Dec 182016
 

Calvary Chapel Boise pastor Tucker Maile announced that former pastor and former Calvary Chapel Association member Bob Caldwell confessed to adultery two weeks ago.

The audio of that announcement can be found here

  673 Responses to “Calvary Chapel Boise Announces Caldwell Confession to Adultery”

  1. *facepalm*

    So he confessed to it two weeks ago. So either he hid it and lied about it when he stepped down from pastoral ministry and the CCA….or he stepped down for other reasons.

    I see no connections between the two yet. Hopefully the forthcoming statement will settle it.

  2. According to the statement he hid it…

  3. Another one bites the dust. So sad. Another reminder that this could be any of us.

  4. I don’t understand why it’s seemingly so difficult for people to not commit adultery.

  5. I am saddened and sorry to read this. While many will be angry, I assure you there is much weeping and anguish behind the scenes. Another family trashed. Needless tragedy.

  6. Two families trashed…

  7. I will never understand how a man can give up so much for so little. He gives up his reputation, the respect of those who admired him, hurts those same, smears the name of his Lord amongst the world as they view this conduct as just one more hypocrite who does not practice what he preaches, and it could cost him his family… all for what? A few moments or nights of fleeting pleasure?
    Sad.

  8. And when I think about it.. what makes it even worse is the lying. He stated he was leaving the pastorate because basically God has a new call on his life… missionary work. So off he went doing missions work like nothing had happened, in effect working to stumble even more people, those he touched in his mission work who may now find out as young believers that they missionary they held in esteem was a lying adulterer. SMH…

  9. You know what? It’s our human nature to hide sin. Adam and Eve did it, and we still do. It’s also our human nature to blame others for our sins. We so need the Lord.

    It’s a sad thing, and it’s doubly sad that children and a congregation are involved.

    I still say pray…pray that his wife and children can move beyond this and grow in their relationship with the Lord, pray that they be restored and that their faith does not suffer, pray that he repents, pray that new believers in the congregation are not put off from the church. Pray that the Lord prevails in all…

  10. “Pray that the Lord prevails in all…” yes, amen…
    and He will do so where hearts turn to Him – pray that no one who names the name of Jesus Christ finds themselves gloating over this shameful self indulgence – no matter how we might try to analyze and tweek this sort of thing, in the end the sin is putting oneself (or another human) above the God Who has shown such love and grace to us

  11. When are people going to realize that there is only one kind of Christian: the sinner kind. When people realize that, they set up institutions with checks and balances, accountability and policies appropriate for the office.

  12. My great fear is that all of these situations coming out are only the tip of a very large iceberg. The cover up of this kind of sin was sanctioned for decades by no less than Chuck Smith (who also was said to have committed this sin). It permeated the culture and has always been there. The truth of its depth is simply coming out now. Perhaps the painful fallout which is now more public due to the blogosphere will finally be the incentive to deal with it. It could be God himself that is forcing all of this into the light. God loves us but is constrained in the face of unconfessed sin in the camp. James says that pastors will be judged more severely so it is Scripture that one would quarrel with as to why their sin is different. Indeed, if unchecked sin by the leaders has left the sheep uncared for or abused, God will not allow it forever. He loves His church. If Biblical history is a good indicator of what is to come, He will allow time for the remaining guilty pastors to repent and remove themselves. If they do not He will expose them. It is a fearful thing to mess with God’s church. That’s why there is a warning for “not many to become teachers”.

  13. VERY good point Jean!

  14. Jean. I love your point.

    Having said that, why is it that Paul laid out the guidelines for pastors in the Pastoral Epistles? You know the ones; having one wife, being sober, ect…?

    We are not bad people made good. We were dead people made alive. Lost people that are saved. Yet….

    Those pastoral guidelines are still there. Right?

  15. Why the shock he hid it or anyone of “the church” does, for what is most paramount as has been proven for decades now is appearances.
    Men/women do not have safe places in which to confess and/or ask for help, instead pretending is the the 11th commandment. Pretend “we” do it “right” (pun intended), “we” the closest to Jesus’ heart, etc.
    Obviously we don’t know “the whole story,” but I’d bet Bob found himself in a place of absolute holiness or despair and it was for that he sought comfort elsewhere.
    Men and women may commit adultery for different reasons, but the underlying reasons are the same and its a shame, eventually upon Jesus Himself, we continue to refuse each other concern and care.
    THIS is the main reason why I so despise the Caesar-model of church government, it sentences another sinner whom I’m supposed to love as a brother to abject solitude and self-dependency, robbing him of love and care that rest of us may take advantage.
    I have never hated anyone like this so I will continue to hope/pray men will be released from this prison of their pride.
    By the way, I’m not absolving Bob of any wrong or blaming anyone else, just resisting the fad of deflecting from seeing the whole picture. Having a burn-Bob-at-the-stake party is what is usually done and continue to ignore what this and so many similar situations share.
    To do anything other is to force all of us to stop tending our sacred cows.
    The very foundations of this “movement” are finally shows to be cracked, and continue to crack. Obviously all other works of God have been attacked, but so few are so completely unable, unwilling, and so blind to their own state as this.

  16. Yes Costco, absolutely the qualifications of 1 Tim are still applicable. My point was that if your starting point is that the pastor is every bit as human and fallible as the laity, then how might you protect him, his family and the laity from the temptation of infidelity?

  17. “Those pastoral guidelines are still there. Right?”

    Yes, but no one pays attention to them – unless they are written down directly in the churches by laws. Then they become a contract, or placed right it the pastor’s employee contract.

    Whne was the last time you saw a pastor resign, or the board kick him out because his kids were rebellious – or any of his children not believers?

  18. So Bob resigns and lies about why he stepped down almost a year ago, and today someone other than Bob informs the church why he really stepped down? Bob doesn’t bother to tell the people that love him and paid his salary what he did? This whole thing stinks.

  19. #11.

    Jean, you are EXACTLY Right!!!

  20. MLD. I was a rotten kid in elementary school. Glad my dad didn’t get fired for that!

  21. #18:

    Yeah..I thought the same exact thing. What the heck?? Waited almost a YEAR and had SOMEONE ELSE tell everyone?

    So, where is he now? He needs to step down from ANY leadership position…even “focusing on missionary work.”

  22. Question:

    So, why doesn’t anyone talk about the second person involved in this fiasco? If he’s publically shames, why not her (or God forbid: him) too?

  23. Jean. Good question. Knowing he is as fallible or prone to temptation as his congregation is a good foundation to build on.

  24. My opinion, Stephen, is to cool your jets on publically shaming her!

  25. Costco – but he should have right?

    What if a pastor has a kid in jail – should he be kicked out of his pastorate?

  26. There are many reasons behind the scenes why folks can commit adultery.

    The marriage partners can drift apart and become emotionally vacant towards one another.

    No longer experiencing Bride and Groom love for one another.

    Leaving them susceptible to enticement for someone outside the inner circle of marriage that “understands me” or who “truly cares about me,” the reasons are many and varied.

    Bottom line is they slip and fall down.

    They become numb and unresponsive to the reality of the situation for a season or so.

    But the Holy Spirit never gives up on them.

    He has been called the “hound of heaven” by some because of His unrelenting pursuit.

    He chases after us in love with the intent of overtaking us and causing us to open our eyes and repent.

    He brings conviction of sin.

    But prior to this there is always the attempt to hide our sin to save face.

    As someone stated, it could be anyone of us.

    We are all flesh and very capable of moral failures.

    Bob Caldwell fell as has many others and as many others will.

    None of us is perfect.

    We have mercy and grace extended towards him in our hearts with the knowledge that if he is truly one of God’s kids, he will respond to the Holy Spirit and repent.

    None the less we know that he is in good hands as are we.

    The Holy Spirit’s loving presence, bringing to us what we truly need in each and every circumstance of our lives.

    We shout GRACE to the man of God!

    We say to him, stand up and be strong in the Lord Jesus Christ and finish the race set before you well!

    Setting aside each and ever encumbrance.

    Turning our backs to sin and rebellion to serve the Lord in righteousness for the remainder of our days.

    O how we praise God the eternal One Whom we love and serve.

  27. Costco:

    Why? Why is it that only one of the two offending parties has to be publicly known? How is it fair that one goes “free to possibly continue sinning?”

    (I’m not being argumentative, nor trying to be aggressive. It is a tragic situation all around…people hurt, families devastated….but to have one secretly among the flock possibly seeking another one to bring down…it just doesn’t seem right nor fair).

  28. Stephen,
    In some states this type of affair is not only immoral, but illegal as it may constitute the abuse of authority and the use of manipulation in counseling situations.
    I do not know the particulars here, only stating the possibility.
    The office of the pastor must be protected from all disqualification and the church made aware of it.
    The sin of the other can and should be dealt with privately.

  29. Michael (and everyone)

    Please don’t misunderstand me…I am fully aware of the importance of being moral and blameless when it comes to he offices of pastor or leadership in the Body of Christ….and I do agree with the necessity of protecting the office and NOT HIDING when there is disqualification.

    Yet, I still question the practice of keeping the anymonity of the other party (parties). I see the mercy in doing so, of course…and the grace given to the family by not doing so…but I can’t shake the belief that it takes two (or more) to tango, and everyone has an accountability.

    How is that not “hiding” part of the truth?

    I think we’ve all heard stories of “that person” in the congregation who has a “problem” of causing pastors to fall.

    (Sometimes I I think faster than I type and skip points just to finish the post, lol).

  30. stephen,

    The reason Costco might have in mind is that the relationship of pastor and a lay woman is not one of equals. There is a shepherd-sheep relationship. The pastor is in authority over the lay woman. It could be expressed as abuse of power. I would not over generalize, not knowing the facts, but my default reading is that the pastor uses his position to victimize the woman. There could be exceptions.

  31. Stephen wants to know why the woman is not “publicly shamed”… First of all the Pastor is the one in a position of authority. Supposed called out and set apart by the Lord for the responsibility of leading. He is held to a stricter judgment. Secondly he is a man, and the woman is the weaker vessel. The man is supposed to be the protector of the woman and as a man, pastor and brother in the Lord he should not be leading or going along with the woman in sin. The teaching I sat under at CC always taught that ultimately the man bore the heavier burden of fault because he is the leader, and the leader of his home.

  32. In the case of the pastor using his position to victimize the woman (abuse of position and authority), I more than heartily agree.

    I admit that I did not consider that aspect of the range of possibilities. For some reason, that scenario didn’t occur to me when I was considering the topic. Call me naive, I guess.

    However:

    If he was seduced or she was “one of those” who targeted him for a fall…Or, if they were equally “at fault” or “willing,”….why would it be oappropriate to continue to protect the other person/people?

  33. Do we know it was a woman in the church? Perhaps it was a friend of a 3rd cousin. If so then does that remove the shepherd / sheep disclaimer?

    Was the announcement published anywhere? I didn’t see it so I don’t know what was said. Anyone???

  34. stephen,

    Regarding your second question, the purpose of announcing the nature of this pastor’s resignation was in the discernment of the elders the right thing to do possibly to quell gossip or properly explain his resignation to the people who paid his salary. I don’t really know.

    But, you don’t just publish people’s sins for the heck of it. So when it comes to the woman, you first need to ask, what public interest is there in identifying the woman? What good for her and/or the congregation could come out of a public identification. What steps have been taken to address her side of the sin? Was she repentant? We just don’t know.

    So, our first impulse should not be to out people just for the sake of identifying the counterpart to the pastor’s infidelity.

  35. MLD, since you asked, having a rowdy elementary age kid in school is not grounds for being defrocked. Now if it were to go into Junior High, then…. 😉

  36. Out of curiosity could there be legal issues if the person a pastor committed adultery with was named and shamed. A pastor is a public person and there is a legitimate reason his adultery is made publicly know to his congregation. However if the person he committed adultery with is a private person who does not occupy any place of authority or influence within the church would they have any sort of legal claim to not be harassed or by church members “exposing” their sin and doing who knows what?

  37. I know there are cases where people have sued churches that tried to enact church discipline against them. Wouldn’t a church be setting itself up for that sort of thing by naming and shaming the private person a pastor committed adultery with?

  38. The announcement has not been published yet.
    J2, I do think there could be legal issues in the cases you mention.

  39. Lots of armchair quarterbacks here. It all looks pretty different when it’s your life.

    I can say from personal experience that the depth and complexity of a situation like this and the on going fallout is indescribable. It is unrecoverable. Yes, really. The damage is incalculable, and permanent. As Charles Swindoll aptly said, ‘ it only takes one pin to burst a balloon’. The damage is life changing, multi leveled and massive in many lives, as if a nuclear bomb went off. No one’s life will ever be the same. Forgiven, yes, Restored? Maybe, but not like it was before. Ever.

    Little children, guard your hearts…

  40. I am a member of that church. The statement came as a shock initially and I cried. I didn’t cry because I feel Bob somehow didn’t live up to my expectation or let me down in anyway because to be honest my overall view of humanity is pretty low. The fact that a pastor, husband, father, mentor can carry on a secret affair hardly cases me to bat an eye. I cried because the enemy successfully wooed and deceived another one of us. “Still, kill, and destroy” that’s the name of the game. Bob didn’t take the opportunities to take the exits God made available to him. For whatever reason he didn’t go to a brother in the Lord and talk about his temptations. Was it because he didn’t have anyone to talk to? Did he have an accountability partner?

    I ache because I know him and his family are aching. In time God will heal and renew but now we mourn.

  41. the one thing that has me puzzling as i read tonight is, what is/are the responsibilities of the women of a congregation?
    why couldn’t/shouldn’t one or two of the ladies in the church meet with one of their sex who seems to be getting a bit too close to the pastor? why aren’t we expected to be concerned with the conduct of our sisters? couldn’t the situation possibly have been defused, if suspected?

    now, there is the possibility that this “home wrecker” and ministry destroyer was someone outside of the church and unknown to the congregation… but…

    i once knew of a man who was developing a way too cozy relationship for a married man to engage in outside his family… the wife’s sister in Christ said, “come on we’re going to pay that lady a visit” – answering the knock on her door the “other woman” faced two stern, but friendly women who made it very clear that the jig was up and there’d be consequences, if things progressed any further… 🙂 do we ladies tend to keep our suspicions to ourselves (the concerned gossip thing) thinking we’re just being polite and “nonjudgemental?” if we do and things go south, do we bare any guilt? … just a ponder, not a conclusion…

  42. We all need to have Jesus as our accountability partner.

  43. John 20:29, when my late ex husband, pastor of a large CC, was involved with a woman at our former church, several women (who knew about the affair long before I or leadership did) tried speaking to the adulteress, to no avail.

    Honestly, it is the Holy Spirit that ‘convicts of sin”…. and when people deceived by lust are so deeply into the situation of their own making, they have deliberately chosen to reject the influence of the Holy Spirit. No human intervention made a difference in my ex husband’s situation. To this day, his mistress feels she has done no wrong. Proverbs has much to say about women like that.

  44. JD, Jesus will hold us accountable, but not as a partner. 🙂

  45. Well said, Jean. We need fellow brothers and sisters to partner with us so we can confess our sins to one another but even before that, we need our brothers and sisters to confess our temptations to before they develop into sin.
    A man isolated from accountability is a liability.

  46. Just my own opinion…

    Why should the other than Pastor adulterer be exposed and shamed?

    First of all they shamed themselves. Exposing does not shame unless shame occurred. Exposing is simply making the truth be known. (lying is not exposing).

    Secondly what can possibly be wrong with “exposing” the truth. Until you know who the other person is, you have no right to consider them as a “weak” woman. It could be a strong, or powerful, or highly church positioned woman (Sunday school teacher). In fact as far as that goes if the other person is not known, in today’s world, the other adulterous could also have been a man.

    Those informed of the pastor’s sin deserve to know the FULL truth, or NONE of it.

    Not exposing full truth is the breeding ground of lies and deception..and in fact encourages it.

    Again, just my opinion.

  47. Paul, I want to know who the woman (or man) is. I want the full story. I found this thread while searching online for the details about this. I hope they do disclose to us who it is. Maybe the local media will fish it out. They surle got into Saeed and Naghmeh Abedini’s business in a quick hurry. I’d prefer to hear it from the church. Perhaps in the Lords mercy He will keep the details hidden. If that’s the case then I just have to accept it.

  48. Tam,

    I agree with you. I will go one step further and say if the other person is weak, telling who she/he is can let other church members know who to help if needed.

  49. It seems to me like needing to know who the woman is, is much like rubbernecking while passing a horrible car accident.

  50. Paul,
    The leadership has chosen to deal graciously with her. In his statement Tucker urged people the leave BOTH families alone for the time being. I got the impression that he knew some people in the congregation already know who it is. I guess I’m just not privy to the information.

  51. Good Lord…let me be clear.
    This was a woman, not a man.

  52. Covered,

    Maybe you’re right. I guess my feelings are coming from a place of hurt and a bit of anger.

  53. Some very well-stated comments here. Paige is right. It is a nuclear bomb that flattens a wide swath of humanity. If I may, Paige, I offer belated, but deep condolences to you and others who have been victims of this particularly devastating sin. It has struck many in my family even post confession of Christ with many influenced by the lax advice given to them in their respective CC’s. Some have never recovered. Pre-Christ, some in my family were so wounded through the heart with this sin that there were suicides. I was present when one of my family was being carried out in a body bag by the coroner. I was only 12. This is a very serious, very hurtful thing to do to another human being. The perpetrators need to come face to face with what they have done. True repentance would mean true sorrow and public failure would demand a public apology. It appears that Caldwell may have failed at that, too. I will say again, “seek not many of you to be teachers for you will incur the stricter judgement”.

  54. Covered,

    Your # 49 can be true, but looking at a horrible car accident when you see a car you recognize too see if it involves someone you know that you can help is not rubbernecking.

  55. JM,

    In the statement Tucker said Bob will publicly address this but him and his family needed some time.

  56. Do we, the blog readers of the world, have a ‘right’ to know more than what we already do?

    Tan Mal wants to know everything and suggests the media (I would assume this includes investigative bloggers) – root it out. But if the Boise board says we have handled it and wish to respect the privacys of the parties and families – do we respect that?

  57. Paul Lytton, it’s basically impossible for a woman to be “powerful” in a Calvary Chapel or hold any sort of authority. Even teaching Sunday School–particularly in a church that has it during the sermon so those obnoxious little kids won’t brother the adults–does not inherently imply the person has any particular standing within the church.

  58. I understand Paul. My point is that sometimes needing to know just how bloody and messy things are, usually doesn’t help. For the record, I have been known to rubberneck myself. I just don’t see how knowing who the woman is at this point helps anyone. I think that I would want to know just how much the leadership knows and when did they learned of Bob’s failings. The woman will be found out in due time. For some reason, it really bothers me how this thing was handled from the beginning. I hope that we don’t learn that other’s knew and for some reason, decided to protect Bob or the congregation “for the greater good…”

  59. “But if the Boise board says we have handled it and wish to respect the privacys of the parties and families – do we respect that?”

    Based on the way they have handled this…yes.

  60. Martin,
    I guess we should respect that.

  61. I am totally unaware of the Boise board, but familiar with other CC boards that consider “handling” the situation as supporting their boss, the Pastor. I apologize.

  62. May I add, that telling the church body the entire truth, including the name of the adulteress, is a way of protecting everyone, particularly the offended spouses. One would hope that a church body would stand with the victims and not make excuses for the pastor.

    My former church chose to not tell the congregation what happened for a full two years after my ex was fired. The people loved their pastor, and found it unfathomable to believe he was capable of doing something so wrong. The great majority decided on their own that it was my fault.

    Equipping a church congregation with the whole story relieves them from speculation. It is devastating to learn that someone you’ve loved trusted to teach you the Scriptures and represent the Holy Spirit has violated a sacred covenant and lied about it for a long time.
    It is very much a betrayal to the church as well.

    Thank you JM. It’s been 17 years. The ordeal broke my life and shattered my offsprings’ faith.

  63. At the risk of turning this into a CC, Pastor bashing thread (which I don’t want to do) but, I think that Paige’s experience is probably more typical of how this horrendous sin is handled. In fact, how many times have we seen the pastor be protected by those at the helm of the mother ship in Costa Mesa in the past? I’m not suggesting that only CC handles this issue with leniency because we know that isn’t the case. The whole situation stinks. Again, I am sorry Paige for how you were abused and how your kids had to experience such a terrible atrocity.

  64. Paige, I am in agreement with you as to how to handle this — and the other woman. Unfortunately, I have also seen the victim blamed for the indiscretions of the husband and the incredible pain it causes. She is put on trial by those that committed idolatry of the pastor, though she had no control over any of it. It is like being pummeled and betrayed all over again. I have also seen faith lost by those affected–especially children. They simply don’t believe that God could exist and allow such a thing. That is another fruit of this sin. Again, this is a very serious offense and needs to be cared for to stop the church at large from “bleeding out”. It is a credit to the Lord’s mercies and perseverance in your own faith that you can handle the issues so well at this point, Paige. I pray that God will continue to restore all that has been taken away, continue to send healing to your children and continue to send minister health to your body because of the awful toll it surely took. God bless you for not giving up.

    Tam Nal – Thank you for sharing that information about Bob.

  65. Yes Michael, 2 families trashed.

    Of all the adultery cases in CC, this is the only one that has ever really surprised me. Most of the others reeked with avarice. Bob came across so spiritual. One of the best pastor’s conference I ever attended was a one day event led by Bob. But I’m reminded that spiritual and godly are not always the same thing. Spirituality is mainly about desire, and the longing is either holy or carnal. Sometimes those lines cross.

    Rattle and Hum

  66. Love covers a multitude of sins.

    No one here needs to know the details of any of this.

  67. @39 thanks Paige……………

  68. My heart is heavy hearing all this, but to be honest it’s not against Bob or the mistress. I’ve known Bob and his family for many years and I love them all, this is sad news and it’s sad for all the obvious reasons. But let me be clear, I’m not angry at all. This is what Jesus died for and anyone who enjoys that grace is under the same grace that Bob is receiving now if he is indeed in a repentant place.

    Respectfully, it seems that handling “it” as the Elders have done in private, something that is blaringly public, kind of seems like we’re keeping in place the original problem… which is a lack of available accountability. In our public court system, if anyone is arrested for anything from jaywalking to murder it is reported in the papers and all the details are made available to the public, that’s how we know justice is meted out. That’s how we keep all parties including our judges and court systems accountable.

    Isn’t hiding the details the same as hiding the sin, which is also the same as hiding how it was “handled”? I’m honestly confused about this and how it is being handled. Keeping it private is my first instinct as well, but it also seems like that could be part of the problem… this really isn’t a private matter. We knew all about Clinton’s affair because of his position in office, Bob has a similar position in the public eye and the details matter in a way that affects many people’s lives and walk with the Lord and it sets an example for leadership and raises the issue of better checks and balances being in place and perhaps a little more decentralization of power. I’m not asking or ranting for details or for anyone to be hung, I’m just asking what I feel are some obvious questions. And to me at least, there is no obvious answer in keeping things private, that needs to be questioned for systematic, governing reasons. For the reason of keeping and rebuilding trust with those who go to all CC’s and especially CCBoise. As well for the purpose of practical accountability among all pastors. I don’t feel any need to deal out shame, the Holy Spirit will work on hearts in the way He chooses, I’m not asking for shame but for an appropriate level of public accountability that matches the level of Bob’s own public’ness (new word). For the purpose of building and keeping trust within the flock and for the safety of current and future leaders. And it is a sad byproduct of the sin that it will, and probably should, publicly affect the life of the mistress. I’m not sure why we would make it a safe place to be on the “other side” of an affair where only one party is held accountable when it affects such a large populace. Think of it as accountability that is equal to and matches the sin.

    Those are my thoughts, may the Lord grant us all wisdom executed in love wrapped in mercy so that the cup we use for others, when it comes back, is the kind of cup we would want for ourselves. Peace and love guys.

  69. DrawingInTheSand,

    That’s very thought provoking…you and Paige have given me much to think about.

  70. The only way it might make sense to out the other party is if she has a national platform from which she preaches, as Bob had, a pastoral/teaching ministry. Then you might, maybe, possibly consider it.
    Maybe. But the fact that the shepherd abused the sheep under his care is priority one. This woman most likely is a victim, and even if she was the pursuer, BC is still the one to blame.

    She needs grace and truth.
    Discipline from that local body, and care for her from the same.

    The woman and her family were used. That is enough damage without having to be “accountable” to the social media gossip machine. Apparently that behavior goes no further than Bob and unnamed woman. Bob has stepped down and admitted it. Is there anything more in scripture that is demanded of a pastor than this? Is there more demanded of a lay person?

    Unlike POTUS Clinton, no one voted for Bob Caldwell. No one responding here has any skin in the game at CC Boise, most likely. Many here consider CC a paragon of cruddy theology and worse doctrine, so I don’t see where people get off complaining they don’t know enough about things in a church they don’t care to grace with their presence thus ain’t their business any ol’ way.

    To those he taught, led to Christ, those who served with him in ministry at CCA and CC Boise – to God and to them he is accountable. I don’t know if the Caldwell’ s have grandkids, but this potentially harms four generations of believers directly, an entire church, and an entire community. Lets leave it at that.

  71. I’m sorry but truth should be known. He hid it. It was a very long affair and he only told his wife because someone told him they would make it public if he didn’t. Many of us are livid. This is a tragedy and I beg you to separate God from the screwed up nature of man. No one is above the snares of the enemy. Not even this man whom so many looked up to. And I need to add, that no sin is too great for grace. Keep your eyes on Jesus. Men will always fail you. Jesus won’t.

  72. We do know who the mistress is and there’s no point in blasting her. We do know many details but the ultimate goal of protecting those who will be shaken in their faith far outweighs the desire to satisfy the millions of questions.
    I’m angry and sad.
    But his sin doesn’t change the incredible spiritual growth he helped me gain while under his mentorship. I agree in transparency. But for Tucker and elders it’s a multi faceted situation. They can’t possibly answer all the questions and then the inevitable millions of follow up questions. It’s a pretty difficult situation to handle especially as a young, new pastor who was brought up by this man and discipled by him.
    Consider King David.
    Psalms 51 is Bobs favorite. I can see a King David in him. Absolutely sinful but with a heart after Gods own heart.

  73. I just can’t but hel but wonder, now, just how forthcoming BC will be when he addresses the topic….if he does, that is.

  74. There seems the need for CC Boise to strike a balance here. On one hand, there is a desire to protect both families that are undoubtedly already going through much strife, to have additional unnecessary strife being added upon them. On the other hand, there is a need to be open about enough detail and information so that it does not give the impression of shady cover-ups that then help lead to wrongful beliefs and attitudes occurring and innocent parties being suspected of wrongdoing.

  75. What could be a cover up? He has admitted to the adultery and he is out as the pastor of the church. What is to cover up at this point?

    No matter what you do or say, some folks will still be suspicious and have ” wrongful beliefs and attitudes occurring and innocent parties being suspected of wrongdoing.”

    But that is their sin – not Caldwell’s or the church leadership.

  76. MLD,

    Maybe CC Boise has already said enough. I don’t know what all they disclosed beyond what has been reported here, that Caldwell confessed to adultery a couple weeks ago. Did they address if anyone on the board or church leadership knew about this before? Did they address if it played a part or was even truly the sole reason for his previous resignation? Did they address anything in regards to supporting his missions work that he was supposedly pursuing now that this is known? Did they address if the church has accountability measures in place where they can remove the senior pastor if such a thing occurs? (Caldwell had previously resigned, he wasn’t removed.) Did they address how long the affair was going on and if there was only one affair? Did they emphasize that only Caldwell himself should be held accountable for what he did, that no measure of guilt or blame should be placed on his wife? Did they address any possible church discipline for Caldwell? Did they address how they are trying to support Caldwell and his family, most especially his wife and children? Did they address if Caldwell is still receiving financial support from the church?

    I think these are all fair and prudent things to address in order to help quell wrongful attitudes and beliefs because the congregation is just left guessing about them. Maybe CC Boise has already addressed them. But if they haven’t, they can lead to unhealthy suspicion, especially with the history of trying to hide things in Calvary Chapel.

  77. Kevin, Caldwell realized his sin and resigned. Boom!! Done. Add to your list “did he wear a condom or was he irresponsible?”

    He probably complicated his sin by lying, but at that point he is already gone. Here is the issue – everyone complains you can’t get rid of these guys once the truth comes out. What is going to be the motivation for the next guy to do the right thing if he will be trashed just like the guy who won’t?

    How much Caldwell blood do we want?

  78. ” What is going to be the motivation for the next guy to do the right thing if he will be trashed just like the guy who won’t?”

    MLD, After dealing with this issue for most of my life, I have some definite thoughts on this. If the person is a pastor and has that sort of attitude–he should have never been a pastor in the first place. There are so many Biblical disclaimers against someone becoming a pastor in the first place (“stricter judgment” in James) that he has no excuse no matter what. The other way to look at this is what the Bible also says (“that it may cause others to fear”). God sees nothing wrong with causing that fear so neither do I.

  79. JM, but if the culprit is gone – what else do you care?

    I take it that you are from the “get my pound of flesh” camp of Christianity? Not me. I come from the more forgivenitarian wing.. 😉

    If you have been dealing with this issue most of your life, may I suggest that you just let it go? Stop going to churches that seem prone to this kind of abuse.

    I agree in these churches that the pastors are not vetted very well of if at all. In the LCMS from the time they are in college they are being evaluated and vetted to their suitability to be a pastor – they even have a 1 year internship while in seminary (3rd year they are shipped off to work with a pastor who evaluates them) in the end 4th year they are evaluated by the final committee and then still face call day to see if a congregation has deemed them to be pastor material. So, stop going to the churches where perhaps someone just started their own branch – were not called by a congregation but in fact they called a congregation to themselves.

    But hey, if it’s a Lutheran church, we haze them from the beginning and make them where a dress 🙂

  80. “If the percentages hold true, 96,300–112,350 congregations in the United States are pastored by clergy with diagnosable Narcissistic Personality Disorder.”
    –https://alivingtext.com/clergy-and-narcissistic-personality-disorder-ad72f54edee9#.al8dpfwqz

  81. In light of the CCA/CCCM issues, I’m wondering if the CCA board was aware of any of this prior to yesterday. If not, nothing could be done about it. If so . . .?

  82. ” – were not called by a congregation but in fact they called a congregation to themselves.”

    MLD, I don’t see this as a Lutheran distinctive. Could this be what the Bible talks about in Acts 20:30 and drawing disciples after themselves? I like the idea of a congregation calling a pastor for this exact reason.

  83. I think some people in this discussion would demand to know who the dude was in the account of the woman caught in the act of adultery. (John 8)

  84. Um, MLD, I’m not sure why you made so many assumptions towards me, but I hope to care for them below. I am actually impressed with what you said about the Lutheran way of doing things. I pray their policies are working and producing good fruit. It speaks well of them. I actually attended a Lutheran church for awhile and had a good experience.

    As to the churches I frequented where this sin was a chronic problem—they were all CC’s (4 of them)–even many years ago. I left shortly after the Hocking Debacle because it was clear even then (1992) the problem was systemic and it was part of the culture. The pastor was placed above the Word of God. After coming out of the influence of a cult, I knew when you placed a man above Scriptural accountability things were going in a very dangerous direction. It was also clear that the genesis of the cultural immorality problem was Chuck Smith’s own sin. Only recently have more details come forth about that. As to “let it go”. Im not sure why you say that to someone you do not even know. It is hurtful. You have no idea the things I have forgiven. I had a difficult background and forgave the one who tried to kill me when I would not give up my new found faith in Christ. (They were influenced by the cult that part of my family was into.) Eventually, as was my prayer, God restored that relationship and this person came to Christ. I was with them shortly before their death and we loved each other as brethren in Christ. Early on, I was homeless because of that situation and went to CC for help. You do not want to know what happened there.

    Years later, I helped in the restoration of a family who were hit by this sin. Because of my family background, this was all too familiar. But with Christ, I believed there was hope. The CC’ites and others within the family of the husband accused her of being responsible and almost broke her. Her health was so affected that she almost died. It took years for her to feel safe again. Because God saves to the uttermost, I actually facilitated the Gospel being preached to the “other woman” as well. Since the man was a Christian and knew better, the only thing to do was to make sure the wrong Gospel, which had been exemplified by the man, was corrected. The other woman completely repented, apologized to the wife and accepted Christ. The wife then forgave her. To the credit of the other woman, she also went away and never bothered them again. To his credit, the man held on and took whatever the wife dished out for many years in hopes of restoring his relationship with both her and his God. It actually did take years, but she eventually forgave him and he has never done anything even close to that again. His love for her restored her trust and her faith–even in God. Her love for him came back in the face of what he was willing to do to restore the relationship. It healed him, gave him hope and restored his faith. That was the only time I ever saw that happen and it was because the man finally learned the blessing of sacrificial love towards his wife. Though he now has this sin in his “resume”, he is the first to speak out about the horrors of infidelity and to steer others away.

    My concern then as it is now is that God will be glorified and respected and a clear Gospel will be shown. As Scripture would prescribe, I always put responsibility where it is supposed to be and always will. A truly sorrowful individual who has committed any type of sin will rightfully mourn, call it what it is and seek to do anything they possibly can towards restoring what they have “broken”. A pastor should take responsibility for what they have done, deal openly with it and humbly accept whatever comes because no one held a gun to their head. They opened that door. The joy of being restored to fellowship with God should be their main concern–not covering up their sin–and certainly not lying. If they were truly sorry, they would also seek to protect their family at all costs because of what they have done–even if she throws him out for awhile. It is the right thing to do. There are many of us waiting to forgive when the right thing happens. I would put myself at the top of that list. Whether that happens or not is completely up to the pastor and if he is man enough to do the right thing. God will pour out His blessings to the truly contrite. I would like to see that.

  85. Darn, I had a post and it’s list.

    Anyway, I’ll try again.

    While my initial question was gearedfor discussion and out of curiosity, it was never a call for the woman in questions name. Personally, there is absolutely no reason for me to “need” to know.

    It has, however, been keeping me considering it for the past 12 hours or so…Truth be told, even while I sleep.

    My conclusion thus far:. Absolutely nothing good can come from revealing her identity publicly. In this day and age of Facebook, text messages, sbnapchats, and tweets, the likely devestation for her would be completely unloving, unmerciful, and ungracious.

    The potential for complete and utter devestation is immense…Especially if it came from within/in the Body of Christ.

    We can only imagine…

    I do hope this situation is being handled appropriately, though.

  86. JM – “A pastor should take responsibility for what they have done, deal openly with it and humbly accept whatever comes because no one held a gun to their head.”

    Didn’t he? He lost his career, his reputation and who knows what else. He is no longer the pastor of that church — and he left voluntarily for all we know.

    Look at the Bob Grenier situation – if he had left years ago, like Caldwell left, there would be no issues in Visalia like there are now. Folks don’t seem to realize, without judging motive, that Caldwell took the high road in this situation.

  87. Privacy and prayer for the families involved… there is more than enough pain to go around. As to knowing names and details… there is a big difference between accountability and voyeurism. The main issue of accountability, in my mind, rests with the board of the church for their actions or, conversely, their lack of action. For those of us who are observers, we should have the humility to understand that we only know a very little bit of the dynamic in the situation and comment (or not comment) accordingly.

  88. Those who believe that everyone’s name must be revealed, perhaps you could provide us with a list of your ten most grievous sins.

  89. Pastoral adultery is a massive problem throughout the Body of Christ and crosses denominational lines. That’s easy to look up. The anonymous interdenominational pastoral surveys that have been done are shocking.

    Adultery is also a massive problem throughout society as a whole, and many of the underlying causes of adultery are risks prevalent in pastoral ministry with other potential background issues that make adultery more likely in the general population found in pastors of certain backgrounds, with some denominations being populated with more of these pastors than others. (i.e. Living a promiscuous lifestyle for years before being born again and then entering ministry)

    As one of the few Calvarys with a written accountability plan that explains the process everyone from the Senior Pastor on down can be removed, let me say that such plans are primarily for the multitude of abuse of power issues that can arise, and not for a sin like adultery. For pastors who act like dictators in oversight of the church’s money, ministries, volunteers and congregants. Put another way, having a written accountability procedure is not going to keep a pastor from adultery. In any denomination.

    It does have value if the pastor refuses to step down, which has been a problem in some denominations. But in CC, you sometimes see adulterous pastors go start another non Calvary church down the street, you sometimes see them quickly hired on staff by a CC buddy at another church, but you do not see CC pastors in known adultery remaining at their church. If someone has an example, feel free to name it before disputing that fact.

    By known though, I mean publicly, not just among a couple people in leadership who aid in the cover-up. My position on leaders who cover-up such sins of pastoral leaders is well known around here. And for the record once more (and for new readers) I have been clear that pastoral adultery should result in immediate and permanent removal from the pastoral office.

  90. I would add that if one really wishes the restoration of families with adulterous spouses, first and foremost, then as much privacy as possible is necessary – all the more if children are involved.

    The internet is forever. An educational tool for future generations who one day can look up grandma and find out that she actually fornicated with a pastor 30 years ago.

    It may take two to tango, but like Adam and Eve, this falls on the man, the pastor with the authority, and his role as a leader. Any publicity needs to deal with that focus.

    Personally, at least in my eight years, I have never seen the push to reveal the woman on this blog as we are reading now. Maybe it is because Caldwell had more respect than the average pastor? If so, imagine his true fans and the living hell they may bring upon this “harpy” and “home wrecker” (just to select two of the more tame names I have seen when sides are chosen and the man is defended in adulterous situations)

    No. Leave her (and her possible family) be.

  91. Steve Wright,

    Speaking of Adam and Eve, the story is well documented and not covered up or hidden and the names of the guilty (both the man and woman) are there for us to read about.

    However, I tend to agree with you unless it was an exceptionally noteworthy and well known woman, she doesn’t need to be exposed. On the other hand, I can definitely think of one such women in particular who was very vocal on the blogosphere nationally about her own marital problems who had Caldwell as her pastor for years. Now I have no reason to believe this was her but my point is that if the woman we are talking about was someone “like her” that had the notoriety and publicity that she did to not reveal her name I believe would probably be another travesty of justice on a mega scale along with a huge double standard. Just something to ponder on.

  92. In the church, it must be remembered always…that we are sheep. As it says, not many mighty, not many wise. I think this is largely why we struggle to handle issues without firstly a fixation on genitals, or a distant second of alcohol use. When it comes to corporate culture, fiduciary duty, fraud, etc. we struggle in the church.

    If Bob Caldwell was a plane crash the whole situation would be dissembled by the NTSB. This is because the children of this World understand the importance of facts assembled into a timeline. In order to learn of the pilots sex life? Hardly unless it pertained to the incident.

    Here are a few random thoughts.

    -Is it important to identify the counter party? No it’s not the point at all, and it would be honorable to protect the person’s future. But that also means those with oversight of the Church understand the difference from a victim seduced by a pastor, from an individual hunting for christian men. My community tolerated a known troller for decades. My Mama told me she murdered her husband in order to begin trolling. She then destroyed one church that tolerated her.

    -Handling the matter privately. Hell no! In making as much information public as possible, people may recall events where additional issues took place. People likely saw things over the years. It is pertinent information when attempting to reconstruct a timeline of events. Chances are, smoke and flame where first seen, several years after individuals noticed the fire alarm began to go off continually.

    -Protection of innocent parties. When an incident occurs, sheep naturally stampede. This may very likely include trampling, isolating, or shunning of spouses. It makes sense. If spouses faces can just be erased from our thoughts, we feel better about ourselves, and everything. Problem? What problem?

    This is a definite area where the genital fixation is an impediment. What if an incident wasn’t sex, but instead the pastor assaulted his wife, or made her life a hell? Can a church identify a popular pastor needs to be rejected? Or will the wife be shunned?

    -What did the Board know, and when. This does not mean the Board was covering up to be at fault. But there should be questions of the Board’s ability to read and detect emerging problems. Is the Board a bunch of children that can be fooled? If so, why?

  93. MLD, I will say one more thing and then, because of constraints at my end, I will have to leave it at that. I may not be where I can post for awhile. I hope you are right and Bob has taken the high road. I will believe it when Caldwell confesses this sin openly to his former church, and asks them for their forgiveness for marring the witness of Christ and covering this up for so long. The fact that so many in that church are only finding out about it now is not a good sign and is suffering that he brought upon himself because of the delay. Worse, it extended the time frame for the pain and delayed the healing process for his family and his church. I agree with others in that the family should be protected at all costs. I hope Caldwell sees that they are protected and I hope he makes it right with his church as soon as he can. Lastly, I hope he has the courage to speak out to other CC pastors and warn them about the devastation this sin causes…for years and years and years.

    I believe this and similar incidents being exposed are actually a result of many of our prayers. If people were praying for CC, and wanted God to come and do a work there again–then the house had to be cleaned first. This may be only the beginning of the “house cleaning” and it is long overdue.

  94. So, a local megachurch (Calvary Chapel Boise) just had their celebrity pastor Bob Caldwell confess to adultery which, is why he recently quit apparently. I don’t know the guy, never went there, never met him.

    Don’t be shocked. The system is broken.

    The absolute awfulness of how churches elevate men to near godhood is one of hundreds of reasons why we opted out of church. When you place a person in the spotlight and make them a “celebrity Christian” this is the shit that happens and will always happen.
    What’d they expect? It happens all over the place, all the time. Unfortunately, it’s not even 1% shocking. If it’s not adultery, it’s embezzlement. If it’s not that it’s spiritual abuse. If it’s not that, it’s child abuse.

    People all over the America have set up a faith-based social club system that is literally nowhere to be found in the Bible.

    One man in charge of everyone? Nowhere. Government regulated faith communities? Nowhere. Pre-fabricated experiences with rock concerts for Jesus? Nowhere.
    So, stop being shocked.

    When people are told they “have to” participate in a system like this instead of following what’s prescribed in the Bible (i.e. real life community) and you put one guy in charge of the whole show, expect it.

    This guy, who stood in front of thousands of people telling them how to live and what to think- this guy was PUTTING HIS PENIS INTO OTHER MEN’S WIVES IN THE NAME OF JESUS.

    But, somehow, mark my words, he’ll be considered a victim. He was really a predator (using his position to lure women in) but he’ll be painted as a victim. This is what churches do and it’s damnable.

    It’s disgusting.

    Unplug from the Matrix. The RIDICULOUS focus on buildings, budgets, and bigshots is sucking the life out of you.

    You don’t need someone telling you what to think and how to live. You need to dig into the Bible for yourself and figure it out. You also need to maintain and cultivate relationships in real life (not just on Wednesdays and Sundays) with people who will encourage you, admonish you, and spur you on to be better (see Hebrews 10:24-25).

    **Real life community.** Not the bullshit you see at most churches.

    No one man or person can do that for you. A talking head every Sunday can’t do that for you. You need God AND his people. You need real relationships with real people that happen in real life.

    Not church.

    Jesus said: “Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me.”

    Paul told the early Christians in Corinth: “Brothers and sisters, I could not address you as people who live by the Spirit but as people who are still worldly—mere infants in Christ. I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for it. Indeed, you are still not ready. You are still worldly. For since there is jealousy and quarreling among you, are you not worldly? Are you not acting like mere humans? For when one says, “I follow Paul,” and another, “I follow Apollos,” are you not mere human beings?”

    Stop following men.

    Men will fail you.

    Stop relying on “a really good sermon” to make you somehow magically make you a better person. It won’t. Only God can do that. Stop drinking milk (i.e. breast milk is simply pre-digested food, a sermon- think about it) and dig in for yourself.

    No man can save you.

    No man can change the state your soul is in.

    Only God can do that.

  95. Blentil,
    I hate it when posts like yours makes me defend the CC system. It makes my toes curl.
    “When people are told they “have to” participate in a system like this instead of following what’s prescribed in the Bible (i.e. real life community) and you put one guy in charge of the whole show, expect it.”

    Who is telling who (or is it whom?) that they “have to” participate in a system like this…”? I don’t see anyone holding a gun to anyone’s head. My contention is that the pewsters are just as guilty as the pastors in this train-wreck – co dependent – the pewsters have a great need to be controlled and the pastor’s accommodate them.

    Then you say; “No man can save you. No man can change the state your soul is in. Only God can do that.” Where do you find the opposite of this being taught?

  96. Hey, I don’t see the pastor’s actions / behavior as abusive as much as I see control issues elsewhere. Image the abuse caused when a church closes it’s doors on Christmas Sunday.

    The real Replacement Theology of substitution – changing the Lord’s Day into Family Day. Yikes!!!

    It’s so funny when you see the Christmas protests of “Put Christ back into Christmas” – while at the same time removing the Mass from Christmas.

  97. Some people expect too much out of their local congregation and its pastor.

    There was a gentleman who used to have a fantastic podcast on Ancient Faith Radio. He was a zealous convert from some form of evangelicalism and he was very good at explaining the differences between Them and Us. Then he disappeared for a few years, no explanation given except vague hints in the Orthosphere that he was upset about something and left the Church. Good grief, this man was my hero! What terrible thing had he discovered?

    Recently, he posted an explanatory podcast. He, like many converts came to Orthodoxy by means of reading books that were much to hard for him and hanging out on Orthodox discussion forums. When he joined his local parish he expected the leadership to be an amalgam of Basil/ Chrysostom/ Gregory and the people to be living like monastics who kept every single little rule to the nth degree. What he found instead were regular people who were working out their salvations in fear and trembling. His priest wasn’t St. Seraphim of Sarov whose every utterance was beamed to him straight from the Holy Spirit. His Bishop… well, nevermind. His expectations, gleaned from bad sources, didn’t live up to reality.

    So he quit, in disgust. But by and by he realized his error. Authentic Orthodoxy is found among the people of an Orthodox parish, not on some discussion forum. He realized that even though he knew the Canons better than anyone in his parish, even if he knew the Bible better than his priest, even if he kept the fasts to the strictest degree, he had become a clanging cymbal and had no love. But he repented and came back, to that same parish. He realized that people are saved together as a community and that these were the people given to him by God to learn to love and to work with.

    I think many people give up on their churches too quickly. They leave one imperfect place and join another, only to discover it’s full of sinners, too. After five or six hops, they decide the church as an “institution” is hopeless and they announce they “love God but are not religious.”

  98. #97 is gold!

  99. what i see missing from Blentil’s post – he makes many good observations – is that we need teachers, we need to be taught and kept on track by someone who has the bona fides to do it… can a group of Believers function outside a structured church? probably so, but they’ll go off on some very goofy rabbit trails without a shepherd … a good one
    how sad that we have so many calling themselves shepherds because somebody told them they’d make a good one and, for reasons other than a love of God’s Truth and teaching it, they signed on…
    shepherds, what pastures are you leading the sheep into? God’s sheep don’t thrive on grass that has been GMO’d
    still thinking on the authenticity thread, i guess 🙂

  100. @97

    The transition from non-reform to reform has been underway for years. I have not really followed or appreciated the transition to Orthodox, such as you mentioned. I’m beginning to feel that far more people are looking to Orthodox theology then I realized.

