Sep 272014
 

A lawsuit has been filed in Orange County alleging elder abuse and neglect in the death of Chuck Smith.

The “nephew’ in this report would be Bradley Smith, Jeff Smiths son.

Chuck Smith Jr.  was present when his father died and his account of his fathers death differs more than a little from what is presented in this lawsuit.

Rumors of this suit have been flying since Smith’s death…neither Manderson-Smith nor her brother Jeff attended the funeral for their father in protest over how things were handled when Chuck Smith died and afterwards.

Intense conflict over who would pastor Costa Mesa and control the Calvary Chapel empire was happening up to very close to Smith’s death.

We’ll speak more to this later…the only surprise here is how long it took to file this.

SmithTrust.Complaint

We now have a response from Chuck Smith Jr.

“A year ago today I invited my brother and sisters into my home to meet with a mediator. My concern was that we agree to set aside our differences and commit ourselves to Dad’s comfort and well-being in light of his declining health. After four hours of airing our feelings and grievances, everyone was on board. Sadly, we did not realize how short a time we would have to hold it together before Dad would leave us for heaven’s brighter shore.

The following evening I spent the night with Dad in the hospital and was there the next morning when his caregiver arrived and one by one his doctors came to tell him they had exhausted all their resources and were going to send him home to begin hospice care.

For the record, I want it to be known that I do not support the lawsuit my sister Janette and brother Jeff have filed against Calvary Chapel of Costa Mesa. In my opinion it is groundless, deplorable, dishonoring to our father (and to his work, not to mention the people to whom he dedicated his life). It is another sad stain on the representation of Christianity. The only motivation I can see for the suit is malice and greed. Any pretense to honor my father’s name or provide adequate care and support for my mother is nonsense.

I do not know the woman who was interviewed by ABC outside of Calvary Chapel, but almost every word she spoke was false. She was not present when my father passed, I was. She did not speak with the paramedics that night, I did–and also to the police officer who took the report. I can guess where she got her information and I do not blame her, because I am well aware of what convincing stories her sources can tell.

There were two registered nurses in my parents’ home the night of my dad’s death. Once everyone who was there has been interviewed it will be evident how ludicrous is the claim that his caregiver or anyone else put off calling for emergency help that might have saved his life. Dad had been sent home to die. One doctor told him (in my presence) that the cancer was too out of control and spreading too rapidly for them to do anything else for him.

Also, contrary to one specific allegation, as incredible as it seemed to me (and I queried him several times in the hospital), Dad was not in pain or distress in the days and hours prior to his death. Several family members were in his home that day who can corroborate this fact. As for his passing, I posted last year how peacefully sublime was his transition from here to heaven.

After Dad died, his caregiver called to notify the hospice nurse who was to come in later that morning. The hospice nurse instructed her to inform the police so that the coroner could confirm the time of death. It was the hospice nurse who advised us NOT TO CALL 911. She said that paramedics rushing as if responding to an emergency could be very disturbing for my mom. The caregiver explained this to the rest of us and one person present volunteered to make the call. For some reason, he chose to dial 911 (later that day, he attempted to raise my dad from the dead). After the paramedics hurried in with all their gear, they were not asking us why they weren’t called sooner, but why they were called at all. It is not their job to tend to the “deceased.”

No one on this planet loved my father more or had greater respect for him and his ministry than his caregiver–who was at all times in Dad’s employ and never my brother-in-law’s. Her years of loyal service while living in my parent’s home is evident in her presence with him in every doctor’s appointment and the three-inch-thick volume of notes and medical reports that she maintained regarding both Mom and Dad. What is troubling to me is the way she was summarily dismissed. She also regularly medicated and dressed sores on my dad’s feet and legs that were not healing properly and spoke up for him in doctor’s visits or with nurses in the hospital when he failed to mention certain symptoms or health issues.

I doubt the lawsuit will make it to a courtroom. Once the review of financial reports and bank statements has begun and depositions are taken, I suspect that the suit will quickly disintegrate. My heart goes out to anyone who out of love for my dad donates money to support what is in my eyes a scam that is being perpetrated mostly by my brother and surviving uncle.

Some years ago I chose to live at a distance from Calvary Chapel for various personal reasons. Unfortunately, it is impossible to create the same distance from the antics of family members. I do not intend to sound off again on this ugly drama or provide running commentary. In time, the facts will speak for themselves. I suppose I’m old school in thinking that family matters are to be resolved within the family and its dirty laundry is supposed to be left in the hamper or laundry room until washed and made presentable. I wish that none of the squabbles had been taken public, because now that there’s a breach in the damn I fear a flood of ugliness will follow. After all, who knows our flaws and failures better than family?

I do hope that anyone who has made it to the end of this post will take heart. The man who had been “Papa Chuck” to thousands of young people, consistently taught through the Bible year after year, led many people to the Christian faith, and sustained them in the love of God, was like everyone of us “all too human.” His hope is the same hope we all share; namely, that when all is said and done God’s grace will have the last word.”

  141 Responses to “Chuck Smith Daughter Alleges Elder Abuse In Death of Calvary Founder: Updated”

  1. It seems to me in a case like this that the “board” is right – it all belongs to the church and nothing belongs to the Smith family.

    The fact that Chuck Smith wanted things set up to his legacy is the story of Calvary Chapel.

    If we are talking deferred compensation owed to Chuck that should flow through Kay, the board should honor that. The daughter in the video??? a shill for the family – why is she owed anything from a church? She should go out and get a job.

  2. Incredibly sad. I didn’t realize family members stayed away from the funeral. That is an extreme step/statement to take. I’m saddened the family couldn’t have come together and worked this out in a God honoring way. I’ll wait to see how it plays out.

  3. I agree E. God can be honored in this. If I were Brian B, I would find another spokesperson other than Roger Wing. Roger can be a loose cannon.

  4. covered,

    I about fell out of my chair when I read that Wing was the spokesman…
    There won’t be a happy ending here…this will get really filthy.

  5. The gift that keeps on giving… CC politics

  6. What a shame.

    Looks like sister vs sister.

    None of these people, pastors included, should ever take communion again until they have reconciled.

    [Traditional reading of Matthew 5:24]

    And if the Scriptures aren’t effective, I suggest a close reading of Yertle the Turtle.

  7. Guessing CC Abuse will find this accusation more than interesting. I suspect we will be reading about living and dying by the sword.

  8. ChuckJr was the most real & genuine speaker at his dad’s service immediately after the passing. That Sunday was surreal until ChuckJr shared from his heart

  9. Aren’t Janette and Chuck Jr. brother and sister? Who is the nephew?

  10. Wow. Incredibly sad. Family soup. “Where’s there’s a will, there’s…..family”. This is a shameful disobedience to the scriptures ‘brother/sister against brother/sister going to court in view of the public’….. so sad for the Gospel at large.

  11. Here is the link to the law suit that was filed against Brian Brodersen and CCCM Board of Directors

    http://www.chuckloveskay.com/SmithTrust.Complaint.pdf

  12. Xenia,

    Thank you for the correction…I’ve edited to make the change.

  13. But from the interview:

    “Nobody had called 911 until my nephew finally stepped in and did it. The nurse wouldn’t do it and told him not to call 911,” said Manderson.

    So this is confusing. Is she talking about her brother Chuck Jr. or was someone else there as well?

  14. Ok, I read the complaint and it was a grandson, that is, a nephew, who called 911.

    May everyone who needs to repent, repent.

