May 252010
 

For those who were wondering why Skip Heitzig canceled Leonard Sweet…Moriel Ministries and Jacob Prasch give us a little insight

Actually, I gave you the insight when it happened…he caved in to the wicked demands of the ODM Inquisition.

“Mr. Sweet is by no scriptural standard a Christian, but by every reasonable standard a New Age mystic and a pure Gnostic. It was therefore with some delight we are informed from the USA that the event has been cancelled”

We believe pastor Heitzig made the correct decision. It may be that he and his staff were not fully informed about the nature of Mr. Sweet’s heretical beliefs at the time he agreed to host the conference. We are aware that multiple Calvary Chapel pastors contacted Pastor Heitzig expressing their own concerns, but in this regard we cannot comment further. Plainly however, it was not Skip Heitzig who was the villain. Mr. Sweet on the other hand propounds views nothing short of apostate which many would hold to be of demonic inspiration. Our own fear of course is that such an event featuring Mr. Sweet would have damaged the reputation of Calvary Chapel.

In light of these events we have removed our own report and we urge the various other ministries and websites to remove their own as well. None of us are immune from mistakes and in today’s world they can be very easy to make. We applaud Skip Heitzig’s actions and salute the godly integrity of his decision to cancel the event. We trust other websites and electronic newsletters will drop the matter quickly and consider it a closed affair.

There’s the deal Skip cut with the real devils in this debacle…slime Sweet or be silent when these talking snakes do so, and all will be forgiven.

Heitzigs actions do not reflect any sort of integrity or godliness, but are the cowardly reactions of what he is, a pure opportunist.

While Prasch was posting this ungodly libel of a brother, Heitzig was in Southern California hosting a faux “celebration” of Chuck Smiths life which was also an opportunity to pitch his new documentary “Riptide” which is about the past, present, and future of the Calvary Chapel movement…a future that I’m convinced still includes Skip in Southern California if he can find a way back in.

Let me be clear here at the risk of offense.

If this is the kind of leadership that CC is going to endorse the future looks bleak.

If the real power in the “movement” belongs to accusers of the brethren like Jacob Prasch then be assured that the Holy Spirit of truth will remove Himself from the premises.

A hate crime has been perpetrated against a brother by Prasch, the ODMs, and Heitzig…and I refuse to believe that God will not respond.

If hating the brethren and teaching the brethren to hate continues to be a Calvary distinctive then  “Ichabod” will replace the dove as a symbol of “movement” parked in the mud it has slung.

There’s a battle for the soul of the “Jesus Movement”…the question before the house is whether the real Jesus people will win.




  No Responses to “A Sweet Story of Hate”

  1. I have long since believed that I am more “Calvary” than much of what goes on in the movement. We are not the movement we once were. It appears that the movement has left many of us behind.

    So much of this stuff is so personality driven these days. It was not so in the early days. About 15 years ago I was sitting with my pastor (at the time) and we were listening to some early Jesus Movement music. He was too young to be around during the Jesus Movement, but one thing his noticed about the music was it’s simplicity, and direct expression of Jesus Christ; our love for Him our need for Him etc. Those days are long gone and they have been replaced with a cult of personalities that can pack the house as Jesus once did.

    At the same time I have little interest in restoring a movement. The calling is for our personal restoration, our personal repentence and our personal pursuit of the things of God, not of the things of men. Some will heed that call, and kindred spirits have a way of finding each other.

  2. Ok Michael, I attended the Calvary Chapel Celebration with my wife and friends. Now I am thankful for the Calvary Chapel movement because I got saved at Calvary Chapel and my marriage was healed and I was set free from drugs and the gang-banger life style. With that said, without being critical my first impression was what Skip doing there? Also, the promotion of the Riptide Documentary with Skip hosting made me wonder.

  3. Centy,

    You are more “Christian” than most people I know regardless of affiliation.

    I apologize upfront for any offense…but I’m madder than hell about this mess.

  4. “With that said, without being critical my first impression was what Skip doing there? Also, the promotion of the Riptide Documentary with Skip hosting made me wonder.”

    That was a question many were asking and came up with the same answer.

    I think the Jesus Movement was the last real American revival…but it is over if this is the future.

  5. “If this is the kind of leadership that CC is going to endorse the future looks bleak.

    If the real power in the “movement” belongs to accusers of the brethren like Jacob Prasch then be assured that the Holy Spirit of truth will remove Himself from the premises.”

    There is a cancer within the CC movement…and it is metastasizing.

    Corruption takes on many forms. Deceit and the works of men take on many forms.

    The Holy Spirit will most assuredly not honor this direction.

    It’s high time for the Great Physician to remove the cancer, but in His timing. Praying for justice, repentance, revival of Character and Truth within Calvary Chapel…a sweet crushing of God on His people to bring about true repentance.

  6. There is a vacuum of leadership and direction, a vacuum that opportunists like Heitzig want to capitalize on.
    He has lots of company.

    Chuck Smith wants to finish well without hassles…it ain’t going to work that way.

  7. Another thought…Only the Pastors that are in the documentary were the ones speaking and thanking Pastor Chuck. Coincidence? I say NOT.

  8. “Chuck Smith wants to finish well without hassles…it ain’t going to work that way.”

    God will work the way He wants to…Chuck Smith or no Chuck Smith.

  9. Sparkyuno…you’re a quick study. 🙂

    I concur…

  10. Centy said:
    I have long since believed that I am more “Calvary” than much of what goes on in the movement. We are not the movement we once were. It appears that the movement has left many of us behind.

    I agree with you on this. If CC is represented by ODM’s then I am saddened by that.

    I remember when people were being warned to “stay away” from those Calvary people because they have long hair, they play rock music and they are not like us. Now “we” seem to be doing the same thing.

    I know I am speaking in generalities and there are many CC folks who are not falling for the arrogance, lack of love and accusing of the brethren attitude that the ODM’s are demanding.

  11. I am sputtering I am so frustrated and sad over this situation.

    It occurs to me though, last week I watched that short video clip by Sweet and have been drawn to ponder Jesus ever since.

    I read the material on that event (which I didn’t attend so I only have removed impressions) and on Riptide and I am left thinking about the impact of Chuck and Calvary Chapel as a movement.

    I would much rather be left pondering Jesus.

  12. “It was therefore with some delight we are informed from the USA that the event has been cancelled”

    Delight in bullying? Sounds like arrogance…… Sigh.

  13. “None of us are immune from [charges of heresy] and in today’s world they can be very easy to make.”

    There, I fixed it for them.

  14. Does anyone else find it odd that Jacob Prasch posted,

    “Mr. Sweet is by no scriptural standard a Christian, but by every reasonable standard a New Age mystic and a pure Gnostic. It was therefore with some delight we are informed from the USA that the event has been cancelled.”

    and yet when Michael gave an open invitation to ANYONE to post Sweet’s heretical beliefs (why he isn’t a genuine believer in Christ), not a single one stepped forward to do so? And we know that many of them read every post and comment on PP…

    What is this ‘reasonable standard’ for being a ‘New Age mystic’ or a ‘pure Gnostic’, and where did Sweet cross that line? Would someone please come forward and dialog about this???