    Are you seeing strong growth in Orthodox congregations, or is a misunderstanding on my part?

  101. Hi Nathan, I don’t think there’s a huge migration to Eastern Orthodoxy here in America. There was a period of time, maybe 15-20 years ago, when it was “cool” to investigate Orthodoxy and we did see a lot of new faces, including my own, many of who are still with us. I personally know 12 people from my old CC who have converted to Orthodoxy, which is a pretty good number.* Some parishes are thriving and some are not. Our parish has quadrupled in the past ten years but that means going from 15 souls to 60, which is about all who will fit. The Greeks seem to be losing their people the fastest whereas the stricter jurisdictions seem to be growing. Lot’s of people say they are “looking into Orthodoxy” but it’s jumping in the deep end of the pool for sure.

    Parishes that over emphasize their ethnic roots (Greek dancing classes, for example) are dwindling whereas parishes that emphasize the Gospel and the Sacraments are growing, from what I see. There are always exceptions, of course. This is the type of thing we talk about on Orthodox discussion forums. 🙂

    *This is entirely the fault of our old CC pastor’s diligence in teaching the Scriptures. He did such a good job that we realized we were missing something pretty big.

  102. Blentil,

    I understand your frustration. If you will recall the Scriptures, they paint a picture of a corrupted Church. Perhaps you are unfamiliar with such predictions.

    With that said, I would gladly defend the CC’s. And even it’s leaders.

    The Church, all of it, is built by God. It says in a certain place; ….”..blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in me…”…
    There is no true Church / Apostate Church. There is only one Church. As it says; …”One Lord, one faith, one baptism”…

    Blentil..do not be offended by what the Lord as created, and who he has called out of the World.

  103. With all the drama going on in the CC movement (CCA Split, Gospel for Asia downfall etc.) has anyone heard from Damien Kyle regarding these matters. He is one of the members who signed the CCA letter, he is still promoting GFA, and he doesn’t seem like he’s from the same mold as Jack Hibbs, David Rosales, and the rest of the Calvary Pharisees etc.

  104. Kyle is back on the CCA council and is just as bad or worse than the others.

  105. There are many ways that men (or women) can fall and many immoral canals into which they jump (and I really do believe they jump). If you have ever experienced it in your own family, you know how deep and wide the canals are and how devastating the results are to everyone involved. And honestly, once the sin is done, it doesn’t matter “how”. The damage is done. Knowing how doesn’t heal anyone.

    What’s sad to me is that the enemy prevailed one more time and managed to take down a leader, which is probably more fun than he can have before breakfast any day of the week. And he prevailed because of two words: Secrecy and shame.

    Until we are willing as Christians to come out from behind the things we hide and tell SOMEONE what the heck we are going through, we are often doomed to be dragged into the temptations and suffer the shame of the sins they lead us into. I’ve lived it, seen it, seen the results of it, and tried to pick myself up from the muck of it. And it is really, really mucky. Sexual sin in a marriage is unlike anything else I have ever experienced and anyone who goes there has a bigger problem than anyone knows. They don’t get there because one day they wake up and think they might sin. They get there because there is inherently something really spiritually wrong in their lives and they won’t tell anyone about it.

    And shame takes care of that. How sad this all is. It makes me cry.

  106. Martin Luther’s Disciple

    Nice name.

    Who is telling who (or is it whom?) that they “have to” participate in a system like this…”? I don’t see anyone holding a gun to anyone’s head. My contention is that the pewsters are just as guilty as the pastors in this train-wreck – co dependent – the pewsters have a great need to be controlled and the pastor’s accommodate them.

    – I agree w/that point. Maybe we’re speaking past each other.

    Then you say; “No man can save you. No man can change the state your soul is in. Only God can do that.” Where do you find the opposite of this being taught?

    – Ha, you’re funny. The way pastors are lauded and treated as deity in America is sickening. Where do I find it? In almost every American pulpit.

  107. Blentil,

    Clean up your mouth and be respectful of the people here or go somewhere else to rant.

  108. You’re under moderation for being rude and profane.

    Hitting too close to home?
    I’m the one who owns the place and posts the information in the first place, hero…

  109. Oh, you own the place? Rude and profane, how so specifically? And me speaking bluntly is profane, but people defending lying adulters isn’t? What church so you supposedly run, hero?

    You and Mark Driscoll, the internet tough guy “preachers” from Arizona.

  110. Blentil,

    I’m not from Arizona.
    I ran the first articles against Driscoll before anyone else did.

    We don’t drop F bombs here.
    We do treat the other members of the community with respect.

    You’re banned.

  111. We’ll miss him so.

  112. sadly, Blentil (is that code for something? or a real name?) can’t see the forest for the trees… well, that’s not quite the right analogy, but it’s the best i’ve got tonight…
    the Church has some wonderful teachers and some incredible pastors with the hearts of a servant to both God and man…
    humility is the ability to learn, not leap to conclusions, and by learning, discern… it is one of the main reasons, i think – dunno – that God hates pride…
    it is true that our problem right now appears to be the celebrity pastor that so many are drawn to to the point of overwhelming their own spiritual growth and their One on one with God – but does the Church have new problems or just different emphases at different seasons?

  113. If we confess our sin, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sin, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
    What human “accountability partner” can top that? 😕

  114. When I was in college a million years ago, I was part of a small church that had a plurality of leaders from two churches that merged. Great people, loved it and they loved me.
    I was part of a kinship group led by one of the the pastors and his wife, who had a HUGE impact on my life at the time. Over time, I became a part of their family in many ways that remain to this day.

    After they lost a child, she became clinically depressed and basically not able to function. His reaction to the grief was to find solace with someone else for a short time.
    Although the church did everything they could to help in every way possible, the marriage broke up. That whole episode has had lasting emotional consequences on everyone involved including them, their children, myself and others that were part of that church. The church, although there were other elders/pastors, never really recovered and eventually merged with another group which basically was the end of that.

    It’s been many many years since all that happened. I’m so glad for every one involved that the internet wasn’t around at that time!! The emotional trauma that happened to their kids, which has only recently been started healing, was deep enough. To have to see their father’s face spread all over the internet with complete strangers commenting on the most awful thing that’s ever happened to their family would have been devastating.
    I can’t even imagine how awful it would be to see someone you love talked about in forums like this by people who don’t even know them.

    I have to go on record to say that I think these kinds of articles are wrong and do no good for the persons involved, their families, or their church. They make me sad and personally, I think they are simply gossip which we are told not to do.

  115. I stand by my earlier post, air all of the truth. Names, timelines, as someone suggested. 2 posts here are from women who’s husbands were in a same position, committed the same sin and kept all the privacy being spoken about here, and somehow they were blamed!?

    Someone said, only if she’s well known… I don’t understand this. If I or any of you went along with a well known leader into this same sin. How does it make us less accountable that we’re not the one who is well known? They are equal in the sin, show me how and where, anywhere in the Bible there is only one adulterer in an affair?

    Same sin, same accountability… same sinful relationship, same consequences.

    Why you ask? For the very reason this blog’s sometimes horrible posts…(which are just a small example of the sheeps thoughts and feelings) to remove doubt, restore trust, provide a warning, show the holes in the current system, establish both hope and accountability, and yes… out any others who have shown themselves not worthy of their own calling who also may have contributed to this sin.

    This is uncomfortable for everyone, but it is not over, it’s like tumbling dominoes. The only way to stay ahead of the fallout is with truth, transparency, and follow up about what is to be done. I think the sheep have to be put first, and the leadership helped.

    Like cleaning a wound, all the junk needs to come out before we apply bandages or the inevitable infection will spread.

  116. Drawing in the Sand, you seem to want people to tell their sins in public but you don’t even want your own name to be made public. Evidently, you wish your privacy to be respected. We shall respect it. Let’s respect other sinners’ privacy as well.

  117. as to the embarrassing assertion that pastors “in almost every American pulpit” are lauded and treated as deities is just plain horse puckey…
    no, strike that… horse puckey isn’t all that offensive really and is wonderful fertilizer…
    respect isn’t quite the same as worship and the fact that SOME poor souls do look for pastors worth hearing for their celebrity status doesn’t equate with ALL of America; not by a long shot
    i have noticed that those much younger than i are quite comfortable overstating, and in vulgar terms, reality – in order to give themselves credibility with their peers? in order to offend those who are older themselves and think they know something? dunno, but it mirrors the music of the day and doesn’t really indicate independent thinking at all…

    just my not so humble opinion again and sayin cuz i can

  118. Xenia, thanks for summing up what I said in a very non-precise, generalistic, and judgmental way. For putting how you feel first and not considering others who are affected by leaders I see you are not fit for logical conversation, care for a flock, or governing of a church body. I welcome thoughtful commentary on what I said and the questions I raised earlier but at no point did I say I “want people to tell their sins in public”. Wow. Do you read?

  119. Xenia, thanks<<<<

    You're welcome.

  120. I see you are not fit for logical conversation, care for a flock, or governing of a church body
    ——————————————————————
    My comments are posts 89 and 90 above.

    I do my best on the logical conversation part, but definitely can check the boxes on the other two standards cited.

    Sometimes, people disagree on the best course of action in difficult times. One does not have to attach harsh motives to why…

  121. “I have to go on record to say that I think these kinds of articles are wrong and do no good for the persons involved, their families, or their church. They make me sad and personally, I think they are simply gossip which we are told not to do.”

    London,

    Because I respect you,I’ll answer this briefly.
    In the situation you described, I probably wouldn’t have done an article.
    Over the years we’ve covered a hell of a lot more than we’ve exposed.

    In cases where there is systemic sin and ongoing threat to the spiritual and emotional health of others, we write about it.

    Those who invest their time,hearts, and money, in these places, along with family who may be victims of abuse and fraud deserve to know the truth.

  122. an interesting question now rattling around in my head… which comes first the best interests of the individual Believer or the welfare of a segment of the Body of Christ?
    i hate to say it, but if my husband had left me for another woman, i think i’d be finger pointing and shouting it all over the place – then i’d calm down and try to work thru an aspect of our sin nature with the children … dunno
    from the kids i’ve known whose parent betrayed them along these lines and their custodial parent then, in the interests of their child(ren) having a respect for the parent, never said a thing derogatory about the wandering mate – it is, after all, by it’s very nature a public situation to one degree or another – it left those kids very confused… as does the sentence that i just typed here 🙂

  123. For me, if an institution must have secrecy to be respected, and transparency would cause it to collapse, then, by all means, let it fall, and the quicker the better.

  124. Here’s the thing. At the first pastor’s conference after Chuck died, in the summer of 2014, a major theme was transitions in ministry. The older making way for the newer. A core belief of CC and something Chuck himself talked about often (even if he practiced it imperfectly) There were some excellent messages and workshops and one of the best was Bob’s. He shared what he was doing personally to transition the leadership and the congregation to a next generation. I was encouraged and I hoped that much of the old guard among his peers were listening to him.

    So when he resigned from the Sr. role (but not the church), I thought (and I know I was not alone in this among CC circles), YES! Here is a pastor that gets it, that still has the maturity and interest to care about the health of the church, even when he no longer is the Sr. Pastor. That is willing to serve the church without having to be the guy on stage to do so. That recognizes stepping down from the Sr. Pastor role does not mean you sit at home the rest of your days with no desire to worship at a church if you aren’t the one giving the sermon anymore.

    I saw (and referenced on occasion to others) the church in Boise as a model for the future of the movement.

    So personally, I am glad to know the truth. That such was not the case at all.

    I really don’t like to go around touting what I think are mature, Godly examples of leadership when the truth is far from it….and I know from personal experience that when people praise who they remember as a “great man of God” it is not usually desirable or necessary to step in and correct them of their misconceptions with the truth.

  125. There is most definitely a fine line here, in this age of the internet.

    We should and must cover.

    “For love covers a multitude of sins.”

    On the other hand, when it comes to the pastor of a church,

    “Them that sin rebuke before all, that others may fear.” 1 Timothy 5:20

    As for me, I am still sorting all of this stuff out, in this internet age.

  126. One way to try to evaluate this would be to consider – would this discussion about Bob Caldwell be appropriate on the front page of the New York Times? Before the internet that would have been the only option.

    It probably should have remained in house.

  127. MLD, what are you babbling about. Before the internet there were these very popular things called LOCAL newspapers, usually a couple per town, one of which was subscribed to by just about every family in the town.

    And you can bet the Boise Herald and the Boise Gazette (or whatever) would see this as news worthy of publishing.

  128. The Boise Herald (or National Enquirer) is far different than a Christian website, Steve.

  129. I was addressing the latest MLD inanity, CostcoCal

  130. “Not many [of you] should be come teachers [self-constituted censors and reprovers of others], my brethren, for you know that we [teachers] will be judged by a higher standard and with greater severity [than other people].–Thus we assume the greater accountability and the more condemnation.” (James 3:1, Amp.)

    “Do not receive an accusation against an elder except on the basis of two or three witnesses. Those who continue in sin, rebuke in the presence of all, so that the rest also may be fearful of sinning. I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus and of his chosen angels, to maintain these principles without bias, doing nothing in a spirit of partiality [favor towards the offender].” (I Timothy 5:19-21, NASB)

    “Do not be in a hurry in the laying on of hands–giving the sanction of the church too hastily [in reinstating expelled offenders or in ordination in questionable cases]–nor share or participate in another man’s sins; keep yourself pure.” (I Timothy 4:22, Amp.)

    “But do not let immorality or any impurity or greed even be named among you, as is proper among saints;…And do not participate in the unfruitful deeds of darkness but instead even expose them;” (Ephesians 5:3 & 11, NASB)

    “But he who practices the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God.” (John 3:21, NASB)

  131. I have read the LA Times, the OC Register and the Daily Pilot for years and have never read stories about pastors like Caldwell.

    But it would be interesting to see if it did make the Boise pages.

  132. MLD,

    I worked with the LA Times and the OC Register on stories about CC pastors.

    So far the mail is running about 3-1 in favor of the adulterer over the blogger.

    Unfortunately,the blogger just had another story laid on his lap that is the most evil he’s ever heard…and doesn’t care about the consequences any more.
    Interestingly enough, I posted these Caldwell stories without commentary…

  133. MLD, a quick google search shows an archived article from 1992 from the LA Times, as news the day after it happened, of the Hocking resignation.

    I think if you got out the old microfiche and did some research of those old papers you would find that when scandal hits one of the biggest churches in the city, it makes the newspaper.

    But the point is that this IS the internet age, and people like Julie Anne and Alex have archived articles praising the guy and his Christian witness as one who does it right….and those are from critics of CC.

    I for one am glad I will not continue to perpetrate a lie about his stepping aside for the younger generation to prosper…even if I was doing so ignorantly.

  134. Michael – I wasn’t being critical of your post – but this is what should be – can ethics keep up with technology.
    The point is that adultery is sin but it is not illegal and doesn’t really hurt society – so what is the news value — if the church has dealt with it?

    As to Steve’s hero worship of Caldwell’s statement – what can I say? Why there are archived articles praising Caldwell I have no idea – I googled my pastor who has been a pastor 35 yrs, holds a doctorate, is published and I find nothing not related to our church or the synod. I am sure someone will go do a deeper search and find an article but it cannot be classified as ‘archived articles’. – the question is, who is doing the Caldwell praising – other CC pastors?

  135. Good grief, MLD. Hero worship?

    Now you are just being deliberately obstinate.

    I don’t care that you don’t care a fig about Calvary Chapel. Why should you?

    But for a CC pastor like myself to want the best for the future, at a time when the biggest transition is taking place from longtime founding pastors getting older and eventually stepping aside, is not “hero worship” – all the more considering my own personal experience which you know all too well and should not want wished upon another.

  136. Why there are archived articles praising Caldwell I have no idea …..who is doing the Caldwell praising – other CC pastors?
    —————————————-
    Because Alex went to his church a few times and met with him privately and shared what was a very positive experience and others shared what he shared.

    So, no, not other CC pastors.

  137. Michael,
    I agree that those invested in the church have the right to know what happened. However, I believe that info should come from the folks at the church, not spread all over the Internet for those who have zero invested in it.

    I respect you as well.

  138. Bob Caldwell was a significant leader in CC, not just in Boise.
    He had a seat on the CCA council at one time and is very well known in the mission field.

    Now….if you of over to CC Boise’s website you will have no clue that anything unusual happened this weekend.
    No statement, no video of the service.

    This leads to people emailing me and demanding proof of this…and others wanting to know why I haven’t written the whole story.

    I’ve been called everything but holy for days.

    Why haven’t they posted the statement and the video?
    Why should the burden of proof be on me?

  139. Steve, I guess I am baffled by your shock and rejection of Caldwell’s succession plan. He did exactly what he said he was going to do – and I assume what he was advising you to do – make an exit plan. You may not have known his motive (that he was going to need to leave under a cloud) but when he left his succession plan was in place and worked smoothly.

    The 8th commandment requires that as Christians we put the best construction on situations – and you are not. The least you could do is compliment the guy for taking care of his church before his own life imploded.

  140. To Michael’s recent point.

    Caldwell was on the CC Council. He is now absent and his name has been absent from the letters involving the future of the movement.

    I for one (and others) have noted that and have asked why. Did he resign the Council because he disagrees with their statements about Brian. Why did he not sign the letters if he did not resign? Does he disagree? Hey, did the Council vote to kick him off?

    Well, now we know why he is absent, don’t we. Because of this blog.

    And I happened to write the Council and use Bob as an example of my questions on this matter which does effect the future of OUR Calvary Chapel (and the other 1800 out there)

    Maybe the Council members (those who might know the truth, if any) did not feel it was their job to tell CC pastors about his moral failing before the people of Boise knew. And rightfully so. I know I would be able to write a different letter now, and would do so, than I did 3 weeks ago.

    It’s not “hero worship” to acknowledge his position of leadership and positive reputation gained in serving the Lord for decades, or the chain of repercussion down through Calvary Chapel beyond his one local church given the current split the movement is experiencing.

  141. Allegedly,his “succession” plan was put together very quickly when he got caught.
    The one who caught him told him to resign or they would go public.
    All of a sudden Caldwell felt a new calling.
    The church “allegedly’ had no idea what was really going on.

    They only found out about two weeks ago…allegedly,of course.

    Use the eighth commandment on that pile of smoking dog crap to the best of your ability.

  142. Steve,

    Based on what I know today…I don’t think the council knew about this.
    That is open to correction…

  143. MLD. I can’t celebrate a lie.

    For all we know, Bob would have been up there for another 25 years until the coroner carried him out of the pulpit.

    His “successful” succession plan that worked so “smoothly” involved assuring his church that his steady hand of leadership would remain behind the scenes and on the Board of Directors going forward – no doubt giving great comfort to the longtimers there. And I assume to justify what I also assume was some sort of ongoing compensation arrangement which was not based on an adultery coverup

  144. I thought Caldwell left 6 months ago – why would he still be on the council?

    I took out my Sharpie and blacked out the 8th commandment.

  145. “And I assume to justify what I also assume was some sort of ongoing compensation arrangement which was not based on an adultery coverup”

    That one should be in capital letters…

  146. He was on the CCA council.
    Also, as we’ve learned in other locations…founding pastors rarely give up control completely…

  147. MLD, Caldwell would have been the perfect sort of person to be on the Council. If no longer serving as a Sr. Pastor, maybe he could have more time to serve the pastors of the movement in that role.

    If those other guys eventually step down as Sr. Pastors one day I see no reason they would need or want to step down from the Council.

  148. In 2008, a fairly well known pastor/mission org pres fell into adultery. We all learned of the infidelity on a Fri. By Fri. afternoon, the BOD’s met including a very prominent person that was considered one of Chuck’s right hand men. They felt that they had two major issues to deal with. First, how do we keep this out of the papers? Second, how do we maintain our donor base? On the very next day at the Sat evening service at CCCM, Brian openly discussed what had happened from the pulpit.

    This guy is now the right hand man to the new celebrity pastor, flavor of the month down in San Juan Capistrano.

    I have much respect for Brian and how he didn’t try to hide or protect anyone.

  149. Oh yeah, the wannabe celebrity pastor in San Juan Capistrano is also with CCA and even attended a pastor’s conference recently to seek the CCA package to a room full of pastors.

  150. But we don’t know – so I assume the best and Michael and Steve… well.
    But hey, you guys know the heart and mind of CC pastors better than I do – so perhaps you are right.

  151. Sell not seek…

  152. MLD, other than Rahab saving the lives of God’s people, the Egyptian midwives lying about saving the lives of those little babies…where in your Bible do you see the celebration or accommodation of a lie?

    This isn’t lying to Nazi soldiers about the Jews in your attic….this is about lying over sexual sin to avoid embarrassment, shame, and loss of status (and likely, income)

    His lie did not protect an innocent 3rd party being hunted down for death. And as is in the Bible “his sin found him out”

    Michael is a reporter here. Not the whistleblower. And he is doing a service that is, in fact, valuable to many (though heartbreaking indeed)

  153. covered,

    I’d bet the ranch that the wannabe ends up on our front page someday…

  154. That’s funny Michael. I often open up this blog thinking the same thing.

  155. Michael & Steve Wright,
    I am appreciating your most recent comments. If it were found that there were those who had knowledge of Bob’s affair and were complicit in a cover up, what would you say to them? Secondly, what do you think should have been done back when it was discovered that Chuck Smith had committed this sin? I am genuine in wanting insight from the both of you.

  156. covered…I am almost 100% sure I know the reference you cite…

    Man, do I have a backstory on that one from over a decade prior….needless to say, I was not overly shocked at the news. Saddened, yes. Totally surprised? No.

  157. JM,

    If I find complicity and cover up, I’ll write it if it seems the just and righteous thing to do.

    The Chuck Smith issue is very complex…I’m writing about it in my book.
    All I can say is that no one suffered more for longer over that situation than Chuck Smith…and it set up a series of issues that everyone is still dealing with today.

  158. covered, to be clear, I was talking about the adulterous pastor from 2008

  159. Ok, Michael. My history with CC goes back pretty far (early 70’s). Since my family suffered under the leaven of lax attitudes within this association–and much of it due to that cover up–it will always make me thoughtful. Thank you for addressing my question, though. It is appreciated.

  160. “Michael is a reporter here. Not the whistleblower. And he is doing a service that is, in fact, valuable to many (though heartbreaking indeed)”

    I agree – so report away – but why are the comments open – that doesn’t facilitate the reporting.

    No one is protecting a liar – the church handled it internally with their congregation and they said that Bob was to eventually address the congregation – so if the church knows and Bob may (he may not – he may chicken out) apologize, repent of the act and of the lie – but in the end, who is this conversation informing or helping.

  161. Steve, should I take this conversation about what happened at a corrupt CC – a CC that is handling it – but use this to make your congregation suspicious of you and what you may be doing wrong, or suspect you may be doing the same act as Caldwell? Because that is the only purpose I see here- as CC Boise has been told already.

  162. but in the end, who is this conversation informing or helping.
    —————————————-
    I thought I have said multiple times now, it informs and helps me – as a CC pastor, at this time in our movement’s history.

    If you feel like you are rubbernecking, then get alone with the Lord and look in the mirror and consider maybe repenting.

    I know I am perfectly happy these days staying away from some of the articles around here….

  163. but use this to make your congregation suspicious of you and what you may be doing wrong,
    ———————————————
    LOL. You wouldn’t be the first MLD…but they are veritable professionals to your amateur status…

    And we have a written accountability procedure that is followed if anyone with an ounce of credibility or not living a double life should bring an accusation.

    (Actually, the procedure allows for those people too….they just aren’t going to get out of the batter’s box)

  164. I knew what you meant Steve. When the pastor was asked what the hell was he thinking? He responded that he believed the press. He felt that it was him that was doing all the amazing work and God was only the co-pilot. (Not his exact words but you get the gist)

  165. I didn’t mean me – but if everyone in Boise knows about Caldwell’s sin, the only thing I can see is that this is a warning for all CC congregations to take another look at their pastor – as we know, all these CC pastors were great guys … until they weren’t.

    Without a board chosen by the congregation, but packed by the pastor – or have no expiration date – as I think your board pretty much has a life time shelf life – accountability papers can mean nothing.

  166. But hey, this is an internal CC thing and I am rubbernecking – but hey there is absolutely no sin in that kind of entertainment — I mean it’s not like breaking the 8th commandment. 😉

  167. covered, his was the only other CC I ever attended besides Costa Mesa – my first year as a Christian. Just a few months old in the Lord when we started going there, We were there less than 3 months and went sprinting back to Costa Mesa and the 90 minute round trip commute instead of the 5 minute one to his place. Didn’t leave again for 8 years until we started our first church.

    Sometimes the short drive to the most local church is not the best option for one’s spiritual growth.

  168. Without a board chosen by the congregation, but packed by the pastor – or have no expiration date – as I think your board pretty much has a life time shelf life – accountability papers can mean nothing.
    ———————————————————
    MLD, when you move from opinion to errors of fact directed at me personally, you force me to respond because a whole lot of people are reading this thread and I am the one who posts by name. (I get messages regularly, privately, about this blog and my comments here)

    So, since you bear your false witness here, I will clarify that

    A) I did not pick one member of our current Board of Directors, as they were all placed there by my predecessor more than 8 years ago

    B) I did in fact write, along with that same Board of Directors, our accountability guidelines which were not in existence before I became the Sr. Pastor. That explain how any of us in leadership, including me, can be removed.

    C) We have deliberately kept this same Board of Directors until our financial obligation is concluded with my predecessor, which has been a wise decision given the history of these last 8 years. We have every intention of rotating the Board and believe me, I am more than eager to open the opportunity to others in the Body. (Although frankly, other than ongoing transition related matters, there is not a lot of sizzle in the typical Board business of our church. We are too broke to have much to talk about 🙂 )

  169. Steve, you attended RSM?

  170. Good Lord…

    For the readers…I am very well acquainted with Steve Wright’s by laws and have watched his board in action in a very difficult situation.

    The congregation in LE has nothing to worry about.

    Nothing.

  171. the only thing I can see is that this is a warning for all CC congregations to take another look at their pastor – as we know, all these CC pastors were great guys … until they weren’t.
    ————————————————
    Now, back to your matters of opinion. I agree with you here. And yeah, when a CC pastor falls, it does reflect badly on all of us. I think you might have already gotten that vibe reading all the comments people on this blog have against CC as a whole.

    And so yeah, my participation here is to balance that playing field somewhat…and to build a reputation with others, both inside and outside of CC circles. It’s not like I am speaking at conferences.. 🙂

    And I more than invite anyone to look into my life as closely as they desire. Ask around the church how I am with the people. Find out our policies about being alone with women etc. One reason I can post as often here as I do is because I make sure that I am home, with my wife and family, every waking hour I do not absolutely have to be serving at the church. I doubt there is any time out of the day my wife does not know my whereabouts.

    The sheer amount of foolish sinful choices, one by one, all with the Holy Spirit screaming at the man to stop, before a guy ends up in bed with another woman is staggering. It does not just “happen”. And so yeah, I get emotional about it.

    We have three pastors on staff (plus our Spanish pastor) and all are in agreement (now before anything that might ever happen) that adultery will be an immediate disqualification and removal – and our Board agrees. There will be not even a sniff of coverup – and going on record again, here and now, just testifies fully to that commitment at CCLE

  172. Thanks, Michael.

    Yep, covered.

  173. re #132

    “Unfortunately,the blogger just had another story laid on his lap that is the most evil he’s ever heard…and doesn’t care about the consequences any more.”

    I’m completely lost here…

  174. Stephen,

    This isn’t an easy blog to maintain.
    People say bad things about me and sometimes it gets to me.
    Sometimes I want to quit and write cat stories as I wait for the onset of dementia… 🙂

    Yesterday another story was presented to me that has rocked me.
    No one else is going to write it.
    I have to.

    So…I was just doing some preliminary whining.
    I should have started a blog on animal husbandry or cabinet making…

  175. Wow Steve, small world…

  176. Steve, I didn’t speak of you in particular but generalized the typical CC leadership function and pointed out one commonality with your church.
    I had hoped that you would have recognized it sooner.

  177. Steve Wright, let me say that I really respect how you handle yourself here.

    I appreciate your forthright manner and especially your ability to keep MLD in his place 😉

  178. Michael,

    I can completely appreciate what you are saying. I don’t know if I could do what you do…the headaches (and ulcers) would make life…difficult…to say the least.

    Whine on, as long as you need to. 😉

    (I hear there is a market for macrame these days)

  179. Post# 138

    “Now….if you go over to CC Boise’s website you will have no clue that anything unusual happened this weekend.
    No statement, no video of the service.
    This leads to people emailing me and demanding proof of this…and others wanting to know why I haven’t written the whole story.”

    Michael,

    I was in Church on Sunday at CCBoise and a two page letter was read aloud by Pastor Tucker.

    1. Bob Caldwell committed adultery… yes it is true.
    2. No audio or video has been posted on the Church website, though they say it will be.
    3. They (elders, pastors, board members) say they just found out about it 2 weeks ago.

    Prayer for Pastor Tucker and the Church body would be appreciated.

  180. Michael

    If you ever feel like a mental vacation you can always blog about acid staining 50 year old interior concrete. God knows I need the help

    🙂

  181. I take back all the points I made (or failed to make) yesterday about how the Caldwell situation should be handled. I realize that I come from a different generation and a very different church culture.

    I was thrown into leadership at my church when our pastor went rogue. It was given to the new guys (there was a couple of us) to lead the church. We dealt with the issue internally, when it got difficult we called in our circuit counselor and when we needed more fire power we brought in the district president (who was best friends with our pastor since seminary days 35 yrs previous.)

    We ended up suspending the pastor for almost a year – we had several meetings within the congregation to keep everyone up to date. It never occurred to us that we needed to alert the public, to blog about it or post it on our website.

    Anyone outside who needed to know – the synod, Concordia University Irvine were notified by phone.
    I will chalk it up to a different church culture and leave it at that. We restored the pastor – about 1/4th of the church was pissed and left – but both sides still refrained from blogging and website posting or any other kind of public shaming – and it worked. 🙂

  182. MLD, as I think I’ve told you before..I knew about your pastoral issue when it was happening. And not because you told me. Yeah, it may not have been highly publicized but your pastor did not lead a multi thousand mega church, nor was he removed for adultery disqualification. However, let’s not pretend more than a few of the disgruntleds didn’t share their frustration. How did I know about it if they did not?

    What you describe DOES happen even in our “church culture” too. No fanfare outside of those who need to know as an issue is dealt with within the local church.

  183. Steve, obviously our memories differ. Mine shows that I told you about a year after and didn’t tell you the reason for another couple of years. I also remember that you told me we did not punish him enough.

    I do like the way you prioritize the disqualifying sins …

    “What you describe DOES happen even in our “church culture” too. No fanfare outside of those who need to know as an issue is dealt with within the local church.” – shouldn’t that be ALL situations?

    But alas, I am being dragged back in – hey, you guys go string up your guys any way you want and I will not interfere.

  184. MLD,

    You are talking about radically different church cultures.
    Your group has a designated hierarchy to handle such issues.
    Most independent churches do not.

    We would all prefer that these kind of “transitions” could be done quietly and gracefully…but that is not always possible.

  185. I’m sure I was being gracious in silence as you shared rather than interrupt you and say “I know about all that already”

    And your crack at how I prioritize sins, while not saying publicly to the readers what his sin was is noted. Needless to say, if the readers did know, I imagine they all would see a major difference between the two.

    Besides, any accountability process has to allow for different degrees of discipline. It’s not an either or process, fired or remain as if nothing happened. Some sins, like your pastor’s, can rightfully be dealt with through suspension and healing and restoration. And again, my criticism was not that you guys did not fire him, but the speed in which he was restored.

  186. I contend, and Google backs me up, that if you are famous enough pastoring at a large enough church, your adultery will make the news.

    I also contend if you are obscure enough, it won’t. Church culture and denomination has nothing to do with it except to the level they may try to cover it up…the Catholics had a culture for their evil too, until the media exploded the story

  187. Tullian was a Presbyterian pastor.

  188. Steve, you still miss the point. My claim wasn’t if folks outside knew. Part of the anger comes because the church in Boise has not posted the letter on it’s own website and that they have not posted the video of the service / including the announcement on the website – as the church is expected to publicly shame the pastor. – and this would be expected from any church in your system that is large enough to have it’s own website.

    In Boise’s case, they are taking the heat after they handled the issue. The church is now whole and you and yours won’t allow it to remain that way. Again, string them up the way you want to.

  189. Michael,
    “You are talking about radically different church cultures.”

    And that is what I said in my #181

  190. Oh please, you haven’t just moved the goalposts but the whole stadium. This discussion is not about anger at the church for not posting something online. That has only been referenced briefly, and only because 1) they promised to and 2) Michael was getting crap from some offblog demanding corroboration.

  191. “… and this would be expected from any church in your system that is large enough to have it’s own website.”

    To be fair, in this day and age, EVERY church (regardless of size) needs to have a website…Especially independent ones.

  192. MLD,

    There is a rather large contingent of folks who think I wake up in the morning and make up lies about prominent CC pastors.
    They believe all my articles about the CC split are either fabricated or planted by the enemies of Jesus.
    Unless you were at the services in Boise on Sunday or watched them on the internet,there is no corroboration that a major player has fallen.
    Boise said they were going to post the material…not me.

  193. Here’s what just is not getting through to some. Bob’s face was prominently listed on the Council leadership page until 2 weeks ago. Right after the Brian controversy had begun.

    Likewise, when this stuff is covered up, guys have a tendency to pop up elsewhere in a new ministry, using their stellar reputations and the benefit of a few years of silence to continue on. At least if people want to listen to an adulterer, they ought to know they are.

  194. None of this is any of my business but for the sake of the PhxP, here’s my opinion: Yes, the sins of a famous pastor should be made public as far as he has had influence. If he had a national audience and a national leadership role, I guess the nation needs to know (in the briefest way possible) what happened. As for the other people involved, unless his partner in crime is also a well-known person, let her sins be between her family, her God and herself.

    The PhxP is a news source for the Calvary Chapel world, odd as that may be. So be it.

  195. I think Bob should be fired. I have no problem with that at all – in fact it is the only thing to do. But, do you put wanted posters all over town? Perhaps you do.

    Steve, “Likewise, when this stuff is covered up,…” now you have gone back to accusing Boise of a cover up that needs to be exposed.

  196. MLD, you are being obtuse to the point of sinful misrepresentation. I applaud Boise for their actions this week, and have never implied a cover up. However, this sin HAS been covered up in the past by other men and/or churches.

    Now, I am done engaging your deliberate misrepresentations of me and my beliefs. I have been quite clear here.

    And since it was way back in the thread, I will repeat what I said earlier…to Xenia’s point. Let the lady stay anonymous.

  197. Puts a whole new spin on the term lay minister

  198. Sad news,

    I listened to the audio clip and I can accept the apology but this whole “VISION” that was added onto the message with the dead caskets coming alive driving away in the white pick up truck that was the same color as Caldwell’s truck makes me want to vomit.

  199. Lots of opinions offered here validly from different perspectives.

    Many years ago I had concern for family members who would happen upon this site and then read some tough things about a spouse, father, child, etc. I stated as much.

    In stories like this I always think to the powerful message one of our members shared from the perspective of the guilty pastor. I still believe it is a must listen for all of us.

    Hopefully true healing and reconciliation can be achieved by the two impacted families.

  200. Just a heads up since I already got one message off line.

    When I post, I use both my names. Never just “Steve” – that is a different poster.

  201. I have attended CC Boise for over a decade, and I was there on Sunday. I’m all over the place with my feelings. I’m heartbroken, hopeful, angry, hurt, feel betrayed, faithful, reminded that in the end Christ is the only one I can truly expect to be perfect. I love my church, and I’m so very sad for Tucker. I can only imagine what he is going through.

    Michael (blog owner), thank you for providing a place where I can read all these comments and sift through my own feelings.

    Michael, I might regret asking, but in #41 you said, “The one who cought him said to resign or they would go public.” Is it still your understanding that BC’s short notice resignation came after someone threatened to publicize the affair if he didn’t step down?

    I am struggling to process this part of it the most. We all knew he was making a transition plan, as he had previously gently prepared us for the change that would take place in 1-3 yrs. But I felt shocked by his short term resignation in March. And I felt guilty for being upset about it at the time. If God was leading him in that decision, I thought I should happily accept God’s plan. Now I’m realizing that the timing wasn’t God’s perfect Plan A, and I didn’t need to beat myself up for being upset about it in March.

  202. “Is it still your understanding that BC’s short notice resignation came after someone threatened to publicize the affair if he didn’t step down?”

    That has been verified through multiple sources…

  203. Alice,

    I pretty much have the whole story at this point and all I would say is that I think your current leadership is handling the issue in a responsible and God honoring way.

  204. Alice, God bless you.

    You sound like someone with a very tender heart. I have nothing to add except that I share, in some limited way, the pain you all must be going through at CCB.

    Isaiah 54:10

  205. Why do they always liken themselves to KingDavid…they are not kings. Sigh.

    King David was not a pastor called by God to be a religious leader. He was not explaining the Bible to his royal subjects. That was Davids

    The church is not the pastor’s royal subjects. His palace. His kindom.

    That is just messed up

  206. Alice, I am sorry for your loss and your pain. praying for you

  207. I’ve been reading this Blog for 10 years and MLD seldom agrees with anyone. Stop taking the bait!

  208. John the Baptist seldom agreed with anyone either – and your point?

  209. Hi Alice, welcome to the PP. You and your church family will be prayed over by many here. I couldn’t help but notice your last sentence, a statement about not needing to “beat yourself up for being upset.” I am sorry that you felt the need to beat yourself up about anything that your pastor said or did. Bob has hurt you and finding out that someone you love and trust has fallen, is betrayal. Betrayal hurts. It hurt Jesus and it will hurt us. I hope that you are looking forward to what God can do to restore all those who worship at CC Boise.

  210. Oh no, you have to pay closer attention to how Michael, Steve W and Josh the Baptist deal with MLD. They all do an excellent job of letting him speak without allowing his words to bother them. It really is a gift! 🙂

  211. MLD

    Expressing my point would be taking your bait.

  212. Covered

    His words don’t bother me.

  213. Alice, I am a member of the church too and have experienced all those same emotions. These days I have been plunged into a dark place as i struggle spiritually, emotionally, and even physically since I haven’t been sleeping well.

    Part of my struggle is not knowing how long I sat under Bob and learned from him that he was carrying on this affair. Many of the things he said from the “pulpit” have been ringing in my head these days and I dont know what was sincere or what was just meaningless words as he went through the motions of being a career pastor.

    Then, today I found release after I listened to the audio one more time since Sunday. I appreciate the leaders statement and Bobs confession he wrote. But gently God spoke to my heart and said my days at Calvary chapel Boise are over. I know Tucker and the leadership will do great in navigating this chaos and I pray God lead them and heal everyone that chooses to remain at CC Boise.

    Calvary Chapel Boise is just a church (note the use of a lower case “c”) but we are the Church with an uppercase “C” and the gates of hell will not prevail against us. The wood, hay, and stubble will burn. It what’s left is gonna be golden. Keep the faith and hope friends.

  214. I went through three CC’s where immorality was the problem and no one was ever removed except a plebe It leaves you numb and it leaves you scarred. However, Tam Nal is right. When you realize WE ARE THE CHURCH, you also realize that God never went anywhere and these are all just men that put their pants on one leg at a time like the rest of us. When they fail, we simply find out about ourselves. Is our faith based upon these men or upon the work of Jesus on the cross? If CC in its present form suddenly ceased to exist, it will never take away the good that God has done for each and every one of us. Salvation is God’s gift to us directly and cannot be taken away. There is still only one mediator between God and man and that is still Jesus Christ. We are safe in Him and always will be.

  215. dusty’s 206 is something that needs to be a reminder to us all – true Truth

    also, having covered the ground one time long ago myself, i am certain that God’s Truth can be spoken by a pastor who is going thru turmoil in his private life or thoughts… and that Truth can bless the hearer … how many sinning priests have performed the liturgical rites (not my cup of tea) of their church and blessed the worshippers in spite of who was officiating, i wonder?

    it is IMV possible for a pastor to love God’s truth, celebrate it from the pulpit, and yet not be qualified for the office because of the personal struggles that dominate him in his own life… it doesn’t make him a devil (necessarily), nor does it mean that he is not redeemed (perhaps, perhaps not), but it does mean that he’s walking on thin ice with God by hanging onto his pastorate when it is clear in scripture that he’s not to be doing what he’s doing on either end…

  216. Having listened to the recording of the written statement and subsequent comments from the new CCB pastor, I must say it was very sobering for me personally.

    May the Lord extend mercy to everyone involved.

  217. Scooter referenced:
    Isaiah 54:10 For the mountains may depart
    and the hills be removed,
    but my steadfast love shall not depart from you,
    and umy covenant of peace shall not be removed,”
    says the Lord, who has compassion on you.

    Perfect! Thank you Scooter! And yes, Tucker’s words are sobering. Bob became what he harted and didn’t realize it. If a man that in love with God, and I have no doubt, could be deceived, then we must all guard our hearts from Satan. It’s only slightly reassuring to me that as a non- pastor I may be under less attack than a man like BC that had such a special, gentle way of reaching so many for the Lord.

    Thank you everyone for your kind words.

    Tam, I hope you are hearing the Lord correctly in your choice to leave. You might wait for reassurance of that, to be sure it isn’t human emotion. I am proud of the way the current CCB leadership is heading, and I am starting to feel excited for our future this evening. Thanks everyone!

  218. Alice, God bless you sister. I agree the leadership at Calvary is doing great. I have no doubt that from this tragedy will come something beautiful. Like baking a loaf of bread, the wheat first must be crushed and ground to a fine powder, mixed and kneaded, then put in intense heat to finally yield something edible. The core body and leadership at Calvary are experiencing this process now.
    You have been there for over a decade so your roots run deeper than mine. I have been going for 2 years and never really got plugged in. I was among the swarm of nameless faceless believers that shuffled in and out every week. I mean I participated as much is possible in a larger church. But I am sure God has given me the green light to go. I know others that are leaving too. Personally, I am increasingly finding myself disillusioned with institutional church. I’m just not sure anymore if the way we do “church” in western civilization is the way God intended it to be done. I am going to take a break from organized church and seek God from my home. Maybe it will grown into how church is done in many countries around the world, small cells of people instead of a large institute.
    I’m not quitting Calvary because of this affair but this has served as the last straw on the back of a tired and disheartened old camel.

    Love you sister.

  219. Tam Nal

    I don’t know you, so forgive the comment if it’s not helpful.

    First let me say I understand your hurt. Many years ago I used to bear no sympathy with those who felt disillusioned by the church. After being kicked out of my non denominational denomination as a pastor for having a variation on a secondary aspect of theology (not for sin), and being subsequentially slandered by leaders and old friends, etc. I started to understand. The only thing that got me through that time was knowing God’s sovereignty and plan for his church.

    Can I just say though, that in your pain I have a concern that you effectively lose the church by being the church. The local church is not church with a small c. The universal church does not exist without the local, and this makes the local church vitally important. All the NT letters are written to local churches. They may not have been mega churches, but they were clearly established with elders and deacons. They were not only organic cells, but they had clearly defined leadership. The only places where they were embryonic, like in Ephesus and Crete specifically, Paul instructed his co labourers to finish the job and get proper leadership in place. I have nothing against house churches, as the church I pastor now functioned as groups that live life as church truly and then multiple groups gathering on a Sunday together under shared eldership in a rented building. However, it breaks my heart when I hear people say they want to “take a break fro church”. We don’t need to worship men, as I too learned. But we do need leadership and a defined local church (a group of God’s called out and collected ones) for our spiritual health and in fact to ensure the health of the leaders. It’s all symbiotic and we all need each other.

    I would encourage you to first meet with one of your pastors and give your reasons for wanting to leave and ask to be sent out. If they are unavailable as sometimes happens in mega churches then meet with whoever you have contact with in some form of leadership (you may have done this already – so forgive me if you have). They need to know reasons so they can grow, or perhaps they may actually pastor you through this, and perhaps you might b apart of the redemption story. I’m not necessarily pushing that as I have a different ecclesiology than Calvary now, but I am respecting the family you are currently apart of. I suspect the newer leaders are closer to my ecclesiology now than before though,

    Once sent from them, finding a new local expression of the body should be undertaken with care in regards to gospel doctrine and then a shared philosophy of how to walk as church. Because of God’s faithifulnees, I have to believe there will be a house church, a church plant, or even a bigger established church with qualified leaders who you can grow with, encourage, support, and work with for the glory of God.

    I don’t live in the USA right now and have met leaders from all over the world in various movements. Even if they are smaller or house church, the healthy ones always have clearly defined leadership, etc.

    Overall, place your faith in Jesus as you’ve been doing, but Jesus in inextricably tied together with his people who are the church expressed primarily in local organised fellowship with the marks of the true church. Seeking God will be in His community, if that’s from home you still needs the gifts of leaders to you and they’ll need your part of the body as well.

    I know all the parties involved very well and have as much room for hurt as anyone,so I’m not speaking merely from cold logic, but out of concern for how you might glorify God and enjoy Him and his people in the midst of their mess, and all of our brokenness

    Love in Christ

  220. Dual Citizen,

    Well said. I agree leadership is absolutely necessary for the growth of individual believers and the Church (uppercase C.) But I have serious doubts about the structure of the institutional church where we have larger than life senior pastors that administrate, as well as teach, and preach every Sunday. These pastors are usually surrounded by other junior pastors, in Bobs case all of them very young, none his equal in age and influence thus making him far too superior for correction. Perhaps this contributed to his fall.

    Essentially, the current western model of church (lowercase c) isn’t serving the needs of the Church. It leaves one man navigating a large ship, which in many cases are luxury liners instead of weather beaten fishing boats. The purpose of a church is to brave the rough waters of life towards Christ, seeking survivors along the way. But it seems all too often these churches are docking their luxury liners on some tropical island instead of venturing out into the deep waters. Sure these churches have great programs in place that use our tithe money to feed the homeless, take care of the widows and orphans, help ex-cons and drug addicts, and I support that 100%, as well as paying our pastors a salary. But in the carrying out of these tasks and ensuring the luxury liner stays afloat, as well as salaries maintained, vision is lost. The luxury liner that once was a brave little ship searching the rough waters for souls to save is now more concerned how they can keep that large ship docked on this beautiful island.

    Maybe the ship needs to sink. I’m not just speaking of ccboise. All of these mega structures could use a Titanic experience to put the fear of LIFE back into them. Maybe all these gifted pastors and teachers would bail ship and buy themselves small schooners, some fishing nets and a small band of hearty brothers and sisters to set sail across the deep waters in the power of God. This type of thing is happening in the underground church all over the world and they are flourishing! American church is not. Statistics show we are barely staying afloat.

    I am not done with church because I am the Church. My time, money, energy, and heart will continue to commit itself to the Lords purpose. I’m just leaving the luxury liner to go fishing.

