Loose Ends

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105 Responses

  1. Papias says:

    Here’s a synopsis of the links:

    “Its about you.”

    “Its not about Perry.”

    “Pastors and other church leaders will resign over this matter.” (This is a must read)

    “Nothing to report yet. We will let you know when there is.”

    And why do people leave churches again? (Tongue firmly in cheek)

  2. Michael says:

    If Stetzer is right…this is an earthquake.

  3. DavidM says:

    To be fair, the article indicates that there will be pastors included in the estimated 400 resignations: “Based on my conversations with leaders from several denominations in the U.S. and Canada, I estimate that at least 400 church leaders (pastors, elders, staff, deacons, etc.) will be resigning Sunday.”

    Nevertheless, whether pastors or others, it is still 400 too many.

  4. Michael says:

    DavidM,

    It makes me wonder how many are out there that think they’ve covered their tracks…

  5. Josh the Baptist says:

    If 400 Pastors in America have to resign because of Ashley Madison, we may as well go ahead and shut up all the talk about gay marriage. Apparently, “our way” is proving no bettr than “their” way.

    Sickening. Makes me think of Revelation 3:20 .

  6. EricL says:

    Wow. 400. How many will be allowed to slink away quietly, planning to return to ministry somewhere else as soon as it blows over?

    It also makes you wonder about any minister who has resigned within the last few months. How many of them saw what was coming and decided to jump ship before it all got exposed? Anyone leaving ministry in 2015 will have that potential taint over his resume, whether he was an Ashley Madison customer or not. Sad.

    This will likely linger for years, if Ed Stetzer’s estimate is anywhere close to accurate.

  7. Papias says:

    Stetzer is likely right… but that’s not the problem…The problem is admitting to it….

    There’s probably a whole lot more than that who didn’t bother to use the AM website…

  8. Josh the Baptist says:

    Shut em all down. Close the doors. The Lord has left the building.

  9. Philippe says:

    Wow Greg Laurie. Reminds me of Victoria Olsteen’s infamous God delights in your happiness mumbo jumbo.

  10. Tim - Doulos says:

    The Stetzer article is sobering, to put it mildly. I just crunched some numbers for our city, and based off of the demographics, I estimate 19% of adult males in our town have registered on Ashley Madison.

    Keep in mind the overwhelming majority in this city profess to be Christian.

    We have much work to do on our knees and in discipleship.

    As for those who are pastors…this is staggering. Words escape me. How many more would have to resign tomorrow if p0rn tracking was made public? May God help us.

  11. Crusader says:

    Regarding one of the themes of the Crusade being happiness, it should be pointed out that Greg Laurie also said, “The key to finding happiness is we have to look in the right places and in the right person, God.” If there’s any idea that he would be referring to something outside of salvation in Christ for happiness, then the next time he would present such an idea would be the first time (in light of his prior preaching track record).

  12. Paige says:

    What the heck. How did we all get to be so delusional? Lord Jesus, bring repentance to us all….. makes us so aware of our depravity and desperate need for You and how breathtakingly thankful we need to be every moment of our brief lives.

  13. Philippe says:

    > At my old church, I knew the pastor and he knew everyone. Can I spend time with Perry?

    > Not only is that unrealistic, but the Bible provides no such example for leaders of large gatherings of people—not Moses, not Paul, and not even Jesus Himself.

    So you are a megachurch pastor… why? Oh, Acts 6:1-7 apparently. Yay prooftexts.

  14. Michael says:

    Paige…amen and amen!

  15. Josh the Baptist says:

    If Laurie has even one second of the Pharell song play during the crusade, he should hang it up, too.

  16. Michael says:

    Crusader,

    The pursuit of happiness is a constitutional concept, not a biblical one.

  17. Michael says:

    Phillipe,

    Exactly…

  18. Crusader says:

    If Greg Laurie presents happiness in context of blessedness due to his/her sins being forgiven (via salvation in Christ), there’s nothing wrong with that.

  19. Laura Scott says:

    As a survivor of the fallout of non-Ashley Madison adultery, I need to remind you all this particular sin is rampant in all avenue of society and in our churches.

    Those 400 folks were simply stupid enough to sign their names to their desires and intents openly. In no way does getting busted change that for them, unless they want it to.

    When you speak out, please remind yourself that a larger number than you realize has already has this ruin lives or are in the process of having their lives ruined by adultery; adultery that did not need a URL to be done.