    Who might I ask is “the accuser of the brethren” anyway??? It sure seems obvious where the ODMs learned their craft:

    Revelation 12:10: “Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, “Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down.”

  15. By the way, I read where Jackie A. had prided herself in not responding to Michael’s post about Sweet. Admit it Jackie, you didn’t respond because you are just a coward and not walking in the truth!

  16. They won’t dialog…they use force and condemnation as their tools of the trade and interaction would display weakness.

  17. The truly amazing thing about the article is not just the damnation of Sweet but the total restoration of Heitzig.

    The first article took him to task and even brought up the scandal…now he’s clean as the driven snow.

    It shows the rules of the game…cross these guys and they’ll destroy you…sell your soul to them and you can be safe.

    It’s like protection money to the mob…

  18. In find it interesting that Heitzig has spoken at “The Cove” (Billy Graham Evangelistic Assc.training center) more than once. If Billy Grfaham was still active in his ministry he would come under the same hatchet that these guys are wielding against Sweet. I wonder if Heitzig would disassociate himself from him?

  19. “The first article took him to task and even brought up the scandal…now he’s clean as the driven snow.”

    I noticed that as well. Ethics apparently don’t count if you stay away from the wrong people….. nice call, Prasch.

  20. Why does anyone expect rationality from these attack dogs. Let the witch hunts begin.

  21. “It shows the rules of the game…cross these guys and they’ll destroy you…sell your soul to them and you can be safe.

    It’s like protection money to the mob…”

    Astute observation.

    It’s a language, however, that SOME (not nearly all) in the CC movement (and elsewhere) understand…and speak fluently themselves.

    “This thing of ours…”

    Interesting to view the definition of mafia and by association mafia-like tactics:

    “There are several theories about the origin of the term “Mafia” (sometimes spelled “Maffia” in early texts). The Sicilian adjective mafiusu may derive from the slang Arabic mahyas (مهياص), meaning “aggressive boasting, bragging”, or marfud مرفوض meaning “rejected”. Roughly translated, it means “swagger”, but can also be translated as “boldness, bravado”. In reference to a man, mafiusu in 19th century Sicily was ambiguous, signifying a bully, arrogant but also fearless, enterprising, and proud, according to scholar Diego Gambetta.”

  22. well, this is one lady that says bravo, way to go ODMs
    I’ll never buy another sweet potato as long as i live and now i must run and find what other products i must boycott – a Christian mustn’t think . . . . . . . . . . that battle is won till the day is done 😯 darn those torpedoes, hecks bells, and fight, fight, fight 😀

  23. Em,

    I like sweet potatoes and yams. They are good for you. I’ll just eat more to
    make up for your boycott! :mrgreen:

  24. Wow…this issue has sent me screaming through the house… in pain… I have yet to hear even one clear accusation against Sweet with any evidence.

    Very sad … .this one is very sad indeed.

  25. OK, so “Mr. Sweet on the other hand propounds views nothing short of apostate which many would hold to be of demonic inspiration. Our own fear of course is that such an event featuring Mr. Sweet would have damaged the reputation of Calvary Chapel.”

    Yet, Heitzig and others in the CC Movement are not demonically inspired when they lie, cheat, steal, abuse, threaten, etc….and those actions don’t “damage the reputation”…

    And, Heitzig was just ‘misinformed’ or ‘didn’t know’ with regards to Sweet…even though Sweet clearly articulates and holds to the essentials of the Faith…and his many literary works…which the ODMs clearly lack understanding to differentiate between non-essentials and use of communicative style to reach certain subcultures…have been public for decades.

    The “demonic inspiration” charge is an interesting one.

    Heitzig is probably agnostic regarding Sweet…if his past actions are proof of his character (or lack of).

    What probably happened was, the Sweet issue broke…Heitzig stuck his finger in the air…judged which direction the wind was blowing…and when the wind began to blow hard from the ODM corner…he cut and ran (kind of a pattern for him?)

  26. what is really heart breaking is that this isn’t about Truth; it’s about power… someone observed that, were Christ to walk the earth today, churches wouldn’t crucify Him, of course. They’d just make sure their doors were locked when He was in the neighborhood – pastors here excepted – who does He think He is anyway, so high and mighty and un-affiliated?…

    If i had a student attending one of these schools where he lectures, schools where the gospel is ignored or ridiculed, i’d thank God for this man. Pray for him. When you condemn him, you’re not doing anybody any good.

    i think my pontification attack has passed 😉

  27. Interesting to see Raul Ries on the Riptide poster.

    Actions (and inaction) speak louder than words.

  28. Believe,

    That is a correct assessment in my opinion.

  29. I’m curious about what Skip would say his reasonings were. Prasch really holds no credibility as far as I’m concerned, so I’m suspcious that he has any real insight into what happened.

    Know it won’t happen, but it would be interesting to hear “the rest of the story”

  30. Em,
    sadly, you are correct!
    …this IS about power!

  31. Prasch has always been wrong about 100% of the things he writes about.

  32. Condemn a man without a hearing … shut down the discussion without dialogue … this is evil beyond comprehension… oh and if CC is the ‘soul of the Jesus Movement’ that battle has long been over…

    Truth without love will always murder without conscience.

  33. Em, At times I wonder what things for me would have been like if I was alive when Jesus was. Would I have been one of those screaming to have Him crucified? Thankfully that’s not reality.

    The thing in all of this is how Prasch seems so comfortable in saying Sweet is not a believer. I can understand a dogmatic statement like that when it comes to a Mormon or JW apologist but never when it comes to a person who speaks so passionately about Jesus.

    I fear for anyone who would incorrectly consign a brother or sister to hell. That is a scary thing. Scarier is the reality that others fall under their influence and spread the same poison in their sphere of influence. At times I have to think satan is laughing at a church that is so easily led off of the straight and narrow.

  34. FWIW – Often misunderstood and misapplied, but the term ‘blasphemy of the Holy Spirit’ specifically is a reference to when the religious leaders looked at what was the work of the Spirit and called it the work of Satan.

    Like Erunner says in the 12:22 – I fear for anyone who incorrectly consigns a brother or sister to hell. To say that someone’s teaching is not just incorrect, but is actually Satanic is quite a charge to make.

  35. AV,

    I agree with all you said…a line has been crossed here.

  36. “It shows the rules of the game…cross these guys and they’ll destroy you…sell your soul to them and you can be safe.”

    It continues to sadden me how they protect men like Skip and Bob Grenier. When we ask why and how men like these can continue to prosper and flourish, the answer is always this. Money and power. IMO

    JEREMIAH – 12:1
    Righteous art thou, O LORD, when I plead with thee: yet let me talk with thee of thy judgments: Wherefore doth the way of the wicked prosper? wherefore are all they happy that deal very treacherously?

    The integrity of the upright guides them, but the unfaithful are destroyed by their duplicity. Wealth is worthless in the day of wrath, but righteousness delivers from death. (Proverbs 11:3-4)

    Whoever loves money never has money enough; whoever loves wealth is never satisfied with his income. This too is meaningless. As goods increase, so do those who consume them. And what benefit are they to the owner except to feast his eyes on them? (Ecclesiastes 5:10-11)

    Matthew 7:13
    [ The Narrow Way ] “Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it.

    what shall profit a man to gain the whole world and loose his soul?
    romans 8:2

  37. Why is it that these types of issues seem so clear to us and not even on the radar to the majority of CC attenders?

    Do we make to much of these things or is the narrow path also the one less traveled?