    And may dear Kay’s last days be lived in peace and comfort, surrounded by relatives who have found reconciliation with each other and with God.

    The love of money is the root of all kinds of evil.

  15. Wow, this just goes to show the fraud of the whole CCCM project past and present.

    If anyone ever thought that TWFT was set up for any ‘religious’ purpose to spread the word of Jesus, take note that the real reason is laid out in the complaint;
    “…to continue the legacy of Pastor Chuck and Kay.”

    Complete idolatry – they might as well have constructed a golden calf to themselves.

    As I am sure with at least all 1st generation CC pastors – MINE.

  16. I just read the lawsuit.
    There is so much there that unless you have inside information you won’t see…stuff that I never thought would see the light of day.
    If this actually goes to trial and that stuff is revealed…I don’t even have words to describe what could follow.

  17. Indeed Michael. It’s about time these truths come out! Ephesians 6:10-18.

  18. cindybeebe2014c ,

    Just to be clear…I’m not saying that I support any or all of the claims in the lawsuit.
    I am saying that some of the discovery will lead to places I would guess neither side wants to go.
    Those loan records could have some real shocks in them…

  19. Michael, I know nothing of the daughter filing the suit. Is this a case of sour grapes or is there some validity to her claims? I understand that people have a love/hate relationship with Brian but her claims regarding Brian’s poor judgment with medical care seems a bit out of character. Besides that, I don’t believe for a moment that Cheryl would stand by and let her dad suffer.

  20. covered,

    I heard these basic claims months ago.
    I don’t have any answers that I would offer with certainty.
    My first instinct was to ask some medical professionals about protocol in these matters and without knowing all that happened, here’s what I came up with then.
    It is probable that Chuck Smith was a “DNR”… do not resuscitate.
    That means in the event of a situation where the individual dies, efforts are not to be made to revive him.
    Terminal cancer patients usually have this on their charts at the stage Smith was at.
    If this was the case, then the nurse was correct in her actions.
    If he was not DNR, that’s a whole different can of worms and the nurse could be not only civilly liable, but potentially criminally as well.
    These are facts that will have to be ascertained through discovery.

  21. You gotta love the irony – for all CC’s anti Catholic ruminations… even the Pope leaves it all behind to the Church. It sounds like Chuck set himself up to not let go.

    Remember all the times he used to preach “you never see a hearse pulling a UHaul trailer”? I think perhaps he was trying to be the first.

  22. MLD,

    i would be very cautious in making any assumptions or assertions at this juncture.
    There is so much more here than any of us know…even those of us who think we know more than most.

  23. Few ministries make it “all the way through” unscathed. Sometimes I wonder, with end results such as this, what’s the point? What’s the difference between a big church and a Fortune 500 Company? Coy, Driscoll, SGM, this fiasco in the Emergent Village, and now this…. These were all people and ministries I at least semi-respected. There are none left now, as far as I’m concerned, with the exception of Greg Laurie (knock on wood).

  24. I really like Joel Osteen but am a loser for saying that. McArthur is not immoral technically but is a first class A hole. I salute Billy Graham yet Franklin is a shill and a huckster. I know “celebrity” pastors that folks here in Orange County believe to walk on water and as they effuse praise my mind is laughing and also crying. They’ve no idea. Then I look in the mirror….O God! What in the world are we doing? I say this with no real relationship to mainline denoms nor more ancient forms of Christianity such as the RCC or EO, so I make note of that.

  25. Michael,
    No assumptions being made. I think it is clear that Chuck was going to leave behind some chunks of the ministry to the family.

    When my pastor goes, nothing is being dished out to his kids.

  26. MLD,

    I’m not sure that anything is very clear at this point…I’ll wait for more information.

  27. Neo,

    It all gets to be a bit much to parse, doesn’t it?

  28. Financial transparency occurring in the hardest way possible. Karma aka reaping the whirlwind…..

  29. It can take the wind out of the sails.

  30. In hindsight, if CS had been half as committed to the literal christian message as Mr. Graham, he would have sent those rebellious, hippy kids back to their parents (if safe) and churches rather than using them to build his own kingdom. Instead all churches except his were castigated as being lukewarm, old wine skins, or even the whore of Babylon. At least Graham worked with the existing churches in the communities he evangelized.

    So sad to see to same dynamics playing out in the Smith family and business as in other rich business dynasties. Heart breaking really. Jan was my oldest daughter’s kindergarten teacher 40 years ago. How the love of money, power combined with long standing sibling rivalry can destroy 🙁

  31. The line between ‘ministry’ and personal achievement is very thin. Pastors, their wives and families LIVE for a church 24/7 for decades, completely losing any sense of identity apart from the church, the ‘ministry’, the celebrity leader’s public profile. It’s complex, no matter how things are set up and a scrambled mess when the leader either fails or dies.

    In many ways, churches are a business like a pizza place. If a founding pastor was a business owner, like any other business, there would be no issue in the public eye like this suit. You work you arse off and you get paid for your hours, your family inherits the business. However, in “ministry” there is so much questioning and criticizing of a man’s accomplishments and business assets. It’s a tangled mess to say the least.
    This public turmoil with the Smiths is just another, very visible, example of how ‘ministry’ as we know it is destructive on so many levels. Church service devours the very lives of those who serve and largely skews their ability to function in the real world.

    The fruit of losing your identity to a church is having the sheep cannibals judge you as you try to figure out who the hell you are apart from ‘church”.

    It is very very sad, that Jan Smith feels like so much went wrong with her dad’s death. I’m sure she feels terrible that she was not present at his actual passing, and seems to blame that on others. Church was larger than life to many, obviously, including his daughters.

    Fame, visibility, success, popularity, assets and the Name of God, all add an intangible and painful dimension to the loss that is now being fought in the public forum. Very very sad.

  32. I just spent an hour reading the entire lawsuit, and I literally want to throw up. This is sad beyond belief.

  33. Major update breaking…

  34. Thanks for the heads up Captain. I had a gut feeling I shouldn’t go there. Not helpful for the recovery of some sense of sanity I’ve had to work hard for, I imagine 🙁