    So, be careful of a high-horse situation to prevent even more damage being done.

  20. Josh the Baptist says:

    I’m sorry Laura, I have to go high-horse on Pastoral adultery. There is no place for it. Got to get it all the way out of the church. Start with the pulpit.

  21. Josh the Baptist says:

    Bob, I see your Mcferrin, and raise you a :

  22. Laura Scott says:

    Josh, I get that. In no way am I saying this should be soft-sided. Had I the guts then, I would have dragged my then-husband through the streets, chained to the bumper of my car.

    As it was, the public embarrassment was mine to bear.

    Just keep that in mind before folks run for the torches and pitchforks.

  23. DavidM says:

    Don’t you think that Laurie’s “happiness” angle is simply a marketing tool in order to fill the seats? If he said the theme is going to be “repent of your sins and turn to Jesus”, well, most likely not many would be interested. He will probably default to his long-time message: repent of your sins and turn to Jesus. He might be using the Beatitudes as a springboard, who knows? I think the jury should be out until the crusade has been completed. Then those who are actually interested in what he preached can know for sure.

    Crusade evangelism, I’m not crazy about it. But, where and when it is viable, there is always going to be the marketing of it.

  24. Steve Wright says:

    There are two primary Hebrew words used for “blessed” in the Bible…one of those two words has the idea of happiness and is even translated that way in many places of the old King James as well as most of the modern translations in different areas (no doubt to draw the distinction for English readers not looking up Hebrew words)

    Mostly found in the wisdom books of Proverbs and Psalms

    Maybe best to see what Greg preaches before the criticism begins since one can certainly give a “happy” message and be 100% faithful to the Scripture.

    http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?strongs=H835&t=KJV

  25. Josh the Baptist says:

    Ahh, I understand now, Laura.

    Very sorry you had to go through that.

  26. Josh the Baptist says:

    Steve, you are correct, but if he uses the Pharell song he’s still awful 🙂

  27. Sinner and Saint says:

    Michael, is it possible that Greg is using happiness as kind of a hook because it’s such a big desire/hot topic amongst people and then using it as a way to point people to the gospel is our only means of fulfillment and joy. Kind of an Augustinian “our hearts are restless until they find rest in Christ” or Edwardsian “we find our greatest joy when we delight in him” ?

  28. Michael says:

    I simply quoted what he said to the L.A. Times.
    I linked to the article so you could read it yourself.
    Make your own application…

  29. Steve Wright says:

    Josh, Actually, having heard Greg many times at this crusade, he takes what is a very prominent current event(s) and incorporates that into the message – especially pop culture. So yeah, I really hope the music would not be played…but I would not at all be surprised if he mentioned this huge #1 song everyone in the nation loves so much and then went on to say something like ‘But let me tell you where real happiness can be found…”

    His text could very well be Psalm 32 (and the Romans commentary quoting that passage)

    Time will tell but, no matter what one thinks about crusade evangelism, Greg usually gives a solid gospel message

  30. Captain Kevin says:

    I’m hoping there’s a twist to Greg’s messages in which he explains what it means to be happy in the LORD!!

  31. Em says:

    amen to so much that has been posted here… all the corruption in our churches is laid out in the letters to those (7) churches… God knows… Lord help us to grow in grace and strength and hate what You hate in a manner that pleases You. Strengthen us in these sorrowful, corrupted times

  32. Josh the Baptist says:

    Just to be clear, I have no moral issue with Greg using that song…I just hate that song. And it seems like something a preacher would do.

    Also want to Amen Em’s prayer above.

  33. SJ says:

    The Noble info page is a big middle finger to the church members.
    I know with church growth it can be hard to attend to every members need, but that page is really in your face about. Wonder if they know how they come across?

  34. Jim says:

    I agree with Steve on Harvest/Greg L.

    Mt friends are usually surprised to find that I’ve always supported Harvest, and admired Greg for being a fool for Christ to get butts in the seats. How will they believe without hearing?

    Then again, I wore spandex for Jesus back in the day….

  35. Alex says:

    Any CC pastors on that list?

  36. Alex says:

    …I mean besides the obvious ones LOL

  37. Alex says:

    Greg Laurie has honed a very marketable schtick and has become a very wealthy and very famous celebrity b/c of it.

    I don’t think he is a “servant” of God at all, but he’s a good businessman and has done well for himself and his family.