    Rocking the boat so often is tiring to me, but it seems impossible to stop.

  38. I watched the Godfather recently. You all probably remember what Michael Corleone did after Vito dropped dead in the garden, right?

    I’m just sayin’…. 🙂

  39. “Why is it that these types of issues seem so clear to us and not even on the radar to the majority of CC attenders?”

    Blue pill addiction.

  40. Buster, You’re referring to the Matrix aren’t you when it comes to those pills?? 🙂

  41. Morpheus: The Matrix is everywhere. It is all around us. Even now, in this very room. You can see it when you look out your window or when you turn on your television. You can feel it when you go to work… when you go to church… when you pay your taxes. It is the world that has been pulled over your eyes to blind you from the truth.
    Neo: What truth?
    Morpheus: That you are a slave, Neo. Like everyone else you were born into bondage. Into a prison that you cannot taste or see or touch. A prison for your mind.

  42. I think you have solved it Buster!

  43. And here I was thinking the other blue pill. 😉

  44. NA,”Why is it that these types of issues seem so clear to us and not even on the radar to the majority of CC attenders…”
    perhaps it is the atmosphere that empowers this website? God can speak to hearts here… and hearts respond – not in shallow emotionalism, but in a love for God’s Truth IMO

  45. speaking of… dunno what, but speaking 😆
    i got rid of TV before “Lost,” but have noticed that it captured everyone’s interest and now they can’t figure it out? i really find that humorous… although i did hear yesterday that someone had (figured it out) it was supposed to represent “Purgatory” and all the characters were dead people… now that is an applicable life lesson in there somewhere….

  46. The thing that struck me as sad and ridiculous when I read the article was…….”Our own fear of course is that such an event featuring Mr. Sweet would have damaged the reputation of Calvary Chapel.”

    Why is it that so few people seem concerned with Jesus?……. the reputation of CC? really? even if it was a spotless reputation, who gives a rip about protecting it? ……(and yes sadly I know the answer to that question)

    Not Alone, I can not speak for any other churches that have the name Calvary Chapel, but at our fellowship the reason these “clear issues” are not on the radar of our attendees is because we spend our time pointing people to Jesus.

    I am so heart broken for people who fellowship in places where they are pointed everywhere but to Jesus ;(

  47. Amen, Jeff…good word.

  48. I never got the show Lost, but this whole tragic situation reminds me of the show Hoarders.

    CC (as a general movement) is like what was once a really nice house, with room for people to “live in spiritualy” but then there was all of this trash and crap (scandal etc.) that people brought in but decided not to clean out (if people see us put trash on the curb they will know we have trash – so let’s just pile it up inside and try to hide it.) So now that once healthy and homey dwelling place for believers is on the verge of being uninhabitable because you can barely move around with all of the trash piled up.
    People are shouting that if it’s not cleaned up it will be condemed, but others are so used to the trash they think it’s treasure and don’t want to part with it. Then, the rats start taking it over – along with the bugs – and claiming it as their home – bringing in disease and making it very unhealthy.
    It is time for an intervention, and then a major house cleaning! (IMO)

  49. “Not Alone, I can not speak for any other churches that have the name Calvary Chapel, but at our fellowship the reason these “clear issues” are not on the radar of our attendees is because we spend our time pointing people to Jesus.I am so heart broken for people who fellowship in places where they are pointed everywhere but to Jesus ;( ”

    That’s great Jeff, I share the brokenness.

    “perhaps it is the atmosphere that empowers this website? God can speak to hearts here… and hearts respond – not in shallow emotionalism, but in a love for God’s Truth IMO”

    Em, IMO I like your opinion 🙂

  50. Jeff:
    “we spend our time pointing people to Jesus” Awesome!

    From what I have observed lately, that is what Sweet is doing too. If these ODM’s go after you next, then we will have your back too!

  51. For anyone who attended the celebration.. was Brian Brodersen there? Just curious.

  52. Isaiah you are so descriptive 🙂

    …and so right, IMO.

  53. “There’s a battle for the soul of the “Jesus Movement”…the question before the house is whether the real Jesus people will win.”–“think the Jesus Movement was the last real American revival…but it is over if this is the future.”

    Michael,
    I was a reader on a manuscript for the following book about the Jesus Movement:
    http://www.amazon.com/Reborn-Be-Wild-Reviving-Radical/dp/1434700178 (available next month)
     The book addresses much of this.  Mr. Underwood was ever a not a part of CC, but he was part of the Jesus Movement.   He examines the concerns of how a movement for passion for Christ  evaporated into conflict and competition. He compares the Christians in the churches of Asia Minor with today’s believers who have been sidetracked by the same tactics Satan used to neutralize that revival.
      The revival was marked by leaders serving in humility and simplicity–now the church has become cooperate and sophisticated.  I personally was saved during the Jesus movement at CC.   The leaders that I knew then were shepherding the flock by serving, living out as examples, called “Jesus Freaks” because of a radical calling and following of the Holy Spirit.  Today, much of the example that the world in the church (CC included) sees is competitiveness, dividing over matters not essential to Christian orthodoxy, unloving toward the brethren, and a church that is many ways living in the past.”  One wonders what happened to:  “We are not a denominational church, nor are we opposed to denominations as such, only to their overemphasis of the doctrinal differences that have led to the division of the body of Christ.”
     …Some how I don’t think that the reputation of CC needs to be worried about its  image and damage, there is already damage.   Perhaps we should all look above, then within and think about what it will cost to have the possibility of revival again.
     

  54. Skibum,

    I’d like to interview him and read the book if you can hook me up…

  55. Michael, I will e-mail and ask him….

  56. Sometimes I wonder how much of the so-called discernment ministry is just mental illness???

  57. SMW – my dad (who very well might be inflicted with ODMitis) taught me at a young age that “just because you’re paranoid – doesn’t mean they are not after you”

    Now how do you argue with that logic? (or any of their other logic for that matter)

  58. Not Alone:

    sorry if my comments came across wrong in any way……….it certainly was not my intention to separate myself from this community, or the way God speaks to, and through it. But rather from the ODM’s and others who are concerned with protecting Calvary Chapels reputation.

    Is 56…..thanks 🙂

  59. As a product of CC and a Sr. Pastor in CC for over 12 years I am not only thankful to not be ‘in fellowship’ any longer but I praise God for the deliverance from this Power Hungry, Man Loving organism.

    I am so sorry to many of the right, Holy and Godly CC Pastors that are a part of this community. I do not want to offend you at all with my statement. I know you are brother and you are doing with conviction what God has called you to do.

    However, at what point are we going to ask…’Isn’t God honored to share the stage with such outstanding Leaders, Teachers and Captains of Industry!’

    Friends, CC is NOT like the nation of Israel! As a believer, you are full of the Holy Spirit and able to get the *#&! out of this movement and continue to be used by God in an even greater way.

    For me, I’m walking around my house wondering why the shackles of man keep some of you from stepping out with conviction to a place God wants you to be.