    God help us.

  221. Tam Nal
    You hit the nail in the head with this:

    “These pastors are usually surrounded by other junior pastors, in Bobs case all of them very young, none his equal in age and influence thus making him far too superior for correction. ”

    This applies not only in preventing s pastor from falling morally but this inhibits the maturity development of the senior leader and the overall leadership and the entire body .

  222. victorious,

    I think this is a little more common than it should be.

    I wonder how much of this is not because of the not so subtle vibe within CC that one “arrives” when one becomes a Sr. Pastor. Thus, a lot of assistants are eventually out planting new churches, and while planting new churches is great there is still a lot to be said about someone being an assistant pastor at the same place for the same 30+ years as the Sr. Pastor.

    Once more, CCCM would be an example of this with Romaine.

    Therefore, I conclude that the recent effort, led I believe largely by Brian, to include assistant pastors at conferences and so forth is a good move in the right direction.

  223. i am concerned about the trend to pull away from the organized churches in favor of going it alone with the Lord… i realize and have experienced the organization getting in the way of my own spiritual growth as well as getting between me and the Lord – there IS a spiritual dynamic that is One on one that can get lost in the desire for activity and, yes, even intellectualism as defined in the secular…
    what concerns me is that one needs to be taught and, with a few exceptions, most of us don’t do that well on our own… we don’t seem to have many sound, disciplined teachers out there today…
    my question is, is it wrong for pastors to have teachers (ongoing) from whom they regularly intake sound and pertinent doctrines which they then can simply pass on to their flocks?
    i think someone touched on this before here… i think a case can be made for doing it this way

  224. I have attended CC Boise for over 20 years. This is truly my church family. I have been tremendously blessed by Bob’s teaching during most of that time; what has happened now does not negate an entire 3 decades of faithful, anointed ministry. I know the Caldwell family. I admit I have not read every single comment in this thread, but I would like to respond to a few recurring themes in what I have read. I would recommend that before anyone comments regarding this situation, they should actually listen to Pastor Tucker’s statement.

    First of all, as to whether the woman should be exposed, in Matthew 18, we are told to try to deal with another person’s sin first privately, then with one or two witnesses, and if the person does not repent, THEN make it public. I do not know who the woman is, nor do I need to know; however, I am certain that the third step of the Matthew 18 process is not warranted in this case. The standard is higher for pastors and leaders.

    Second, the idea that people will blame Bob’s wife somehow if they don’t know the identity of the woman involved is absurd. No one who has ever met Bob’s wife would consider thinking this, she is without a doubt the most beautiful, godly woman I have ever known. The love of Jesus radiates from her. Because she is human, she is not perfect, but she is a good and loving wife. Her love and respect for her husband has always been evident. Whatever happened with Bob, it was not because of any deficiency in his wife (and the idea in general that men commit adultery because of some failure in their wives is ridiculous anyway; every person is 100% responsible for his or her own sin).

    A few people commented that the leadership at Calvary Boise was covering up Bob’s sin, which I fail to understand, because none of us would have heard about it if they had not chosen to release the information publicly and hold him accountable. But his primary accountability is to the Lord, and I am confident that He will bring good from evil, and not only restore Bob, but address the issues in his life which he may have been unaware of in the past that led him to this place.

    Finally, I think the message we can all take away from this is, “Let him who thinks he stands take heed, lest he fall.” In Galations 5 it says, “If we walk in the Spirit, we will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh,” but no one walks in the Spirit 100% of the time, and when we step away, the world, the flesh, and the devil are all waiting to pull us down. And some of us have a bigger target painted on our backs than others in the enemy’s temptation program. We all need to be careful, to walk closely with the Lord, to feed on his word and seek out his presence throughout the course of every single day. Our faith is not in any living man, but in God, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

    I’m sure that Bob can now look back and see where he made choices that allowed him to end up in a place in which, I believe, he never intended to be (the sin itself, not just the consequences). Jesus showed his wisdom, mercy, and compassion when he told the crowd, “You who are without sin, throw the first stone.” To quote a favorite hymn, “Oh to grace how great a debtor daily I’m constrained to be.” As his brothers and sisters in Christ, our responsibility is to pray for everyone affected by this horrible situation, show the love, grace, mercy, and forgiveness which should characterize us as believers, and look to our own hearts.

    Tam Nal, Alice, and others, I’ll probably see you around (although we won’t know it 🙂 )

  225. John 20:29,

    Teaching is absolutely necessary. I happen to work a job where I can listen to podcasts all day long. This allows me to tap the massive archive of great teachings online. But I agree, not everyone does so well studying alone but I don’t think following the Senior Pastor model guarantees quality teaching.

    The months leading up to Bobs resignation his Sunday and Wednesday teaching was garbage. Many times I wondered if he even prepared. In one of his sermons he was on a tangent and said that if we (the congregation) were tuned into God he could be up there speaking nonsense and we’d still get something out of it. My thought at the time was “yeah, maybe you’re right but would you send your kids to go dig through a dumpster to find dinner or would you carefully prepare a meal for them?”

    It’s for this reason that I was so relieved when Tucker and Reggie took the stage I was like “yes! Finally something I can chew on.” And once Tom Velasco was introduced I have been moved all the more.

    My point is, when the entire “meal” is cooked and served by one pastor it often times lacks inspiration and nutrition. Many time the pastors is just doing his “job.” I would like to see a more well-rounded preaching and teaching base not a one man show. But the “one man show” is what the up and coming pastors aim for. It is the pinnacle objective of most career pastors. I think this is a serious flaw. Aren’t there many members in one body?

  226. I agree with Tam – the months – actually for a couple years – before Bob handed over the reigns to Tucker, his talks were filled with stories that he would tell about himself between sips from his water bottle. He originally at least presented a section of the Word each week that challenged us in our daily walk of faith and his stories would punctuate something in scripture; but they really began to get old once there was no more verse by verse study of the books in the Bible. We knew this change in teaching style was telling us something but exactly what we weren’t sure.

    I have to say, one reason we are surprised by this bombshell announcement is Bob seemed way too busy to have TIME for an extra marital affair. He had been constantly involved with multiple projects here in Boise and at his ranch in Garden Valley which were both church related and personal. Also, he was always going on missions and video-project trips – at least that’s what were told and believed – not only to India but around the globe. We were amazed how much he could accomplish here at home when he also had a travel itinerary that rivals a CEO of a global company. How the heck did he have time to add another relationship in the mix with all those projects?

    Another thought which relates to the timing of his transition and this announcement – Bob chose to hand over the reigns to Tucker at Easter time which is a major Christian holiday and not a typical time to announce such a thing to a church. Now here it is the weekend before Christmas and the people at CCB are hit with a part two they didn’t see coming. It’s like Merry Christmas everybody! Yes, he was getting pressure from the other half of his adultery team, but it’s like the worst Christmas to remember for a lot of people especially the worst for his family.

  227. So true J KELLER. It has been an awkward year. Especially for the Caldwell family and the people closest to the situation. My heart is broken for them. It may not sound like it from reading my posts but I’m just venting. I want to lash out at the establishment because in my mind it’s part of the problem. But really I’m just hurt. I want it all to go away. So, everyone please excuse me…I’m just boiling over here.

  228. When pastors quit studying the scriptures for themselves…quit allowing the Holy Spirit to speak to them, they lose touch with their congregations, and more importantly with what God would have them communicate. An ivory tower is a tough place from which to understand realty. Pastors need to understand from which their congregations come..

  229. praying for all who are now having to walk the walk thru this morass – as someone implied in this thread… keep your eyes upon Jesus Christ – He NEVER fails us

  230. As Victorious has already said, this comment by Tam nails it:

    “These pastors are usually surrounded by other junior pastors, in Bobs case all of them very young, none his equal in age and influence thus making him far too superior for correction”

    Sadly that was one of the main themes at the 2014 SPC, focus on the youth, train up the youth, let the youth be more involved in leadership. While all that is well and good, and necessary, it should not be at the expense of the older, more seasoned staff. Both young and old bring value to the table, and each brings something that the other doesn’t bring.

  231. I’ve been trying to process this. It’s not processing. Not that I’m in shock someone fell. It happens. It’s just that Calvary Chapel has been one of the best things that happened to our family and also one of the worst. Bob was part of the best times.

    When I first stepped in the doors of CC Boise in 1996, Bob still had a lot of hippie left in him. So did the church. The worship team was a couple of ladies, one on guitar and the other on flute, I think. Bob walked up to the podium in jeans, t-shirt (summer in Boise) flashed a ‘peace sign’ and asked us how we were doing. A full beard and hair to his shoulders, this was unlike any pastor I had ever seen.

    Bob is probably the only pastor that has used the word ‘bogart’ in a sermon. As in, no one gets to bogart all the gifts of the spirit, God gives liberally.
    Did we idolize Bob? Yes we probably did. Did I drink the Calvary kool-aid? Absolutely. I no longer am a young earth advocate; I can drink a glass of wine or enjoy fine bourbon or single malt and maybe a fine cigar, and not feel guilty.

    We learned to live in community with other believers, we grew in love and fellowship, bore each other’s burdens and celebrated our blessings. Some of the people we knew then are still very dear friends.

    Then in 2001, we moved to Washington State where we ran into the Calvary that is responsible for some of the deepest hurts and wounds my family has experienced.
    By 2004 we finally left the church when the pastor literally used two couples in the church to set me up in responding to specific questions and then used my words against me. We were devastated, this manipulation and pastoral abuse had been going on for 3 years and we literally didn’t know what to do.

    It was around this time that I came across the PP through the Christianity Today article on Skip. And what I found astounded me. I wasn’t the only one that this had happened to. As a matter of fact, what my family and I experienced was mild in comparison to some of the stories I read on this blog.

    I tried talking to my friends back at CC Boise, even spoke to an assistant pastor and an elder. But it was very clear: protect the dove. So I found an outlet for my story here.
    Sometime later, I received a call from one of the elders at the CC we no longer attended and wanted to talk. To my wife and me, he apologized for not standing up to the pastor in the midst of the abuse he was causing to us and to a number of other families and individuals. When the church attendance was half or less of what it was, he was recalled behind the Orange curtain for reprogramming.

    This elder then informed us that there was a new pastor and many of the families that had left were returning. I wasn’t ready to return, but my wife and daughter went and was received well and she said it felt safe. I went the following Sunday and after the service I went to shake hands with one of the other elders and mentioned that it was nice to be back. He looked me right in the eye and said, ‘Well Bart, we’re not sure about you. Because of what you have been posting on the PP, we’re not sure you will be a fit here.’
    Against my better judgement, my wife and I agreed to meet with the pastor and elders after everyone had left. I was then informed that if I wanted to fellowship with them, I would have to call the former pastor and be reconciled. Threw Matthew 18 at me. The pastor said we could call right now; he had the other pastor standing by. I looked at him and said, ‘So essentially, for me to return to this church I have to kiss his a**.’ This got me a stern look and then a repeat of Matthew 18. My wife is crying at this point and she said, ‘Don’t you realize what the man has done to our family?’ Then she started sobbing. The betrayal was complete. The first elder was able to appease his conscience from earlier actions, these minions were able to perform a righteous act of protecting the church, and we were left with nothing.

    Apparently, one of the penances that the original pastor had to do on his road to recovery and return to pastoral duties was to call each person he wronged and ask for forgiveness. I have yet to receive that call. His is a known CC name. I still have to forgive him at least a couple of times a month when the anger and bitterness just pops up.
    I also found out that I was trolled by the second pastor and his minions on the PP. I remember answering a request on a post for a private email exchange of stories. They misrepresented themselves and got me to name names.

    In 2011, we moved back to Boise. We were under no illusions that things would be the same, it had been 10 years since we had been to a Sunday service. What we found was a very young, urban, hip congregation. And Bob was hip now too. We probably went a dozen times, and what I realized and was saddened by is that weekend services had become the Bob Show. That’s how it looked to us on the outside looking in.

    We just don’t go to church anymore. That’s another long sad story. But you know what? My faith and understanding of His Grace is stronger than ever.
    I guess I needed to share my story one more time as I process this.

  232. Tam – I think what you have been sharing is from the heart and also some words of wisdom. Be encouraged!

  233. I noticed on the recording of the Sunday service at CCBoise, the new pastor said he was pastoring a church in downtown Boise before?

    Was that also a CC church, anyone know?

    As far as the vision that woman had during that service before he took over the reigns at CCB, makes me wonder if the timing of things could have been different IF he had gone directly to Bob Caldwell with that in March and asked him if it meant anything to him?

  234. Bart,

    Your story made me ache. We share much in common.

  235. Bart – “We just don’t go to church anymore.” That breaks my heart, I’m so sorry for the things that man has done to bring heart ache to your family. May you soon find a church that you can truly call home.

  236. Bart @ 232..Amen Brother.

    We are part of the Ecclesia, just not part of the local church.
    I totally understand where you’re coming from, and I think God does, too.

  237. I found this site on Monday the day after I sat in church and was shocked beyond words to hear about my pastor Bob Caldwell. It has been encouraging to read others thoughts, ideas, opinions and so now I would like to share my thoughts (good or bad) each of us are processing this horrific time in our church. I have incredible moments of sorrow, anger and very pissed off at Bob and his mistress. Right or wrong his is how I feel. And then in this cloud of unbelief and wondering if this is a nightmare there is peace that surpasses all understanding and it is Jesus.

    Both my husband and I have attended CC Boise for over 30 years, I was saved in this church and baptized by Bob. I have witnessed many different growing pains, changes/etc in all these years under Bob’s teaching of the word. God gifted Bob with an incredible gift of teaching, I saw lives changed and miracles happen under his pastor-ship. The Caldwell family is one of the most giving non-judgmental families you will ever know. Cathy, a beautiful woman with a true inner beauty of God’s love for others, I mean this literally. This family had no boundaries of helping and loving people.

    For a few years Bob’s messages changed and it was no longer a deep focus on the WORD, it was dead in many ways however God’s word will not be mocked. Now we know why, Bob was living a deceitful fraudulent life, a complete LIE. I could write a lot more but this is enough on Bob, he is facing unmanageable pain and suffering. I do believe he is in full repentance but his life is forever changed.

    Now we move to 2017 which will be rough but God is God and we will be restored in faith, grace and back into the WORD. Our pastors may be young, however they handled this situation with a spiritual maturity that was straightforward, amazing and comforting at the same time. If you have the opportunity to hear the message from the 18th, it was powerful and I do not mean about the adultery affair, put that aside this message the Tucker shared is powerful.

    Please all that read this just take a moment and lift this church up in prayer and the Caldwell family.

    Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid. John 14:27

  238. There Is Hope In Him,
    Thanks for the encouragement.

  239. This thread has has some great discussion points and its vital to be able to communicate to the people beyond the spin or little information they are going to get because that is the way we do church now. It is now up to each believer to get in the ‘School of Discernment’ and learn from each and every church experience you go through. This is a big one for most here and those of us who attended CC Boise for years feel its vital!

    Tam Mal – your comments have been so beautiful and well written they almost brought me to tears. I could have written them and have said those exact words to my friends who also left CC Boise in a slow group exodus. These are not the bitter, disenfranchised you hear tail of – they are people who have been there from the early days on Longmont, the tent days – serving in every corner of ministry there. They were invested richly along with their families and they’ve seen the writing on the wall for a long time. Could it be this so called crisis is a tool to get everyones attention off the celebrity and back on the Lord? They made him a King or allowed and enabled it and now this situation that seems like an isolated incident is happening. It did not “just happen in a vacuum or test tube.” It has been coming on for a long time. Each time an elder or staff member tried to address the power structure and were shot down it came closer to a test. Meeting after meeting – elder after well intentioned elder have been trying to get a grip on him for a long time now. The people didn’t know it because he was so very good at telling them he had men around him he was accountable to. Check! Do not look at the adultery as the big or only issue here but see the entire system that led to this big bang of an announcement. We have experienced all you talked about and were also tired of being faceless nameless numbers no matter how many social groups they tried to throw at us via Zipcode or Neighborhood Care Group.

    There is so much we could say here we have to hold back! When we first arrived at CC Boise we raved about how wonderful it was and I myself personally recruited many friends there. I was sure they were doing things right. I had hope! I started to pick up on the Red Flags fairly quickly because I was on staff at a mega-church before going there and I knew the signs! I was amazed at how quickly things seemed to pop up there overnight – like a coffee shop – a new thrift store location after the fire – a ministry here, a ministry there. That is till I asked my friends who were on staff if they knew about all these things before hand – Not! Bob singlehandedly ran and micro-managed almost everything there. It was his baby! I started to see he was a one-man band. He could do church with or without anyone else there – if fact those pesky elders often slowed things down. So instead of waiting on projects or spending money he would go ahead and do it and they had better look out! Yes men elders who could nothing to stop the bullet train just as I had seen before. The next stage is when elders are quickly replaced by younger and younger inexperienced men till you are choosing them out of the 5th Grade Classroom. A common solution. Is Tucker really ready to handle this very complicated situation? How can he possibly be ready after a short tenure at best. Even with counselors and advisors it is going to be a challenge. My thoughts after listening to the audio is Bob is still pulling some strings in a way they don’t see. There are never enough questions you can ask but who are you going to be able to ask? They sound like they are barely coping though trying their best. It is a system many believe the Lord is changing. If it ever was right to have a Celebrity Pastor King it isn’t now! How else can He get our attention except through situations such as these. As with Saul the Lord told the people You wanted a King – you’ve got one! Now deal with it! I’m praying for the people there who don’t know what just happened and may be swept away again by another one if they are not careful.

  240. I’m way tired, so this will be brief.

    I just want to thank all of you who have chosen to minister to each other and the community here.
    Blessings on all the new folks who have contributed and to our vets who have been here to help.
    Good work all the way around…

  241. S Miller,
    It is for this reason I am reluctant to join another church. It’s not going to be any different somewhere else. Institutional church is become like our own government, so big that it needlessly takes enormous amounts of money, manpower, and time to maintain it.

    It is not this way in other countries. I keep bringing this up because I am coming at this from an international perspective. If the Christians in other countries had just a small portion of what it takes to operate one of these big churches it would sustain them for years. But not here in America. Bigger is always better. We are constantly urged to bring our money to the storehouse, give our time to serve by passing out announcements, volunteer our time for the nursery, do this, do that! And we do it gladly because we feel it’s for the good of the kingdom and we think it is necessary. But it isn’t. It is only good and necessary for the institution. They need it to maintain this monstrosity and they need us to believe we need to do it.

    I have a friend that has gone to ccboise for years but lately she has been two-timing the church. She has been going to another local church on alternating weeks to get fed but because she is so committed to ccboise she still comes and serves when it’s her turn. Such commitment! Such love and hopeful loyalty. But the truth is what she does is just an insignificant drop in the enormous bucket it takes to operate ccboise. Just think if that same commitment and love was channeled for the kingdom of God! How would that change her life? How would that change the lives of people around? I feel like we are being used!

    The American institutional church is like a fancy 18 wheeler semi-truck loaded with all the goods and resources one could ever desire. Both tanks are filled with premium fuel. It is in high gear and at full throttle but sadly it sits atop a large patch of ice and barely inches forward. For all the fuel spent to make this big truck go the tires just spin in place.

    If our humble brothers and sisters around the world could see this they would be ashamed.

    There I go boiling over again.

  242. Tam – venting is a form of processing and although we all process differently it is better to feel your feelings and speak about them like you are doing rather than stuff them in the name of trying not to sound hurt or bitter. It seems like those that get it up and out heal faster as we have experienced having come from another church similar to this one before we arrived at CCB. And this BLOG seems like a relatively safe place to share how you really feel. There will always be that voice that tells you that you are bitter if your language isn’t filled with sweetness and misinterprets honest assessment of what is happening as unforgiveness. Yes we forgive but it’s a process and doesn’t happen over night. And we have to forgive the same thing often unlike the Lord who forgives fully the first time. But we work through the offense, not by glazing it over with platitudes, but by being honest with what the offense has done to us. And yes we move on from there but it’s sometime a slow journey. Being honest about how this is making you feel doesn’t mean you aren’t concerned about the Caldwell family or the church or that you can’t pray for them.

    I feel the same as you were saying @221. There are many like you who are disillusioned with the institutional church – my friend Sam @240 and me included – so much so that there has been a book written that is the result of a quantitative study by a Christian professor from the University of Colorado (Josh Packard Phd) and co-authored by one of his students (Ashleigh Hope) who both had a passion to find out what is going on causing this exodus which could no longer be ignored. Anyway, he is calling the people of this mass movement out of the IC “The Dones”. We aren’t done with Jesus and we are remaining strong in our faith but we are done with a system that has become increasingly broken. Pastor after pastor is falling into some kind of moral failure – sexual or financial – because this hierarchy model that gives too much power to one man and to one family is not producing the kind of good fruit that the Bible admonishes us to have. With all due respect to Dual Citizen, who is emersed in this system and speaks with what he truly believes is best, why should you need to get permission from a leader or assistant leader to be “sent out” from a group of people who barely know your name? We live in America and we still have the freedom to move about in freedom as indivuals and as Christians. Even Bob was known to say we are free to come and go as God leads and CCB would only be one of the churches we would be attending in our lifetime. He said this at a New to the Fellowship dinner. I did like that about him that he didn’t believe in church membership for that reason.

    The key now is to pray to find fellowship where the Lord leads you and that may be with just a few understanding friends who care for you enough to pray for you and your needs and the needs of your family. As my friend Sam often says the Lord wants us to grow up in all things and not remain children any longer. It’s time for His people to hear from Him and walk in discernment rather than by what one man is telling them to do. The walk of faith isn’t easy but the Lord promises to hold our hands as we trust Him.

    There is hope in the Lord who promises to lead us in the way we should go and counsel us with His eye upon us Ps 32:8. I could hear hope at the end of Bart’s story @232 – he and his family are standing strong in faith even after the bad treatment experienced at the hand of an insensitive and uncaring leadership. At least you could see through some of what was going on, Bart, by the time you came back and sadly saw the Bob show. We can certainly learn from these experiences even though they are so painful.

  243. P.s. We totally get the boiling over thing – we are trying to hold ourselves back!

  244. Exactly Tam! We so get where you are coming from and exactly what you are saying -we have begun to call it “The Industrial Church Complex” for want of a better term or the Corporate Church or IC – Institutional Church. Surely this can’t be what the Lord wants or had in mind. Unfortunately we are exporting this concept around the world. If anyone thinks we are only talking about Calvary Chapel they are mistaken. There are dozens of blogs from SGM Survivors to The Warburg Watch that have had the exact same comments and stream of thinking. The story of what happened at Mark Driscoll’s Church with his elders is amazing reading! It is obvious to anyone with spiritual eyes & a vague idea of the times we are living in that we are at a crossroads of ‘Church’ and what that means or stands for. For all the commenters who say we need to go and be taught somewhere I know where you are coming from and have said the same thing in the past. The issue is where is that happening exactly? Most churches are led by leaders who attend multiple church conferences led by other mega- church leaders. I attended many taught by some of the biggest leaders in the country as well as International Stars and you quickly see this is where the toxic germs are transferred. It so reminded me of my business days when you went to seminars and conferences and learned new strategies and ideas. I felt the same jealousy and competition and idol worship for the real stars who got to teach to the big audiences in the best time slots. Only the biggest and brightest were summoned for those events. It is about the numbers in these worlds and the ideas that are gleaned from those conference meetings are than translated to even the smallest churches. This is where satelite churches came into vogue, or care groups were sold as the solution to staying in control of huge groups. We saw the idea of putting ATM’s in the lobby for tithing tossed around and the coffee shop became a must have for all church lobbies. It would shock you where these trends are trending from. So yes Tam you are seeing something that should make all our blood boil and shake us up out of our complacency. When my eyes were opened to this the Lord also opened my eyes to why He often calls us out of our world to find Him again. You’re in good company with Moses and Paul and David. Jesus Himself is the greatest example of all – going against the trend and bucking the religious system because it had gotten stale and old.

  245. Wow J KELLER!
    You mean that these feelings I have about the system is an actual thing that someone wrote a book about?! What a relief! I thought I might be being one of “those guys,” you know what I mean?

    Thank you for those words of wisdom.

  246. You too, S MILLER.

    I’ll look into this stuff.

  247. Yes that was my reaction too! Like we aren’t alone in this after alll and there are others like us! We were taught very extensively at our former church against being a Lone Ranger and how important it is to be safely undercover or under authority and anyone who begs to differ – or question that – is a maverick potentially leading others astray. So it’s not like we were looking for this development in our walk. Later we realized it was cult-like training but it was sure hard to shake once we started thinking for ourselves. We didn’t want to repeat the same mistake we made at the church we had come from – giving too much esteem to the pastor and his family which I realized later was a form of idolatry and had to repent of that – so when we got to CCB even though Bob could have been idol material we knew we just couldn’t participate that way knowing what it did to our hearts before. But if you talk about that to people they think you are rebellious. Anyway, the book contains interviews with people who feel they are done with it all and how they got there. The authors don’t seem to have an agenda since they themselves are involved in their own churches but they felt the need to study this as sociologists. I would encourage anyone to read it who feels the church system is not working for them anymore. It’s only 143 page and you can get it on Amazon.com. Published in 2015

  248. Indeed, you are far from being alone! It’s a huge relief when you discover that!

    And you’re not the first ex-CCers to smell a rat. And my bet is that you won’t be the last.

    Below is a link to others with a similar experience to yours. Of course not all CCs are like this. Unfortunately, you got involved in one that was. God bless you on your sojourn.

    https://culteducation.com/group/857-calvary-chapel/3430-calvary-chapel-visitor-commentss.html

  249. J Keller, so you stay in the IC after knowing what you know. Why? Are you satisfied and equipped?

  250. I just read the article about Josh Packards book. Oh my goodness! I am a “Done!” That’s is exactly me! What do I do?!

  251. Wow, just read a Q&A with Josh Packard on Patheos. I am part of ‘The Dones’ as well. He had some good points.
    I don’t miss the music though.OK, I miss the music from about 15 years ago. Quieter.
    One of the things I realized about church that made it easier to be done, was that every Sunday I left church feeling like I hadn’t done enough.
    I hadn’t prayed enough, served enough, studied enough, evangelized enough, or gave enough. You work all week, putting up with all the world can throw at you, paying the bills, raising the kids, and then go to the one place where you hope to find peace only to be told you still haven’t done enough.
    I’m really beginning to believe that three of the most overlooked words in the Bible are: “It is finished!”

  252. Bart,
    Perhaps you might enjoy the word from Hebrews:

    “So then, there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God, for whoever has entered God’s rest has also rested from his works as God did from his.”

  253. Thank you Jean, I am going to hold on to that one.

  254. Praying for those in boise
    Bart
    Tam nal
    J keller
    S miller
    Oh no
    Alice
    Believer in boise
    Duel citizen
    Sad news
    Praying for you all we are sad for your loss and pain but happy to have you here

  255. Tam – no we left CCB in 2014 – my heart was only there for a few years after we left our former church that we served in for over 10 years – attended there 20 – our children were raised in that church. We attended CCB for 8-10 years I think. When we came to CCB we were so delighted with how different it was than our other church and like I mentioned before we admired how much Bob got done and how trendy he was in a good way. We called CCB the Good Church. But even so I didn’t have the stomach or even the leading of the Lord to get involved not wanting to repeat the former scenario. I did wonder what was wrong with me though – I stayed home on Sunday and watched Bob on TV at 9:30 but would go to church every other Sunday. I remember deciding I’m not going to fight this anymore and will not force anything. I was done with that method. It’s like forcing yourself to love someone out of obligation rather than truth. If I feel to go I will and if I need to stay home I will. When I did go to church I felt the need to sit in the foyer with my friend – I was a foyer person lol. We used to see Cathy sitting out there too sometimes. Was she a foyer person too we wondered? Anyway my husband still wanted to be part of a church like he was in our former church so he jumped right in and got about as close as you can be serving serving serving. (Even when 2 people are married their individual faith walk is an individual thing so we chose to give grace to each other during this time. Our children were grown so we didn’t have that factor to worry about like we would have if they were younger). My husband being up close did afford him the opportunity to observe. My friend reminded me he is in his own school. At first he celebrated the differences between the two leadership styles but as time passed he began to see striking similarities in how church is set up. Like you said it’s like a huge ocean liner or fuel tanker truck designed to fit the needs of the one in charge of it and the cost of keeping it going isn’t just financial. It dawned on us that this was the same model but the style was different. Hello. We liked Bobs style better but he was driven by the same motivations it was seeming. But how else is someone going to really know and this was not only my husbands school but ours as we looked on. Bob thought I was jaded and one time asked me why Christians like me become that way. Kind of ringing in my ears with this new development lol. In reiterating our former church experience – the money issues and such – he said ya but does it always have to go like that? Wasn’t able to answer that then but today I can say yes Bob in this system it does go like that. You are a tax exempt 501c3 and free to use church money in whatever way you want to. And the money is entrusted to the driver of the big ship by the faithful people who want to give to God. Don’t get me started.

    All that to say – finding that qualitative study – I accidentally said quantitative before – in the Church Refugee book really helped define where we are in relation to the church. It made us realize it’s ok to just meet in a small group with people you care for and care for you. My husband was especially appreciative of this sociological study having given his all to not only one but two churches in varying degrees respectively- he wanted to buy a case of them as gifts! Since we do want to stay in tune with Gods Word and not forsake the assembling we meet every Sunday we can with our friends and have seen so many answers to prayer for our families and in our various careers since we started praying for one another. We don’t exactly know what we are doing but the Lord has given us various study themes. The first one we did was The Story which is an overview of the Bible. Each week we did a chapter – there’s a workbook study guide. We thought it would be good for new Christians in case we led anyone to the Lord!

    If you ever want to go to coffee we are open but no pressure. Just want to be available in case you could use another friend or two. And let’s extend that invitation to anyone here in Boise reading who we can lend an ear to. Not trying to start a new cult church either although some may beg to differ. But in all honesty what has helped us the most in healing is having each other to process all this together with in freedom and no fear; venting and listening and researching and studying and going through the Bible at BSF on Wednesdays too so we stay in the Word in a methodical way that has helped us too. (Yes they meet in an IC but one of the rules is you can’t talk about or promote your church thankfully.) Yes we are discovering that you can meet as friends without becoming a 501c3 thank you!
    👀☕️✝️

  256. Reading some of the comments from those who were a part of CCB regarding a marked difference in Bob’s teaching enthusiasm and qualitative delivery, leads me to believe that this was going on for some time.

    I’m always amazed at how God’s people in a church setting like that are far more intuitive and discerning than they give themselves credit for. Yet, the system and structure so often inhibits them from being able to say anything.

    Not too mention the enormous pressure on the pastor to not be transparent about where is really at and what he is really going through.

  257. Folks, how ’bout some paragraph breaks? Huge blocks of text don’t work well on blogs.

  258. Xenia – there is some real out pouring of hearts taking place here, grammar rules can be overlooked 🤓

  259. Bart – that was how we felt when leaving our former church! I remember leaving feeling worse than when I came and it dawned on me this couldn’t be what the Lord meant when He told us to meet with each other. It wasn’t always like that but it became like that. Eventually it occurred hey I don’t have to live like this – I am living as an American in the land of the free home of the brave! I can choose! Looking back it was becoming the time to go – we each came to this on our own, by the way, in individual timing – no one was pressuring the other.

    I was always going through weird painful stuff trying to get myself in line with what I was supposed to be at that church and it was painful so I would periodically ask the Lord if we were to be there. It never was the best fit but there were obviously good things too or I couldn’t have stayed. But my husband and children saw me cry in pain more than once. The Lord used the music as a source of pain for me the most. I had died to myself over and over but through it all the Lord gave me a different way to be musical out of it – a window – and blessed me with that instead. I didn’t get much support from people in the church because it didn’t have anything to do with the church. The Lord used all of it but it doesn’t excuse any bad behavior experienced there. In my personal journey of forgiveness I remember that and it’s easier to let it go. I can also see more clearly, now that I am older, that I needed to grow as a musician and they wanted the best of the best. Yes only the best for them. Unless you were related to the pastor then it didn’t seem to matter as much. I would’ve never made it in the show it is now though in most churches of that style. To be fair and honest, I did develop as a singer there because of all the worship experience so like I said there were good things and I’m grateful they gave me a place to use my gift for as long as they did. When the Lord allowed them to shut the door on that I learned other things that I am grateful for. Like my friend says, we are always in school. Now I’m in a new one. Letting go of my music for different reasons but I am learning I can trust the Lord with the gift He gave and it’s up to Him with how to use it. Or whether I need to replace my piano with a big comfy chair for that corner of the room. I’m so totally aware I wouldn’t even have the music if it weren’t for Him giving it – my Reason to sing in the first place….

    I do miss worship with others – that intimate setting type but I don’t miss the hype and the frenzied high it became. I am so glad I don’t have to endure any rock star worship I hear about either with the light shows. Neither of the churches had rock star worship but I think the former one would have it if they could. What I did like about Calvary is they kept it simple.

    But in my school I think the Lord had to remove the worship completely so He could clean it out and as He puts it back in it is only about Him even just here in my living room with no one else but Him. I couldn’t even listen to worship for awhile but He has gently given me a few artists I can hear that seem pure in their sincerity. Not that I can judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart but He knows me and what I can take. Music is a very subjective personal thing – what works for one may not work for the other.

    Ok bye for now – it is snowing outside in Boise and beautifully white but I have errands👀

    Oh one last thought. My favorite Christmas cd this year is Unto Us by JJ Heller. Sweet and unassuming and captures the Spirit of Christmas in an endearing way. You can hear her on iMusic if you have an iPhone or Amazon Music too I think. I bought her Cd for two friends. Another I love is Christmas Worship Vol 2 by Paul Baloche – I had to buy that for myself and a friend too but you can hear it online as well. And with that I bid you farewell till later fellow Refugees (and those who are not refugees as well)
    🎄🎵☕️

  260. My mind is blown! It is all so clear to me now. J KELLER, thank you for sharing. All of this has really opened my eyes.

    I will consider taking you up on the coffee invitation after the New Year.

    To be honest I am scared. I love the Lord with my whole heart and I want to be a productive member of His kingdom. I want to bless Him with the fruit of my life because He deserves it. But now I feel really shakey and weak. I have lost all confidence in everything but God and His Word.

    Oh, God. Please lead me! Guide me through this mess. Be my teacher. Be my pastor. Be my worship leader…my friend. I have no place to go but to you. Don’t turn me away, I pray!

  261. Col46 it has nothing to do with grammar rules. If they want people to read what they have written, they need to break it up a bit. Most people will not read dense blocks of text.

  262. Tam – Isaiah 41.10, 42.10, 43.2, and 19 come to mind.

    Take comfort and Lord Bless you!

  263. Xenia – I am…and it is heart breaking

  264. while i understand what Xenia is saying about the paragraph thing, it’s so worth the effort to read these comments – they’ve given me much to think about as well as bringing up memories (i suspect the value their contents is what prompted the comment, eh Xenia?)…

    it must be difficult to edit when your heart is pouring out some of your deepest thots

  265. I read through all my comments and it really shows what a roller coaster I’ve been on.

    I cycled from sadness to anger. I showed brave determination then fear. I lashed out in desperation then finally came some revelation. What a crazy mind-bend!!

    If any ccboise readers can relate maybe this will comfort you:

    I was laying on the couch thinking over the type of things talked about in this thread. I lay there with this sad blank stare. I just couldn’t find a hopeful resolution to anything. After a long while I realized my eyes were fixed on this painting I have on my wall. In it is this tall lighthouse perched on a precipice overlooking a stormy sea. The sky black with these huge ominous clouds.

    The Lord spoke to my heart and said “the church (Institutional church) is the lighthouse. A building built by man, however it does serve a purpose. It warns passing ships of dangerous rocks. Don’t despise the lighthouse, it does what they made it to do. But, I am not the lighthouse. Look out at sea.”
    In the painting, out in the midst of these dark clouds and black water is a place where light breaks through the clouds. It lights up a small patch of the water below with a beautiful golden light. The place where the light touches the sea is at peace, the water many beautiful shades of blue. The Lord spoke to my heart again and said “There I am! Come to me!”

    I thought “oh lord I WILL come to you … but that water looks awfully dangerous. It’s probably cold too. I’m not a good swimmer. What about sharks?!” Like my comments in this thread I started by making a bold proclamation “I WILL come to you!” but my heart shrank back in fear. Just then in a beautiful moment of blessed imagination I saw myself in the bow of an old wooden row boat as it bravely tacked into the oncoming waves, away from the shore where the lighthouse stood. I was headed directly towards the patch of light. It was exhilarating as the boat breached these massive waves. I looked back to see the strong arms of my Lord firmly on the oars of this old boat propelling us forward.

    We are not alone. He is with us. Go to Him!

  266. As a family we attended ccboise for several years. Our daughter is friends with many of the youth pastors and went to ccbibleschool in murrietta.

    The Caldwell family is loving and wonderful, Kathy is a great mother and GMom.
    Bob was a spirt filled paster, great father, GPa and had a growing church, and school. We watched as it changed over time, with eagle, kuna, meridian all becoming great church bodies. Allowing families to have a neighborhood home church.

    Overtime ccbosie had become kind of hip, Bob was on TV, traveling to groups in Europe and India, the church had a great international presence. Bob was a lead at the Sr. Pastors conference. Many of the young plasters seeked Bobs council and wisdom.

    This sin has had and will have great consequences for a mans life of work. I don’t know what the lord will do with this but pray for families involved and troubled with this sin.

    I will say that the woman’s name doesn’t need to be mentioned, but there is too much speculation and gossip. Since this happened years ago and now is coming out many are looking and questioning a large cross section of his life.

    if you have known Bob, he is often regarded in glowing terms from the works he has done for the lord. But now knowing that this is true, it shakes me. Any man can be tempted and now 40 some years of work are all in turmoil, lives, missions etc. I heard pastors fall from sin but, now I know that it can happen to anyone

    Trust in the Lord with all your heart
    and lean not on your own understanding;
    in all your ways submit to him,
    and he will make your paths straight.

  267. a question: which is less pleasing to the Lord, the faithful servant who, for a variety of reasons messes up his personal life (and in doing so creates collateral damage) or the personality folk amassing great 5 figure personal wealth off of “performing” for Jesus in front of the cameras? … not talking about the pastors of large churches’ perhaps too large salaries, but rather those who plead, “send in your $$s – any amount will help – so we can keep spreading the gospel” – a gospel which seems to center around how good and talented they are…
    as a Christian i think that i’d rather face the Lord having committed adultery than as one having a 5 figure personal bank account built off of “tithes and offerings,” i think … thinking … thinking…

  268. Reading all these comments from folks from CCB, it reminds me of a time when we had the same thoughts…before we attended CCCM.

    Thank you all for sharing your thoughts here with us all…it has given me much to remember and re-consider.

  269. Sorry I fell so far behind in this discussion…

    JM, post #130 supports my point about exploring the possible need for just outing all of the truth and not hiding any of it. Privacy and cover up, synonymous. Healing begins after the flushing of a wound.

    But then I read “Believer in Boise’s” post #225 which addressed my earlier desire for a discussion about outing all the players, namely the other side of this affair. I was wrongfully making the mistress a part of Bob’s full truth and part of a cover up. Pleased re-read that if necessary before blasting me with non-thought through statements. But that’s why I called for a discussion, not a “hanging”.

    I wasn’t thinking about whether the mistress had come forth and confessed on her own. I guess the idea behind Biblical correction is that each party owns their own junk. So if one party chooses to cover up, they need to be approached by two and asked to repent, and then make it public. Did she come forth and repent?

    So PBC sinned and he chose to repent publicly, she sinned… if she did repent good, if not… where do we stand on this Biblicly in terms of Church discipline? We keep kicking around King Dave as an example and yet we all know who Bathsheeba is. Just curious the comparrison here doesn’t seem to serve. If Bathsheeba had refused King Dave what might have happened to her or her family? King David did have her husband killed, so maybe we can say she is cleared for her side of the affair, but then again others have chosen to risk their lives to obey God in scripture, maybe she was guilty in her own way? I don’t think the Bible is clear on this. Bob, I’m guessing didn’t threaten anyone and make them have an affair with him so I’m guessing she is as guilty as he, and yet she gets a pass? Again, this is not for my own curiosity, I would prefer not to know who she is unless it is for her good, the churches good, the will of the Holy Spirit etc. It just seems as we aim our attention at PBC, she should get equal attention. Thus my name on this post, why just apply Biblical discipline to one party. To anyone’s knowlege has she repented, been asked to step down, under any kind of church discipline or was PBC spell to strong and it’s just all his fault? How do we divide this?

    S Miller Your post #240 IS EXACTLY what I’m asking about, Biblical procedure followed in love, without a bunch of crying about keeping anything private because it makes someone else uncomfortable. In other words, a procedure that would apply to anyone.

    Let me state again, after being involved and employed at CC off and on for over 20 years, I have not lost any respect for PBC. Because I never gave him the type of respect that made him anything more than a friend, an older Christian who has gone before me. He’s never been my god, or super pastor. He’s a guy WITH some pretty good hang-ups which has made me like him better. He and I have disagreed massively on some minor things, and I left serving under him years ago because of his leadership style and yet we bring our family there on Sundays still after serving at another church for his messages.
    I’m not applauding his sins, I’m just not as let down as some. I think he has always been a sincere believer and disciple of Christ, and I bet he has not always done it “right”. Sheesh, who could for 40 years of ministry? And now this is done, let’s do what the Bible says. Follow up, restore if possible, admonish correctly. Heal, restore trust among new or weaker believers. Let’s do it in love, not cover up like Adam or Dave.

    I’m deeply upset at how this affects the families, the flock, etc. And my hope is in the Lord to do what Tucker said, use this as an awesome message and example of God’s grace. In addition to the grace, WE have some work to do in terms of governing our church bodies. We need to rightly divide the word and apply it the best we can.

    I finally heard the letter/sermon. Let them continue on their course of action, keep all in prayer, support one another like this blog allows.

    Bart, you and I are long time friends and have had many discussion about your journey’s in the CC network. I’m sorry brother if this has added to your wounds, let’s grab lunch together soon. So much to digest here still, while I’m not upset with any person (him or her) it’s still a lot to process.

  270. Now my turn to catch up on this snowy Christmas eve in Boise.

    J Keller #256 – my wife and I have talked about wanting to meet with other like minded believers (done with the IC) but doing so in a way that doesn’t feel like we’re doing ‘church’ or a ‘home fellowship’. You know, the standard agenda: a couple of worship songs, a prayer and then a message or study, then a round robin of prayer requests, then 20 minutes of prayer for our list, a couple more songs, and then go home. I’m not saying there is anything wrong with that, I think we crave something more organic and fluid, you know kind of like real life.

    Tam Nal #266 – I knew a guy years ago that had a t-shirt that said: “Don’t go to Church – Be the Church”.

    Sad Today #267 – This happened years ago! What! I haven’t listened to the audio of the sermon, but I was under the impression this was a recent thing. How many years ago did this happen?

    Drawing #270 – This hasn’t added to my wounds, just brought back memories and feelings. I don’t know if I’ll ever be rid of the memories of hurt and betrayal this side of heaven, it’s just not fun when they resurface. So I am not reeling or feeling betrayed by Bob. I haven’t had any skin in the game in so long that I almost feel like an outsider looking in. Do you have my contact info? If so let’s get together.

    Some of my fondest memories of CCB were before the move to the current location, while we were still in that little church on Longmont. It was there that the church first started their Saturday evening services. Both Sunday services were packed and we had a lot of HP and Micron shift workers that a Saturday night service would be beneficial. So my wife and I started attending Saturday night. Those first few months were great. Not many showed up and we met in the fellowship hall in the basement. Bob showed up in jeans, a white t-shirt and flip flops. We were all seated around tables and chairs and when Bob stood at the podium he looked around and said this isn’t going to work. He came down to a table and we all gathered around. For several months it was like having a small Bible study with Bob. Others heard about it and next thing we know we’re up in the sanctuary and back to a regular church service.
    I miss that. It was real and personal and you shared it with others.

    I would like to meet the Boise people on here. I probably don’t know most of you, except Drawing (can’t figure out who you are yet).

    Merry Christmas everyone!
    Oh and – GO HAWKS!

  271. I’m going to address the situation regarding the other side of this affair briefly,then be out for the weekend.
    Based on the information I have, I don’t believe it would serve any purpose to identify the woman involved.
    This was a complex situation that played out over an extended period of time and the dynamics involved are not simple.
    To this point, I believe the church has handled a very difficult situation well…

  272. Thank you Dusty for the prayer for the people in Boise, especially those close to the situation and may have questions that are shaking their faith. May they get to the other side of this stronger as mature Christians as they lean on Jesus as the true rock of refuge and may He be their comfort in this time of pain.

    Please pray for the entire Treasure Valley, anyone who gave consideration to Jesus because of Bob’s voice on TV, the radio and the CCB website, who could now consider Christianity as just another religion that holds no power. I guess we can trust that if the Lord was drawing a person through one voice, He will continue to draw that person; after all God is not surprised by this.

  273. Xenia,

    My apologies for the big blocks of texts. If I have more to say I will make an effort to break the paragraphs up a bit. I can see what you mean because I will skim a big paragraph to see if the subject matter applies to me or not. If it does, I read the whole thing. But, if the discussion is between two or three people and I’m not involved in it and I don’t understand it, like Orthodoxy for instance, I move on. But I do that even if it is a short paragraph too if I’m not interested in the subject.

    Anyway, point taken.

  274. Michael,

    I disagree with you, sin is sin and adultery is complex and the dynamics are never simple it is sin. Many sisters/women are affected by this and there were 2 not just 1 involved. There is no hate towards her but she needs to ask forgiveness. As # 267 shared there is gossip and speculation. There should not be any, there needs to be complete openness and sincere repentance. We do not need details we need healing. The church has a great responsibility now even more so in protecting women in leadership/ministry so that this does not ever happen again.

  275. Tam @261 Yes let’s do that after the new year. How do we do this without making our contact info public? Funny you cried out to the Lord to be your pastor – I finally came to that too.

    Bart@271 I’m borrowing your catch up format. Would like to meet you and your wife too sometime. So let’s also do coffee after the new year.

    SadToday@267 Feeling for you in all of this. It is indeed a shaking experience to have to adjust one’s perception of someone you have trusted. Like Bob said in the word Tucker read it was a sacred trust. But the Lord won’t betray that ever and more than ever our sacred trust must belong to Him alone. That scripture comes to mind that anything that can be shaken will be shaken and this must be the season for that in the church universal. The good news is that which remains intact i.e. whatever God allows to remain He put there in us in the first place. He who began a good work in each of us, including Bob, is faithful to complete that work.

    Michael @241 and all the other kind people here – thank you for so graciously giving us, the Boise people, a place to process and discuss and meet each other.

    Have a merry Christmas everyone! May Jesus be very real and close as we celebrate His birth and His gift of redemption that He planned from the beginning!