    He wouldn’t do what he does if he didn’t make that sort of money and get that sort of fame. That is the sad truth of the matter.

  38. Alex says:

    The Greg Laurie’s wouldn’t do what they do for meager wages, let alone if it actually cost them money and they went in the hole b/c of “serving”.

    You can tell the Real Deals from the fakes by asking and exampling this question:

    Would you “serve” if you didn’t make any money from it? What about if it cost you a lot of money?

    You can cut through all the b.s. and spin right there….

  39. Alex says:

    “You cannot serve two masters”

    Very true…and those who make “ministry” a business and career…despite their spin and defense of their greed for money and fame….are serving themselves and not Jesus…no matter how sound their doctrine is or how good their message makes you feel etc.

  40. Alex says:

    “My Board approved it! I make the same as any CEO in the world who runs a similar sized Business!”

    Jesus said, do not emulate the world, do not do things as the world does. He told the Apostles/Disciples to do things upside down, to do things the opposite of how the world does…be “servant of all”.

    Cutting through all the b.s….the Celebrity Pastors are not nearly servants and are Anti-Christ in how they get rich and famous from selling the Gospel for greedy gain.

    It’s disgusting. But, hey, the truth doesn’t matter.

  41. My friend started helping at a church upon the departure of a mutual friend.
    The role she’s helping in has been a paid role.

    When I told her that they would ask her about finances she said, “I’ve got a job”.

    She won’t take $

    I SO admire my friend!

  42. Alex says:

    ^^ THAT is a “servant”. Well done!

  43. Alex says:

    2 Corinthians 2:17 Unlike so many, we do not peddle the word of God for profit. On the contrary, in Christ we speak before God with sincerity, as those sent from God.

    Guessing Greg Laurie and others have this verse conveniently blacked out in their bibles…

  44. Alex says:

    Be honest.

    What is the #1 Goal of every single Calvary Chapel prospective pastor?

    To build a “ministry” with as many tithing/giving warm bodies as possible so they can get a paid salary and benefits, have a big building, take trips, do the Pastor’s conferences etc.

    Success if measured by the size of your giving “flock” and the size of your building and size of your salary. The bigger you are, the more you make…the more you are “anointed!”

    That is the troof…and you all know it.

  45. Alex says:

    …and the bigger you get…the more you rake in…the more you justify your bigger and bigger salary and perks and use the other big greedy rich guys as your justification:

    “Well, Mark Driscoll makes this! Greg Laurie makes that! James MacDonald makes that!” etc.

    What a scam. You’re only fooling yourselves. You have your reward. You might even be going to hell.

  46. London says:

    I’m surprised if it’s only 400

  47. Eric says:

    The top leaders of megachurches need to stop using the word pastor. They are preachers and ministry leaders, not pastors.

    As for Noble, I watched a sermon of his and wanted to argue with him more than any other preacher I can remember. Straw men everywhere.

    I hope the hackers can/have to release more data to indicate, as much as possible, who were the regular users of the site and who just had a look at one time.

  48. CrucifiED says:

    In the last few years and culminating with the Ashley Madison hack, God has really been socking a blow to the moralistic Gospel that has taken us away from the message of our protestant fathers.

    That is one glimmer of hope I take from all this, as heavy and sad as it has all been, beginning with Bob Coy, and local churches where I live even before that.

    It terrifies me as well as I wonder of the mercy God has shown me with my own filthy sins.

  49. To jump on the Greg Laurie wagon, let me just say this – I like the guy and I really appreciate his ministry. Oh, I may say, like I did the other day that he teaches a theology of glory – so what? I disagree with much of what he teaches on a “theological” level, but the guy is the bomb when it comes to being concerned about the lost.

    All of this, all of these years and there has never been a hint of doing bad in the ministry.