    ‘It was for freedom that Christ has set us free, stand firm therefore and DO NOT submit again to any yoke of slavery!’ Galatians 5:1

  60. Mr. Prasch if you are reading this may I suggest you do a bit more research.

  61. WTC,
    I have a few questions for you
    cntorian@yahoo.com

  62. @Jim, I was there but did not see Brian Broderson, but here is a pic of the Pastors that took a picture at the end of the celebration. http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=4392240&id=642202528&ref=mf

  63. From Jacob Prasch Re: Leonard Sweet

    1) Mr. Sweet’s “apologia” for his actions as attempting to introduce the Gospel to an Emerging Post-Modern popular culture in his Quantum Faith book are implausible. He did not recontextualize the Gospel as Paul did to the Greco-Roman world of the 1st Century, but redefined it as the Post-Nicean Patristic authors did as “church fathers” to the Platonic world in the 4th-5th Centuries. St. Paul altered the packaging, Mr. Sweet altered the content as with all Emergent heresy.

    2) Mr. Sweet’s comparison of himself to John Wesley is ridiculous. John Wesley never redefined the Gospel nor was he opposed by discernment ministries as Mr. Sweet falsely asserts. John Wesley was opposed by the essentially and nearly exclusively Anglo-Catholic Church of England (as it was then) for being scripturally Evangelical, non-hierachical, and non-sacrimentalist.

    3) Only a few years ago Mr. Sweet web-posted his New Age convolution of the Gospel. If it was but a well intended but mistaken of his youth as he now claims, he would have withdrawn that specimen of New Age rubbish from the public domain altogether. His continued defense of the Gnostic heretic and false brother Brian McLaren is self-explanatory; nothing further requires saying.

    4) My reaction to Skip Heitzig’s decision concerned the wisdom of his decision only, and it was the right and godly decision. I offered no further comment on any scandals or other actions by Skip Heitzig which are better addressed to him. I only dealt with his very prudent action in canceling Mr. Sweet exclusively. Other issues or questions some may raise concerning him are not the issue I addressed.

  64. More accusations, no proof, no guts…just a fat coward shooting at the brethren from behind a computer screen.

  65. “Jesus Manifesto by Leonard Sweet & Frank Viola

    We hold these truths to be biblically-evident, that all people have fallen short of the glory of God, that they are endowed by their Creator with a Savior, who is Jesus of Nazareth, the Christ, our risen, rising, and reigning Lord.

    Jesus Christ is the subject, goal, and motivation of our faith and devotion.

    Jesus Christ came to show us how to be a new kind of human, a Jesus kind of human. He came to do what Adam failed to do. He is the firstborn of a new humanity.

    Jesus Christ is alive. He lives. He lives His resurrection life in and through us—members of His beloved bride—the body of Christ on earth.

    Jesus is the Way. What is Christianity? It is Christ.

    Jesus is the Life. What is the gospel? It is Christ.

    Jesus is the Truth. What is truth? It is Christ.

    The “Jesus of History” cannot be separated from the “Christ of Faith.” The Jesus who walked the shores of Galilee is the same person who indwells the church today.

    We declare Jesus to be the gravitational pull that brings everything together and gives them significance, reality, and meaning. Without Him, all things lose their value. Without Him, all things are but detached pieces floating around in space.

    We declare that God’s mission in the world is less the business of fixing things that have gone wrong in our lives and more the relentless pursuit of finding us in our brokenness and giving us Christ as sheer Gift.

    We declare that God doesn’t give us “things” – whether they be values, virtues, truths, or gifts. The Father gives us His Son – Jesus Christ – who is the embodiment of all spiritual values, virtues, truths, and gifts.

    We declare that only Jesus can transfix and transfigure the void at the heart of the church. God has chosen to vest all power, authority, and life in the living Christ. And God in Christ is only known fully in and through His church. God has no hands but our hands; no feet but our feet. If we are doing today what Jesus did then, we wouldn’t be doing what Jesus did in the past. We’d be doing what Jesus is doing today.

    We, therefore, members of the body of Christ, assembled in virtual space and real space, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the moral integrity of our intentions, do, in the name, and by the authority of the holy Scriptures, solemnly publish and declare, that we return to the absolute preeminence and sovereignty of Jesus—the triumphant, victorious, resurrected, ascended, enthroned, glorified, Lord of the universe and God’s All in All.

    And for the support of this Manifesto, with a firm reliance on God our Creator, we mutually pledge to each other our lives, our fortunes, and our sacred honor in pursuit of our passion, our mission, and our very life – which is Christ Jesus, this world’s true Lord.”

  66. Oh, look — here’s another version of that poster:

    http://yfrog.com/5sriptide2aj

  67. I am in possession of a photo of Bob Grenier (my step-dad) with Chuck Smith, Skip Heitzig, Raul Ries and I think Lance Cook and even George Bryson are in the photo.

    It’s from Skip’s Riptide event the other night. From the vid I watched, it was pretty darn man-centered…almost cult-like in a way.

    The CC “Who’s Who” of financial scandal, lying, adultery, child abuse and Calvinist witch hunts surrounding the Guru of the Movement.

    I still don’t understand how a guy like Len Sweet can be condemned for heresy…while guys like my step-dad Bob Grenier and guys like Heitzig, Ries, Cook and Bryson (and some others) can do what they do…not be held accountable…and be embraced as “men of God” and leaders to follow…certainly Chuck is aware of the behavior of these guys…or is he that insulated now?

    Attorney Roger Wing, head of CCOF is certainly aware of these issues and has been for some time.

    I’m surprised they didn’t invite Kempner.

  68. …I guess it takes and arrest, a conviction or a judgment to get accountability.

    Truth and Justice must not be in the Distinctives.

  69. Believe. Your Step Dad is listed as the contact for the CC Nor Cal Regional Pastors Conference.

    Power plays initiated by shrewd men are misinterpreted by this clan as an anointed authority from God.

    Sometimes only the bema seat of Christ can unravel such a mess.

  70. I read the website to try to get a context as to why these people believe what they believe or think. They have an answer for everything, it is all neatly bundled and internally consistent. It is the “Total Package”. What an incredibly sad place to live, I would hate to know everything, what an awesome responsibility it must be to carry such a burden. I went to church with such people, good people, true people, incredibly sad and burdened people.

    I was wondering Mr. Prasch do you “believe” in the theory of electricity and Magnetism, plate tectonics, general relativity, etc?

  71. perhaps,it’s buried in the above manifesto or an assumption that came before it… but, for all that is declared there… where is the necessity of the atonement that Jesus, Immanuel only, could achieve? that mysterious “It is finished” declaration? It was far more than an example…

  72. Em. I believe in a biblical oriented atonement. I proclaim and explain the biblical atonement accomplished by Christ crucified to those outside of the faith and affirm the foundational reality and value of the atonement to those of the faith.

    I can see clearly that Viola and Sweet are addressing an evangelical culture that affirms the propositions of the biblical atonement but fails to submit to the Risen Person of Christ and to and learn how to live the life the Risen Christ provides.

    We in essence defend the life that we refuse to live.

    Viola and Sweet are seeking to address this void rather than craft a statement of belief to gain the acclaim of the choir.

  73. “Power plays initiated by shrewd men are misinterpreted by this clan as an anointed authority from God.