  35. Please read Chuck Smith Junior’s gracious response of truth to the false accusations posted yesterday:
    A year ago today I invited my brother and sisters into my home to meet with a mediator. My concern was that we agree to set aside our differences and commit ourselves to Dad’s comfort and well-being in light of his declining health. After four hours of airing our feelings and grievances, everyone was on board. Sadly, we did not realize how short a time we would have to hold it together before Dad would leave us for heaven’s brighter shore.
    The following evening I spent the night with Dad in the hospital and was there the next morning when his caregiver arrived and one by one his doctors came to tell him they had exhausted all their resources and were going to send him home to begin hospice care.
    For the record, I want it to be known that I do not support the lawsuit my sister Janette and brother Jeff have filed against Calvary Chapel of Costa Mesa. In my opinion it is groundless, deplorable, dishonoring to our father (and to his work, not to mention the people to whom he dedicated his life). It is another sad stain on the representation of Christianity. The only motivation I can see for the suit is malice and greed. Any pretense to honor my father’s name or provide adequate care and support for my mother is nonsense.
    I do not know the woman who was interviewed by ABC outside of Calvary Chapel, but almost every word she spoke was false. She was not present when my father passed, I was. She did not speak with the paramedics that night, I did–and also to the police officer who took the report. I can guess where she got her information and I do not blame her, because I am well aware of what convincing stories her sources can tell.
    There were two registered nurses in my parents’ home the night of my dad’s death. Once everyone who was there has been interviewed it will be evident how ludicrous is the claim that his caregiver or anyone else put off calling for emergency help that might have saved his life. Dad had been sent home to die. One doctor told him (in my presence) that the cancer was too out of control and spreading too rapidly for them to do anything else for him.
    Also, contrary to one specific allegation, as incredible as it seemed to me (and I queried him several times in the hospital), Dad was not in pain or distress in the days and hours prior to his death. Several family members were in his home that day who can corroborate this fact. As for his passing, I posted last year how peacefully sublime was his transition from here to heaven.
    After Dad died, his caregiver called to notify the hospice nurse who was to come in later that morning. The hospice nurse instructed her to inform the police so that the coroner could confirm the time of death. It was the hospice nurse who advised us NOT TO CALL 911. She said that paramedics rushing as if responding to an emergency could be very disturbing for my mom. The caregiver explained this to the rest of us and one person present volunteered to make the call. For some reason, he chose to dial 911 (later that day, he attempted to raise my dad from the dead). After the paramedics hurried in with all their gear, they were not asking us why they weren’t called sooner, but why they were called at all. It is not their job to tend to the “deceased.”
    No one on this planet loved my father more or had greater respect for him and his ministry than his caregiver–who was at all times in Dad’s employ and never my brother-in-law’s. Her years of loyal service while living in my parent’s home is evident in her presence with him in every doctor’s appointment and the three-inch-thick volume of notes and medical reports that she maintained regarding both Mom and Dad. What is troubling to me is the way she was summarily dismissed. She also regularly medicated and dressed sores on my dad’s feet and legs that were not healing properly and spoke up for him in doctor’s visits or with nurses in the hospital when he failed to mention certain symptoms or health issues.
    I doubt the lawsuit will make it to a courtroom. Once the review of financial reports and bank statements has begun and depositions are taken, I suspect that the suit will quickly disintegrate. My heart goes out to anyone who out of love for my dad donates money to support what is in my eyes a scam that is being perpetrated mostly by my brother and surviving uncle.
    Some years ago I chose to live at a distance from Calvary Chapel for various personal reasons. Unfortunately, it is impossible to create the same distance from the antics of family members. I do not intend to sound off again on this ugly drama or provide running commentary. In time, the facts will speak for themselves. I suppose I’m old school in thinking that family matters are to be resolved within the family and its dirty laundry is supposed to be left in the hamper or laundry room until washed and made presentable. I wish that none of the squabbles had been taken public, because now that there’s a breach in the damn I fear a flood of ugliness will follow. After all, who knows our flaws and failures better than family?
    I do hope that anyone who has made it to the end of this post will take heart. The man who had been “Papa Chuck” to thousands of young people, consistently taught through the Bible year after year, led many people to the Christian faith, and sustained them in the love of God, was like everyone of us “all too human.” His hope is the same hope we all share; namely, that when all is said and done God’s grace will have the last word.

  36. Anne scooped me. 🙂
    It’s in the body of the article now.

  37. Michael, just can’t break my CC connections even when I try 😉 I should have realized that was the breaking news you might have been referring to above. As always, CS jr is the embodiment of grace.

  38. Anne,

    I’m glad you are here.
    In reality this story is the last thing I need right now, so solid contributions are a good thing.
    That is the strongest statement I’ve ever seen from Chuck Jr. about anything…

  39. Trying to raise Chuck from the Dead??! I am floored that this is taking place and have to wonder why in the world this has now become public.

    How sad to read Chuck Jr’s. words. Maybe it’s best that the ugly truth comes out for all to see…..

  40. If someone gets hauled away in ambulance that is against hospice rules at least for Medicare. Mom got hauled away briefly for seizures, but got sent home right away with some pills. We had a contract ready to sign quitting hospice, but didnt have to use it. You do NOT call an ambulance or go to the hospital. That’s not hospice if you do.

  41. George,

    Thank you…I believe you have correctly spoken on that issue.

  42. Michael, I too had the thought “this is the last thing I need right now”. Oh, well, gotta roll with the punches. As the saying goes, when the waves come it is time to learn how to surf. Holding you & Trey close to my heart.

  43. Anne,

    Bless you, my friend…thank you.

  44. Erunner,

    It was inevitable…this has been a behind the scenes issue for years.

  45. Yes, George is exactly correct, as I learned both when interning with an hospice organization and in caring for 3 family members using hospice in their final days.

  46. I bet that at the end of all the mess, Jeff Smith will probably wind up in jail.

  47. I’m no lawyer
    But in skimming the complaint

    This is about 10million dollars,
    how to define the intellectual property of a pastor who preaches his message in a church (and who profits from that legacy),
    and one messed up family.

    Am I missing anything?

  48. This is very sad for the Smith family primarily, but also for the family of God.

    Chuck Jr. makes his point about his fathers last hours and subsequent happenings.

    He does not address the issues of whether or not the CM board took actions to wrestle control of TWFT and other items.

    Who is caring for Kay?

  49. JAS,

    You’re close…it’s ten million plus punitive damages.

  50. papiaslogia,

    I believe Janette is Kay’s caregiver.

  51. Well….. if all that money goes to Kay and she dies, who will inherit it all? It’s been my observation that the adult child who has been closest to the elderly person at the time of their death is the one who gets all the money.

  52. In my experience, the children doing the eldercare in a family divide into “caretaker” and “criticizers”.

    Not sure how that applies here. But I side with whoever was doing the caretaking.

  53. As a CC Pastor, I have nothing but tears and sadness at this news. The Lord is greater than all of these things, and I thank God that He changes not. My eyes are on Him at this time for healing and discernment. My most earnest prayer is that Satan (who is ultimately behind all of this) will be defeated through the name of Jesus Christ.

  54. papiaslogia: any attempt for the litigants to portray Chuck Smith as someone too ill or frail to withstand manipulation will be faced with tons of evidence & testimony to the contrary. He may have been short-sighted in establishing succession prior to his death, but a feeble old man subject to undue influence would be difficult if not impossible to prove. It is my understanding Kay is being very well cared for and thankfully/hopefully blissfully unaware of all this mess. She above all others in this fiasco deserves every tender mercy possible, IMO.

  55. I don’t know all the ins and outs of who is doing what at this point.
    I’m not sure I want to…
    Chuck Jr. spoke well when he wrote of the dam breaking on unpleasant things…and I’m not sure I want to report on the flood.

  56. Exactly right PP vet

  57. Anne – I concur with your analysis on #55. Ensuring that Kay is being cared for is primary.

    Frankly, I don’t care to know how the empire is divided, either among the family. Chuck was not afraid of the appearance of nepotism.

  58. Yep. I hear you Michael. I’m putting myself on timeout and going to try to focus my heart and thoughts on other things.

  59. paps,
    “Frankly, I don’t care to know how the empire is divided, either among the family. ”

    The whole point is that there should not be an empire. This is what points to Pastor Chuck’s guilt. The money should have been distributed over the past 40 yrs to kingdom work … not kingdom building.

    His kids are spoiled and feel entitled. Chuck made them that way.