  276. Thank you J Keller for your closing comment, it is PERFECT. Merry Christmas everyone.

  277. JM, shame on you for spreading such lies, like Pastor Chuck having committed adultery. You better repent if you don’t want to be held accountable by God Almighty for your horrible lies. That is so evil of you, the man is dead and can’t defend himself.

  278. Christa:

    I believe JM was referring to the possibility Chuck Smith covered up the adultery of another person…not that HE, himself, committed it.

  279. Christa,

    It’s not a lie and it’s about the worst kept secret in CC.

  280. I stand corrected, then…and this is the first I’ve ever heard anything like this!

  281. Michael
    Can you clarify the worst kept secret in CC? Are you confirming it is about Chuck Smith or some other International minister – there have been comments on both in this thread.

    As I told my good friend who was on staff for years – it is very freeing when you understand you don’t need to cover for them any longer. At our former church they used a book written by John Bevere titled “Undercover”. We also had to attend a seminar – approximately 8 hours on a Saturday mandated. We also were required to fill in notebooks and sign a pledge to the church and Pastor at the end of it if you were going to be a leader in the church.

    If you haven’t heard of of it or attended one it is fascinating cult- style organizational school to get people in line by whip. It basically uses the “Moses Model’ as the basis for why you are to be submitted under your leader in lock-step. If you do not submit something bad will happen to you like MIriam. You are not to ask questions, rock the boat or ever ever question the leader. It was extreme and it was the answer to a getting your people in line to submit with a fear based theory of scriptures. When people asked questions about the seminar they were quickly labeled as not following the pastor, rebels or lone ranger Christians. This is for real in this day and age in the Treasure Valley.

    So when we eventually left there and started attending CCBoise we were so deceived by the progressive looking style of Bob and the pastors wearing matching goatees that we had no idea we were under another Moses Model of leadership. As I told my friends who were feeling whipped from CCB – don’t feel bad it fooled us too! It was an even more subtle form of abuse as it was undetectable from the radio or tv ministry – much like methane gas.

    So I adopted the mantra that there is no question you can’t ask! The test is not so much in getting an answer that is ‘right’ whether it be on finances or who is really in power or control. This will quickly reveal if you have challenges, road block or chairs thrown in your path like in a chase scene out of a movie- something is wrong. If you get the runaround on any question and feel a check in your spirit – as in that doesn’t seem right than that is your answer that things are being hidden.

    It has taken years for them to get deeply held belief out of them. They don’t have to cover for Bob or leadership decisions any longer even if you were part of ‘making them happen.’ That is the biggest turning point a believer can make because you are no longer enabling the systems of lies or cover ups. You are accountable to God alone. If anyone asks you to go against that you have an issue no matter how sweet the information is layed out or what fear based lie you are being threatened with.

    The churches who use the 501c3 Status have agreed as a non-profit who doesn’t pay taxes in America that they will freely disclose public records and anyone should have information publicly as to who is really on their board, their true budget – and other information.

    I have learned how to access legal information & have taught others about how to find records online with the State Repository to see who actually owns your church or who is on board that controls it. Many nice Christians are under the delusion and I say that with sadness that the Elders are running the church or have a vote or say on the budget or major decisions. They are confusing that with a Congregational Style of Church where every member has a vote and you vote on the Elders or Deacon Board. That is very rare today!

    Now your independent style church is just that – Independent from accountabiity. It is purposely set up that way so the congregation can no longer gain control or overtake or fire the Pastor. There is a legal filing of who is on the real Board of Directors. Any lawyer will confirm this. Until we grow up and ask more questions we may never know the truth the sets us free.

    It is interesting how many churches have a Board with 3 member on it as in the Senior Pastor – his wife and maybe a child or son in law. So do you know who is or has been on the board of CCBoise. Ready set go! Let us know what you find. It will be interesting!

  282. Unfortunately I remember the John Bevere Undercover day-long seminars only too well. They hosted it 2 or 3 times. On one of the weekends we were on a romantic getaway for our anniversary and interrupted by a phone call from the pastor asking us to come back and attend because of how it would look to others if one of the leaders wasn’t in attendance. It would appear we weren’t “undercover”. My husband stuck to his guns and we stayed but it cast a shadow on our celebration. Part of our school though – these types of things add up and finally tell you you are in a wacworld of woo woo.

    My husband has a particular loathing for the teachings of John Bevere – just mention that book and his eyes start twitching. There is another one called The Bait of Satan which could be where the Christian community embraced the legalistic doctrine that you aren’t allowed to feel your feelings when you are offended and can’t say anything unless it’s positive. He takes what the Bible admonishes on offenses and forgiveness but removes the human element from how to deal with bad behavior.

  283. Good memories J Keller or Exhibit A. This is case building to teach and show other Christians to watch for these signs. We know you did not have ‘Undercover Seminars” at Calvary but it was done much the same. When you can step back and review what happened to you so you weren’t allowed to ask questions or too beat down to do it you start to understand the psychological implications.

    Cult-like thinking or teaching doesn’t just happen at the big name cults! It is more subtle than that these days.

    Once again what happened to Chuck if covered up is pivotal! Thats what led to al lot this if true and if covered up by his leadership over the years. Who can see that? Its the canary in the coal mine!

  284. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone

  285. Let him without a stone throw Cynthia.

  286. No, that’s not what Cynthia is saying, don’t be rude. She’s saying we all have sin, we should all get stoned.

  287. That verse is continually taken out of context and misapplied in these situations.

    The reality is that there are different biblical standards to occupy the office of the pastor.
    They have been flagrantly broken in this situation.
    We’re not talking about “everyones” sins, we’re speaking specifically of this mans sin.

    That is not “stone throwing” and I’m weary of the pious acting like it is.

  288. DrawingintheSand,

    It sure seems to me that Cynthia was basically saying “Because none of us has no sin, let’s not expose Pastor Chucks sin (if there is one),” by her comment.

    This would, if the case, imply a desire to hide truth that needs to be exposed and could well be critical to understanding some of the “tangles” of the system.

  289. DrawingintheSand,

    It sure seems to me that Cynthia was basically saying “Because none of us has no sin, let’s not expose Pastor Chucks sin (if there is one),” by her comment.

    This would, if the case, imply a desire to hide truth that needs to be exposed and could well be critical to understanding some of the root issues/problems of the system.

  290. crud…sorry for double post…internet is horribly slow right now.

  291. Stephen, I wasn’t making a real comment. Just a tongue in cheek joke about getting stoned, which I really do not support, just throwing a little humor out there!

  292. i think i see something a little clearer about throwing stones today… the point is not one of not dealing with sin, rather it is addressing attitude … if one’s heart is not breaking when a situation such as the topic here on the thread comes to light, if one has an “aha, gotcha and now we’re going to shame you!” attitude then that stone condemns the one who hurls it at the sinner…

  293. Was away. Much to catch up on. Somehow landed on #287 first. Michael, you made me laugh so hard that I am seeking to invest in Depends. Wish others could divide this issue properly. Many of us are tired of being falsely accused of a personal harshness. All you are showing is a fidelity to what the Bible actually says about this sort of situation. You are correct.

  294. I for one have been more contemplative in my comments about how we should go about addressing church discipline, which truths should be shared, what is considered biblical fairness in the interest of 1. Being Biblicly obedient to the best of our ability, 2. Restoring whatever can be restored, and 3. How to build better accountability around any model. I’m not interested in stones. In fact, let’s be clear. We’re not looking to kill anyone by any method. Addressing your attitude, my attitude, and everyone else’s as we deal with this tragedy seems like a distraction to me and does not the serve the purpose of most of this conversation. I know some have expressed anger as they deal with their own shock, I know I lean in one direction in terms of coming forth with more truth while lean the other way in terms of providing more discretion. Hopefully none of us are out here casting stones in either direction but are seeking wisdom to exercise love.

    And to those who wish to cast stones… I can’t judge you either sometimes processing grief includes making comments on a blog… a far cry from casting a real stone or wanting someone to die over their sin. This is a safe place (or so it seems) to greeve, process, share and gain support without needless shame being hurled, or names being called. I don’t see a mob forming. That’s why I made a little joke earlier, to lighten the heavy mood. Peace and love all!

  295. There’s a word for guys like Bob who preach one thing and then secretly do the very opposite.

  296. I have monitored many Christian blogs in the years since I felt the Lord nudge me to go to the internet -yes surprising but true! He was about to show me how to judge or rightly divide truth from a lie. I didn’t learn it by one article or series of books I learned and am still in a school of learning how to think like a Christian.

    Aren’t we admonished ‘do not be deceived.’ ?. How about not being easily deceived. What this situation and countless others are revealing in this day of mega-church madness is that this paradigm of letting one man lead with little to no accountability is not working. As Dr. Phil used to say ‘how’s that working for you?’ Its not.

    When I was fresh out of a cult-style church I went searching various blogs/ websites and I want to tell you it always without exception hits on this exact topic. Usually someone throws scriptures at all the bloggers or writers and tells them to disperse from asking questions. I know it looks messy here but that is how we learn to think again. Think of it like a debate team.

    Critical thinking taught in Universities and I believe through any of Paul’s writing is the art of asking questions in order to find answers. Law Students are taught to ask questions in order to take in information and arrive at the truth that often leads to a verdict. They will be forced to see and interpret all angles before its through.

    It is more than ok to have these discussions of the situation here and rightly divide the truth from the lies. It is even a Biblical mandate from the Lord to do so. How will we not be deceived? When I was a child I spoke and reasoned like a child. I cannot any longer go back to being a naive Christian and let others do the thinking for me. That is the gold you glean from these discussions and these situations.

    Just today I had a discussion with my children about what judgement is and what it is not. That could be a long and interesting thread alone. These forums may be the first place and time many Christians have gone up to bat with other thinking Christians to learn how to have an intelligent and not just emotional discussion.

    We may agree to disagree but I am encouraged about the Body of Christ when we are having the discussion at all. Lets take the dysfunction out of the Church by reasoning together.

  297. DrawingintheSand@292 Your comment made me laugh – much needed after the drive-by comment @285. When I saw it earlier I wanted to ask her which of the 284 previous comments on the thread was she referring to – lol.

    S Miller @297 When the Lord said “Come let us reason together” He must have been longing for a lively discussion! One of the many ways we are created in His image! It has just occurred to me that He likes a good debate!

    It’s interesting how many Christians have a negative connotation of the term critical thinking having no idea it’s a concept in how to come to truth. It’s ok to say rightly divide the word of God because it’s a scriptural term, but to use the phrase critical thinking throws those those who think it wrong to speak up and disagree…

  298. JKeller – how right you are. I always hesitate to use the phrase ‘Critical Thinking’ although it is taught in every College in the country! Well meaning Christians of which I was one often take it to mean we are being critical by asking questions. Blogs may be critical and as I said before it is not always pretty any more than a family discussion about politics may be these days – especially if you had to read a script of it. We can ‘learn’ to discuss and reason together one line at a time here.

    Funny how I think the Lord likes and loves the art of discussion as in the Book of Job. He could have shortened it to the last Chapters 38-42 where the answers are all found in how you are to see trials and think about the Lord’s overall scheme and plan. Instead He has you read through a complete discourse of Job’s friends conversation before you get to the main point He is teaching!

    Yeshiva – a Jewish School has traditionally used the question/discussion method to get their students to learn to think and to discuss. They come to truth by having to use their minds to learn the facts and than discuss and defend a position. How are we ever going to learn to do that by sitting in a service week after week and being spoon fed information and stories with sugar coated announcements.

    Maybe we should have debating teams and see what truth we discover by being able to give an answer for what you believe.

    I never wanted to debate or discuss these topics before I was taken through the flood because I wasn’t confident of how to approach it. Experiences like this latest scandal has helped me get up to the front line one more time and be able to give a reason for what I truly believe.

    For that I’m truly thankful and for all the others ones in the past. Light finally dawns – so this is the school you have me in Lord! You are obviously in it too and all other thinking Christians on this blog.

  299. SMiller –

    I am in wholehearted agreement with your comment at 299. Not that we could ever win a debate with God but He would certainly lead a rousing discussion if we were in Yeshiva school with Him.

    And yes, thank God for blogs like this one and others we have found so helpful over the years. It’s been an education that’s for sure, in discovering and honing our individual voices and in helping us see we aren’t alone in what we have gone through and what we have come to.

  300. The failing degree of spiritual discernment of a well established body although typical is still mind boggling to me. If one study’s the works of Christians such as A W Tozer or further back, Andrew Murray, The Spiritual Life. It becomes evident the born again men have become so intellectually centered that the inspired scriptures are merely a framework for systematic theology without much divine inspiration at all. Though language is our primary tool of communication, it is a primary tool of miscommunication. As the intellect is our primary tool of perception, it is the primary tool of wrong perception. There is a greater avenue of perception called the enlightened heart. Our heart has the potential to know Truth if we wait on Him. Miracles and biblical experiences that we wrestle with lurk beyond our ability to appreciate and fully believe due to the intellectual kingdom our prayerless lives have become confined to. The scripture is God’s data base but it is not Him or deity. He is available but not on demand like most of our technology. We are too busy to spend time in the Truth and use scripture rather than allow it to transform us. Therefore we live so carnally we look and sound like the world except when we enter our religious therapy country clubs.
    I fellowshipped at a CC most of 20 years and contended for the spiritual to the point of resistance and near disfellowship. The response to why we don’t experience the reality of the Holy Spirit comparable to scripture during a 16 week study on the Holy Spirit was, He is working all the time but we aren’t necessarily aware of it. How true yet how wrong!
    We can normalize everything to our intellectual kingdom or pay the price to truly know Him in His kingdom.
    MANY will claim to have DONE things in His name and discover they He never knew Them and they likewise never truly knew Him.
    I’m not pointing out who knows Him or not, just pointing out that high degrees of association with scripture do not necessarily translate to a relationship with Him. Understanding is way over rated regarding an inspired book of recorded experiences.
    The foundations are being shaken that He might be worshipped in Spirit and Truth even now. There is forgiveness and grace so far as it brings glory to Him. All else is cheap grace and has no value in His Kingdom.

  301. As a former attender (no membership at a Calvary Chapels), and former staffer, the scripture that comes to mind regarding this situation is Proverbs 2:6-11. It speaks of Gods provision for the saints, wisdom, knowledge, understanding, guarding the just, discretion to preserve us, delivering us from the way of evil.

    Many have commented on what the appearance of Bob Caldwell was, versus the reality. Reality was that he was the poster child for chaos, controlling, “what do people think of me”, loose canon human. The appearance that he created by having control of the narrative from the pulpit as well as the king of the staff was that he was God centered, prayed more that any other human in history, was as spiritual as they come, “I only care what God thinks of me” illusion. He challenged those who called out his hypocrisy at every turn, and became a spiritual mafia godfather, sending out spiritual hit-men that rebuked and purged those folks from the “mixed multitde”. They had yet to wake up the the absurdity of the whole system created at Calvary Chapel Boise. Tucker will come to understand over time and with much counsel, by the grace of God, how much chaos and distortion Bob Caldwell, an addict, has wrought in the lives of thousands. I am praying for him, his possee and his heart. I am praying for Cathy Caldwells’ heart, mind, and future. Her future is far better now than it was until now. Because the truth will set her free. Pray for Tucker to understand that any thoughts that the sheep can only handle what he thinks is “enough” info is deadly. Let the chemo, radiation and surgery begin at Calvary Chapel Boise, and all Moses Model Christian churches. Because Moses never made into the promised land on earth……

  302. Wow -excellent thoughts CTruth! As someone who probably worked close to him and on the inside you surely know and saw more than most. It can be very different on Monday -Friday than it appears on Sunday.

    I love your word pictures – from purging folks from a ‘mixed multitude’ which shows what happens to those who do ask questions about the chaos. They are cast out of the camp! It can be done in such a way that you are begging to leave when you realize you are being frozen out.

    Yes from an insider who wants to walk through the timeline with Tucker because you and other people who were there from the early days have seen the patterns that led up to this moment. I wonder when we will stop re-creating this same situation of a one man show? How many more of these messes will Christians have to endure before we see that it’s not working out very well to have 0 accountability? A mega church celebrity world was surely not what the Lord wanted.

    I agree that I hope Tucker can trust the people to hear and see the truth of what led to this and how exactly are they going to create a new system? I heard him today on the radio singing the praises of what was done in India in such a lyrical -almost soothing way. I know he is probably still in an ideal state of a high from being chosen to take over the mantle of this church. To go from nothing to being the head of one of largest mega -churches in Boise with an International Outreach is exciting for him.

    I wish he get together with Joshua Harris – who was given a mega -church in Washington, DC – Covenant LIfe formerly Soverign Grace Ministries. . He was the Senior Pastors chosen son who was given the reins or so it seemed. Than the crisis hit and he found he was neither equipped or trained to deal with CJ Mahaney’s past cover-ups of abuse of children that happened there. Joshua is now attending seminary in Canada. He was the author of “I Kissed Dating Good-bye’ a huge seller. He found out he needed to go back to square one and get trained. This is from a man who was raised in a Home School family and promoted it in their church endlessly.

    I hoped we would learn from that situation but it is happening here once again. As Harris said he had no idea what was going to be expected from him as a young man groomed for the job by the pre-decessor. Isn’t it interesting that these leaders choose very young, inexperienced men to take over their role that no one else can fill? The implications there could fill another thread.

    You have much to say CTruth and I can see this is only the beginning of what you have to share! Good job and welcome to the ministry of helping others via the internet.

  303. CTruth and SMiller… wow, agreed. I too used to work there. We all probably know each other.

    SMiller you said “They are cast out of the camp! It can be done in such a way that you are begging to leave when you realize you are being frozen out.” Not only did I witness that happen to may staff members over an 18 year period, but it happened to me! There was no challenging Bob… and yet I didn’t see it that way, I felt that I “chose” to leave, but in truth, I too was becoming an older male and frozen out. I could name a bunch of names of others who actually said it was that way for them and now they run churches, colleges, orphanages, and other large ministries. I myself was no longer easily influenced, and after serving at another church for about 5 years, I came back to go through the School of Ministry there and wow! No older staff except for one or two yes men, it really messed with my head, it really caused me to distance myself although looking back I only now see why. And yet it was something my wife and I spoke about several times. No older bulls around to ballance Bob out, and then Tucker was appointed, I know Tucker pretty well and I was happy at the time of his appointment but at the same time… wow, what a major challenge that really requires experience, not just humility, training would be a mega bonus, but I’m not sure that exists? Seminary doesn’t prepare one for running a large organization i wouldn’t think (I could be wrong). Does college prepare graduates to run HP or Micron? Anyway, good observations…

  304. #301

    Always good to see someone Platonizing the faith — the intellect is suspect and inferior, but our spirits aren’t, I guess. This is what can lead to cultism. God gave us our minds to discern and ponder.

    Not surprised in the least that you spent 20+ years at a CC. Looks like you were even too spiritual for them!

    Wasn’t part of Jesus’s commandment to love God and others with all our heart, soul, AND mind?

  305. C Truth @302 very good point that Moses never made it into the promised land. Even though he shared a relationship with God like none other mortal he was still subject to God’s standard of holiness and that God is holiness. We learn from that part of Moses’ life what God expects in a relationship with Him.

    Why would we even want or need the Moses model when Jesus became our model? These men who have patterned their ministries after Moses’s unique one are drawn to the appeal of one man hearing from God while the rest of the believers in their spheres wait with baited breath the word from God given to them. That would really appeal to their ego – the carnal man – and give them a sense of spiritual pride. Something we aren’t supposed to indulge in.

    Why would the people who are their followers even need the Holy Spirit if these pastors were the only ones to hear from God?

    Then factor in that the people themselves who give their allegiance to their own particular Moses are doing so because they want someone to tell them what to do and how to do it. I’m not just pointing the finger at others because I did the same thing thinking I was being obedient to God by submitting to my own pastor/king/authority – or I tried to even if I failed at it because it wasn’t working. So is it because we aren’t willing to do the “work” of believing, as the Bible instructs, waiting on God – trusting in faith – being led by the Holy Spirit ourselves every day? Why else would we hand over our spiritual position in Christ and our individual inheritance as a son or daughter in Him to someone else?

    The authoritarian leaders become pumped up with an overblown sense of worth. If they have issues from a dysfunctional past they don’t think they need to go to counseling and do the “work” of inner healing like someone in their congregation with the same plight would need to do. What if they are a child of an alcoholic, let’s say, as Bob is?

  306. DrawingInTheSand – I’m so glad you shared your story! I’m sure you saw and learned a
    lot and have many more insights you and your wife could both share from your experience there. We want to hear it. Now isn’t that a switch? After years of hearing the same stories over and over again we were parched and dry and wanted to yell ‘we each have important stories to share from our lives too Bob!” Not just you!

    In fact we didn’t want to just yell this back at him in between his sips of water, but to all the mega church world wannabes. We all have a ministry and we have a story to tell. Its called our testimony and it has power to help others.

    In fact that’s what we’re doing here on blogs. There is no place in this paradigm for anyone other than the ‘lead pastor’ – the term that is trending now – to allow others to speak. We were painfully aware at at our former church that if someone started to get the spotlight on them they better refer in deference to the Senior Pastor or his family. Almost every prayer service ended up in prayer for them to go global – up to a new level and to be known around the world! I wish I was kidding!

    I agree totally that going to Seminary will not give someone experience any more than sending someone off to college prepares you to be President of a Company once you attain a diploma. The Joshua Harris story is one of the casualties of this system. I have close friends who attended there through all the ups and downs of being totally in love with their church and pastors to having been decimated and wondering what to do next on the other side of the scandal there.

    Sovereign Grace Ministries -is a perfect textbook example of what can happen. Joshua wrote a book that basically said you should be married to your church. It was a Covenant Relationship as close as marriage. My friends would have had to get permission to leave that church and move or relocate – literally. Well after everything blew up it was Joshua who suddenly decided to sell his huge house and move to Canada – under the auspices of going to Seminary. There is probably a book that will come out of his 18 month schooling of what he’s learned and then he can go on a book tour – right back into another kind of ministry. It’s all he’s ever known professionally, which is another issue of having professional pastors in the pulpit.

    CJ Mahaney also left the area and and took the entire church organization to Louisville, Kentucky along with all the funds as in millions of dollars of tithe money. Just think what would have happened if Chuck Smith had relocated Calvary Chapel headquarters to New York and taken all the $$$ coffers with him. This did happen and was written about in detail in the Washington Post – but do other Christians or Churches see or know of this current example? He was called one of the “Big Dogs” in the reformed church world.

    I’m afraid the warning signs are all around us and we just keep pressing the reset button and allow the next Mega Church Pastor to choose his own successor with little to no say from any experienced Pastors/Elders around him. They don’t want anyone else’s opinions because control might be lost.

    I have been wanting to do a video of the Pastor going into the 5th Grade Classroom and choosing his newest set of elders. They keep getting younger and more inexperienced for a reason.

    So tell your story -we care and we’re listening!

  307. S Miller and DrawingInTheSand – when you mention being cast out of the camp – frozen out – phased out and replaced – by the next cool person of the hour like we have all been makes me think of a few things.

    1. Usually the Replaced is no longer part of the young demographic. Whereas the Replace-ee is indeed very young and inexperienced and often unproven, but by all means, that doesn’t matter as long as the Replace-ee has that cool factor which is some kind of indifineable charisma which in turn makes the Replacer (pastor or leader who is getting rid of the old guard) cool by association. The Replacer also starts showing odd behavior like trying to look like the Replacee which makes him look a tad ridiculous because it’s obvious he is trying too hard.

    2. So it’s interesting that Bob is now the Replaced. His own actions have cast him out of the CCB camp as a frozen one, reaping a bit of what he has sown.

  308. You said it JKeller! How often have we talked and read discussions on this exact scenario?

    One pattern we have noticed from the mega-church worlds we have been a part of and on staff as well – is the Lead Pastor – Big Dog keeps hiring younger men around him as if he is not aging! He also starts to dismiss anyone of his own age group as being ‘too old’ and not on the cutting pastoral edge. He than starts to show signs of mid-life-pastor/leader crisis by trying to dress and act like them. Whats with that?

    We’ve had endless discussions of when all the young guys started wearing wool hats at both ministries. It was a trend with the 20 somethings but when your Lead Pastor as in Bob starts wearing one and says its because he had an infection and started acting weird we knew we were heading into dangerous mid-life territory.

    Was anyone else there and saw this? It’s not that these signs don’t happen – they do. The challenge is to analyze it and look at it for what it is when it’s your pastor who you like and love and think is cool – as if their coolness will rub off on you!

    A young skateboarder -actor said it best –why is everyone trying to live vicariously through Bob at this church?

  309. S Miller – and it wasn’t even winter when the wool hat incident took place so that made it more obvious.

    Its interesting how these guys can surround themselves with youth and try to avoid their own reality of aging in the name of passing the baton to the next generation. We are seeing that it can certainly take its toll in unexpected ways. Thus the hat scenario among others.

    Not that youth shouldn’t be given a place eventually – we all start somewhere; but you would think it would be a glaring red flag if your pastor is only surrounding himself with 35 year olds and younger. Arent there any ministry books that warn about the pitfalls of getting rid of all your wise people who have been with you through thick and thin in order to surround yourself with kids? It’s a fruitless move that is trending now and the leaders themselves are too blind to see it. And then they wonder why people question their authority.

    If you can’t see what kind of pain you are causing others by your bad behavior maybe you shouldn’t be in a people related business.

  310. Great analysis JKeller as usual! You hit the nail on the head–isn’t there a book that warns of this yes – I think it’s called The Bible. There is wisdom found with many counselors but what kind of counselors? Wise ones!

    As DrawingInTheSand said if you are surrounding yourself with yes men that are found primarily from young men who you are grooming – than who else will surround you to give you anything other than a yes? That happened to Michael Jackson and countless other celebrities.

    Why isn’t this obvious to everyone? It’s because it happens in such a slow drip method with one experienced pastor leaving than another grood elder dropping off -so subtle you hardly notice. And if someone does have the guts to ask why did they leave or step down? You will get a version of one of these: A. they are not going with the new direction, B. they are stuck in the old paradigm, C. they are negative, D. they have marriage issues, E. trouble with their children. F. all of the above! It may be vague but you will understand do not ask any more details!

    This has been trending for a long time now from James McDonald to Mark Driscoll – too many to name. It is those older & experienced Elders who just might have some life and professional experience to see red flags appearing. The problem with that is they will slow your ship down. CTruth has said the Calvary method always compared itself with other church groups and thought the congregational style model was way too slow in getting things done. So as it transformed the leaders found the way to accomplish ‘your goals’ is to slowly replace your elders with younger, easier managed men Sound familiar?

    Warning Sign #10 Your Pastor starts sporting a new look –starts matching his youth group leaders in dress style and talk. He hires a stylist and a team of media consultants.

  311. SMiller, (and all of you) thank you for your supportive comments. The church is messy, under both leadership models. We can find major fault with both types in the new testiment. Paul had to straighten Peter out in what appears to have been a Moses model church, and in elder lead churches Paul had to remind some to quite sleeping with their Fathers wives, etc. There was misguided teachings that Paul considered blasphemous… all in Paul’s day! If we wanted to we could say all churches from all time have been flawed and we don’t have to stop at the New Testament, Lot’s daughters, Bathsheba, Moses was a murderer, Adam wasn’t fit to lead a marriage! What leadership would you call Adam’s? God’s? I mean there is nothing before Adam in the human record of leadership.

    I am very used to troubleshooting and if you have a very complex system. You have to break things down at their source. You have to separate fixed (non variables) from variables, then break those variables down from those you have some influence on to those you do not. In this case, free will. Seemingly (without meaning to start an entirely new and huge debate over free will vs. yadayadayada) God has always worked through people with this variable in place called free will and under any “system” of governance it has the potential to blow up.

    I’m suddenly reminded of auto racing (which i know nothing about). If we got rid of engines because they kept blowing… or we replaced chief mechanics with a board of mechanics it wouldn’t matter, the engine can still blow. Get rid of the engine? But wait we’re only looking at the engines that blow… every race, every race season has a winner, some team somehow overcame the blown engine problem and persevered.

    I don’t just want to vent here, and I don’t want to armchair quarterback this one. A reasonable amount of venting (define reasonable? haha) is fine, criticism is welcome for the discovery of variables we might have influence over, but going over things like we should have seen it coming in every church under every situation, that’s like watching a tree grow every second of every day year after year until it gets high enough to touch a power line and it goes ZAP! And someone could say having watched it, “I knew that was going to happen”.

    Blaming leadership styles… Knowing something we should have seen coming… that presents too many issues not addressed. Who is “we”, how do you know you see anything coming? Ever have a feeling that you believe is the HS, check with YOUR counselors and get a pass only to find out later you were right? What do you do? Fire your counselors? Get new ones? Ignore counselors forever? Whether we’re talking Bob, Lot, King David, Peter, Adam, or Moses for that matter you or me… what are we left with? Some here have quit attending churches in buildings for this very reason. You could end up in a race without an engine just so it won’t blow!

    Speaking of vetting leaders, it doesn’t seem that Jesus went to seminary or had tutors, Paul did but came also from a background of murder, Peter was a fisherman and was put in charge by Jesus himself. I’m not suggesting we throw up our hands and not try, but I think what we have, is what we have always had.

    It’s how sin got here in the first place. Seemingly Adam was not prepared and had no accountability or training.

    My point, while I removed myself from this church as a staff person and volunteer. I still respected Bob as doing his personal best, not any better than most of us and a lot better than many. That man had (has) a lot of fruit to show in his life. I never did put him on a pedestal, or at least I quite after a short while in my 20’s. That’s why this didn’t really break my heart like it did with others… oh my heart is broken over the pain that this sin has brought on all affected. But I would say over-all, I still respect Bob on many levels. I’m interested on how this plays out, for what’s worth, my respect is hovering over how it is handled… but then, what’s my respect worth 😉 I want to do my best not to judge, only discern and move forward wisely. I want to thank you all for your investment on this topic, thanks for all your posts… minus those with personal attacks 😉 Peace!

  312. DrawingInTheSand –

    What we are trying to point out in bringing up the points about Bob surrounding himself with only young men (except for Cory the Elder who somehow managed to stay in there) and the wool hat, which is a smaller issue, is these were signs that something was going on, red flag warnings to those with eyes to see. They weren’t the only signs. But in looking around the body of Christ they were the types of signs many pastors of big churches have been exhibiting. To bring this up is not meant to be an attack on Bob’s character but as public visible evidence of his own behavior that indicated all was not well underneath.

    When you step back and look at the bigger picture you begin to see a common thread weaving through the body of Christ. Pastors are behaving badly and people are enabling it. Then the ones who point out what could be going are written off as bitter, offended gossips and trouble-makers. This further enables bad behavior patterns to thrive until it blows up with the hidden stuff coming out – in this case that Bob was having an on-going affair with a woman who is not his wife.

    With other pastors it has been a similar story or one about using church finances to buy fine upper class homes and take quarterly vacations where the rich and famous vacation. If this cloak of silence hadn’t been allowed to blanket all the bad behavior in the first place maybe these pastors would’ve been stopped in their tracks, caught with their hand in the cookie jar, before the result of their actions reached a collateral damage level.

  313. J Keller, I get that, sorry if I didn’t support those points adequately. What I am saying is, engines blow. Leadership fails, even God’s pick can lose in a big way. I’m not saying we shouldn’t try to improve, but what I am saying is, is this is a very hard thing to see coming, or even if you do see it coming and warn them as in Jesus telling Peter how and when he was going to deny Christ, doesn’t necessarily prevent the failure. I think it’s good to have these discussions, and try to do better, I think we are obligated in leadership to do so. But we will not create a better leadership model than any God has created or allowed, the variable is us. And we all need grace, and there is a pretty high likelihood no matter how good the accountability program is that man will let us down. To expect less is to put Bob and other mega Church pastors back up on a pedestal where they don’t belong. Earlier there was some criticism about the CC pastor selection process… I don’t see any better selection going on in the bible, murderers, adulterers, uneducated, untrained people are often selected by God or Jesus and both have their wins and losses… can we really do better? Or can we just do our best?

  314. DrawingInTheSand – I thought about adding to my response after I sent it last night knowing it might sound like a personal attack on Bob. I am not attacking him personally but pointing out the red flags we saw happening before our eyes to a Leader of a local and International Group and a public figure in this area.

    I need to clarify my attempt was to reveal example after example of red flag- waving behaviors in order to make a point and build a case that the signs have been there for a long time at CC Boise. They are also showing up all across the country – the pattern is becoming obvious to any who will see. I wanted to paint a picture of just a few of the large name leaders who have gone down a similar road and the effect it is having.

    I am concerned about this particular group of believers at this church as well. My heart breaks for friends attending there who have called wanting to discuss the announcement. They are in confusion with the limited information they were hit with.

    I believe the Lord is using each and every scandal, crisis & upset to get believers attention that the paradigm, or way to do church has changed. Many sense it is already done and we need to catch up and find out what the Lord is calling us to do in these last days – no matter where we are on the timeline.

    If we’re in a new season could it be the Lord is wanting to change things, not to punish but to give us the tools to get ready for whatever is up ahead? It’s the most loving thing He could do as our world is changing before our eyes. He will always have a new plan to help us cope, survive and than thrive in our ministries. If we didn’t believe that we would feel hopeless. Instead it’s actually a good thing to grow us up and help us prepare for His return.

    If I hadn’t personally been thrown off my horse like Paul I never would have believed it either! its much larger than CC Boise or Bob Caldwell or Bob Coy.

    I do see the value in discussing each crisis, or church situation in order to learn from it and be able to give a reason for what we believe. That’s the value of a blog. I was trying to throw in some humor into a non funny situation – using the wool hat episode as a catalyst.

    The blogs we first read when we left our controlling church taught us with humor and spoofs on the ridiculous behaviors in order to help us step back and open our eyes. Scales falling alert!

    When you start to see the overall picture and report out there its mind boggling and depress you. Humor and open discussions like this can help us cope and learn at the same time.

    Who knew we’d be having Pastors doing reality shows and flying in personal jets at this stage of the game. They have million dollar homes and personal assistants and chefs and all the trappings. If we don’t laugh or ask questions we may not survive with our faith intact.

    The Book of Acts is great reminder at just how fast one system can be changed. This is where you can ask the questions and help the next class after you. Hope this helps you hear my heart!

  315. JKeller – You get the writing award for helping to bring insight to what I was trying to type late last night.

    We all feel passionate about the state of the church and our leaders falling. We get attached to them so strongly that when they fall even if we are disappointed we still can feel connected and want to protect them at the same time.

    You are an excellent writer who cut right through the discussion to bring truth! Thank you and may your sword of Zorro strike again!

  316. I just caught up with a few posts and I wanted to answer a few questions.
    1) knowing who the gal is will not do anything other than break your heart and cause even more anger. She is not on a public platform or a place of ministry at this time. The accountability and obligation to answer from a public platform goes along with speaking from that same platform. Her family, those she mentored and leaders know. For others, it’s irrelevant. She sinned, she knows it and those who should know do know. Her husband and family knew a long time before it became public. I don’t think protecting them is covering up. I think it’s helping them not to have to rip open wounds that have started to heal just a bit.

    2) Yes. You are right in thinking there is a cover up here. Hands down, without doubt, he has tried to cover up so much more than just an affair.
    Does that change that God worked in and through him? No! He’s a pawn. I’m a pawn. God doesn’t need a single one of us. Yet He uses is. It’s humbling. Let God be true and every man – even Bob – a liar.

    3) the best advice here is pray for Tucker. Yeah, he may have some optimistic glow outlook or whatever but guys, he’s not a stupid man. Whether he changes the model, or follows in its corrupt and twisted footsteps; God will use him. He is a pawn.

    4) Turn your eyes upon JESUS, look full in his wonderful face. And the things of earth will grow strangely dim in the light of his glory and GRACE.

    PEACE Y’all. Focus on what you have control over – then and only then will you be the perfect pawn for the Kingdom.

  317. @ 309 SMiller

    “Whats with that?”

    Surely you know. We live in a culture that worships youth, newness, and what we Christians perceive as a “fresh work of the Spirit”; which we associate with the young and the new. When a pastor has built his ministry, at least in part, upon his church being the cool place to be, there is the effort to maintain that personal and atmosphere. It is what I call living off the jet fumes of your glory days.

    Much of American Christianity has been built upon presenting the truths of God within the context of the cool factor. It is tapping into the prevailing winds of culture. Once that is no longer present, people look elsewhere to find that medium of presentation.This became evident to me when a friend of mine described his new pastor as “like a young Greg Laurie.” Essentially, he is identifying style without much regard for substance.

    We have not taught our people very well, they do not recognize that which is truly valuable and spiritual.

  318. personal should have read persona. auto correct strikes again.

  319. If I am a pawn of God’s wouldn’t that mean I have control over nothing? Is pawn the new trending word now? I’ve been out of the IC for quite awhile now so what is trending is completely lost on me not that I care what the cool thing is.

  320. What’s trending now in the Christian Culture. Too funny J Keller

  321. More good than bad was done by this Pastor! Don’t ever forget that….

  322. Satan is the accuser…

  323. Isn’t trying to focus on th good rather than the atrocity, was stated in the post above, a way of deflecting the responsibility and effects of sin and trying to minimalize it?

  324. Ugh…I hate typing on my phone.

    “Which was stated in the post above,” was what I meant to say.

    Still, sounds like deflection/minimalizing to me.

  325. Stephen @324 Yes I agree it is deflection. Let’s minimalize the years of a double life violating the “sacred trust” (Bob’s words not mine) his family and the people in his church gave to him; that way we can keep him on the pedestal just awhile longer. (Yes this is sarcasm for those who may jump to conclusions and misinterpret my meaning.)

    Only the Lord will determine what was good or what was wood, hay and stubble in Bob’s life when he stands before him to give an account. Just like the rest of us. I’m sure his family would gladly trade all the “good” Bob did all those years for the loyalty and integrity they believed he had.

  326. And the “don’t you forget that,” is very aggressive and “threatening.”

    -All classic reactions to avoid responsibility or admit wrongs in a counselling setting.

  327. Stephen — Good insights! That was in the air before this story was revealed. Our insider friends have said that whenever anyone tried to hold a standard of accountability at CCBoise this same argument came up. The elders & staff — everyone would deflect and go there — look at all the good he is doing or has done here or in India – all around the world. A scandal or problem does not negate that if it was truly good work but it doesn’t mean you shouldn’t address the present problem.

    Is that the standard in the Bible? I know someone here can quote the passage about what standards elders or leaders are accountable to as in the husband of one wife… and on and on. It also states don’t go into leadership if you don’t want to be held to that standard and higher.

    Once again my concern is not just this situation, but there seems to be a slide of ethics morals and Bible Standards across the board. Exhibit C: Israel Houton popular Worship Leader from Lakewood Church – the largest church in the country, just recently went through this. He was caught having an affair with a reality show star — Kim Kardashian look alike –read it for yourself. They had him take a 6 month ‘sabbatical” not sure what that meant and he’s now on the roster to perform at their NFL Gospel Conference coming up. He also still has his docket full of churches where he is going to perform – duets with the new wife too! There are many articles on this and he wasn’t even the Lead Pastor.

    So what do we think? Are there new standards now? You can imagine the pain Lakewood went through in their dilemma of deciding whether to put him on probation, or let him go. When someone draws that kind of numbers to your church you hesitate to deal harshly with them or your numbers may go down. Than it shows in the offering buckets and than in the campus and buildings.

    Case in point: I visited ORU after they had experienced many a defining scandal in 2003. Their buildings looked shabby and in a state of decline. The carpets needed replaced, the buildings needed maintenance and the campus just looked tired. Whether you like them or not they were the lightening rod of how to do big ministry in the day. Everyone knows this is where it can lead and that is the real fear.

    Alot is at stake in big time ministry as in the dollars it takes to keep your ship afloat. This is why people tend to want to look at all that was built and done in the past glory days.

    Don’t you think they did the same at PTL and ORU? How about Robert Schuller and his kingdom? Now it is owned by the Catholic Church. Titantic after Titanic keeps floating to the surface in order to get our attention. Are we listening yet?

  328. Very good SMiller @328! Love that you included all the examples of bigger ministries than Bob’s that have fallen into moral sin and make the point that our concern here is the church at large not only Bob and the local church he betrayed. After all, the judgment of God in dealing with the church because of all this moral failing rampant today affects all of us whether we like it or not. So to have a vested interest in what is happening is not just morbid curiosity nor is it taking our eyes off Jesus like anonymous implied @317. We care about Christ’s church because it is the body we were born into when we received him. And we have a right to know what is going on and we have a right to question or make a point about cover up when we see signs it is happening.

    Speaking of covering up, according to Anonymous @317 apparently Bob was covering up much more than an affair. If that’s the case why throw that piece of news out there and then say by the way you shouldn’t care about that – keep your eyes on Jesus like a good little pawn. Gahhhh!

    This whole push and pull idiocy is one of the reasons I cannot participate in the institution of church as it exists anymore. Thankfully I am in the company of good friends who respect my heart and brain and don’t tell me things like don’t worry your pretty little head about matters out of your control.

    Control? like I can control anything?

    God is the one in control and it looks like he has given the church system a long rope to hang itself with.

  329. Golden Globe of responses right here!

    We get exasperated when people don’t seem to see ‘WE” are the Body of Christ – all of us together. If one parts hurts or does something stupid we are all affected. The world will lump us all together as ‘those Christians.’ More importantly the Lord deals out judgement or consequences in love to get the whole body’s attention.

    Have you ever hurt one body part and not have it affect all of you – even a small injury can really cry out in pain!

    Since I woke up I’ve been saying for years – they’re going to get us all on a train to Auschwitz. Meaning: all this crossing of lines and trying to do anything to be a part of the world and blend in by coming like them will affect all of us. It could lead to taxation on churches which would surely bring the system down in a hurry. The wealth stream would be cut in half if that happened, or worse.

    We don’t know where all this is leading but it feels like we’re on a train to somewhere and its not a good location as in Siberia. Someone has to sound the alarm. The pulpits are doing it so it has to come from somewhere the writers on blogs. You’ll often find more truth here and fruitful discussion here than a 10 points monologue passing as a sermon with less Scripture in it than a Dead Sea Scroll fragment.

    JKeller I love how you rebel against the word picture of being a pawn in the larger scale of things. Something about that strikes me wrong. If thats the case than give up now. We may not be able to affect huge masses but than again we might. Who knows? I just know we have to try to point out some things we are seeing that this situation has once again brought to light.

  330. Anonymous @317 concept of pawns
    S Miller @330 rebel against…being a pawn…strikes me wrong….if that’s the case then give up now.

    Ok I’m glad I’m not the only one who isn’t loving the pawn concept. I had a visceral reaction to that when Anonymous implied that no matter how much we sin God uses us anyway because we are merely pawns. There is some truth to that – we all have sinned and our righteousness is in Christ not of ourselves etc.

    But there is untruth as well. And the whole pawn argument is meant to downplay the atomic bomb CCB received on the weekend of Dec 16th. But aside from that, if I think of myself as a pawn, it changes my concept of how my loving Father sees me. When I was discussing this pawn idea with my better half, his initial reaction was: where is the free will in being a pawn? If God wanted us to be pawns we would all be robots. and God already has angels who do his bidding without free will. God wants a two-way relationship and Jesus called his disciples to be friends not servants.

    Ah! Thank you for helping me define why the pawn concept was bugging me. I was telling him that “pawn” drains all the love out of the equation. And like S Miller says if that’s the case then we can give up now.

    Ok, diverting from topic a bit but I just want to add: if asking questions in open discussion is such a rebellious thing how would we ever learn from each other? As we discuss we can see more clearly. In homes, in school, at work, in friendship, on blogs. Keep the conversation going and there will be epiphanies every day. And it’s free therapy. On the other hand, sit in rows facing forward listening to one man give his opinion on how to live life in a forum where no discussion is wanted or needed.

    Would God say to a pawn, “Come, let us reason together.” ?

  331. So it has been close to 4 weeks since we first learned of the Bob Caldwell affair. Many here have brought out points and counterpoints regarding what tragedy and destruction this has caused. Many have also brought out points that we need to watch our own walk and witness for Jesus, lest we find ourselves in similar situations. My purpose for posting tonight is to reiterate Gods’ call to each christian. Be wise, be discerning, do not be easily misled.

    Folks are still trying to remind themselves and each other of all the good that Bob did. Why? God is God. His purpose is accomplished by His hand through us. Bob loved the Lord. I am not sure what he knows about God right now. His adultery was just discovered, however it did not just happen. It was because he would not allow any another man to speak into his life that he went off course many years ago. Don’t forget that even when confronted by Tucker and the Elders (do you know who they are?), Bob thought he could persuade them into keeping it a secret. He served as the Pastor for nearly 1/3 of his tenure with this secret fiasco. And as others have indicated, it is just one symptom of his addiction issues. His manipulation is all over the funds and ministries there. He has been a liar extraordinaire for most of his pastoral career. Sorry to be a Debbie downer, but any fruit that came from what he did was by the grace of God to those that God intended the blessing for.

    Bob betrayed his wife and his vow to her. His wife deserves the grace of each of us. Perhaps the church will pay for her to be counseled by a professional group that can show her how to be wise, discerning, and not easily misled, giving her skills to live the rest of her life in peace.

  332. JKeller – good topics to discuss as always. Writing in the form of blogging has been one of the best forms of therapies out there for those who are hurt by a church, or controlling group or who just have questions. In fact you can be hurt or wounded and easily go join another group having drawn no conclusion -or the wrong ones. The turnstyle.

    One of my memories at CCB before leaving was when Bob was discussing this very topic. He was tired of hearing people who were wounded by other churches – just get over it! was the therapy he recommended. I’ll never forget his quote ” no one put a gun to your head.”
    As I sat there in disbelief I thought ‘ you’re right and you’re not going to put one to mine either.’

    This was good fruit because I had learned something from my former church and I did not allow him to put a spiritual gun to my head or heart. I actually never got that close to the fire there. I had learned to wait and watch before jumping in.

    I was watching to see how people were treated, especially those on staff. In fact the litmus test for most groups is how are people treated when they resign from a job or ministry. That is the acid test – always. How many former staffers and elders do you have there who are happy and treated with respect when they are not serving?

    Again I’m not talking just about CCB but all groups in general. If there is never any viable reason to get off the ship, or simply take a break and step back for awhile than that should get your attention. Watch and observe before getting right back in there is my advice to many who were used up. It’s ok to sit and seat belt yourself to the chair if necessary when they ask for volunteers until you feel ready or desire to do something there. A huge step towards getting free.

  333. Wells said CTruth! You know a lot of what you have observed through the years, not just this latest phase but way back. You have truly seen lots of patterns and history that goes way back. Almost every group that has ever gotten off has alway seemed to start out with a mission and a lot of good intentions. That is not the hard part, the real test comes when the numbers grow and real success starts to come. How are problems and issues handled on a daily basis.