    Sometimes only the bema seat of Christ can unravel such a mess.”

    vic has spoken well. and he is right, we might never see justice in this life.. The reality is justice is the very thing we want to avoid from God. If God is truly just, He will send each of us to hell.. We trust in His mercy.

  74. kinda funny. I looked over that pic of all the CC pastors with Chuck and my former pastor is there among them.

  75. Note to WTC – there were some who were Pilgrims, and some who were Puritans.

  76. Bob Middleton Said:
    May 25, 2010 at 10:23 am
    In find it interesting that Heitzig has spoken at “The Cove” (Billy Graham Evangelistic Assc.training center) more than once. If Billy Graham was still active in his ministry he would come under the same hatchet that these guys are wielding against Sweet. I wonder if Heitzig would disassociate himself from him?

    Bob,
    They have been there and done that!
    The ODM’s and their ilk were pounding on Billy Graham a few years ago, as he had the audacity to mingle with Catholics and others from groups they didn’t approve of.
    But now that he is not actively preaching, they have found some younger prey to attack.

  77. Vic said, “Believe. Your Step Dad is listed as the contact for the CC Nor Cal Regional Pastors Conference.
    Power plays initiated by shrewd men are misinterpreted by this clan as an anointed authority from God.”

    Vic, it is so stumbling. They appear to award “bad” and ignore “good”…it’s almost mafia like.

    If you pledge undying loyalty to the Machine, you are rewarded, rather than held accountable.

    I do not see how this practice is even Christian. I do not see how the Holy Spirit is a part of this.

    And to think I sent tons of testimonies and information about all manner of financial, physical and spiritual abuses to Roger Wing of CCOF, trusting that he and Calvary Chapel would seek justice, truth and right. What a fool I was. Sending sensitive information to the man who is in charge of protecting the very abusers and wrongdoers he is paid to protect.

    This blatant wrongdoing and injustice tempts me to anger. God help me.

  78. Believe,
    It’s okay. Don’t be too hard on yourself. When the veil is lifted we are to walk as people led by the light.

    Funny thing is, I’m looking at a document right now where Mr. WIng and two other CC Pastors authorized 3,000.00 of a churches money (via ‘benevolence’) to go to a wealthy man living in Newport Beach that was allowing CC Pastor’s to stay at his beachfront home for free and/or nominal cost.

    I guess the Fourteen Million Dollar home wasn’t enough for the man that some had to gather all the widows mite’s and send them to a person in need.

    I’m quite certain that most of the people that give to that CC know their money is going to the Pastor’s wife who has an incredibly illustrious spending habit. One of the staff pastors is well aware and just may stand up some day.

  79. Another Voice,
    Hmmmm. Puritan and Pilgrim’s!

    Want to elaborate more?

  80. WTC…I think AV is drawing a distinction between those within CC who want to reform it and those who would leave CC and do things differently.

    There was a distinction between the Pilgrims and the Puritans…and it was kind of like that with regards to the Church of England.

  81. ….meaning some choose to stay in CC…and do things differently…while others would choose to leave and do things differently outside of CC. Both camps pretty much agree there is a problem.

  82. Here’s another thing that really really bothers me.

    Gary Ruff and Raul Ries were aware of physically abusive actions (Gary witnessed it)…all the way back in 1985. Gary spoke at length with my brother about it…in real time.

    Gary even asked my mom about what he saw.

    Gary and Raul didn’t report. They could have saved us from a lot more abuse that happened after that date.

    I poured my heart out to Gary…who is on Bob’s CC Visalia Board…about the whole Bob situation and the abuse. To think I trusted this guy. I opened up to him and even cried…I trusted him as a pastor…as a man of God…to do the right thing. Come to find out, he and the others…and their attorney Roger Wing…are only interested in protecting Bob and Calvary Chapel…and themselves.

    This is not right. I do not see how God is behind these kinds of actions and cover-ups.

    When did wrong become right and something to be spun over as grace and mercy?

  83. WTC said, “Funny thing is, I’m looking at a document right now where Mr. WIng and two other CC Pastors authorized 3,000.00 of a churches money (via ‘benevolence’) to go to a wealthy man living in Newport Beach that was allowing CC Pastor’s to stay at his beachfront home for free and/or nominal cost.”

    That is absolutely ridiculous.

    That is stealing or a gross misuse of funds at very best. But, I’m sure the spin-meisters call it something else…it was probably somehow a “ministry opportunity”…

  84. Bob would take anywhere from $150 to $400 cash in an envelope as “petty cash” on every one of his very frequent trips to SoCal. He goes there an awful lot.

    One of my brothers traveled with Bob and my mom on many of the trips over the years.

    They’d use the cash to buy all kinds of personal stuff. My brother got a really expensive pair of sunglasses at South Coast Plaza on one occasion…courtesy of the good givers at Calvary Visalia.

    This was common practice. Guess Bob learned this kind of behavior is OK…since he saw all his Big Time buddies (who he aspires to) doing it and figures…what the heck…it’s just a few hundred bucks here and there…and I deserve it.

    The information is corroborated by my brother, a former bookkeeper who is on record as confirming that Bob took $150 to $400 cash each trip and very rarely provided receipts or supporting documentation for where the money went.

    It is also corroborated by a former long-time staff member who is on record and verifies the bookkeeper’s testimony. Three credible witnesses…a family member, a former long-time bookkeeper and a former long-time staff member.

    Roger Wing has had the info for quite some time…but again, it’s Roger’s (and CCOF’s) job, apparently, to protect the rogue pastor…not to seek Justice and Truth and Accountability.

    If this is what CC is all about…I do not see how God will honor this.

  85. Jeff Stewart said:
    “Not Alone:
    sorry if my comments came across wrong in any way……….it certainly was not my intention to separate myself from this community, or the way God speaks to, and through it. But rather from the ODM’s and others who are concerned with protecting Calvary Chapels reputation.”

    No worries Jeff, nothing to say sorry for. I appreciated your churches focus and shared in your brokenness. I learned the hard way, here at PP, to take responses to my post in the most positive way. I’m trying to give everyone the same courtesy I would like for myself.

  86. FYI, Pastor Dave and other CC pastors…the good ones…I was wrong to ever have lashed out all you guys. I’ve repented of that. It was sin and a wrong response to the deep conflictedness I have knowing all I know…witnessing all I’ve witnessed…and living through all I’ve lived through (and live through).

    I really Believe that God Is, Jesus Is the Messiah…and that we require Salvation and it is through Faith in Jesus Christ.

    I also really believe that there is a whole bunch of people and a whole bunch of harm being done to the Church by the way CC chooses to handle its Business.

    You guys all deal with people who get petty and complain about all kinds of unimportant issues. Some cause you a lot of trouble. Many people church-hop and do all kinds of stuff that makes you want to pull your hair out.

    I get that. I’ve seen that, too.

    However, don’t let the bad guys spin these major issues as similar to those instances. They are not. There is a ton of damage that’s been done in the name of our Lord…and terrible damage that continues to be done.

    CC has a real problem. You guys should stand up and ask Roger Wing, Brian Brodersen, even Chuck Smith…some questions. Why is this stuff happening? Why are they covering it up? Why haven’t they taken action?