  60. Anyone know how the church in Costa Mesa is doing?
    The rumors about what is happening there doesn’t sound good.

  61. MLD,

    I think between this mess and the Mars Hill mess we might see a a change in American evangelicalism.
    At the very least people will be talking and thinking through the methods of the last 40 years.

  62. MLD – No argument from me – there shouldn’t be an empire – but there it is.

    These shenanigans have been going on with the empire for years, but there’s putting the genie back in the lamp.

    How do you spot an empire builder before they start, or how do you stop an empire from being built?

  63. I’m thankful Chuck Jr spoke up and that Kay is well cared for. The rest is a stench.

  64. A welcomed changed Michael. It’s amazing that if there is real repentance and humility by church leaders how good things can actually happen in the church. Go figure.

  65. Just a Sheep,
    What rumors? I’ve only heard of good things.

  66. Anne brings up a good point about Kay. I pray she knows nothing of this and never will in this lifetime.

  67. “No one on this planet loved my father more or had greater respect for him and his ministry than his caregiver– . . .”

    ” The man who had been “Papa Chuck” to thousands of young people, consistently taught through the Bible year after year, led many people to the Christian faith, and sustained them in the love of God, . . .”

    Having attended CC’s for over 34 years, and more at CC Costa Mesa and Cypress than anywhere else, I have to say that these two statement made by Chuck Jr. are a bit odd, but lends additional thought to just how he sees his father and the Christian faith.

    In all the time I have been a Christian, I have never thought of any Pastor having the ability to sustained me in i my faith, not by a long shot, I would add. What more, why on earth after all that his father has supposedly done is it that this one caretaker is said to be the person who have loved his father more than any other on this planet or had greater ministry. Who was this caretaker? And what relationship, did they really have with Chuck?

    Being so, I find it difficult to give much credibility to what Chuck Jr. had to shared, except to say that he believes what he does and is attempting to protect “this legacy” and perhaps, the honor of his father, even at the cost of tossing other family members under the bus. I think this lawsuit is a good thing, even though as he puts it, things will become known that he believes should be washed privately so that the less acceptable things can be kept hidden in order that a more favorable what can be accomplished? For the sake of whom? Perhaps, it is time that these things come out so that all will know the truth and then pick up their marbles to create a much better legacy that goes far beyond Chuck Smith.

    Michael, I agree with you—-it will not be pleasant to report on that which everyone may have been duped into believing what was, but was not—-never is, my friend.

    As Chuck Smith’s attorney once put out there, when people are not behaving as Christians, it is perfectly within reason to be able to take another to court. (my words).

    Since CS, failed to set up a system of church discipline and much more failed to include the non-members within it rankings, why wouldn’t it be reasonable to expect it to fall into the hands of the court system. What is so ironic, I think is, God, and yes, I believe it is of the Lord, that its is so, that he will use the family members and man’s court to accomplish what it is that has so far been swept under the rug whereas, people are tripping and falling, but little has or is being done to stop that which should have been addressed a long time ago, on many levels which brought harm to the church and God’s people. Legacy, indeed, more like idolatry is what I have known and seen and heard, and witnessed.

  68. Linda;

    You are so off the the mark it barely is worth responding…but I will. Chuck Jr. could care less about the “Smith legacy” or the “Chuck Smith legacy.” He avoided his father and that “limelight” for years. Period. I personally witnessed this fact.

    As for the “caretakers” I knew one and known the other as well as I know her husband as he worked for me for five faithful years. They are blameless and the allegations are spurious and slanderous in that regard; hence the attorney not even naming them as “named defendants” for fear of legal retribution.

    As to your inference about Chuck’s attorney, what is you source for this comment? Nothing I recall saying while in that capacity.

    Your judgment is flawed here like most, so why don;t you take a more reasoned approach and reserve it until more information comes out in discovery please.

  69. Thank you, Mr. Sheckstein! You were much more gracious than I might have been.

  70. “Turn your eyes upon Jesus.
    Look full in His wonderful face,
    And the things of earth, will grow strangely dim,
    In the light of His glory and grace.”

  71. When John-John Kennedy died in his plane crash, a comment was made that people were glad Jackie, his mom, was already deceased so she didn’t have to bear the agony of his traumatic death…..I feel the same for Chuck Smith.

    There’s no guarantee that a Bible teacher/pastor’s children will follow in his footsteps, but somehow you’d think they’d honor his life in his death.

    The behavior of the children will not take from the fruit born from Chuck’s life. David had some disappointment with his heirs. Samuel as well. I’m thinking Adam was hugely disappointed in one of his boys. Noah had one among three sons that revealed character hidden away until it served his own purposes.

    Who knows how rooted the flesh is in all of this. May God uproot the evil, may people respond to His breaking hand, repent, and then quietly, humbly go on with their lives serving God…for Him not themselves. No need to write a book about it either…

  72. Hey Jeff S, as for Carter, she was counseling various callers who called into her radio program. She stated to the effect of what I shared during her own radio broadcast.

    As for Jeff, sorry but according to what was posted, I would beg to disagree with you. He stated, “Some years ago I chose to live at a distance from Calvary Chapel for various personal reasons.”

    Yet it is clear that he has taken a position and states why. To me that is not remaining, objective or keeping a distance. Base on his perception, he has decide to camp out in the same camp as yourself, it appears.

    As for me, I stand by what I stated and think the lawsuit will be a vehicle for God to use to bring, not only Calvary Chapel towards thinking how it does church, but also will enable this family to get their affairs and relationships in order.

    Were you there when all these events took place which are outlined in the allegations being made in this suit? Or is it all hearsay to you.

  73. As far as I know Janet Carter was CS attorney:

    http://www.blogtalkradio.com/we-are-the-remnant/2011/12/03/dealing-with-devils–a-deeper-look-into-calvary-chapel

    It was my understanding that you handled some legal concerns long before she came along.

    Wow! you certainly did jump ahead of yourself on this one with me this time Jeff S. And in that insulted my intelligence as well as your own. Not interested in trading one insult for another guy–but rather more interested in hearing the truth and so far, as I can see it, it won’t come out until this lawsuit is settled. Well, that is if it is done in truth and integrity which we know only too well, that this does not always happened, even among those who claims to be Christians.

    Nevertheless, I will pray that it does regardless of the legal maneuvering and schisms that can take place when thing are on the table.

  74. you know I said this before and I still consider it one of my family’s more vile traits no matter what ever happened and a great deal did in my family we would always open a room and we would never sue each other. That is probably one of the reasons I must not be a true Christian.

  75. No interest or time to read the whole case tonight but they obviously see the problem with the “work product” issue. That is quite a claim there on page 8, paragraph 23…(that his messages were all basically prepared before he ever arrived at CCCM – “years prior”)

    especially given the well publicized testimony that it was years into Chuck’s ministry before he ever “discovered” the idea of verse by verse teaching through the Bible.

    (I won’t comment on the claim that in 1978, when formed, the underlying intent of TWFT was to keep things going after Chuck’s death – maybe they meant to type “rapture”)

    Too bad it is next to impossible to punish based on the perjury laws of such a signed, sworn claim. But as to the claim about message prep there is no way anyone “believes it to be true”

  76. Steve, is it possible that they are saying that CS messages were prepared from the original work products done long before he gave the messages.

  77. Linda,

    They’re trying to establish that he composed these messages before he went to work for Costa Mesa in order to make the messages his intellectual property alone.
    It is one of the most preposterous claims I’ve ever seen.