    How much control do your Elders or on staff Pastors have to speak into your leaders life when they get off track. It happens over and over again with a One Man at the top scenario that we have created or allowed them to create. They are irreplaceable in our eyes as we love to watch them preach. We are attached to their style, voice mode of operations. Its so much easier to sit back in your chair and just listen and not question like a ride at Disneyland.

    Good job in making us think and look at the history. It was there all the time if anyone had taken time to interview those around him. Wouldn’t the most loving thing to do be to keep your Pastor accountable by real men and women in authority because when you grow such large numbers you have so much at stake? People’s spiritual lives.

    Wouldn’t it have been a loving thing to do for his own wife and family? You are having a heart for the one hurt the most in this ordeal of conscience. What does she do now? Do you hear what happened to Bob Coy’s wife and family? Where are they now? What became of them? It’s like they never existed and are supposed to ride off into the sunset?

  334. Wells said CTruth! You know a lot from what you have observed through the years, not just this latest phase – but way back. You have truly seen lots of patterns and history that goes from the beginning. Almost every group that has ever gotten off has alway seemed to start out with a mission and a lot of good intentions. That is not the hard part, the real test comes when the numbers grow and real success starts to come. How are problems and issues handled on a daily basis?

    How much control do your Elders or on staff Pastors have to speak into your leader’s life when they get off track. It happens over and over again with a One Man at the top scenario that we have created or allowed them to create. They are irreplaceable in our eyes as we love to watch them preach. We are attached to their style, voice, mode of operations. It’s so much easier to sit back in your chair and just listen and not ask question like a ride at Disneyland.

    Good job in making us think and look at the history. It was there all the time if anyone had taken time to interview those around him. Wouldn’t the most loving thing to do involve keeping your Pastor accountable by real men and women in authority because when you grow such large numbers you have so much at stake? People’s spiritual lives in large numbers.

    Wouldn’t it have been a loving thing to do for his own wife and family? You are having a heart for the one hurt the most in this ordeal of conscience. What does she do now? Do you hear what happened to Bob Coy’s wife and family? Where are they now? What became of them? It’s like they never existed and are supposed to ride off into the sunset?

  335. Sorry for the double post — I keep repeating the same info in one form or another!

  336. CTruth @332
    Yes where does Cathy go now, really? Like she is going to want to darken the door there. But at least she has family and hopefully good faithful friends around her as she gets to the other side of this. Meanwhile Bob and Whoever She Is are nowhere to be seen while Cathy and her children bear the weight of this publicly. And why does everyone seem to want to protect Bob’s mistress from exposure? Cathy and her children should be the ones protected for goodness sakes. They should be the ones given preference and a shield of grace, not the perpetrators of their pain. Something is wrong with this picture of shielding Bob and She from anything. And you are right that the church Cathy gave her life and money to should pay for counseling and anything else that is needed for her well being. After all, she donated her family inheritance to that church via Bob’s ‘discretionary’ use of it.

    S Miller @333
    Yes it has been interesting to get a bird’s eye view of how some of the staff and elders were treated at this church, at least for the years we were there. It was eye-opening and painful to watch; but also a necessary school of learning, not only for the one who went through it, but for us as we watched from the sidelines. Without that we wouldn’t have seen and put two and two together. The biggest takeaway was the similarities that came to light between CCB and our former church – not even the same denomination – but the structure was built with the same bones. And to think at first we thought there were such vast differences and raved about it. It felt like vindication at first after what we had gone through previously.

    @331 One more point about PAWNS from comment 331: In our discussion earlier my better half also said if you want to use the example of pawns, it’s the mega church pastors who are using people at their disposal as pawns, all in the name of ministry for the Lord. So true. Submit to authority with no questions asked – check your mind and discernment at the door. We know what it is to be a pawn because we have been there done that. Once you know what it is to be free from pawn-life though you don’t ever want to sign up for it again. You remember you are still free to choose life over death and what it means to say yes to God in a healthy way never to be controlled by men and religiosity again.

  337. “…pastors who are using people at their disposal as pawns, all in the name of ministry for the Lord. So true. Submit to authority with no questions asked – check your mind and discernment at the door. We know what it is to be a pawn because we have been there done that. Once you know what it is to be free from pawn-life though you don’t ever want to sign up for it again. You remember you are still free to choose life over death and what it means to say yes to God in a healthy way never to be controlled by men and religiosity again.”

    This is brilliant. So true.
    Signed,
    Former Pawn (and to my shame, I’d add “Lackey”)

  338. We hear you Disillusioned – we were all willing subjects. But to your credit – and ours – we were products of the culture we were in. That culture is still alive and well kept going by the authoritarian teachings of a few in the name of submission to God and remaining in His will. Somehow they have convinced the Christian world that submitting to your pastor is simultaneously submitting to God. It’s a racket that works well for those in charge, not so much for the lackies (I like your word!). But the good news is people are waking up all over America, called out to get their true calling from God back, to follow Him again instead of a pastor who goes off the rails in scandalous detail.

  339. “Somehow they have convinced the Christian world that submitting to your pastor is simultaneously submitting to God. ”

    Bingo.

    Such blasphemy!!

    “Toadie ” is another way I see my former self. They used me to do their dirty work, like enforcing the pastor’s wife’s dress code (not kidding), or confronting any problems with people not only in the ministry I was in, but others as well. “God is using you,” I was told. “You’re not afraid to tell the truth,” they said.

    Of course, that didn’t work out so well for them when they sinned. And to my utter shock, turned out the scriptures didn’t apply to “leadership.”

  340. Oh my, a dress code @340.

    Your Toadie name is making me LOL but at least it’s not who you are now. To make someone else the enforcer is so typical of these types of religious leaders. We saw that in our former church too. The lead pastor wants to remain the good guy who is revered and worshipped. Until it’s played out and one by one people wake up to what is really happening. No wonder bloggers the world over use the Hitler/Himmler comparison to their former leadership. Every controlling church has their Gestapo.

    And of course the rules don’t apply to the pastoral elite or to their offspring. It plays out the same way every time it seems.

    The best thing that can happen to a person caught up in a controlling church is to become disillusioned with it and its brand of Jesus, like your blog name expresses. The next step is reclaiming your faith in the true Jesus who didn’t have a Himmler at his side to do his bidding.

  341. Disillusioned – Isn’t it great and painful at the same time to look at our history and see what we gained and lost?

    My favorite movie after getting out has been “Inside the Third Reich” based on the story of HItler’s favorite – Architect Albert Spear. I wish I could hand out DVD’s of this movie. He was in the heart of the ‘inner circle’ of Hitler and he was one of the only ones to survive and write a book on his experience. His detailed account tells what it was like to work to know the leader and experience the pride and thrill of being of being part of the elite.

    The building stage was exciting and personally fulfilling to him, as it is to all of us. He was Hitler’s favorite for a while – then stage 2 began. He gives a detailed account of how he survived going from worshipper to conspirator. When Germany was losing the war and HItler was in the bunker giving orders for a scorched earth and the destruction of his own country it was Spear who found a way to stop his insane orders. I’m so glad the Lord helped me to find this story after I got out. I’m not sure I would have understood it before than.

    Yes JKeller says it right that almost every exile from a controlling group situation relates to these stories of past generals who got in for the right reasons and also get out for the right reasons.

    Its no fun to be used as a pawn, to be scanned for your gifts and talents to see what you can do for the organization. Eventually you see how you let yourself be used just like Spear. Once you see that you’ll never be used in that way again.

    We all had a need, desire or ambition that put us there — fortunately the Lord got us out! The blogs help us have empathy for others and try to bring understanding of what led us there. There’s healing on the way out and writing our stories helps us and others who drop by. I find comfort in reading in the Word ‘and such as is common to man.’ Isn’t that true!

  342. To continue SMiller’s topic @342 “Eventually you see how you let yourself be used… We all had a need, desire or ambition that put us there…”

    It’s so embarrassing when you come to terms with your own motivation for allowing yourself to be duped. Makes you cringe when you think of it. Lots of sighs and eye rolling – gasps and a bit of self loathing. But it’s actually a good place to come to so you can repent of it and begin the spiritual healing process. S Miller is right “such is common to man” – both in good motives and not so good.

    We all come to the truth about ourselves at our own pace. Just like salvation through Christ is an individual awakening to truth by the help of the Holy Spirit, coming to truth in other areas is as well. We can’t make it happen for others. The Lord understands each person’s journey and extends great grace and patience to us all as we take the needed time to see ourselves honestly in a season of spiritual detox.

  343. Someone mentioned the movie about Albert Speer, Hitler’s confidant and chief architect.

    The movie is available for free in 2 parts on YouTube. I watched it. Very interesting.

    Just search “Inside the third Reich” on YouTube.

  344. Although I’m not buying the notion that Speer was a “good” Nazi.

  345. The woman was on staff for many years at Calvary. She left about 6 months ago.
    Given that she was also in a leadership role, it’s even more disheartening.

  346. Coach, if what you say is true, then her identity may need to be revealed. PLEASE notice I said “may”. Let me explain. While I am aware that some women are victims of an unequal power structure that makes the pastor hold sway over them (making it abuse), some women have been known to have histories of causing men to fall in this way. IF it should be found that this woman has such a history,–AND–she is unrepentant– then other fellowships may need to be warned so that her presence may not be a stumbling block to other men. In an unrepentant state, these women would rightly be known as “Jezebels” and should not be allowed to hold any kind of position inside a church. I am NOT trying to say this women fits that profile because I do not know her–I am simply making a statement that this phenomena does exist. When I was very young, I was involved in a CC satellite fellowship in which one of the young women was lethal to the walk of the young men. She was allowed to continue on because she was friends with leadership. It turns out she affected a previous fellowship the same way. She wreaked havoc because no no one was warned.

    Another aspect to this is one that has not been discussed. It is unusual for this to happen–but I have seen it. This would be for the “fallen” woman to want her identity to be known. The reason was that she was very, very sorry and wanted to get ahead of the gossip that was already there. She publicly apologized to the wife and family, asked for forgiveness from wife and congregants and voluntarily went away so that the married couple could go through counseling. Truly this is rare, but it did allow the woman who was guilty to redeem herself and never be talked about as one who did not repent. She was clean before her fellowship and before her God. Frankly, that reaction gets my vote. In the end, it had a good effect on the devastated wife and may have been a factor in that marriage surviving. I know the man and he will never seek an office inside a church again. That also gets my vote.

  347. Based on what I know about this case it would serve absolutely no purpose to identify this woman.
    I also strongly object to the notion of “Jezebels’…what do we call men who are looking for such?

  348. Michael. I was simply trying to give all sides. If what you know makes revealing her identity serve no purpose, then I can accept that. If you read what I said, it was qualified. If you object to the term, “Jezebel”, then suffice to say, within CC walls especially, I saw plenty of women who had no compunction against causing men to fall in this way. If you have a better term, I would be fine with that as well. However, I can attest that I also saw plenty of men with the same predatory behavior. I do not know what word would suffice. In the “old days”, they were called “rakes”. Now I would just call them disgusting wolves who should be put out of the church. My purpose in anything I write, is to proffer up ideas that would make something as hurtful as this situation less likely to happen again. I am sorry if I stated it badly. I do respect your comments.

  349. JM,

    I’ve seen the “Jezebel” designation used in countless Calvary Chapels to deflect blame for sin onto the woman.

    I was taught that “all women are Jezebels” by a CC pastor.

    My information is that Caldwell pursued this woman long after she tried to cut off the relationship…eventually resulting her dismissal when the heat came…

  350. From my understanding from a friend who is very close to this woman.
    The affair went on for 14 years.
    About 5 years ago she tried to break it off.
    Bob wouldn’t leave her alone.
    He kept pursuing her, showing up where he knew she would be,
    scheduling meetings or trips with her.
    He threatened and intimidated her.
    She even contimplated moving.
    However, she didn’t leave her leadership paid staff position until about 5 months ago.
    If it was that bad, why would she continue working for him???
    It is also my understanding that her family knew about the situation several years ago and worked through it.
    To “out” her, I am told, would open those wounds.
    I have issues with this as well
    She to was in a mentoring and leadership role. Is there no accountability on her part?
    I looked up to this woman as well.
    At one point was under her leadership
    for a short time.
    My understanding is she confided in a friend she was in a Bible Study group with.
    She was told she needed to go forward and let Tucker know.
    She refused. So, the woman she confided in went to Tucker.
    I do believe Tucker needs to address the congregation again.
    They read a letter, make a statement and Bob and this woman dissapear.
    Nothing else is said, and everyone moved on like nothing happened.
    Tucker needs to let the congregation know what is happening, is Bob repentive (I am told he is not, he refused counseling from suggestions of elders and fled to Mexixo to see a therapist of his choice that doesn’t even deal in these issues. He also plans to go back into Ministry in one year, and is still trying to control and manipulate everyone).
    What steps are being taken so this never happens again?
    The Calvary Chapel Association on a whole is in shambles. Will we continue to be a Calvary Chapel, or a new church?
    Does Tucker plan to continue in the Moses model design?

  351. Wow! What a mess. The details of these things usually rise to the surface before it’s all said and done.

  352. Michael, Wow!

    I thought what I had been taught at some CC’s was “off the wall”! I had no idea! No wonder you had a reaction. I can promise you that I do not share that warped view of the Jezebel designation. I was genuinely strict in my application. I witnessed the strange way CC’s dealt with women and how they “miscounseled” married couples. I wouldn’t wonder, with the amount of adulterating pastors that CC seems to have produced, that they had to have some way to explain their own failings rather than take responsibility for them. After all, Chuck never required it. I will always believe it was the faulty foundation cemented by Chuck Smith’s own sin that set the stage for so much that is happening now.

    According to what you have shared, then this woman was likely a victim much in the tradition of those decimated by Tullian Tchividjian. I grieve and wonder when will it stop. Thank you so much for your input.

  353. “He also plans to go back into Ministry in one year, and is still trying to control and manipulate everyone.”

    If Bob Caldwell decides to go back into ministry in a year, he will be on the front page of this blog every day until he decides differently.
    That is not a threat, it’s a promise.

  354. JM,

    @353… well said.

  355. Does anyone see any similarities between this and the long term decadence of Bob Coy?

  356. What a mess….praying

  357. reading this thread enforces my view that where sinful – as defined by God, Himself – interactions of a sexual nature take place within the Church there are many reasons (can’t use shades of grey anymore)…
    i have observed women go after a pastor and i have seen attractive, but innocent women accused of doing so, when it was just the hormones of the pastor that were going nutty (the rationale being, “he’s a good and godly man, so she must be doing something to cause him to sin”)… maybe, instead of analyzing the cause, for the Church it should be a black and white issue: don’t do that! period!
    there will always be that lovely yin and yang between the sexes, but we need to call a spade a spade and deal with it, whether it’s our own inclination (which one should be able to deal with without a public intervention, i.e., if you can’t handle yourself, then move on down the road) or a more destructive and egregious public mess-up – but…
    predatory behavior of any stripe should be kicked out church IMO (maybe not kicked out of the Church – only God knows)

    just sayin

  358. Coach @351 On her facebook page is a photo dated August 2016 of the church she and her family now go to – there is a comment under it where she says they have been there since last November which would have been Nov2015. So she couldn’t have left the staff at CCB 5 months ago. Not saying your account is completely wrong, just that point.

    My opinion on whether people know who Bob’s former mistress is:
    While I’m not all for exposing this woman to shame her or open old wounds that she helped create, I don’t understand the need for cover up and protection from public scrutiny. If anyone deserves protection it’s the betrayed family members to whom all sympathy should be given. We obviously can’t protect Cathy and the others, and if we can’t do that, then how can we give protection to Bob or this woman?

    All this may be a moot point since, if you and I know who it is, that means others know. And eventually word will get out because unfortunately that is just how it goes.

  359. The reason for not exposing her is simple.
    We don’t have a warrant to expose repentant sinners to the congregation if they are not an elder in the church.
    It does absolutely no good in affecting their restoration to God and the church…it simply fulfills our need for some sort of justice.
    The goal of church discipline is always repentance and restoration.

    I will not allow any exposure here beyond what is already known.

  360. The fact is that anyone in that church who cares or wants to know who the “woman” is, already knows.

    Even the details shared here today (without revealing her name) about her is most likely enough for folks in the church to figure out who she is.

    To out her and her family publicly is not right in my opinion.

  361. All I can add to this thread is wow. It is actually confirming and healing to many who had doubts questions and red flags in their heart for years and no one would listen.

    This information explains so much on the bad behavior going on there in leadership overall. This is just one situation where it was going on. Maybe it was the most important thing going on there but maybe this scandal/affair/relationship was only one that has come to the surface at that this time.

    Go back and look at Bob Coy and many others as I have said from the beginning of my comments on this thread. It it often the tip of the iceberg that melts and causes a splash and than the rest of it is revealed. Could it be a pattern from way back?

    My concern from the time I was at this church and before was how quickly they took people involved in the Jesus Movement and went against the warning not to put new Christians in leadership. They threw them into the deep end of the pool and promoted them as Pastors from the get go. What is the warning — oh yea don’t do that or they will get in pride and fall.

    I went crazy when my friend who was a brand new Christian was put in an important position almost immediately there with Bob. I knew it was wrong and when I sounded warning bells I was dismissed and cut off for a great number of years. Believe me the tears were flowing as I watched from afar.

    Now this all makes sense. As heartbreaking as this situation is I actually feel a comfort from knowing what was happening. You do not have to name – names Michael. No one is asking to that on this or any other blog I’ve ever read – but there is a great deal of information you can clear up that people have been wondering about for years. This is one of the best teaching tools the Church at Large has now. It has a great amount of lessons here that can be used to help other groups not allow to happen at their church. The question is why wasn’t it dealt with at first hint?

    The only way we get and grow in discernment as Christians and in unity is to see the signs and than walk through the process of trying to reason together and learn how to deal with them. Its not if people are going to fall into a ditch, or sin, they do– but how and when will we deal with it?

    This is not just a member of the church it is the Leader – the Lead Pastor – the one who built this church. It has to be dealt with to the core or you will plant the seeds for the next one.

    People need and want to talk about it. Understanding brings wisdom – above all get understanding about why this went on.

  362. I agree with S Miller – It’s not a matter of naming names to “out” a person. I’m not asking for this blog in particular to name names. This is just part of the discussion and what kinds of questions this type of situation raises. My question is for anyone who feels the need to protect narcissistic and/or sociopathic people when their actions have blown up the worlds of those who have to live with them. They are good at very good at generating sympathy- that’s what they do, part of their M.O.

  363. So, in a pastor-centric, top down leadership model, what can the average attendee do who “discerns” something is wrong with regard to a pastor in sin like Bob Caldwell was. For at least 14 years according to a witness here.

    As long as people fill the pews and the donation boxes, pastors who are involved in sin like this, feel emboldened.

    That is until someone finally comes forward and threatens to blow the top off.

  364. Coach,

    “What steps are being taken so this never happens again?
    The Calvary Chapel Association on a whole is in shambles. Will we continue to be a Calvary Chapel, or a new church?
    Does Tucker plan to continue in the Moses model design?”

    Personally, I wouldn’t step foot inside this church again unless all those questions were answered in full. With 14 years of sordid, behind the scenes debauchery, you can’t tell me nobody knew. Infact, if Bob was able to slip this under the radar of most at CC Boise–there had to be other problems going on that also “slipped” under the radar. Bob’s long term treachery would be indicative of that. I would want a full audit of the money and a full report thereafter. I would also have to know who knew of his behavior and request that these people be dealt with for their sin of complicity. If there would be reluctance on the part of leadership to do any of these things and let the light shine in, I would take that as a bad sign. People who are doing the right thing like to come out into the light so that their deeds may be manifest. Scrutiny doesn’t bother them. Caldwell couldn’t have lived in such darkness for so long except he remained unchallenged–or as I have actually seen before–others around him were in some kind of darkness. There is plenty that doesn’t seem right here. The congregation needs to step up and demand transparency.

  365. @JM 365

    I couldn’t agree with you more. It’s the lack of transparency that is bothering me. I agree, we are not here to demand names or anything like that. But leadership and those involved, Bob and “her” should come forward in order to be restored. Someone said she was not an Elder, this is splitting hairs IMO. She was in leadership for years, mentoring, in a position of influence in the body of Christ. She should be held to the same level of accountability as any leader. I’m not asking for this blog to name names, I just really like the way you put it JM.

    “People who are doing the right thing like to come out into the light so that their deeds may be manifest. Scrutiny doesn’t bother them.”

    I’m pointing that statement not only at her but at current leadership, at Tucker. Enough already, out with all the truth. Make a plan for going forward and on with the healing. I said this before, you can’t heal a wound until you clean it all out.

    Let me put it another way. It is not for us to demand, I agree with those who say that would be for our own curiosity. But if this isn’t done as prescribed it leaves behind a stench, or a sting that for many won’t go away. It is living with sin, it is more sin. But by the very grace we have all received I know we are not to ask for heads on plates. This is more a matter of restoring trust in a church body and creating a healthy model of leadership and accountability going forward.

    If future leaders and their mistresses know their names will come out, that could be a pretty good deterrent…

  366. On thre recommendation of a poster on this thread I watched the movie about Albert Speers who was Hitler’s chief architect and confidant. Also known as the “Good Nazi.”

    After the war he was tried and served 20 years in prison.

    He claimed he didn’t know about Hitlers plan to exterminate the Jews in via the “Final Solution.”

    After he was released he wrote the book “Inside the third Reich.” Made oodles of money on royalties, traveled around the world doing interviews and became somewhat of celebrity.

    I think people were enamored with his so-called “transparency”. Yet, it was uncovered in 2005 through a letter he had written that he had attended a meeting where Himmler outlined the final solution. So, he knew. He exercised limited transparency and continued to profit off his notoriety until his death.

    Which to me is similar to what a lot of the celebrity pastors do who get caught, are “reformed” and roll right back into the ministry stream.

  367. Furthermore – when I read the latest discussion in this thread to my better half he reminded me of this point: The New Testament reminds us to take heed lest we fall when it comes to judging sin. If all parties are not exposed then it makes it easier for a person not in ministry to think he or she will get away with it simply because he-she is not an elder or whatnot? Only the pastor person will be publically examined? What is this a new precedent? Paul said they both need to be brought forward.

    And furthermore what if the person WAS in ministry at the time of the affair-betrayal-of-the-sacred-trust as Coach mentioned? Just because you are no longer there means there no accountability? Exposure of the woman doesn’t have to happen here on this blog which is not even in the same state where it all happened. But I agree with Coach that Tucker and his elders need to address this again here in Boise in their church. They owe the people that much.

  368. Side note/question: I’ve seen several posts over the past few weeks mentioning or hinting/alluding to a secret sin of Chuck Smiths that, it is said or implied, may be at the core of the adultery and secrecy issues in CC overall.

    Why is it that no one actually comes out and says what happened? Is it a “probably true but not provable” kind of thing?

  369. “Therefore let anyone who thinks that he stands take heed lest he fall” says absolutely nothing about exposure.

    Nothing.

    “Paul said they both need to be brought forward”.

    Can you show me where?

    Sometimes it’s easy to tell where people went to church…

  370. #370

    Um, that comment was not directed toward my post at #369, right?

    (I’m assuming not)

  371. Stephen,

    I’m writing about the Smith issue in my book.
    It’s too complex for a blog.

  372. @371 no Stephen, it was directed at JKeller @368 where I said they both should be brought forward but I apparently Michael thinks the pastor alone should go to the gallows.

    Michael – apparently you are an authority on church discipline and I didn’t know it not having been on your blog before the Bobscapade was announced by yourself and no where else to be seen on the internet, thus my presence here. And why is that? Why is no one else talking about this?

    So where do you think I go to church? If you would have taken the time to READ anything I have written on this thread you would see I no longer go to church.

    I would think 1 Cor 5:11 would cover both pastor and support staff or congregant for that matter when Paul says “anyone” but what do I know? I’m not locked into the church world vortex and could care less how it tries to deal with their pastors’ voracious lust for women and power. In fact the church discipline thing isn’t even an issue as far as I’m concerned; it’s the fairness of dealing with people respectfully and equally that matters to most of the lowly non-clergy. But admitting that will most certainly nullify my right to have an opinion in the eyes of those who are inside the walls of the IC.

    Looking from the outside in, the whole thing looks like a circus to me. And I’m not alone. The whole world looks in and says What?!

    What we have been trying to say all along on this thread is we saw weirdness and things that didn’t add up early on when we did attend CCB, but no one wants to hear that. There is no room to point anything out in this kind of world without looking like you have some kind of problem or don’t have the knitpicky doctrine correct.

    You can have your four walls. Good luck bringing anyone into an eternal relationship with Jesus with this kind of cluster.

    🎪🙈🙉🙊

  373. J Keller,

    I’ve been reporting these issues online for decade and a half.
    The only thing I hold in as much contempt as corrupt leadership is scripture twisting by anyone.
    There are two distinctions that need to be made if we are to deal with these issues biblically.
    The first is that there are different standards for elders in the church than for the rank and file.
    The second is that passages like 1 Cor 5:11 speak to unrepentant sinners, not sinners who have come to repentance.
    The goal of the church is ALWAYS repentance and restoration.
    If we don’t act biblically in all matters, than we have no moral authority to ever act at all.
    Every report I have is that this woman has repented and is under the care of a local church.
    Our only concern at this point should be that she continues to show the fruits of repentance and is restored to the full joy of her salvation.

  374. “Our only concern at this point should be that she continues to show the fruits of repentance and is restored to the full joy of her salvation.”

    Good word Michael. I hear David’s prayer echoed by your concern:

    “Restore to me the joy of your salvation, and uphold me with a willing spirit.” (Ps 51:12)

  375. Thank you, Jean…

  376. I love a good discussion – and thats what a blog can be – picture a family who can discuss topics around a dinner table, who can agree to disagree. In fact I was picturing how many kinds of fellowships there are who could or have had this same discussion through the centuries.

    Deciding whats Biblical or not depends on the interpretation. Some truths we hold self evident – ha! Sorry thats the constitution but we all agree this situation is unbiblical. The steps on how to deal with it are not always so crystal clear or we would all be in the same denomination.

    Each one of us has different Christian educations and backgrounds that make it a challenge to state what is Biblical in a situation. I love that the discussion is taking place amongst thinking Christians who care. The opposite would be apathy. Just like the family dinner table it can get a little heated but that is a good thing. I think Paul would approve.

    You find out what you believe by having to defend it rationally, with examples and overall wisdom. Remember this is not an exact science but a discussion to be able to defend what we believe and to be able to give a reason why. No wonder its such a challenge for Christians to do this and easier to let someone else make all the decisions for us.

    One thing I know I was thanking God that I m still learning from this church even if I was led to leave. It is still teaching me and that is a good thing. Good discussion – now finish your dinner.

  377. “The goal of the church is ALWAYS repentance and restoration” yes, and i do amen that the two are stated in the correct order…

    what i am not sure that i can agree with is that the erring party or parties have the right to privacy… most especially IF they have been in leadership or teaching positions… i love the impulse to chivalry – keeping the woman from public exposure – but that said, i’m not sure that this is always her right… most especially where there has been what must be described as ongoing treacherous conduct against innocent spouses and families… sometimes IMHO one size/answer does not fit all – or so it seems to me

    David said to God, “against Thee only have I sinned.” well, yes, but his repentance was rather public and, for certain, he was going to have to wait until Eternity to ask Uriah’s forgiveness… some, maybe most, sins are not tidy or easily cleaned up – except that the confession made to God which is always job one

  378. Michael… Respectfully… If Bob went to another church and repented, wouldn’t that be problematic? That’s like King David going to another kingdom to confess his problems with Bathsheeba.

    How comforting it must be to not have to face those you sinned against… if the church being all encompassing “the church” then wherever she goes to church ought to hand her over to CCB for discipline so that she might repent against those she hurt at CCB.

    There is a double standard going on here, it is subtle but important… and maybe it’s not so subtle? Why is Bob in Mexico and not here dealing with things… this doesn’t seem like Biblical church discipline, it looks a lot like running away by both parties.

    J Keller, you have a point and it sounds like you’re familiar with the “IC”. I doubt very much you’re more immune than anyone else to having a personal perspective that may change as you learn and grow… careful to not sound like you’re the only one with a walk with Jesus just because you are not “IC”. I would say you are but you have decided it is not for you, that makes the rest of us lacking enlightenment? I support your points regarding accountability, fairness, and having an outside perspective… but the rest you can leave at whatever gate you feel you stand in.

    And Jean, I’m sorry, but it is nearly trite to step into a lively discussion and just say things out of context like “Peace brothers, love, love, love”. Step up and have an opinion on the relevant topic at hand, or write a devotional…. never mind. I have a Bible.

    Michael, thank you for providing this BLOG. Without it, much would remain in the dark and I have actually gained much in learning from others perspectives.

  379. Drawing in the Sand – I apologize that I came across in my tone as better than thou.
    I was having a bit of an overreaction to the one time Michael addressed me personally on his blog in which his tone was condescending because I didn’t quote the Bible correctly.

    I don’t feel that people in the IC are unenlightened idiots. To the contrary I realize that each person is on their own personal path with Jesus and each person hears his voice and hopefully follows it. That could be in a church or in a home study with those He teams you up with. Those of us outside the four walls feel the judgment though from those who choose to stay inside the IC and our opinions are often discounted because of that.

  380. “Michael… Respectfully… If Bob went to another church and repented, wouldn’t that be problematic?”

    Of course it would be.

    Again, there are biblical differences in the standards for leaders.

    In a perfect world, one in which the church was modeled as it is biblically, as a family…both parties would receive care for their souls within the community they sinned in.

    We don’t live in that world and we use a corporate model, not a biblical one.

    What I keep hearing on this thread is that people want to hold this womans feet to the fire…even though by all accounts she has repented and indeed, may even be a victim of a leader using an imbalance of power to bring her into his sin.

    The point being missed is that once a sinner repents, it is the job of the church to care for that person through the process of repentance and restoration, not grind them to powder for the benefit of the congregation.

    We do not know what the leadership of CC Boise has asked of her, they may have even requested that she find another place to worship.

    Finally, it seems that some here want this woman to “pay” for her sins.

    I would submit first that they have already cost her plenty…but more importantly, I would remind you all the Jesus paid for all her sins, and yours and mine.

    Thus, we are free to love this person and her family back to spiritual health.
    Indeed, we are commanded to do so.

  381. “…..What I keep hearing on this thread is that people want to hold this womans feet to the fire…even though by all accounts she has repented …..”

    let me then be clear that my question was directed as to whether or not, in a case such as i have read described here, there should not be a public confession – rather than the right to just privately sneak away to start over as if nothing had happened…
    i was not advocating “holding feet to the fire” as, most certainly confession and repentance should be followed by restoration … compassion for the forgiven is the responsibility of one’s fellow Believers and should be “as if nothing had happened” from that point on … IMHO
    otherwise, one’s fellow Believers are just as guilty … IMHO … again 🙂

    and by that standard, i fear that there are more guilty Believers out there than we know – God help me to see more clearly

  382. Why in the world would we demand public confession of someone for one class of sin and not all sin?
    There is nothing in the Bible that demands such and the expectation that one would have to publicly confess their sins would either empty out the churches or make everyone in them a liar.
    From all reports I have, this woman has confessed her sin to the appropriate people and is walking in repentance.
    The long term effects of her sin will undoubtedly follow her for years to come.
    Our job (the job of the local church she is part of) is to encourage and affirm her in her journey, not place demands on her that Christ does not.

  383. Hello Everyone,

    I have not visited this blog for quite a while, I do appreciate the dialog and earnest direction of seeking God and building up one another.
    I want to say a few things as I promised a dear friend that I would help stop any gossiping about this situation with Bob Caldwell and the other woman. I have known both for many years and I am a close friend to the other woman. Coach #351 not everything you listed is accurate because of this “my understanding from a friend” comment, this is how gossiping and pain starts. I am letting you all know that this gal is a dear sister, she has repented, she clearly understands the pain that was caused. Who do you think finally went to the leadership for counsel and help to keep a manipulating Bob from controlling her life, it was her. With that said I want you all to know the truth so gossiping and exposing her can end. She is reaching out to those she needs to for forgiveness and restoration. She is completely humble and broken and is a pure example of someone who has fallen at the feet of Jesus. This is all I have to say. I hope you all will keep her in prayer for continued healing, she has exposed her heart and needs our prayers and to stop any gossiping. God is already using her; her example is so pure and honest and we need to extend grace and love towards her.
    Bob slithers away like a snake and he is a scumbag.

  384. #383 – we don’t demand public confession of sin… for the most part our sins are between us and God alone… except 🙂
    there are instances where one’s sin has impacted lives, both public and private, in such a way that a public confession clears the air and makes certain that the rumors and unknown wounds are addressed… or so it seems to me…
    thinking… thinking…
    i am a woman working in the church, doing a pretty good job and am held in some esteem by the congregation as a God fearing and serving person… what the congregation doesn’t know is that for years i have been the other woman, the mistress of the pastor… now it is rumored thru the congregation that Pastor Good Guy has a mistress of many years – many are thrown off and their trust in God as well as old Pastor Good Guy is off balanced, at the least, and some are so wounded that they begin to question their discernment of what really is good and evil…
    what Pastor Good Guy does now is up to him, but i am not a victim, i am/was a participant in this and i have had a public persona in this fellowship…
    so, yes, i still think that this calls for my confession to the congregation, my repentance and, most probably (which in this case was done) a move on down the road

    but that’s just me, putting myself in someone else’s shoes as best i can and thinking on it…

  385. How would we know the process and pain and steps the woman involved had gone through unless it were for this blog and interested participants and writers coming forward and speaking what they hope will bring truth?

    How will the congregation who were there long term ever know or get understanding of what happened in this scenario that was by two public people in this ministry who were in leadership positions?

    When you bond people in the way we do now to our celebrity – one man Pastoral System with all their ‘personal stories’ about their wive and family through the years – 52 weeks a year – why wouldn’t they have a vested interest in knowing what the end of the story was as Paul Harvey says? Do they suddenly just disengage their hearts and spirits that are deeply entrenched in this Lead Pastors lives?

    Don’t you think thats a bit too much of any human being who is not a robot?

  386. Thanks to There is Hope and em again for taking the time to try to bring more information to this story – which again is not a church member or participant. You are adding to the fact pile that will have to be sorted through for a long time to get the total picture.

    I find that we have already heard such a wide range of stories already! There has not been one consistent story yet – much like a 20 car pile up on the freeway. Everyone has a new perspective each time we hear a report.

    Legal professionals will tell you the truth lies somewhere in between!

  387. Wow, as a long time attendee of CCB and someone who Pastor Bob has had a profound impact upon.. I just don’t know what to say!? I feel empty inside and like I’ve been duped. Truly want to believe that it wasn’t all B.S but it may have been sadly. Also I think I had an odd feeling that there was something funny going on with one of the women ( similar looking to Kathy but younger) who was involved in the India ministry. Never could quite put a finger on it but whenever I saw her I felt that way. Someone tell me.. we’re all sinners and saved by grace but how in the world was Bob able to live a double life for over a decade???

  388. #387 – one thing that this thread should have produced (a good thing) is a frame of reference for all of us who have thoughtfully read all the nuances rehearsed here…
    now, as life unfolds for us, this thread should result in both strength and compassion… IMHO …
    there is such a thing as right and wrong, the product of most sins are not easily worked through to a good conclusion when they’ve involved others, but as Michael and others have pointed out, they can be worked thru and grace and holiness can meet to resolve and, hopefully dissolve, the products of sin

  389. This is a big blot on organized religion, so sad. Hail to the true King… Jesus!

  390. RSFB, thinking on that question you just posed about a double life…
    one of the great human foibles that i have witnesses over the years is our ability to lie to ourselves… we find it easiest to believe what we want to believe and to rationalize to justify what is really only serving our own appetites and insecurities… and, boy does the devil know it and play on it… the man was not walking with God, but i’d bet – dunno – that he told himself he was…
    without grace we’d be in a sorry mess … somehow, i think God knows that 🙂

  391. Also Bob’s sermons definitely lacked saltiness the last handful of years, I thought this was due to India being his true calling and burnout on his part not this. Someone tell me Pastor Bob was in it for the right reasons despite his fall???

  392. #391 thanks for the response. I truly viewed Bob as a father figure like many, what in your opinion led him astray? His celebrity?

  393. RFSB, lack of accountability. He was in a place where he either couldn’t or wouldn’t confess his temptations when they arose. He was too big to be corrected, too exalted to be humble. God help him.

    I am as hurt as you. I stopped going to CCB. I just want to move on from the whole mess.

  394. Yeah we started attending in 04′ and quit right after he stepped down but had been contemplating it for a couple yrs. like I say, really felt like he was going through the motions at the end. Found the church through pure word and like I said in an earlier post.. Bob was a hero because of our similar backgrounds. I want to believe he is a heartfelt guy that just got ensnared, have a hard time stomaching him being some kinda wolf in sheeps clothing 🙁

  395. RSFB –
    @395 The saved and healed part of most likely was in it for the good reasons you are hoping for. The untransformed or let’s say yet-to-be transformed part of Bob must have got in the way of that. A friend who once worked with him put it this way – he was healed to the extent he allowed God to heal him from his growing up years.

    I’m wondering if we would be seeing so many pastors falling like flies if they had submitted themselves to thorough counseling as unresolved problems from their pasts presented themselves any given time in their ministries. We’ve assumed these leaders were healed and set free because of what they told us in stories and teachings on Sundays and Wednesdays.

    I can feel your pain in realizing Bob could have been living a double life over the years. The hardest part about having a hero is when you realize they are seriously flawed just like the rest of us. The one constant we have is Jesus – He is the perfect one. He won’t fall into sin and He deserves to be the only hero of our lives. We have all had other heros and we are each learning what it is to let that idea go. As we keep looking at Jesus and to Him, our faith will remain intact and He will lead us to safety.

  396. Meant to say the saved and healed part of Bob in the comment above

  397. #393 – the simple answer, the most basic one, to that question is that this man, like us all, carries an old sin nature throughout this life … beyond that i don’t know ‘why’ he indulged so egregiously – was he/is he a Believer? all we can do is pray for him – he certainly needs to repent… to loosely quote a famous old sermon: “it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of an angry God” – thank God for His mercies and hope … and grace

  398. Do churches like CCB ever offer any kind support group for people who are reeling from the announcement that the pastor they have supported for years is now no longer there? especially if it’s due to a betrayal of trust. Couldn’t they offer some kind of open forum that is like a blog but more like a small group set up for sharing and prayer? When I read what people on this thread are going through it breaks your heart and a blog can only do so much given that a lot of the people succumb to guilt thinking this is all gossip and don’t come back for that reason. Not only that reason.

    I’ve never heard of a church offering that but there may be some that do that and if so how did it go? Did it help? CCB might be able to heal together if they tried something like that.

  399. J Keller,

    It hasn’t happened in any circumstance I know of.
    To do so would challenge the ecclesiology that created the problem in the first place…

  400. Michael,

    I didn’t think so but thought there may be other types of churches that would.

    Can you imagine a’week night open-mic support forum where people struggling with this type of thing can air their feelings and frustrations? The lead pastor could be the opening commenter by saying how this is affecting him in an honest way and what he is reading or doing to get through it. He could have one of his asst pastors moderate. Yes it could get messy or out of hand just like a blog does sometimes, but what is the worst thing that can happen? It unifies the leaders and people in trying to process something together.

    It could be a risk worth taking for the sake of the emotional health for all involved.

    It would be better than another sermon that has nothing to do with the elephant in the room as if nothing has really happened.

  401. To those asking recently on this blog thread about what led Bob to commit adultery, please understand that having sex outside of marriage was not a singular marker in his self destruction. It is part of a pattern from his self consumed, “must be in charge” addictive personality that he did not allow God to heal. He was always deceptive, manipulative and freaked out about how he was perceived, all the while trying to create the illusion of just the opposite. He was a victim of his own making. And victimized hundreds over the years. The people around him that tried to hold him accountable were each eliminated by his method of sowing disqualifying “evidence” against them. He did not have peers. He made each person that got close think they were, but was only grooming for his purposes. He was somewhat ignorant in this regard to his own level of sin.

    I cannot overstate how this was always there. If you did not get into the inner workings, you believed the image he projected. I watched over the years as I believed in the image until I could no longer deny the mountains of evidence that I had dismissed. By loving friends I was gently confronted. Each of us were groomed to be a part of supporting that image. If we did not tow the line, we were chastised, maligned and made to think we were the problem.

    Classic abuser behavior. The female party in what is being called the affair was also groomed to maintain Bobs image. As she gets counseling and becomes healed by Gods grace and provision, she will see all the ways that he groomed her, then trapped her, until she was caught. Then he blamed her.

    As a side note, the poster that gave the account from the female participant, thanks for the accurate details. It is necessary to know the truth. Please do a study of how the simple use of the word gossip has been misused by both innocent and abusers to shut down all conversation. Gossip is defined by the intent of the heart. It is not, however genuine concern and nessicity of bringing truth and fact finding. Gossip is such a classic way of twisting Gods word, like Satan did. We have learned not to be shamed out of seeking truth, and the whole story. Otherwise, we could say God is a gossip for all the sins He had the Bible authors document. As Michael often says, make your own application.

  402. I think those of us that were longtime attendees that literally gave thousands of $ to this train wreck are owed some answers.. what longtime evidence are you speaking of re: Bob??? I’d like to know what you’re referring to?

  403. We’re there financial improprieties as well???

  404. #402 makes a good observation concerning gossip… however, wherever there is talk that is derogatory, it should be incumbent upon those who can do so, to set the record straight where possible

  405. RSFB –

    Your questions are valid and why I think that CCB could be holding some kind of support meeting(s) for longtime attendees like you, as ludicrous as it sounds. It would give the leadership a forum to be honest – tell everything – then deal with it together with the people not off in some conference room apart from the people. But no, let’s keep the secrets secret and try to continue as if nothing happened. Then later down the road run the risk of falling into the similar pits because there is no transparency.

    What a perfect opportunity to clean house and begin with a clean slate. Why would they want to bring all Bob’s baggage with them?

    I know it will be said that it’s more complicated than that, but you have to start somewhere. It could be a complete cluster but it’s a “train wreck” already.

  406. Michael,

    “It hasn’t happened in any circumstance I know of.
    To do so would challenge the ecclesiology that created the problem in the first place…”

    Very Revealing comment. It is why I have advocated that Calvary Chapel, in its present incarnation be dissolved. Bob Coy and Bob Caldwell are only the more recent and public examples of the kind of rot that has existed inside this “association” for decades because of lax moral standards from the top down. There is much that still needs to be exposed. (There have been attempts to cover up cases of child molestation in some churches–including CCCM.) Though these perverts may try to hide–God is not mocked. If they will not come out and confess their sin–God, Himself, will expose them. There will be more. Knowing human nature, however, the rats and roaches that continue to live in the dark, like Coy and Caldwell (and those that enable them), will fight tooth and nail before allowing exposure–unfortunately–making the process rather a lengthy one.

    I wrote before that my desire is to see that whatever is necessary will be done to prevent these kinds of abominations from ever happening again. Infact, I rather like what you have proposed on your sight, Michael. ( http://michaelnewnham.com/?page_id=22711 ) It is well thought out and likely a product of both experiencing and watching too many of these situations play out over the years.

    I went through painful separations with not one–but four CC’s. I gave the Reader’s Digest version awhile back and will not share it again at this juncture because it would not be fair to take the spotlight from this situation or those that are presently suffering and deserve to be comforted. I would say that any organization that is too weak to not only see the corruption inside itself and call it what it is or even deal with it properly when discovered, is too sick to continue. It’s time to start over.

    I think the ongoing CC split is good. It has the purpose of identifying the different factions and allows them to go their separate ways. What would be bad would be if it is done with animus. I will let God convict hearts where applicable. However, neither side will survive if they take even a micron of the CC leaven with them. (The bad fruit of the sick, top heavy Moses Model continues to leave many wounded in its wake as it has at CCB.) Infact, I will go even further. I would say, if Brodersen (now CCGN), or the other faction (now CCA) want to go forward, they need to step up and do much of what I will delineate. They need to acknowledge the sins of Calvary Chapel and make it clear that they will no longer follow the pattern they were given. They need to “clean house” and those who are discovered to be disqualified over sexual sin or abuse issues need to be shown the door–EVEN IF some of these were their friends! (Our fidelity is to God. Not a sinful man!) They need to call out to those who have been disenfranchised through mistreatment of any kind and validate their pain. Like the Holocaust–don’t be stupid enough to say it never happened. There’s too much evidence. To try and say differently in light of all the reports would assume the congregation is stupid and again subjugates them. It would reveal a low view of the people you would claim to want to serve and work against any belief that you had a shepherd’s heart. I would reject any pastor who attempted to do that and I would recommend to my brethren that they also reject any pastor who would not deal honestly with what has happened to the legions of people that have been harmed by Calvary Chapel’s policies.

    I would say to those who are hurting in he wake of the CCB debacle, that when the smoke clears and when you feel strong again, you may find yourself praising God. I don’t mean because evil got far enough to cause you harm, of course. I am talking about the new way in which you will now have to approach your faith and your life. If you resist the urge to be bitter and hold to the fact that God can redeem anything–if you let Him–these very painful episodes can be turned into opportunities for a cleansing of yourselves and your attitudes. They can, when approached in brokenness, incite tremendous growth. I know. I have lived it. The verse that played inside of my mind over and over was that there is one mediator between God and man–Christ Jesus. (Not my pastor!) I went back to explore my own relationship with God and realized that my relationship with Him produced just as many worthy ideas as those who claimed to stand above me in the past. I came away with a new confidence that God could speak to me directly as I read the Bible, prayed or conversed with another believer. I have seen the most incredible commentary here by people who were congregants of CCB. This testifies that you are going to be okay and that God has probably worked more into you than you realize. You just needed a forum for God to use those gifts and talents. Obviously–CCB was not it.

    Because confusion can sometimes creep in, I will offer some disclaimers in this paragraph. I do believe there are some CC pastors who are genuine and who are just as appalled at the present state of things as I am. My problem is that many have not been public enough about their disagreement with the sicker CC policies and many have ignored the issue of their victims. I also believe that fellowship with other believers is the best scenario–if you can find one that is safe and balanced. (After the kind of trauma one has experienced in the Caldwell aftermath–you’re not obligated to be stupid or in a rush.)

    I think God is preparing His church for what is to come so that we may stand strong and completely “in Him” (not on a denomination, or, “of Paul or Apollos”, etc., etc.). I found this verse in the Amplified rather edifying: “Rather, let our lives lovingly express truth in all things–speaking truly, dealing truly living truly. Enfolded in love, LET US GROW UP IN EVERY WAY AND IN ALL THINGS INTO HIM, Who is the Head, [even] Christ, the Messiah, the Anointed One.”, Ephesians 4:15.

    Your faith and your hope have been temporarily stifled, but be of good cheer. This is not the end–it is likely a beginning.

