. That was the only time I ever saw that happen and it was because the man finally learned the blessing of sacrificial love towards his wife. Though he now has this sin in his “resume”, he is the first to speak out about the horrors of infidelity and to steer others away.

    My concern then as it is now is that God will be glorified and respected and a clear Gospel will be shown. As Scripture would prescribe, I always put responsibility where it is supposed to be and always will. A truly sorrowful individual who has committed any type of sin will rightfully mourn, call it what it is and seek to do anything they possibly can towards restoring what they have “broken”. A pastor should take responsibility for what they have done, deal openly with it and humbly accept whatever comes because no one held a gun to their head. They opened that door. The joy of being restored to fellowship with God should be their main concern–not covering up their sin–and certainly not lying. If they were truly sorry, they would also seek to protect their family at all costs because of what they have done–even if she throws him out for awhile. It is the right thing to do. There are many of us waiting to forgive when the right thing happens. I would put myself at the top of that list. Whether that happens or not is completely up to the pastor and if he is man enough to do the right thing. God will pour out His blessings to the truly contrite. I would like to see that.

  85. Darn, I had a post and it’s list.

    Anyway, I’ll try again.

    While my initial question was gearedfor discussion and out of curiosity, it was never a call for the woman in questions name. Personally, there is absolutely no reason for me to “need” to know.

    It has, however, been keeping me considering it for the past 12 hours or so…Truth be told, even while I sleep.

    My conclusion thus far:. Absolutely nothing good can come from revealing her identity publicly. In this day and age of Facebook, text messages, sbnapchats, and tweets, the likely devestation for her would be completely unloving, unmerciful, and ungracious.

    The potential for complete and utter devestation is immense…Especially if it came from within/in the Body of Christ.

    We can only imagine…

    I do hope this situation is being handled appropriately, though.

  86. JM – “A pastor should take responsibility for what they have done, deal openly with it and humbly accept whatever comes because no one held a gun to their head.”

    Didn’t he? He lost his career, his reputation and who knows what else. He is no longer the pastor of that church — and he left voluntarily for all we know.

    Look at the Bob Grenier situation – if he had left years ago, like Caldwell left, there would be no issues in Visalia like there are now. Folks don’t seem to realize, without judging motive, that Caldwell took the high road in this situation.

  87. Privacy and prayer for the families involved… there is more than enough pain to go around. As to knowing names and details… there is a big difference between accountability and voyeurism. The main issue of accountability, in my mind, rests with the board of the church for their actions or, conversely, their lack of action. For those of us who are observers, we should have the humility to understand that we only know a very little bit of the dynamic in the situation and comment (or not comment) accordingly.

  88. Those who believe that everyone’s name must be revealed, perhaps you could provide us with a list of your ten most grievous sins.

  89. Pastoral adultery is a massive problem throughout the Body of Christ and crosses denominational lines. That’s easy to look up. The anonymous interdenominational pastoral surveys that have been done are shocking.

    Adultery is also a massive problem throughout society as a whole, and many of the underlying causes of adultery are risks prevalent in pastoral ministry with other potential background issues that make adultery more likely in the general population found in pastors of certain backgrounds, with some denominations being populated with more of these pastors than others. (i.e. Living a promiscuous lifestyle for years before being born again and then entering ministry)

    As one of the few Calvarys with a written accountability plan that explains the process everyone from the Senior Pastor on down can be removed, let me say that such plans are primarily for the multitude of abuse of power issues that can arise, and not for a sin like adultery. For pastors who act like dictators in oversight of the church’s money, ministries, volunteers and congregants. Put another way, having a written accountability procedure is not going to keep a pastor from adultery. In any denomination.

    It does have value if the pastor refuses to step down, which has been a problem in some denominations. But in CC, you sometimes see adulterous pastors go start another non Calvary church down the street, you sometimes see them quickly hired on staff by a CC buddy at another church, but you do not see CC pastors in known adultery remaining at their church. If someone has an example, feel free to name it before disputing that fact.

    By known though, I mean publicly, not just among a couple people in leadership who aid in the cover-up. My position on leaders who cover-up such sins of pastoral leaders is well known around here. And for the record once more (and for new readers) I have been clear that pastoral adultery should result in immediate and permanent removal from the pastoral office.

  90. I would add that if one really wishes the restoration of families with adulterous spouses, first and foremost, then as much privacy as possible is necessary – all the more if children are involved.

    The internet is forever. An educational tool for future generations who one day can look up grandma and find out that she actually fornicated with a pastor 30 years ago.

    It may take two to tango, but like Adam and Eve, this falls on the man, the pastor with the authority, and his role as a leader. Any publicity needs to deal with that focus.

    Personally, at least in my eight years, I have never seen the push to reveal the woman on this blog as we are reading now. Maybe it is because Caldwell had more respect than the average pastor? If so, imagine his true fans and the living hell they may bring upon this “harpy” and “home wrecker” (just to select two of the more tame names I have seen when sides are chosen and the man is defended in adulterous situations)

    No. Leave her (and her possible family) be.

  91. Steve Wright,

    Speaking of Adam and Eve, the story is well documented and not covered up or hidden and the names of the guilty (both the man and woman) are there for us to read about.

    However, I tend to agree with you unless it was an exceptionally noteworthy and well known woman, she doesn’t need to be exposed. On the other hand, I can definitely think of one such women in particular who was very vocal on the blogosphere nationally about her own marital problems who had Caldwell as her pastor for years. Now I have no reason to believe this was her but my point is that if the woman we are talking about was someone “like her” that had the notoriety and publicity that she did to not reveal her name I believe would probably be another travesty of justice on a mega scale along with a huge double standard. Just something to ponder on.

  92. In the church, it must be remembered always…that we are sheep. As it says, not many mighty, not many wise. I think this is largely why we struggle to handle issues without firstly a fixation on genitals, or a distant second of alcohol use. When it comes to corporate culture, fiduciary duty, fraud, etc. we struggle in the church.

    If Bob Caldwell was a plane crash the whole situation would be dissembled by the NTSB. This is because the children of this World understand the importance of facts assembled into a timeline. In order to learn of the pilots sex life? Hardly unless it pertained to the incident.

    Here are a few random thoughts.

    -Is it important to identify the counter party? No it’s not the point at all, and it would be honorable to protect the person’s future. But that also means those with oversight of the Church understand the difference from a victim seduced by a pastor, from an individual hunting for christian men. My community tolerated a known troller for decades. My Mama told me she murdered her husband in order to begin trolling. She then destroyed one church that tolerated her.

    -Handling the matter privately. Hell no! In making as much information public as possible, people may recall events where additional issues took place. People likely saw things over the years. It is pertinent information when attempting to reconstruct a timeline of events. Chances are, smoke and flame where first seen, several years after individuals noticed the fire alarm began to go off continually.

    -Protection of innocent parties. When an incident occurs, sheep naturally stampede. This may very likely include trampling, isolating, or shunning of spouses. It makes sense. If spouses faces can just be erased from our thoughts, we feel better about ourselves, and everything. Problem? What problem?

    This is a definite area where the genital fixation is an impediment. What if an incident wasn’t sex, but instead the pastor assaulted his wife, or made her life a hell? Can a church identify a popular pastor needs to be rejected? Or will the wife be shunned?

    -What did the Board know, and when. This does not mean the Board was covering up to be at fault. But there should be questions of the Board’s ability to read and detect emerging problems. Is the Board a bunch of children that can be fooled? If so, why?

  93. MLD, I will say one more thing and then, because of constraints at my end, I will have to leave it at that. I may not be where I can post for awhile. I hope you are right and Bob has taken the high road. I will believe it when Caldwell confesses this sin openly to his former church, and asks them for their forgiveness for marring the witness of Christ and covering this up for so long. The fact that so many in that church are only finding out about it now is not a good sign and is suffering that he brought upon himself because of the delay. Worse, it extended the time frame for the pain and delayed the healing process for his family and his church. I agree with others in that the family should be protected at all costs. I hope Caldwell sees that they are protected and I hope he makes it right with his church as soon as he can. Lastly, I hope he has the courage to speak out to other CC pastors and warn them about the devastation this sin causes…for years and years and years.

    I believe this and similar incidents being exposed are actually a result of many of our prayers. If people were praying for CC, and wanted God to come and do a work there again–then the house had to be cleaned first. This may be only the beginning of the “house cleaning” and it is long overdue.

  94. So, a local megachurch (Calvary Chapel Boise) just had their celebrity pastor Bob Caldwell confess to adultery which, is why he recently quit apparently. I don’t know the guy, never went there, never met him.

    Don’t be shocked. The system is broken.

    The absolute awfulness of how churches elevate men to near godhood is one of hundreds of reasons why we opted out of church. When you place a person in the spotlight and make them a “celebrity Christian” this is the shit that happens and will always happen.
    What’d they expect? It happens all over the place, all the time. Unfortunately, it’s not even 1% shocking. If it’s not adultery, it’s embezzlement. If it’s not that it’s spiritual abuse. If it’s not that, it’s child abuse.

    People all over the America have set up a faith-based social club system that is literally nowhere to be found in the Bible.

    One man in charge of everyone? Nowhere. Government regulated faith communities? Nowhere. Pre-fabricated experiences with rock concerts for Jesus? Nowhere.
    So, stop being shocked.

    When people are told they “have to” participate in a system like this instead of following what’s prescribed in the Bible (i.e. real life community) and you put one guy in charge of the whole show, expect it.

    This guy, who stood in front of thousands of people telling them how to live and what to think- this guy was PUTTING HIS PENIS INTO OTHER MEN’S WIVES IN THE NAME OF JESUS.

    But, somehow, mark my words, he’ll be considered a victim. He was really a predator (using his position to lure women in) but he’ll be painted as a victim. This is what churches do and it’s damnable.

    It’s disgusting.

    Unplug from the Matrix. The RIDICULOUS focus on buildings, budgets, and bigshots is sucking the life out of you.

    You don’t need someone telling you what to think and how to live. You need to dig into the Bible for yourself and figure it out. You also need to maintain and cultivate relationships in real life (not just on Wednesdays and Sundays) with people who will encourage you, admonish you, and spur you on to be better (see Hebrews 10:24-25).

    **Real life community.** Not the bullshit you see at most churches.

    No one man or person can do that for you. A talking head every Sunday can’t do that for you. You need God AND his people. You need real relationships with real people that happen in real life.

    Not church.

    Jesus said: “Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me.”

    Paul told the early Christians in Corinth: “Brothers and sisters, I could not address you as people who live by the Spirit but as people who are still worldly—mere infants in Christ. I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for it. Indeed, you are still not ready. You are still worldly. For since there is jealousy and quarreling among you, are you not worldly? Are you not acting like mere humans? For when one says, “I follow Paul,” and another, “I follow Apollos,” are you not mere human beings?”

    Stop following men.

    Men will fail you.

    Stop relying on “a really good sermon” to make you somehow magically make you a better person. It won’t. Only God can do that. Stop drinking milk (i.e. breast milk is simply pre-digested food, a sermon- think about it) and dig in for yourself.

    No man can save you.

    No man can change the state your soul is in.

    Only God can do that.

  95. Blentil,
    I hate it when posts like yours makes me defend the CC system. It makes my toes curl.
    “When people are told they “have to” participate in a system like this instead of following what’s prescribed in the Bible (i.e. real life community) and you put one guy in charge of the whole show, expect it.”

    Who is telling who (or is it whom?) that they “have to” participate in a system like this…”? I don’t see anyone holding a gun to anyone’s head. My contention is that the pewsters are just as guilty as the pastors in this train-wreck – co dependent – the pewsters have a great need to be controlled and the pastor’s accommodate them.

    Then you say; “No man can save you. No man can change the state your soul is in. Only God can do that.” Where do you find the opposite of this being taught?

  96. Hey, I don’t see the pastor’s actions / behavior as abusive as much as I see control issues elsewhere. Image the abuse caused when a church closes it’s doors on Christmas Sunday.

    The real Replacement Theology of substitution – changing the Lord’s Day into Family Day. Yikes!!!

    It’s so funny when you see the Christmas protests of “Put Christ back into Christmas” – while at the same time removing the Mass from Christmas.

  97. Some people expect too much out of their local congregation and its pastor.

    There was a gentleman who used to have a fantastic podcast on Ancient Faith Radio. He was a zealous convert from some form of evangelicalism and he was very good at explaining the differences between Them and Us. Then he disappeared for a few years, no explanation given except vague hints in the Orthosphere that he was upset about something and left the Church. Good grief, this man was my hero! What terrible thing had he discovered?

    Recently, he posted an explanatory podcast. He, like many converts came to Orthodoxy by means of reading books that were much to hard for him and hanging out on Orthodox discussion forums. When he joined his local parish he expected the leadership to be an amalgam of Basil/ Chrysostom/ Gregory and the people to be living like monastics who kept every single little rule to the nth degree. What he found instead were regular people who were working out their salvations in fear and trembling. His priest wasn’t St. Seraphim of Sarov whose every utterance was beamed to him straight from the Holy Spirit. His Bishop… well, nevermind. His expectations, gleaned from bad sources, didn’t live up to reality.

    So he quit, in disgust. But by and by he realized his error. Authentic Orthodoxy is found among the people of an Orthodox parish, not on some discussion forum. He realized that even though he knew the Canons better than anyone in his parish, even if he knew the Bible better than his priest, even if he kept the fasts to the strictest degree, he had become a clanging cymbal and had no love. But he repented and came back, to that same parish. He realized that people are saved together as a community and that these were the people given to him by God to learn to love and to work with.

    I think many people give up on their churches too quickly. They leave one imperfect place and join another, only to discover it’s full of sinners, too. After five or six hops, they decide the church as an “institution” is hopeless and they announce they “love God but are not religious.”

  98. #97 is gold!

  99. what i see missing from Blentil’s post – he makes many good observations – is that we need teachers, we need to be taught and kept on track by someone who has the bona fides to do it… can a group of Believers function outside a structured church? probably so, but they’ll go off on some very goofy rabbit trails without a shepherd … a good one
    how sad that we have so many calling themselves shepherds because somebody told them they’d make a good one and, for reasons other than a love of God’s Truth and teaching it, they signed on…
    shepherds, what pastures are you leading the sheep into? God’s sheep don’t thrive on grass that has been GMO’d
    still thinking on the authenticity thread, i guess 🙂

  100. @97

    The transition from non-reform to reform has been underway for years. I have not really followed or appreciated the transition to Orthodox, such as you mentioned. I’m beginning to feel that far more people are looking to Orthodox theology then I realized.

    Are you seeing strong growth in Orthodox congregations, or is a misunderstanding on my part?

  101. Hi Nathan, I don’t think there’s a huge migration to Eastern Orthodoxy here in America. There was a period of time, maybe 15-20 years ago, when it was “cool” to investigate Orthodoxy and we did see a lot of new faces, including my own, many of who are still with us. I personally know 12 people from my old CC who have converted to Orthodoxy, which is a pretty good number.* Some parishes are thriving and some are not. Our parish has quadrupled in the past ten years but that means going from 15 souls to 60, which is about all who will fit. The Greeks seem to be losing their people the fastest whereas the stricter jurisdictions seem to be growing. Lot’s of people say they are “looking into Orthodoxy” but it’s jumping in the deep end of the pool for sure.

    Parishes that over emphasize their ethnic roots (Greek dancing classes, for example) are dwindling whereas parishes that emphasize the Gospel and the Sacraments are growing, from what I see. There are always exceptions, of course. This is the type of thing we talk about on Orthodox discussion forums. 🙂

    *This is entirely the fault of our old CC pastor’s diligence in teaching the Scriptures. He did such a good job that we realized we were missing something pretty big.

  102. Blentil,

    I understand your frustration. If you will recall the Scriptures, they paint a picture of a corrupted Church. Perhaps you are unfamiliar with such predictions.

    With that said, I would gladly defend the CC’s. And even it’s leaders.

    The Church, all of it, is built by God. It says in a certain place; ….”..blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in me…”…
    There is no true Church / Apostate Church. There is only one Church. As it says; …”One Lord, one faith, one baptism”…

    Blentil..do not be offended by what the Lord as created, and who he has called out of the World.

  103. With all the drama going on in the CC movement (CCA Split, Gospel for Asia downfall etc.) has anyone heard from Damien Kyle regarding these matters. He is one of the members who signed the CCA letter, he is still promoting GFA, and he doesn’t seem like he’s from the same mold as Jack Hibbs, David Rosales, and the rest of the Calvary Pharisees etc.

  104. Kyle is back on the CCA council and is just as bad or worse than the others.

  105. There are many ways that men (or women) can fall and many immoral canals into which they jump (and I really do believe they jump). If you have ever experienced it in your own family, you know how deep and wide the canals are and how devastating the results are to everyone involved. And honestly, once the sin is done, it doesn’t matter “how”. The damage is done. Knowing how doesn’t heal anyone.

    What’s sad to me is that the enemy prevailed one more time and managed to take down a leader, which is probably more fun than he can have before breakfast any day of the week. And he prevailed because of two words: Secrecy and shame.

    Until we are willing as Christians to come out from behind the things we hide and tell SOMEONE what the heck we are going through, we are often doomed to be dragged into the temptations and suffer the shame of the sins they lead us into. I’ve lived it, seen it, seen the results of it, and tried to pick myself up from the muck of it. And it is really, really mucky. Sexual sin in a marriage is unlike anything else I have ever experienced and anyone who goes there has a bigger problem than anyone knows. They don’t get there because one day they wake up and think they might sin. They get there because there is inherently something really spiritually wrong in their lives and they won’t tell anyone about it.

    And shame takes care of that. How sad this all is. It makes me cry.

  106. Martin Luther’s Disciple

    Nice name.

    Who is telling who (or is it whom?) that they “have to” participate in a system like this…”? I don’t see anyone holding a gun to anyone’s head. My contention is that the pewsters are just as guilty as the pastors in this train-wreck – co dependent – the pewsters have a great need to be controlled and the pastor’s accommodate them.

    – I agree w/that point. Maybe we’re speaking past each other.

    Then you say; “No man can save you. No man can change the state your soul is in. Only God can do that.” Where do you find the opposite of this being taught?

    – Ha, you’re funny. The way pastors are lauded and treated as deity in America is sickening. Where do I find it? In almost every American pulpit.

  107. Blentil,

    Clean up your mouth and be respectful of the people here or go somewhere else to rant.

  108. You’re under moderation for being rude and profane.

    Hitting too close to home?
    I’m the one who owns the place and posts the information in the first place, hero…

  109. Oh, you own the place? Rude and profane, how so specifically? And me speaking bluntly is profane, but people defending lying adulters isn’t? What church so you supposedly run, hero?

    You and Mark Driscoll, the internet tough guy “preachers” from Arizona.

  110. Blentil,

    I’m not from Arizona.
    I ran the first articles against Driscoll before anyone else did.

    We don’t drop F bombs here.
    We do treat the other members of the community with respect.

    You’re banned.

  111. We’ll miss him so.

  112. sadly, Blentil (is that code for something? or a real name?) can’t see the forest for the trees… well, that’s not quite the right analogy, but it’s the best i’ve got tonight…
    the Church has some wonderful teachers and some incredible pastors with the hearts of a servant to both God and man…
    humility is the ability to learn, not leap to conclusions, and by learning, discern… it is one of the main reasons, i think – dunno – that God hates pride…
    it is true that our problem right now appears to be the celebrity pastor that so many are drawn to to the point of overwhelming their own spiritual growth and their One on one with God – but does the Church have new problems or just different emphases at different seasons?

  113. If we confess our sin, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sin, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
    What human “accountability partner” can top that? 😕

  114. When I was in college a million years ago, I was part of a small church that had a plurality of leaders from two churches that merged. Great people, loved it and they loved me.
    I was part of a kinship group led by one of the the pastors and his wife, who had a HUGE impact on my life at the time. Over time, I became a part of their family in many ways that remain to this day.

    After they lost a child, she became clinically depressed and basically not able to function. His reaction to the grief was to find solace with someone else for a short time.
    Although the church did everything they could to help in every way possible, the marriage broke up. That whole episode has had lasting emotional consequences on everyone involved including them, their children, myself and others that were part of that church. The church, although there were other elders/pastors, never really recovered and eventually merged with another group which basically was the end of that.

    It’s been many many years since all that happened. I’m so glad for every one involved that the internet wasn’t around at that time!! The emotional trauma that happened to their kids, which has only recently been started healing, was deep enough. To have to see their father’s face spread all over the internet with complete strangers commenting on the most awful thing that’s ever happened to their family would have been devastating.
    I can’t even imagine how awful it would be to see someone you love talked about in forums like this by people who don’t even know them.

    I have to go on record to say that I think these kinds of articles are wrong and do no good for the persons involved, their families, or their church. They make me sad and personally, I think they are simply gossip which we are told not to do.

  115. I stand by my earlier post, air all of the truth. Names, timelines, as someone suggested. 2 posts here are from women who’s husbands were in a same position, committed the same sin and kept all the privacy being spoken about here, and somehow they were blamed!?

    Someone said, only if she’s well known… I don’t understand this. If I or any of you went along with a well known leader into this same sin. How does it make us less accountable that we’re not the one who is well known? They are equal in the sin, show me how and where, anywhere in the Bible there is only one adulterer in an affair?

    Same sin, same accountability… same sinful relationship, same consequences.

    Why you ask? For the very reason this blog’s sometimes horrible posts…(which are just a small example of the sheeps thoughts and feelings) to remove doubt, restore trust, provide a warning, show the holes in the current system, establish both hope and accountability, and yes… out any others who have shown themselves not worthy of their own calling who also may have contributed to this sin.

    This is uncomfortable for everyone, but it is not over, it’s like tumbling dominoes. The only way to stay ahead of the fallout is with truth, transparency, and follow up about what is to be done. I think the sheep have to be put first, and the leadership helped.

    Like cleaning a wound, all the junk needs to come out before we apply bandages or the inevitable infection will spread.

  116. Drawing in the Sand, you seem to want people to tell their sins in public but you don’t even want your own name to be made public. Evidently, you wish your privacy to be respected. We shall respect it. Let’s respect other sinners’ privacy as well.

  117. as to the embarrassing assertion that pastors “in almost every American pulpit” are lauded and treated as deities is just plain horse puckey…
    no, strike that… horse puckey isn’t all that offensive really and is wonderful fertilizer…
    respect isn’t quite the same as worship and the fact that SOME poor souls do look for pastors worth hearing for their celebrity status doesn’t equate with ALL of America; not by a long shot
    i have noticed that those much younger than i are quite comfortable overstating, and in vulgar terms, reality – in order to give themselves credibility with their peers? in order to offend those who are older themselves and think they know something? dunno, but it mirrors the music of the day and doesn’t really indicate independent thinking at all…

    just my not so humble opinion again and sayin cuz i can

  118. Xenia, thanks for summing up what I said in a very non-precise, generalistic, and judgmental way. For putting how you feel first and not considering others who are affected by leaders I see you are not fit for logical conversation, care for a flock, or governing of a church body. I welcome thoughtful commentary on what I said and the questions I raised earlier but at no point did I say I “want people to tell their sins in public”. Wow. Do you read?

  119. Xenia, thanks<<<<

    You're welcome.

  120. I see you are not fit for logical conversation, care for a flock, or governing of a church body
    ——————————————————————
    My comments are posts 89 and 90 above.

    I do my best on the logical conversation part, but definitely can check the boxes on the other two standards cited.

    Sometimes, people disagree on the best course of action in difficult times. One does not have to attach harsh motives to why…

  121. “I have to go on record to say that I think these kinds of articles are wrong and do no good for the persons involved, their families, or their church. They make me sad and personally, I think they are simply gossip which we are told not to do.”

    London,

    Because I respect you,I’ll answer this briefly.
    In the situation you described, I probably wouldn’t have done an article.
    Over the years we’ve covered a hell of a lot more than we’ve exposed.

    In cases where there is systemic sin and ongoing threat to the spiritual and emotional health of others, we write about it.

    Those who invest their time,hearts, and money, in these places, along with family who may be victims of abuse and fraud deserve to know the truth.

  122. an interesting question now rattling around in my head… which comes first the best interests of the individual Believer or the welfare of a segment of the Body of Christ?
    i hate to say it, but if my husband had left me for another woman, i think i’d be finger pointing and shouting it all over the place – then i’d calm down and try to work thru an aspect of our sin nature with the children … dunno
    from the kids i’ve known whose parent betrayed them along these lines and their custodial parent then, in the interests of their child(ren) having a respect for the parent, never said a thing derogatory about the wandering mate – it is, after all, by it’s very nature a public situation to one degree or another – it left those kids very confused… as does the sentence that i just typed here 🙂

  123. For me, if an institution must have secrecy to be respected, and transparency would cause it to collapse, then, by all means, let it fall, and the quicker the better.

  124. Here’s the thing. At the first pastor’s conference after Chuck died, in the summer of 2014, a major theme was transitions in ministry. The older making way for the newer. A core belief of CC and something Chuck himself talked about often (even if he practiced it imperfectly) There were some excellent messages and workshops and one of the best was Bob’s. He shared what he was doing personally to transition the leadership and the congregation to a next generation. I was encouraged and I hoped that much of the old guard among his peers were listening to him.

    So when he resigned from the Sr. role (but not the church), I thought (and I know I was not alone in this among CC circles), YES! Here is a pastor that gets it, that still has the maturity and interest to care about the health of the church, even when he no longer is the Sr. Pastor. That is willing to serve the church without having to be the guy on stage to do so. That recognizes stepping down from the Sr. Pastor role does not mean you sit at home the rest of your days with no desire to worship at a church if you aren’t the one giving the sermon anymore.

    I saw (and referenced on occasion to others) the church in Boise as a model for the future of the movement.