  50. Babylon's Dread says:

    Lonnie Frisbee on Greg Laurie

    OK, back to Harbor High School on a hot, hot, hot day. There was a young student who was working on building a reputation at the school. Some say he was a small time pot dealer, but rumors are rumors. Our group was on the lawn area, and I was preaching the Gospel like Peter on the day of Pentecost. Believe me! It was like the day of Pentecost. The believers were standing all around and I stood in the midst. I began to open my mouth and the anointing of God was on me –– I’m telling you!!! In the background I could hear someone saying things like –– “So you think that you know it all huh???” Little railing accusations from a brat came flying at me. He said rude things, and then he began to mock openly. It was like having mosquitoes come around your head. Swatting them away is not the same thing as getting them with a bug zapper. He was making my train of thought get off, because he was railing blasphemous things. And so the Lord said, “Stretch forth thy hand and with the authority I’ve placed on your life –– you bring him down.” So I did exactly what the Lord said. I stretched forth my hand, and used the authority that God put in my words, and I turned everything that he was saying around on him in divine judgment. He fell on the ground powerless. Before everyone God struck him with the power and presence of God. The young student, Greg Laurie, was saved that day, and God also baptized him with the Holy Spirit. It was dramatic. Subsequently, God raised him up to be a pastor at the age of nineteen years old. He was seventeen when he was converted, and raised up to pastor Harvest Christian Fellowship in Riverside, CA (from a group that I started at All Saints Episcopal Church, which is right down the street from the present church location). Harvest has grown tremendously, and Greg Laurie now pastors one of the tenth largest churches in America. Harvest Christian Fellowship is the first pilot Calvary Chapel offspring. It is an excellent evangelistic church and Bible teaching center, which I highly recommend. But I’m telling you that back on that hot day at Harbor High School, Greg Laurie got converted when he was struck from on high by the power of God. He was struck down a mocker, and raised up a son of God. It was a very powerful Saul of Tarsus type of conversion, where there was an experience literally from the sky. He became my little brother and spiritual son from that day forward. We were together almost every day, while God had him in my school. He knew my schedule, and followed me everywhere. He spent time with my family, and came to my meetings. In the very beginning of his walk, Greg became the famous cartoonist that invented the Living Water tracks. He did cartoon tracks, and that was his introduction to an amazing career of serving God. Chuck and Kay Smith immediately adopted him as a young gifted leader. I’m recognizing Greg Laurie as a spiritual son in my life that went on to have great success independently of my decisions in his life. It’s really important that people find their individual priesthoods and not be controlled by headquarters –– because then the anointing of God cannot have freedom. That’s what Greg did. He recently packed out Anaheim Stadium with over sixty thousand people in oneof the huge Harvest Crusades. He continues to work closely with Chuck Smith to this very day. There is power in unity! Many are saying he is a young Billy Graham with the thousands of people that are coming to a saving knowledge of our Lord through his ministry. Greg Laurie was the son I never had –– and it was not by might, nor by power –– but by my Spirit saith the Lord!

    Frisbee, Lonnie; Sachs, with Roger (2012-06-26). Not by Might, Nor by Power: The Jesus Revolution (pp. 126-127). Freedom Publications. Kindle Edition.

  51. Steve Wright says:

    Greg has ministered the last several years with the grief of losing his son…no small thing.

    The book he wrote in the aftermath of that loss I know has comforted many people, including a few I know who have lost children far too early. And of course, Greg was able to help Rick Warren when his son took his life.

  52. Surfer51 says:

    Quit your nit pickin on Greg and read the Bible…

    https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm+34&version=NLV

  53. Surfer51 says:

    It was a bible study at Harbor High School out on the lawn on a Friday at lunch that Greg got saved.

    I was present.

    Lonnie had ought against Greg when he recounted the story so he exaggerated.

    We had a unusually beautiful blond sister in our group that Greg had interest in.

    So Greg followed her secretly that day and ended up on the lawn where we had gathered, as per our usual to eat lunch and worship Jesus together.

    We had invited the youth pastor of Calvary Chapel, Lonnie Frisbee to be our guest speaker.

    There was nothing unusual that transpired really, for that period of time people were getting “Saved” daily.

    A bunch of students were around us who were curious about what was going on, they had gathered around our circle where we all were sitting cross legged on the grass.

    Lonnie stood up in the center of the circle and began to preach the gospel message.

    He beckoned Greg to come into the circle while pointing directly at him. Ya Greg was a typical young teenager who made a few comments to his buddies. But so were some others who mocked.

    Greg complied and entered into our circle, he was “slain-in-the-Spirit” when Lonnie touched him.

    Greg collapsed and then came up speaking in tongues and was baptized in the Holy Spirit.

    Afterwards Greg hung out with us Christians and grew in his knowledge of the Word of God at what seemed an accelerated pace in my opinion. He was constantly getting revelation from when he would read the Bible.

    The man we see in the pulpit today is no different than the young Greg we all knew in High School.