  78. Perhaps, a better way of saying this is: derived from the original work product.

    Also, was wondering if “verse by verse” was something that he coined or is it something that originated from the Bible. I mean, how can someone take a phrase out of the Bible and then claim it as his own to market or to lay hold of an original idea as if they had discover that which was already there.

    Please, help me with this, as I had always wonder about others crediting CS or CC as using this phrase as if it was something new and original.

    Perhaps, the application of this is new–certainly not its original form or application.

  79. Linda,

    Verse by verse exposition goes back to at least the Reformation…though at times CC acts like it invented it.

  80. Another question:

    How is it that CS was hired to be the Senior Pastor by the very board which he elected. I though he, along with Lonnie Frisbee founded Calvary Chapel. How can one be hired when they select the men to be on their board? This doesn’t make sense to me at all. I thought, CS made it clear, he would not be anyone hireling and that he would decide who came and who went. Doesn’t sound like an employee to me.

    What am I missing here?

  81. Linda,

    CCCM existed before Chuck pastored it and they called him to be their pastor.
    He instilled the Moses Model of governance after that.
    I’m working from memory and really tired, so I’m open to correction.

  82. Michael,

    LOL I was thinking more along the lines of:

    Isaiah 28:13

    But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

  83. Really, that’s news to me—had always read and been led to believe that Lonnie Frisbee had started it and then met CS. The two of them and some other guy came on the scene. Shortly afterward, Lonnie was ousted and voila CC became incorporated. And as it grew, CS selected, recruited and groomed others to follow in his footsteps. During this time, the Moses model was presented by Chuck to establish the basic constructs that are present to this day.

  84. Lonnie didn’t come along until three years after Chuck was at CCCM…just checked to make sure I wasn’t delirious…

  85. Chuck publicly gave Dr. Halley (of the Halley’s Bible Handbook) the credit for putting into his head the idea of having the people read through the whole Bible and then teaching from the section they were reading that week. It was right about the time he did his first expositional study through an entire book, which was 1 John.

    There is zero justification for such an outlandish claim as made in this lawsuit – I don’t have the slightest insight on any of the inside baseball stuff regarding the family but the history of Chuck’s teaching, how he prepared his messages and so forth is something Chuck spoke often about and something I always paid special attention to back in the day.

    And I am sick of people lying in order to take money unto themselves that they have no right to have. I lived it for 20+ years as an insurance agent and it is disgusting to see its prevalence in the Body of Christ.

  86. One other thing. Somewhere there it mentions that what notes he did prepare while at CCM he did from home and in his private time.

    That standard would apply to just about every preacher. So maybe churches that pay salaries to pastors should enforce office hours where the pastor is forced to put together his message in full before going home. Spiritual study hall.

    Or make it clear that messages the pastor is PAID to prepare and give are not private intellectual property, no matter if some of that preparation is from home.

  87. Steve,

    I think there is enough in Smith’s own messages and writing to refute that claim…I can’t believe it actually is in this lawsuit.
    Well, on second thought… knowing one of the parties behind it…yes, I can.

  88. St. John Chrysostom preached verse by verse in the 4th century.

    Most of his sermons can be read online.

  89. Well if CS brought his own work product and had the intention of keeping the work product – perhaps he really should have been renting the church to deliver his messages.

    When Tony Robbins comes to town, he brings his own work product, sells his own work product and keeps his own work product… but he rents the venue.

    So perhaps in the end, the Smith estate owes CC 40 yrs back rents. I am sure that a 2,000 seat auditorium goes for at least $1,000 – times 4 times a week for 48 yrs = $10 million back due.

  90. Michael,

    Thanks for checking—as I don’t really know, only what I have read and been told by those who were.

    So am I to understand that CS had been hired by a church, called CCCM, but the he met Lonnie and the two of them got together as Lonnie was instrumental in attracting the outcasts of the church, so to speak which in turn caused CCCM to take off like a wildfire in that attendance was on the increase and communes were being set up to accommodate and to spread the good news.

    Okay, here’s another question: WHO was in charge of the church when Chuck was hired on and what happened to the board members or was the board members brought on after Chuck took over?

  91. Michael, the most insulting thing about that claim is that they are saying Chuck phoned it in, his entire teaching ministry at Costa Mesa. That he dusted off old notes, arranged them a little at home, and went into the pulpit.

    It is such a horrendous insult.

    I’ll add a couple other things I recall (maybe if I play my cards right I can testify for the defense 🙂 ) In any event, I hope they jog the memory of anyone on the defense’s side.

    1) Chuck said that no matter how many times he had taught a particular book, he made it a practice to pick up a new commentary that he had never read before and go through it as part of the preparation process while teaching that book the next time.

    2) Chuck said that on Sunday night, after completing the passage that week (let’s say Luke 8) before he would go to bed that Sunday night, he would take a moment to read Luke 9 just to get it planted again in the mind and let it begin to perculate.

    3) Chuck said he rose early Sunday morning to actually put together the message from all his prep during the week…for that morning’s message – feeling it was freshly given from the Lord and he then eager to give it in return to the people. Knowing how early that must have been, I remember thinking at the time I could never do that….

    Until I began to do the exact same thing at Elsinore. Taking the week’s prep and arranging the message for that morning, on that morning.

    In fact, the other two guidelines I have practiced over the years as well.

    Maybe the most obvious flaw in the claim, simply from self-evidency, is that Chuck took longer each time through the BIble, doing more prep and giving longer messages as he went through the BIble the next time.

    Not to mention the in depth midweek studies where he did topical messages on a verse or two, going in order through a key book like John or Ephesians.

    It is such an insulting, baseless claim, that even though most of us would know nothing about the inner meetings and final days, it certainly leads me to the conclusion that anything else claimed (by oath under perjury) is almost certainly horse manure.

  92. Gosh, I thought the scriptures were taught line by line, precepts upon precepts by the Jewish to the Jews, first verbally, then as it was written-particularly to the children so that their children could passed it on down and that none would forget or go astray or that they would know what God’s will and His way would be and what was required of them. I know it was read in synagogue and taught to diligently by the rabbis later on. As Jesus demonstrated whenever he came into the midst of them, or when he attended the Sabbath.

  93. Steve

    “And I am sick of people lying in order to take money unto themselves that they have no right to have. I lived it for 20+ years as an insurance agent and it is disgusting to see its prevalence in the Body of Christ.”

    I think most of us will agree with you on this. Problem is, what is and what is not that belongs to the entire congregation and not just to a Pastor when tithes or donations are given by the congregation to benefit the entire church.

    Do you hold to Kaye having a standing in being able to benefit from the trust that she and CS set up to make sure they would be able to live comfortably in their senior years. If so, then do agree that it’s possible the TWFT and much of CS/Kaye materials were meant to be used to enable them to also gain a profit from these sales, as well, and be included in the estate?

  94. Linda, I’m going to be very clear if I have not been already.

    The lawyers for this thing KNOW about the problem with the intellectual property laws and the question “who owns the pastors sermons” – it is an issue that has been litigated before.

    Thus, they wrote that nonsense about Chuck doing all his real prep before he was an employee at CCCM as an offensive move to attempt to avoid the legal reality they face – truth be damned of course.

    Please do not even remotely insinuate that somehow I don’t care for Kay’s well-being in these last years of her life. I’ve kept my comments very pointed on one aspect – and it had nothing to do with Kay, 911 calls, caregivers, annuities or anything else. My hope is that she is blissfully unaware of all of this rancor.