    So personally, I am glad to know the truth. That such was not the case at all.

    I really don’t like to go around touting what I think are mature, Godly examples of leadership when the truth is far from it….and I know from personal experience that when people praise who they remember as a “great man of God” it is not usually desirable or necessary to step in and correct them of their misconceptions with the truth.

  125. There is most definitely a fine line here, in this age of the internet.

    We should and must cover.

    “For love covers a multitude of sins.”

    On the other hand, when it comes to the pastor of a church,

    “Them that sin rebuke before all, that others may fear.” 1 Timothy 5:20

    As for me, I am still sorting all of this stuff out, in this internet age.

  126. One way to try to evaluate this would be to consider – would this discussion about Bob Caldwell be appropriate on the front page of the New York Times? Before the internet that would have been the only option.

    It probably should have remained in house.

  127. MLD, what are you babbling about. Before the internet there were these very popular things called LOCAL newspapers, usually a couple per town, one of which was subscribed to by just about every family in the town.

    And you can bet the Boise Herald and the Boise Gazette (or whatever) would see this as news worthy of publishing.

  128. The Boise Herald (or National Enquirer) is far different than a Christian website, Steve.

  129. I was addressing the latest MLD inanity, CostcoCal

  130. “Not many [of you] should be come teachers [self-constituted censors and reprovers of others], my brethren, for you know that we [teachers] will be judged by a higher standard and with greater severity [than other people].–Thus we assume the greater accountability and the more condemnation.” (James 3:1, Amp.)

    “Do not receive an accusation against an elder except on the basis of two or three witnesses. Those who continue in sin, rebuke in the presence of all, so that the rest also may be fearful of sinning. I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus and of his chosen angels, to maintain these principles without bias, doing nothing in a spirit of partiality [favor towards the offender].” (I Timothy 5:19-21, NASB)

    “Do not be in a hurry in the laying on of hands–giving the sanction of the church too hastily [in reinstating expelled offenders or in ordination in questionable cases]–nor share or participate in another man’s sins; keep yourself pure.” (I Timothy 4:22, Amp.)

    “But do not let immorality or any impurity or greed even be named among you, as is proper among saints;…And do not participate in the unfruitful deeds of darkness but instead even expose them;” (Ephesians 5:3 & 11, NASB)

    “But he who practices the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God.” (John 3:21, NASB)

  131. I have read the LA Times, the OC Register and the Daily Pilot for years and have never read stories about pastors like Caldwell.

    But it would be interesting to see if it did make the Boise pages.

  132. MLD,

    I worked with the LA Times and the OC Register on stories about CC pastors.

    So far the mail is running about 3-1 in favor of the adulterer over the blogger.

    Unfortunately,the blogger just had another story laid on his lap that is the most evil he’s ever heard…and doesn’t care about the consequences any more.
    Interestingly enough, I posted these Caldwell stories without commentary…

  133. MLD, a quick google search shows an archived article from 1992 from the LA Times, as news the day after it happened, of the Hocking resignation.

    I think if you got out the old microfiche and did some research of those old papers you would find that when scandal hits one of the biggest churches in the city, it makes the newspaper.

    But the point is that this IS the internet age, and people like Julie Anne and Alex have archived articles praising the guy and his Christian witness as one who does it right….and those are from critics of CC.

    I for one am glad I will not continue to perpetrate a lie about his stepping aside for the younger generation to prosper…even if I was doing so ignorantly.

  134. Michael – I wasn’t being critical of your post – but this is what should be – can ethics keep up with technology.
    The point is that adultery is sin but it is not illegal and doesn’t really hurt society – so what is the news value — if the church has dealt with it?

    As to Steve’s hero worship of Caldwell’s statement – what can I say? Why there are archived articles praising Caldwell I have no idea – I googled my pastor who has been a pastor 35 yrs, holds a doctorate, is published and I find nothing not related to our church or the synod. I am sure someone will go do a deeper search and find an article but it cannot be classified as ‘archived articles’. – the question is, who is doing the Caldwell praising – other CC pastors?

  135. Good grief, MLD. Hero worship?

    Now you are just being deliberately obstinate.

    I don’t care that you don’t care a fig about Calvary Chapel. Why should you?

    But for a CC pastor like myself to want the best for the future, at a time when the biggest transition is taking place from longtime founding pastors getting older and eventually stepping aside, is not “hero worship” – all the more considering my own personal experience which you know all too well and should not want wished upon another.

  136. Why there are archived articles praising Caldwell I have no idea …..who is doing the Caldwell praising – other CC pastors?
    —————————————-
    Because Alex went to his church a few times and met with him privately and shared what was a very positive experience and others shared what he shared.

    So, no, not other CC pastors.

  137. Michael,
    I agree that those invested in the church have the right to know what happened. However, I believe that info should come from the folks at the church, not spread all over the Internet for those who have zero invested in it.

    I respect you as well.

  138. Bob Caldwell was a significant leader in CC, not just in Boise.
    He had a seat on the CCA council at one time and is very well known in the mission field.

    Now….if you of over to CC Boise’s website you will have no clue that anything unusual happened this weekend.
    No statement, no video of the service.

    This leads to people emailing me and demanding proof of this…and others wanting to know why I haven’t written the whole story.

    I’ve been called everything but holy for days.

    Why haven’t they posted the statement and the video?
    Why should the burden of proof be on me?

  139. Steve, I guess I am baffled by your shock and rejection of Caldwell’s succession plan. He did exactly what he said he was going to do – and I assume what he was advising you to do – make an exit plan. You may not have known his motive (that he was going to need to leave under a cloud) but when he left his succession plan was in place and worked smoothly.

    The 8th commandment requires that as Christians we put the best construction on situations – and you are not. The least you could do is compliment the guy for taking care of his church before his own life imploded.

  140. To Michael’s recent point.

    Caldwell was on the CC Council. He is now absent and his name has been absent from the letters involving the future of the movement.

    I for one (and others) have noted that and have asked why. Did he resign the Council because he disagrees with their statements about Brian. Why did he not sign the letters if he did not resign? Does he disagree? Hey, did the Council vote to kick him off?

    Well, now we know why he is absent, don’t we. Because of this blog.

    And I happened to write the Council and use Bob as an example of my questions on this matter which does effect the future of OUR Calvary Chapel (and the other 1800 out there)

    Maybe the Council members (those who might know the truth, if any) did not feel it was their job to tell CC pastors about his moral failing before the people of Boise knew. And rightfully so. I know I would be able to write a different letter now, and would do so, than I did 3 weeks ago.

    It’s not “hero worship” to acknowledge his position of leadership and positive reputation gained in serving the Lord for decades, or the chain of repercussion down through Calvary Chapel beyond his one local church given the current split the movement is experiencing.

  141. Allegedly,his “succession” plan was put together very quickly when he got caught.
    The one who caught him told him to resign or they would go public.
    All of a sudden Caldwell felt a new calling.
    The church “allegedly’ had no idea what was really going on.

    They only found out about two weeks ago…allegedly,of course.

    Use the eighth commandment on that pile of smoking dog crap to the best of your ability.

  142. Steve,

    Based on what I know today…I don’t think the council knew about this.
    That is open to correction…

  143. MLD. I can’t celebrate a lie.

    For all we know, Bob would have been up there for another 25 years until the coroner carried him out of the pulpit.

    His “successful” succession plan that worked so “smoothly” involved assuring his church that his steady hand of leadership would remain behind the scenes and on the Board of Directors going forward – no doubt giving great comfort to the longtimers there. And I assume to justify what I also assume was some sort of ongoing compensation arrangement which was not based on an adultery coverup

  144. I thought Caldwell left 6 months ago – why would he still be on the council?

    I took out my Sharpie and blacked out the 8th commandment.

  145. “And I assume to justify what I also assume was some sort of ongoing compensation arrangement which was not based on an adultery coverup”

    That one should be in capital letters…

  146. He was on the CCA council.
    Also, as we’ve learned in other locations…founding pastors rarely give up control completely…

  147. MLD, Caldwell would have been the perfect sort of person to be on the Council. If no longer serving as a Sr. Pastor, maybe he could have more time to serve the pastors of the movement in that role.

    If those other guys eventually step down as Sr. Pastors one day I see no reason they would need or want to step down from the Council.

  148. In 2008, a fairly well known pastor/mission org pres fell into adultery. We all learned of the infidelity on a Fri. By Fri. afternoon, the BOD’s met including a very prominent person that was considered one of Chuck’s right hand men. They felt that they had two major issues to deal with. First, how do we keep this out of the papers? Second, how do we maintain our donor base? On the very next day at the Sat evening service at CCCM, Brian openly discussed what had happened from the pulpit.

    This guy is now the right hand man to the new celebrity pastor, flavor of the month down in San Juan Capistrano.

    I have much respect for Brian and how he didn’t try to hide or protect anyone.

  149. Oh yeah, the wannabe celebrity pastor in San Juan Capistrano is also with CCA and even attended a pastor’s conference recently to seek the CCA package to a room full of pastors.

  150. But we don’t know – so I assume the best and Michael and Steve… well.
    But hey, you guys know the heart and mind of CC pastors better than I do – so perhaps you are right.

  151. Sell not seek…

  152. MLD, other than Rahab saving the lives of God’s people, the Egyptian midwives lying about saving the lives of those little babies…where in your Bible do you see the celebration or accommodation of a lie?

    This isn’t lying to Nazi soldiers about the Jews in your attic….this is about lying over sexual sin to avoid embarrassment, shame, and loss of status (and likely, income)

    His lie did not protect an innocent 3rd party being hunted down for death. And as is in the Bible “his sin found him out”

    Michael is a reporter here. Not the whistleblower. And he is doing a service that is, in fact, valuable to many (though heartbreaking indeed)

  153. covered,

    I’d bet the ranch that the wannabe ends up on our front page someday…

  154. That’s funny Michael. I often open up this blog thinking the same thing.

  155. Michael & Steve Wright,
    I am appreciating your most recent comments. If it were found that there were those who had knowledge of Bob’s affair and were complicit in a cover up, what would you say to them? Secondly, what do you think should have been done back when it was discovered that Chuck Smith had committed this sin? I am genuine in wanting insight from the both of you.

  156. covered…I am almost 100% sure I know the reference you cite…

    Man, do I have a backstory on that one from over a decade prior….needless to say, I was not overly shocked at the news. Saddened, yes. Totally surprised? No.

  157. JM,

    If I find complicity and cover up, I’ll write it if it seems the just and righteous thing to do.

    The Chuck Smith issue is very complex…I’m writing about it in my book.
    All I can say is that no one suffered more for longer over that situation than Chuck Smith…and it set up a series of issues that everyone is still dealing with today.

  158. covered, to be clear, I was talking about the adulterous pastor from 2008

  159. Ok, Michael. My history with CC goes back pretty far (early 70’s). Since my family suffered under the leaven of lax attitudes within this association–and much of it due to that cover up–it will always make me thoughtful. Thank you for addressing my question, though. It is appreciated.

  160. “Michael is a reporter here. Not the whistleblower. And he is doing a service that is, in fact, valuable to many (though heartbreaking indeed)”

    I agree – so report away – but why are the comments open – that doesn’t facilitate the reporting.

    No one is protecting a liar – the church handled it internally with their congregation and they said that Bob was to eventually address the congregation – so if the church knows and Bob may (he may not – he may chicken out) apologize, repent of the act and of the lie – but in the end, who is this conversation informing or helping.

  161. Steve, should I take this conversation about what happened at a corrupt CC – a CC that is handling it – but use this to make your congregation suspicious of you and what you may be doing wrong, or suspect you may be doing the same act as Caldwell? Because that is the only purpose I see here- as CC Boise has been told already.

  162. but in the end, who is this conversation informing or helping.
    —————————————-
    I thought I have said multiple times now, it informs and helps me – as a CC pastor, at this time in our movement’s history.

    If you feel like you are rubbernecking, then get alone with the Lord and look in the mirror and consider maybe repenting.

    I know I am perfectly happy these days staying away from some of the articles around here….

  163. but use this to make your congregation suspicious of you and what you may be doing wrong,
    ———————————————
    LOL. You wouldn’t be the first MLD…but they are veritable professionals to your amateur status…

    And we have a written accountability procedure that is followed if anyone with an ounce of credibility or not living a double life should bring an accusation.

    (Actually, the procedure allows for those people too….they just aren’t going to get out of the batter’s box)

  164. I knew what you meant Steve. When the pastor was asked what the hell was he thinking? He responded that he believed the press. He felt that it was him that was doing all the amazing work and God was only the co-pilot. (Not his exact words but you get the gist)

  165. I didn’t mean me – but if everyone in Boise knows about Caldwell’s sin, the only thing I can see is that this is a warning for all CC congregations to take another look at their pastor – as we know, all these CC pastors were great guys … until they weren’t.

    Without a board chosen by the congregation, but packed by the pastor – or have no expiration date – as I think your board pretty much has a life time shelf life – accountability papers can mean nothing.

  166. But hey, this is an internal CC thing and I am rubbernecking – but hey there is absolutely no sin in that kind of entertainment — I mean it’s not like breaking the 8th commandment. 😉

  167. covered, his was the only other CC I ever attended besides Costa Mesa – my first year as a Christian. Just a few months old in the Lord when we started going there, We were there less than 3 months and went sprinting back to Costa Mesa and the 90 minute round trip commute instead of the 5 minute one to his place. Didn’t leave again for 8 years until we started our first church.

    Sometimes the short drive to the most local church is not the best option for one’s spiritual growth.

  168. Without a board chosen by the congregation, but packed by the pastor – or have no expiration date – as I think your board pretty much has a life time shelf life – accountability papers can mean nothing.
    ———————————————————
    MLD, when you move from opinion to errors of fact directed at me personally, you force me to respond because a whole lot of people are reading this thread and I am the one who posts by name. (I get messages regularly, privately, about this blog and my comments here)

    So, since you bear your false witness here, I will clarify that

    A) I did not pick one member of our current Board of Directors, as they were all placed there by my predecessor more than 8 years ago

    B) I did in fact write, along with that same Board of Directors, our accountability guidelines which were not in existence before I became the Sr. Pastor. That explain how any of us in leadership, including me, can be removed.

    C) We have deliberately kept this same Board of Directors until our financial obligation is concluded with my predecessor, which has been a wise decision given the history of these last 8 years. We have every intention of rotating the Board and believe me, I am more than eager to open the opportunity to others in the Body. (Although frankly, other than ongoing transition related matters, there is not a lot of sizzle in the typical Board business of our church. We are too broke to have much to talk about 🙂 )

  169. Steve, you attended RSM?

  170. Good Lord…

    For the readers…I am very well acquainted with Steve Wright’s by laws and have watched his board in action in a very difficult situation.

    The congregation in LE has nothing to worry about.

    Nothing.

  171. the only thing I can see is that this is a warning for all CC congregations to take another look at their pastor – as we know, all these CC pastors were great guys … until they weren’t.
    ————————————————
    Now, back to your matters of opinion. I agree with you here. And yeah, when a CC pastor falls, it does reflect badly on all of us. I think you might have already gotten that vibe reading all the comments people on this blog have against CC as a whole.

    And so yeah, my participation here is to balance that playing field somewhat…and to build a reputation with others, both inside and outside of CC circles. It’s not like I am speaking at conferences.. 🙂

    And I more than invite anyone to look into my life as closely as they desire. Ask around the church how I am with the people. Find out our policies about being alone with women etc. One reason I can post as often here as I do is because I make sure that I am home, with my wife and family, every waking hour I do not absolutely have to be serving at the church. I doubt there is any time out of the day my wife does not know my whereabouts.

    The sheer amount of foolish sinful choices, one by one, all with the Holy Spirit screaming at the man to stop, before a guy ends up in bed with another woman is staggering. It does not just “happen”. And so yeah, I get emotional about it.

    We have three pastors on staff (plus our Spanish pastor) and all are in agreement (now before anything that might ever happen) that adultery will be an immediate disqualification and removal – and our Board agrees. There will be not even a sniff of coverup – and going on record again, here and now, just testifies fully to that commitment at CCLE

  172. Thanks, Michael.

    Yep, covered.

  173. re #132

    “Unfortunately,the blogger just had another story laid on his lap that is the most evil he’s ever heard…and doesn’t care about the consequences any more.”

    I’m completely lost here…

  174. Stephen,

    This isn’t an easy blog to maintain.
    People say bad things about me and sometimes it gets to me.
    Sometimes I want to quit and write cat stories as I wait for the onset of dementia… 🙂

    Yesterday another story was presented to me that has rocked me.
    No one else is going to write it.
    I have to.

    So…I was just doing some preliminary whining.
    I should have started a blog on animal husbandry or cabinet making…

  175. Wow Steve, small world…

  176. Steve, I didn’t speak of you in particular but generalized the typical CC leadership function and pointed out one commonality with your church.
    I had hoped that you would have recognized it sooner.

  177. Steve Wright, let me say that I really respect how you handle yourself here.

    I appreciate your forthright manner and especially your ability to keep MLD in his place 😉

  178. Michael,

    I can completely appreciate what you are saying. I don’t know if I could do what you do…the headaches (and ulcers) would make life…difficult…to say the least.

    Whine on, as long as you need to. 😉

    (I hear there is a market for macrame these days)

  179. Post# 138

    “Now….if you go over to CC Boise’s website you will have no clue that anything unusual happened this weekend.
    No statement, no video of the service.
    This leads to people emailing me and demanding proof of this…and others wanting to know why I haven’t written the whole story.”

    Michael,

    I was in Church on Sunday at CCBoise and a two page letter was read aloud by Pastor Tucker.

    1. Bob Caldwell committed adultery… yes it is true.
    2. No audio or video has been posted on the Church website, though they say it will be.
    3. They (elders, pastors, board members) say they just found out about it 2 weeks ago.

    Prayer for Pastor Tucker and the Church body would be appreciated.

  180. Michael

    If you ever feel like a mental vacation you can always blog about acid staining 50 year old interior concrete. God knows I need the help

    🙂

  181. I take back all the points I made (or failed to make) yesterday about how the Caldwell situation should be handled. I realize that I come from a different generation and a very different church culture.

    I was thrown into leadership at my church when our pastor went rogue. It was given to the new guys (there was a couple of us) to lead the church. We dealt with the issue internally, when it got difficult we called in our circuit counselor and when we needed more fire power we brought in the district president (who was best friends with our pastor since seminary days 35 yrs previous.)

    We ended up suspending the pastor for almost a year – we had several meetings within the congregation to keep everyone up to date. It never occurred to us that we needed to alert the public, to blog about it or post it on our website.

    Anyone outside who needed to know – the synod, Concordia University Irvine were notified by phone.
    I will chalk it up to a different church culture and leave it at that. We restored the pastor – about 1/4th of the church was pissed and left – but both sides still refrained from blogging and website posting or any other kind of public shaming – and it worked. 🙂

  182. MLD, as I think I’ve told you before..I knew about your pastoral issue when it was happening. And not because you told me. Yeah, it may not have been highly publicized but your pastor did not lead a multi thousand mega church, nor was he removed for adultery disqualification. However, let’s not pretend more than a few of the disgruntleds didn’t share their frustration. How did I know about it if they did not?

    What you describe DOES happen even in our “church culture” too. No fanfare outside of those who need to know as an issue is dealt with within the local church.

  183. Steve, obviously our memories differ. Mine shows that I told you about a year after and didn’t tell you the reason for another couple of years. I also remember that you told me we did not punish him enough.

    I do like the way you prioritize the disqualifying sins …

    “What you describe DOES happen even in our “church culture” too. No fanfare outside of those who need to know as an issue is dealt with within the local church.” – shouldn’t that be ALL situations?

    But alas, I am being dragged back in – hey, you guys go string up your guys any way you want and I will not interfere.

  184. MLD,

    You are talking about radically different church cultures.
    Your group has a designated hierarchy to handle such issues.
    Most independent churches do not.

    We would all prefer that these kind of “transitions” could be done quietly and gracefully…but that is not always possible.

  185. I’m sure I was being gracious in silence as you shared rather than interrupt you and say “I know about all that already”

    And your crack at how I prioritize sins, while not saying publicly to the readers what his sin was is noted. Needless to say, if the readers did know, I imagine they all would see a major difference between the two.

    Besides, any accountability process has to allow for different degrees of discipline. It’s not an either or process, fired or remain as if nothing happened. Some sins, like your pastor’s, can rightfully be dealt with through suspension and healing and restoration. And again, my criticism was not that you guys did not fire him, but the speed in which he was restored.

  186. I contend, and Google backs me up, that if you are famous enough pastoring at a large enough church, your adultery will make the news.

    I also contend if you are obscure enough, it won’t. Church culture and denomination has nothing to do with it except to the level they may try to cover it up…the Catholics had a culture for their evil too, until the media exploded the story

  187. Tullian was a Presbyterian pastor.

  188. Steve, you still miss the point. My claim wasn’t if folks outside knew. Part of the anger comes because the church in Boise has not posted the letter on it’s own website and that they have not posted the video of the service / including the announcement on the website – as the church is expected to publicly shame the pastor. – and this would be expected from any church in your system that is large enough to have it’s own website.

    In Boise’s case, they are taking the heat after they handled the issue. The church is now whole and you and yours won’t allow it to remain that way. Again, string them up the way you want to.

  189. Michael,
    “You are talking about radically different church cultures.”

    And that is what I said in my #181

  190. Oh please, you haven’t just moved the goalposts but the whole stadium. This discussion is not about anger at the church for not posting something online. That has only been referenced briefly, and only because 1) they promised to and 2) Michael was getting crap from some offblog demanding corroboration.

  191. “… and this would be expected from any church in your system that is large enough to have it’s own website.”

    To be fair, in this day and age, EVERY church (regardless of size) needs to have a website…Especially independent ones.

  192. MLD,

    There is a rather large contingent of folks who think I wake up in the morning and make up lies about prominent CC pastors.
    They believe all my articles about the CC split are either fabricated or planted by the enemies of Jesus.
    Unless you were at the services in Boise on Sunday or watched them on the internet,there is no corroboration that a major player has fallen.
    Boise said they were going to post the material…not me.

  193. Here’s what just is not getting through to some. Bob’s face was prominently listed on the Council leadership page until 2 weeks ago. Right after the Brian controversy had begun.

    Likewise, when this stuff is covered up, guys have a tendency to pop up elsewhere in a new ministry, using their stellar reputations and the benefit of a few years of silence to continue on. At least if people want to listen to an adulterer, they ought to know they are.

  194. None of this is any of my business but for the sake of the PhxP, here’s my opinion: Yes, the sins of a famous pastor should be made public as far as he has had influence. If he had a national audience and a national leadership role, I guess the nation needs to know (in the briefest way possible) what happened. As for the other people involved, unless his partner in crime is also a well-known person, let her sins be between her family, her God and herself.

    The PhxP is a news source for the Calvary Chapel world, odd as that may be. So be it.

  195. I think Bob should be fired. I have no problem with that at all – in fact it is the only thing to do. But, do you put wanted posters all over town? Perhaps you do.

    Steve, “Likewise, when this stuff is covered up,…” now you have gone back to accusing Boise of a cover up that needs to be exposed.

  196. MLD, you are being obtuse to the point of sinful misrepresentation. I applaud Boise for their actions this week, and have never implied a cover up. However, this sin HAS been covered up in the past by other men and/or churches.

    Now, I am done engaging your deliberate misrepresentations of me and my beliefs. I have been quite clear here.

    And since it was way back in the thread, I will repeat what I said earlier…to Xenia’s point. Let the lady stay anonymous.

  197. Puts a whole new spin on the term lay minister

  198. Sad news,

    I listened to the audio clip and I can accept the apology but this whole “VISION” that was added onto the message with the dead caskets coming alive driving away in the white pick up truck that was the same color as Caldwell’s truck makes me want to vomit.

  199. Lots of opinions offered here validly from different perspectives.

    Many years ago I had concern for family members who would happen upon this site and then read some tough things about a spouse, father, child, etc. I stated as much.

    In stories like this I always think to the powerful message one of our members shared from the perspective of the guilty pastor. I still believe it is a must listen for all of us.

    Hopefully true healing and reconciliation can be achieved by the two impacted families.

  200. Just a heads up since I already got one message off line.

    When I post, I use both my names. Never just “Steve” – that is a different poster.

  201. I have attended CC Boise for over a decade, and I was there on Sunday. I’m all over the place with my feelings. I’m heartbroken, hopeful, angry, hurt, feel betrayed, faithful, reminded that in the end Christ is the only one I can truly expect to be perfect. I love my church, and I’m so very sad for Tucker. I can only imagine what he is going through.

    Michael (blog owner), thank you for providing a place where I can read all these comments and sift through my own feelings.

    Michael, I might regret asking, but in #41 you said, “The one who cought him said to resign or they would go public.” Is it still your understanding that BC’s short notice resignation came after someone threatened to publicize the affair if he didn’t step down?

    I am struggling to process this part of it the most. We all knew he was making a transition plan, as he had previously gently prepared us for the change that would take place in 1-3 yrs. But I felt shocked by his short term resignation in March. And I felt guilty for being upset about it at the time. If God was leading him in that decision, I thought I should happily accept God’s plan. Now I’m realizing that the timing wasn’t God’s perfect Plan A, and I didn’t need to beat myself up for being upset about it in March.

  202. “Is it still your understanding that BC’s short notice resignation came after someone threatened to publicize the affair if he didn’t step down?”

    That has been verified through multiple sources…

  203. Alice,

    I pretty much have the whole story at this point and all I would say is that I think your current leadership is handling the issue in a responsible and God honoring way.

  204. Alice, God bless you.

    You sound like someone with a very tender heart. I have nothing to add except that I share, in some limited way, the pain you all must be going through at CCB.