    Who is going to stand up for what is right and righteous?

    I am a pee-on. There is not much I can do. I am easily dismissed as bitter, hateful, unforgiving, crazy, a liar, you name it. I used to be the “golden boy” when I lied and went with the program and enabled the abuse and wrongdoing.

    The one thing I am…someone who has faced down serious sin in his own life…without being caught…someone who responds to the Holy Spirit. Someone who has taken a clear stand for what’s right.

    My heart still breaks for my brothers…and for all the many people Bob has left in ruin in his wake as power-broker at Calvary Visalia.

    These people are truly part of “the least of these”…they have been cut off, back-bitten, lied about, fired, removed, yelled at, cheated, physically abused, stumbled and disillusioned.

    These people matter. The people who will join their ranks in the future due to the continuing unchecked sin…matter.

    I expect this kind of behavior and the protection of it and the apathy of the men who can really do something about it…from worldly organizations.

    I do not accept it as a reality of the Church. We have the Holy Spirit and the Spirit of Truth. This is unacceptable.

  87. Believe,
    can you post the photo you referenced earlier? I’d love to see it.

    Lastly, I am so very thankful for Pastor Chuck and it hurts me greatly to see the junk surrounding him.

  88. Good CC pastors…here’s another thing to consider.

    If I am lying…then why doesn’t Bob and his Buddies and even Roger Wing and CC sue me?

    Why not? If I am slandering or committing libel…why don’t they sue me?

    Certainly CC is not above law suits…Chuck Smith has entered into litigation before with regards to the satellite radio network…so it can’t be that they are principled against law suits.

    You know why? Because they know that I will have every last one of them and a million others deposed…and that through “discovery”…all the many closets will be opened for all to see…all the Skeletons will come tumbling out for the world to see.

    The media will have a feeding frenzy.

    What a fearful position to be in…to have to protect and guard so many lies and secrets.

    What freedom and peace in speaking the Truth and confronting your own sin directly and ripping your own Skeletons out of your own closet and facing them down and truly repenting when the Holy Spirit convicts you.

    We all sin…we all require confession and repentance.

    You cannot, however, skip the confession and repentance steps. That’s not how it works.

  89. Believe, I share your anger and embarrassment. So many of us poured our hearts out in those testimonials and to think our stories are in the very hands of those who are already using them against us IMO. This may seem petty but it was a clear indicator to me, after the turning over, that we all started losing CCV Face Book friends like crazy (not really a big issue, just an indicator). So not only did Bob get the testimonials with no response to us, but he also advised his followers to disassociate with us. What else is happening in the background? It’s upsetting at the least.

    You shared once how they would listen to counseling sessions at home with their friends and laugh, I wonder what they are doing to all of us now.

    These men are just plain bad. They think they are above the law, men and God’s. It makes me very angry to think that the very person who did these things to us, now sits in his big church office celebrating his victories over causing our pain, once again. How evil is that? It’s like comic book villain type of behavior.

    Just like I said to Geoff, we all get starstruck sometimes and we don’t listen to that small voice saying “don’t trust them”. Mine was screaming at that time. But what’s done is done. We just have to chalk it up to another of their many crimes.

    There must be a reason for all of this, I know my wife and I are changed positively because of it.

    But it’s similar to loosing a limb in an accident, there maybe positive life/spiritual/attitude changes because of it, but wouldn’t be nice to have your arm back?

  90. “We all sin…we all require confession and repentance.
    You cannot, however, skip the confession and repentance steps. That’s not how it works.”

    You got that right brother, especially when it is from a trusted pastor, who’s very nature intrudes into your personal life with the gracefulness of a bull in a china shop.

  91. Man that picture is worth a thousand words, none I care to share on here. 😉

    Its like a class photo from the School for Scoundrels. There’s your step-dad, standing right next to the anointed one. I’m sorry I don’t have the same respect for Chuck that the rest of you have, especially when I see him standing next to a man that he knows full well abused his wife and small children for multiple years , stole from the church and all those other awful things we have listed over and over and over.

    I’m frankly angrily tired of the whole mess, if it wasn’t for the Holy Spirits hand on my life, I’d break and go vigilantly on these crooks and thieves……….

    Please forgive me PP people. I know its wrong, I’m just tired of holding it in.

  92. NA, the taped counseling sessions and Bob playing and replaying them in our home…and watching the sick pleasure he had with this power and dirt on these people…and knowing these people well…good people who sinned and confessed and repented…but that still wasn’t good enough for ol’ Bob.

    Makes me want to vomit.

    He put these poor families through a living hell. No amount of confession and repentance was good enough…they had to follow his formula and basically give their souls over to him to gain their salvation back. When they at all resisted to his way…they were off the island and soundly ridiculed and back-bitten.

    Cult-like and so wrong. God will be the ultimate Judge. Until then, it makes me sick…and I do not see how this grotesque example and any of the many many other examples of wrongdoing are of the Spirit.

    Bob has never confessed or repented or sought forgiveness and reconciliation from the people referenced in this post. And, they are like sand on the beach…one of many instances of wrongdoing that is left unresolved…except in Bob’s own mind.

  93. “I am a pee-on”

    Believe, Please don’t refer to yourself in this manner regardless of what you are seeking to convey. It conjures up such sadness and pain that I hope you will one day leave behind as you move forward into what God has for you. The memories will probably remain. God can use it all for good things as one day someone will need the comfort you will be able to offer. God bless.

    2Corinthians 1:2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
    2Corinthians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort;
    2Corinthians 1:4 who comforteth us in all our affliction, that we may be able to comfort them that are in any affliction, through the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God.
    2Corinthians 1:5 For as the sufferings of Christ abound unto us, even so our comfort also aboundeth through Christ.
    2Corinthians 1:6 But whether we are afflicted, it is for your comfort and salvation; or whether we are comforted, it is for your comfort, which worketh in the patient enduring of the same sufferings which we also suffer:
    2Corinthians 1:7 and our hope for you is stedfast; knowing that, as ye are partakers of the sufferings, so also are ye of the comfort.

  94. Wow, just looked at the pic of all the guys surrounding Pastor Chuck. I almost barfed. My former pastor from a CC in San Diego County is right in there. This is a man who took his wife of 30 years and tossed her out like an old dish towel because she didn’t want to help him imitate at home the porn that he was watching while he “studied” at the church office in the middle of the night. The church elders dismissed him. He has since gone on to remarry and still considers himself a pastor. Lord have mercy!

  95. Thanks E…I could use a little counseling time today… Thank you for the Scriptural reminders. They are comforting and appreciated. 🙂

  96. one thing I will say about that picture of all those pastors with chuck: only three or four hawaiian shirts! yeah! change is coming!!! 8)

  97. It is too early in the season. Except for the more hard-core, the hawaiian uniform doesn’t come to play until the Senior Pastor’s Conf in June. There is proper form, you know.