  407. “I think God is preparing His church for what is to come so that we may stand strong and completely “in Him” (not on a denomination, or, “of Paul or Apollos”, etc., etc.). I found this verse in the Amplified rather edifying: “Rather, let our lives lovingly express truth in all things–speaking truly, dealing truly living truly. Enfolded in love, LET US GROW UP IN EVERY WAY AND IN ALL THINGS INTO HIM, Who is the Head, [even] Christ, the Messiah, the Anointed One.”, Ephesians 4:15.

    Your faith and your hope have been temporarily stifled, but be of good cheer. This is not the end–it is likely a beginning.”

    Beautifully said JM! As we hold fast to our faith in Jesus we become testimonies of this very thing. He makes all things new.

  408. Kudos to you, too, J Keller! He does, indeed, make all things new!

  409. RSFB @ #403
    My comment about mountains of evidence was in reference to behavior patterns. I came to see the patterns after a friend gave me a great book, Healing for Adult children of Alcoholics, for an extended family issue. As I studied the book and applied its findings and explanations to my extended family situation, the concepts gained traction in my thinking process. Then one day, the Lord literally moved my gaze from that situation to Bob Caldwell. The veil of his deception was, for me, lifted. Because I had learned the patterns and issues in this other situation, I quickly was able to understand his issues, that I had been giving the benefit of the doubt to him. However, I was unable to see that led all the way to betraying his vows to his wife. I simply thought he would never cross that line. Boy was I wrong.

  410. JM @ #407

    Thank you for your outline and call to change in the institutional church establishment called Calvary Chapel. It is all well though out. The part that touches me deeply is calling for the institution to tell the whole truth and acknowledge the pain caused and that the hurt we all feel at being hoodwinked is something they need to make restitution for. That is biblical.

    J Keller, you also have outlined how the church culture could change by getting the whole truth out and dealing with it together.Excellent way to forgive, followed by genuine reconciliation. As you both stated, the culture has been to let the dumb sheep know only what there little minds can handle, and we will handle the rest. “Trust us”. We did that. That’s what got us where we are. Change or be left in the dust. God is not mocked.

  411. “They need to acknowledge the sins of Calvary Chapel and make it clear that they will no longer follow the pattern they were given. They need to “clean house” and those who are discovered to be disqualified over sexual sin or abuse issues need to be shown the door–EVEN IF some of these were their friends! (Our fidelity is to God. Not a sinful man!) They need to call out to those who have been disenfranchised through mistreatment of any kind and validate their pain. ”

    None of the above will ever happen and it is a waste of time and energy to pursue it.
    I will write an article explaining why soon…

  412. much prayer and fasting is needed here.

  413. praying for those who were hurt by this and have come here to find peace….may you find it here.

  414. CTruth – thank you for taking the time to write out more insights from your experience there. You gave us a great overview of what led to this present situation. It is from years of personal research being on the front lines which makes it all the more poignant. It is hard to dismiss all these very personal stories that are told one after another. A mountain of evidence revealing a pattern.

    After year away from the church that caused me great pain, I agree with JM that you and others here will someday see it as something to thank God for. It comes in waves as does your healing and insights. Don’t rush it!

    I love how you are teaching others about the grooming process that is a common thread with every types of abuse. The more we learn and understand that principle – the more truth we have to teach others how to protect themselves.

    The subject here – Spiritual Abuse. The best book I can recommend that helped me: ‘The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse -Recognizing & Escaping Spiritual Manipulation and False Spiritual Authority” written by David Johnson and Jeff Van Vonderen. It helps you understand what happened to you. Wow how this would have helped this situation as we’ve heard from insiders to this situation!

    I drove by CC Boise yesterday and saw all the cars and people going in and out of the building and i felt sad for them and mad too. One man built all this and one man is taking it down in so many ways. Here’s to healing inside & outside the building! and writing out your own story is an amazingly important part of healing. The next step is to tell someone else which you’ve done. Great job CTruth!

  415. I have refrained from anymore comments mainly because I have been angry.
    Angry that in the 23 years I have attended CCB, it was all a facade
    I could share my story, the personal experiences I had with Bob. I left the church for about 10 years over some very hurtful comments he made to me during some counseling sessions. The underlying theme was submit, submit, submit.
    I’m ready to move on. I could spin my wheels all day rehashing the anger and pain, questioning things and wondering why.
    We recently met with Tucker.
    I was impressed and left the meeting with a new hope.
    He was very transparent and truly humble.
    I won’t go in to everything that was shared.
    He assured us that Calvary Chapel Boise is now only a name on the side of the building.
    They are doing away with the Moses Model.
    The by laws are all being re written and anybody can see them, make suggestions and requested a meeting with the Elder’s regarding them.
    The finances will no longer be a secret. Anyone can now see those.
    There will be small church assembly the end of February where he will be addressing issues and concerns.
    He said he wanted to get through the holidays and let the dust settle.
    I feel he is taking the church in the right direction.

  416. *ALL church assembly where anyone is welcome, not small *

  417. *ALL church meeting where anyone is welcome, not small *

  418. HOPEFUL, is what you say true? I want to believe this but I’m skeptical.

  419. Wow, Hopeful! If all that you were told will end up being true, it will be a historical event. I also encourage that there will be an actual, physical effort to seek out those who are so discouraged that they didn’t want to come back thinking it would be more of the same. I would say especially seek those that were treated badly by Bob the Low Life, as you were. Here he was putting himself over you and he wasn’t worthy to untie your sandals. Tucker has a tall order ahead of him. We should all pray that he will be a catalyst for healing.

  420. I can understand your skepticism.
    I was very involved at Calvary for many years. I was also in leadership. Not a paid staff position.
    I left for about 10 years.
    We recently returned 5 years ago,
    naively thinking things were getting better.
    Bob kept me at arms length though.
    I mostly dealt with the other Pastors as of recently.
    I was pretty blunt with Tucker.
    I wanted answers, and I didn’t mince my words.
    I was correct in who the “mistress”
    was. It broke my heart as I have known her for 25 years.
    She truly was controlled and manipulated by Bob.
    She tried to get away many times.
    She has reconciled with her husband and family, very repentive and doing well
    I questioned if the church would help Cathy in any way needed.
    Tucker assured me that they fully support Cathy, but at this point she is in seclusion and refusing to see anyone.
    I asked about a cover up. Why hadn’t anyone come forward with all the other issues.
    Tucker said NO ONE challenged Bob.
    If they did, they were dismissed.
    He also reminded me of Pharoah and compared Bob to him.
    He has cut all ties with Bob and the likes.
    They are still weeding out.
    He even told me to read over the bo laws and if I see a red flag to email him with what I think needs changed.
    His exact words, “If God decides to close these doors, then so be it. If God or the elders, or congregation decide
    I am not to be the lead Pastor, I’m okay with that. I just want to serve God.”
    The all church meeting is going to be announced soon. I believe it is the last Tuesday in Feb.

  421. Hopeful @416 and @421

    Wow. This is indeed epic if the leadership goes through with this. Good good work in finding out what’s what. Maybe Bob didn’t know quite what he was getting when he (thought he) chose Tucker. His youth and passion to remain true to God may serve him well in this time.

    Your story is confirming what Coach said about L being controlled. So that gives us insight and is consistent with behaviors others have endured during Bobs tenure.

    Cathy being in seclusion is something we all have sympathy for. Our prayers are with her and for her and her family. I hope the church does right by her.

    The meeting planned at the end of February is the start of something good. Will pray that as they open their doors to honesty and truth (a completely unheard of thing in CC history from what the bloggers here are saying) that it will be a new beginning for all of you. May God have His way and may any tendency to control the situation subside.

    I was telling my friend that this whole debacle descended on the CCB people, and those of us near, like the winter storms dumped snow and ice on the Treasure Valley. It’s like a double portion of oppression heavy and disabling. May the Lord come in and raise up His standard like He has been known to do down through the ages, using what the enemy meant for harm somehow for good. He is the only one who can do that. He alone is exalted.

  422. J Keller, you said it. “Epic”. Was proselytized by CC over 43 years ago. Became more involved 38 years ago. Coincidentally–that’s how long I have waited to see righteousness finally prevail inside of this leavenous institution. May this miracle really happen. Thank you “Hopeful” for sharing this incredible information.

  423. Michael,
    Sincerest apoplgies – if I could email you I would ask you to remove my last comment asap.

  424. My husband and I have been members of CCB for 35 years and are very familiar with Bob and his dealings with being challenged if I can put it that way. I am still heartbroken and angry over this., I have good days and bad days like many I am sure. Bob married my husband and I, baptized some of our 5 kids and married a few of them. I was saved in this church and God used both Bob and Cathy to minister love to us and our family. We were a small church for many years.

    Hopeful 416 and 421,
    Thank you for sharing, I was just talking to my husband about all this Sunday night and was contemplating on making an appointment with Tucker, but a bit hesitant as I had already emailed him twice which he promptly replied reassuring me of my concerns, however as time goes on, there are more questions and an earnest desire to see transparency in this church. The comments back in the “Bob days” were always “that is the way Bob does things”. I have seen many people hurt by his abuse and if he found someone that would make him look better he would wheel them in and use them until he was challenged, but it was also done in such a subtle way. And one other thing that has pissed me off about this church was the lack of the voice of women. (Another Bob thing, another story) pretty sure there will be a change now. Women have a voice and are gifted and need to be heard. On several occasions over the past few years I wanted to move to a different church as it was clear it was the “Bob show” and even though my husband and I would pray about it God did not direct us to leave. My husband challenged Bob a few times, not so much face to face but his walk and geniality and compassion with people, hope this makes sense.
    Bob at one time was a gifted man. There was a comment you say that Tucker said Bob was not ever challenged (yes that is true from Tuckers perception as Tucker was not part of the church for several years and during those years Bob did his usual use of people and dismiss them). And yes, if anyone challenged Bob they were gone as Tucker said. Way back in the 1980s when Frank Reese was assistant pastor we would always say that Frank balanced Bob out and he did, it was like the perfect match but of course over time (years) Frank was gone (the first to leave) just like many others under the pretense “God was calling them to a new ministry/etc”. But in this story God gave Margie, Frank’s wife a vison (another incredible story of God’s grace).
    Both my husband and I have and were involved in different ministries over the years,
    As for Tucker, I honestly believe and know that his heart is for preaching and sharing the word of God however the Lord leads him. If I was in his shoes I might want to run from this whole situation but God is God and he is a good God and when we are weak He is strong. We have known Tucker since he was a little guy and both my husband and I at times were his Sunday school teachers and he remembers that and on occasions has thanked us. I mean that is an awesome feeling when a young adult reminds you of that.
    God still assure me of John 14:27

    On a final note: J Keller 422 I do not think it was necessary for you to expose L’s name. She has been through enough.

  425. Hope@425 Yes I sincerely apologize – it was an accident believe it or not. I was looking for a way to email Michael to ask him to remove my comment but don’t see any way.

  426. J. Keller, This was clearly on your heart as I see you posted your comment to Michael 3 minutes before my post which I did not see yours till now as I typed my message in word copied, pasted and moved on. Hopefully Michael can fix it and Michael if you can, can you delete my last sentence.

  427. Hope In Him – you are rightI! I didn’t even realize I did it till I thought I’d check the blog and saw JM’s comment which caused me to reread mine. Could barely sleep last night once I saw that. Usually there is an email address on a blog for the administrator in case needed and I searched everywhere here to no avail, thus the public request to remove my comment. Help Lord!

  428. Wow, the female is exactly who I suspected and sadly her husband is a pretty recognizable guy at the church.. so sad. We’re all sinners but pretty low by bob. Betrayed the trust of a lot of people, still just mind boggling HOW this went on aslong as it did. There had to have been people that knew and how awkward it would of been when Bob, Kathy and the mistress were in India together 🙁 . I guess shame on those of us that placed Bob on a pedestal, I DID.. I admit it. The arrogance of Bob to go after this guys wife whom sat in the church every Sunday and listened to the bullcrap.. WOW. Interesting times

  429. Jesus reigns!!!!!

  430. Below is a direct quote from a booklet published by Calvary Chapel called, “The Ministry of the Assisting Pastor”. It absolutely violates scripture. There are other Calvary Chapel publications delineating the “Moses’ Principle” of pastoring.

    “7. Never Gossip
    Gossip is a sin that most of us feel we are not guilty of, and which most of us are very guilty of. Gossip may be defined as saying anything negative, whether true or not, to anyone about the pastor or about the ministry. If there are things wrong, take it to the Lord in prayer. Tell absolutely no one, including your spouse. Do not repeat anything that would cast aspersion on the ministry in any way. Doing so dishonors Christ and His cause.
    But, you say, what do you do if there are real problems? Pray about them and forget them. If that doesn’t work, take your concerns directly and only to the pastor himself, and share with him honestly. If that doesn’t work, resign, and move on. Under no circumstances should you ever say anything negative about the pastor or the ministry to anyone, even after you’ve quit. In a situation where something in the church is so completely wrong that the sheep in the body are in spiritual danger, then say nothing to anybody, resign, and move on. If the church is a Calvary Chapel affiliate, then take your concerns and share them privately with Pastor Chuck or with Oden Fong, then drop it; leave it alone. Let them handle it. Trust God. He’ll correct the situation. But do not gossip. It is a terrible sin before God.”

    Here is a link to this information: http://c317808.r8.cf1.rackcdn.com/TheMinistryOfAssistingPastor.pdf

    Below are only a few applicable verses. There are soooo many more.
    “And do not participate in the unfruitful deeds of darkness, but instead even expose them;…But all things become visible when they are exposed by the light, ….” Ephesians 5:11 & 13a (NASB)
    “But he who practices the truth comes to the light,…” John 3:21 (NASB)

  431. I saw all this coming 25 years ago, all the way back in the early days of Bob’s Ministry. I was a young Christian and quickly became friends with Bob as we had so many interests in common. As my wife and I got more and more involved on the “inside”, I became troubled by Bob’s controlling and manipulative personality. Deep in my gut, I knew something was very wrong, but we stayed for 10 years as we had made so many good friends and enjoyed his teaching. As time went on, I saw things that made me question Bob’s motives for being a pastor. The more closely I watched, the more frustrated I became, to the point of sheer anger and outrage. I saw borderline “cult” tendencies in the making. Pressure mounted on me to become one of the “pillars” of the church, he wanted to “groom” me for a leadership position, as another blogger wrote about. But I wouldn’t drink Bob’s “Kool-Aid” and he knew it. I confided in one of the elders about my concerns and he gave me an illustration of the Calvary model: He said “It’s like we are an arrow…Bob is the arrow head and we all fall behind him to further his vision for the ministry.” I replied “Even if he’s wrong? Are we to blindly follow him then?” He replied “Yes, as we submit to the pastor as unto God.” Right there I knew I had to prepare to leave with my family. Then the “shunning” began. Not so much by him, but by his minions. I was told that I would “backslide”. I felt like I had a “bull’s eye” painted on my fore-head. So, we quietly left. I was so crushed by the experiences I had with Bob and his “minions” that it literally took years to get over the anger. I moved on with my life and realized that my relationship with God was more important than my relationship with so-called pastors. By Bob’s own admission, he was a drug dealer before he came to the Lord. Even though God’s grace extends to all, I never thought he should have been allowed to become a pastor. I strongly believe that if one had seared his conscious so bad to ruin other peoples lives with drugs, that as a lifetime consequence, the person should never have a position as a pastor. Even, way back then I said to myself, “So he used to deal drugs…hmmm…now he deals Jesus…” In closing, my heart goes out to all who have been hurt and conned by him and his minions. My heart goes out to Cathy and family. All I know is that God remains on the throne, He will not be mocked and that I will never put my faith in any man, especially pastors, ever again.

  432. I’ve edited the post in question and believe it to have been an honest mistake.

  433. “All I know is that God remains on the throne, He will not be mocked and that I will never put my faith in any man, especially pastors, ever again.” amen – but still…
    faith and trust in man should go on, but it should always be measured by the sure knowledge that we all can fail and disappoint and some among us are just plain charlatans bent on using the Church for personal gains… IMNSHO 🙂

  434. Wow!
    I am in awe of this Ast. Pastor guideline booklet.
    I had no idea.
    How could anyone follow this?
    How is this not like a cult?
    So basically, the Sr. Pastor is above God, and should never be questioned?
    It even says the Ast. Pastor should be his personal servant.
    I plan to bring this before Tucker and get his opinion on it.
    I’m speechless.

  435. HOPEFUL,
    Do you know if that meeting will be open forum or not? I’d like to raise a few questions I need answered before I decide whether or not to stay at Calvary.

  436. I do not know if it will be open forum.
    He just told me he will be speaking to the congregation and explaining the new by laws.
    He did say he wanted input on the by laws, and that if something raised a red flag with me, he wants to know.

  437. I must confess that this thread has been both fascinating and a rebuke to me.
    We’ve covered this ground so many times over the years…yet here is a group of folks to whom it’s all brand new.
    Looks like it’s time to either republish some articles or write new ones…

  438. Praying for those in boise
    Bart
    Tam nal
    J keller
    S miller
    Oh no
    hopeful
    dyno
    rsfb
    there’s hope in him
    c truth
    cn
    drawin in the sand
    Alice
    Believer in boise
    Duel citizen
    Sad news

    Praying for you all we are sad for your loss and pain but happy to have you here

  439. Michael–

    I have only been here a small while, too. However, I was wondering if there was an exchange of this type on your blog previously among the people who suffered when Bob Coy’s sin blew up like a nuke? If so, would it be helpful to those in pain from the fallout of Caldwell’s similar brand of nuke?

    (I thank you ahead for any thoughts you may have on this.)

  440. JM,

    The closest thing to what we’ve seen here with the Caldwell mess was back in 2004-2006 with the Skip Heitzig/Pete Nelson debacle in Albuquerque.

    When the Coy scandal broke we were inundated with those who supported Coy…

  441. “When the Coy scandal broke we were inundated with those who supported Coy…”

    Yes, it was almost as though Coy was a victim. And the elders saw fit to arrange a “care” program for him.

  442. This is an overview of the Heitzig mess from Christianity Today that I helped work on…

    http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2006/mayweb-only/119-12.0.html?ctlredirect=true

  443. Ah, Yes. The Skippy Two Step Two Face Dance. (That’s what we “lovingly” called it in this household.) People would learn a LOT if they did research and found out all the crossovers on who is a board member of whose ministry. In the hands of the corrupt, they are just mutual admiration societies set up to keep each other rich and in power. It appears you have uncovered similar scum at GFA. Shocked! Not! Nelson did a favor to himself and his future by leaving.

    …PEOPLE SUPPORTED COY?!!!!! LOOKING FOR MY BARF BAG!!!! UNBELIEVABLE!!

    …COY A VICTIM?!!!!! LOOKING FOR ANOTHER BARF BAG!!!!

  444. Here’s another one that got the reporter and I in hot water…

    http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2007/march/7.53.html

  445. Michael – I will bet that I read the first article you referenced, but I will read it again. OMG! I definitely read the Day of Reckoning article! Everyone should read that. Very, very needed!!!! In some circles, people have complained that CT is problematic in their reporting. However, when the “good” (actually blind, self-righteous) people refuse to clean out their own house because of mislaid loyalties and rationalization of sin, God will use those that they disdain to do it. Kudos to you and all who exposed that slobber! Here is another interesting article that not everyone may have seen:

    http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/01/26/calvary-chapel-s-tangled-web.html

  446. BTW , Michael. Are you able to say why you got in “hot water” over the Day of Reckoning article?

  447. JM,

    Back in the day….we were very alone in this type of reporting, especially on CC.

    This blog was doing about a 1.25 million hits a quarter and we had seven or eight people moderating the place 24 hours a day.

    Whenever there was a dispute over facts (as there was in the Day of Reckoning piece) all hell would break loose.

    Between that and the CSN scandal we got a death threat at least once a week.

    It’s been an amazing journey, but one that came at a deep cost.

    They said we wouldn’t last…but here we all are and CC is in it’s death throes…

  448. It appears that the main writer “pulled his punches” and did not “out” Chuckie completely. People should be grateful for what is NOT in that article. I suspect you could have named a lot of names.

  449. Oh Dang! You “outed” the Kessler thing, too! Sir, you have been pummeled for quite awhile, then. Death threats? Ridiculous! How Christian of them. I confess that, making a stink behind the scenes for almost 40 years has caused no small toll upon my constitution, so I more than believe you saying it has taken a great toll upon you, too. No one could overstate that. You have somehow been catapulted to the forefront of this thing and have taken on something that I have, at times, referred to as a veritable stronghold. (Yes–the unclean kind.) It’s possible that when your book comes out and has all the verification, a lot of people will be contemplating jumping off of bridges because their idols–and their idolatry–will be exposed. Hopefully, they will simply start over and learn to have unadulterated fellowship with God again. May God send you strength and comfort for what you do.

  450. JM,

    My hope is that my book will aid people in understanding how these systems work…and how to avoid getting involved in them to begin with.
    It’s been one hell of a ride…

  451. Michael, have you been informed of Caldwell’s role with GFA?

  452. covered,

    it’s been very murky…along with his part in the Abedini debacle…

  453. It was brought to my attention that he was very active behind the scenes when all hell was breaking loose with GFA last year. One of his roles (as I understand it), was to gather information from other CC pastor’s involved with KP and assess the damage. It is my understanding that he didn’t see enough evidence to support any type of action against GFA or KP. Within weeks after Bob’s investigative efforts, the wheels came off GFA. My assumption is that Bob’s mind as well as other parts of his body were preoccupied…

  454. My question would be who he was allegedly collecting information for…my guess would also be that Caldwells sin was known to at least some of his peers…

  455. To add to my already “eccentric” upbringing–my family was influenced by a cult. I won’t go into everything, but when I chose Christ as a youth, it almost cost me my life. I eventually escaped and landed homeless in the OC. I went to CC for help because when I was proselytized years before, I was told it was like heaven on earth. Unfortunately, it was only true if you drank the kool-aid and didn’t ask questions. The fear of ever ending up like those who bought into the cult lies made me not trust people who didn’t give full disclosure when I asked questions. (It was sickly familiar.) That should explain why I traveled through 4 CC’s looking for some kind of transparency, as well as the caustic comments I made in many previous threads. Thankfully, during that early, homeless time, I ended up at the Salvation Army Hospitality House in Santa Ana for awhile and am glad that I owed CC next to nothing. They could have grabbed me by the psyche and made me into one their “adherents”.

    Ye shall know them by their fruit. Can we now say”cult” or at least, “cult-like” ,and “Calvary Chapel” in the same sentence? Look at the fruit!

    Michael, this book is sorely needed. I hope and pray that it will be able to be available soon–and that people will listen to the evidence and sober suggestions you will provide.

  456. Michael took quite a beating in the Skip days! Those were difficult days to be sure.

  457. Thank you, Michael, #433. RSFB #403 & 404, you are not alone about the whole financial situation and accountability. I am sure this will be addressed at the meeting/forum.
    Also, I would encourage you RSFB #429 to be sensitive about the information you previously read.

  458. Yes! A heartfelt thank you Michael @433

  459. Michael,

    @443 and 445
    Was able to read the previews but have to subscribe to read the articles in their entirety.
    Interesting what I could see though.

    @451 Looking forward. Our group would definitely read this. Is there a projected publishing date?

  460. Dusty@439 – Thank you for praying for us – that was so kind to see our monikers in a row like that – we all appreciate it and are feeling it here. We have a group of survivors that get together frequently to discuss these issues and the journey we are on. It’s been enlightening and comforting to do what we do on a blog in a restaurant or coffee shop. We’d love to meet some more of the bloggers in person someday.

    MIchael – Good job on the years of laboring here and the consistency it takes to run a blog like this. I had someone dismiss the information we’ve found here as “oh the internet! That horrible place — that’s all gossip!” The usual line when discussing a situation like this.

    As I told them – it’s the one place that these people can go to discuss this situation. We’ve found out more truth behind the company press release here than anywhere else as is most often the case these days with Corporate Churches.

    I told CTruth to thank the Lord this is all coming out here & now – as painful and earth shaking at it might be to see it all confirmed in print – it is an absolute gift from the Lord! We didn’t have this from the other Boise Mega Church we were on staff with. We are still waiting and looking for more confirmations.

    We had to ferret it out piece by piece from people who were on staff and wanted to vent to the facebook posts of the rich and famous pastors kids who still love to put their lifestyle out there. In our case it was related to other national events & ministries we had been a part of that gave us information – 501c3 within a 5013c. We had to become sleuths and journalists just to uncover any info.

    So to all the Calvary Chapel people – you have the work being done for you right here. You don’t have to meet and try to put two and two together alone. Confirmations are a form of vindication to the red flags that were screaming in your spirit all these years. What a gift to get through the process with such support!

  461. SMiller. Amen and thank you.
    Dusty, how compassionate to list our names and pray comfort for us. Thank you. I am reminded of a cruel response from the pulpit of Bob Caldwell regarding being hurt in church would be, “get over it. No one put a gun to your head”.
    Why didn’t I walk out that day? Because like Bob’s sexual victim, I had been groomed to be shamed.
    The truth has set me free. Thank you Jesus.

  462. SMiller – we should take a screen shot of Dusty’s list and print it out to put in our Bibles and/or on our bulletin boards – refrigerators – to remember to pray too!

  463. I keep starting comments and then deleting them. I have experienced so much turmoil over this, as have many.

    I had a “heads up” about the announcement, including a link to this blog, the day before it happened. I had never heard of this blog before. My initial reaction was “I hope this is just malicious gossip.” I truly thought that must be what it was, because I just could not imagine Bob Caldwell as an adulterer.

    That Sunday morning, before going to church, I told God “if this turns out to be true I will be done with church”. But I really couldn’t imagine it could be true. And yet, it was. It felt like a gut punch.

    Tam Nal, I have most identified with your comments. I have searched without success for a house church option in Boise. I do not know how I will ever sit under a man’s preaching again. This is not the first betrayal of trust I have experienced – far from it. I understand that men, ALL men, are sinful. I also know that I have a tendency to put men on a pedestal and that is MY problem, not theirs. Nevertheless, I question how I am to sit under someone’s teaching week after week but never trust them. And I am loathe to put my trust in anyone again. (Side note: hate having to say this but in today’s world I do. I am using “men” generically.)

    This has not caused me to doubt God or the truth of His Word. I am being honest before God and I have no fear that He is upset with me. He is big enough to handle my doubts and questions. But I am wrestling with what to do next. I have not gone to any church since the announcement. I didn’t even go to church on Christmas, and that was painful for me.

    I have been rebuked by a friend and fellow-CCB attendee for my thoughts and actions (lack of church attendance.) I think my friend was wrong to rebuke me, but I am seeking God’s direction on that and will deal with it when I am confident of God’s leading.

    I guess all of this to say something you all know already. The sin of one man has wide repercussions. Although Bob Caldwell baptized me, I did not personally know him. Nevertheless his sin has caused turmoil in my life.

    I am encouraged to hear about possible changes being enacted by Tucker and staff. I’m not sure that means I could go back there.

    Tam Nal, if you end up led in the direction of a house church I would appreciate it if you said so on here. At that point I would see if we could make contact as I might want to be a part of that.

    Finally, My heart breaks for Cathy, their children and Tucker. The deception they have endured is unimaginable.

  464. Oncelaw,
    God bless you for your courage to post today. You are at the beginning of healing. You wrote that this is not the first time your trust has been betrayed. Many of us had also had that experience in other churches. We will pray for your friend that rebuked you. Denying pain or blaming you for not getting over it in a week will not heal the wound. One of the saying that some of us have shared privately bears repeating here publicly. “The truth will set you free, but it probably won’t be painless”. Take heart that you will feel pain deeply because the fellowship is now missing. If you would like to meet with some of us survivors you have been in the healing process a bit longer, check with Michael, the blog owner, to find out how to personally contact any of us here in Boise. The pain is deep right now, the process takes time, but many of us are proof that we heal, as God leads us out of the valley of the shadow of death. His mercies are new every morning

  465. Oncelaw- so thankful for your step of faith in reaching out into what may feel like walking off a cliff but thankfully the Lord is there to catch you – is with you and hasn’t left you. A lot of here can relate to all you are going through in not being able to sit under the teaching of one man again. The Lord is our Shepherd and He will guide us.

    I offered to meet Tam for coffee sometime and why don’t we all get together – whoever wants to and just talk and pray. No strings attached. Although if the two of you just want to meet you should!

    My email address is jkeller0@gmail.com (that is the number 0 not the letter) if you or anyone here is interested in hooking up sometime.

  466. I would enjoy meeting with any of you who are in Boise. Not so much to rehash our pain, but for prayer, support and fellowship.
    I to am all over the map with emotions.
    I go from being hopeful, to sad, confused, angry….all of the stages of grieving.
    It’s a process, but God is good.
    On a side note, how do we know that Bob or one of his affiliates isn’t on this blog?
    I don’t see anyone defending him, but it has crossed my mind.

  467. Hopeful –

    Certain people may come to lurk there’s always that possibility.

    And yes to meeting for support and prayer which could entail talking about it too but only if someone needed to. We feel to be sensitive to your needs rather than making it a rehash session. No agenda attached!

  468. This is the saddest thing I have ever come across. As an alternative topic, I suggest you all offer up your most disgraceful, hurtful, shameful sin to be discussed on the World Wide Web. Nothing good will come from this. Healing is in Christ alone.

  469. ONCELAW,
    Thanks for sharing. I haven’t gone to church since the announcement either. As of yet I haven’t felt led to seriously search for a fellowship. I guess I’m still processing it all. Since the time of my earlier posts my mood has shifted to a place of apathy. It was only just yesterday that I got back into my personal devotion and private worship. I hadn’t realized it but I have been in a spiritually mute place these weeks. Maybe it was a combination of the news about Bob and this unforgiving weather but thankfully I’m coming up out of it. Like always once the smoke clears all I have left is God and the promise of His word. I am more sure now than I have ever been that I can count on Him and that the Church is secure in Him. CCB on the other hand… who knows what will come of that. I am rambling….ONCELAW, I will begin to diligently pursue God about my fellowship needs and find a way to contact you if something divine arises.

    I was intrigued by what HOPEFUL said about the meeting with Tucker. I’d like to hear a response from the leadership about their intentions going forward. What approach are they planning on taking from here on out? Are they really just here to serve the Lord like he said or are they more concerned about saving the congregation? Will it be a group of leaders diligently applying their spiritual gifts for the edification of the body or are we just gonna play church?

    My life from one week to the other is a battle. I need sincere fellowship and the power of God in my life, not for novelty’s sake but as a matter of survival. I feel my walk is like someone trekking cross country in a blizzard. Snow up to my knees, chilled to the bone I keep pushing ahead because He loves me and I love Him. I can’t turn back or I’ll die. Nor can I turn aside to play church because if there is one lesson learned from this whole Bob episode it is playing church is just as dangerous as turning back. At the same time I recognize I need help trekking ahead. It’s like I’m caught in a difficult position on a chess board and it’s my turn to move. Do I let the Queen take my Bishop and hope it all pans out in the end?

    If I continue at CCB or any church I need the leaders to be Kingdom men not company men. I need them to be aware of the severity of the struggle and be serious about their call to serve.

    God guide us I pray.

  470. You’re right, Myca. It’s sad when people are informed of the truth because liars in the church sought to hide it from them to keep them in bondage. It’s sad when these people break because of the pastor/church’s duplicities and then find a place to express their brokenness. It’s sad when, in the process of expressing that brokenness they find other broken people who understand, validate them and they then heal together. What’s even worse is when they still love the Lord and discover God still loves them! Can you imagine the audacity!

  471. Michael,
    Please delete if you feel this doesn’t belong here.
    My intent is not to hurt anyone.
    The Mistress has a daughter with same name as the poster condemning us.
    That may explain her post.
    I’m sure she is hurting and processing all of this as well.

  472. Not being psychic–I could not have known. If that’s true–delete mine, too. I could not imagine the kind of pain for that person and don’t want any part of adding to it.

  473. JM – I get what you were saying and reacting to. We saw a similar reaction by the Pastor’s daughter at our former church when she got on a blog. It showed they were watching and reading it all along. One of our former members had a good conversation with her and worked to bring understanding because she was absolutely clueless about the pain that their antics and decisions had caused their voiceless membership.

    She was brought up in it her entire life and only saw it as a personal family issue not knowing that everything that happened in leadership to people we loved and admired had a great and profound effect on those around them.

    I found a verse at that time to ‘know those who labor among you.’ It is our job to know them -to really know them. Isn’t that easier in a small church of 300 than 5,000? As one leader said ‘the more people you can touch -the more you can hurt.” That’s why the Bible has guidelines for who should be a leader lest they fall and take hundreds with them. We didn’t invent that.

    Don’t be worried about deleting so many things here when it gets uncomfortable as it’s an important part of the process. We keep saying that the people here have no other voice in this type of system. Shall we refer back to that booklet again where you have to keep anything and everything negative to yourself?

    We welcome Myca and hope she can read this entire thread – and let it soak in to understand the fallout and how it feels to those who were there. Let her write her reactions and add to storyline here. That is also a step to healing in a family situation.

    This is why we don’t want Pastors or leaders to fall because of the pain it causes those around them – especially their own children.

  474. S Miller, thank you for your grace. It just struck me hard when I Iearned of who she might be. My family was hit more than once by moral failure of this kind. It even caused suicide. I got there too late for one of them. I wasn’t quite twelve, but would have done anything rather than to see someone go through that kind of pain. All sides are grieving, I pray with all my heart, that her Mom, who I understand is repentant, will learn to forgive herself and that the church will help her.

  475. Myca @469

    As you read through the comments on the Bob extra marital affair subject here, you will see that most people in this discussion want to shield the woman who was with Bob in the affair that we are now learning lasted many years. Yes it may be difficult to see a discussion about it, but how else would you have people who trusted both parties in the affair, both in leadership at the time, process the news that their revered pastor turned out to have something going on that no one knew about while he was talking about the importance of corporate family chores from the pulpit every Sunday.

    Yes it’s hurtful and we hate that about it; but we wouldn’t even BE in this discussion if hurtful choices of betrayal hadn’t been made.

    We all agree that true healing only comes through Christ. But the Lord seems to use his people in the aiding of that healing. He wants us to reach out and be there for each other in times of crisis. Like it or not, Bobs deception and long term affair with another woman has caused a crisis for many in his church. If the church was doing what it was called to do to bring healing maybe we wouldn’t need blogs that give sanctuary to those lost at sea who are the ones in need of this discussion on the World Wide Web.

  476. JM Very well said and we can feel your heart in that post and many others. Everyone here has a story to share and a lot of insight from life that is adding to the mix. The value of a blog is to bring out people’s gifts and discernment.

    This has been an uncomfortable and unfortunate situation for everyone involved. Once you disclose a 14 year affair you have to brace yourself for the fallout. It rains on everyone and will have an affect for a long time.

    JKeller – good thoughts on why this taking place here on ‘the world wide web’ as stated. You were the one who had the idea of allowing people to talk in a room somewhere – not just on the internet. I can picture a room for victims families after a plane crash where they provide on site counselors.

    We cannot stress enough that when you create a church and drive home the fact that they are family and to do family chores and attend events and retreats together and give of their life savings sacrificially — they expect to be treated with the same respect as ‘family’ when a crisis happens.

    They can’t be shoved into a broom closet somewhere and told not to talk or ask questions. When will Leaders learn these are not little children or pets you can put away and ask them not to care or cry or have emotions such as anger outrage or tears and venting feelings.

    It is a spiritual bonding that took place and it is not easily cut off on a moments notice. Is it the same as the blood family – no! No one is saying that, but what we have been trying to establish is a church has a spiritual bond and when one member is hurt we are all hurt.

    This is their forum to talk and get healed. At least till that room is provided.

  477. I am not anyone’s judge, jury Or executioner, to Myca… if you are indeed connected to the women in question just want to let you know I’m so sorry for what you and your family are going through. I pray that god brings healing to your family and uses this thing to strengthen your bond that you guys would be a light to others. I’m so disheartened right now, Bob was someone I had somewhat of a personal relationship with whom I REALLY admired and looked up too. It is so dissapointing that our spiritual leader lived this lie… don’t know what to say other than I pray God heals his heart and redeems him as well.

  478. Myca – I am so sorry for you and your family having to endure this fallout – if you are a family member. I am glad you are stopping by here to read this or comment. If it brings understanding to the myriad of reactions that the Church members have it may be a good thing in small doses. No one wants to add to your pain but bring understanding and truth to those who are hurting.

    If you want to say more on your feelings or story or background we’re listening. I’m sure you have a perspective thats new and doesn’t get heard. May all people involved get healed and heard.

  479. Do churches like CCB ever offer any kind support group for people who are reeling from the announcement that the pastor they have supported for years is now no longer there? especially if it’s due to a betrayal of trust. Couldn’t they offer some kind of open forum that is like a blog but more like a small group set up for sharing and prayer? When I read what people on this thread are going through it breaks your heart and a blog can only do so much given that a lot of the people succumb to guilt thinking this is all gossip and don’t come back for that reason.

    Great thought. The reality is that while Bob was sexually sinning, he was also spiritually abandoning the church he was supposed to be shepherding. That is called spiritual abuse. I have been reading quite a few stories in the last year from people who are no longer going to church after Tullian Tchividjian had sexual relationships and/or grooming at Coral Ridge Presbyterian Church. There most certainly is residual effects that extend far beyond the sexual relationship.

  480. I finally got through all of the comments. My heart really goes out to all of you who are feeling betrayed and hurt by Bob Caldwell. Keep talking. Do connect with others to share how it is affecting you. It is not gossip when you are talking about truth. It is not gossip to share about your struggles. As you can see by the comments here, your responses are normal, and you are not alone. My thoughts and prayers are with you all.

  481. Julie Anne, I really appreciate what you are doing but a large part of the discussion on this post was about exposing the mistress which is the other half of the sin here. There seems to be a general consensus to not expose her name. I agree with that. However, It appears that we now know the daughter’s name of the mistress so if people really wanted to they could probably figure out who this lady is. However, there still seems to be the general consensus to not mention her name. With this in mind and the fact that Bob is gone from leadership from both CCA and CCB, maybe its good advice for the victims to take their conversations outside the blogosphere where they can work through their healing process privately unless of course the mistress wants to come forward and expose herself. Unless there is something else that I’m missing that needs to be addressed publicly online I’m not sure of the benefit of this,

  482. Julie Anne, your comments are insightful and healing (on both this thread as well as the one about Alex). Through a series of recent searches, I discovered your site, Alex’s and Michael’s. I gave more background on other postings, but suffice to say, nearly 40 years ago, I exited a strange life of cult influence only to end up in another abusive environment that was supposed to be the antidote. (I shared briefly my experiences at 4 CC’s, which formally ended in the mid 90’s). I was not aware of any movement anywhere to bring the abuses to light or correct them and I gave up. It is only within the past 6 or 7 years that I slowly began to feel strong enough to do searches on the subject. I landed at some sites that I thought were doing excellent work in identifying certain aberrant teachings (close to my heart because of my background of suffering from cult influence). I knew that error hurts people because it decimated a portion of my family. However, in the end they were not as effective as they esteemed themselves to be because they thought they could ignore the immorality that thrived inside of church leaderships as well as the plight of those abused by heavy handed systems. Some of them have even defended certain slobs or joined with sites that likely knew of Chuck Smith’s own immorality early on. I found this offensive and immoral and stated it on one site, only to be shown the door. To make a short story long, I am grateful that, even though I am late to the game, for quite awhile there really were sites out there trying to make a difference and expose the abuse and fraud that has been perpetrated upon God’s people by those whom I suspect God will say, “I never knew you.” Where the spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. You, Michael and Alex have done a great service in my book.

  483. Julie Ann @480 and 481

    Thank you for taking time to read all the comments here – that took a chunk out of your evening for sure! Also for validating that the shepherd who abandons his flock in the way Bob did when he began and continued in the affair is spiritual abuse and that the blogging/sharing process is part of the healing.

    Steve @482

    I think it should be said that meeting outside the blog is a good idea if and when people are ready for it. Meeting face to face with strangers may seem daunting especially so soon after the news of what was supposed to be a sacred trust has been violated. It takes awhile to process what this violation means to a person’s life and the internet is a great place to process and heal as well as find your own voice and exercise it. Everyone here should feel welcome to return to the one place where discussion is ok, without being told to go away.

  484. Steve @ 482,

    I must disagree with you, this blog has been a good safe place to share, grow, learn, receive Godly guidance and to encourage one another through this journey. Even though Bob is gone there is a devastation to thousands of lives, he was our pastor to many, friend, father figure and a missionary. I am thankful to have a safe place to share. You don’t have to participate in this blog it is obvious, I also sense a bit of bitterness towards those of us that seek this fellowship. As for the sister exposing herself, that is NOT the goal of this blog and never was so you can get over that. There are two women who have been horrifically used by Bob and we feel for them and pray for them along with all their families and thousands of lives that this sin has touched. Thank you, Michael, for this blog and thank you everyone for keeping a healthy conversation going.

  485. There’s hope in Him, I’m glad you found PP and that you feel safe here.

  486. There is Hope in Him,

    I have no bitterness at all towards those that have been spiritually abused by Bob. My heart goes out to them. If this venue is helpful than I’m all for it. But my point is that the advice to keep talking online may not be a one size fits all type of thing and sharing your heart online with the world to see can sometimes have its down side and isn’t always the safest thing to do.

  487. Steve – what else is there? Tucker is setting up a corporate meeting bit my guess is it will be the new powers that be who have the floor, not the people who are just as much on the receiving end of the shaft; so what would you have the wounded mass in Boise do? We are all open for suggestion.

  488. J Kellet #488,
    I encourage you to wait and see, you might be surprised about the meeting (meaning I personally think it will be good). As for who has the floor it really is up to the fellowship to decide and also Tucker is very approachable (nothing like Bob). If you heart is heavy concerning this I encourage you to talk to him about your concerns, I know the leadership/pastorship etc are listening, it is still going to take time. Trust takes time to re-build and heal.

    Steve #487
    Yes you right one size may not fit all, but those that are here are here for a reason and individuals do not have to be on this blog if they do not want to. As adults can decide if this is safe.

    J Keller asks for suggestions: my suggestion is do not be afraid to ask, share and if you attend CC, please talk with Tucker.

  489. I would like to cut to the chase here. We need to know more about the so-called manipulation, intimidation and harassment Bob used towards the woman as stated by a person close to the situation. If that’s true, we are in a different ball-game here folks. If Bob used his twisted sense of authority as a pastor to intimidate and threaten this woman, he needs to be delt with as a sexual predator, not a fallen pastor. He needs to be met by the “older bulls” of the BCC, the ones that were “frozen out” for not being one of his “boys”. I also think that any Assistant Pastor or Elder that participated in doing Bob’s “dirty work” should also be delt with accordingly. I’m all about grace and mercy, don’t get me wrong, but let’s not be fools. I wouldn’t be surprised if he stays hiding in Mexico and we never see him again.

  490. There is Hope in Him@489

    Hope in Him –

    Good point on adults can decide. I always like to add that we live in a free country and as Americans we can choose.

    As for the impending meeting, do let us know how that goes. What I meant by who will have the floor is my sense is that it won’t be an open forum since big churches aren’t usually geared to offer anything where there is a voice from the people. Typically the leadership wouldn’t trust an open mic situation because it could get out of hand. And yes there would be a risk involved since there is always that person who doesn’t have the wherewithal to feel the room and reign himself/herself in. But that’s where the leader of the meeting could kindly step in.

    But at least scripture will be shared and reassurances made to the congregation from the typical platform everyone is used to which is better than not having the meeting at all.

  491. As so many have stated, the realization of the depth of Bob’s deceit has been shocking and painful. Having said that, the question that keeps going through my head & heart is how to trust other pastors now and in the future. I understand that our faith should always be in the Lord and not in our peers but He tells us in His word that it is important to fellowship with other believers. How do we be part of a church body if we can never be certain what is going on behind the scenes??
    This link:

    http://c317808.r8.cf1.rackcdn.com/TheMinistryOfAssistingPastor.pdf

    was posted earlier on the blog with #7 being the main reference. Is this a guideline that ALL Calvary Chapels follow??? If so, it is very disturbing. And if some CC pastors, assistant pastors & other church leaders haven’t seen these apparent CC guidelines, what does that say??
    I feel so confused, duped and stumbled right now. I would SO appreciate any of your thoughts. In the meantime, I plan to keep praying and seeking the Lord to give us all healing & clarity.

    http://c317808.r8.cf1.rackcdn.com/TheMinistryOfAssistingPastor.pdf

  492. Watchdog @ 490,
    Thank you for finally saying this the way it needed to be said, predator!!! That is what Tucker needs to engage in, getting non- churchified professionals in, reporting to local authorities. There are a boat load of cops that go to that church. Call one of them in Tucker. What is are not being seen is that women have been maligned and abused and used by others because of the climate Bob created. Sweep this poison out completely. Thanks for your no nonsense words, Watchdog.

  493. Here’s the problem and why so many of us are torqued.

    Nobody at the church has been up front about anything happening at CCB. When Tucker announced Bob’s adultery from the stage we were told… “We are giving you the information that we feel is necessary at this time”. That was it.

    It was as if Tucker was saying “the church has cancer”… “Sorry that’s all we can say right now”.

    What kind of cancer… how long have we had it… who else is infected… who knows about it… how bad is it… is it terminal? Come on. Be honest.

    Tucker seems like a nice guy… but Bob did pick him… and that concerns me. Bob said “I picked Tucker because he is the only one that I could find that was most like me”. I guess time will tell.

    Plus if Tucker wants us not to trust him… he’s doing a good job… because as somebody said above… he wants to wait for “the dust to settle” before anything else is discussed.

    We are adults… I think we can handle it.

    And when they said they just found out two weeks before they announced it… come on… seriously… am I the only one thinking this?

    Speaking from experience (family, friends, and the last calvary we attended)… somebody knew and didn’t want to be a whistleblower and lose their CCB position or get canned.

    Did the elders, assistant pastors, staff live with blinders on… did anybody hold Bob accountable?

    How long did this affair go on for… 9 months, 5 years, 20 years? Was this the only affair… or were there multiple affairs?

    We don’t know because they won’t say.

    Were church tithes and finances mishandled by Bob and will there be an investigation?
    If finances were abused will the church recoup those from Bob… and don’t get me started on the grand Easter Sunday Bob send off show…

    Just venting…

    CCB is a multi-million dollar business… and like any other business that has a cover-up… they get investigated.

    Getting all the information will help those who need closure… rather than bitterness building up. I already feel better just getting this off my chest.

    If Tucker stays… I think he needs to get rid of everybody from the top down and start fresh.

    The fact of the matter is this. Bob Caldwell pulled the wool over the entire church’s eyes for years.

    And we won’t let it happen again.

  494. #496,
    “Speaking from experience (family, friends, and the last calvary we attended)… somebody knew and didn’t want to be a whistleblower and lose their CCB position or get canned.

    Did the elders, assistant pastors, staff live with blinders on… did anybody hold Bob accountable?