    Isaiah 54:10

  205. Why do they always liken themselves to KingDavid…they are not kings. Sigh.

    King David was not a pastor called by God to be a religious leader. He was not explaining the Bible to his royal subjects. That was Davids

    The church is not the pastor’s royal subjects. His palace. His kindom.

    That is just messed up

  206. Alice, I am sorry for your loss and your pain. praying for you

  207. I’ve been reading this Blog for 10 years and MLD seldom agrees with anyone. Stop taking the bait!

  208. John the Baptist seldom agreed with anyone either – and your point?

  209. Hi Alice, welcome to the PP. You and your church family will be prayed over by many here. I couldn’t help but notice your last sentence, a statement about not needing to “beat yourself up for being upset.” I am sorry that you felt the need to beat yourself up about anything that your pastor said or did. Bob has hurt you and finding out that someone you love and trust has fallen, is betrayal. Betrayal hurts. It hurt Jesus and it will hurt us. I hope that you are looking forward to what God can do to restore all those who worship at CC Boise.

  210. Oh no, you have to pay closer attention to how Michael, Steve W and Josh the Baptist deal with MLD. They all do an excellent job of letting him speak without allowing his words to bother them. It really is a gift! 🙂

  211. MLD

    Expressing my point would be taking your bait.

  212. Covered

    His words don’t bother me.

  213. Alice, I am a member of the church too and have experienced all those same emotions. These days I have been plunged into a dark place as i struggle spiritually, emotionally, and even physically since I haven’t been sleeping well.

    Part of my struggle is not knowing how long I sat under Bob and learned from him that he was carrying on this affair. Many of the things he said from the “pulpit” have been ringing in my head these days and I dont know what was sincere or what was just meaningless words as he went through the motions of being a career pastor.

    Then, today I found release after I listened to the audio one more time since Sunday. I appreciate the leaders statement and Bobs confession he wrote. But gently God spoke to my heart and said my days at Calvary chapel Boise are over. I know Tucker and the leadership will do great in navigating this chaos and I pray God lead them and heal everyone that chooses to remain at CC Boise.

    Calvary Chapel Boise is just a church (note the use of a lower case “c”) but we are the Church with an uppercase “C” and the gates of hell will not prevail against us. The wood, hay, and stubble will burn. It what’s left is gonna be golden. Keep the faith and hope friends.

  214. I went through three CC’s where immorality was the problem and no one was ever removed except a plebe It leaves you numb and it leaves you scarred. However, Tam Nal is right. When you realize WE ARE THE CHURCH, you also realize that God never went anywhere and these are all just men that put their pants on one leg at a time like the rest of us. When they fail, we simply find out about ourselves. Is our faith based upon these men or upon the work of Jesus on the cross? If CC in its present form suddenly ceased to exist, it will never take away the good that God has done for each and every one of us. Salvation is God’s gift to us directly and cannot be taken away. There is still only one mediator between God and man and that is still Jesus Christ. We are safe in Him and always will be.

  215. dusty’s 206 is something that needs to be a reminder to us all – true Truth

    also, having covered the ground one time long ago myself, i am certain that God’s Truth can be spoken by a pastor who is going thru turmoil in his private life or thoughts… and that Truth can bless the hearer … how many sinning priests have performed the liturgical rites (not my cup of tea) of their church and blessed the worshippers in spite of who was officiating, i wonder?

    it is IMV possible for a pastor to love God’s truth, celebrate it from the pulpit, and yet not be qualified for the office because of the personal struggles that dominate him in his own life… it doesn’t make him a devil (necessarily), nor does it mean that he is not redeemed (perhaps, perhaps not), but it does mean that he’s walking on thin ice with God by hanging onto his pastorate when it is clear in scripture that he’s not to be doing what he’s doing on either end…

  216. Having listened to the recording of the written statement and subsequent comments from the new CCB pastor, I must say it was very sobering for me personally.

    May the Lord extend mercy to everyone involved.

  217. Scooter referenced:
    Isaiah 54:10 For the mountains may depart
    and the hills be removed,
    but my steadfast love shall not depart from you,
    and umy covenant of peace shall not be removed,”
    says the Lord, who has compassion on you.

    Perfect! Thank you Scooter! And yes, Tucker’s words are sobering. Bob became what he harted and didn’t realize it. If a man that in love with God, and I have no doubt, could be deceived, then we must all guard our hearts from Satan. It’s only slightly reassuring to me that as a non- pastor I may be under less attack than a man like BC that had such a special, gentle way of reaching so many for the Lord.

    Thank you everyone for your kind words.

    Tam, I hope you are hearing the Lord correctly in your choice to leave. You might wait for reassurance of that, to be sure it isn’t human emotion. I am proud of the way the current CCB leadership is heading, and I am starting to feel excited for our future this evening. Thanks everyone!

  218. Alice, God bless you sister. I agree the leadership at Calvary is doing great. I have no doubt that from this tragedy will come something beautiful. Like baking a loaf of bread, the wheat first must be crushed and ground to a fine powder, mixed and kneaded, then put in intense heat to finally yield something edible. The core body and leadership at Calvary are experiencing this process now.
    You have been there for over a decade so your roots run deeper than mine. I have been going for 2 years and never really got plugged in. I was among the swarm of nameless faceless believers that shuffled in and out every week. I mean I participated as much is possible in a larger church. But I am sure God has given me the green light to go. I know others that are leaving too. Personally, I am increasingly finding myself disillusioned with institutional church. I’m just not sure anymore if the way we do “church” in western civilization is the way God intended it to be done. I am going to take a break from organized church and seek God from my home. Maybe it will grown into how church is done in many countries around the world, small cells of people instead of a large institute.
    I’m not quitting Calvary because of this affair but this has served as the last straw on the back of a tired and disheartened old camel.

    Love you sister.

  219. Tam Nal

    I don’t know you, so forgive the comment if it’s not helpful.

    First let me say I understand your hurt. Many years ago I used to bear no sympathy with those who felt disillusioned by the church. After being kicked out of my non denominational denomination as a pastor for having a variation on a secondary aspect of theology (not for sin), and being subsequentially slandered by leaders and old friends, etc. I started to understand. The only thing that got me through that time was knowing God’s sovereignty and plan for his church.

    Can I just say though, that in your pain I have a concern that you effectively lose the church by being the church. The local church is not church with a small c. The universal church does not exist without the local, and this makes the local church vitally important. All the NT letters are written to local churches. They may not have been mega churches, but they were clearly established with elders and deacons. They were not only organic cells, but they had clearly defined leadership. The only places where they were embryonic, like in Ephesus and Crete specifically, Paul instructed his co labourers to finish the job and get proper leadership in place. I have nothing against house churches, as the church I pastor now functioned as groups that live life as church truly and then multiple groups gathering on a Sunday together under shared eldership in a rented building. However, it breaks my heart when I hear people say they want to “take a break fro church”. We don’t need to worship men, as I too learned. But we do need leadership and a defined local church (a group of God’s called out and collected ones) for our spiritual health and in fact to ensure the health of the leaders. It’s all symbiotic and we all need each other.

    I would encourage you to first meet with one of your pastors and give your reasons for wanting to leave and ask to be sent out. If they are unavailable as sometimes happens in mega churches then meet with whoever you have contact with in some form of leadership (you may have done this already – so forgive me if you have). They need to know reasons so they can grow, or perhaps they may actually pastor you through this, and perhaps you might b apart of the redemption story. I’m not necessarily pushing that as I have a different ecclesiology than Calvary now, but I am respecting the family you are currently apart of. I suspect the newer leaders are closer to my ecclesiology now than before though,

    Once sent from them, finding a new local expression of the body should be undertaken with care in regards to gospel doctrine and then a shared philosophy of how to walk as church. Because of God’s faithifulnees, I have to believe there will be a house church, a church plant, or even a bigger established church with qualified leaders who you can grow with, encourage, support, and work with for the glory of God.

    I don’t live in the USA right now and have met leaders from all over the world in various movements. Even if they are smaller or house church, the healthy ones always have clearly defined leadership, etc.

    Overall, place your faith in Jesus as you’ve been doing, but Jesus in inextricably tied together with his people who are the church expressed primarily in local organised fellowship with the marks of the true church. Seeking God will be in His community, if that’s from home you still needs the gifts of leaders to you and they’ll need your part of the body as well.

    I know all the parties involved very well and have as much room for hurt as anyone,so I’m not speaking merely from cold logic, but out of concern for how you might glorify God and enjoy Him and his people in the midst of their mess, and all of our brokenness

    Love in Christ

  220. Dual Citizen,

    Well said. I agree leadership is absolutely necessary for the growth of individual believers and the Church (uppercase C.) But I have serious doubts about the structure of the institutional church where we have larger than life senior pastors that administrate, as well as teach, and preach every Sunday. These pastors are usually surrounded by other junior pastors, in Bobs case all of them very young, none his equal in age and influence thus making him far too superior for correction. Perhaps this contributed to his fall.

    Essentially, the current western model of church (lowercase c) isn’t serving the needs of the Church. It leaves one man navigating a large ship, which in many cases are luxury liners instead of weather beaten fishing boats. The purpose of a church is to brave the rough waters of life towards Christ, seeking survivors along the way. But it seems all too often these churches are docking their luxury liners on some tropical island instead of venturing out into the deep waters. Sure these churches have great programs in place that use our tithe money to feed the homeless, take care of the widows and orphans, help ex-cons and drug addicts, and I support that 100%, as well as paying our pastors a salary. But in the carrying out of these tasks and ensuring the luxury liner stays afloat, as well as salaries maintained, vision is lost. The luxury liner that once was a brave little ship searching the rough waters for souls to save is now more concerned how they can keep that large ship docked on this beautiful island.

    Maybe the ship needs to sink. I’m not just speaking of ccboise. All of these mega structures could use a Titanic experience to put the fear of LIFE back into them. Maybe all these gifted pastors and teachers would bail ship and buy themselves small schooners, some fishing nets and a small band of hearty brothers and sisters to set sail across the deep waters in the power of God. This type of thing is happening in the underground church all over the world and they are flourishing! American church is not. Statistics show we are barely staying afloat.

    I am not done with church because I am the Church. My time, money, energy, and heart will continue to commit itself to the Lords purpose. I’m just leaving the luxury liner to go fishing.

    God help us.

  221. Tam Nal
    You hit the nail in the head with this:

    “These pastors are usually surrounded by other junior pastors, in Bobs case all of them very young, none his equal in age and influence thus making him far too superior for correction. ”

    This applies not only in preventing s pastor from falling morally but this inhibits the maturity development of the senior leader and the overall leadership and the entire body .

  222. victorious,

    I think this is a little more common than it should be.

    I wonder how much of this is not because of the not so subtle vibe within CC that one “arrives” when one becomes a Sr. Pastor. Thus, a lot of assistants are eventually out planting new churches, and while planting new churches is great there is still a lot to be said about someone being an assistant pastor at the same place for the same 30+ years as the Sr. Pastor.

    Once more, CCCM would be an example of this with Romaine.

    Therefore, I conclude that the recent effort, led I believe largely by Brian, to include assistant pastors at conferences and so forth is a good move in the right direction.

  223. i am concerned about the trend to pull away from the organized churches in favor of going it alone with the Lord… i realize and have experienced the organization getting in the way of my own spiritual growth as well as getting between me and the Lord – there IS a spiritual dynamic that is One on one that can get lost in the desire for activity and, yes, even intellectualism as defined in the secular…
    what concerns me is that one needs to be taught and, with a few exceptions, most of us don’t do that well on our own… we don’t seem to have many sound, disciplined teachers out there today…
    my question is, is it wrong for pastors to have teachers (ongoing) from whom they regularly intake sound and pertinent doctrines which they then can simply pass on to their flocks?
    i think someone touched on this before here… i think a case can be made for doing it this way

  224. I have attended CC Boise for over 20 years. This is truly my church family. I have been tremendously blessed by Bob’s teaching during most of that time; what has happened now does not negate an entire 3 decades of faithful, anointed ministry. I know the Caldwell family. I admit I have not read every single comment in this thread, but I would like to respond to a few recurring themes in what I have read. I would recommend that before anyone comments regarding this situation, they should actually listen to Pastor Tucker’s statement.

    First of all, as to whether the woman should be exposed, in Matthew 18, we are told to try to deal with another person’s sin first privately, then with one or two witnesses, and if the person does not repent, THEN make it public. I do not know who the woman is, nor do I need to know; however, I am certain that the third step of the Matthew 18 process is not warranted in this case. The standard is higher for pastors and leaders.

    Second, the idea that people will blame Bob’s wife somehow if they don’t know the identity of the woman involved is absurd. No one who has ever met Bob’s wife would consider thinking this, she is without a doubt the most beautiful, godly woman I have ever known. The love of Jesus radiates from her. Because she is human, she is not perfect, but she is a good and loving wife. Her love and respect for her husband has always been evident. Whatever happened with Bob, it was not because of any deficiency in his wife (and the idea in general that men commit adultery because of some failure in their wives is ridiculous anyway; every person is 100% responsible for his or her own sin).

    A few people commented that the leadership at Calvary Boise was covering up Bob’s sin, which I fail to understand, because none of us would have heard about it if they had not chosen to release the information publicly and hold him accountable. But his primary accountability is to the Lord, and I am confident that He will bring good from evil, and not only restore Bob, but address the issues in his life which he may have been unaware of in the past that led him to this place.

    Finally, I think the message we can all take away from this is, “Let him who thinks he stands take heed, lest he fall.” In Galations 5 it says, “If we walk in the Spirit, we will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh,” but no one walks in the Spirit 100% of the time, and when we step away, the world, the flesh, and the devil are all waiting to pull us down. And some of us have a bigger target painted on our backs than others in the enemy’s temptation program. We all need to be careful, to walk closely with the Lord, to feed on his word and seek out his presence throughout the course of every single day. Our faith is not in any living man, but in God, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

    I’m sure that Bob can now look back and see where he made choices that allowed him to end up in a place in which, I believe, he never intended to be (the sin itself, not just the consequences). Jesus showed his wisdom, mercy, and compassion when he told the crowd, “You who are without sin, throw the first stone.” To quote a favorite hymn, “Oh to grace how great a debtor daily I’m constrained to be.” As his brothers and sisters in Christ, our responsibility is to pray for everyone affected by this horrible situation, show the love, grace, mercy, and forgiveness which should characterize us as believers, and look to our own hearts.

    Tam Nal, Alice, and others, I’ll probably see you around (although we won’t know it 🙂 )

  225. John 20:29,

    Teaching is absolutely necessary. I happen to work a job where I can listen to podcasts all day long. This allows me to tap the massive archive of great teachings online. But I agree, not everyone does so well studying alone but I don’t think following the Senior Pastor model guarantees quality teaching.

    The months leading up to Bobs resignation his Sunday and Wednesday teaching was garbage. Many times I wondered if he even prepared. In one of his sermons he was on a tangent and said that if we (the congregation) were tuned into God he could be up there speaking nonsense and we’d still get something out of it. My thought at the time was “yeah, maybe you’re right but would you send your kids to go dig through a dumpster to find dinner or would you carefully prepare a meal for them?”

    It’s for this reason that I was so relieved when Tucker and Reggie took the stage I was like “yes! Finally something I can chew on.” And once Tom Velasco was introduced I have been moved all the more.

    My point is, when the entire “meal” is cooked and served by one pastor it often times lacks inspiration and nutrition. Many time the pastors is just doing his “job.” I would like to see a more well-rounded preaching and teaching base not a one man show. But the “one man show” is what the up and coming pastors aim for. It is the pinnacle objective of most career pastors. I think this is a serious flaw. Aren’t there many members in one body?

  226. I agree with Tam – the months – actually for a couple years – before Bob handed over the reigns to Tucker, his talks were filled with stories that he would tell about himself between sips from his water bottle. He originally at least presented a section of the Word each week that challenged us in our daily walk of faith and his stories would punctuate something in scripture; but they really began to get old once there was no more verse by verse study of the books in the Bible. We knew this change in teaching style was telling us something but exactly what we weren’t sure.

    I have to say, one reason we are surprised by this bombshell announcement is Bob seemed way too busy to have TIME for an extra marital affair. He had been constantly involved with multiple projects here in Boise and at his ranch in Garden Valley which were both church related and personal. Also, he was always going on missions and video-project trips – at least that’s what were told and believed – not only to India but around the globe. We were amazed how much he could accomplish here at home when he also had a travel itinerary that rivals a CEO of a global company. How the heck did he have time to add another relationship in the mix with all those projects?

    Another thought which relates to the timing of his transition and this announcement – Bob chose to hand over the reigns to Tucker at Easter time which is a major Christian holiday and not a typical time to announce such a thing to a church. Now here it is the weekend before Christmas and the people at CCB are hit with a part two they didn’t see coming. It’s like Merry Christmas everybody! Yes, he was getting pressure from the other half of his adultery team, but it’s like the worst Christmas to remember for a lot of people especially the worst for his family.

  227. So true J KELLER. It has been an awkward year. Especially for the Caldwell family and the people closest to the situation. My heart is broken for them. It may not sound like it from reading my posts but I’m just venting. I want to lash out at the establishment because in my mind it’s part of the problem. But really I’m just hurt. I want it all to go away. So, everyone please excuse me…I’m just boiling over here.

  228. When pastors quit studying the scriptures for themselves…quit allowing the Holy Spirit to speak to them, they lose touch with their congregations, and more importantly with what God would have them communicate. An ivory tower is a tough place from which to understand realty. Pastors need to understand from which their congregations come..

  229. praying for all who are now having to walk the walk thru this morass – as someone implied in this thread… keep your eyes upon Jesus Christ – He NEVER fails us

  230. As Victorious has already said, this comment by Tam nails it:

    “These pastors are usually surrounded by other junior pastors, in Bobs case all of them very young, none his equal in age and influence thus making him far too superior for correction”

    Sadly that was one of the main themes at the 2014 SPC, focus on the youth, train up the youth, let the youth be more involved in leadership. While all that is well and good, and necessary, it should not be at the expense of the older, more seasoned staff. Both young and old bring value to the table, and each brings something that the other doesn’t bring.

  231. I’ve been trying to process this. It’s not processing. Not that I’m in shock someone fell. It happens. It’s just that Calvary Chapel has been one of the best things that happened to our family and also one of the worst. Bob was part of the best times.

    When I first stepped in the doors of CC Boise in 1996, Bob still had a lot of hippie left in him. So did the church. The worship team was a couple of ladies, one on guitar and the other on flute, I think. Bob walked up to the podium in jeans, t-shirt (summer in Boise) flashed a ‘peace sign’ and asked us how we were doing. A full beard and hair to his shoulders, this was unlike any pastor I had ever seen.

    Bob is probably the only pastor that has used the word ‘bogart’ in a sermon. As in, no one gets to bogart all the gifts of the spirit, God gives liberally.
    Did we idolize Bob? Yes we probably did. Did I drink the Calvary kool-aid? Absolutely. I no longer am a young earth advocate; I can drink a glass of wine or enjoy fine bourbon or single malt and maybe a fine cigar, and not feel guilty.

    We learned to live in community with other believers, we grew in love and fellowship, bore each other’s burdens and celebrated our blessings. Some of the people we knew then are still very dear friends.

    Then in 2001, we moved to Washington State where we ran into the Calvary that is responsible for some of the deepest hurts and wounds my family has experienced.
    By 2004 we finally left the church when the pastor literally used two couples in the church to set me up in responding to specific questions and then used my words against me. We were devastated, this manipulation and pastoral abuse had been going on for 3 years and we literally didn’t know what to do.

    It was around this time that I came across the PP through the Christianity Today article on Skip. And what I found astounded me. I wasn’t the only one that this had happened to. As a matter of fact, what my family and I experienced was mild in comparison to some of the stories I read on this blog.

    I tried talking to my friends back at CC Boise, even spoke to an assistant pastor and an elder. But it was very clear: protect the dove. So I found an outlet for my story here.
    Sometime later, I received a call from one of the elders at the CC we no longer attended and wanted to talk. To my wife and me, he apologized for not standing up to the pastor in the midst of the abuse he was causing to us and to a number of other families and individuals. When the church attendance was half or less of what it was, he was recalled behind the Orange curtain for reprogramming.

    This elder then informed us that there was a new pastor and many of the families that had left were returning. I wasn’t ready to return, but my wife and daughter went and was received well and she said it felt safe. I went the following Sunday and after the service I went to shake hands with one of the other elders and mentioned that it was nice to be back. He looked me right in the eye and said, ‘Well Bart, we’re not sure about you. Because of what you have been posting on the PP, we’re not sure you will be a fit here.’
    Against my better judgement, my wife and I agreed to meet with the pastor and elders after everyone had left. I was then informed that if I wanted to fellowship with them, I would have to call the former pastor and be reconciled. Threw Matthew 18 at me. The pastor said we could call right now; he had the other pastor standing by. I looked at him and said, ‘So essentially, for me to return to this church I have to kiss his a**.’ This got me a stern look and then a repeat of Matthew 18. My wife is crying at this point and she said, ‘Don’t you realize what the man has done to our family?’ Then she started sobbing. The betrayal was complete. The first elder was able to appease his conscience from earlier actions, these minions were able to perform a righteous act of protecting the church, and we were left with nothing.

    Apparently, one of the penances that the original pastor had to do on his road to recovery and return to pastoral duties was to call each person he wronged and ask for forgiveness. I have yet to receive that call. His is a known CC name. I still have to forgive him at least a couple of times a month when the anger and bitterness just pops up.
    I also found out that I was trolled by the second pastor and his minions on the PP. I remember answering a request on a post for a private email exchange of stories. They misrepresented themselves and got me to name names.

    In 2011, we moved back to Boise. We were under no illusions that things would be the same, it had been 10 years since we had been to a Sunday service. What we found was a very young, urban, hip congregation. And Bob was hip now too. We probably went a dozen times, and what I realized and was saddened by is that weekend services had become the Bob Show. That’s how it looked to us on the outside looking in.

    We just don’t go to church anymore. That’s another long sad story. But you know what? My faith and understanding of His Grace is stronger than ever.
    I guess I needed to share my story one more time as I process this.

  232. Tam – I think what you have been sharing is from the heart and also some words of wisdom. Be encouraged!

  233. I noticed on the recording of the Sunday service at CCBoise, the new pastor said he was pastoring a church in downtown Boise before?

    Was that also a CC church, anyone know?

    As far as the vision that woman had during that service before he took over the reigns at CCB, makes me wonder if the timing of things could have been different IF he had gone directly to Bob Caldwell with that in March and asked him if it meant anything to him?

  234. Bart,

    Your story made me ache. We share much in common.

  235. Bart – “We just don’t go to church anymore.” That breaks my heart, I’m so sorry for the things that man has done to bring heart ache to your family. May you soon find a church that you can truly call home.

  236. Bart @ 232..Amen Brother.

    We are part of the Ecclesia, just not part of the local church.
    I totally understand where you’re coming from, and I think God does, too.

  237. I found this site on Monday the day after I sat in church and was shocked beyond words to hear about my pastor Bob Caldwell. It has been encouraging to read others thoughts, ideas, opinions and so now I would like to share my thoughts (good or bad) each of us are processing this horrific time in our church. I have incredible moments of sorrow, anger and very pissed off at Bob and his mistress. Right or wrong his is how I feel. And then in this cloud of unbelief and wondering if this is a nightmare there is peace that surpasses all understanding and it is Jesus.

    Both my husband and I have attended CC Boise for over 30 years, I was saved in this church and baptized by Bob. I have witnessed many different growing pains, changes/etc in all these years under Bob’s teaching of the word. God gifted Bob with an incredible gift of teaching, I saw lives changed and miracles happen under his pastor-ship. The Caldwell family is one of the most giving non-judgmental families you will ever know. Cathy, a beautiful woman with a true inner beauty of God’s love for others, I mean this literally. This family had no boundaries of helping and loving people.

    For a few years Bob’s messages changed and it was no longer a deep focus on the WORD, it was dead in many ways however God’s word will not be mocked. Now we know why, Bob was living a deceitful fraudulent life, a complete LIE. I could write a lot more but this is enough on Bob, he is facing unmanageable pain and suffering. I do believe he is in full repentance but his life is forever changed.

    Now we move to 2017 which will be rough but God is God and we will be restored in faith, grace and back into the WORD. Our pastors may be young, however they handled this situation with a spiritual maturity that was straightforward, amazing and comforting at the same time. If you have the opportunity to hear the message from the 18th, it was powerful and I do not mean about the adultery affair, put that aside this message the Tucker shared is powerful.

    Please all that read this just take a moment and lift this church up in prayer and the Caldwell family.

    Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid. John 14:27

  238. There Is Hope In Him,
    Thanks for the encouragement.

  239. This thread has has some great discussion points and its vital to be able to communicate to the people beyond the spin or little information they are going to get because that is the way we do church now. It is now up to each believer to get in the ‘School of Discernment’ and learn from each and every church experience you go through. This is a big one for most here and those of us who attended CC Boise for years feel its vital!

    Tam Mal – your comments have been so beautiful and well written they almost brought me to tears. I could have written them and have said those exact words to my friends who also left CC Boise in a slow group exodus. These are not the bitter, disenfranchised you hear tail of – they are people who have been there from the early days on Longmont, the tent days – serving in every corner of ministry there. They were invested richly along with their families and they’ve seen the writing on the wall for a long time. Could it be this so called crisis is a tool to get everyones attention off the celebrity and back on the Lord? They made him a King or allowed and enabled it and now this situation that seems like an isolated incident is happening. It did not “just happen in a vacuum or test tube.” It has been coming on for a long time. Each time an elder or staff member tried to address the power structure and were shot down it came closer to a test. Meeting after meeting – elder after well intentioned elder have been trying to get a grip on him for a long time now. The people didn’t know it because he was so very good at telling them he had men around him he was accountable to. Check! Do not look at the adultery as the big or only issue here but see the entire system that led to this big bang of an announcement. We have experienced all you talked about and were also tired of being faceless nameless numbers no matter how many social groups they tried to throw at us via Zipcode or Neighborhood Care Group.