  98. Hop
    lol!!! I wear biker T-shirts to conference.

  99. CK,

    Remember “Grace Changes Everything”….
    This is sadly normal. Sin is justified in the name of love and grace. Strangely, Paul saw the same problem. But, he dealt with it. “Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound?”
    Nothing new under the sun…

  100. Hey Centy, are you going to conference? I’m wondering if King R will be there. 😉

  101. With the Senior Pastor Conference approaching, I have changed my gravatar. 🙂

  102. Any photoshop requests? I could change their attire, or substitute some different characters… 🙂

  103. Buster….Could you erase all the bad guys?

  104. Just curious – was Jon Courson missing in that picture?
    – how is a natural riptide defined? any application?

  105. Buster,

    Could you put the “bad guys” into zute suits or dress them like gangsters? 😀

  106. hi Captain, how are you feeling? been praying for you.

    About your former ‘pastor’ you said, “and still considers himself a pastor. Lord have mercy!”…I would like to add…it would seem that other pastors still consider him that as well…if there has been no admission of sin nor repentance…it is a shame and truly sad…speaks volumes to me about those who accept his ‘position’

  107. Might be tricky… You guys did see I had altered the poster in a link above, right? (I don’t like this recent comments paging thing…)

  108. Not Alone… ((hugs))) ….just ‘cuz 😉

  109. Not Alone, (7:46) it is very difficult to have respect…wait….respect…um…shoot now my tongue is bleeding….how in the world could respect be found in that kind of situation -abuse of women and children? sigh 🙁

    Not Alone, you are not alone.

  110. Believe said, “I am easily dismissed as bitter, hateful, unforgiving, crazy, a liar, you name it.”

    Ha!!! Everyone of us, well most of us, have been labeled as such.

    we are not pee-ons….we are children of the King…THE King!!

    doesn’t matter what they call us, what they thing of us…won’t change…That is Good News!! 🙂

  111. Ohhhhh Buster, your gonna get in trouble…

  112. just reread Prasch’ story on Sweet, and Cof A. I found this statement interesting.

    “Our own fear of course is that such an event featuring Mr. Sweet would have damaged the reputation of Calvary Chapel. ”

    Bull. The original article was condemning of Cof A and the movement in general and ended with a list of pastors within the CC movement that were “approved” by Moriel. There was no inkling whatsovever of concern for the reputation of Clavary Chapel.

  113. How do you see the earlier comments? It says there’s 114 comments total but I can only see a few.

    Help….

  114. London, just above the “Leave a Reply” is “Older Comments”

  115. I don’t understand “Another wave is our only hope” Are we stuck in the doldrums? Is not the One who began a work in us faithful to complete it? Are we incapable of faithfully walking with Jesus without depending on a strong set of waves to move us? Is Jesus really enough?

  116. Centy,

    You’re asking really good questions…

  117. There is nothing quite as ugly as over reaching to the point of using words like heretic, apostate, and Gnostic and claiming that a man is by ‘no reasonable standard a Christian.’

    I will NEVER read or listen to another teaching or posting from Moriel in search of the truth. They have plainly judged and condemned a man… thank God there is no possibility of putting someone to the fire these days. Those folk would do it eagerly and joyfully and in the belief that they were doing service to God.

    Leonard Sweet is a brother in Christ and has been scandalously lied about and accused by Moriel Ministries.

  118. BD,

    I agree…the question in my mind is why others won’t speak up.
    I guess they’ll wait until it’s their turn….

  119. I just did away with the multi page comments…we’ll do it old school. 🙂

  120. OK, I’ll probably need to repent for this one…but here goes:

    http://picasaweb.google.com/101948064985883266917/RiptideTheRedux#5475706329516573346

  121. H’t had a chance to research. What’s the significance of “RIPTIDE”? What does it mean?

  122. believe……. that’s funny… 8)

  123. Scott,

    Thats a new documentary by Heitzig about Calvary.

  124. TY, Michael.

  125. Believe #122 … thanks for the chuckle

    while my mind is playing with words here, ‘riptide’ doen’t have a good connotation either, as in don’t get caught in a …..

    just sayin 🙄

  126. old school is good school as far as that comment thing is concerned.
    thx

  127. Does anyone know if AB did that poster? I’m kinda missing him these days…

  128. centy-

    “I don’t understand “Another wave is our only hope” Are we stuck in the doldrums? Is not the One who began a work in us faithful to complete it? Are we incapable of faithfully walking with Jesus without depending on a strong set of waves to move us? Is Jesus really enough?”

    1. Yes I believe many are

  129. Stupid new to me laptop. I hate the mouse. It does phantom things at a hairs touch and it’s in the way when typing.

  130. WTC… 8)

    I guess the photographer shouldn’t have “touched God’s anointed”…and I guess confession and repentance is only for jerks and fools like me who sit in the pews.

  131. So to continue-

    1. Yes I believe many are in the duldrums. There has become a sense of legalistic depression because of a focus on outward behavior rather than on living the life of the new creation.
    2.Yes He is capable and faithful enough. Most just don’t understand the new creation and it’s ramifications and never move forward from Romans chapter seven and into eight.
    They keep getting told they’ll never be good enough to meet the standard and will always stumble in sin, rather than taught that their new life includes a new heart with a good nature capable of maintaining that life when empowered by the indwelling Spirit. They never mature.
    3. Yes and no. We again get caught up in trying to be “something” rather than submitting /presenting our lives to God. So yes if we are abiding in Christ, praying without ceasing and walking in the Spirit. No, because we don’t. We certainly better be on the road to maturity though.But rather than waves we need the consistency that comes from the sound doctrine from the historical church, while remaining open to the leading of the Spirit in our own experience.
    4.Of course He is. He is in fact more than enough.

    There. Got it typed without any major mystery mouse moves.

  132. Listening to Paul Tripp at http://desiringgod.org/live/

  133. Gotta say, it makes me wonder if some of these guys really believe what they’re preaching.

    The moral and financial corruption…and the cover-ups…and the lying…are absolutely ridiculous.

    And don’t even think about confronting it if you become a victim of one of these guys…no Matthew 18 for you….and you’ll be targeted as an enemy instead of a fellow believer who you need to reconcile with and do the right thing and repent and seek forgiveness from.

    Qualifications (character) of a pastor? Fo-get-a-bout-it. Accountability and church discipline? Fo-get-a-bout-it.

    Weez don’t do those things…”this thing of ours”…

  134. …I mean, I do kind of feel like a sucker.

    All these years I’ve heard these guys preach confession and repentance of sin. All the things one should and shouldn’t do.

    We need to submit to the authority of Scripture.

    We need to be loving.

    We need to be gracious and merciful.

    Hmmm. How is beating your kids, then abusing them as adults by being a total jerk to them and their spouses and their other family members…then being confronted within the family in an effort to correct the behavior…FROM THE BIBLE…based on Truth…and the Truth of what’s happened in the family relationship over the years….

    …and then denying that process…calling us liars..cutting us off, casting us out and severing a relationship with our mother…how is that gracious, merciful and loving?

    How is that righteous?

    How is that standing on the authority of Scripture?

    Rather than these guys submitting themselves to the authority of Scripture…when they are in CLEAR SIN…and are confronted in their sin…they lie and cover-up and simply abuse harder and lie more….and then get embraced by their corrupt buddies…and get to stand next to Chuck Smith himself…mugging for the cameras.

    Where is the Spirit in that?

    Why is this tolerated?

    Is this what it’s really all about people?

    God, I love you…it’s some of the jerks you created I don’t like so much. Crush them, like you crushed me….make it hurt real bad…until they give in true repentance.