    He has always had a deep passion for the Word of God and serving Jesus. Something he never lost.

    Lonnie Frisbee was upset that Greg ended up with the Riverside fellowship that he had started at All Saints Episcopal in the basement.

    Lonnie abandoned that fellowship by handing it off to Chuck Smith Jr. who then handed it off to Greg who remained dedicated to it and it grew into what we see today.

    The reason Lonnie abandoned it was because at the time everything was happening in Costa Mesa.

    Riverside was super smoggy and a long drive, at least that was what I understood.

    I got to know Greg well when he attended and helped out at our Bible Book Store at the Newport Beach pier that we all started.

    Greg was always super sold out for Christ and told everyone he could about the Gospel message.

    He never stopped. He just kept on moving forward…

    Here is a video I recorded with some more information:

  54. DavidM says:

    Lonnie “had ought” against Greg?? Wow, I haven’t heard that term since the days of the Jesus Movement when we all read the KJV.

  55. Babylon's Dread says:

    Thank you David.

    I would love to talk more babylonthegreatfallen@yahoo.com

  56. Babylon's Dread says:

    Ok I guess the video was from Surfer51… get in touch I want to pursue more of this conversation.

  57. Bob says:

    “Blessed are those whose ways are blameless, who walk according to the law instructionsof the LORD.

  58. meme says:

    Bob, if you’re going to play with words then get it right… it should read, “Torah”

  59. I like Bob’s use of the strikeout key. Imagine what Joseph Smith could have done had he had word processing.

  60. Alex says:

    Well, that may be all well and good.

    I know a lot of dudes who lost a lot more than Greg Laurie in terms of family, and they aren’t millionaires from selling the Gospel for gain.

    I have a friend whose brother was shot dead, my friend was paralyzed in a car accident and he lost a football career. He isn’t bitter. He praises Jesus and evangelizes with all he’s got.

    And he does it free of charge.

  61. Alex says:

    Folks can defend Greg Laurie’s greed and selling the Gospel for profit all they want. It doesn’t make it right. The man is a multi-millionaire, rich and famous from what? From selling the Gospel.

    It’s disgusting and wrong no matter how you try to justify it.

  62. Xenia says:

    Who are you who judge another’s servant? To his own lord he stands or falls. Yes, he will be made to stand, for God has power to make him stand.

    Romans 14:4

  63. Alex says:

    “Who are you who judge another’s servant?”

    1 Corinthians 5:12 It isn’t my responsibility to judge outsiders, but it certainly is your responsibility to judge those inside the church who are sinning.

  64. Alex says:

    C’mon, don’t play bible verse wars with me.

    I know the bible like I know the alphabet LOL

    There is a yin for every yang

  65. Alex says:

    Greg Laurie is in sin for selling the Gospel for Greedy Profit and making himself rich and famous from it.

    A lot of other dudes are as well.

  66. Alex says:

    In fact, his judgment will be more severe because he should know better.

    He (and others) have had to deny their Conscience many many times over the years to get to the level of Greed and high profit they are today.

  67. Alex says:

    It’s quite a scam.

    Franklin Graham, Driscoll, MacDonald, Coy, Laurie, Ries, insert-your-rich-celeb-pastor-guru-here….

    They all justify their monstrous salaries and perks by pointing to the other guys and saying “See! He makes that much!”

    That’s how the scam works. I talked to a guy in detail who was in EFCA or whatever that “financial accountability” group is. He said that’s how they justify higher and higher pay.

    Franklin Graham is back up to $880,000 per year and there were years he raked in $1.1 million…and after factoring in their tax-free status it is much more money compared to similar salaries that are taxed differently.

    These guys have all built multi-million dollar fortunes. From what? Their Product is the Gospel.

  68. Alex says:

    If you can get all butt hurt and up in arms about Gay Marriage…but you can’t find it in your Conscience to bat and eye about “Pastors” selling the Gospel for Greedy Gain…then I question your Conscience and your ability to know right from wrong.

  69. Alex says:

    Hey, you guys deny the validity and truth of the bible all the time by what you do and what you defend.

    The biggest narrative against the bible and today’s Christianity…it’s you and your Gurus.

    You wonder why Atheism and “other” is on the rise? Why Christianity is declining?

    It’s stuff like this. You are not intellectually honest, you defend things that are clearly wrong to many who are outside your bubble…and clearly wrong from the scripture itself…yet you defend and follow and support it.