    There is so much we could say here we have to hold back! When we first arrived at CC Boise we raved about how wonderful it was and I myself personally recruited many friends there. I was sure they were doing things right. I had hope! I started to pick up on the Red Flags fairly quickly because I was on staff at a mega-church before going there and I knew the signs! I was amazed at how quickly things seemed to pop up there overnight – like a coffee shop – a new thrift store location after the fire – a ministry here, a ministry there. That is till I asked my friends who were on staff if they knew about all these things before hand – Not! Bob singlehandedly ran and micro-managed almost everything there. It was his baby! I started to see he was a one-man band. He could do church with or without anyone else there – if fact those pesky elders often slowed things down. So instead of waiting on projects or spending money he would go ahead and do it and they had better look out! Yes men elders who could nothing to stop the bullet train just as I had seen before. The next stage is when elders are quickly replaced by younger and younger inexperienced men till you are choosing them out of the 5th Grade Classroom. A common solution. Is Tucker really ready to handle this very complicated situation? How can he possibly be ready after a short tenure at best. Even with counselors and advisors it is going to be a challenge. My thoughts after listening to the audio is Bob is still pulling some strings in a way they don’t see. There are never enough questions you can ask but who are you going to be able to ask? They sound like they are barely coping though trying their best. It is a system many believe the Lord is changing. If it ever was right to have a Celebrity Pastor King it isn’t now! How else can He get our attention except through situations such as these. As with Saul the Lord told the people You wanted a King – you’ve got one! Now deal with it! I’m praying for the people there who don’t know what just happened and may be swept away again by another one if they are not careful.

  240. I’m way tired, so this will be brief.

    I just want to thank all of you who have chosen to minister to each other and the community here.
    Blessings on all the new folks who have contributed and to our vets who have been here to help.
    Good work all the way around…

  241. S Miller,
    It is for this reason I am reluctant to join another church. It’s not going to be any different somewhere else. Institutional church is become like our own government, so big that it needlessly takes enormous amounts of money, manpower, and time to maintain it.

    It is not this way in other countries. I keep bringing this up because I am coming at this from an international perspective. If the Christians in other countries had just a small portion of what it takes to operate one of these big churches it would sustain them for years. But not here in America. Bigger is always better. We are constantly urged to bring our money to the storehouse, give our time to serve by passing out announcements, volunteer our time for the nursery, do this, do that! And we do it gladly because we feel it’s for the good of the kingdom and we think it is necessary. But it isn’t. It is only good and necessary for the institution. They need it to maintain this monstrosity and they need us to believe we need to do it.

    I have a friend that has gone to ccboise for years but lately she has been two-timing the church. She has been going to another local church on alternating weeks to get fed but because she is so committed to ccboise she still comes and serves when it’s her turn. Such commitment! Such love and hopeful loyalty. But the truth is what she does is just an insignificant drop in the enormous bucket it takes to operate ccboise. Just think if that same commitment and love was channeled for the kingdom of God! How would that change her life? How would that change the lives of people around? I feel like we are being used!

    The American institutional church is like a fancy 18 wheeler semi-truck loaded with all the goods and resources one could ever desire. Both tanks are filled with premium fuel. It is in high gear and at full throttle but sadly it sits atop a large patch of ice and barely inches forward. For all the fuel spent to make this big truck go the tires just spin in place.

    If our humble brothers and sisters around the world could see this they would be ashamed.

    There I go boiling over again.

  242. Tam – venting is a form of processing and although we all process differently it is better to feel your feelings and speak about them like you are doing rather than stuff them in the name of trying not to sound hurt or bitter. It seems like those that get it up and out heal faster as we have experienced having come from another church similar to this one before we arrived at CCB. And this BLOG seems like a relatively safe place to share how you really feel. There will always be that voice that tells you that you are bitter if your language isn’t filled with sweetness and misinterprets honest assessment of what is happening as unforgiveness. Yes we forgive but it’s a process and doesn’t happen over night. And we have to forgive the same thing often unlike the Lord who forgives fully the first time. But we work through the offense, not by glazing it over with platitudes, but by being honest with what the offense has done to us. And yes we move on from there but it’s sometime a slow journey. Being honest about how this is making you feel doesn’t mean you aren’t concerned about the Caldwell family or the church or that you can’t pray for them.

    I feel the same as you were saying @221. There are many like you who are disillusioned with the institutional church – my friend Sam @240 and me included – so much so that there has been a book written that is the result of a quantitative study by a Christian professor from the University of Colorado (Josh Packard Phd) and co-authored by one of his students (Ashleigh Hope) who both had a passion to find out what is going on causing this exodus which could no longer be ignored. Anyway, he is calling the people of this mass movement out of the IC “The Dones”. We aren’t done with Jesus and we are remaining strong in our faith but we are done with a system that has become increasingly broken. Pastor after pastor is falling into some kind of moral failure – sexual or financial – because this hierarchy model that gives too much power to one man and to one family is not producing the kind of good fruit that the Bible admonishes us to have. With all due respect to Dual Citizen, who is emersed in this system and speaks with what he truly believes is best, why should you need to get permission from a leader or assistant leader to be “sent out” from a group of people who barely know your name? We live in America and we still have the freedom to move about in freedom as indivuals and as Christians. Even Bob was known to say we are free to come and go as God leads and CCB would only be one of the churches we would be attending in our lifetime. He said this at a New to the Fellowship dinner. I did like that about him that he didn’t believe in church membership for that reason.

    The key now is to pray to find fellowship where the Lord leads you and that may be with just a few understanding friends who care for you enough to pray for you and your needs and the needs of your family. As my friend Sam often says the Lord wants us to grow up in all things and not remain children any longer. It’s time for His people to hear from Him and walk in discernment rather than by what one man is telling them to do. The walk of faith isn’t easy but the Lord promises to hold our hands as we trust Him.

    There is hope in the Lord who promises to lead us in the way we should go and counsel us with His eye upon us Ps 32:8. I could hear hope at the end of Bart’s story @232 – he and his family are standing strong in faith even after the bad treatment experienced at the hand of an insensitive and uncaring leadership. At least you could see through some of what was going on, Bart, by the time you came back and sadly saw the Bob show. We can certainly learn from these experiences even though they are so painful.

  243. P.s. We totally get the boiling over thing – we are trying to hold ourselves back!

  244. Exactly Tam! We so get where you are coming from and exactly what you are saying -we have begun to call it “The Industrial Church Complex” for want of a better term or the Corporate Church or IC – Institutional Church. Surely this can’t be what the Lord wants or had in mind. Unfortunately we are exporting this concept around the world. If anyone thinks we are only talking about Calvary Chapel they are mistaken. There are dozens of blogs from SGM Survivors to The Warburg Watch that have had the exact same comments and stream of thinking. The story of what happened at Mark Driscoll’s Church with his elders is amazing reading! It is obvious to anyone with spiritual eyes & a vague idea of the times we are living in that we are at a crossroads of ‘Church’ and what that means or stands for. For all the commenters who say we need to go and be taught somewhere I know where you are coming from and have said the same thing in the past. The issue is where is that happening exactly? Most churches are led by leaders who attend multiple church conferences led by other mega- church leaders. I attended many taught by some of the biggest leaders in the country as well as International Stars and you quickly see this is where the toxic germs are transferred. It so reminded me of my business days when you went to seminars and conferences and learned new strategies and ideas. I felt the same jealousy and competition and idol worship for the real stars who got to teach to the big audiences in the best time slots. Only the biggest and brightest were summoned for those events. It is about the numbers in these worlds and the ideas that are gleaned from those conference meetings are than translated to even the smallest churches. This is where satelite churches came into vogue, or care groups were sold as the solution to staying in control of huge groups. We saw the idea of putting ATM’s in the lobby for tithing tossed around and the coffee shop became a must have for all church lobbies. It would shock you where these trends are trending from. So yes Tam you are seeing something that should make all our blood boil and shake us up out of our complacency. When my eyes were opened to this the Lord also opened my eyes to why He often calls us out of our world to find Him again. You’re in good company with Moses and Paul and David. Jesus Himself is the greatest example of all – going against the trend and bucking the religious system because it had gotten stale and old.

  245. Wow J KELLER!
    You mean that these feelings I have about the system is an actual thing that someone wrote a book about?! What a relief! I thought I might be being one of “those guys,” you know what I mean?

    Thank you for those words of wisdom.

  246. You too, S MILLER.

    I’ll look into this stuff.

  247. Yes that was my reaction too! Like we aren’t alone in this after alll and there are others like us! We were taught very extensively at our former church against being a Lone Ranger and how important it is to be safely undercover or under authority and anyone who begs to differ – or question that – is a maverick potentially leading others astray. So it’s not like we were looking for this development in our walk. Later we realized it was cult-like training but it was sure hard to shake once we started thinking for ourselves. We didn’t want to repeat the same mistake we made at the church we had come from – giving too much esteem to the pastor and his family which I realized later was a form of idolatry and had to repent of that – so when we got to CCB even though Bob could have been idol material we knew we just couldn’t participate that way knowing what it did to our hearts before. But if you talk about that to people they think you are rebellious. Anyway, the book contains interviews with people who feel they are done with it all and how they got there. The authors don’t seem to have an agenda since they themselves are involved in their own churches but they felt the need to study this as sociologists. I would encourage anyone to read it who feels the church system is not working for them anymore. It’s only 143 page and you can get it on Amazon.com. Published in 2015

  248. Indeed, you are far from being alone! It’s a huge relief when you discover that!

    And you’re not the first ex-CCers to smell a rat. And my bet is that you won’t be the last.

    Below is a link to others with a similar experience to yours. Of course not all CCs are like this. Unfortunately, you got involved in one that was. God bless you on your sojourn.

    https://culteducation.com/group/857-calvary-chapel/3430-calvary-chapel-visitor-commentss.html

  249. J Keller, so you stay in the IC after knowing what you know. Why? Are you satisfied and equipped?

  250. I just read the article about Josh Packards book. Oh my goodness! I am a “Done!” That’s is exactly me! What do I do?!

  251. Wow, just read a Q&A with Josh Packard on Patheos. I am part of ‘The Dones’ as well. He had some good points.
    I don’t miss the music though.OK, I miss the music from about 15 years ago. Quieter.
    One of the things I realized about church that made it easier to be done, was that every Sunday I left church feeling like I hadn’t done enough.
    I hadn’t prayed enough, served enough, studied enough, evangelized enough, or gave enough. You work all week, putting up with all the world can throw at you, paying the bills, raising the kids, and then go to the one place where you hope to find peace only to be told you still haven’t done enough.
    I’m really beginning to believe that three of the most overlooked words in the Bible are: “It is finished!”

  252. Bart,
    Perhaps you might enjoy the word from Hebrews:

    “So then, there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God, for whoever has entered God’s rest has also rested from his works as God did from his.”

  253. Thank you Jean, I am going to hold on to that one.

  254. Praying for those in boise
    Bart
    Tam nal
    J keller
    S miller
    Oh no
    Alice
    Believer in boise
    Duel citizen
    Sad news
    Praying for you all we are sad for your loss and pain but happy to have you here

  255. Tam – no we left CCB in 2014 – my heart was only there for a few years after we left our former church that we served in for over 10 years – attended there 20 – our children were raised in that church. We attended CCB for 8-10 years I think. When we came to CCB we were so delighted with how different it was than our other church and like I mentioned before we admired how much Bob got done and how trendy he was in a good way. We called CCB the Good Church. But even so I didn’t have the stomach or even the leading of the Lord to get involved not wanting to repeat the former scenario. I did wonder what was wrong with me though – I stayed home on Sunday and watched Bob on TV at 9:30 but would go to church every other Sunday. I remember deciding I’m not going to fight this anymore and will not force anything. I was done with that method. It’s like forcing yourself to love someone out of obligation rather than truth. If I feel to go I will and if I need to stay home I will. When I did go to church I felt the need to sit in the foyer with my friend – I was a foyer person lol. We used to see Cathy sitting out there too sometimes. Was she a foyer person too we wondered? Anyway my husband still wanted to be part of a church like he was in our former church so he jumped right in and got about as close as you can be serving serving serving. (Even when 2 people are married their individual faith walk is an individual thing so we chose to give grace to each other during this time. Our children were grown so we didn’t have that factor to worry about like we would have if they were younger). My husband being up close did afford him the opportunity to observe. My friend reminded me he is in his own school. At first he celebrated the differences between the two leadership styles but as time passed he began to see striking similarities in how church is set up. Like you said it’s like a huge ocean liner or fuel tanker truck designed to fit the needs of the one in charge of it and the cost of keeping it going isn’t just financial. It dawned on us that this was the same model but the style was different. Hello. We liked Bobs style better but he was driven by the same motivations it was seeming. But how else is someone going to really know and this was not only my husbands school but ours as we looked on. Bob thought I was jaded and one time asked me why Christians like me become that way. Kind of ringing in my ears with this new development lol. In reiterating our former church experience – the money issues and such – he said ya but does it always have to go like that? Wasn’t able to answer that then but today I can say yes Bob in this system it does go like that. You are a tax exempt 501c3 and free to use church money in whatever way you want to. And the money is entrusted to the driver of the big ship by the faithful people who want to give to God. Don’t get me started.

    All that to say – finding that qualitative study – I accidentally said quantitative before – in the Church Refugee book really helped define where we are in relation to the church. It made us realize it’s ok to just meet in a small group with people you care for and care for you. My husband was especially appreciative of this sociological study having given his all to not only one but two churches in varying degrees respectively- he wanted to buy a case of them as gifts! Since we do want to stay in tune with Gods Word and not forsake the assembling we meet every Sunday we can with our friends and have seen so many answers to prayer for our families and in our various careers since we started praying for one another. We don’t exactly know what we are doing but the Lord has given us various study themes. The first one we did was The Story which is an overview of the Bible. Each week we did a chapter – there’s a workbook study guide. We thought it would be good for new Christians in case we led anyone to the Lord!

    If you ever want to go to coffee we are open but no pressure. Just want to be available in case you could use another friend or two. And let’s extend that invitation to anyone here in Boise reading who we can lend an ear to. Not trying to start a new cult church either although some may beg to differ. But in all honesty what has helped us the most in healing is having each other to process all this together with in freedom and no fear; venting and listening and researching and studying and going through the Bible at BSF on Wednesdays too so we stay in the Word in a methodical way that has helped us too. (Yes they meet in an IC but one of the rules is you can’t talk about or promote your church thankfully.) Yes we are discovering that you can meet as friends without becoming a 501c3 thank you!
    👀☕️✝️

  256. Reading some of the comments from those who were a part of CCB regarding a marked difference in Bob’s teaching enthusiasm and qualitative delivery, leads me to believe that this was going on for some time.

    I’m always amazed at how God’s people in a church setting like that are far more intuitive and discerning than they give themselves credit for. Yet, the system and structure so often inhibits them from being able to say anything.

    Not too mention the enormous pressure on the pastor to not be transparent about where is really at and what he is really going through.

  257. Folks, how ’bout some paragraph breaks? Huge blocks of text don’t work well on blogs.

  258. Xenia – there is some real out pouring of hearts taking place here, grammar rules can be overlooked 🤓

  259. Bart – that was how we felt when leaving our former church! I remember leaving feeling worse than when I came and it dawned on me this couldn’t be what the Lord meant when He told us to meet with each other. It wasn’t always like that but it became like that. Eventually it occurred hey I don’t have to live like this – I am living as an American in the land of the free home of the brave! I can choose! Looking back it was becoming the time to go – we each came to this on our own, by the way, in individual timing – no one was pressuring the other.

    I was always going through weird painful stuff trying to get myself in line with what I was supposed to be at that church and it was painful so I would periodically ask the Lord if we were to be there. It never was the best fit but there were obviously good things too or I couldn’t have stayed. But my husband and children saw me cry in pain more than once. The Lord used the music as a source of pain for me the most. I had died to myself over and over but through it all the Lord gave me a different way to be musical out of it – a window – and blessed me with that instead. I didn’t get much support from people in the church because it didn’t have anything to do with the church. The Lord used all of it but it doesn’t excuse any bad behavior experienced there. In my personal journey of forgiveness I remember that and it’s easier to let it go. I can also see more clearly, now that I am older, that I needed to grow as a musician and they wanted the best of the best. Yes only the best for them. Unless you were related to the pastor then it didn’t seem to matter as much. I would’ve never made it in the show it is now though in most churches of that style. To be fair and honest, I did develop as a singer there because of all the worship experience so like I said there were good things and I’m grateful they gave me a place to use my gift for as long as they did. When the Lord allowed them to shut the door on that I learned other things that I am grateful for. Like my friend says, we are always in school. Now I’m in a new one. Letting go of my music for different reasons but I am learning I can trust the Lord with the gift He gave and it’s up to Him with how to use it. Or whether I need to replace my piano with a big comfy chair for that corner of the room. I’m so totally aware I wouldn’t even have the music if it weren’t for Him giving it – my Reason to sing in the first place….

    I do miss worship with others – that intimate setting type but I don’t miss the hype and the frenzied high it became. I am so glad I don’t have to endure any rock star worship I hear about either with the light shows. Neither of the churches had rock star worship but I think the former one would have it if they could. What I did like about Calvary is they kept it simple.

    But in my school I think the Lord had to remove the worship completely so He could clean it out and as He puts it back in it is only about Him even just here in my living room with no one else but Him. I couldn’t even listen to worship for awhile but He has gently given me a few artists I can hear that seem pure in their sincerity. Not that I can judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart but He knows me and what I can take. Music is a very subjective personal thing – what works for one may not work for the other.

    Ok bye for now – it is snowing outside in Boise and beautifully white but I have errands👀

    Oh one last thought. My favorite Christmas cd this year is Unto Us by JJ Heller. Sweet and unassuming and captures the Spirit of Christmas in an endearing way. You can hear her on iMusic if you have an iPhone or Amazon Music too I think. I bought her Cd for two friends. Another I love is Christmas Worship Vol 2 by Paul Baloche – I had to buy that for myself and a friend too but you can hear it online as well. And with that I bid you farewell till later fellow Refugees (and those who are not refugees as well)
    🎄🎵☕️

  260. My mind is blown! It is all so clear to me now. J KELLER, thank you for sharing. All of this has really opened my eyes.

    I will consider taking you up on the coffee invitation after the New Year.

    To be honest I am scared. I love the Lord with my whole heart and I want to be a productive member of His kingdom. I want to bless Him with the fruit of my life because He deserves it. But now I feel really shakey and weak. I have lost all confidence in everything but God and His Word.

    Oh, God. Please lead me! Guide me through this mess. Be my teacher. Be my pastor. Be my worship leader…my friend. I have no place to go but to you. Don’t turn me away, I pray!

  261. Col46 it has nothing to do with grammar rules. If they want people to read what they have written, they need to break it up a bit. Most people will not read dense blocks of text.

  262. Tam – Isaiah 41.10, 42.10, 43.2, and 19 come to mind.

    Take comfort and Lord Bless you!

  263. Xenia – I am…and it is heart breaking

  264. while i understand what Xenia is saying about the paragraph thing, it’s so worth the effort to read these comments – they’ve given me much to think about as well as bringing up memories (i suspect the value their contents is what prompted the comment, eh Xenia?)…

    it must be difficult to edit when your heart is pouring out some of your deepest thots

  265. I read through all my comments and it really shows what a roller coaster I’ve been on.

    I cycled from sadness to anger. I showed brave determination then fear. I lashed out in desperation then finally came some revelation. What a crazy mind-bend!!

    If any ccboise readers can relate maybe this will comfort you:

    I was laying on the couch thinking over the type of things talked about in this thread. I lay there with this sad blank stare. I just couldn’t find a hopeful resolution to anything. After a long while I realized my eyes were fixed on this painting I have on my wall. In it is this tall lighthouse perched on a precipice overlooking a stormy sea. The sky black with these huge ominous clouds.

    The Lord spoke to my heart and said “the church (Institutional church) is the lighthouse. A building built by man, however it does serve a purpose. It warns passing ships of dangerous rocks. Don’t despise the lighthouse, it does what they made it to do. But, I am not the lighthouse. Look out at sea.”
    In the painting, out in the midst of these dark clouds and black water is a place where light breaks through the clouds. It lights up a small patch of the water below with a beautiful golden light. The place where the light touches the sea is at peace, the water many beautiful shades of blue. The Lord spoke to my heart again and said “There I am! Come to me!”

    I thought “oh lord I WILL come to you … but that water looks awfully dangerous. It’s probably cold too. I’m not a good swimmer. What about sharks?!” Like my comments in this thread I started by making a bold proclamation “I WILL come to you!” but my heart shrank back in fear. Just then in a beautiful moment of blessed imagination I saw myself in the bow of an old wooden row boat as it bravely tacked into the oncoming waves, away from the shore where the lighthouse stood. I was headed directly towards the patch of light. It was exhilarating as the boat breached these massive waves. I looked back to see the strong arms of my Lord firmly on the oars of this old boat propelling us forward.

    We are not alone. He is with us. Go to Him!

  266. As a family we attended ccboise for several years. Our daughter is friends with many of the youth pastors and went to ccbibleschool in murrietta.

    The Caldwell family is loving and wonderful, Kathy is a great mother and GMom.
    Bob was a spirt filled paster, great father, GPa and had a growing church, and school. We watched as it changed over time, with eagle, kuna, meridian all becoming great church bodies. Allowing families to have a neighborhood home church.

    Overtime ccbosie had become kind of hip, Bob was on TV, traveling to groups in Europe and India, the church had a great international presence. Bob was a lead at the Sr. Pastors conference. Many of the young plasters seeked Bobs council and wisdom.

    This sin has had and will have great consequences for a mans life of work. I don’t know what the lord will do with this but pray for families involved and troubled with this sin.

    I will say that the woman’s name doesn’t need to be mentioned, but there is too much speculation and gossip. Since this happened years ago and now is coming out many are looking and questioning a large cross section of his life.

    if you have known Bob, he is often regarded in glowing terms from the works he has done for the lord. But now knowing that this is true, it shakes me. Any man can be tempted and now 40 some years of work are all in turmoil, lives, missions etc. I heard pastors fall from sin but, now I know that it can happen to anyone

    Trust in the Lord with all your heart
    and lean not on your own understanding;
    in all your ways submit to him,
    and he will make your paths straight.

  267. a question: which is less pleasing to the Lord, the faithful servant who, for a variety of reasons messes up his personal life (and in doing so creates collateral damage) or the personality folk amassing great 5 figure personal wealth off of “performing” for Jesus in front of the cameras? … not talking about the pastors of large churches’ perhaps too large salaries, but rather those who plead, “send in your $$s – any amount will help – so we can keep spreading the gospel” – a gospel which seems to center around how good and talented they are…
    as a Christian i think that i’d rather face the Lord having committed adultery than as one having a 5 figure personal bank account built off of “tithes and offerings,” i think … thinking … thinking…

  268. Reading all these comments from folks from CCB, it reminds me of a time when we had the same thoughts…before we attended CCCM.

    Thank you all for sharing your thoughts here with us all…it has given me much to remember and re-consider.

  269. Sorry I fell so far behind in this discussion…

    JM, post #130 supports my point about exploring the possible need for just outing all of the truth and not hiding any of it. Privacy and cover up, synonymous. Healing begins after the flushing of a wound.

    But then I read “Believer in Boise’s” post #225 which addressed my earlier desire for a discussion about outing all the players, namely the other side of this affair. I was wrongfully making the mistress a part of Bob’s full truth and part of a cover up. Pleased re-read that if necessary before blasting me with non-thought through statements. But that’s why I called for a discussion, not a “hanging”.

    I wasn’t thinking about whether the mistress had come forth and confessed on her own. I guess the idea behind Biblical correction is that each party owns their own junk. So if one party chooses to cover up, they need to be approached by two and asked to repent, and then make it public. Did she come forth and repent?

    So PBC sinned and he chose to repent publicly, she sinned… if she did repent good, if not… where do we stand on this Biblicly in terms of Church discipline? We keep kicking around King Dave as an example and yet we all know who Bathsheeba is. Just curious the comparrison here doesn’t seem to serve. If Bathsheeba had refused King Dave what might have happened to her or her family? King David did have her husband killed, so maybe we can say she is cleared for her side of the affair, but then again others have chosen to risk their lives to obey God in scripture, maybe she was guilty in her own way? I don’t think the Bible is clear on this. Bob, I’m guessing didn’t threaten anyone and make them have an affair with him so I’m guessing she is as guilty as he, and yet she gets a pass? Again, this is not for my own curiosity, I would prefer not to know who she is unless it is for her good, the churches good, the will of the Holy Spirit etc. It just seems as we aim our attention at PBC, she should get equal attention. Thus my name on this post, why just apply Biblical discipline to one party. To anyone’s knowlege has she repented, been asked to step down, under any kind of church discipline or was PBC spell to strong and it’s just all his fault? How do we divide this?

    S Miller Your post #240 IS EXACTLY what I’m asking about, Biblical procedure followed in love, without a bunch of crying about keeping anything private because it makes someone else uncomfortable. In other words, a procedure that would apply to anyone.