    My anger is at the claim that Chuck showed up and stuck around Costa Mesa for 50 years without actually doing any sermon prep. It insults me as a pastor, a congregant, and a ministry student connected to his influence. Because it is a lie.

  95. I had to lay down for a bit and I’m going back to bed after this.
    Steve, well said at # 93.

    Linda, my information is that Chuck left Kay very well cared for.
    He did not die a poor man.

  96. In my mind, and I realize it will hit a sore spot with some. Mind you, it is not intended to do so. However, cannot ignore the reality either. That is, if we agree that a trust was set up and that trust was also being funded by profits made from TWFT and other materials authored by Kaye and Chuck, then Chuck was wise in making provision for themselves, particularly when, he knew he would likely not survive Kaye. In this, he was being obedient to the Lord in providing for her as he was able to do. But if this is not true, then what does this say about Chuck in his responsibility towards Kaye. He had a million dollar life insurance that would not pay unless he died. So what, that is easily eaten up in paying bills and handling medical expenses. Kaye had dementia, but not bedridden.

    Also, why is it that we get upset over the children wanting their rightful inheritance? Seems to me, that if they both die, the laws states, unless cut out from the will, all that is left does go to the closest of kin. Now, would be the right time to take this to court, I would think before Kaye passes on and before time passes by that would muddle the issue even more, so that if an estate was set up with what is claimed, then the children would gain what is rightfully theirs by law to have. A law that has been known to God’s people, long before legal system and courts placed in on the books. Just because the children are asking for what they believe is rightfully theirs and that it happens to be a sizable amount does not mean that they are being wicked in pursuing this.

    So, which is it? Did Chuck intend for Kaye to be taken care of by setting up this trust and funding the trust by those work products that he and Kaye did through what the suit claimed or did he falter in this and make little or no provisions for her except to set up an annuity and pay into a life insurance. Did he have intention for the children and grandchildren to benefit from a trust fund, after Kaye passed or did he also fault on this, as well. Hmmm. Not to say we are bound to leave anything to our children, but to acknowledge that we know what we do leave and is not used by the surviving spouse will be passed on to the children unless they, and/or their children are written out of the will, that is.

  97. Steve,

    “Please do not even remotely insinuate that somehow I don’t care for Kay’s well-being in these last years of her life”

    I asked a question Steve. I was not intimating anything. That’s on you, not me In order to be objective, you need to be less sensitive and defensive when answering a question, otherwise your response tend to be a bit weak. IMO

    Given the response you made prior to this question, I wanted you to clarify on what you thought about a pastor’s widow being cared for and in what manner. As you know, not everyone hold to this. Historically speaking, we don’t do well in caring for the widows in our churches, so in this–thought you could lend food for thought instead of the thinking I was intimating anything in particular to you.

  98. “[I received an update that Kay Smith was finally able to get a partial payment from the “annuity” which the source says has helped because attorney’s fees in administering the “Living Trust” have exceeded $50,000…probably due to the intellectual property issues. It is also reported that Kay Smith just recently received the proceeds of a church life insurance policy in the amount of $12,000. However, the source says that any rumor that Chuck Smith left a “fortune” behind is a myth…there is not a lot of money and lawyer fees and accountant fees are significant].”

    http://calvarychapelabuse.com/wordpress/chuck-smith-family-battle-brewing-behind-the-scenes/#comments

  99. Can’t find the video right at the moment.

    But in it Chuck digresses from the theme given to him to speak on and goes into the fact that he ran out of sermons while in Huntington Beach at a church that he pastored.

    He figured that he was going to have to submit a request to the denominational headquarters for another church some where else that had not heard his sermons yet.

    Then he came up with the idea of just going through the Bible scripture by scripture and staying away from the topical studies he had been doing.

    He goes on to say that that worked for him.

    ***

    i know both Chuck Jr. and Jeff Smith.

    Jeff has a heart of gold and Chuck Jr, has always “told it like it is” no matter what the consequences.

    I don’t understand what is taking place exactly but I would caution with King Solomon’s statement that when a person hears the first side of a story they tend to believe that until they get to hear the other side.

    Perhaps we will never get to the bottom of this. But does it really matter?

    Things have a way of working themselves out.

    Chuck Smith was a man. He had to deal with his flesh as do we.

    In all of us there is the constant battle between the flesh and the spirit.

    Think of it like two dogs a black one and a white one battling.

    The one that you feed the most will always have supremacy.

    What I do know about Chuck Smith is that his dogs were both very strong…and he held the black one off to the best of his abilities.

    May Peace and an expected end come to all of this in the name of Jesus Christ.

  100. Ok searched for it and found it.

    Check out what Chuck Smith has to say…
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qmae-pOIb_w

  101. I hope the whole Chuck Smith family thing works out, I could not stand CS and the Calvary chapel movement, never could, but that is on me, many of the churches like Steves Church are quite fine. I am just an angry soul in this area so honesty demands I say that. Even back in the early 80’s I got the urge to puke when encountering some of the rhetoric. The casual dress, the expositional teaching the hippy atmosphere though that was dying out when I was semi involved. I use to ask about church finances even back then, is this money going to where you are saying its going. Some CC were very upfront some not so much, like many other church groups.

    What I believe, CS is not an evil man, he did care about his parishioners and he wanted to see them saved. I dont get that, if we are all children of God or even created in His likeness why would God not save them? But that is another post. CS got overwhelmed as did some in his group. The Moses model is a system on steroid for abuse and should be repudiated with the same passion they repudiate reform theology, which they could actually learn from but I will leave that to Michael as he is a much more worthy representative. CS did suggest Jesus may come back in the late 70’s or early 80’s but that is an industry standard so he was just going with the flow. I do believe Pastor Smith’s system of church governance lead to abuse. One of those abused happens to be a dear friend of mine, that is when it became my business.

    I believe CS was a real believer and tried to be a real pastor, I also think he tried to create a sustainable income for his family and some of them got use to it. My family never had a sustainable revenue stream, and we nearly lost our house a few times, and we lived hand to mouth but my mother always made sure we had gifts for Christmas and our birthdays. Being the stupid little creten I was at six I decided to become a roman candle and get burned a couple of days before Christmas. That was when the nightmares of hell started for me, they have never abated. I cost my family heavy and I have tried to pay it back but if I was not such a stupid little S@@t it would not have happened. My parents never held it against me, I always do, and will to the day I die.

    Of course this does not cover the crystal meth, running around after your sister because she is coming down off some drug and she thinks her hair is on fire or the cops busting down your door and beating the literal crap out of a family member and hauling them off and your say maybe 10. That does not include the searches, on a regular basis, the cops making fun of the death of a friend and your brother telling you and this kid was one of my salvation at high school. Do you know I have personally witnessed one suicide and one attempted suicide in my childhood neighborhood. The one kid started the car in the garage and died in the car. I went home being all of 12 or so and a few minutes later after I got home and told my mom they found out he was dead. My brother told me, you little prick all you want is to get out of going to the funeral and if you do, I won’t continue. I did not and wont. Because I am sure I am trying some type of manipulation. The other guy shoved a broken beer bottle into his arm and he was bleeding all over the place. I understand this should not ever have an effect on you. Ever. It is just business as usual.