    I’m out for the day, said plenty. But when the Spirit moves…..I gotta speak up.

  70. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    “You wonder why Atheism and “other” is on the rise? Why Christianity is declining?”

    These are not on the rise – just more people willing to admit it and talk about it.
    Christianity is not on the decline – just look all over the world. 7 million Lutherans alone, associated with the LCMS in Kenya .

    So, Greg Laurie is going to speak to 50,000 people in Anaheim tonight about Jesus and another who knows how many over the internet – how many are you speaking to tonight Alex?

  71. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    “But when the Spirit moves…..I gotta speak up.”

    Which spirit???

  72. Bob says:

    meme:

    You are correct about Torah, but I thought that would be too advanced for MLD.

    And MLD, why blame just the Smiths why not target Jefferson?

    meme

    The problem is the words interpreted/translated into English via the various scholars are subject to many things including their own prejudice and sect. Steve already pointed out the differences in the words translated into the English word “blessed.”

    There will always be difficulties in translating from one language to another.

    I will say I agree with Alex on this one: “You are not intellectually honest,”

    However, I will add most people aren’t fully honest and often hide or ignore information in defense of their positions, and is not limited to religion.

  73. Alex says:

    “Which spirit???”

    Same one that says in the bible that selling the Gospel for greedy gain is wrong.

  74. Alex says:

    MLD, Greg Laurie is speaking to the already-converted, largely.

    He is simply carving out Market-share from the already-churched.

    Most of the folks that “come forward” already believe in God and the Gospel etc but have “backslidden” or whatever.

    The profile is usually of someone who was raised in the church who lived like the devil but was already saved or baptized before.

    Some of those who this is their first “altar call” are already believers in God and Jesus, they just want a 12-step Program type Turnaround in their lives b/c they are on drugs or alcohol or p0rn etc and the “altar call” is more of a Works-Righteousness Fresh Start for them.

    I don’t think there will be one truly converted person who didn’t believe in God and Jesus but then does after a Greg Laurie message….or very very few.

  75. Alex says:

    MLD, the Gospel isn’t something you say…it’s something you do…it’s who you are.

    That is your fatal flaw.

    You are a Salvation-by-correct-Doctrine type.

  76. Alex says:

    Michael “is” the Gospel.

    It’s never his doctrine or his theology or how many times he quotes the bible verses.

    You are blind my friend.

  77. Alex says:

    Greg Laurie “is not” the Gospel. He is a professional speaker who makes millions by leveraging the Gospel for a following and for profit.

  78. Bob says:

    meme:

    We might agree on one thing, to MLD, and many other, the term “Law” means something completely different than “Torah.”

    Another Hebrew root word translated into Law or Rules is “halakh” which literally means “to walk.” Think of the imagery of walking and and how one walks in his or her love for God? While many feel free from the “Law” in Christianity the NT is filled with the term “walk” and how one does it.

    So the Torah has a root which means “instruction” or “teaching” and Psalms 119 starts out with “Happy (blessed) are those who…walk according to the Torah (instruction) of the Lord”

    And lest it be forgotten Lord is the YHVH or Yehovah.

    Is that enough?

  79. Ixtlan says:

    This is getting interesting.

    @54
    Don’t know who those guys are in the video. Who is Tillson? Their version of what was going on at CCCM back then is a little different than mine. I guess we didn’t attend the same services during the week. Although what they spoke of reminded me of all these independent, itinerant prophet-types that were running around Orange County with some type of mantle. Many of them were really outside an established church.

    Discernment was really low back then, but there was an openness to experience God that I would welcome again. I don’t believe, however, that experiencing God requires the charismatic type of experience that these guys briefly spoke of.

    Discernment is really low today, and there is not as great an openness to experience God. There are a lot of doctrinal police out there who see themselves as discerning, thinking that their way is exclusive, and of course, complete with an array of Bible verse to attempt to prove their point. I saw the same attitude in the first speaker of this video.

    These days for me, I’d much rather move toward some form of spiritual practice of disciplines rather than pentecostal/charismatic experience.

  80. Alex says:

    Bob said, “However, I will add most people aren’t fully honest and often hide or ignore information in defense of their positions, and is not limited to religion.”

    True, agreed. I find it in every Philosophical Camp. Most tend to be intellectually dishonest when they can’t resolve a particular challenge against their particular Sacred Cow…whether religion or humanist/secularist philosophy, New Atheism, Politics etc.