    Let me state again, after being involved and employed at CC off and on for over 20 years, I have not lost any respect for PBC. Because I never gave him the type of respect that made him anything more than a friend, an older Christian who has gone before me. He’s never been my god, or super pastor. He’s a guy WITH some pretty good hang-ups which has made me like him better. He and I have disagreed massively on some minor things, and I left serving under him years ago because of his leadership style and yet we bring our family there on Sundays still after serving at another church for his messages.
    I’m not applauding his sins, I’m just not as let down as some. I think he has always been a sincere believer and disciple of Christ, and I bet he has not always done it “right”. Sheesh, who could for 40 years of ministry? And now this is done, let’s do what the Bible says. Follow up, restore if possible, admonish correctly. Heal, restore trust among new or weaker believers. Let’s do it in love, not cover up like Adam or Dave.

    I’m deeply upset at how this affects the families, the flock, etc. And my hope is in the Lord to do what Tucker said, use this as an awesome message and example of God’s grace. In addition to the grace, WE have some work to do in terms of governing our church bodies. We need to rightly divide the word and apply it the best we can.

    I finally heard the letter/sermon. Let them continue on their course of action, keep all in prayer, support one another like this blog allows.

    Bart, you and I are long time friends and have had many discussion about your journey’s in the CC network. I’m sorry brother if this has added to your wounds, let’s grab lunch together soon. So much to digest here still, while I’m not upset with any person (him or her) it’s still a lot to process.

  270. Now my turn to catch up on this snowy Christmas eve in Boise.

    J Keller #256 – my wife and I have talked about wanting to meet with other like minded believers (done with the IC) but doing so in a way that doesn’t feel like we’re doing ‘church’ or a ‘home fellowship’. You know, the standard agenda: a couple of worship songs, a prayer and then a message or study, then a round robin of prayer requests, then 20 minutes of prayer for our list, a couple more songs, and then go home. I’m not saying there is anything wrong with that, I think we crave something more organic and fluid, you know kind of like real life.

    Tam Nal #266 – I knew a guy years ago that had a t-shirt that said: “Don’t go to Church – Be the Church”.

    Sad Today #267 – This happened years ago! What! I haven’t listened to the audio of the sermon, but I was under the impression this was a recent thing. How many years ago did this happen?

    Drawing #270 – This hasn’t added to my wounds, just brought back memories and feelings. I don’t know if I’ll ever be rid of the memories of hurt and betrayal this side of heaven, it’s just not fun when they resurface. So I am not reeling or feeling betrayed by Bob. I haven’t had any skin in the game in so long that I almost feel like an outsider looking in. Do you have my contact info? If so let’s get together.

    Some of my fondest memories of CCB were before the move to the current location, while we were still in that little church on Longmont. It was there that the church first started their Saturday evening services. Both Sunday services were packed and we had a lot of HP and Micron shift workers that a Saturday night service would be beneficial. So my wife and I started attending Saturday night. Those first few months were great. Not many showed up and we met in the fellowship hall in the basement. Bob showed up in jeans, a white t-shirt and flip flops. We were all seated around tables and chairs and when Bob stood at the podium he looked around and said this isn’t going to work. He came down to a table and we all gathered around. For several months it was like having a small Bible study with Bob. Others heard about it and next thing we know we’re up in the sanctuary and back to a regular church service.
    I miss that. It was real and personal and you shared it with others.

    I would like to meet the Boise people on here. I probably don’t know most of you, except Drawing (can’t figure out who you are yet).

    Merry Christmas everyone!
    Oh and – GO HAWKS!

  271. I’m going to address the situation regarding the other side of this affair briefly,then be out for the weekend.
    Based on the information I have, I don’t believe it would serve any purpose to identify the woman involved.
    This was a complex situation that played out over an extended period of time and the dynamics involved are not simple.
    To this point, I believe the church has handled a very difficult situation well…

  272. Thank you Dusty for the prayer for the people in Boise, especially those close to the situation and may have questions that are shaking their faith. May they get to the other side of this stronger as mature Christians as they lean on Jesus as the true rock of refuge and may He be their comfort in this time of pain.

    Please pray for the entire Treasure Valley, anyone who gave consideration to Jesus because of Bob’s voice on TV, the radio and the CCB website, who could now consider Christianity as just another religion that holds no power. I guess we can trust that if the Lord was drawing a person through one voice, He will continue to draw that person; after all God is not surprised by this.

  273. Xenia,

    My apologies for the big blocks of texts. If I have more to say I will make an effort to break the paragraphs up a bit. I can see what you mean because I will skim a big paragraph to see if the subject matter applies to me or not. If it does, I read the whole thing. But, if the discussion is between two or three people and I’m not involved in it and I don’t understand it, like Orthodoxy for instance, I move on. But I do that even if it is a short paragraph too if I’m not interested in the subject.

    Anyway, point taken.

  274. Michael,

    I disagree with you, sin is sin and adultery is complex and the dynamics are never simple it is sin. Many sisters/women are affected by this and there were 2 not just 1 involved. There is no hate towards her but she needs to ask forgiveness. As # 267 shared there is gossip and speculation. There should not be any, there needs to be complete openness and sincere repentance. We do not need details we need healing. The church has a great responsibility now even more so in protecting women in leadership/ministry so that this does not ever happen again.

  275. Tam @261 Yes let’s do that after the new year. How do we do this without making our contact info public? Funny you cried out to the Lord to be your pastor – I finally came to that too.

    Bart@271 I’m borrowing your catch up format. Would like to meet you and your wife too sometime. So let’s also do coffee after the new year.

    SadToday@267 Feeling for you in all of this. It is indeed a shaking experience to have to adjust one’s perception of someone you have trusted. Like Bob said in the word Tucker read it was a sacred trust. But the Lord won’t betray that ever and more than ever our sacred trust must belong to Him alone. That scripture comes to mind that anything that can be shaken will be shaken and this must be the season for that in the church universal. The good news is that which remains intact i.e. whatever God allows to remain He put there in us in the first place. He who began a good work in each of us, including Bob, is faithful to complete that work.

    Michael @241 and all the other kind people here – thank you for so graciously giving us, the Boise people, a place to process and discuss and meet each other.

    Have a merry Christmas everyone! May Jesus be very real and close as we celebrate His birth and His gift of redemption that He planned from the beginning!

  276. Thank you J Keller for your closing comment, it is PERFECT. Merry Christmas everyone.

  277. JM, shame on you for spreading such lies, like Pastor Chuck having committed adultery. You better repent if you don’t want to be held accountable by God Almighty for your horrible lies. That is so evil of you, the man is dead and can’t defend himself.

  278. Christa:

    I believe JM was referring to the possibility Chuck Smith covered up the adultery of another person…not that HE, himself, committed it.

  279. Christa,

    It’s not a lie and it’s about the worst kept secret in CC.

  280. I stand corrected, then…and this is the first I’ve ever heard anything like this!

  281. Michael
    Can you clarify the worst kept secret in CC? Are you confirming it is about Chuck Smith or some other International minister – there have been comments on both in this thread.

    As I told my good friend who was on staff for years – it is very freeing when you understand you don’t need to cover for them any longer. At our former church they used a book written by John Bevere titled “Undercover”. We also had to attend a seminar – approximately 8 hours on a Saturday mandated. We also were required to fill in notebooks and sign a pledge to the church and Pastor at the end of it if you were going to be a leader in the church.

    If you haven’t heard of of it or attended one it is fascinating cult- style organizational school to get people in line by whip. It basically uses the “Moses Model’ as the basis for why you are to be submitted under your leader in lock-step. If you do not submit something bad will happen to you like MIriam. You are not to ask questions, rock the boat or ever ever question the leader. It was extreme and it was the answer to a getting your people in line to submit with a fear based theory of scriptures. When people asked questions about the seminar they were quickly labeled as not following the pastor, rebels or lone ranger Christians. This is for real in this day and age in the Treasure Valley.

    So when we eventually left there and started attending CCBoise we were so deceived by the progressive looking style of Bob and the pastors wearing matching goatees that we had no idea we were under another Moses Model of leadership. As I told my friends who were feeling whipped from CCB – don’t feel bad it fooled us too! It was an even more subtle form of abuse as it was undetectable from the radio or tv ministry – much like methane gas.

    So I adopted the mantra that there is no question you can’t ask! The test is not so much in getting an answer that is ‘right’ whether it be on finances or who is really in power or control. This will quickly reveal if you have challenges, road block or chairs thrown in your path like in a chase scene out of a movie- something is wrong. If you get the runaround on any question and feel a check in your spirit – as in that doesn’t seem right than that is your answer that things are being hidden.

    It has taken years for them to get deeply held belief out of them. They don’t have to cover for Bob or leadership decisions any longer even if you were part of ‘making them happen.’ That is the biggest turning point a believer can make because you are no longer enabling the systems of lies or cover ups. You are accountable to God alone. If anyone asks you to go against that you have an issue no matter how sweet the information is layed out or what fear based lie you are being threatened with.

    The churches who use the 501c3 Status have agreed as a non-profit who doesn’t pay taxes in America that they will freely disclose public records and anyone should have information publicly as to who is really on their board, their true budget – and other information.

    I have learned how to access legal information & have taught others about how to find records online with the State Repository to see who actually owns your church or who is on board that controls it. Many nice Christians are under the delusion and I say that with sadness that the Elders are running the church or have a vote or say on the budget or major decisions. They are confusing that with a Congregational Style of Church where every member has a vote and you vote on the Elders or Deacon Board. That is very rare today!

    Now your independent style church is just that – Independent from accountabiity. It is purposely set up that way so the congregation can no longer gain control or overtake or fire the Pastor. There is a legal filing of who is on the real Board of Directors. Any lawyer will confirm this. Until we grow up and ask more questions we may never know the truth the sets us free.

    It is interesting how many churches have a Board with 3 member on it as in the Senior Pastor – his wife and maybe a child or son in law. So do you know who is or has been on the board of CCBoise. Ready set go! Let us know what you find. It will be interesting!

  282. Unfortunately I remember the John Bevere Undercover day-long seminars only too well. They hosted it 2 or 3 times. On one of the weekends we were on a romantic getaway for our anniversary and interrupted by a phone call from the pastor asking us to come back and attend because of how it would look to others if one of the leaders wasn’t in attendance. It would appear we weren’t “undercover”. My husband stuck to his guns and we stayed but it cast a shadow on our celebration. Part of our school though – these types of things add up and finally tell you you are in a wacworld of woo woo.

    My husband has a particular loathing for the teachings of John Bevere – just mention that book and his eyes start twitching. There is another one called The Bait of Satan which could be where the Christian community embraced the legalistic doctrine that you aren’t allowed to feel your feelings when you are offended and can’t say anything unless it’s positive. He takes what the Bible admonishes on offenses and forgiveness but removes the human element from how to deal with bad behavior.

  283. Good memories J Keller or Exhibit A. This is case building to teach and show other Christians to watch for these signs. We know you did not have ‘Undercover Seminars” at Calvary but it was done much the same. When you can step back and review what happened to you so you weren’t allowed to ask questions or too beat down to do it you start to understand the psychological implications.

    Cult-like thinking or teaching doesn’t just happen at the big name cults! It is more subtle than that these days.

    Once again what happened to Chuck if covered up is pivotal! Thats what led to al lot this if true and if covered up by his leadership over the years. Who can see that? Its the canary in the coal mine!

  284. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone

  285. Let him without a stone throw Cynthia.

  286. No, that’s not what Cynthia is saying, don’t be rude. She’s saying we all have sin, we should all get stoned.

  287. That verse is continually taken out of context and misapplied in these situations.

    The reality is that there are different biblical standards to occupy the office of the pastor.
    They have been flagrantly broken in this situation.
    We’re not talking about “everyones” sins, we’re speaking specifically of this mans sin.

    That is not “stone throwing” and I’m weary of the pious acting like it is.

  288. DrawingintheSand,

    It sure seems to me that Cynthia was basically saying “Because none of us has no sin, let’s not expose Pastor Chucks sin (if there is one),” by her comment.

    This would, if the case, imply a desire to hide truth that needs to be exposed and could well be critical to understanding some of the “tangles” of the system.

  289. DrawingintheSand,

    It sure seems to me that Cynthia was basically saying “Because none of us has no sin, let’s not expose Pastor Chucks sin (if there is one),” by her comment.

    This would, if the case, imply a desire to hide truth that needs to be exposed and could well be critical to understanding some of the root issues/problems of the system.

  290. crud…sorry for double post…internet is horribly slow right now.

  291. Stephen, I wasn’t making a real comment. Just a tongue in cheek joke about getting stoned, which I really do not support, just throwing a little humor out there!

  292. i think i see something a little clearer about throwing stones today… the point is not one of not dealing with sin, rather it is addressing attitude … if one’s heart is not breaking when a situation such as the topic here on the thread comes to light, if one has an “aha, gotcha and now we’re going to shame you!” attitude then that stone condemns the one who hurls it at the sinner…

  293. Was away. Much to catch up on. Somehow landed on #287 first. Michael, you made me laugh so hard that I am seeking to invest in Depends. Wish others could divide this issue properly. Many of us are tired of being falsely accused of a personal harshness. All you are showing is a fidelity to what the Bible actually says about this sort of situation. You are correct.

  294. I for one have been more contemplative in my comments about how we should go about addressing church discipline, which truths should be shared, what is considered biblical fairness in the interest of 1. Being Biblicly obedient to the best of our ability, 2. Restoring whatever can be restored, and 3. How to build better accountability around any model. I’m not interested in stones. In fact, let’s be clear. We’re not looking to kill anyone by any method. Addressing your attitude, my attitude, and everyone else’s as we deal with this tragedy seems like a distraction to me and does not the serve the purpose of most of this conversation. I know some have expressed anger as they deal with their own shock, I know I lean in one direction in terms of coming forth with more truth while lean the other way in terms of providing more discretion. Hopefully none of us are out here casting stones in either direction but are seeking wisdom to exercise love.

    And to those who wish to cast stones… I can’t judge you either sometimes processing grief includes making comments on a blog… a far cry from casting a real stone or wanting someone to die over their sin. This is a safe place (or so it seems) to greeve, process, share and gain support without needless shame being hurled, or names being called. I don’t see a mob forming. That’s why I made a little joke earlier, to lighten the heavy mood. Peace and love all!

  295. There’s a word for guys like Bob who preach one thing and then secretly do the very opposite.

  296. I have monitored many Christian blogs in the years since I felt the Lord nudge me to go to the internet -yes surprising but true! He was about to show me how to judge or rightly divide truth from a lie. I didn’t learn it by one article or series of books I learned and am still in a school of learning how to think like a Christian.

    Aren’t we admonished ‘do not be deceived.’ ?. How about not being easily deceived. What this situation and countless others are revealing in this day of mega-church madness is that this paradigm of letting one man lead with little to no accountability is not working. As Dr. Phil used to say ‘how’s that working for you?’ Its not.

    When I was fresh out of a cult-style church I went searching various blogs/ websites and I want to tell you it always without exception hits on this exact topic. Usually someone throws scriptures at all the bloggers or writers and tells them to disperse from asking questions. I know it looks messy here but that is how we learn to think again. Think of it like a debate team.

    Critical thinking taught in Universities and I believe through any of Paul’s writing is the art of asking questions in order to find answers. Law Students are taught to ask questions in order to take in information and arrive at the truth that often leads to a verdict. They will be forced to see and interpret all angles before its through.

    It is more than ok to have these discussions of the situation here and rightly divide the truth from the lies. It is even a Biblical mandate from the Lord to do so. How will we not be deceived? When I was a child I spoke and reasoned like a child. I cannot any longer go back to being a naive Christian and let others do the thinking for me. That is the gold you glean from these discussions and these situations.

    Just today I had a discussion with my children about what judgement is and what it is not. That could be a long and interesting thread alone. These forums may be the first place and time many Christians have gone up to bat with other thinking Christians to learn how to have an intelligent and not just emotional discussion.

    We may agree to disagree but I am encouraged about the Body of Christ when we are having the discussion at all. Lets take the dysfunction out of the Church by reasoning together.

  297. DrawingintheSand@292 Your comment made me laugh – much needed after the drive-by comment @285. When I saw it earlier I wanted to ask her which of the 284 previous comments on the thread was she referring to – lol.

    S Miller @297 When the Lord said “Come let us reason together” He must have been longing for a lively discussion! One of the many ways we are created in His image! It has just occurred to me that He likes a good debate!

    It’s interesting how many Christians have a negative connotation of the term critical thinking having no idea it’s a concept in how to come to truth. It’s ok to say rightly divide the word of God because it’s a scriptural term, but to use the phrase critical thinking throws those those who think it wrong to speak up and disagree…

  298. JKeller – how right you are. I always hesitate to use the phrase ‘Critical Thinking’ although it is taught in every College in the country! Well meaning Christians of which I was one often take it to mean we are being critical by asking questions. Blogs may be critical and as I said before it is not always pretty any more than a family discussion about politics may be these days – especially if you had to read a script of it. We can ‘learn’ to discuss and reason together one line at a time here.

    Funny how I think the Lord likes and loves the art of discussion as in the Book of Job. He could have shortened it to the last Chapters 38-42 where the answers are all found in how you are to see trials and think about the Lord’s overall scheme and plan. Instead He has you read through a complete discourse of Job’s friends conversation before you get to the main point He is teaching!

    Yeshiva – a Jewish School has traditionally used the question/discussion method to get their students to learn to think and to discuss. They come to truth by having to use their minds to learn the facts and than discuss and defend a position. How are we ever going to learn to do that by sitting in a service week after week and being spoon fed information and stories with sugar coated announcements.

    Maybe we should have debating teams and see what truth we discover by being able to give an answer for what you believe.

    I never wanted to debate or discuss these topics before I was taken through the flood because I wasn’t confident of how to approach it. Experiences like this latest scandal has helped me get up to the front line one more time and be able to give a reason for what I truly believe.

    For that I’m truly thankful and for all the others ones in the past. Light finally dawns – so this is the school you have me in Lord! You are obviously in it too and all other thinking Christians on this blog.

  299. SMiller –

    I am in wholehearted agreement with your comment at 299. Not that we could ever win a debate with God but He would certainly lead a rousing discussion if we were in Yeshiva school with Him.

    And yes, thank God for blogs like this one and others we have found so helpful over the years. It’s been an education that’s for sure, in discovering and honing our individual voices and in helping us see we aren’t alone in what we have gone through and what we have come to.

  300. The failing degree of spiritual discernment of a well established body although typical is still mind boggling to me. If one study’s the works of Christians such as A W Tozer or further back, Andrew Murray, The Spiritual Life. It becomes evident the born again men have become so intellectually centered that the inspired scriptures are merely a framework for systematic theology without much divine inspiration at all. Though language is our primary tool of communication, it is a primary tool of miscommunication. As the intellect is our primary tool of perception, it is the primary tool of wrong perception. There is a greater avenue of perception called the enlightened heart. Our heart has the potential to know Truth if we wait on Him. Miracles and biblical experiences that we wrestle with lurk beyond our ability to appreciate and fully believe due to the intellectual kingdom our prayerless lives have become confined to. The scripture is God’s data base but it is not Him or deity. He is available but not on demand like most of our technology. We are too busy to spend time in the Truth and use scripture rather than allow it to transform us. Therefore we live so carnally we look and sound like the world except when we enter our religious therapy country clubs.
    I fellowshipped at a CC most of 20 years and contended for the spiritual to the point of resistance and near disfellowship. The response to why we don’t experience the reality of the Holy Spirit comparable to scripture during a 16 week study on the Holy Spirit was, He is working all the time but we aren’t necessarily aware of it. How true yet how wrong!
    We can normalize everything to our intellectual kingdom or pay the price to truly know Him in His kingdom.
    MANY will claim to have DONE things in His name and discover they He never knew Them and they likewise never truly knew Him.
    I’m not pointing out who knows Him or not, just pointing out that high degrees of association with scripture do not necessarily translate to a relationship with Him. Understanding is way over rated regarding an inspired book of recorded experiences.
    The foundations are being shaken that He might be worshipped in Spirit and Truth even now. There is forgiveness and grace so far as it brings glory to Him. All else is cheap grace and has no value in His Kingdom.

  301. As a former attender (no membership at a Calvary Chapels), and former staffer, the scripture that comes to mind regarding this situation is Proverbs 2:6-11. It speaks of Gods provision for the saints, wisdom, knowledge, understanding, guarding the just, discretion to preserve us, delivering us from the way of evil.

    Many have commented on what the appearance of Bob Caldwell was, versus the reality. Reality was that he was the poster child for chaos, controlling, “what do people think of me”, loose canon human. The appearance that he created by having control of the narrative from the pulpit as well as the king of the staff was that he was God centered, prayed more that any other human in history, was as spiritual as they come, “I only care what God thinks of me” illusion. He challenged those who called out his hypocrisy at every turn, and became a spiritual mafia godfather, sending out spiritual hit-men that rebuked and purged those folks from the “mixed multitde”. They had yet to wake up the the absurdity of the whole system created at Calvary Chapel Boise. Tucker will come to understand over time and with much counsel, by the grace of God, how much chaos and distortion Bob Caldwell, an addict, has wrought in the lives of thousands. I am praying for him, his possee and his heart. I am praying for Cathy Caldwells’ heart, mind, and future. Her future is far better now than it was until now. Because the truth will set her free. Pray for Tucker to understand that any thoughts that the sheep can only handle what he thinks is “enough” info is deadly. Let the chemo, radiation and surgery begin at Calvary Chapel Boise, and all Moses Model Christian churches. Because Moses never made into the promised land on earth……

  302. Wow -excellent thoughts CTruth! As someone who probably worked close to him and on the inside you surely know and saw more than most. It can be very different on Monday -Friday than it appears on Sunday.

    I love your word pictures – from purging folks from a ‘mixed multitude’ which shows what happens to those who do ask questions about the chaos. They are cast out of the camp! It can be done in such a way that you are begging to leave when you realize you are being frozen out.

    Yes from an insider who wants to walk through the timeline with Tucker because you and other people who were there from the early days have seen the patterns that led up to this moment. I wonder when we will stop re-creating this same situation of a one man show? How many more of these messes will Christians have to endure before we see that it’s not working out very well to have 0 accountability? A mega church celebrity world was surely not what the Lord wanted.

    I agree that I hope Tucker can trust the people to hear and see the truth of what led to this and how exactly are they going to create a new system? I heard him today on the radio singing the praises of what was done in India in such a lyrical -almost soothing way. I know he is probably still in an ideal state of a high from being chosen to take over the mantle of this church. To go from nothing to being the head of one of largest mega -churches in Boise with an International Outreach is exciting for him.

    I wish he get together with Joshua Harris – who was given a mega -church in Washington, DC – Covenant LIfe formerly Soverign Grace Ministries. . He was the Senior Pastors chosen son who was given the reins or so it seemed. Than the crisis hit and he found he was neither equipped or trained to deal with CJ Mahaney’s past cover-ups of abuse of children that happened there. Joshua is now attending seminary in Canada. He was the author of “I Kissed Dating Good-bye’ a huge seller. He found out he needed to go back to square one and get trained. This is from a man who was raised in a Home School family and promoted it in their church endlessly.

    I hoped we would learn from that situation but it is happening here once again. As Harris said he had no idea what was going to be expected from him as a young man groomed for the job by the pre-decessor. Isn’t it interesting that these leaders choose very young, inexperienced men to take over their role that no one else can fill? The implications there could fill another thread.

    You have much to say CTruth and I can see this is only the beginning of what you have to share! Good job and welcome to the ministry of helping others via the internet.

  303. CTruth and SMiller… wow, agreed. I too used to work there. We all probably know each other.

    SMiller you said “They are cast out of the camp! It can be done in such a way that you are begging to leave when you realize you are being frozen out.” Not only did I witness that happen to may staff members over an 18 year period, but it happened to me! There was no challenging Bob… and yet I didn’t see it that way, I felt that I “chose” to leave, but in truth, I too was becoming an older male and frozen out. I could name a bunch of names of others who actually said it was that way for them and now they run churches, colleges, orphanages, and other large ministries. I myself was no longer easily influenced, and after serving at another church for about 5 years, I came back to go through the School of Ministry there and wow! No older staff except for one or two yes men, it really messed with my head, it really caused me to distance myself although looking back I only now see why. And yet it was something my wife and I spoke about several times. No older bulls around to ballance Bob out, and then Tucker was appointed, I know Tucker pretty well and I was happy at the time of his appointment but at the same time… wow, what a major challenge that really requires experience, not just humility, training would be a mega bonus, but I’m not sure that exists? Seminary doesn’t prepare one for running a large organization i wouldn’t think (I could be wrong). Does college prepare graduates to run HP or Micron? Anyway, good observations…

  304. #301

    Always good to see someone Platonizing the faith — the intellect is suspect and inferior, but our spirits aren’t, I guess. This is what can lead to cultism. God gave us our minds to discern and ponder.

    Not surprised in the least that you spent 20+ years at a CC. Looks like you were even too spiritual for them!

    Wasn’t part of Jesus’s commandment to love God and others with all our heart, soul, AND mind?

  305. C Truth @302 very good point that Moses never made it into the promised land. Even though he shared a relationship with God like none other mortal he was still subject to God’s standard of holiness and that God is holiness. We learn from that part of Moses’ life what God expects in a relationship with Him.

    Why would we even want or need the Moses model when Jesus became our model? These men who have patterned their ministries after Moses’s unique one are drawn to the appeal of one man hearing from God while the rest of the believers in their spheres wait with baited breath the word from God given to them. That would really appeal to their ego – the carnal man – and give them a sense of spiritual pride. Something we aren’t supposed to indulge in.

    Why would the people who are their followers even need the Holy Spirit if these pastors were the only ones to hear from God?