    You know even if it means my damnation I will never go back to the institutional church, ever. It is just to painful. This is about as honest as I can be, and I have provided much cannon fodder but I sort of trust you folks. First this is not an appeal for sympathy or help I have been a Christian long enough to know that is not an option, just a point of reference. It is also not an appeal for attention, I dont want your attention, I would like a few discrete dialogs but I dont expect attention.

  102. Steve, thank you for taking the time to point out the absurdity of the claim that Chuck Smith only used sermons that he brought with him to CCCM. I read and thought it was legalise and I was misunderstanding what they meant……surely anyone in their right mind would not make a claim like that. I Now I see it is as ridiculous as I thought.

    So who is paying for the lawyers in this case?

  103. I hope others will see what a fraud all of CC really was and is. I pray the next domino falls on CCVisalia and the Grenier boys, as well as the rest of us, can see God lay low those who have lifted themselves high by standing on the bodies of the faithful believers.

    May He continue to shine His light on all the shadows of CC.

  104. Nonnie,
    I asked the same question. I don’t have any proof, but suggest the list of possible suspects would be the enemies of Broderson who have deep pockets.

  105. To this day, I haven’t really seen any CC pastors speak out against the Moses Model with any clarity. This mess is the fruit of exactly the Moses Model which has been consummated into the “distinctives” which I also haven’t seen any CC pastors speak out against with any clarity. It is what it is and this is exactly what is to be expected with this type of church polity.

  106. Linda,

    It’s not that you hit a sore spot, it’s that some of us who have followed this mess for years have grave doubts about the narrative presented here.
    The “intellectual property” argument around Smith’s sermons is one of the most absurd propositions ever to see cyber ink here.
    The other scenario being inferred is that Chuck Smith left only one financial device for the support of his wife.
    I find that impossible to believe based on prior estimates of Smith’s personal wealth.
    His children profited greatly from him while he was alive and I have no sympathy or interest if they will not profit from his death.
    This is a down and dirty power struggle and it’s being waged in what I see as a down and dirty fashion.
    Finally, Kay Smith’s personal situation and dignity has been preserved very carefully through the years…she has been suffering from dementia for a long time.
    To see her being the center of this action is troubling to say the least.
    Everything I’ve ever known about her says that if she was in control of her faculties this would not be happening.
    Until this is adjudicated and the evidence is seen, I will withhold judgment on the whole thing.

  107. Jeff has a heart of gold, David? Or that Jeff has a heart for gold?

  108. Does anyone know who the blonde spokesperson in the TV report was? I’m assuming part of the legal team, or????

    Chuck Jr. said she was not speaking truth.

  109. Could the nephew be Chuck Fromm?

  110. “The “nephew’ in this report would be Bradley Smith, Jeff Smiths son.”

    (Stated in the above article)

  111. Non nice – The woman in the KABC schtick is the lead attorney for Jeff, Paul and Janette.

    Neo – priceless

  112. Shek, Thank you!

  113. Anne, where did you get the Chuck Smith,Jr. statement? I can’t find it anywhere online except here.

  114. KareFlare: Jr. posted it on Facebook and it is being shared by many, including his sister Cheryl, via that platform.

  115. Much wisdom there davidsurfer51! Glad I read it!!

  116. Anne,
    ” In hindsight, if CS had been half as committed to the literal christian message as Mr. Graham, he would have sent those rebellious, hippy kids back to their parents (if safe) and churches rather than using them to build his own kingdom. Instead all churches except his were castigated as being lukewarm, old wine skins, or even the whore of Babylon. At least Graham worked with the existing churches in the communities he evangelized. ”

    I tend to think that as well, Anne. Attempts to reinvent the wheel can have disastrous consequences and this latest is just one more chapter in this saga.

  117. So Ixtian,

    What church do you pastor?

    Was/is it related CS church?

  118. I ask cause you speak like a pastor.

  119. Neo @109

    When you think that you are right, you could be wrong…
    When you think that you are wrong, you could be right…
    Things are never what they at first appear to be.

    James 4:11

    In the course of my friendship with Jeff, since we were freshmen in high school, I have formed my opinion of him.

    God knows how many times he has helped others who were in need.

    He really has shown a big heart of gold to many in his giving.

    For this reason I have said what I did.

    I believe in Jeff and respect the man. Yes he has stayed out of the pulpit.

    He told me he never wanted to go through what he had seen his dad go through in the ministry.

    I won’t go over the details Jeff gave me as examples but suffice it to say that Chuck had his trials and dealings that most men would have gotten out of the ministry had they gone through.

  120. Brian, Roger and Phil are finally getting the attention they deserve 🙂

  121. Chuck Smith Jr: “I see that there is a great deal of interest in the current Smith family saga. So what can all those who are truly concerned about the controversy and ramifications to the many lives touched by it do that will please God and lead to the best resolve? There is no need to mention prayer (but I just did anyway). Perhaps less obvious but nevertheless important is just this: Don’t take sides. Do not side with me, do not side with any of my siblings. The “body of Christ” is not divided. We do not have to repeat history. The mistakes made by the Christians in Corinth serve as lessons to us. The “I am for Paul” and “I am for Apollos” factions should have been extinguished in the first century.
    The further this dispute is carried, what is true and just will become more apparent. We can watch it unfold (if we have nothing better to do) and let God determine the outcome. In situations like this, no one is totally righteous and no one is totally wicked, regardless of how the picture has been painted for us. And if the whole thing fizzles out before going any further so that the whole truth of it be buried forever, that would be even better.
    It is difficult not to share those “dainty morsels” that “go down into the innermost parts of the body” (Proverbs 26:22), but if everyone would resist passing on information that they do not know to be fact from firsthand experience, it would go a long way in letting the fire go out (Proverbs 26:20).
    Thank you for your love and continued kindness to my dad and his family. “

  122. if everyone would resist passing on information that they do not know to be fact from firsthand experience
    ————————————————-
    So Chuck Jr. doesn’t want his detailed written public response (i.e. ‘side’) shared with anyone else? Or anyone to take that side having had the chance to hear it, and also read the lawsuit?

    When people take a stand against lies and injustice it hardly is equivalent to dividing the body of Christ in the spirit of I am of Apollos…I’m sorry to see Chuck Jr. walk back what otherwise was a very strong and needed response to this ungodly lawsuit.

  123. Steve, this is the type of story where it seems to me there’s the temptation to appear to be in the know as people pretty much share opinions possibly based on negative experiences. The story has been on Eyewitness news here and also in the OC Register.

    Sadly as time moves forward I suspect all sorts of unflattering information both true and false is going to disseminated.

    There are people who will take pleasure from anything that comes out to hurt the image of CS and CC. Others will dismiss anything Chuck Jr. has to say as he’s been branded emergent or worse by some.

    Some will speak of the well being of Kay when they really don’t care about her at all.

    It’s a mess plain and simple and now that the story has broken there will be many with much to say from all sorts of perspectives. People will be left wondering what to believe while others will refuse to believe anything that might topple their idol(s).

    I hope the truth comes out whatever it is and we can move forward.

    Past experience tells me this could get quite ugly and that would be unfortunate for all parties involved and the body of Christ at large.

  124. Steve,
    I think Chuck’s response is a bit unrealistic. You cannot have such a large platform and expect for any type of scandal not to attract numerous on-lookers with their myriad of opinions that they hope to interject into the mix. Calvary Chapel and The Word for Today are a very public entities, and whether it be good or bad, whatever they produced will find the light of day.