  135. well, let’s take a breath for a moment.

    WTC,
    If you are not absolutely 100% certain of what you said in #132, you need to retract it. If this is true, and he has repented, whoa to you for bringing up.

    I still have some questions for you.
    cntorian@yahoo.com

  136. (Sarcasm alert): Centy…don’t sweat it…I’m sure there’s an explanation from Raul and his “people”…he was just witnessing to her…the Scripture speaks about the laying on of hands…and then there’s tongues…you know that.

    Or, they’ll just say she’s a liar and trash her reputation and say because she’s a sinner she can’t be telling the truth about one of “God’s anointed”…

    I can write you the script right now if you’d like.

  137. You good pastors really need to get off the freakin’ fence, get organized, and confront some of this stuff at a high level.

    You have an obligation, IMO.

    1 Timothy 5:20-21

  138. I think this thread is getting out of hand.

  139. I agree, Xenia. I was about to say let’s catch our breath, but thought I’d wait a minute.

    I think Centy’s warning is fair. I know that there is some joking going on, with a bite of truth and hurt and anger. We lose our integrity and credibility when we begin sounding like we are joking in a locker room.

    Believe…your call has been heard, and it’s fair to restate it, but I think we need to pause now.

  140. Sounds good Sarah and X…thanks…love you both.

  141. I’ve been busy all day…what Sarah and Centy said is the rule.

  142. Someone clarify the Moriel statement for me… do they claim the whole conference is cancelled?

    Because I say we call on those who formed that conference to CANCEL Albuquerque for the hellish ungodly inquisition….

  143. Dread,

    Guess what I’m working on this very minute…just that.

  144. Father raise up a company of men who know Christ in such a way that they will do good as Christ did by the power of the Holy Spirit; who will regard sloth as sloth and rationalizations as the dung that seeks to cover and justify sloth.

    Give such men favor as leaders. Let them find one another and strengthen one another in fellowship born out of the strength and vision of engaging and responding to the Savior in the midst of His people;whom you have revealed to us in your Word in the Revelation of Jesus Christ

    Amen.

  145. Believe. I am reminded again to commend to you the book, Bold Love by Dan Allender.

    As Judge, Jesus chooses not to reveal to me what He has in store; as a Shepherd He continually settles me, feeds me, restores me and leads me in paths of righteousness for the glory of His Name even in the midst of an evangelical cult of leadership gone mad and sad.

    cheers my brother,

  146. There can be no company of David’s coming upon the landscape of leadership without first being driven to the caves and the end of themselves by the Saul’s of their day.

  147. “…I mean, I do kind of feel like a sucker.

    All these years I’ve heard these guys preach confession and repentance of sin.”

    That can be a very painful experience. I hope you are blessed with much peace and healing.

  148. Victorious, “Father raise up a company of men who know Christ in such a way that they will do good as Christ did by the power of the Holy Spirit; who will regard sloth as sloth and rationalizations as the dung that seeks to cover and justify sloth.

    Give such men favor as leaders. Let them find one another and strengthen one another in fellowship born out of the strength and vision of engaging and responding to the Savior in the midst of His people;whom you have revealed to us in your Word in the Revelation of Jesus Christ

    Amen”

    worth repeating as i’m praying with you and against the evil one, the Destroyer of mens souls

  149. Centy,
    thanks for your rebuke. I retrack all my comments from today.
    All meant to add comments to Believe’s hysterical character dialogue.
    It wasn’t appropriate and I apologize.

  150. (Mat 18:21) Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?

    (Mat 18:22) Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.

    (Mat 18:23) Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.

    (Mat 18:24) And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents.

    (Mat 18:25) But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made.

    (Mat 18:26) The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.

    (Mat 18:27) Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.

    (Mat 18:28) But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest.

    (Mat 18:29) And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.

    (Mat 18:30) And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt.

    (Mat 18:31) So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done.

    (Mat 18:32) Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:

    (Mat 18:33) Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?

    (Mat 18:34) And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.

    (Mat 18:35) So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

  151. Ummmm is there some context to that whole bunches of passages or is it just random?

  152. thanks WTC. now send me an e-mail!!! pls.

  153. Baahahahahahahaahhwwwaaaa…

    I’m sorry Centy but your begging for email is just plain funny :mrgreen:

  154. london,
    like I care what you think 8)

  155. Centy,
    I will not be emailing you. Sorry. Please don’t be offended. WTC represents way too close and that’s all I have been.
    Your rebuke last night reminded me of a position I reached through prayer and I will return to that position.
    Like Believe, it’s been way too much and I oftentimes don’t know what to do about all the junk that has ended up on mind.
    So, thanks for your rebuke and I gladly step forward with all of this behind me.
    If God wishes to clean house, praise Him. If He so chooses to wait, Praise Him.
    There are too many overwhelming facts of sin in this So Cal scene and I’ll leave them be. Chaio!

  156. SPQR…good reminders about forgiveness. I have been forgiven much…after confession and repentance. I also forgive much.

    A couple of questions for you to better define your general reason for posting all those verses:

    You are certainly not advocating a spouse “forgiving” a cheating husband 70 times 7…meaning the husband can keep on committing adultery and the spouse should just “forgive” him time and time again…keep silent about it…enable it to continue by lying about it and covering it over….correct?

    You are certainly not advocating that a person being abused should keep “forgiving” the perpetrator of the abuse 70 times 7…allowing the abuse to continue…lying about it…covering it over…physical, emotional and spiritual…without the perp “repenting” by stopping the abusive behavior…correct?

    I understand the principle of “forgiveness” in Scripture…in fact, I expect to be forgiven for some of my rant yesterday…I confess and repent of falling into unrighteous anger. Please forgive me.

    The Bible also speaks many times of Justice, Truth, Pastoral Character Standards, Consequences for Sin and Unrepentance, etc. I’ll hold back the very long list of Scriptures.

  157. WTC…sorry for stumbling you yesterday. I know you have been through a lot.

  158. SPQR said, “The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.”

    You can’t skip the falling down (confessing and repenting) part.

    If you are lying about the sin and covering it over…you have not acknowledged it as sin and have not “fallen down”…you are standing in denial of the sin…so what is to be forgiven?

  159. thanks WTC. I actually wanted to hear about your transition and nothing more. I know too much as it is, I don’t need or want you to tell me any more.

  160. Believe & Centy,
    thanks guys. It’s a brand new day and God’s mercies are new! Praise Him.
    Believe, you didn’t stumble me at all.
    I just think I have a bit of Joab in me and I want to pick up a sword and go to work. Perhaps the Blog is mightier than the sword around these parts. : )
    Centy, I’ll email you and we can start a dialogue. You know my weak areas so please don’t invite me down a road where I may bring injury to myself and/or those around me. Okay? Thank you.

  161. WTC

    I would also like to dialogue. I’ve been down the road too, so I promise I won’t take you there again.

    rasjr826@yahoo.com

  162. Believe,

    “Skip the falling down”

    Is that his new title? 🙂

  163. Buster…LOL!!!! 🙂

  164. “I agree with all you said…a line has been crossed here.”

    Just like it has been crossed at least a dozen times amongst your venting fanbase here.

    But of course, you only see it when it suits you.

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