    How long did this affair go on for… 9 months, 5 years, 20 years? Was this the only affair… or were there multiple affairs?”

    You have expressed what I did many posts above. While I have since read posts that are hopeful about CCB from those who are also congregants, I cannot imagine going forward without all your very good questions answered. So much of this situation comes off like the Bob Coy situation. It went on for years and years and people knew. In this case, too,–there’s no way people did not know. These people need to confess their complicity. To be fair, some people can be put in such horrible straights by the one in control that they just freeze and hope someone else will blow the whistle. Whatever the reason, people need to come forward and confess this.

    Secondly, as things began to unravel about Coy, it turned out there were multiple affairs and addictions that this man had. Who knows about Caldwell. However, when someone has been lying that long about so much, you have to ask these things. If he was capable of as much as is already known, wise people need to keep looking to be sure all has been discovered. That is what happened in the Tchividian (sp?) case.

    I encourage you not to feel stupid if you want these answers–especially, because you have already discovered that there is a pattern of cover-up in many CC’s. It’s leaven that many of us have suffered under. My day is at an end, so I will leave it at that. God be with you.

  495. JM

    Nice to see you. I’ve missed you in CCA.
    Thankful for Alex.

    S.Miller

    You are right about that church. I think I know you.
    Many churches in the area have done what CCFL has.
    The satellite church model. You probably know the other one I am speaking of.
    It’s a copy cat thing..and very successful financially.
    So no more small “struggling “churches. And “struggling” Pastors.
    Those who are truly serving with not enough income to keep their church going.
    So CCFL would take it over.
    I remember CBTG’s pastor early on , after he was sent to grow that church that began in an old small white church, to a huge parcel purchased in a residential area…saying when I visited ” BC will save them on the east side, and I’ll save them on the west side”
    A plan in action. A big monopoly board. As if any man other than the man God Jesus Christ saves anyone. This is a church that has ” bring your dog to church day” and plays secular , raunchy music..pastor says..” that’s what they listen to at home” so we’re gonna give it them here.
    anyway, S. Miller, you’re right about the promotional aspects.
    If you were a couple who had $, there was a time they would have you lead bible studies in your home on giving, through crown financial and related studies, asking others who were in the same financial standing. Even if they had no clue where you stood spiritually. So much more can be said.

    JM

    I heard about a month ago that one of BCs women died.
    I can’t affirm that since I’ve been pretty much out of the loop there for many years.

  496. S miller
    I read more and I may have mistaken you.
    You ask what became of BCs kids and wife.
    His wife is back in Ca. And she was a speaker at a CC women’s retreat. She looks great. The message is on YouTube.
    The kids took a year off and did missions work overseas through Potters field.
    Many of our kids see this on FB, it’s not a secret.
    So they all seem to be doing well.

  497. CCB has somehow managed to keep this scandal “in house”, but realistically, they can’t keep the lid on this very much longer. This is a nuke waiting to go off. The liberal Idaho Statesman would just love to make hay of all this. Unfortunately, when the secular public gets wind of the scandal, it’s not going to be pretty.

  498. I sincerely hope this does not devolve into a place for gossip. I was greatly encouraged by reading this morning in Malachi 3:13-18. Part of it is this:

    “then those who feared the Lord talked with each other, and the Lord listened and heard… they will be mine, says the Lord almighty, in the days when I make up my treasured possession…and you will again see the distinction between the righteous and the wicked, between those who serve God and those who do not.”

  499. SRS @492

    I can’t answer your question about #7 and all CCs since CCB is the only CC church I attended and that was after my big breakup with my former church – a “relationship”, or what I thought was a relationship, that spanned 2 decades of my life. Because of that, I can relate to the pain of realizing your trusted pastors were really in the ministry more for personal gain than for the people themselves. True agape love wasn’t there for us although we were expected to give true agape love to them. It was not a two way relationship at all but one-sided in many ways.

    Your lament at trusting another pastor is a well founded fear. How could we trust another pastor again was forefront in my mind when first coming to CCB. With a new determination not to be pulled into building another man’s kingdom helped keep Bob at arms length when I could have chosen to get in there and be in the thick of it as much as anybody else with the opportunity sitting at my threshold. Now I am praising God and giving Him thanks that He did not allow me to feel free to enter in. It was for my protection and ultimately the protection of my loved one.

    I wasn’t alone in this because the Lord provided Fellowship and Friendship in the midst of all of it. We are ow all the more determined not to forsake the assembling together, praying together for our lives and families, searching the scriptures together and being open to whatever God has for us one day at a time. It’s not church as we’ve known it but it has been God’s gift for us to sustain us.

    All this to say you can have a long-lasting fruitful walk with God without church as you have known it. We have the early church as an example of thriving in God together and keeping it simple. As you pray God will lead you in the way to go and if it is into another church just determine not to put your trust in the pastor or the system.

  500. Answers?@494
    All such valid questions! Exactly the kind everyone should be asking!

    Watchdog@498
    I have wondered the same thing. Not that I want to see the Statesman use it to obliterate the testimony of Christ, but once they get wind of the pastor of the Abidinis has been living a double life, they will want to print something.

  501. Hannah!!!! So Good to see your name! I have missed all the wonderful exchanges on CCA, too! I hope I will still get a chance to properly thank Alex for that forum. It was incredibly good timing for me and you were such a gift. I pray that you are more than well and are having a truly blessed start to your new year.

    I think I will be brought to despair if what you say about one of the women from the other case is true. May God have mercy on all the victims who are left in the wake of that tragically, similar case of pastoral abuse. Dear God, I pray for all the victims in both of these deeply grievous situations. May they be found, comforted and brought to healing.

    Dear Hannah, hope to see more of you here!

  502. Watchdog. (#498) There are many unfortunate side effects of a leader being in unrepentant debauchery. God’s mercies endure forever–but his tolerance of this kind of sin in a leader–not so much!! I have no doubt whatsoever that God came to this man in some way or another over the years to encourage confession and repentance–but Bob willfully continued. Eventually God, Himself, will expose the sinner for the sake of the rest of the body. It would be better that the body is healthy enough to spot the cancer when it starts and care for it themselves, but this case shows something went terribly wrong.

    One other of the horrible side effects has been noticed by you. It causes the enemies of God to blaspheme, much like David’s sin with Bathsheba. Why that story wouldn’t scare the poo poo out of a sinning leader– I do not know. David paid dearly for what he did in so many ways. Yes, it is likely to be another public stain foisted upon the body of Christ by another piece of dirt.

    Can this fellowship be saved? It depends on how much trust can be reclaimed from the congregants and how much pain every one is willing to share. This is much like a family who has suffered from the infidelity of one of the parties. The dynamics are similar. The betrayal is very deep. In a perfect world–If Bob feels any remorse and fears God, the best thing he can do is to find his lost integrity, stand up in the fellowship he harmed, and, in person, confess to the depth of what he has done and be truly concerned for the effect it has had on the people. (This is absolutely assuming he had done even more for his poor family already. He would absolutely have to start there.) Further, he should expect nothing in return and know his need to work towards restoration with his god even if he never regains the relationships he ruined. That is true repentance. This is also why it never happens. It’s really, really, really hard work! A person who has lived such a selfish existence for so long may never be able to come to grips with what they have done. They may have warped their conscience so bad, it has atrophied. The damage, the pain, the time, the fallout..everything…is why a person should do everything short of castration to make sure something like this NEVER happens. Do a Joseph and run like the wind!! Make no provision for the flesh just like the Bible says. It’s not rocket science!! It’s called “crucifying the flesh”. Because so many CC pastors were put into their pulpits without ever being tested in their life/their faith and were given the keys to a rationalized superior view of themselves (Moses Model/God’s Anointed) — with the blessing of Santa Clause (CS)– this is what the fruit came to be. Where were the mature voices long ago when it mattered!!!! I am in my 6th decade now and have seen way too much of this. I grieve deeply that this keeps happening and really, really, really hope people will recognize the obvious flaws and stop this insanity!

    If Caldwell is such an idiot to not fear God and not do the right thing (Bob Coy is a good example of that kind of piece of dirt) then the remaining leadership will have to step up and repent of getting their eyes off God. They are not the worst of people. Many were just doing what they were taught like so many of us pew warmers at one time. However, they did abdicate a responsibility they had to be a counter weight to a cult of personality which describes so many CC’s. They let a system set up by a sinful, flawed man who was over-revered by too many, take over their thinking and replace their own sensibilities. You have to know that this is called idolatry. Unfortunately, the body that has been so wounded may very well have to change the way they have allowed church to be done for them. Passivity and undiscerning trust can never happen again. I know because I had to learn the hard way to take responsibility for my part in being led astray. Did I deserve the betrayal? NO! Can it always be prevented? No! Could I reduce the odds greatly by questioning everything (respectfully) and pursuing an answer for something I don’t feel right about? Yes! I would tell the body and the leadership, If the leaven isn’t completely dealt with–it will happen again and again. I would want every “I” dotted and every “T” crossed. If there were attitudes and practices passed along by the corrupt “association”, that directly played into this, then rebuke the association and require change. If change doesn’t happen–separate. Action is the only thing that will help. The days of abdicating leaders and passive pew warmers are so over!

  503. Does anyone know the name of the YouTube video of the Women’s Retreat where Cathy spoke? I think it would do many of our hearts good to hear her again and see that through what must be one of the most painful times of her life, she is okay. Knowing Cathy, and her incredible faith in the Lord, there is bound to be much fruit that comes from such a tragic time.

  504. SRS – I think Hannah was talking about Bob Coys wife and kids.

  505. SRS wrote:

    “Does anyone know the name of the YouTube video of the Women’s Retreat where Cathy spoke? I think it would do many of our hearts good to hear her again and see that through what must be one of the most painful times of her life, she is okay. Knowing Cathy, and her incredible faith in the Lord, there is bound to be much fruit that comes from such a tragic time.”

    I do not intend to come across insensitive, but there is a huge lesson that has been taught by the Caldwell and Coy scandals, which is that many of their members (I know CC doesn’t have members, but I don’t know what else to call them), were worshiping the pastor instead of Jesus. They treated them like celebrities and when they fell, it caused a crisis of faith in the members.

    The quote above where it says stuff like “her incredible faith in the Lord, there is bound to be much fruit” is more of the same. Now you are transferring your love of celebrity to Coy’s wife or ex-wife. Somewhere in the Bible Jesus says (speaking through His apostle) let the one who boasts boast in the Lord.

    Some of you need to stop putting sinner/saints up on a pedestal. Their great faith or weak faith in none of your business or concern. What should concern you is that Jesus is faithful and His promises are trustworthy.

    1) Pick your pastor;
    2) hold him to 1 Tim 3 qualifications;
    3) make sure he’s teaching the orthodox faith (see the 3 ecumenical creeds for starters);
    4) go and hear God’s Word and Gospel (if you don’t hear the Gospel every week – leave);
    5) if he teaches a doctrine that was unheard of for the first 1,000 years of the faith, leave; and
    6) if he casts any visions, claims prophetic powers, or any other nonsense designed so that you cannot question him, leave.

    If you do these things, you will do well.

    God bless.

  506. Ummm…anyone here wonder why he’s fled to Mexico? One blogger stated “seeking a therapist of his choosing”. Bob is no dummy. Could it be that there is something he did that was illegal? Just makes one wonder. Be wise brothers and sisters. I take all that flowery talk in the statement by young Pastor Tucker with a grain of salt. It’s wishful thinking but sometimes things don’t always end in the land of rainbows and loli-pops. Just ask the hundreds if not thousands of people that have been damaged from his ministry and will never go to church again.

  507. Watchdog – I love your set of questions – they are all spot on and should be asked in a situation like this. I hope you can find a forum to ask them where they will be answered honestly. So far in our experience the blog forum is one of the best places to have that happen.

    I’ve been in Leadership in business and in Church. You are usually taught to save the ship – the organization first. One of the things that makes that possible in this day and age of media sharing -is you have the numbers working for you. The numbers, the numbers, the numbers! That is what is discussed at almost all Church Conferences.

    I’ve also heard many Pastors say ‘we don’t care about the numbers.’ Which is great except when you have to pay all those bills on a campus the size of Auto Mall. Numbers equal tithes -weekly and monthly. I believe it was you who stated they have a large budget in the million dollar plus mark — maybe 2 or more. Insiders will confirm this. Why don’t you know that as tithing members? Is it a club secret?

    We were told about the ‘books being open’ when we first attended there. We were excited as our last mega-world church didn’t really even have books to look at and a financial meeting was more rare than spotting a leopard in downtown Boise.

    When we asked a CCB Elder/ Staff member about actually following up on the pulpit claim we were told that ‘ not just anyone could look at them’ – you had to be a tithing member. Than we found out you had to be tithing for at least 6 month there. So there you go. Step One.

    We were able to see records finally – not normal. If you think you can understand a business or church by looking through a stack of financial budget forms you are mistaken. It is part of the picture but like looking through a key -hole. The big budget items are usually left out or causally lumped into a huge sum – that will include salaries – travel expenses etc. It is hard to decipher. This is just one aspect of the murky water.

    There is so much I want to say but I am thrilled that more people are popping on here and putting their reaction to a written out comment. Yes people are looking so keep writing – its powerful stuff!

  508. I found an article in Calvary Chapel magazine (date ?) that was supposed to show the good mission work of Caldwell in India. (Link below.) However, considering the lying and debauchery that was really going on in Caldwell’s life during these trips, it would seem that all of this (the mission effort, the trust and love of his family that helped him) may be completely undone because of his cruel duplicities. It appears that the others in the photos were very genuine. I pray they know others see that and that the work done truly in the name of Christ will yet stand.

    As I have continued to ponder all of this, a new flood of questions came into my mind. Could all of this rotten pastoral behavior be leaven left behind because the founder of this “movement” rationalized hiding his own sin early on (as well as that of certain others)? Was the delusional rationale for silence in the face of pastoral sin among CC pastors because they could still do so much “good” if the unwashed, stupid masses were not informed? What is going to happen now when people find out their founding idol was immoral and a liar? What about when God uncovers the immorality of these other men? (The process has surely begun.) There will be much more harm in the wake of late revelations then if there would have been in early, true confession and repentance.

    David Hocking has always seemed like a nice man. (What he did back in 1992 was not even close to a Caldwell or a Coy.) I have always thought he would have had a better life if he would have gone through the restoration process of his own church instead of following Chuck Smith to CCCM. People could have never questioned his integrity because going through the process would have allayed any appearance of evil. He would have, instead, been known as a humble man who resisted the urge to put his “gifts” above the holiness of God as Chuck would have him do. Instead Hocking went along with Chuck and continued to teach shortly after his admission of “moral failure”. Sadly, a shadow has remained over him. Did Chuck do this to justify his own sin or his warped view of pastors as “God’s anointed”? Did it make other pastoral adulteries possible because they knew Chuck would do very little? Satan always lies to us and says we can bypass the cross. Even if “an angel of light” comes and tells you that, as a pastor, you can bypass the consequence of losing your pastorate over this sin–run–even if the angel looks like Santa Claus! Does God ask us to commit or continue in sin in order to do good?

    Because of the rotten CC fruit, one has to ask even more hard questions. Putting aside the early, unclean influences of Kathryn Kuhlman and Lonnie Frisbee (and maybe Paul Cain), was CC immediately compromised because of the weakness of its founder who set into motion a system (Moses Model) that allowed abuse and immorality as long as it was cloaked in orthodoxy? Could such a “nice” person have been wrong? Could the leaven that orthodoxy should be elevated above orthopraxy have spilled over into certain discernment ministries to allow them to ignore the abuses and adulteries and not see their own idolatry of Chuck Smith? Will I be termed as “blasphemous” even though I am not questioning God, but rather the policies and actions of a flawed man and his man-made system–and–even though these questions are purely the result of the visible bad fruit I am told in Scripture to use as the criteria to evaluate their work?

    I challenge any pastor who is engaging in this sordid behavior — or any pastor considering such a sin–to get on their knees now and repent. Don’t wait for God to expose you. It will be worse. The harm you do can last for generations. Worse than that, it harms and humiliates the one who was tortured and died for you. It defames the name of Christ whose blood was shed for you. If that does not phase you, then I hope God will, indeed, “out” you as soon as possible because you are truly reprobate and you stain the body of Christ.

    Will there be righteous pastors within the ranks of both camps of CC protesting the policies that made this possible or will it be more of the same? Will both sides be stupid enough to carry this leavenous way of “doing business” into their “new” groups making any hope of reform a sham? Does anyone think either side will be successful without repentance of the “old ways” that make a Coy and a Caldwell so very likely to happen over and over again? Does anyone have enough of a conscience to see that they can’t keep treating their congregants with such cruel disrespect because they are fellow heirs with Christ? Do any leaders have enough “fear of the Lord” to see this and do better?

    Here is the link of which I spoke at the beginning of this post: https://www.calvarymagazine.org/PDFs/Issues_11-20/Issue_16/India_16.pdf

  509. This thread is starting to stink. How do I stop it from coming into my inbox?

  510. Tam @510

    There is usually a link at the bottom of the email giving you the option to unsubscribe.

    Hope all is ok with you.

    J

  511. Jean, I don’t know why I missed your comment #508. It was concise and well-stated.

  512. Michael,
    Thank you and EricL for several of the links on the linkathon for today. I appreciate a couple of them in particular, as they have helpful info and are issues that Calvary Chapel Boise, it’s current and former attendees, and current leadership are dealing with in the aftermath of Bob Caldwell’s deceit and sexual immorality. The two that helped me are:

    Are all sins equal to God?
    and
    Fraudulent Authority…

  513. hey bob,my husband & i attended ccb & ccmh. we know dan davis.. just wanted to let you & kathy know God does heal even this.. my husband & i both cheated on each other early in our marriage & walk with Jesus.. im blessed to say were ready to celebrate 39 years together.. ill be praying..

  514. for one who has lived this being a victim & guilty party, if God had bob confess thats only for bob alone.. there is no need to expose anything except for the sin.. the rest is for the HS to discern & lead… ill be praying for you bob & kathy as i just heard of your trial.. God does heal & builds trust again.. i know, as my husband & i are getting ready to celebrate 39 years together…

  515. If Bob were sitting in a pew instead of leading a church, it might be between just God and Bob. That is not the case. As stated over and over, the sexual immorality was not a singular event, but a long and horrific pattern of abuse by a self serving man that fooled himself and others into thinking he was spiritual and laid back. It worked, until it didn’t. This is not Bobs email, so maybe you thought it would go to him ?

  516. CTruth – well stated and thought out. This point of clarification comes up in each and every scandal like this that has to do with Church Leaders – especially a very visible leader who was International — Mega Church –On Radio –On TV –Over Calvary Chapel Association area.

    It is sweet of you to get on here and encourage other victims Valerie. It is a wonderful testimony you and your husband have and help other couples with as a ministry. I hope you keep going and can tell more of your story there at CCB or wherever you attend. Lord knows the world needs your story! Bless you!

    Unfortunately this kind of healing is about spiritual abuse of a whole congregation and more.

  517. CTruth – Glad you clarified the situation. To go further, the issue of the relationship with Bob’s severely wounded and severely disrespected wife is actually a separate matter from his pastoral behavior and ability to serve in another pastorate. They would be free to do as they feel best. For that reason, Valerie could try to contact them privately.

    No matter what transpires there, Bob’s actions mean he is now Scripturally disqualified to be pastor over a church again. As SMiller said, spiritual abuse of his congregation is the issue, as well as the attending fallout for which he is responsible. Any repentance would also have to include the congregation who believed in him, trusted him with their souls and supported him with their very substance. Bob tried to cover up his sin and it took someone outside of the situation to expose him. Sadly, he brought this public discussion of his misdeeds upon himself. This is what happens when you are a leader and you defy God.

    I would caution anyone against an oversimplification of this situation. It can have the effect of minimizing the sin of a leader who had the power to hurt so many and it can feel like telling the wounded they are wrong to have a problem with being abused. That is not helpful either.

  518. Perfect said JM!

  519. JM

    Has it ever been determined whether a CC man working in a leadership position can commit adultery, be brought before the ” church”, and then become a Pastor of their own CC? ( remember JC brought by his brother BC)?
    What’s good for the goose is certainly proven no good for the gander…

    Who would authorize their use of the dove and the CC name?
    We discussed this over 7 years ad nauseum on CCA, and CS said there were no ” affiliates” to the mother church yet many CC churches listed themselves as affiliates of CCCM.
    Sine they believe they are a ” type of Moses”, what did Mises have to say about that?.

  520. Sorry iPad typos.

  521. Sorry – that was perfectly and succinctly said JM! You have wisdom to be able to sum up the difference – rightly dividing truth here. We have spoken to so many people who are affected by this already and who have no voice. They are reeling – their world is on tilt spiritually. It will never be the same.

    The experts on Spiritual Abuse are often asked why it goes so deep and lasts so long – is harder to get over than physical abuse: it is because it goes to the core of who you are and what you believe. It is the most trusting place in your heart. You don’t get over that quickly.

    It is a great responsibility to be a Leader and especially a Spiritual Leader. To minimize the impact is to be held in a lie again! You have stated it perfectly “they trusted him with their souls and supported him with their very substance.” That is it exactly!

  522. Miller, thank you for your encouraging words. I fear that my passion on these matters will get ahead of me sometimes. I really think Valerie was trying to help and you were right–her story is compelling. I just fear for the victims.

    Hannah! Always a joy to converse with you!

    Whether the scenario you described has actually happened, I do not know. However, it is reasonable, based upon CC’s controversial history, to consider other twisted possibilities. I, myself, was witness to fairly new converts being given positions with some authority only to have things end badly. This, too, was in violation of Scripture which forbids a new convert from being put into an elevated position too soon because he would become puffed up.

    As to adultery committed by the man in your scenario–because of the qualifications of a pastor listed in Scripture, this “CC man” would, then, not be a person of good repute. Additionally, the sin of adultery at any time would show a lack of self control (a necessary fruit of the Holy Spirit and a sign of maturity) so it wouldn’t be prudent to knowingly put such person in leadership over a congregation (Do not lay hands upon [ordain?] any man too hastily.) Surely such a sin by the “CC man” would be worse than the sin of simply having an unruly household (another disqualifier).

    Altogether, I think it is a wise thing to respect God’s Word and wait upon Him to provide a person who meets the qualifications He has set forth. We do not “help” Him by putting someone in who is not qualified. Disobedience to accomplish something God wants is oxymoronic. Often these actions can cause great harm as we have seen over and over in CC. When Abraham decided to “help” God by impregnating Hagar, that didn’t end well and is still haunting us to this day. Saul lost his kingdom by “helping” God and not waiting for Samuel. And…CS thought he was “helping” God to remain after his own disqualification. Look at that fruit. Many of us are suffering under a system that continued on after it should not have existed (at least in the form we know it). Is that enough proof?

    I had trouble making sure about the disposition of the “Dove”, but I did find this: According to the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office, the name “Calvary Chapel” is owned by Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa. Every church name that has the words “Calvary Chapel” in it belongs to Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa ( Brian Brodersen is chairman of the board and senior pastor). Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa can decide who keeps the name Calvary Chapel and who doesn’t according to U.S. Trademark laws.

    The “affiliate” thing always confused me. (Maybe the above information will help?) Many who suffered by their lack of accountability decided it was to get them off the hook when things inevitably would go wrong. That would imply it was purposely nebulous. Just like CCOA in the old days. It wasn’t set up to help people who were harmed by their “associated pastors”. It was to deflect and obfuscate.

    Interestingly, Jesus rebuked the pharisees for their misuse of the “Moses seat”. It’s a very indicting passage when you apply it to any pastor who willing accepts the twisted “Moses Model”. Read Matthew 23:1-12 I think you will like it.

  523. S Miller, so sorry! It takes off the S when I type it the right way!

  524. JM

    Passage in Matthrew reminds me of what my mom used to say.
    ” do as I do not as I say”
    Jesus knew the heart of Man and how he can abuse that position of ” Rabbi”.

    Thanks for that.
    Yes.. A about that dove.
    Why CS denied affiliates..seems obvious he didn’t want to be responsible for legalities involved.
    One associate Pastor who left CCFL to start his own church used the Dove in his letterhead asking for monthly support in a letter we received ( $1200 a month and we never even visited!) . When I asked him,denied he was associated with CC ( I forget the name of his church), although some who visited told me he said he was. I think he was going to make the name ” Calvary Temple” which shocked me since we know there are no temples now…I told him that…but I think he just wanted the name ” Calvary”, so he could get those who were from CCFL to go to his church. Why else?
    Yes, so even without the Dove logo, the name is an issue.

  525. I’m still reeling over the fact that there is a woman across town who is getting on with her life as if nothing happened at Calvary Chapel Boise in this last month. How nice for her that she is able to move on while people are in despair all over the Treasure Valley. I’m really feeling the pain of these people tonight and my guess it’s because the Holy Spirit is grieving for all of them. If she truly has experienced repentance, the type that David had, why hasn’t she apologized to and asked for forgiveness from the entire church body she served for years that meets on Auto Drive? For crying out loud – a bomb was thrown into an entire church world of people who trusted her and their mutual pastor. They chose each other by dismissing the pain that it would cause their families who should have mattered more than anybody and everybody in the world. But no, the families are left holding the bag, expected to gather up the pieces and of course can’t talk about it because of the #7Calvary Chapel Gossip Clause.

    Meanwhile someone is across town just loving her life. Doesn’t anyone really get it? These types run off to Mexico or recreate themselves in another church, wiping their mouths after their glorious years of escapade, and don’t expect anyone to bat an eye. Why? Because we are a society of bohemians gorging on self indulgence conditioned to think this is normal behavior. We let it go on in the name of false righteousness, because we mustn’t gossip or say negative things about people who have been rumored to be repentant.

    But what about the wounded mass reeling from the despicable mess these two created with their wretched betrayal. By all means, let them get away with 14 years of deliberate deception.

    David somehow submitted himself to the process of true repentance and that is why he was a man after God’s own heart. Sympathizers use David as an example when speaking of the adulterous affairs of these Calvary Chapel pastors and their mistresses, but the only comparison I can see between them and David is the sinning. Study David a little more indepth and you will find he didn’t just glibly move on. True repentance is not moving on to another church or escaping to another country until you can be in the spotlight once again, as if the perpetration against the lives of others never took place. Restoration surely must mean forgiveness from others after repentance is seen and a return to daily life, but certainly without a public platform for ministry. Am I completely wrong here?

    It seems to me the only people who are cold hearted enough to get up on stage again without a public apology are sociopathic. The hallmark of the sociopath is the ability to generate sympathy for themselves and acting without a conscience. They are expert players and deceivers who leave a trail of wounded messed-up souls in their wake and somehow slip away from view once their deeds are uncovered.

  526. Amen J Keller. Why would the hiding be ok anywhere. Isn’t our testimony when we bring our sins out into the light? I still don’t get it if she was a part of leadership, she too must be considered disqualified from any return to leadership

  527. From above (sorry, not sure who said this first):

    “The experts on Spiritual Abuse are often asked why it goes so deep and lasts so long – is harder to get over than physical abuse: it is because it goes to the core of who you are and what you believe. It is the most trusting place in your heart. You don’t get over that quickly.”

    This.

  528. Hannah,

    Your observation about the use of the CC name by that money-grubbing Charlatan brings up another related point that has been my “pet peeve” for a very long time.

    If it has truly been the Holy Spirit that has been drawing people to a church (Scripture says none can come to God unless the Holy Spirit draw them) and there are CC pastors that are truly appalled at the behavior of those who share that name, then why keep the name/logo? (“Can two walk together unless they are agreed.”) It is only a man-made symbol anyway. Infact, the sick fruit of the CC policies are coming out all the time making these symbols increasingly tainted. (Some sins follow after.) Without reforming and repenting of the sin and abuse, I have to ask what some are trying to preserve. If it’s orthodoxy that some are trying to champion that is good. With my painful past of as a youth greatly affected by a cult, doctrine/orthodoxy is very important to me. However, even this former “pew warmer” can see that you cannot maintain an attitude of denial or complicity by silence, to another pastor’s sin/abusive behavior by justifying it in the name of orthodoxy. Nor can you be so arrogant that you deny your own idolatry of this “association’s” founder by continuing to defend some things that were never Scriptural. To continue this way is oxymoronic and causes more confusion and even harm to the body of Christ. As I said in another post — it elevates orthodoxy above orthopraxy. CC has a history of a missing effort to keep these in balance.

    The CC leaven of the “Moses Model” could be characterized by the following: 1) You can continue in whatever perverted behavior you want as long as you cloak it in good doctrine. 2) The leaders are the “anointed ones”, will disseminate information as needed and are over you so you have to listen and obey without question. Whether by design or default — this system denied pew-warmers recourse when something went terribly wrong. Again–I have no problem with people being taught through the Bible or warned about doctrines that harm. (I would give my right arm to go back with the information I now have and warn the family that died so hopelessly without Christ.) I do have a problem when pastors and speakers ignore systemic abuse, either because they never considered their fearless leader was wrong in his approach or because they think their message is more important than other immediate dangers to the actual health of the body they are addressing. How can you warn of things that enslave and harm people and then not address the abuses going on inside the system in which you have chosen to speak –things that also enslave and harm!? It’s like warning people that they need more fire extinguishers, but deliberately ignoring that all the buildings of similar construction collapse from foundation decay. What’s their excuse? That warning should be done by another department (ministry?). The buck has been passed like this for years. This shows how sick and disjoint CC and its adherents have become.

    If someone needs to be consoled and told that God is still real despite the trauma they have suffered from someone who was supposed to represent Him, and you do not call the perpetrator exactly what he is, you also misrepresent God. Just ministering to a victim’s intellect, might suffice momentarily, but eventually, the coldness will drive them away. Some never come back. To treat people that way is like giving legitimately needy people nothing and then telling them to go away and be filled and be warmed. To put it another way – it would be like giving them a supplement with complete nutrition, but not given them actual food to stop the gnawing in their stomachs. Scripture does not speak kindly of those that do that. We are not automatons or heads walking around without bodies. If you are going into a church to speak or you are a pastor, you cannot preach good doctrine and then, walk away from your pulpit in full view of the bodies of those abused by the system you just spoke in–and then pretend they do not exist or that you have no responsibility there. (If you know the right thing to do and do not do it, it is sin.)

    Pastors and speakers can go a long way to stop a lot of this if they conditionalize their dealings with fellow leaders and pastors who have either been guilty of this kind of horrific behavior or have given a pass to it by their deliberate silence. Unless consequences are brought to bear where the cowards (by omission or commission) cannot hide in the dark, this will keep happening. If the mother church won’t address this, nor pastors, leaders or speakers, then it falls upon the shoulders of the congregants who have been made weak by a system designed to keep them that way. We need to realize that the system we thought was so good at the beginning was man-made and degenerated quickly into a system of enslavement. CC is not the first one, nor will it be the last. The good news, as has been stated by man–and better than I, is that the system does not equal God. Once healing has happened, the ability you will have to discern what is man-made and what is truly required of God will help you tremendously. You will be glad that God has seen fit to trust you with this awful pain now because He wants to save you from something worse later. I sincerely hope that the wounded have a chance to gather safely and encourage each other in the faith. What Satan meant for your destruction, God will use to strengthen and He will redeem it in your life. You are loved more than you know.

    It would be so healing if other pastors would denounce this wrong doing, let the congregation mature by including them in the running of the church and open the books. The pastoral burden will be lighter and the congregation will mature and be better equipped in so many ways. The pastor would no longer be a “one man show, people would see what goes into running a fellowship and they may even appreciate the pastor more. Because people would be on a more equal footing, the pastor would, hopefully, be more accountable, too. Things would begin to be done out of love–not compulsion–because the pastor would be carrying out his duties as Scripture prescribes. What a better environment that would be for the body of Christ at large and what a witness to a broken world who is watching.

  529. J Keller, I couldn’t imagine arguing with anything you said. It is the way I think, too. I do give way to the fact that our host here has information we do not and I have great respect for him. That being said, I confess to wondering if it might be just as beneficial to her to have a statement published about the whole thing. I do believe in the manipulative powers of an authority figure over some people and that it is rightly called, Spiritual Abuse. I also strongly believe she suffered in that way. IF she has made it right with the Caldwell family, then I would advocate a published statement from her to the congregation. I think it could have many good effects. 1) It would give her side and give her a chance to correct anything that is being thought or said about her that is not true. 2) it would be healing to the congregation who also trusted her at one time to know that she does have a conscience about the harm that has been caused. (I would like to believe she is sorry, but it would be a good to hear it.) 3) If done correctly and her heart was exposed as broken and repentant, she would then have the right to ask for forgiveness of the congregation. My guess, J Keller, is that you, along with many others, would forgive her if the right attitude was shown. I wish this would happen. I would really like to see things brought to the light for, not just the sake of the truth–but for the healing of everyone. For the injured side to know it mattered is like healing balm and for the one who caused such pain to know they are forgiven can be life-saving. I encourage all parties to think about this.

  530. Disillusioned, I hope you never give up your questions or your carefulness. I pray sincerely that God will touch you and you will get your miracle. It seems you have waited for some time.

  531. C Truth, your name got dropped in my #532. I must be doing something out of order when I type or when I submit. I was agreeing with you, too.

  532. CTruth @527

    Yes, my point exactly. Nothing wrong with being extended the forgiveness that Jesus gives each of us. Nothing wrong with another church extending the hand of fellowship to her so she can be part of another community of believers. But does the leadership there realize she was a leader over a ministry in her former church and was in a relationship with the pastor at the time? If they do know that and still let her lead then they are gambling with their spiritual lives. Instead of letting her lead in even the smallest capacity at their church, they could lovingly help her through a communication process with the offended former church.

    JM @530

    I couldn’t agree with you more. To clarify, my intent isn’t to ask for her head on a platter although it could be taken that way due to the righteous indignation coming through my comment last night. How to actually begin the process of closure for all the wounded by this is the question the leaders should be asking the Lord; so they can all begin to rebuild their lives as they move on from that point. Your idea of a written statement from the woman is a good one. That way she isn’t standing up in front of the church with the letter A on her forehead. But with a written confession that includes asking for forgiveness from the people she served, read aloud to the congregation similar to the way Tucker read the one from Bob, would be a very good beginning.

  533. I should have added @533 in my humble opinion, is if not completely humble I’m trying to get there in the process of thinking all this out.

  534. J Keller. Very good comments! I, for one, applaud your “process” and think your approach has been thoughtful. For everyone’s sake I hope a balance can be found so that enough light will be shed upon this situation in regard to the woman so everyone can have the peace they so badly need. It may turn out that everything will make sense and people will agree with everything that has been done up to now. It would seem that the danger of keeping people in the dark for too long is that it will make victims feel disrespected and can give an “appearance of evil” –even if there isn’t something wrong going on. Again, I tend to think a statement from her would help considerably.

  535. JM – Amen to that!👌🏼

  536. Having attended CC Boise now for about 15 years, and as a person who also betrayed their spouse (in our early years), I can tell you that the heavy mountainous weight of guilt and shame that you will experience when you commit adultery is a punishment that will eat away much of your life and soul, for many years. I know God has forgiven me. And My spouse eventually did too. We are now restored and renewed in Jesus and have a happy marriage and fruitful, peace-filled life together. But even though God does completely forgive us of our adultery, if we repent and confess our sin to Him, He does not automatically lift the consequences of that sin from our lives. He can. But He doesn’t always. Many long years since I committed that ultimate betrayal, many of the consequences of that devilish choice I willingly made, still affect our life and family to this day. When a person gets caught up in this sin, they are blinded to the far-reaching consequences attached. “God is not mocked; Whatsoever a man sows, that too shall he reap.” I’ve seen a lot of hate, condemnation, arrogant pride, and self-righteous foolish talk on (some) of these posts. And there are many here who are genuinely shell-shocked, and are hurting, in need of God’s healing. But what I will say to each and every one of us, is what Jesus said to the woman caught in the act of adultery: “Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.” If you’ve never committed the physical ‘act’ of adultery, it is certain you’ve committed it in your hearts; every one of you. Let God deal with those who have sinned in this horrible, tragic situation. Bob and his partner in this situation will be dealt with by God. And His love and mercy endures forever. They do not need any of us to be their judge, jury or executioner. Where sins abounds, God’s grace much more abounds. If that were no so, we would ALL already be in Hell where we all deserve to be. If not for His grace, we’re all sunk…especially me. ALL churches and ministries are full of fallible, prone to wander, prone to fall people like me, and like you. Let God alone be the judge. Let us be the grateful, the humble, the lovers of God and the lovers of fallen people.

  537. MarcusF, you did a brave thing by coming on this blog to share your very sad story. You are right to point out that there can be great pain suffered by the offender when they finally repent and most would take back everything if only they could. My family has dealt with this sin way too much. Some even committed suicide in its aftermath. Only one of those relationships were ever restored. Sadly, the wounded spouse never regained her health and I won’t tell you what happened to the child.

    I would only ask that you understand a couple of things. One would be the difference between a congregant whose only responsibility is to his/her immediate spouse/family with no authority over others and one who is a leader, has exercised authority over a large body and has affected the lives of a lot of people. In a sense–it’s about the math. The more people in your circle–the more people you hurt. The more God gives you–the more you will be held accountable for. Further, pastors/teachers fall under a different category and are warned NOT to become one because they face a worse consequence. The passage that covers this is in James 3:1. Here are portions, but you should read the whole verse: KJV, “…greater condemnation.”; Ampl., “…with greater severity…”; NASB, “…stricter judgment.”; and NIV, “…judged more strictly.” A teacher of God’s Word would already know this.

    The other problem seems to be fruits in keeping with true repentance on the part of this pastor. Other than words on paper, there seems to be a missing witness of his care towards the congregation that he also betrayed. Again–as a teacher–some things are expected of him that might not be expected of a lay person. I think if this man would show those fruits by making sure about the welfare of his former congregation, that would actually speed up the healing process and much of this would go away. Unfortunately, there is no report that he has done any of that.

  538. @537

    Having lived through one parent’s adultery, I can tell you personally how it felt as a young child into my teenage years. It hurt bad. Yes I forgave my parent, yes God forgave them, but the consequences to their actions are permanent.

    Your example and my example are not comparable to what Bob Caldwell and his mistress have done. Yes it is the same sin, but the magnitude is far greater.

    And their consequences… a 30 second apology read aloud to the church and the other party has complete anonymity and privacy except to those select few who know who she is.

    Bob’s adultery has effected 10 of thousands of people. From the CCs in Boise, Meridian, Kuna, Eagle, Nampa, Caldwell, Ontario, Emmett, Mountain Home to the International ministries in Italy, Holland, Romania, India (with the hundreds of orphans and hundreds of workers), as well as all of the pastor’s conferences that Bob taught at (if he was really there) throughout the US effecting their churches as well. He was the head of the CC’s for the Pacific Northwest! He was part of the CCA! This runs deep! It’s bigger that your affair, it’s bigger than my family’s affair!

    However, Bob and his mistress (why we are hiding her name boggles my mind) did this for years. This was not an affair. It was a long lasting relationship. They both knew what they were doing. He knew she wasn’t his wife, she knew he was the pastor! DON’T feel sorry for them!

    This is why we as a group on this blog are are trying to get straight answers.
    If a crime was committed we need to know. (BTW Adultery is a sex crime in the State of Idaho)

    If funds were misused, Bob needs to be held accountable for return of said funds.
    This blog is an open discussion because of the lack of accountability to this day from CCB.

    Answers?

  539. Marcus @53

    Thank you for your heartfelt story and can see where you are coming from. I know some of us seem arrogant and full of pride and if that is indeed in any of us we are praying to correct that. We are driven in part by the dysfunction we are seeing and inpart by the people – thousands of them – that have no clue the could have a voice in this. Blogging isn’t necessarily a clean and edited process – nor is it always a discussion between professors with PHDs not that it can’t be that. It’s a forum where anyone can weigh in no matter who they are. Thus you get to read comments that are raw and truthfully honest which I know is difficult for those who are unaccustomed to such openness.

    JM 538

    Yes where exactly is Bob Caldwell? How nice for him to disappear while the sh*t hit the fan. And what of all those references and salutations to Church Family in letters mailed to our homes and posted on his public figure facebook page? Still reeling over how he has managed to use the right verbiage to take the entire state of Idaho on his ride. Feeling a little embarrassed again tonight for falling for it because we thought he was real and authentic.

    Answe 539 In total agreement with your questions why are we giving sanctuary and showing favoritism to one half of the offending party? We should ask our lawyer friend if that would stand up in court! Is it because the Calvary Chapel denomination thinks that women are powerless of the weaker sex and need to be sheltered? I can’t help but ask.

    Hopefully I’m not coming across as arrogant and prideful. 🙄

  540. Ok I am seeing that if I tap too quickly on my iPad certain numbers and letters are not included. Which is ironic given that auto correct is always at work over correcting or completely my words. Shall have to remember to proofread comments before I send not after. So To correct the typos. I meant Marcus 537 and Answers 539 – not that anyone really needs that but just in case.

  541. Answers?, you have done a very good job of accounting for the wide swath of people that have been harmed by Bob’s actions. It should be done. Thank you.

    J Keller, you continue to be a good lobbyist for the entire truth and you are well-spoken about it. Thank you.

  542. Pastors and leaders are held to a higher accountability. But their ultimate accountability, and ours, is to Jesus Christ, at the judgment seat of Christ for believers.

    “For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad” (See 2 Corinthians 5:10)

    I posted a new article in my blog this morning to comfort all those of us who have been let down and disappointed by man, and by this horrific situation at CCB. I do not follow a pastor, a church, or a movement. I follow Jesus Christ. He alone will never fail us. God is Love and Love Never Fails.

    In Christ’s love,

    MarcusF

    http://marriage-miracles.blogspot.com/2017/01/living-with-lifes-disappointments.html

  543. I hopped over and read your post Marcus – I especially like what you said about God using disappointment as part of a weaning process to help us let go of our idols so we will look to only Him to find everything we need. Most seasoned Christians would agree with all you wrote and it’s an encouraging article to keep our eyes and hearts on Him.

    As some of us have explained earlier here on this thread, our pastors became our idols. It was such a subtle transference over time that we didn’t realize we had allowed it. We wouldn’t have woken up to our idolatry if not for the pattern of dysfunction within our church which caused pain. Their confusing and bad behavior was excused simply because they were the ones in charge and who would dare question their authority? It wasn’t until the Lord had released us from them and brought us into a season of healing did we realize we had made them idols and that we needed to repent of that. Once your eyes are open to that, you really don’t want to make anyone else an idol no matter how cool and wonderful they are.

    The Lord has a way of revealing our hearts to us gently and with kindness. We innocently look to our leaders to help us keep our focus and trust in God. Unfortunately certain church systems like the Moses model is rife with opportunity to lean too heavily on the person in charge calling himself the Shepherd looking out for our souls. When things blow up like CCB finding out that Bob wasn’t the Shepherd once thought to be, it causes great pain and confusion. But as people sort through the rubble, the Lord is a present help in time of trouble, helping the disappointed and wounded grapple with what has happened to them. This is the time to lean heavily on Jesus as the gentle Shepherd who won’t let go or abandon, to trust Him alone as never before. This is a critical time because we have known people who walk away from the Lord in disgust thinking the whole thing has been a farse. We must determine to hang on to the one constant thst never fails – faith in the son of God who loves us and gave His life for us, who promises to lead us into all truth.

    The only safe Shepherd is Jesus. The only constant and dependable Shepherd is Jesus. He is the one standing there on the other side of our pain with rod and staff to gently lead, guide, heal and bring much needed comfort.

  544. Bob Caldwell is human like everyone else. The devil found a way in and Bob has to live with that. His sin is forgiven if he repents and doubles down in Christ love. How many that sit in the pews have skeletons they have not disclosed? Bob is a good man the fell down. We all do at times. God bless Bob, Kathy and their family. God bless Calvary Boise to move on in Christ!

  545. …. his mistress (why we are hiding her name boggles my mind)<<<<

    Because love covers a multitude of sins.

  546. Michael (or anyone), is there a transcript anywhere of the resignation announcement from March? There’s a link in the post here from back then, but it now goes to a password protected page. I didn’t even know Bob had resigned until I happened on this site Saturday, let alone the reason.

  547. David,

    Not that I know of…I’m surprised that they have removed access to that page.

  548. And nothing I can find about it from the Idaho Statesman or any other news outlet. He’s pretty well known locally, with a (former) TV show and everything. He preached at by-far the largest church in my neighborhood, and was in the news just a month or two earlier when Saeed was freed. Then just vanished. I’m not sure new management is doing the best job even now in communicating with the larger community. I went to the CCB Facebook and paged way back to last spring, and you wouldn’t even know there used to be a Pastor Bob — except in the comments from 2 weeks ago. Someone asked if Bob would be preaching at an event this month, and others answered he’d been replaced by Tucker, but one person was still under the impression he’s in India doing missions work. I was disappointed by the format they chose for the ONLY announcement of the adultery anyone not at that service might be able to find, outside of this website. One has to listen to 20 minutes to know what’s being announced. And then of course he shuts down answering any pewsitter’s questions but offers to pray with them.

  549. At the risk of typing to myself (I know this is an old thread), a there are a couple questions CCB people may want to ask if you get a chance next month. 1: For how long did the the adultery go on? Aside from a comment here, one might think it was one night rather than some 14 years. 2: Was there sexual harassment in the workplace? If so, laws were broken.
    3: Did Bob get a severance or retirement package when he resigned? If so, he basically stole it from the church, assuming he wouldn’t get that for being fired with cause. 4: Did he or his mistress use church “missions” funds to finance their get-togethers?
    Leaders certainly would know about #3, though they might need to research the others.
    Let me give an example for #4. Once when I visited, I put some money in the plate (or I think it was a bag). Probably $5. If that went to feed Bob’s family, or even if Bob used it for something unwise or sinful after it went into his paycheck, then– can’t really control that. But if it went toward missions, and he used it to tip the bellhop for carrying his mistress’s bags, I’d have a problem with that, because I wouldn’t have given him the 5 if he’d come up to me outside the hotel and said, “Hey, Buddy, help me out here!” and explained what it was for.
    I know answers are unlikely, but those are things I might ask if I’d given him thousands instead of just 5.

  550. This is sickening to me. Pastor Bob, a man of God whom I have known since early in his Boise ministry, has broken the trust of his wife, his children, his grandchildren, his congregation, those he has mentored, and the greater community. And for what? Really, in the end of life, for what? How could he so carelessly trample on everything God has given him? Forget all of his encouraging sermons about fidelity. Forget those counseling sessions in which he said that it is possible by the power of the Spirit to take the high road and to be a faithful spouse in far more difficult situations that he has likely ever faced in his marriage. Apparently, it’s just not possible. Yes, I believe God can bring forgiveness and restoration. He can breath new life. But oh how this hurts!

  551. David @550 At the risk of talking to MYself, I just want to acknowledge your questions as valid and legitimate ones. I doubt that the CCB folks will come back here for fear of being unChristlike. Tucker probably preached from Titus last week.