    Then factor in that the people themselves who give their allegiance to their own particular Moses are doing so because they want someone to tell them what to do and how to do it. I’m not just pointing the finger at others because I did the same thing thinking I was being obedient to God by submitting to my own pastor/king/authority – or I tried to even if I failed at it because it wasn’t working. So is it because we aren’t willing to do the “work” of believing, as the Bible instructs, waiting on God – trusting in faith – being led by the Holy Spirit ourselves every day? Why else would we hand over our spiritual position in Christ and our individual inheritance as a son or daughter in Him to someone else?

    The authoritarian leaders become pumped up with an overblown sense of worth. If they have issues from a dysfunctional past they don’t think they need to go to counseling and do the “work” of inner healing like someone in their congregation with the same plight would need to do. What if they are a child of an alcoholic, let’s say, as Bob is?

  306. DrawingInTheSand – I’m so glad you shared your story! I’m sure you saw and learned a
    lot and have many more insights you and your wife could both share from your experience there. We want to hear it. Now isn’t that a switch? After years of hearing the same stories over and over again we were parched and dry and wanted to yell ‘we each have important stories to share from our lives too Bob!” Not just you!

    In fact we didn’t want to just yell this back at him in between his sips of water, but to all the mega church world wannabes. We all have a ministry and we have a story to tell. Its called our testimony and it has power to help others.

    In fact that’s what we’re doing here on blogs. There is no place in this paradigm for anyone other than the ‘lead pastor’ – the term that is trending now – to allow others to speak. We were painfully aware at at our former church that if someone started to get the spotlight on them they better refer in deference to the Senior Pastor or his family. Almost every prayer service ended up in prayer for them to go global – up to a new level and to be known around the world! I wish I was kidding!

    I agree totally that going to Seminary will not give someone experience any more than sending someone off to college prepares you to be President of a Company once you attain a diploma. The Joshua Harris story is one of the casualties of this system. I have close friends who attended there through all the ups and downs of being totally in love with their church and pastors to having been decimated and wondering what to do next on the other side of the scandal there.

    Sovereign Grace Ministries -is a perfect textbook example of what can happen. Joshua wrote a book that basically said you should be married to your church. It was a Covenant Relationship as close as marriage. My friends would have had to get permission to leave that church and move or relocate – literally. Well after everything blew up it was Joshua who suddenly decided to sell his huge house and move to Canada – under the auspices of going to Seminary. There is probably a book that will come out of his 18 month schooling of what he’s learned and then he can go on a book tour – right back into another kind of ministry. It’s all he’s ever known professionally, which is another issue of having professional pastors in the pulpit.

    CJ Mahaney also left the area and and took the entire church organization to Louisville, Kentucky along with all the funds as in millions of dollars of tithe money. Just think what would have happened if Chuck Smith had relocated Calvary Chapel headquarters to New York and taken all the $$$ coffers with him. This did happen and was written about in detail in the Washington Post – but do other Christians or Churches see or know of this current example? He was called one of the “Big Dogs” in the reformed church world.

    I’m afraid the warning signs are all around us and we just keep pressing the reset button and allow the next Mega Church Pastor to choose his own successor with little to no say from any experienced Pastors/Elders around him. They don’t want anyone else’s opinions because control might be lost.

    I have been wanting to do a video of the Pastor going into the 5th Grade Classroom and choosing his newest set of elders. They keep getting younger and more inexperienced for a reason.

    So tell your story -we care and we’re listening!

  307. S Miller and DrawingInTheSand – when you mention being cast out of the camp – frozen out – phased out and replaced – by the next cool person of the hour like we have all been makes me think of a few things.

    1. Usually the Replaced is no longer part of the young demographic. Whereas the Replace-ee is indeed very young and inexperienced and often unproven, but by all means, that doesn’t matter as long as the Replace-ee has that cool factor which is some kind of indifineable charisma which in turn makes the Replacer (pastor or leader who is getting rid of the old guard) cool by association. The Replacer also starts showing odd behavior like trying to look like the Replacee which makes him look a tad ridiculous because it’s obvious he is trying too hard.

    2. So it’s interesting that Bob is now the Replaced. His own actions have cast him out of the CCB camp as a frozen one, reaping a bit of what he has sown.

  308. You said it JKeller! How often have we talked and read discussions on this exact scenario?

    One pattern we have noticed from the mega-church worlds we have been a part of and on staff as well – is the Lead Pastor – Big Dog keeps hiring younger men around him as if he is not aging! He also starts to dismiss anyone of his own age group as being ‘too old’ and not on the cutting pastoral edge. He than starts to show signs of mid-life-pastor/leader crisis by trying to dress and act like them. Whats with that?

    We’ve had endless discussions of when all the young guys started wearing wool hats at both ministries. It was a trend with the 20 somethings but when your Lead Pastor as in Bob starts wearing one and says its because he had an infection and started acting weird we knew we were heading into dangerous mid-life territory.

    Was anyone else there and saw this? It’s not that these signs don’t happen – they do. The challenge is to analyze it and look at it for what it is when it’s your pastor who you like and love and think is cool – as if their coolness will rub off on you!

    A young skateboarder -actor said it best –why is everyone trying to live vicariously through Bob at this church?

  309. S Miller – and it wasn’t even winter when the wool hat incident took place so that made it more obvious.

    Its interesting how these guys can surround themselves with youth and try to avoid their own reality of aging in the name of passing the baton to the next generation. We are seeing that it can certainly take its toll in unexpected ways. Thus the hat scenario among others.

    Not that youth shouldn’t be given a place eventually – we all start somewhere; but you would think it would be a glaring red flag if your pastor is only surrounding himself with 35 year olds and younger. Arent there any ministry books that warn about the pitfalls of getting rid of all your wise people who have been with you through thick and thin in order to surround yourself with kids? It’s a fruitless move that is trending now and the leaders themselves are too blind to see it. And then they wonder why people question their authority.

    If you can’t see what kind of pain you are causing others by your bad behavior maybe you shouldn’t be in a people related business.

  310. Great analysis JKeller as usual! You hit the nail on the head–isn’t there a book that warns of this yes – I think it’s called The Bible. There is wisdom found with many counselors but what kind of counselors? Wise ones!

    As DrawingInTheSand said if you are surrounding yourself with yes men that are found primarily from young men who you are grooming – than who else will surround you to give you anything other than a yes? That happened to Michael Jackson and countless other celebrities.

    Why isn’t this obvious to everyone? It’s because it happens in such a slow drip method with one experienced pastor leaving than another grood elder dropping off -so subtle you hardly notice. And if someone does have the guts to ask why did they leave or step down? You will get a version of one of these: A. they are not going with the new direction, B. they are stuck in the old paradigm, C. they are negative, D. they have marriage issues, E. trouble with their children. F. all of the above! It may be vague but you will understand do not ask any more details!

    This has been trending for a long time now from James McDonald to Mark Driscoll – too many to name. It is those older & experienced Elders who just might have some life and professional experience to see red flags appearing. The problem with that is they will slow your ship down. CTruth has said the Calvary method always compared itself with other church groups and thought the congregational style model was way too slow in getting things done. So as it transformed the leaders found the way to accomplish ‘your goals’ is to slowly replace your elders with younger, easier managed men Sound familiar?

    Warning Sign #10 Your Pastor starts sporting a new look –starts matching his youth group leaders in dress style and talk. He hires a stylist and a team of media consultants.

  311. SMiller, (and all of you) thank you for your supportive comments. The church is messy, under both leadership models. We can find major fault with both types in the new testiment. Paul had to straighten Peter out in what appears to have been a Moses model church, and in elder lead churches Paul had to remind some to quite sleeping with their Fathers wives, etc. There was misguided teachings that Paul considered blasphemous… all in Paul’s day! If we wanted to we could say all churches from all time have been flawed and we don’t have to stop at the New Testament, Lot’s daughters, Bathsheba, Moses was a murderer, Adam wasn’t fit to lead a marriage! What leadership would you call Adam’s? God’s? I mean there is nothing before Adam in the human record of leadership.

    I am very used to troubleshooting and if you have a very complex system. You have to break things down at their source. You have to separate fixed (non variables) from variables, then break those variables down from those you have some influence on to those you do not. In this case, free will. Seemingly (without meaning to start an entirely new and huge debate over free will vs. yadayadayada) God has always worked through people with this variable in place called free will and under any “system” of governance it has the potential to blow up.

    I’m suddenly reminded of auto racing (which i know nothing about). If we got rid of engines because they kept blowing… or we replaced chief mechanics with a board of mechanics it wouldn’t matter, the engine can still blow. Get rid of the engine? But wait we’re only looking at the engines that blow… every race, every race season has a winner, some team somehow overcame the blown engine problem and persevered.

    I don’t just want to vent here, and I don’t want to armchair quarterback this one. A reasonable amount of venting (define reasonable? haha) is fine, criticism is welcome for the discovery of variables we might have influence over, but going over things like we should have seen it coming in every church under every situation, that’s like watching a tree grow every second of every day year after year until it gets high enough to touch a power line and it goes ZAP! And someone could say having watched it, “I knew that was going to happen”.

    Blaming leadership styles… Knowing something we should have seen coming… that presents too many issues not addressed. Who is “we”, how do you know you see anything coming? Ever have a feeling that you believe is the HS, check with YOUR counselors and get a pass only to find out later you were right? What do you do? Fire your counselors? Get new ones? Ignore counselors forever? Whether we’re talking Bob, Lot, King David, Peter, Adam, or Moses for that matter you or me… what are we left with? Some here have quit attending churches in buildings for this very reason. You could end up in a race without an engine just so it won’t blow!

    Speaking of vetting leaders, it doesn’t seem that Jesus went to seminary or had tutors, Paul did but came also from a background of murder, Peter was a fisherman and was put in charge by Jesus himself. I’m not suggesting we throw up our hands and not try, but I think what we have, is what we have always had.

    It’s how sin got here in the first place. Seemingly Adam was not prepared and had no accountability or training.

    My point, while I removed myself from this church as a staff person and volunteer. I still respected Bob as doing his personal best, not any better than most of us and a lot better than many. That man had (has) a lot of fruit to show in his life. I never did put him on a pedestal, or at least I quite after a short while in my 20’s. That’s why this didn’t really break my heart like it did with others… oh my heart is broken over the pain that this sin has brought on all affected. But I would say over-all, I still respect Bob on many levels. I’m interested on how this plays out, for what’s worth, my respect is hovering over how it is handled… but then, what’s my respect worth 😉 I want to do my best not to judge, only discern and move forward wisely. I want to thank you all for your investment on this topic, thanks for all your posts… minus those with personal attacks 😉 Peace!

  312. DrawingInTheSand –

    What we are trying to point out in bringing up the points about Bob surrounding himself with only young men (except for Cory the Elder who somehow managed to stay in there) and the wool hat, which is a smaller issue, is these were signs that something was going on, red flag warnings to those with eyes to see. They weren’t the only signs. But in looking around the body of Christ they were the types of signs many pastors of big churches have been exhibiting. To bring this up is not meant to be an attack on Bob’s character but as public visible evidence of his own behavior that indicated all was not well underneath.

    When you step back and look at the bigger picture you begin to see a common thread weaving through the body of Christ. Pastors are behaving badly and people are enabling it. Then the ones who point out what could be going are written off as bitter, offended gossips and trouble-makers. This further enables bad behavior patterns to thrive until it blows up with the hidden stuff coming out – in this case that Bob was having an on-going affair with a woman who is not his wife.

    With other pastors it has been a similar story or one about using church finances to buy fine upper class homes and take quarterly vacations where the rich and famous vacation. If this cloak of silence hadn’t been allowed to blanket all the bad behavior in the first place maybe these pastors would’ve been stopped in their tracks, caught with their hand in the cookie jar, before the result of their actions reached a collateral damage level.

  313. J Keller, I get that, sorry if I didn’t support those points adequately. What I am saying is, engines blow. Leadership fails, even God’s pick can lose in a big way. I’m not saying we shouldn’t try to improve, but what I am saying is, is this is a very hard thing to see coming, or even if you do see it coming and warn them as in Jesus telling Peter how and when he was going to deny Christ, doesn’t necessarily prevent the failure. I think it’s good to have these discussions, and try to do better, I think we are obligated in leadership to do so. But we will not create a better leadership model than any God has created or allowed, the variable is us. And we all need grace, and there is a pretty high likelihood no matter how good the accountability program is that man will let us down. To expect less is to put Bob and other mega Church pastors back up on a pedestal where they don’t belong. Earlier there was some criticism about the CC pastor selection process… I don’t see any better selection going on in the bible, murderers, adulterers, uneducated, untrained people are often selected by God or Jesus and both have their wins and losses… can we really do better? Or can we just do our best?

  314. DrawingInTheSand – I thought about adding to my response after I sent it last night knowing it might sound like a personal attack on Bob. I am not attacking him personally but pointing out the red flags we saw happening before our eyes to a Leader of a local and International Group and a public figure in this area.

    I need to clarify my attempt was to reveal example after example of red flag- waving behaviors in order to make a point and build a case that the signs have been there for a long time at CC Boise. They are also showing up all across the country – the pattern is becoming obvious to any who will see. I wanted to paint a picture of just a few of the large name leaders who have gone down a similar road and the effect it is having.

    I am concerned about this particular group of believers at this church as well. My heart breaks for friends attending there who have called wanting to discuss the announcement. They are in confusion with the limited information they were hit with.

    I believe the Lord is using each and every scandal, crisis & upset to get believers attention that the paradigm, or way to do church has changed. Many sense it is already done and we need to catch up and find out what the Lord is calling us to do in these last days – no matter where we are on the timeline.

    If we’re in a new season could it be the Lord is wanting to change things, not to punish but to give us the tools to get ready for whatever is up ahead? It’s the most loving thing He could do as our world is changing before our eyes. He will always have a new plan to help us cope, survive and than thrive in our ministries. If we didn’t believe that we would feel hopeless. Instead it’s actually a good thing to grow us up and help us prepare for His return.

    If I hadn’t personally been thrown off my horse like Paul I never would have believed it either! its much larger than CC Boise or Bob Caldwell or Bob Coy.

    I do see the value in discussing each crisis, or church situation in order to learn from it and be able to give a reason for what we believe. That’s the value of a blog. I was trying to throw in some humor into a non funny situation – using the wool hat episode as a catalyst.

    The blogs we first read when we left our controlling church taught us with humor and spoofs on the ridiculous behaviors in order to help us step back and open our eyes. Scales falling alert!

    When you start to see the overall picture and report out there its mind boggling and depress you. Humor and open discussions like this can help us cope and learn at the same time.

    Who knew we’d be having Pastors doing reality shows and flying in personal jets at this stage of the game. They have million dollar homes and personal assistants and chefs and all the trappings. If we don’t laugh or ask questions we may not survive with our faith intact.

    The Book of Acts is great reminder at just how fast one system can be changed. This is where you can ask the questions and help the next class after you. Hope this helps you hear my heart!

  315. JKeller – You get the writing award for helping to bring insight to what I was trying to type late last night.

    We all feel passionate about the state of the church and our leaders falling. We get attached to them so strongly that when they fall even if we are disappointed we still can feel connected and want to protect them at the same time.

    You are an excellent writer who cut right through the discussion to bring truth! Thank you and may your sword of Zorro strike again!

  316. I just caught up with a few posts and I wanted to answer a few questions.
    1) knowing who the gal is will not do anything other than break your heart and cause even more anger. She is not on a public platform or a place of ministry at this time. The accountability and obligation to answer from a public platform goes along with speaking from that same platform. Her family, those she mentored and leaders know. For others, it’s irrelevant. She sinned, she knows it and those who should know do know. Her husband and family knew a long time before it became public. I don’t think protecting them is covering up. I think it’s helping them not to have to rip open wounds that have started to heal just a bit.

    2) Yes. You are right in thinking there is a cover up here. Hands down, without doubt, he has tried to cover up so much more than just an affair.
    Does that change that God worked in and through him? No! He’s a pawn. I’m a pawn. God doesn’t need a single one of us. Yet He uses is. It’s humbling. Let God be true and every man – even Bob – a liar.

    3) the best advice here is pray for Tucker. Yeah, he may have some optimistic glow outlook or whatever but guys, he’s not a stupid man. Whether he changes the model, or follows in its corrupt and twisted footsteps; God will use him. He is a pawn.

    4) Turn your eyes upon JESUS, look full in his wonderful face. And the things of earth will grow strangely dim in the light of his glory and GRACE.

    PEACE Y’all. Focus on what you have control over – then and only then will you be the perfect pawn for the Kingdom.

  317. @ 309 SMiller

    “Whats with that?”

    Surely you know. We live in a culture that worships youth, newness, and what we Christians perceive as a “fresh work of the Spirit”; which we associate with the young and the new. When a pastor has built his ministry, at least in part, upon his church being the cool place to be, there is the effort to maintain that personal and atmosphere. It is what I call living off the jet fumes of your glory days.

    Much of American Christianity has been built upon presenting the truths of God within the context of the cool factor. It is tapping into the prevailing winds of culture. Once that is no longer present, people look elsewhere to find that medium of presentation.This became evident to me when a friend of mine described his new pastor as “like a young Greg Laurie.” Essentially, he is identifying style without much regard for substance.

    We have not taught our people very well, they do not recognize that which is truly valuable and spiritual.

  318. personal should have read persona. auto correct strikes again.

  319. If I am a pawn of God’s wouldn’t that mean I have control over nothing? Is pawn the new trending word now? I’ve been out of the IC for quite awhile now so what is trending is completely lost on me not that I care what the cool thing is.

  320. What’s trending now in the Christian Culture. Too funny J Keller

  321. More good than bad was done by this Pastor! Don’t ever forget that….

  322. Satan is the accuser…

  323. Isn’t trying to focus on th good rather than the atrocity, was stated in the post above, a way of deflecting the responsibility and effects of sin and trying to minimalize it?

  324. Ugh…I hate typing on my phone.

    “Which was stated in the post above,” was what I meant to say.

    Still, sounds like deflection/minimalizing to me.

  325. Stephen @324 Yes I agree it is deflection. Let’s minimalize the years of a double life violating the “sacred trust” (Bob’s words not mine) his family and the people in his church gave to him; that way we can keep him on the pedestal just awhile longer. (Yes this is sarcasm for those who may jump to conclusions and misinterpret my meaning.)

    Only the Lord will determine what was good or what was wood, hay and stubble in Bob’s life when he stands before him to give an account. Just like the rest of us. I’m sure his family would gladly trade all the “good” Bob did all those years for the loyalty and integrity they believed he had.

  326. And the “don’t you forget that,” is very aggressive and “threatening.”

    -All classic reactions to avoid responsibility or admit wrongs in a counselling setting.

  327. Stephen — Good insights! That was in the air before this story was revealed. Our insider friends have said that whenever anyone tried to hold a standard of accountability at CCBoise this same argument came up. The elders & staff — everyone would deflect and go there — look at all the good he is doing or has done here or in India – all around the world. A scandal or problem does not negate that if it was truly good work but it doesn’t mean you shouldn’t address the present problem.

    Is that the standard in the Bible? I know someone here can quote the passage about what standards elders or leaders are accountable to as in the husband of one wife… and on and on. It also states don’t go into leadership if you don’t want to be held to that standard and higher.

    Once again my concern is not just this situation, but there seems to be a slide of ethics morals and Bible Standards across the board. Exhibit C: Israel Houton popular Worship Leader from Lakewood Church – the largest church in the country, just recently went through this. He was caught having an affair with a reality show star — Kim Kardashian look alike –read it for yourself. They had him take a 6 month ‘sabbatical” not sure what that meant and he’s now on the roster to perform at their NFL Gospel Conference coming up. He also still has his docket full of churches where he is going to perform – duets with the new wife too! There are many articles on this and he wasn’t even the Lead Pastor.

    So what do we think? Are there new standards now? You can imagine the pain Lakewood went through in their dilemma of deciding whether to put him on probation, or let him go. When someone draws that kind of numbers to your church you hesitate to deal harshly with them or your numbers may go down. Than it shows in the offering buckets and than in the campus and buildings.

    Case in point: I visited ORU after they had experienced many a defining scandal in 2003. Their buildings looked shabby and in a state of decline. The carpets needed replaced, the buildings needed maintenance and the campus just looked tired. Whether you like them or not they were the lightening rod of how to do big ministry in the day. Everyone knows this is where it can lead and that is the real fear.

    Alot is at stake in big time ministry as in the dollars it takes to keep your ship afloat. This is why people tend to want to look at all that was built and done in the past glory days.

    Don’t you think they did the same at PTL and ORU? How about Robert Schuller and his kingdom? Now it is owned by the Catholic Church. Titantic after Titanic keeps floating to the surface in order to get our attention. Are we listening yet?

  328. Very good SMiller @328! Love that you included all the examples of bigger ministries than Bob’s that have fallen into moral sin and make the point that our concern here is the church at large not only Bob and the local church he betrayed. After all, the judgment of God in dealing with the church because of all this moral failing rampant today affects all of us whether we like it or not. So to have a vested interest in what is happening is not just morbid curiosity nor is it taking our eyes off Jesus like anonymous implied @317. We care about Christ’s church because it is the body we were born into when we received him. And we have a right to know what is going on and we have a right to question or make a point about cover up when we see signs it is happening.

    Speaking of covering up, according to Anonymous @317 apparently Bob was covering up much more than an affair. If that’s the case why throw that piece of news out there and then say by the way you shouldn’t care about that – keep your eyes on Jesus like a good little pawn. Gahhhh!

    This whole push and pull idiocy is one of the reasons I cannot participate in the institution of church as it exists anymore. Thankfully I am in the company of good friends who respect my heart and brain and don’t tell me things like don’t worry your pretty little head about matters out of your control.

    Control? like I can control anything?

    God is the one in control and it looks like he has given the church system a long rope to hang itself with.

  329. Golden Globe of responses right here!

    We get exasperated when people don’t seem to see ‘WE” are the Body of Christ – all of us together. If one parts hurts or does something stupid we are all affected. The world will lump us all together as ‘those Christians.’ More importantly the Lord deals out judgement or consequences in love to get the whole body’s attention.

    Have you ever hurt one body part and not have it affect all of you – even a small injury can really cry out in pain!

    Since I woke up I’ve been saying for years – they’re going to get us all on a train to Auschwitz. Meaning: all this crossing of lines and trying to do anything to be a part of the world and blend in by coming like them will affect all of us. It could lead to taxation on churches which would surely bring the system down in a hurry. The wealth stream would be cut in half if that happened, or worse.

    We don’t know where all this is leading but it feels like we’re on a train to somewhere and its not a good location as in Siberia. Someone has to sound the alarm. The pulpits are doing it so it has to come from somewhere the writers on blogs. You’ll often find more truth here and fruitful discussion here than a 10 points monologue passing as a sermon with less Scripture in it than a Dead Sea Scroll fragment.

    JKeller I love how you rebel against the word picture of being a pawn in the larger scale of things. Something about that strikes me wrong. If thats the case than give up now. We may not be able to affect huge masses but than again we might. Who knows? I just know we have to try to point out some things we are seeing that this situation has once again brought to light.

  330. Anonymous @317 concept of pawns
    S Miller @330 rebel against…being a pawn…strikes me wrong….if that’s the case then give up now.

    Ok I’m glad I’m not the only one who isn’t loving the pawn concept. I had a visceral reaction to that when Anonymous implied that no matter how much we sin God uses us anyway because we are merely pawns. There is some truth to that – we all have sinned and our righteousness is in Christ not of ourselves etc.

    But there is untruth as well. And the whole pawn argument is meant to downplay the atomic bomb CCB received on the weekend of Dec 16th. But aside from that, if I think of myself as a pawn, it changes my concept of how my loving Father sees me. When I was discussing this pawn idea with my better half, his initial reaction was: where is the free will in being a pawn? If God wanted us to be pawns we would all be robots. and God already has angels who do his bidding without free will. God wants a two-way relationship and Jesus called his disciples to be friends not servants.

    Ah! Thank you for helping me define why the pawn concept was bugging me. I was telling him that “pawn” drains all the love out of the equation. And like S Miller says if that’s the case then we can give up now.

    Ok, diverting from topic a bit but I just want to add: if asking questions in open discussion is such a rebellious thing how would we ever learn from each other? As we discuss we can see more clearly. In homes, in school, at work, in friendship, on blogs. Keep the conversation going and there will be epiphanies every day. And it’s free therapy. On the other hand, sit in rows facing forward listening to one man give his opinion on how to live life in a forum where no discussion is wanted or needed.

    Would God say to a pawn, “Come, let us reason together.” ?

  331. So it has been close to 4 weeks since we first learned of the Bob Caldwell affair. Many here have brought out points and counterpoints regarding what tragedy and destruction this has caused. Many have also brought out points that we need to watch our own walk and witness for Jesus, lest we find ourselves in similar situations. My purpose for posting tonight is to reiterate Gods’ call to each christian. Be wise, be discerning, do not be easily misled.

    Folks are still trying to remind themselves and each other of all the good that Bob did. Why? God is God. His purpose is accomplished by His hand through us. Bob loved the Lord. I am not sure what he knows about God right now. His adultery was just discovered, however it did not just happen. It was because he would not allow any another man to speak into his life that he went off course many years ago. Don’t forget that even when confronted by Tucker and the Elders (do you know who they are?), Bob thought he could persuade them into keeping it a secret. He served as the Pastor for nearly 1/3 of his tenure with this secret fiasco. And as others have indicated, it is just one symptom of his addiction issues. His manipulation is all over the funds and ministries there. He has been a liar extraordinaire for most of his pastoral career. Sorry to be a Debbie downer, but any fruit that came from what he did was by the grace of God to those that God intended the blessing for.

    Bob betrayed his wife and his vow to her. His wife deserves the grace of each of us. Perhaps the church will pay for her to be counseled by a professional group that can show her how to be wise, discerning, and not easily misled, giving her skills to live the rest of her life in peace.