  125. Steve, to be clear I responded to what you quoted from Chuck Jr. and not your response. Hope you’re well.

  126. I think the hard thing for many to understand is “PaPa Chuck” is just another human being and not “Moses” at all. I’m sure his family could tell stories of how they were raised, disciplined, bible teachings, his commitment to his ministry and such. All of us have such stories, but the sad thing here seems to be not who get’s the legacy of Chuck but his spoils.

    I think it’s a good story for self examination and to see how each of us live up to the first commandment “with a promise” mentioned in the NT, “honor your father and mother.”

    Yes life is messy.

  127. If anyone has been sued unjustly (and I am not talking about a fender bender where a whiplash suit shows up 6 months later, turned over to the insurance company and they settle for $10,000 and your insurance rates go up)

    I’m talking about a suit that is a personal attack, filled with lies and false accusations, a suit that will cost money, time, and incalculable stress, a suit that if actually successful would cause financial hardship to one’s wife and children (if the defense is not hardship enough)

    At the end of the day, though it is his family, and his testimony will be called for (if it goes to depositions) – at the end of the day Chuck Jr. is not getting sued.

    Therefore, it is unfortunate that, given his strong initial opposition that led to so many people “taking sides” he now cautions against doing so and offers in effect that both sides have some guilt and some righteousness. I have to think that if his skin was in the game as a defendant he would not utter such words. At least I am sure his attorney would advise against it. But he does not need an attorney because he is not being sued.

    And as an aside, a couple points. While I am sure that CCCM has directors and officers liability insurance, that insurance protects the church’s assets, and will defend the directors, but if the directors are PERSONALLY liable for damages beyond their role AS directors of the church, they will not be covered by the church’s insurance.

    And even the directors and officers liability insurance will NOT pay for punitive damages, which the lawsuit seeks, because in California punitive damages are not insurable.

    Like so many things in life, to really appreciate the gravity of this, one has to have gone through something similar themselves.

  128. Everyone knows there were power plays going on over who was going to be in charge of the a$$et$ of CCCM and TWFT, well before Chuck Sr.died, When there are power plays going on, there are going to be sides taken by many. I have no dog in this fight. I could not care less about the money or the power. However I do grieve over a family that is split. I lived next door to Chuck Jr. and his family ( over 30 years ago) when all of our children were tiny, and I saw the love of “Grandpa Chuck” when he would visit his family, I heard the stories of how he loved his wife and ALL of his children and their children. How tragic that now they battle over his legacy and what goes with it. I am praying for them and that the peace, love, and grace of God will prevail in this family and through their lives.

    What I got out of Chuck Jr.’s last message was that he didn’t want people taking sides and pouring on hate against any of his family regardless of who is suing who. To want truth and peace to prevail is not the same as wishing ill against another.

  129. I wonder if all of the CC Pastor’s here who live and die for the brand are going to throw Jr under the bus because of his statement. Grace needs to abound in this situation.

  130. I’m the only CC pastor I think still here (at least publicly) and I sure don’t “live and die for the brand” and I hold no ill will towards Chuck Jr. in any fashion. I compliment his initial statement to the highest – and heard several people at church yesterday doing the same.

    My point was simple. Some involved are also getting sued. Some aren’t.

    I’m done now. The lawsuit disgusts me – The part I feel able to speak about (the message prep claim) I have already addressed.

    I feel no guilt about “taking sides” against this lawsuit and its motive, its goal, and its possible damage it may cause (both direct and collateral).

  131. Those that live and die for the brand are numerous. I wasn’t pointing a finger at any one in particular. As this lawsuit gains traction, you will be able to see who’s for Apollos and who’s for Paul with clarity.

    My point was that we all (even those who dispise the brand), have an opportunity to pray and show grace in this situation and I hope that we all can do that.

    This will get worse before it gets better and it will leave a mark on many good people and many good churches. For this reason, we need to tread lightly. Galatians 6 may be a good place to let the Lord do some much needed work.

    If we spend more time praying about the restoration process instead of the hearsay and sins, maybe God’s grace will heal a broken family. Just for the record, I include myself in the WE because I’m as guilty as anyone who reads this.

  132. The lawsuit itself is of no consequence at all – as I said the other day, the fact that the assets belong to the Smith family to fight over is the issue.

    This is no different than when the Schueller’s were fighting over their kingdom. Crystal Cathedral – CCCM, zero difference.

  133. There were several cc pastors in the last ten years that came to cccm willing and ready to stand in for chuck. They were great men of God. I believe an effort was made to keep this from happening . We now are seeing the outcome.

  134. jeff,
    You mean there were others who wanted to be the one to own the combination to the vault? Such great men of God willing to sacrifice. 😉

  135. covered. Amen to your 135. Well said about what needs to be well done in a crucial season.

  136. Here s all I say having gone to CCCM since the 70s. I was at that meeting when the church was asked to vote on Brian. It truly was deplorable how BBrody. election as head of an organization he has absolutely no business being in charge of (for many reasons) however as the meeting to elect Brain progressed they allowed no dissent, no discussion on the election or how to replace someone as world known as C Smith was that Brian has the audacity to even try and lead this church.
    When a few people had seconded the motion to have dissent and discussion the moderator (who knew it was coming) refused to have an open honest airing about B B ability to even lead. Then this Brut bearded pastor all of 300 LBs come racing down the isles in the most ugliest fashion in the gentleman’s face who all he wanted to do was “voice an opinion” I got sick inside. I ve seen that same pastor pull on a father and his baby in his arm in the back lobby a number of years ago shoving him out the back door insisting he leave the lobby now (before service even began) Everyone knows who this Brut is and shocked Chuck let pastors like that serve there and turn his head the other way when members complained about him.
    That election was such a joke, Calvary is such a turn off now. Hey Brian all over the community over and over the dirty little secret no one wants to talk about is you are boring and put people to sleep (has nothing to do with knowing the bible). those that run the church putting your head in the sand lol I just shake my head.
    Jan thank you for standing up and calling this like it is
    i disagree and believe this will probably get into the court rooms, and believe if Brian so called team refuses to air candid democratic debate on who is to run this mega church then it will be done in the court room, and will follow this with much interest
    Ps Brian is it going to kill you to let respected and seasoned pastors come in like Papa used to do, Courson, gale, Carl, McClure, your getting the picture. not your hiped entourage friends
    Finally I have a say, I don’t care what anyone writes behind me this was all 100 % true as can be. I won t come back and read it anyone else ive said what I wanted, write what you want!!!!!!!!!!!
    God Bless you Jan

  137. RReach, Welcome. We haven’t heard from many people who were actually at that meeting. This is a place where diverse opinions are shared. None of us here are surprised by this lawsuit. Michael told us months ago that a power battle was brewing and a lawsuit may be coming.

    I believe most of us here,however, are very upset about the part in the lawsuit that essentially accuses the care giver of neglect or murder of Chuck Smith. Anyone who has gone through hospice care understands that an ambulance is not called and nothing is done other than keeping the loved one comfortable and as pain free as possible. This part of the law suit is what is so repugnant to many here and has caused such an uproar.

    I don’t believe anyone here (I could be wrong) disputes there has been an ongoing power play for the leadership and or assets for years.

    I believe (FWIW) Chuck placed Cheryl and Brian in the leadership positions where he wanted them, and did nothing to change that, even when he knew his time was short.

    The church got what Chuck put into place.

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