    Anon @551 As you process the pain Bob’s treachery has caused you, and as you give all of it to the Lord as we all have to do on a daily basis to stay sane and remain in peace, please remember that just because Bob wasn’t able to be a faithful husband and leader doesn’t mean it’s impossible for the rest of us to be a faithful person. All things are possible with God. It IS possible to choose goodness and faithfulness with His help.

  552. J Keller “Tucker probably preached from Titus last week.”
    Do you fear he’s playing the “don’t ask questions and talk about anything or it’s gossip and slander” card?

  553. Good answers JKeller — I’m so glad you are on here answering questions even if Michael is not. Which I ask why and where has he gone?

    This is a huge thread happening and we know because the people who are coming here have no where else to go. Michael the traffic here has been consistent and the comments just keep coming. I said a lot in the beginning because we have been bracing ourselves for this storm for many years. Even so it is a bit like this winter – we had no idea it would be so heavy or so tough or so long!

    This thread has almost 600 comments!! Wow!! Michael should appreciate the amount of traffic this thread alone is driving to his site here because it is affecting his entire blog! Yet he ignores it or seems to. I say that in comparison to how other blogs have reacted in a storm like this as in The Warburg Watch when Mark Driscoll was stepping down. They were on it consistently – not just letting it run its course. SGM Surviors is another example where they were on it trying to answer questions daily. Calvary Chapel Boise Survivors probably need their own blog not just a thread buried to the bottom of a site. It is that big or should be for the survivors such as you David.

    It seems to be getting buried and that is a great concern to the hurting Christians who keep coming by here.

    David – I’m so sorry you went to their site and found nothing on nothing. This was a concern from the beginning that it would just quietly go away. Believe me a very small portion of the history has been disclosed here. What about questions on ALL the financial dealings that happened under his reign? Will you ever be able to get an accounting of what really went on? I hope so. More than that I hope you get wisdom and insight as to what took place here. You have a right to ask and to know. You are an adult not a child.

    Many of us feel you have a right to know just because this just blew up a significant part of your Christian history and that matters. Each time we fail to address as a Church Body -the Lord seems to allow us to go one more trip around the mountain and learn yet again what are we doing wrong that our leaders keep failing like this in such a huge public way.

    Yes it’s a big deal — too bad others are not seeing that.

  554. SMiller,

    First of all, I have had to curtail my time here on the blog due to serious health concerns.

    Second, this blog was here 15 years before this story broke and Lord willing it will be here when it fades into memory like the hundreds of other stories we’ve ran.

    I’m not dependent on one scandal to have a viable platform.

    I don’t judge the need for my participation based on numbers of comments.
    In comparison to other stories we’ve ran this is not “big”…it’s important however, and I’ve reported what there was to know.

    If there were additional information to report, I’d report it.
    Thus far, there is not.
    I’m not going to write stories that have no substance just to keep the attention of those who are interested.

    There will be additional coverage after the open meeting in Boise or if more pertinent information surfaces.

    If there are questions directed directly to me, I try to answer them quickly.

    What I see functioning here is that those who are affected by this matter have had a place to go and find fellowship and work through their own feelings in community.

    I think that’s very valuable and doesn’t need my input.

    Starting a blog is quite easy and that may be the direction you want to go.

  555. Thanks for coming back! I didn’t mean to have so much passion on this but I feel like its the story of the day and its buried on the last page. I do understand its not the focus of this blog and its been good to have a place for these people to go.

    It probably does need its own blog – a Calvary Boise Survivors or something like that. It is not easy to have a successful forum although they can bring people together and a lot of pertinent information comes out such as uncovering the abuse of children in Sovereign Grace that led to a perpetrator being taken to court as well as the black mail situation. It was amazing what took place from allowing people’s stories to come out.

    Thanks for letting this take up space here as we know you have a multiple focus approach.
    So sorry to hear you have been having health challenges as well. It is frustrating to allow it to go quiet when it has just begun to open up the airwaves here. We have sensed they are putting a kibosh on it – subtle but true. You can feel it.

    I left there years ago but know so many affected by it and hope they can find a lifeline to get the answers they need and deserve. Now how to do that is the next step. Thanks for coming on and giving us an update.

    As Keller often says – more communication is always better than silence where your mind can fill in the blanks and often with wrong information.

  556. There are three entities that have further information on this matter.

    Bob, the woman Bob was in adultery with, and the CCB board.

    None are talking and they can’t be forced into talking.

    Legal issues will prevent the board from saying much.

    That doesn’t leave much to report on.

    People need to deal with what they know…and make good decisions about the future in light of it.

  557. “What I see functioning here is that those who are affected by this matter have had a place to go and find fellowship and work through their own feelings in community.”

    I think that this statement speaks volumes and it reveals the heart of a compassionate pastor. Maybe a simple thanks is more appropriate than wondering why Michael isn’t reacting the way some folks think he should.

    Providing a place to vent and heal is a very gracious thing to do…

  558. David @553 Yes that is what I’m afraid of. It seems to be the way it always goes in these types of churches. They use scripture to keep people quiet. Not saying we don’t want to take to heart what Titus says in chapter 3 but I am just so tired of having it hurled at Christians when they have a legitimate question or an observation that the leadership just may be off course. So the CCB people have become very quiet with the exception of questioning minds like yourself and Answers – so it is either because of guilt or because there is nothing else to say and they feel wrung out emotionally from even having to deal with what was thrown at them the week before Christmas.

    You have such an excellent point in your earlier comment @549 about nothing being reported on this scandal at the Statesman. How has this not been noticed? CCB is the largest church we have here to my knowledge. Bob has been interviewed by the Statesman before and is also known as Naghmeh and Saeed’s pastor. There are Stateman photos of him praying with Naghmeh on the Capitol steps at one of the rallies.

    I can offer my own answer – this kind of news may be big to us but it pales in comparison to Donald Trump and Women’s marches. Seriously, if they did write on it, it would be buried st the bottom of page 9.

    I’m certainly not going to call them up and tip them off because in one regard I do respect Titus 3 and wouldn’t want to explain myself To God if He were to ask me about it later. We may as well delay the inevitable and let God determine the timing of it all. I’m just sad that the cause of Christ may take a temporary blow in the Treasure Valley when it does get out.
    Even though I loathe the cover up, I’m saddened by the effect the news getting out will have.

  559. SMiller –

    @554 You know that I appreciate your encouragement but would just like to clarify that when I comment I’m only giving out what comes to mind and hopefully makes sense, but I’m not trying to step into a role as moderator or anything like that. No one else seems to be answering sometimes, that is true, but not just Michael.

    What’s strange is all the CCB are quiet and one even said this thread was beginning to stink. And she was one of the first ones to really embrace the process of working through her thoughts to grapple with what happened. So it grieves me to think she may think it was wrong to interact and speak her mind. Maybe they can only take in so much.

    Michael @555
    First of all, we will make a point to pray for your health and hope that you feel better soon. Second, we do appreciate that you are a seasoned blogger and have been online a long time and have seen much. You had mentioned how Bob Coy survivors and supporters came here to comment. I bet that was a long thread! It would be interesting to read some of that if you think we could learn from it. Can you point us to what month and year in the archives that is or share the link?

    We do appreciate the space here and I agree we may want to start our own blog but they don’t seem ready and but I’m not sure we are ready. Likewise the CCB people may need their own blog but they don’t want to talk so why have one?

    At least here we can hear from an array of Christians who have questions too and don’t mind that we have inquiring minds. It also helps us to try to keep an open heart even with all our questions. So hopefully it’s ok to hang here for as long as others do even if only a few comments at a time.

    I want to mention I have been enjoying some of the other weekly articles you post too. In fact your TGIF article on Inauguration Day helped me a lot as did the entire comment thread which gave me food for thought on how to stave off the division that our current political landscape is potentially causing my family and extended family. We have passionate thinkers on both sides but we managed to host a family birthday last weekend and not make politics the main topic so that’s a victory. And for me your article really helped that.

  560. Thank you JKeller – I know you were just stepping up to respond to those who had questions. The very nature of a blog is it is constantly changing as to who is speaking – like a roundtable discussion. At this point we have been writing and following the Church World blogs for over 10 years now as well. The styles are as various as the Christians who write on them.

    I want to reference that is common for blogs to have many threads – topical discussions. When one is heating up and is generating a fair share of comments than they are often used to create multiple threads on that same subject. Than it rises to the top of the blog and a whole new discussion on the topic takes place. Each blog is different in its flow or style. It was unusual to see one thread produce so much heat and not have it rise to the top.

    One thing we are all in agreement on is we are concerned with the state of the Church. We want to talk and discuss with other Christians around the world and this is one way to do it. Positions of leadership and hierarchy don’t matter here and there is no agenda to follow but the topic of the thread and even then it can lead anywhere. Thats what makes it interesting!

    Somehow out of all the comments and discussions no matter what the topic is – a thread of truth usually rises to the surface. Many people bring in scriptures, new ways of seeing a common situation and patterns revealed. Books that help are shared and people get healed in a way that is uncommon.

    The number one source for historians is letters. The special collections room in the Library of Congress is the main source of any writer of history. In the future they may look here to blogs and forums to understand what people were feeling and thinking at this point in church history.

  561. Excellent points all SMiller @561 thanks for shedding light. Here’s a quick thought to the one on letters – I hope there will be a way to archive a blog that no longer has a URL address. Several of us have wanted to refer to the blog we cut our teeth on – so many good articles posted there and links to articles on the subjects we were discussing, but the blog admins took it down when they were ready to move on and no one else took it on. More on this later since I am running out the door… so to be continued….

  562. So back to the thought on the information stored within the articles and comments on blogs for future reference. I’m just throwing a question out there for anyone who may know and want to share:

    I know the government and google etc have a way of accessing archived information even if a site is down, but how can those of us without a degree in computer science access it without saving comments to a folder or copying an article to a document? The reason I ask is sometimes you don’t realize you need to save something at the time but when you recall it later and return, the site is down and there’s no way to retrieve it.

    I suppose it’s all wrapped up in a privacy issue.

  563. You can try the Wayback Machine…

  564. I was thinking about this thread last night…and I came to some conclusions.
    There was a day when I wrote about CC multiple times a week and I’ve written about it from innumerable different perspectives and angles.

    Most of that was probably from 2002- 2008.

    I’ve said everything I could possible say.

    In light of the latest split, I found most of it irrelevant.

    What I didn’t take into account is that there are a whole host of new victims that weren’t around then…and all that stuff would be new to them.

    I will try to shake off my CC fatigue and be more helpful…

  565. J Keller,

    Thanks for the kind words.

    The Bob Coy threads were actually a disaster…the majority wanted to defend him.

    That was not a fun season…

  566. So glad to see some are still posting. Though my experiences were much earlier in time, this has been very helpful. May God continue to comfort the many who are hurting here.

    Michael, catching up on this thread due to health issues. I see you have mentioned that you are dealing with such. I remember praying for you after learning of your trial on another thread. I fear yours is a chronic situation, too. I am so sorry. Hope you are getting a respite and hope you are getting the support you need. May God guide you and give you strength.

    I, too, would be grateful if there was a way to know more of what was posted previously in regards to CC–even if it’s truncated. Information can be so validating. Thanks for all you do.

  567. Michael –

    Thanks for the Wayback Machine idea – I had to look it up and it actually looks real – wow! I thought it was something in a movie lol!

    Sounds like the whole CC thing was depleting. But yes any input you have to offer would be greatly appreciated when you feel to. Thanks!

    And never mind about the Bob Coy thread then . . . 😮

  568. J Keller @552
    Did you go to CCB last week? I doubt that and if you had you would have known that Tucker did not teach from Titus. This is your quote “Tucker probably preached from Titus last week”. Shame on you, this is gossip and also Tucker did not preach it was Tommy and he spoke from Colossians. In case you would like to know there is a foundation of “transparency” from the leadership, they too are dealing with a mess that Bob left them to as thousands of others. The cool thing here is moving forward, being transparent which is the main goal from the Pastors and Leadership and it takes a bit of time. So with that before you go off and say things you do not know about, visit the fellowship first. As I have said this is a horrific situation but this fellowship will move on as healing happens. I have attended this fellowship since 1982 and despite Bob’s sinful actions, God and His loving grace will move and restore this body of believers.

  569. Cindi,

    So glad that you felt free to comment and chide me here on this open forum. After all, it’s a free country and you are welcome to your opinion.

    I admit I was being a bit cynical when I said that Tucker probably taught on Titus last week. But I was completely serious when I said it because Titus 3 is used often to keep people quiet. Maybe if you would take the time to read what else I said further down the thread @559 you would see what I meant. Here it is if you don’t want to scroll up:

    “David @553 Yes that is what I’m afraid of. It seems to be the way it always goes in these types of churches. They use scripture to keep people quiet. Not saying we don’t want to take to heart what Titus says in chapter 3 but I am just so tired of having it hurled at Christians when they have a legitimate question or an observation that the leadership may be off course. So the CCB people have become very quiet with the exception of questioning minds like yourself and Answers – so it is either because of guilt or because there is nothing else to say and they feel wrung out emotionally from even having to deal with what was thrown at them the week before Christmas.”

    So you see, I wasn’t gossiping but I was making a point that this text is often used to make us feel if we speak up that we are. I’ve been wondering if you are expected to move on without being given the time to process what has happened to you and your church. In a marriage when a betrayal of this magnitude happens the wounded spouse usually goes to counseling at least. Sometimes the offending spouse does too if they couple want to salvage the marriage. Why wouldn’t an entire church full of people need some sort of help processing that they’ve been lied to by their pastor for 14+ years? Do you really think if anyone mentions this outside your church that it is gossip? Apparently you can’t talk about it inside your church for fear you are gossiping.

    Is there a meeting planned for you to collectively deal with all the feelings and confusion this kind of thing has brought up? Or is your leadership just not going to address it by moving on? Do they realize they risk many people falling through the cracks who have probably already decided to quietly quit attending church from disillusionment and pain?

    Believe it or not, the fact that there is a place to come talk and discuss what you think is gossip actually shows we care about the body of Christ. It’s not just about your church. It’s much bigger than that. Someone needs to talk about what has happened. If everyone shuts up then the next pastor contemplating this type of sin will think he can easily get away with it. Did you know that Bob was actually an admirer of Bob Coy and wanted him to come to your church? Both Bobs have quietly slipped out of sight because of how your church system just moves on like nothing has happened.

  570. David @547

    I found the letter you were looking for. Please see below

    “Big Changes Coming – A Note from Pastor Bob
    March 3, 2016

    Dear Church Family,

    It has become undeniably clear God is changing my job description. To fulfill what He has put before me, I have to accept that this change has come sooner than I had hoped. Easter will be my last weekend as Lead Pastor of Calvary Chapel Boise. This is the hardest thing I have ever done. It’s difficult because my daily investment for 35 years into the life of our church family has forever woven you into my heart. To not be so directly involved together is hard to imagine. I’m sure most of you know what I do has never been a job, it was simply belonging to an amazing spiritual family.

    Love has been the golden thread that has enabled us to go through the things only a strong family can endure and produce. Our shared successes and failures have made us into something that is greater and more authentic than what we could have ever become alone.

    Although the thought of this change is difficult for me, it is also easy because it’s clear that it is God’s time and God’s will. I’m convinced of this for several reasons. To begin with, it is obvious some sort of transition is inevitable. That being said, several things have come together to confirm the time is now. God has answered these specific prayers I know were needed for this to happen.
    • God has prepared the right person, Tucker Maile, to take on my current role. Our pastoral and elder teams are 100% behind Tucker stepping into this role. I’m convinced he is the right person to take our church forward to reach the current and next generation in the Treasure Valley. He shares in the same core values that have been my driving passion.
    • God has placed our church in a solid financial position, which is vital in a transition.
    • God is bringing an increased ingathering of new people to Christ, lots of new people hungry for God, and a growing network of committed people within our church who are working together to serve our church family and its outreaches. It would be very poor timing to do this if I didn’t believe we were being prepared by God for a fresh work of His Spirit.

    For Cathy and I, God has written three things upon our hearts that we must do during this next chapter of our lives.
    1. First, we will be spending a lot of uninterrupted time in prayer so God can expose and cleanse whatever is within us that will keep us from this next chapter in our lives and the impact He has enabled us to make.
    2. We will also be recalibrating our lifestyle to fulfill what we committed to do soon after we were married. We agreed to give our children and grandchildren the time needed to root them in a new family line that has broken the chains of unbelief and destruction we were raised in. To leave them with a heritage not of “perfect people,” but sojourners who didn’t have a clue of what we were getting into. But by facing the trials, failures, and opportunities we have been given by God, we have been led by the grace of Jesus to walk on an unfolding path paved by faith, love, and unsinkable hope—a path we have seen our family willing to walk with us.
    3. To take all that the last 35 years have taught us and fulfill God’s new call to extend the work of our church family much more aggressively into international opportunities that lay before us. This will include a much more active role in India, our two film projects, and their accompanying books. This has proven impossible while also fulfilling my role as your Senior Pastor.

    A few practical things:
    • During this transition I will provide all the support and guidance I can to the pastoral and administrative teams, as they settle into their new roles.
    • I will remain as the president of our church board for a minimum of three months up to one year to support a stable transition.
    • For the next three weekends I will be teaching on the vital, transferrable principles that will not only make for a great transition, but a solid foundation for the future.
    • Friday, March 25, Good Friday, we will have an evening of worship and prayer, dedicated to seeking God’s guidance and empowering for the future He has set before us.
    • Easter weekend will be my last service.

    Thank you for these 35 years that have transformed my life, Cathy’s life, and that of our entire family. You have shown unequalled mercy toward us, as we are obviously vessels of clay, but that makes it all the more clear that the matchless treasures of Jesus are the source of whatever is good. In this we have found our strength. We are a church family that does not give up on each other. We truly sympathize with our shared successes and struggles. Our strength lies in being authentic, real people as we walk together on this sojourn to the city whose maker and builder is God. We have built our church family with the best materials God can give and I’m convinced what we’ve built will stand the test of time.
    “Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, labor of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ in the sight of our God and Father” –1 Thessalonians 1:3
    In His Grace,
    Pastor, Calvary Chapel Boise”

  571. Michael — thanks for adding some history – I know what you mean about CC fatigue. I often feel that when blogging on this thread, especially if you’ve felt you have tried everything you know to give examples and concepts and ideas. It can be a spiritual fight.

    I was discussing this blog with other writiers today and we see the challenge is people jump on it and often don’t have the time or inclination to ready anything but the last ending comments. So they react to the last group of comments not knowing a conversation has been taking place for a long time with many of authors.

    We would all like a time machine from all our writing on these subjects to show others we are all processing the information over years – it is not just this one situation. There is an overall pattern and it takes all these voices to try to bring truth. I read in Psalms today to not allow your pride to overtake you away but also don’t allow the wicked to drive you away. The beautiful paradox to keep our self in check and at the same time to fight for what we believe is right. It is tiring and we can take it on some days more than others.

    I do remember reading the Bob Coy threads and how shocking the defense was! It does reveal how deeply attached we are to our leaders and what the Lord has to do to reveal we had a “misplaced loyalty’.

    Good job in keeping the fires stoked here and providing shelter as in a place to vent and speak. It’s doing good!

  572. Answers – thank you for posting this letter. It is powerful to read the exact words!

  573. #573, it makes one gasp a bit to see the way Bob handled the Word with such agility and be spoke so eloquently, while he was still hiding deep sin. A tender, godly conscience should not be able to do that. That is frightening and should serve as a warning that people can sound that “good” and still hide much. It’s a wake up call to be more careful. I also still maintain that what he was doing was known to someone in the body. Such was the case with Bob Coy. Now it’s a matter of who knew and how to deal with them. Perhaps they have already moved on, but I would want to be sure.

  574. J Keller 570

    Actually, I have been a part of this blog for some time “There is Hope in Him”. This blog has been a very healthy place to talk, share, grieve, process and build up each other which is not gossip. You however stated “Tucker probably preached from Titus last week which was not true and then David 553 asks you “J Keller “Tucker probably preached from Titus last week.”
    Do you fear he’s playing the “don’t ask questions and talk about anything or it’s gossip and slander” card”?
    Your untrue comments are gossip. If in fact as you stated “I was completely serious when I said it because Titus 3 is used often to keep people quiet, you should have stated that way and not involve Tucker.
    Also, I noticed in 526 “I’m reeling over the fact that there is a woman across town who is getting on with her life as if nothing happened at CC Boise in this last month. How nice for her that she is able to move on while people are in despair all over the Treasure Valley”. Wow, that is judgmental call, find one of my blogs and you will have an answerer and maybe show some compassion. Again, if you are so concerned about what is going on at CC Boise then go to church and see for yourself.

    Michael 555, I will be praying for you healing and rest, thank you for being balanced and sincere.

  575. @575 The fact that I said Tucker probably spoke from Titus last week is not gossip. It is a supposition. Shall I give you definitions from Websters? Let’s look:

    Gossip: casual or unconstrained conversation or reports about other people, typically involving details that are not confirmed as being true. Idle talk or rumor, especially about the personal affairs of others.

    I did not report that Tucker was speaking on Titus I said he probably is. I agree that what I said hasn’t been confirmed as true but I wasn’t stating it as fact, I was supposing. This is not idle talk, I am basing what I said from multiple experiences where a tactic of using scripture to cause people to fear has been practiced for the very reason I supposed it was.

    Supposition is the act of supposing. Supposition: an uncertain belief.

    Yes it’s uncertain – the word ‘probably’ implies assumption.

    You can chastise me for saying Tucker’s name out loud due to your “deepest held belief” that speaking about your leadership is gossip (unless you are praising them). But the fact is you haven’t been on this blog since January 21st. SRS and Oncelaw (who also was worried there was gossip going on) since January 22nd. Tam Mal made her final departure on January 24th in which she states this blog is beginning to stink. And that was the last we heard from any of you until today. Others from your church go further back. I’m not saying this is bad, it’s just fact. What is also factual is that several of you were speaking openly about how you were processing your shock and so our hearts went out to you. There is a reason we care – it’s because we were listening in sympathy and empathy.

    With the multiple mentions of gossip, a reoccurring theme with people from your church, why is it so ludicrous for me to suppose someone may be feeding you subtle references to gossip with scripture that encourages us not to slander?

    I’m sorry my line of thought doesn’t fall in line with the Calvary Chapel code of gossip but I don’t live by the booklet published by your church that forbids me to voice my concern. I’m not going to stop saying that something is wrong with an organization that expects a church full of people to just move on after what Bob and his mistress did to it. I’m not a counselor trained to deal with a betrayal this large, but common sense tells me that someone should look into a professionally proven way to deal with it instead of church as usual. In my way I do care and the way I show it is exposing the nonsense that is used to keep people from speaking freely and thinking sensibly.

    There are several people here who care. Could it be that some of us here have learned something along the way that might be helpful by what we have experienced and that’s why we are talking about it? To minimize what we say as gossip makes it easier for you shut our voices out.

  576. @575 part 2

    So you think that it’s ok that one of your former church leaders who professed the name of Christ while sleeping with the pastor for more than a decade, is now in a church across town and beginning to move in ministry again?

    Yes it’s a judgment call to say that it isn’t right. It’s a value judgment. Feel free to look up the meaning of that.

    Do you not realize that placing her in the slightest position of authority is potentially dangerous? The naïveté of that church astounds me if they know about her former long term affair with a pastor. If they don’t know then it astounds me that she and her family are keeping it a secret or that the CCB leadership hasn’t warned the pastor about her. If it were my church I would want to know for protection sake.

    It would be like hiring someone to be your bookkeeper who had been caught imbezzling money for a decade when working for another company.

    Why is that so unchristian and terrible to point that out? I feel like I’ve landed in some alternate universe.

  577. For anyone who would like to read the Calvary Chapel view on gossip and didn’t see it when JM posted earlier it’s an excerpt from a booklet published by CC. – its @431

  578. @571 Answers? thanks for posting the letter. Reading it again is worse than I have been remembering it.

    Especially points like this one where he talks about his next chapter in life with Cathy

    >3. To take all that the last 35 years have taught us and fulfill God’s new call to extend the work of our church family much more aggressively into international opportunities that lay before us. This will include a much more active role in India, our two film projects, and their accompanying books. This has proven impossible while also fulfilling my role as your Senior Pastor.

    He was chased out of the churched with threats of being exposed yet here he is basically asking us as his ‘church family’ to support his aggressive work in India, help him create movies and eventually buy the books he’s writing. It makes me sick.

    It is this attitude that has troubled me immensely more than the fact that Bob had an affair.

    I believe Tucker and the current leadership at CCB are honestly trying to do the right thing and be more transparent and accountable going forward but for me the well is tainted and I won’t be returning and will no longer attend any Calvary Chapel. I will be avoiding the Moses model at all costs.

    I don’t know where we will eventually end up but for now, we are hanging low and enjoying an extra day of skiing on the excellent snow we’ve been having.

  579. Okay J Keller @ 576,

    If it makes you feel better than you keep telling yourself you did not gossip, how about stirring up chaos? You made a statement, it was a foolish remark and meant to be hurtful not helpful. I am not chastising you I am calling you out to be respectful and be careful with your words something that is talked about in the bible.

    As for me not posting on this blog since 1/21 that is irrelevant. People can read and not have to respond every day, are you the judge by who blogs or not? If several people leave and have said this “is beginning to stink” that is their opinion and maybe they might be right on some level too.

    As for the CC gossip booklet, great I am glad you don’t live by it, we all should be living by the WORD.

    There is a great difference about caring and stirring up strife and again I repeat myself if you are so worried and concerned about CC Boise then you need to visit the church and see for yourself what is going on. This would be helpful before you report what you feel is your duty to keep us all informed-on issues of the church. Basically, I am challenging you to step out of your comfort zone of reporting and go to CC Boise to see what is actually taking place.

    @575 part 2

    There you go again making a comment/etc. whatever you want to call it “So you think meaning me it’s ok that one of your former church leaders ……….”
    Nowhere in my writings did I ever say that it was okay, but what I did speak about is the repent-ful heart of a woman. And again, you do not know the whole story and again you need to read what I have posted. It was not as you have stated “more than a decade”. Get your facts and information straight first.

    Yes, Drew @579, you are correct about the leadership being very transparent as was shared on Sunday at service. I hope you and your family will find a fellowship to grow in.

  580. Michael

    JM

    I do think others knew years before.
    I don’t know how long you were around CCA but I shared a lot years before his fall.
    Lots and lots of issues.
    I can write my own book.

  581. Michael
    I came here 10 years ago because a friend who also left found a place where CC was being discussed and at that time when the wounds were fresh, it was a good place to find comfort.

  582. @579 Drew

    I’m seeing the letter in a new light too. Could it be he was thinking there could be a good possibility he would have to flee the country once the truth came out? He could have written it hoping the international ministries could remain his – and that is giving him the benefit of the doubt – or he was giving himself an out, setting it up so to speak. Now that he is in Mexico (the last we heard) he probably thinks the majority believe he is doing ministry there.

    @580 Hope In Him

    You are missing the point of why I mentioned you hadn’t been here since 1/21. To clarify I’m not judging you or the others for that. It is relevant to my original point that the CCB people had been extremely quiet for 10 days which led me to make my comment about Titus.

    I concede my comment was framed in a slightly snide tone. For the snide tone I apologize and will try to work on that so not to offend. But I’m holding to my reason for suspecting what could have been true based on my own experience with the gossip tactic being used to shut down people’s voices.

    Part 2
    By telling me that I was being judgmental by reeling over the mystery woman’s ability to move on as if nothing happened, led me to believe you have a lack of concern about her doing so, and I was asking if you think it’s ok.

    If you are asking me to go back and read all your comments I can do that, but you could do the same for me instead of picking sentences out of context and hammering me on them.

    This is one of those times we will have to agree to disagree because I’m not going to help you see what I see. This gossip issue is a very old argument and I feel I’ve said enough on it now and have given it my best shot. I’ve stated my case on the two comments you “called me on” and I offer my apology for mentioning your pastors name in a comment and I will even apologize for caring about the welfare of the people at CCB in a way you perceive is divisive. It’s not my fight I realize that now. It’s yours and you will have to go through your own gauntlet alone. Some of us here have been trying to offer a helping hand to those of you who came here because of what we have learned from our own ordeals. Our mistake has been thinking you are ready to hear it. So I apologize for overloading you guys with information.

  583. Hannah @581

    I know you are addressing Michael and JM but I just want to say hi – I think I remember you from Alex’s Calvary Chapel Abuse blog when the Bob Coy Calvary Chapel megachurch pastor from Florida scandal broke. My friend discovered the CCA blog when we had been following a story on James MacDonald. It’s been awhile but I think I blogged there with my Detox Church Group name. Now that his blog is down I cant go back and check. Anyway, I always appreciated your strong voice for truth.

  584. Answers @571
    Thank you for finding that!

  585. J Keller–I find your questions reasonable.

    There have been other incidents like Coy and Caldwell and maybe they can teach us all some things. Here is a post I captured from the SSB site. (Link below.)

    “Anonymous
    APRIL 8, 2014 @ 11:50 AM
    The former pastor of Calvary Chapel of Castle Rock, Colorado, Brian D. Abeyta, fell in a similar way to Bob Coy. Many of the attendees offered quick and cheap grace to cover over everything, even though Abeyta did not actually repent. He was not honest about what he did. Abeyta minimized, blamed his wife, falsely accused his staff when they confronted him and averted telling the truth to a local news source with evasive religious lingo, also known as lying, imo. He needed time to process, realize the damage, feel the anger of those he hurt, and come to grips with the really of his sin. Bob Coy needs this, now.
    Abeyta never showed fruit of a repentance by paying back large sums of money he took/used that he should not have; and he has yet to reach out to the people he spiritually abused to manipulate seemingly to protect his position and income. The amount of wreckage in Abeyta’s wake is beyond what we can calculate. Bob Coy’s is by far greater as Coy’s church was 20,000 in attendance and 30 years old. Abeyta’s was a young and fairly small church.
    To date, Abeyta has yet to reach out to any of the people he creatively (and sometimes overtly) removed from the church. In one case he accused a man of getting too friendly with his wife, all the while he was chasing 4 other women. I don’t know the exact timing, but I do know that Abeyta had (and continues to have) no moral ground upon which to call others out in their sin. Bob Coy even had his own brother on staff stand up before the congregation to publicly confess his moral failure, all the while Bob had his own moral failure issues. As people think through the hypocrisy, they will understandably feel some righteous anger, as many did with Abeyta.
    Abeyta continues to be disqualified for leadership, yet he started a new church, Beauty for Ashes (Lone Tree, CO,) in the same area and filled it with the people who gave him the cheap grace. May the same mistake not be made with Bob Coy.
    Calvary Chapel needs a standard of real accountability for leaders in their churches. When the elders have no power, the board can be fired if they disagree with the pastor, and the people have no membership so they have no legal right to even see the finances, much less have any say, then the church is unguarded from a leader who can take advantage of them in numerous ways. Without these checks and balances, one man cannot reasonably deflect and avoid the many pitfalls of power, money, and rock star status that we see in the Calvary Chapel culture of leadership.”
    Link: https://spiritualsoundingboard.com/2014/04/08/calvary-chapel-pastor-bob-coys-story-of-moral-corruption-leads-calvary-chapel-members-to-share-their-personal-stories/comment-page-1/

    Also, Michael’s blog came up as a source on Abeyta.
    http://michaelnewnham.com/?p=13087

  586. Below is a link to another incredible article on abuse in the Christian community and how it has been handled so badly by so many.

    The Next Christian Sex-Abuse Scandal

    The Next Christian Sex-Abuse Scandal
    As sex-abuse allegations multiply, Billy Graham’s grandson is on a mission to 
persuade Protestant churches to c…

  587. Hannah,

    It is always a joy to see your name. I do not know if it is selfish on my part, but I wish you could write that book. I would read it.

    I wish I had arrived here much sooner, but, alas, I didn’t know what I know now. Although I am late to the party in regards to this blog, I did try to make myself aware of what was happening in CC for a very long time because I had a long history with them. I did take a break for a few years because of how hopeless it seemed and because, frankly, it had cost me so much.

    Finally, I began to do searches and found some sites that seemed to be tackling the CC problems, but from a more doctrinal point of view. I was probably more used to that because of the cult research that I was constantly doing. it was fine in the beginning, but I eventually noticed that these sites were not dealing with other issues of disqualification like pastoral abuse or adultery. I wrote to many of them trying to get them to become more balanced and include that issue in their thinking and their posting. I actually lobbied for the speakers to be more conditional in where they would speak so as not to undermine the abuses of CC. To not do so–to deliberately ignore the abuse–was to, in effect, throw the victims “under the bus” as though they did not exist or were not worth mentioning. I was appalled! One very good site made me so mad at the hypocrisy that I called them to account for it on their own page. They were sending their speakers into this sick system of churches with no outcry as to it’s multitudinous victims, or even the fact that this sick system was hiding adulterers. (Chuck admitted to putting disqualified pastors back into the pastorate without the knowledge of their congregations.)

    After the Hocking Debacle in 1992, I believed what I had suspected for about 10 years was true (Chuck had fallen)–I just needed proof. The systemic immorality was definitely a clue to anyone looking, though. I could see it. The more “spiritual” were not able to even consider it. It didn’t fit their paradigm. Or…could it be that so many in CC leadership were guilty of the same sin that it was impossible to expose it without the whole thing collapsing? Could that be what is happening now?

    One apologetic ministry that has been around for a very long time had two people on their board that were from Calvary Chapel. One was simultaneously a board member of CCCM and the other had his own CC church. It became interesting to see what this ministry was not reporting. Did these CC old-timers know about Chuck’s disqualification and run interference for him in this “discernment” ministry? Maybe. Maybe not. They deserve the question, nonetheless. Some in this ministry stood up with David Hocking at many conferences. I said that David Hocking is not a particularly bad person and in some ways I feel sorry for him. However, he allowed the appearance of evil to stand without any apology to the church at large for the fallout he created when he followed Smith back to CCCM after his moral failure. Other ministers in Orange County objected to what happened, but Chuck didn’t listen to any of them. I think one of the ODM’s is calling one of these former OC ministers to account now for his slide into error. I suspect some of the posters do not know of their own hypocrisy because this is an old story.

    There is some sort of invisible hold that CC seems to have on people’s minds that makes it hard for them to recognize problems even when they are right in front of them. Few are those that really come all the way out of CC. Some traditionalists have to defend CC because they can’t admit they might be wrong and don’t want some of the dirt to come out from which their fearless leader shielded them. Dirt that, in the end, will also indict their fearless leader, making the whole movement suspect. Some try to deal with what they see as an incursion of error, but never really deal with the depth of the CC problems with immorality. They stop short because, even though they came out of the CC camp–they didn’t come all the way out. They looked back and held onto a few things. This has caused more than a few blindspots and kept them from seeing what they still need to see.

    Because of the actions of these high-profile pastors, the name becomes nothing but a cause for shame and discord now. It would be better to come out and trust God for something better. He is not incapable or unwilling. We shouldn’t treat Him that way by thinking the present system is as good as it gets. It’s not. All that the CC bad fruit proves is what will happen when people follow a man-made system. It’s time to start over.

    Hannah, it would be interesting if we could all write books and put our info together like a puzzle. Perhaps it would be a frightening puzzle, though.

  588. I don’t see that my link came through properly on “The Next Christian Sex-Abuse Scandal”, so I will try again.

    http://prospect.org/article/next-christian-sex-abuse-scandal

  589. @589 JM- anyone who attends church should read that article. Anyone who has children should, too. It hits too close to home, and my family is still reeling from sexual abuse of my daughter from her teen uncle two (and other wrongful disciplining behaviors from “grandma” my son was telling me just last night)— and this wasn’t a church thing. The dynamic of a Narcissistic Family covering up abuse is, unfortunately all too common. Given that a church is a family, in a way, the dynamics are similar. I particularly like this:

    [i]“The reason why offenders get away with what they do is because we have too many cultures of silence,” Tchividjian said. “When something does surface, all too often the church leadership quiets it down. Because they’re concerned about reputation: ‘This could harm the name of Jesus, so let’s just take care of it internally.’”

    “Jesus doesn’t need your reputation!” Tchividjian declared. “When somebody says that, it’s a lie. Keeping things in the dark and allowing souls to be destroyed by abuse, that shames the Gospel. Jesus is all about transparency.”[/i]

    Since I did my own report to the police and then having a meeting with Child Protective Services later (I was sweating bullets during the second as the CPS case worker made sure to let me know they had the power to take our children) I found out this: if you are a parent and you expose your children to violence or abuse (or are aware and don’t report it), you may also be guilty of a crime. If this is the rubric of secular authority (which is a approved of by God), how much more sin is it in God’s eyes?

    Like Tchividjian comments in the article, he doesn’t trust anyone other than his wife with his children, having seen just how rampant this problem in his prosecutorial investigations. [b]1 in 4 girls and 1 in 6 boys will be victims of sexual abuse by age 18[/b]

    My daughter is one. I still think “something” happened with our boy more than being a witness, but I can’t be sure.

  590. Ugh. I use bb code on another board. I forgot to switch to html (maybe I should just write normally instead of trying to be clever ;^)

  591. Victor, my heart skipped a beat when I read that your family has suffered under abuse to one of your children. That is a pain no one should have to bear. However, you bless me that, in the middle of it all, you have discerned rightly how things work. The dynamics of a family who covers for one of its own who has shown a sick propensity, essentially sentences others to being victimized. Its exactly the same inside of a church system as the article brings out. A family that thinks they are doing the right thing by covering up are really doing the easy thing and serving themselves. Anyone trying to cover up abusive and/or immoral behavior by someone in Christian leadership is only perpetuating evil. It is why unrepentant leaders should have their names publicized. It may prevent them from getting away with starting another fellowship and victimizing others. (This keeps happening in the church world because of cover ups.)

    You are brave and you are smart to bring your situation to the authorities so there would be a chance that no one will suffer at the hands of that person again. Now people can be warned. May your family come together and help each other through this trying time. May God comfort your daughter and never let her believe she had any part in making such an awful thing happen. May God restore to her all that the enemy tried to take and give her joy again.

  592. JM @586

    Thanks for posting the example of Brian Abeyta article and link to the story of Bob Coy on Spiritual Sounding Board. I followed the link and there’s a heart wrenching testimony in that article from a former CC pastor’s wife and the trail of sin her husband was hiding before he was caught. This speaks perfectly to the point I, and others here, have made about pastors who have been caught in a scandal shouldn’t be allowed to start new churches; nor should the former staff member who had the long-term affair with Bob. It’s for the protection of other Christians who will be affected by their lack of moral fiber and ability to live a lie. What the people at Calvary Chapel Boise don’t seem to realize is when we get upset about it when we see that could be happening it’s because it’s a common occurrence within the Calvary Chapel system. But they seem to misinterpret our concern as unforgiveness or ill-will to the offending parties. Are they just refusing to see the trail of sin through the history of CC or is this all new to them?

    I’m copying your link in case anyone would like to go read that article about Bob Coy and others in the CC system that did what Bob Caldwell did for education sake:

    Link: https://spiritualsoundingboard.com/2014/04/08/calvary-chapel-pastor-bob-coys-story-of-moral-corruption-leads-calvary-chapel-members-to-share-their-personal-stories/comment-page-1/

  593. More Interesting Links about what an unaccountable CC pastor can do:

    http://www.times-standard.com/20110823/cardelli-gets-18-years-in-molestation-case

    http://www.nwfdailynews.com/news/20160428/former-pastor-pleads-in-murder-case-involving-missing-woman-videos

    Unfortunately, there are a lot more, but I think these continue to make the point. There is a huge problem with any system that would give a man as much power as the Moses Model and not screen for perverts or have a way to check in on them.

  594. J keller @ 583,

    You are correct we can agree to disagree, however I still challenge you to visit CC Boise for a more accurate picture of what is taking place.

  595. To all who have posted here in hopes of helping the folks at Calvary Chapel Boise, God bless your efforts. JKeller, in particular, thank you for your efforts to show the patterns of abuse, even when being attacked by the very people you were bringing truth to. I remember my own journey from being part of the indoctrinated group, to the realization I was supporting a system that was riddled with lies and prejudice. That time was very very painful. I saw my ignorance, as well as the deceit in the Calvary Chapel system. I have been able to get counsel and healing over the last few years.

    JM, thanks for all your posts to clarify that the system is corrupt, and that the sexual immorality is a symptom that points to a source, not the other way around.

    Folks that are still attending Calvary Chapel Boise, if the whole system isn’t drudged out, it will continue to infect and take staggering losses. It is bigger that who slept with who, and how many times. Jesus wants to bring light and truth. Allow it.

  596. @598
    C Truth, you are very gracious. I am sad that you have gone through so much. It is a comfort to hear that you were able to get good counseling, though. You sound very healthy. May God continue to redeem all of your suffering (and all the others who have shared their hearts here) and use you to help others.

    What you said in your last paragraph is very telling. This problem is big.

  597. There is Hope @595

    Good we will call a truce then!

    I did attend CCB for about 8 years and left for a variety of reasons. But I appreciate the invite.
    🙋🏻

  598. CTruth. Since learning about the Moses system, I just keep wondering if it’s a bad idea to attend ANY Calvary Chapel churches. Your comment “the deceit in the Calvary Chapel system” makes me concerned. Our family went to CC Boise for several years and then changed to a different CC that is closer to our home 4 years ago. Although we don’t see any “red flags” at our current CC, it makes me worry that the accountability thing is almost a given at some point. I realize that no pastor and no church is free from troubles & sin but this seems bigger. Any advice from anyone??

  599. Ask if they follow the Moses model and to see the by laws.

  600. If this went on for several years, it’s not so much an affair as it is a relationship. To continue this for such an extensive amount of time, indicates that it was more than just physical.
    I’m speculating, and I shouldn’t do that, because I don’t have all the facts.
    I do pray for him and his family, along with the other family involved. They have a long road ahead…

  601. SRS,

    The old argument that there are no “perfect churches so we shouldn’t be so picky” is actually a deflection from the real subject. The fact that you said, “I realize that no pastor and no church is free from troubles & sin” means that you already know that. The problem is that many, if not most churches operate as though people were perfect and they deal with inevitable failure by denying it or covering it up. This misguided policy perpetuates the harm by not loving the perpetrator enough to offer them help if they repent or consequences if they do not. Further, it is definitely not loving the victim who remains uncared for and sets a horrible example to the body of Christ and the watching world. What you and so many of us want is a church that models and demands true repentance instead. This takes away the possibility of sin becoming leaven throughout the body with whom you would like to become a part.

    What dusty said is a very good start. I would also want to know how they spend their money if you are a contributor. You should be able to know what his salary is. I would then ask even more questions. I would present the pastor with a lot of the information about CC gleaned from the postings here and see what his attitude is. If he dismisses it all as aberrations–you’re in the wrong place. Does he talk worshipful about Chuck Smith? Does he have a good relationship with the Assisting Pastor and the board? Does he seem defensive when approached or does he understand that, with all the failure out there, you are simply trying to protect your family? A good man will not mind the scrutiny if you do it in a humble manner. Again, a defensive posture on his part means you are in the wrong place.

    My list is by no means complete, but it will give you a good start. I hope so very much that it will go well.

  602. Kim, I think your queries are quite logical. I also humbly agree with you and others who have admonished us all to pray.

  603. SRS @ 599.
    I think it is a good idea to use the list that JM mentions on post # 602 to find out how your church functions. This is the government model each church uses to function and serve the congregants and community. The Moses model that is followed by the Calvary Chapel affiliates leaves no room for confronting a pastor at all, and that is only one of its flaws. There are some good men who are pastors at Calvary chapels locally. However, I chose not to go to another one because I wanted out of the system. It is dreadfully wrong. It can attract men who have little accountability and who do not respond to correction, like Bob Caldwell, Bob Coy, David Hocking, and many, many, many others. God bless your search for answers.

    JM, great way to list some items of importance when looking for a functioning, healthy church body. I had been thinking that a list would be helpful as people learn to use the discernment and wisdom God promises us, if only we will seek Him for it. God bless you.

  604. C Truth, as always, your comments are seasoned with grace. I should add one more thing of interest. Our host, Michael, does have a page with guidelines for a church Accountability Board and their procedures for pastors (including ones who fail in some way). Here is that link:http://michaelnewnham.com/?page_id=22711

    May God bless both you and SRS in your search for fellowship. For me, life is so complicated that sometimes it is good to be reminded that we believers ARE the church and that when two or more are gathered in His name, He will be there just as He promised. Somehow, it will be okay. Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness for they shall be filled.

  605. JKeller
    Thank you for your kind words.

    Kim
    There’s something called an ” emotional affair”. There doesn’t need to be a physical relationship. Jesus says if you even look.. He was trying to show His people who were under the law that thoughts are the same as action. Yes, we sometimes forget to pray. But that’s not a substitute for calling out sin. Just be ready to be called a ” sin sniffer” in attempting to do right. My pastor used to use this term. I believe it was a deliberate plan to keep people silent.

    There is wonderful, intelligent dialogue going on here.
    Those of us who attempted to follow the Holy Spirits lead in exposing sin in the camp, found themselves in persecutions way beyond anything that could have been imagined. It’s hard enough to work things out when it involves you…when it involves your kids , it is even more painful.
    Church people tell you to ” get over it already”, after all, we are all sinners…so the guilt is laid on you that you have a real problem.
    There is a lot to process in spiritual abuse. You may move on but you have a heightened awareness and sensitivity to manipulation, and cult mentality. You pick up on Christianese, and catch phrases. Then you realize…most important IMO, is that you never really learned the Bible correctly. Bible ” college”.. Aka c Smith indoctrination..parroting ..
    I rented enough C Smith cassettes to recognize it.
    Like method acting.
    Young men learn the method…
    Unfortunately..very little substance, much theatrics.

    Why do some get out and others don’t? You lose a lot when you leave a church. Especially if your kids are in the school and you are involved in ministry. Many parents have greatly invested in their kids future there, and many kids end up never venturing out of that bubble, into the ” real” world. In this respect it is a cult. Everything revolves around the church.
    The flesh is fed..the spiritual eyes are not open.

    JM
    Who would really want to read a book about a narcissistic Pastor and the antics of co dependent leadership? Lol..not really lol though…when I think back on those years I still can’t believe it. When I went on CCA…and prayed for the truth to come out. It did..it took several years..but the loyalty remains there. It’s uncanny and bizarre . I had someone who realized who i was chase me down and bully me though my husbands FB. She lied that she already messaged me which she did’t. This is someone with her own ministry. She said I was hiding behind a false name. My Hebrew name is Hannah.. They will go to all means to protect the sinner…

    So you lose your false friends, and when you are discerning you lose everyone because even Christians can’t handle you…they just don’t get the intensity of your issues with ” church” at large. They want a happy, easy, carefree life, and you are just too ” heavy”…( does anyone under 60 use that word)?

    Victor- my heart grieves for your situation. Praying for Gods continuous hand of mercy and grace over your families life’s.