  332. JKeller – good topics to discuss as always. Writing in the form of blogging has been one of the best forms of therapies out there for those who are hurt by a church, or controlling group or who just have questions. In fact you can be hurt or wounded and easily go join another group having drawn no conclusion -or the wrong ones. The turnstyle.

    One of my memories at CCB before leaving was when Bob was discussing this very topic. He was tired of hearing people who were wounded by other churches – just get over it! was the therapy he recommended. I’ll never forget his quote ” no one put a gun to your head.”
    As I sat there in disbelief I thought ‘ you’re right and you’re not going to put one to mine either.’

    This was good fruit because I had learned something from my former church and I did not allow him to put a spiritual gun to my head or heart. I actually never got that close to the fire there. I had learned to wait and watch before jumping in.

    I was watching to see how people were treated, especially those on staff. In fact the litmus test for most groups is how are people treated when they resign from a job or ministry. That is the acid test – always. How many former staffers and elders do you have there who are happy and treated with respect when they are not serving?

    Again I’m not talking just about CCB but all groups in general. If there is never any viable reason to get off the ship, or simply take a break and step back for awhile than that should get your attention. Watch and observe before getting right back in there is my advice to many who were used up. It’s ok to sit and seat belt yourself to the chair if necessary when they ask for volunteers until you feel ready or desire to do something there. A huge step towards getting free.

  333. Wells said CTruth! You know a lot of what you have observed through the years, not just this latest phase but way back. You have truly seen lots of patterns and history that goes way back. Almost every group that has ever gotten off has alway seemed to start out with a mission and a lot of good intentions. That is not the hard part, the real test comes when the numbers grow and real success starts to come. How are problems and issues handled on a daily basis.

    How much control do your Elders or on staff Pastors have to speak into your leaders life when they get off track. It happens over and over again with a One Man at the top scenario that we have created or allowed them to create. They are irreplaceable in our eyes as we love to watch them preach. We are attached to their style, voice mode of operations. Its so much easier to sit back in your chair and just listen and not question like a ride at Disneyland.

    Good job in making us think and look at the history. It was there all the time if anyone had taken time to interview those around him. Wouldn’t the most loving thing to do be to keep your Pastor accountable by real men and women in authority because when you grow such large numbers you have so much at stake? People’s spiritual lives.

    Wouldn’t it have been a loving thing to do for his own wife and family? You are having a heart for the one hurt the most in this ordeal of conscience. What does she do now? Do you hear what happened to Bob Coy’s wife and family? Where are they now? What became of them? It’s like they never existed and are supposed to ride off into the sunset?

  334. Wells said CTruth! You know a lot from what you have observed through the years, not just this latest phase – but way back. You have truly seen lots of patterns and history that goes from the beginning. Almost every group that has ever gotten off has alway seemed to start out with a mission and a lot of good intentions. That is not the hard part, the real test comes when the numbers grow and real success starts to come. How are problems and issues handled on a daily basis?

    How much control do your Elders or on staff Pastors have to speak into your leader’s life when they get off track. It happens over and over again with a One Man at the top scenario that we have created or allowed them to create. They are irreplaceable in our eyes as we love to watch them preach. We are attached to their style, voice, mode of operations. It’s so much easier to sit back in your chair and just listen and not ask question like a ride at Disneyland.

    Good job in making us think and look at the history. It was there all the time if anyone had taken time to interview those around him. Wouldn’t the most loving thing to do involve keeping your Pastor accountable by real men and women in authority because when you grow such large numbers you have so much at stake? People’s spiritual lives in large numbers.

    Wouldn’t it have been a loving thing to do for his own wife and family? You are having a heart for the one hurt the most in this ordeal of conscience. What does she do now? Do you hear what happened to Bob Coy’s wife and family? Where are they now? What became of them? It’s like they never existed and are supposed to ride off into the sunset?

  335. Sorry for the double post — I keep repeating the same info in one form or another!

  336. CTruth @332
    Yes where does Cathy go now, really? Like she is going to want to darken the door there. But at least she has family and hopefully good faithful friends around her as she gets to the other side of this. Meanwhile Bob and Whoever She Is are nowhere to be seen while Cathy and her children bear the weight of this publicly. And why does everyone seem to want to protect Bob’s mistress from exposure? Cathy and her children should be the ones protected for goodness sakes. They should be the ones given preference and a shield of grace, not the perpetrators of their pain. Something is wrong with this picture of shielding Bob and She from anything. And you are right that the church Cathy gave her life and money to should pay for counseling and anything else that is needed for her well being. After all, she donated her family inheritance to that church via Bob’s ‘discretionary’ use of it.

    S Miller @333
    Yes it has been interesting to get a bird’s eye view of how some of the staff and elders were treated at this church, at least for the years we were there. It was eye-opening and painful to watch; but also a necessary school of learning, not only for the one who went through it, but for us as we watched from the sidelines. Without that we wouldn’t have seen and put two and two together. The biggest takeaway was the similarities that came to light between CCB and our former church – not even the same denomination – but the structure was built with the same bones. And to think at first we thought there were such vast differences and raved about it. It felt like vindication at first after what we had gone through previously.

    @331 One more point about PAWNS from comment 331: In our discussion earlier my better half also said if you want to use the example of pawns, it’s the mega church pastors who are using people at their disposal as pawns, all in the name of ministry for the Lord. So true. Submit to authority with no questions asked – check your mind and discernment at the door. We know what it is to be a pawn because we have been there done that. Once you know what it is to be free from pawn-life though you don’t ever want to sign up for it again. You remember you are still free to choose life over death and what it means to say yes to God in a healthy way never to be controlled by men and religiosity again.

  337. “…pastors who are using people at their disposal as pawns, all in the name of ministry for the Lord. So true. Submit to authority with no questions asked – check your mind and discernment at the door. We know what it is to be a pawn because we have been there done that. Once you know what it is to be free from pawn-life though you don’t ever want to sign up for it again. You remember you are still free to choose life over death and what it means to say yes to God in a healthy way never to be controlled by men and religiosity again.”

    This is brilliant. So true.
    Signed,
    Former Pawn (and to my shame, I’d add “Lackey”)

  338. We hear you Disillusioned – we were all willing subjects. But to your credit – and ours – we were products of the culture we were in. That culture is still alive and well kept going by the authoritarian teachings of a few in the name of submission to God and remaining in His will. Somehow they have convinced the Christian world that submitting to your pastor is simultaneously submitting to God. It’s a racket that works well for those in charge, not so much for the lackies (I like your word!). But the good news is people are waking up all over America, called out to get their true calling from God back, to follow Him again instead of a pastor who goes off the rails in scandalous detail.

  339. “Somehow they have convinced the Christian world that submitting to your pastor is simultaneously submitting to God. ”

    Bingo.

    Such blasphemy!!

    “Toadie ” is another way I see my former self. They used me to do their dirty work, like enforcing the pastor’s wife’s dress code (not kidding), or confronting any problems with people not only in the ministry I was in, but others as well. “God is using you,” I was told. “You’re not afraid to tell the truth,” they said.

    Of course, that didn’t work out so well for them when they sinned. And to my utter shock, turned out the scriptures didn’t apply to “leadership.”

  340. Oh my, a dress code @340.

    Your Toadie name is making me LOL but at least it’s not who you are now. To make someone else the enforcer is so typical of these types of religious leaders. We saw that in our former church too. The lead pastor wants to remain the good guy who is revered and worshipped. Until it’s played out and one by one people wake up to what is really happening. No wonder bloggers the world over use the Hitler/Himmler comparison to their former leadership. Every controlling church has their Gestapo.

    And of course the rules don’t apply to the pastoral elite or to their offspring. It plays out the same way every time it seems.

    The best thing that can happen to a person caught up in a controlling church is to become disillusioned with it and its brand of Jesus, like your blog name expresses. The next step is reclaiming your faith in the true Jesus who didn’t have a Himmler at his side to do his bidding.

  341. Disillusioned – Isn’t it great and painful at the same time to look at our history and see what we gained and lost?

    My favorite movie after getting out has been “Inside the Third Reich” based on the story of HItler’s favorite – Architect Albert Spear. I wish I could hand out DVD’s of this movie. He was in the heart of the ‘inner circle’ of Hitler and he was one of the only ones to survive and write a book on his experience. His detailed account tells what it was like to work to know the leader and experience the pride and thrill of being of being part of the elite.

    The building stage was exciting and personally fulfilling to him, as it is to all of us. He was Hitler’s favorite for a while – then stage 2 began. He gives a detailed account of how he survived going from worshipper to conspirator. When Germany was losing the war and HItler was in the bunker giving orders for a scorched earth and the destruction of his own country it was Spear who found a way to stop his insane orders. I’m so glad the Lord helped me to find this story after I got out. I’m not sure I would have understood it before than.

    Yes JKeller says it right that almost every exile from a controlling group situation relates to these stories of past generals who got in for the right reasons and also get out for the right reasons.

    Its no fun to be used as a pawn, to be scanned for your gifts and talents to see what you can do for the organization. Eventually you see how you let yourself be used just like Spear. Once you see that you’ll never be used in that way again.

    We all had a need, desire or ambition that put us there — fortunately the Lord got us out! The blogs help us have empathy for others and try to bring understanding of what led us there. There’s healing on the way out and writing our stories helps us and others who drop by. I find comfort in reading in the Word ‘and such as is common to man.’ Isn’t that true!

  342. To continue SMiller’s topic @342 “Eventually you see how you let yourself be used… We all had a need, desire or ambition that put us there…”

    It’s so embarrassing when you come to terms with your own motivation for allowing yourself to be duped. Makes you cringe when you think of it. Lots of sighs and eye rolling – gasps and a bit of self loathing. But it’s actually a good place to come to so you can repent of it and begin the spiritual healing process. S Miller is right “such is common to man” – both in good motives and not so good.

    We all come to the truth about ourselves at our own pace. Just like salvation through Christ is an individual awakening to truth by the help of the Holy Spirit, coming to truth in other areas is as well. We can’t make it happen for others. The Lord understands each person’s journey and extends great grace and patience to us all as we take the needed time to see ourselves honestly in a season of spiritual detox.

  343. Someone mentioned the movie about Albert Speer, Hitler’s confidant and chief architect.

    The movie is available for free in 2 parts on YouTube. I watched it. Very interesting.

    Just search “Inside the third Reich” on YouTube.

  344. Although I’m not buying the notion that Speer was a “good” Nazi.

  345. The woman was on staff for many years at Calvary. She left about 6 months ago.
    Given that she was also in a leadership role, it’s even more disheartening.

  346. Coach, if what you say is true, then her identity may need to be revealed. PLEASE notice I said “may”. Let me explain. While I am aware that some women are victims of an unequal power structure that makes the pastor hold sway over them (making it abuse), some women have been known to have histories of causing men to fall in this way. IF it should be found that this woman has such a history,–AND–she is unrepentant– then other fellowships may need to be warned so that her presence may not be a stumbling block to other men. In an unrepentant state, these women would rightly be known as “Jezebels” and should not be allowed to hold any kind of position inside a church. I am NOT trying to say this women fits that profile because I do not know her–I am simply making a statement that this phenomena does exist. When I was very young, I was involved in a CC satellite fellowship in which one of the young women was lethal to the walk of the young men. She was allowed to continue on because she was friends with leadership. It turns out she affected a previous fellowship the same way. She wreaked havoc because no no one was warned.

    Another aspect to this is one that has not been discussed. It is unusual for this to happen–but I have seen it. This would be for the “fallen” woman to want her identity to be known. The reason was that she was very, very sorry and wanted to get ahead of the gossip that was already there. She publicly apologized to the wife and family, asked for forgiveness from wife and congregants and voluntarily went away so that the married couple could go through counseling. Truly this is rare, but it did allow the woman who was guilty to redeem herself and never be talked about as one who did not repent. She was clean before her fellowship and before her God. Frankly, that reaction gets my vote. In the end, it had a good effect on the devastated wife and may have been a factor in that marriage surviving. I know the man and he will never seek an office inside a church again. That also gets my vote.

  347. Based on what I know about this case it would serve absolutely no purpose to identify this woman.
    I also strongly object to the notion of “Jezebels’…what do we call men who are looking for such?

  348. Michael. I was simply trying to give all sides. If what you know makes revealing her identity serve no purpose, then I can accept that. If you read what I said, it was qualified. If you object to the term, “Jezebel”, then suffice to say, within CC walls especially, I saw plenty of women who had no compunction against causing men to fall in this way. If you have a better term, I would be fine with that as well. However, I can attest that I also saw plenty of men with the same predatory behavior. I do not know what word would suffice. In the “old days”, they were called “rakes”. Now I would just call them disgusting wolves who should be put out of the church. My purpose in anything I write, is to proffer up ideas that would make something as hurtful as this situation less likely to happen again. I am sorry if I stated it badly. I do respect your comments.

  349. JM,

    I’ve seen the “Jezebel” designation used in countless Calvary Chapels to deflect blame for sin onto the woman.

    I was taught that “all women are Jezebels” by a CC pastor.

    My information is that Caldwell pursued this woman long after she tried to cut off the relationship…eventually resulting her dismissal when the heat came…

  350. From my understanding from a friend who is very close to this woman.
    The affair went on for 14 years.
    About 5 years ago she tried to break it off.
    Bob wouldn’t leave her alone.
    He kept pursuing her, showing up where he knew she would be,
    scheduling meetings or trips with her.
    He threatened and intimidated her.
    She even contimplated moving.
    However, she didn’t leave her leadership paid staff position until about 5 months ago.
    If it was that bad, why would she continue working for him???
    It is also my understanding that her family knew about the situation several years ago and worked through it.
    To “out” her, I am told, would open those wounds.
    I have issues with this as well
    She to was in a mentoring and leadership role. Is there no accountability on her part?
    I looked up to this woman as well.
    At one point was under her leadership
    for a short time.
    My understanding is she confided in a friend she was in a Bible Study group with.
    She was told she needed to go forward and let Tucker know.
    She refused. So, the woman she confided in went to Tucker.
    I do believe Tucker needs to address the congregation again.
    They read a letter, make a statement and Bob and this woman dissapear.
    Nothing else is said, and everyone moved on like nothing happened.
    Tucker needs to let the congregation know what is happening, is Bob repentive (I am told he is not, he refused counseling from suggestions of elders and fled to Mexixo to see a therapist of his choice that doesn’t even deal in these issues. He also plans to go back into Ministry in one year, and is still trying to control and manipulate everyone).
    What steps are being taken so this never happens again?
    The Calvary Chapel Association on a whole is in shambles. Will we continue to be a Calvary Chapel, or a new church?
    Does Tucker plan to continue in the Moses model design?

  351. Wow! What a mess. The details of these things usually rise to the surface before it’s all said and done.

  352. Michael, Wow!

    I thought what I had been taught at some CC’s was “off the wall”! I had no idea! No wonder you had a reaction. I can promise you that I do not share that warped view of the Jezebel designation. I was genuinely strict in my application. I witnessed the strange way CC’s dealt with women and how they “miscounseled” married couples. I wouldn’t wonder, with the amount of adulterating pastors that CC seems to have produced, that they had to have some way to explain their own failings rather than take responsibility for them. After all, Chuck never required it. I will always believe it was the faulty foundation cemented by Chuck Smith’s own sin that set the stage for so much that is happening now.

    According to what you have shared, then this woman was likely a victim much in the tradition of those decimated by Tullian Tchividjian. I grieve and wonder when will it stop. Thank you so much for your input.

  353. “He also plans to go back into Ministry in one year, and is still trying to control and manipulate everyone.”

    If Bob Caldwell decides to go back into ministry in a year, he will be on the front page of this blog every day until he decides differently.
    That is not a threat, it’s a promise.

  354. JM,

    @353… well said.

  355. Does anyone see any similarities between this and the long term decadence of Bob Coy?

  356. What a mess….praying

  357. reading this thread enforces my view that where sinful – as defined by God, Himself – interactions of a sexual nature take place within the Church there are many reasons (can’t use shades of grey anymore)…
    i have observed women go after a pastor and i have seen attractive, but innocent women accused of doing so, when it was just the hormones of the pastor that were going nutty (the rationale being, “he’s a good and godly man, so she must be doing something to cause him to sin”)… maybe, instead of analyzing the cause, for the Church it should be a black and white issue: don’t do that! period!
    there will always be that lovely yin and yang between the sexes, but we need to call a spade a spade and deal with it, whether it’s our own inclination (which one should be able to deal with without a public intervention, i.e., if you can’t handle yourself, then move on down the road) or a more destructive and egregious public mess-up – but…
    predatory behavior of any stripe should be kicked out church IMO (maybe not kicked out of the Church – only God knows)

    just sayin

  358. Coach @351 On her facebook page is a photo dated August 2016 of the church she and her family now go to – there is a comment under it where she says they have been there since last November which would have been Nov2015. So she couldn’t have left the staff at CCB 5 months ago. Not saying your account is completely wrong, just that point.

    My opinion on whether people know who Bob’s former mistress is:
    While I’m not all for exposing this woman to shame her or open old wounds that she helped create, I don’t understand the need for cover up and protection from public scrutiny. If anyone deserves protection it’s the betrayed family members to whom all sympathy should be given. We obviously can’t protect Cathy and the others, and if we can’t do that, then how can we give protection to Bob or this woman?

    All this may be a moot point since, if you and I know who it is, that means others know. And eventually word will get out because unfortunately that is just how it goes.

  359. The reason for not exposing her is simple.
    We don’t have a warrant to expose repentant sinners to the congregation if they are not an elder in the church.
    It does absolutely no good in affecting their restoration to God and the church…it simply fulfills our need for some sort of justice.
    The goal of church discipline is always repentance and restoration.

    I will not allow any exposure here beyond what is already known.

  360. The fact is that anyone in that church who cares or wants to know who the “woman” is, already knows.

    Even the details shared here today (without revealing her name) about her is most likely enough for folks in the church to figure out who she is.

    To out her and her family publicly is not right in my opinion.

  361. All I can add to this thread is wow. It is actually confirming and healing to many who had doubts questions and red flags in their heart for years and no one would listen.

    This information explains so much on the bad behavior going on there in leadership overall. This is just one situation where it was going on. Maybe it was the most important thing going on there but maybe this scandal/affair/relationship was only one that has come to the surface at that this time.

    Go back and look at Bob Coy and many others as I have said from the beginning of my comments on this thread. It it often the tip of the iceberg that melts and causes a splash and than the rest of it is revealed. Could it be a pattern from way back?

    My concern from the time I was at this church and before was how quickly they took people involved in the Jesus Movement and went against the warning not to put new Christians in leadership. They threw them into the deep end of the pool and promoted them as Pastors from the get go. What is the warning — oh yea don’t do that or they will get in pride and fall.

    I went crazy when my friend who was a brand new Christian was put in an important position almost immediately there with Bob. I knew it was wrong and when I sounded warning bells I was dismissed and cut off for a great number of years. Believe me the tears were flowing as I watched from afar.

    Now this all makes sense. As heartbreaking as this situation is I actually feel a comfort from knowing what was happening. You do not have to name – names Michael. No one is asking to that on this or any other blog I’ve ever read – but there is a great deal of information you can clear up that people have been wondering about for years. This is one of the best teaching tools the Church at Large has now. It has a great amount of lessons here that can be used to help other groups not allow to happen at their church. The question is why wasn’t it dealt with at first hint?

    The only way we get and grow in discernment as Christians and in unity is to see the signs and than walk through the process of trying to reason together and learn how to deal with them. Its not if people are going to fall into a ditch, or sin, they do– but how and when will we deal with it?

    This is not just a member of the church it is the Leader – the Lead Pastor – the one who built this church. It has to be dealt with to the core or you will plant the seeds for the next one.

    People need and want to talk about it. Understanding brings wisdom – above all get understanding about why this went on.

  362. I agree with S Miller – It’s not a matter of naming names to “out” a person. I’m not asking for this blog in particular to name names. This is just part of the discussion and what kinds of questions this type of situation raises. My question is for anyone who feels the need to protect narcissistic and/or sociopathic people when their actions have blown up the worlds of those who have to live with them. They are good at very good at generating sympathy- that’s what they do, part of their M.O.

  363. So, in a pastor-centric, top down leadership model, what can the average attendee do who “discerns” something is wrong with regard to a pastor in sin like Bob Caldwell was. For at least 14 years according to a witness here.

    As long as people fill the pews and the donation boxes, pastors who are involved in sin like this, feel emboldened.

    That is until someone finally comes forward and threatens to blow the top off.

  364. Coach,

    “What steps are being taken so this never happens again?
    The Calvary Chapel Association on a whole is in shambles. Will we continue to be a Calvary Chapel, or a new church?
    Does Tucker plan to continue in the Moses model design?”

    Personally, I wouldn’t step foot inside this church again unless all those questions were answered in full. With 14 years of sordid, behind the scenes debauchery, you can’t tell me nobody knew. Infact, if Bob was able to slip this under the radar of most at CC Boise–there had to be other problems going on that also “slipped” under the radar. Bob’s long term treachery would be indicative of that. I would want a full audit of the money and a full report thereafter. I would also have to know who knew of his behavior and request that these people be dealt with for their sin of complicity. If there would be reluctance on the part of leadership to do any of these things and let the light shine in, I would take that as a bad sign. People who are doing the right thing like to come out into the light so that their deeds may be manifest. Scrutiny doesn’t bother them. Caldwell couldn’t have lived in such darkness for so long except he remained unchallenged–or as I have actually seen before–others around him were in some kind of darkness. There is plenty that doesn’t seem right here. The congregation needs to step up and demand transparency.

  365. @JM 365

    I couldn’t agree with you more. It’s the lack of transparency that is bothering me. I agree, we are not here to demand names or anything like that. But leadership and those involved, Bob and “her” should come forward in order to be restored. Someone said she was not an Elder, this is splitting hairs IMO. She was in leadership for years, mentoring, in a position of influence in the body of Christ. She should be held to the same level of accountability as any leader. I’m not asking for this blog to name names, I just really like the way you put it JM.

    “People who are doing the right thing like to come out into the light so that their deeds may be manifest. Scrutiny doesn’t bother them.”

    I’m pointing that statement not only at her but at current leadership, at Tucker. Enough already, out with all the truth. Make a plan for going forward and on with the healing. I said this before, you can’t heal a wound until you clean it all out.

    Let me put it another way. It is not for us to demand, I agree with those who say that would be for our own curiosity. But if this isn’t done as prescribed it leaves behind a stench, or a sting that for many won’t go away. It is living with sin, it is more sin. But by the very grace we have all received I know we are not to ask for heads on plates. This is more a matter of restoring trust in a church body and creating a healthy model of leadership and accountability going forward.

    If future leaders and their mistresses know their names will come out, that could be a pretty good deterrent…

  366. On thre recommendation of a poster on this thread I watched the movie about Albert Speers who was Hitler’s chief architect and confidant. Also known as the “Good Nazi.”

    After the war he was tried and served 20 years in prison.

    He claimed he didn’t know about Hitlers plan to exterminate the Jews in via the “Final Solution.”

    After he was released he wrote the book “Inside the third Reich.” Made oodles of money on royalties, traveled around the world doing interviews and became somewhat of celebrity.

    I think people were enamored with his so-called “transparency”. Yet, it was uncovered in 2005 through a letter he had written that he had attended a meeting where Himmler outlined the final solution. So, he knew. He exercised limited transparency and continued to profit off his notoriety until his death.

    Which to me is similar to what a lot of the celebrity pastors do who get caught, are “reformed” and roll right back into the ministry stream.

  367. Furthermore – when I read the latest discussion in this thread to my better half he reminded me of this point: The New Testament reminds us to take heed lest we fall when it comes to judging sin. If all parties are not exposed then it makes it easier for a person not in ministry to think he or she will get away with it simply because he-she is not an elder or whatnot? Only the pastor person will be publically examined? What is this a new precedent? Paul said they both need to be brought forward.

    And furthermore what if the person WAS in ministry at the time of the affair-betrayal-of-the-sacred-trust as Coach mentioned? Just because you are no longer there means there no accountability? Exposure of the woman doesn’t have to happen here on this blog which is not even in the same state where it all happened. But I agree with Coach that Tucker and his elders need to address this again here in Boise in their church. They owe the people that much.

  368. Side note/question: I’ve seen several posts over the past few weeks mentioning or hinting/alluding to a secret sin of Chuck Smiths that, it is said or implied, may be at the core of the adultery and secrecy issues in CC overall.

    Why is it that no one actually comes out and says what happened? Is it a “probably true but not provable” kind of thing?

  369. “Therefore let anyone who thinks that he stands take heed lest he fall” says absolutely nothing about exposure.

    Nothing.

    “Paul said they both need to be brought forward”.

    Can you show me where?

    Sometimes it’s easy to tell where people went to church…

  370. #370

    Um, that comment was not directed toward my post at #369, right?

    (I’m assuming not)

  371. Stephen,

    I’m writing about the Smith issue in my book.
    It’s too complex for a blog.

  372. @371 no Stephen, it was directed at JKeller @368 where I said they both should be brought forward but I apparently Michael thinks the pastor alone should go to the gallows.

    Michael – apparently you are an authority on church discipline and I didn’t know it not having been on your blog before the Bobscapade was announced by yourself and no where else to be seen on the internet, thus my presence here. And why is that? Why is no one else talking about this?

    So where do you think I go to church? If you would have taken the time to READ anything I have written on this thread you would see I no longer go to church.

    I would think 1 Cor 5:11 would cover both pastor and support staff or congregant for that matter when Paul says “anyone” but what do I know? I’m not locked into the church world vortex and could care less how it tries to deal with their pastors’ voracious lust for women and power. In fact the church discipline thing isn’t even an issue as far as I’m concerned; it’s the fairness of dealing with people respectfully and equally that matters to most of the lowly non-clergy. But admitting that will most certainly nullify my right to have an opinion in the eyes of those who are inside the walls of the IC.