  81. Babylon's Dread says:

    I think Alex is correct that we have never solved the matter of the Gospel and gain. Even at my position it would be wrong not to think it through.

    Practicing free market religion as we do in the free church tradition has had this outcome. To the degree that we create followers (a market) to that degree we receive recompense.

    So we have a cottage industry of church and many people make a living from it.

    We have few answers and many questions.

    Things are changing and will change more.

    Alex is bombastic and boorish, but he raises matters that must be answered. I believe he is too quick to turn a judgement which is proper into a condemnation which is above his pay grade but still he is fearless.

    Those who live with pain are often fearless.

  82. Em says:

    “Greg Laurie is in sin for selling the Gospel for Greedy Profit and making himself rich and famous from it.

    A lot of other dudes are as well”

    there is just no way that i can disagree with the above

    that said,
    these rich figureheads/evangelists… whatever their role… may truly love God’s redemption plan and they are only diminishing their reward in eternity… what they are proving is that God is very gracious to our blind spots…
    IMHO (that’s all it is, a guess) these men have lived their lives in a time of great prosperity in this nation and i think that, in their desire to be good providers for their high maintenance wives and children, they don’t see that they are robbing God at all – what they see is that their families live on the same level of prosperity as their sycophant circle of acquaintances …. so? “God has blessed me” … probably far more than they realize

    said before – we don’t – we REALLY don’t – cover our point men with enough prayer

    and, yes, some do, obviously dance with the devil – a scary outcome awaits those types

    just sayin, vamping while i wait to see if the fire gets here… it’s still about 12 miles further up the canyon… kind of like waiting on the Lord 🙂 kinda

  83. Steve Wright says:

    Would you “serve” if you didn’t make any money from it? What about if it cost you a lot of money? You can cut through all the b.s. and spin right there….
    —————————————————————–
    Doesn’t matter. You still get a page on the Abuse site.

    As to the conversation..it was almost seven months to the date we had a quite a big one here at PhxP. More than a few pastors weighed in too. Including yours truly

    https://phoenixpreacher.com/?p=20524

    How Moses Made His Bones

    Groundhog Day….

  84. charles says:

    When Greg Laurie stops passing the hat around anaheim stadium, and when they stop taking multiple tithes in both of his locations then I will take him seriously, if you notice over the years his dress is becoming more and more extravagant, I am waiting for him to bust out in a Benny Hinn outfit this year. Seriously he is becoming a mockery of what was once a place for souls to get saved.

    I came forward at a Harvest in the early nineties and do not remember the opulence that surrounded the crusades now.

    Starting to see why those people who protest out front of the stadium are there.

    Ill gotten gain only leads to fallen heroes.

    Don’t get me wrong I will always appreciate what God has done, but do you think that the Lord would walk out wearing expensive clothing or showing clips of him and the disciples riding their 30,000 dollar Harleys? I think not.

    All in the name of the Lord….

  85. Alex says:

    “Doesn’t matter. You still get a page on the Abuse site.”

    I thought I took that down. I think I did for some time, but you’re such a dick sometimes that it makes me suspicious about you.

    It’s off now.

  86. Alex says:

    Pastor is a high calling. It’s not for everyone. It’s certainly not for me.

  87. Michael says:

    Alex…had to take that one down.
    We need to have a blog still standing for next week. 🙂

  88. Em says:

    Alex!!! you had Pastor Wright on your Abuse sight? … consider your hand slapped – hard

    agreeing with Xenia this a.m. over on TGIF … pastor is a high and wearying calling – no doubt … thank God for our good ones

  89. meme says:

    Bob, thank you for the clarification… Agree 100%!

    Alex, good to see that SPIRIT of TRUTH moving in you again… I missed IT!

  90. Pastor Brian David Laurie says:

    ” if you notice over the years his dress is becoming more and more extravagant, ”

    Now I think you are being petty. The man is in his early 60’s. As you get older, the backwards baseball caps, team jerseys and baggy shorts just don’t cut it anymore (sorry MLD). Any critiques I may have with Laurie, his wardrobe choices isn’t one of them.

  91. Xenia says:

    I think we all have enough discernment to notice a thing or two about the guy in the pulpit. Is he full of himself? Thinks he’s God’s gift to mankind? This should be obvious within the first few opening jokes. Such a person may just be the kind of person who expects a big salary and succumbs to the flattery of women. You may think he is a “good teacher” but how much of that is force of personality? I’ve visited churches with this type of person in the pulpit and never went back. If people are attracted to this kind of “charisma” (which is not genuine charisma at all) then they shouldn’t be surprised at any eventualities.

  92. meme says:

    PBDL: Can you afford to shop at Fashion Island? That’s where Greg hangs out…

    GL’s Blog: Book signing “Lost Boy” at Barnes and Noble in Newport Beach, Fashion Island

    I will be there Sunday, October 26. If you would like to to come and get a copy of Lost Boy and have me sign it, I will be there at 3:00 P.M.

    The Barnes and Noble is located inside the Fashion Island shopping center.

  93. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Alex,
    “MLD, the Gospel isn’t something you say…it’s something you do…it’s who you are.”

    That is such post modern crap it’s ridiculous. In fact it is beyond post modern – it’s just plain heresy. Look, no one comes to Christ without hearing the Gospel – which eans someone has to say it,

    I think you are confusing the way people come to the Dali Lama (who is an atheist) as opposed to how someone comes to Jesus.

  94. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    meme – if you can afford to shop at any mall in South OC you can afford to shop at Fashion Island. The all have the same stores.

    Quit bellyaching about what Greg wears – in the end I’ll bet you still believe identical to him in your doctrine… which is the dangerous part not some $300 shirt.

  95. Disillusioned says:

    Dread,
    “Those who live with pain are often fearless.”

    Dang. That hit me like a ton of bricks. It explains a LOT.

  96. Em says:

    on $300 shirts – if you have only 2 or 3 and they are quality and you are willing to wear them for the next 5 – 10 years, they are a good choice … better than 3 $20 shirts that only last 3 months… and, don’t assume that someone has spent $300 on that shirt, their wife just may be a very canny shopper… or not… dunno… could be

  97. Em says:

    #94 – amen to that…

    Romans 10:14 is pretty clear on that… guess Alex knows that verse, eh? but still, if we say we’re Christians, “not perfect, just forgiven” … and live like it’s necessary to demo the fact, we’re going to close a whole lot of what might otherwise be inquiring minds – so there is a point …

    come let us reason together… somebody said that a few years back

  98. Babylon's Dread says:

    I want to get in touch with Surfer51

    babylonthegreatfallen@yahoo.com

    Or anyone else with Jesus People revival stories…

    River Dread

  99. Surfer51 says:

    MLD at 94

    Right on dude!

    How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?
    Romans 10:14

  100. Ixtlan says:

    @99
    What/why do you want to know?

  101. Babylon's Dread says:

    Ixtian

    I have written a thesis related to this period and want to continue pursuing the real experiences of people. I want the story … how what when where who

  102. brian says:

    alex asked “Would you “serve” if you didn’t make any money from it? What about if it cost you a lot of money?”

    Well, I can actually say yes to this one and there is not a day that does not go by that I dont loathe myself for it. Because I did not have bank I could not afford the care my mother needed to die at home, it really was all she wanted in the end. She would be really ticked if she knew I felt that way but I am what I am. Bank always gives you options when compared to not having bank. Of course, I would most likely I would dump most of it back into “ministry” which proves I have never done ministry. It is a giant mind game to twist a person up like a spider hanging over the flames by a thread. I get that.

  103. brian says:

    I am so heart broken for the Ashley Madison people I E the kids and spouses and church families broken by the revelation. I find not glee or joy in seeing any person crash and burn, another one of my many personality flaws. I actually wish all folks would have lifelong meaningful joy filled families and faith communities, but I am stupid and I know it. But I still hope it.

  104. Em says:

    brian, gotta say
    you’re no stupider than most of us… it’s just that you confess it 🙂 and
    FWIW, you are much like Michael’s hero Bowden, it’s just that your fight is playing out in a more anonymous way… you have many brothers and sisters, who fight and cry and swear silently and keep on fighting … all in their own corners and only God and the people they’re willing to stoop to help really know … but don’t doubt God just because you’re privileged to walk where the devil shows his hand … praying for you and your kind

    p.s. while i was typing this my daughter came in and said it is raining – PRAISE GOD
    the neighbor had told her husband that if we got rain, she’d go outside, take her clothes off and dance in it … she is … (we’re in fire country at level 1 alert with winds predicted to gust to 40 – 60, planning to pack up and leave today – maybe we won’t)

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