    Looking from the outside in, the whole thing looks like a circus to me. And I’m not alone. The whole world looks in and says What?!

    What we have been trying to say all along on this thread is we saw weirdness and things that didn’t add up early on when we did attend CCB, but no one wants to hear that. There is no room to point anything out in this kind of world without looking like you have some kind of problem or don’t have the knitpicky doctrine correct.

    You can have your four walls. Good luck bringing anyone into an eternal relationship with Jesus with this kind of cluster.

    🎪🙈🙉🙊

  373. J Keller,

    I’ve been reporting these issues online for decade and a half.
    The only thing I hold in as much contempt as corrupt leadership is scripture twisting by anyone.
    There are two distinctions that need to be made if we are to deal with these issues biblically.
    The first is that there are different standards for elders in the church than for the rank and file.
    The second is that passages like 1 Cor 5:11 speak to unrepentant sinners, not sinners who have come to repentance.
    The goal of the church is ALWAYS repentance and restoration.
    If we don’t act biblically in all matters, than we have no moral authority to ever act at all.
    Every report I have is that this woman has repented and is under the care of a local church.
    Our only concern at this point should be that she continues to show the fruits of repentance and is restored to the full joy of her salvation.

  374. “Our only concern at this point should be that she continues to show the fruits of repentance and is restored to the full joy of her salvation.”

    Good word Michael. I hear David’s prayer echoed by your concern:

    “Restore to me the joy of your salvation, and uphold me with a willing spirit.” (Ps 51:12)

  375. Thank you, Jean…

  376. I love a good discussion – and thats what a blog can be – picture a family who can discuss topics around a dinner table, who can agree to disagree. In fact I was picturing how many kinds of fellowships there are who could or have had this same discussion through the centuries.

    Deciding whats Biblical or not depends on the interpretation. Some truths we hold self evident – ha! Sorry thats the constitution but we all agree this situation is unbiblical. The steps on how to deal with it are not always so crystal clear or we would all be in the same denomination.

    Each one of us has different Christian educations and backgrounds that make it a challenge to state what is Biblical in a situation. I love that the discussion is taking place amongst thinking Christians who care. The opposite would be apathy. Just like the family dinner table it can get a little heated but that is a good thing. I think Paul would approve.

    You find out what you believe by having to defend it rationally, with examples and overall wisdom. Remember this is not an exact science but a discussion to be able to defend what we believe and to be able to give a reason why. No wonder its such a challenge for Christians to do this and easier to let someone else make all the decisions for us.

    One thing I know I was thanking God that I m still learning from this church even if I was led to leave. It is still teaching me and that is a good thing. Good discussion – now finish your dinner.

  377. “The goal of the church is ALWAYS repentance and restoration” yes, and i do amen that the two are stated in the correct order…

    what i am not sure that i can agree with is that the erring party or parties have the right to privacy… most especially IF they have been in leadership or teaching positions… i love the impulse to chivalry – keeping the woman from public exposure – but that said, i’m not sure that this is always her right… most especially where there has been what must be described as ongoing treacherous conduct against innocent spouses and families… sometimes IMHO one size/answer does not fit all – or so it seems to me

    David said to God, “against Thee only have I sinned.” well, yes, but his repentance was rather public and, for certain, he was going to have to wait until Eternity to ask Uriah’s forgiveness… some, maybe most, sins are not tidy or easily cleaned up – except that the confession made to God which is always job one

  378. Michael… Respectfully… If Bob went to another church and repented, wouldn’t that be problematic? That’s like King David going to another kingdom to confess his problems with Bathsheeba.

    How comforting it must be to not have to face those you sinned against… if the church being all encompassing “the church” then wherever she goes to church ought to hand her over to CCB for discipline so that she might repent against those she hurt at CCB.

    There is a double standard going on here, it is subtle but important… and maybe it’s not so subtle? Why is Bob in Mexico and not here dealing with things… this doesn’t seem like Biblical church discipline, it looks a lot like running away by both parties.

    J Keller, you have a point and it sounds like you’re familiar with the “IC”. I doubt very much you’re more immune than anyone else to having a personal perspective that may change as you learn and grow… careful to not sound like you’re the only one with a walk with Jesus just because you are not “IC”. I would say you are but you have decided it is not for you, that makes the rest of us lacking enlightenment? I support your points regarding accountability, fairness, and having an outside perspective… but the rest you can leave at whatever gate you feel you stand in.

    And Jean, I’m sorry, but it is nearly trite to step into a lively discussion and just say things out of context like “Peace brothers, love, love, love”. Step up and have an opinion on the relevant topic at hand, or write a devotional…. never mind. I have a Bible.

    Michael, thank you for providing this BLOG. Without it, much would remain in the dark and I have actually gained much in learning from others perspectives.

  379. Drawing in the Sand – I apologize that I came across in my tone as better than thou.
    I was having a bit of an overreaction to the one time Michael addressed me personally on his blog in which his tone was condescending because I didn’t quote the Bible correctly.

    I don’t feel that people in the IC are unenlightened idiots. To the contrary I realize that each person is on their own personal path with Jesus and each person hears his voice and hopefully follows it. That could be in a church or in a home study with those He teams you up with. Those of us outside the four walls feel the judgment though from those who choose to stay inside the IC and our opinions are often discounted because of that.

  380. “Michael… Respectfully… If Bob went to another church and repented, wouldn’t that be problematic?”

    Of course it would be.

    Again, there are biblical differences in the standards for leaders.

    In a perfect world, one in which the church was modeled as it is biblically, as a family…both parties would receive care for their souls within the community they sinned in.

    We don’t live in that world and we use a corporate model, not a biblical one.

    What I keep hearing on this thread is that people want to hold this womans feet to the fire…even though by all accounts she has repented and indeed, may even be a victim of a leader using an imbalance of power to bring her into his sin.

    The point being missed is that once a sinner repents, it is the job of the church to care for that person through the process of repentance and restoration, not grind them to powder for the benefit of the congregation.

    We do not know what the leadership of CC Boise has asked of her, they may have even requested that she find another place to worship.

    Finally, it seems that some here want this woman to “pay” for her sins.

    I would submit first that they have already cost her plenty…but more importantly, I would remind you all the Jesus paid for all her sins, and yours and mine.

    Thus, we are free to love this person and her family back to spiritual health.
    Indeed, we are commanded to do so.

  381. “…..What I keep hearing on this thread is that people want to hold this womans feet to the fire…even though by all accounts she has repented …..”

    let me then be clear that my question was directed as to whether or not, in a case such as i have read described here, there should not be a public confession – rather than the right to just privately sneak away to start over as if nothing had happened…
    i was not advocating “holding feet to the fire” as, most certainly confession and repentance should be followed by restoration … compassion for the forgiven is the responsibility of one’s fellow Believers and should be “as if nothing had happened” from that point on … IMHO
    otherwise, one’s fellow Believers are just as guilty … IMHO … again 🙂

    and by that standard, i fear that there are more guilty Believers out there than we know – God help me to see more clearly

  382. Why in the world would we demand public confession of someone for one class of sin and not all sin?
    There is nothing in the Bible that demands such and the expectation that one would have to publicly confess their sins would either empty out the churches or make everyone in them a liar.
    From all reports I have, this woman has confessed her sin to the appropriate people and is walking in repentance.
    The long term effects of her sin will undoubtedly follow her for years to come.
    Our job (the job of the local church she is part of) is to encourage and affirm her in her journey, not place demands on her that Christ does not.

  383. Hello Everyone,

    I have not visited this blog for quite a while, I do appreciate the dialog and earnest direction of seeking God and building up one another.
    I want to say a few things as I promised a dear friend that I would help stop any gossiping about this situation with Bob Caldwell and the other woman. I have known both for many years and I am a close friend to the other woman. Coach #351 not everything you listed is accurate because of this “my understanding from a friend” comment, this is how gossiping and pain starts. I am letting you all know that this gal is a dear sister, she has repented, she clearly understands the pain that was caused. Who do you think finally went to the leadership for counsel and help to keep a manipulating Bob from controlling her life, it was her. With that said I want you all to know the truth so gossiping and exposing her can end. She is reaching out to those she needs to for forgiveness and restoration. She is completely humble and broken and is a pure example of someone who has fallen at the feet of Jesus. This is all I have to say. I hope you all will keep her in prayer for continued healing, she has exposed her heart and needs our prayers and to stop any gossiping. God is already using her; her example is so pure and honest and we need to extend grace and love towards her.
    Bob slithers away like a snake and he is a scumbag.

  384. #383 – we don’t demand public confession of sin… for the most part our sins are between us and God alone… except 🙂
    there are instances where one’s sin has impacted lives, both public and private, in such a way that a public confession clears the air and makes certain that the rumors and unknown wounds are addressed… or so it seems to me…
    thinking… thinking…
    i am a woman working in the church, doing a pretty good job and am held in some esteem by the congregation as a God fearing and serving person… what the congregation doesn’t know is that for years i have been the other woman, the mistress of the pastor… now it is rumored thru the congregation that Pastor Good Guy has a mistress of many years – many are thrown off and their trust in God as well as old Pastor Good Guy is off balanced, at the least, and some are so wounded that they begin to question their discernment of what really is good and evil…
    what Pastor Good Guy does now is up to him, but i am not a victim, i am/was a participant in this and i have had a public persona in this fellowship…
    so, yes, i still think that this calls for my confession to the congregation, my repentance and, most probably (which in this case was done) a move on down the road

    but that’s just me, putting myself in someone else’s shoes as best i can and thinking on it…

  385. How would we know the process and pain and steps the woman involved had gone through unless it were for this blog and interested participants and writers coming forward and speaking what they hope will bring truth?

    How will the congregation who were there long term ever know or get understanding of what happened in this scenario that was by two public people in this ministry who were in leadership positions?

    When you bond people in the way we do now to our celebrity – one man Pastoral System with all their ‘personal stories’ about their wive and family through the years – 52 weeks a year – why wouldn’t they have a vested interest in knowing what the end of the story was as Paul Harvey says? Do they suddenly just disengage their hearts and spirits that are deeply entrenched in this Lead Pastors lives?

    Don’t you think thats a bit too much of any human being who is not a robot?

  386. Thanks to There is Hope and em again for taking the time to try to bring more information to this story – which again is not a church member or participant. You are adding to the fact pile that will have to be sorted through for a long time to get the total picture.

    I find that we have already heard such a wide range of stories already! There has not been one consistent story yet – much like a 20 car pile up on the freeway. Everyone has a new perspective each time we hear a report.

    Legal professionals will tell you the truth lies somewhere in between!

  387. Wow, as a long time attendee of CCB and someone who Pastor Bob has had a profound impact upon.. I just don’t know what to say!? I feel empty inside and like I’ve been duped. Truly want to believe that it wasn’t all B.S but it may have been sadly. Also I think I had an odd feeling that there was something funny going on with one of the women ( similar looking to Kathy but younger) who was involved in the India ministry. Never could quite put a finger on it but whenever I saw her I felt that way. Someone tell me.. we’re all sinners and saved by grace but how in the world was Bob able to live a double life for over a decade???

  388. #387 – one thing that this thread should have produced (a good thing) is a frame of reference for all of us who have thoughtfully read all the nuances rehearsed here…
    now, as life unfolds for us, this thread should result in both strength and compassion… IMHO …
    there is such a thing as right and wrong, the product of most sins are not easily worked through to a good conclusion when they’ve involved others, but as Michael and others have pointed out, they can be worked thru and grace and holiness can meet to resolve and, hopefully dissolve, the products of sin

  389. This is a big blot on organized religion, so sad. Hail to the true King… Jesus!

  390. RSFB, thinking on that question you just posed about a double life…
    one of the great human foibles that i have witnesses over the years is our ability to lie to ourselves… we find it easiest to believe what we want to believe and to rationalize to justify what is really only serving our own appetites and insecurities… and, boy does the devil know it and play on it… the man was not walking with God, but i’d bet – dunno – that he told himself he was…
    without grace we’d be in a sorry mess … somehow, i think God knows that 🙂

  391. Also Bob’s sermons definitely lacked saltiness the last handful of years, I thought this was due to India being his true calling and burnout on his part not this. Someone tell me Pastor Bob was in it for the right reasons despite his fall???

  392. #391 thanks for the response. I truly viewed Bob as a father figure like many, what in your opinion led him astray? His celebrity?

  393. RFSB, lack of accountability. He was in a place where he either couldn’t or wouldn’t confess his temptations when they arose. He was too big to be corrected, too exalted to be humble. God help him.

    I am as hurt as you. I stopped going to CCB. I just want to move on from the whole mess.

  394. Yeah we started attending in 04′ and quit right after he stepped down but had been contemplating it for a couple yrs. like I say, really felt like he was going through the motions at the end. Found the church through pure word and like I said in an earlier post.. Bob was a hero because of our similar backgrounds. I want to believe he is a heartfelt guy that just got ensnared, have a hard time stomaching him being some kinda wolf in sheeps clothing 🙁

  395. RSFB –
    @395 The saved and healed part of most likely was in it for the good reasons you are hoping for. The untransformed or let’s say yet-to-be transformed part of Bob must have got in the way of that. A friend who once worked with him put it this way – he was healed to the extent he allowed God to heal him from his growing up years.

    I’m wondering if we would be seeing so many pastors falling like flies if they had submitted themselves to thorough counseling as unresolved problems from their pasts presented themselves any given time in their ministries. We’ve assumed these leaders were healed and set free because of what they told us in stories and teachings on Sundays and Wednesdays.

    I can feel your pain in realizing Bob could have been living a double life over the years. The hardest part about having a hero is when you realize they are seriously flawed just like the rest of us. The one constant we have is Jesus – He is the perfect one. He won’t fall into sin and He deserves to be the only hero of our lives. We have all had other heros and we are each learning what it is to let that idea go. As we keep looking at Jesus and to Him, our faith will remain intact and He will lead us to safety.

  396. Meant to say the saved and healed part of Bob in the comment above

  397. #393 – the simple answer, the most basic one, to that question is that this man, like us all, carries an old sin nature throughout this life … beyond that i don’t know ‘why’ he indulged so egregiously – was he/is he a Believer? all we can do is pray for him – he certainly needs to repent… to loosely quote a famous old sermon: “it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of an angry God” – thank God for His mercies and hope … and grace

  398. Do churches like CCB ever offer any kind support group for people who are reeling from the announcement that the pastor they have supported for years is now no longer there? especially if it’s due to a betrayal of trust. Couldn’t they offer some kind of open forum that is like a blog but more like a small group set up for sharing and prayer? When I read what people on this thread are going through it breaks your heart and a blog can only do so much given that a lot of the people succumb to guilt thinking this is all gossip and don’t come back for that reason. Not only that reason.

    I’ve never heard of a church offering that but there may be some that do that and if so how did it go? Did it help? CCB might be able to heal together if they tried something like that.

  399. J Keller,

    It hasn’t happened in any circumstance I know of.
    To do so would challenge the ecclesiology that created the problem in the first place…

  400. Michael,

    I didn’t think so but thought there may be other types of churches that would.

    Can you imagine a’week night open-mic support forum where people struggling with this type of thing can air their feelings and frustrations? The lead pastor could be the opening commenter by saying how this is affecting him in an honest way and what he is reading or doing to get through it. He could have one of his asst pastors moderate. Yes it could get messy or out of hand just like a blog does sometimes, but what is the worst thing that can happen? It unifies the leaders and people in trying to process something together.

    It could be a risk worth taking for the sake of the emotional health for all involved.

    It would be better than another sermon that has nothing to do with the elephant in the room as if nothing has really happened.

  401. To those asking recently on this blog thread about what led Bob to commit adultery, please understand that having sex outside of marriage was not a singular marker in his self destruction. It is part of a pattern from his self consumed, “must be in charge” addictive personality that he did not allow God to heal. He was always deceptive, manipulative and freaked out about how he was perceived, all the while trying to create the illusion of just the opposite. He was a victim of his own making. And victimized hundreds over the years. The people around him that tried to hold him accountable were each eliminated by his method of sowing disqualifying “evidence” against them. He did not have peers. He made each person that got close think they were, but was only grooming for his purposes. He was somewhat ignorant in this regard to his own level of sin.

    I cannot overstate how this was always there. If you did not get into the inner workings, you believed the image he projected. I watched over the years as I believed in the image until I could no longer deny the mountains of evidence that I had dismissed. By loving friends I was gently confronted. Each of us were groomed to be a part of supporting that image. If we did not tow the line, we were chastised, maligned and made to think we were the problem.

    Classic abuser behavior. The female party in what is being called the affair was also groomed to maintain Bobs image. As she gets counseling and becomes healed by Gods grace and provision, she will see all the ways that he groomed her, then trapped her, until she was caught. Then he blamed her.

    As a side note, the poster that gave the account from the female participant, thanks for the accurate details. It is necessary to know the truth. Please do a study of how the simple use of the word gossip has been misused by both innocent and abusers to shut down all conversation. Gossip is defined by the intent of the heart. It is not, however genuine concern and nessicity of bringing truth and fact finding. Gossip is such a classic way of twisting Gods word, like Satan did. We have learned not to be shamed out of seeking truth, and the whole story. Otherwise, we could say God is a gossip for all the sins He had the Bible authors document. As Michael often says, make your own application.

  402. I think those of us that were longtime attendees that literally gave thousands of $ to this train wreck are owed some answers.. what longtime evidence are you speaking of re: Bob??? I’d like to know what you’re referring to?

  403. We’re there financial improprieties as well???

  404. #402 makes a good observation concerning gossip… however, wherever there is talk that is derogatory, it should be incumbent upon those who can do so, to set the record straight where possible

  405. RSFB –

    Your questions are valid and why I think that CCB could be holding some kind of support meeting(s) for longtime attendees like you, as ludicrous as it sounds. It would give the leadership a forum to be honest – tell everything – then deal with it together with the people not off in some conference room apart from the people. But no, let’s keep the secrets secret and try to continue as if nothing happened. Then later down the road run the risk of falling into the similar pits because there is no transparency.

    What a perfect opportunity to clean house and begin with a clean slate. Why would they want to bring all Bob’s baggage with them?

    I know it will be said that it’s more complicated than that, but you have to start somewhere. It could be a complete cluster but it’s a “train wreck” already.

  406. Michael,

    “It hasn’t happened in any circumstance I know of.
    To do so would challenge the ecclesiology that created the problem in the first place…”

    Very Revealing comment. It is why I have advocated that Calvary Chapel, in its present incarnation be dissolved. Bob Coy and Bob Caldwell are only the more recent and public examples of the kind of rot that has existed inside this “association” for decades because of lax moral standards from the top down. There is much that still needs to be exposed. (There have been attempts to cover up cases of child molestation in some churches–including CCCM.) Though these perverts may try to hide–God is not mocked. If they will not come out and confess their sin–God, Himself, will expose them. There will be more. Knowing human nature, however, the rats and roaches that continue to live in the dark, like Coy and Caldwell (and those that enable them), will fight tooth and nail before allowing exposure–unfortunately–making the process rather a lengthy one.

    I wrote before that my desire is to see that whatever is necessary will be done to prevent these kinds of abominations from ever happening again. Infact, I rather like what you have proposed on your sight, Michael. ( http://michaelnewnham.com/?page_id=22711 ) It is well thought out and likely a product of both experiencing and watching too many of these situations play out over the years.

    I went through painful separations with not one–but four CC’s. I gave the Reader’s Digest version awhile back and will not share it again at this juncture because it would not be fair to take the spotlight from this situation or those that are presently suffering and deserve to be comforted. I would say that any organization that is too weak to not only see the corruption inside itself and call it what it is or even deal with it properly when discovered, is too sick to continue. It’s time to start over.

    I think the ongoing CC split is good. It has the purpose of identifying the different factions and allows them to go their separate ways. What would be bad would be if it is done with animus. I will let God convict hearts where applicable. However, neither side will survive if they take even a micron of the CC leaven with them. (The bad fruit of the sick, top heavy Moses Model continues to leave many wounded in its wake as it has at CCB.) Infact, I will go even further. I would say, if Brodersen (now CCGN), or the other faction (now CCA) want to go forward, they need to step up and do much of what I will delineate. They need to acknowledge the sins of Calvary Chapel and make it clear that they will no longer follow the pattern they were given. They need to “clean house” and those who are discovered to be disqualified over sexual sin or abuse issues need to be shown the door–EVEN IF some of these were their friends! (Our fidelity is to God. Not a sinful man!) They need to call out to those who have been disenfranchised through mistreatment of any kind and validate their pain. Like the Holocaust–don’t be stupid enough to say it never happened. There’s too much evidence. To try and say differently in light of all the reports would assume the congregation is stupid and again subjugates them. It would reveal a low view of the people you would claim to want to serve and work against any belief that you had a shepherd’s heart. I would reject any pastor who attempted to do that and I would recommend to my brethren that they also reject any pastor who would not deal honestly with what has happened to the legions of people that have been harmed by Calvary Chapel’s policies.

    I would say to those who are hurting in he wake of the CCB debacle, that when the smoke clears and when you feel strong again, you may find yourself praising God. I don’t mean because evil got far enough to cause you harm, of course. I am talking about the new way in which you will now have to approach your faith and your life. If you resist the urge to be bitter and hold to the fact that God can redeem anything–if you let Him–these very painful episodes can be turned into opportunities for a cleansing of yourselves and your attitudes. They can, when approached in brokenness, incite tremendous growth. I know. I have lived it. The verse that played inside of my mind over and over was that there is one mediator between God and man–Christ Jesus. (Not my pastor!) I went back to explore my own relationship with God and realized that my relationship with Him produced just as many worthy ideas as those who claimed to stand above me in the past. I came away with a new confidence that God could speak to me directly as I read the Bible, prayed or conversed with another believer. I have seen the most incredible commentary here by people who were congregants of CCB. This testifies that you are going to be okay and that God has probably worked more into you than you realize. You just needed a forum for God to use those gifts and talents. Obviously–CCB was not it.

    Because confusion can sometimes creep in, I will offer some disclaimers in this paragraph. I do believe there are some CC pastors who are genuine and who are just as appalled at the present state of things as I am. My problem is that many have not been public enough about their disagreement with the sicker CC policies and many have ignored the issue of their victims. I also believe that fellowship with other believers is the best scenario–if you can find one that is safe and balanced. (After the kind of trauma one has experienced in the Caldwell aftermath–you’re not obligated to be stupid or in a rush.)

    I think God is preparing His church for what is to come so that we may stand strong and completely “in Him” (not on a denomination, or, “of Paul or Apollos”, etc., etc.). I found this verse in the Amplified rather edifying: “Rather, let our lives lovingly express truth in all things–speaking truly, dealing truly living truly. Enfolded in love, LET US GROW UP IN EVERY WAY AND IN ALL THINGS INTO HIM, Who is the Head, [even] Christ, the Messiah, the Anointed One.”, Ephesians 4:15.

    Your faith and your hope have been temporarily stifled, but be of good cheer. This is not the end–it is likely a beginning.

  407. “I think God is preparing His church for what is to come so that we may stand strong and completely “in Him” (not on a denomination, or, “of Paul or Apollos”, etc., etc.). I found this verse in the Amplified rather edifying: “Rather, let our lives lovingly express truth in all things–speaking truly, dealing truly living truly. Enfolded in love, LET US GROW UP IN EVERY WAY AND IN ALL THINGS INTO HIM, Who is the Head, [even] Christ, the Messiah, the Anointed One.”, Ephesians 4:15.

    Your faith and your hope have been temporarily stifled, but be of good cheer. This is not the end–it is likely a beginning.”

    Beautifully said JM! As we hold fast to our faith in Jesus we become testimonies of this very thing. He makes all things new.

  408. Kudos to you, too, J Keller! He does, indeed, make all things new!

  409. RSFB @ #403
    My comment about mountains of evidence was in reference to behavior patterns. I came to see the patterns after a friend gave me a great book, Healing for Adult children of Alcoholics, for an extended family issue. As I studied the book and applied its findings and explanations to my extended family situation, the concepts gained traction in my thinking process. Then one day, the Lord literally moved my gaze from that situation to Bob Caldwell. The veil of his deception was, for me, lifted. Because I had learned the patterns and issues in this other situation, I quickly was able to understand his issues, that I had been giving the benefit of the doubt to him. However, I was unable to see that led all the way to betraying his vows to his wife. I simply thought he would never cross that line. Boy was I wrong.

  410. JM @ #407

    Thank you for your outline and call to change in the institutional church establishment called Calvary Chapel. It is all well though out. The part that touches me deeply is calling for the institution to tell the whole truth and acknowledge the pain caused and that the hurt we all feel at being hoodwinked is something they need to make restitution for. That is biblical.

    J Keller, you also have outlined how the church culture could change by getting the whole truth out and dealing with it together.Excellent way to forgive, followed by genuine reconciliation. As you both stated, the culture has been to let the dumb sheep know only what there little minds can handle, and we will handle the rest. “Trust us”. We did that. That’s what got us where we are. Change or be left in the dust. God is not mocked.

  411. “They need to acknowledge the sins of Calvary Chapel and make it clear that they will no longer follow the pattern they were given. They need to “clean house” and those who are discovered to be disqualified over sexual sin or abuse issues need to be shown the door–EVEN IF some of these were their friends! (Our fidelity is to God. Not a sinful man!) They need to call out to those who have been disenfranchised through mistreatment of any kind and validate their pain. ”

    None of the above will ever happen and it is a waste of time and energy to pursue it.
    I will write an article explaining why soon…

  412. much prayer and fasting is needed here.

  413. praying for those who were hurt by this and have come here to find peace….may you find it here.

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