Loose Ends

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80 Responses

  1. ( | o )====::: says:

    “No Responses”?

    Michael,
    I appreciate this post. Thank you for your willingness to keep the discussion about how CC needs to progress, love and serve itself and the greater church universal.

  2. Jean says:

    Michael,

    Maybe you could educate a few of us (like me) who aren’t familiar with the CC and ODM movements. I understand the objections to Warren from a Reformation perspective. But, how does he offend the CCs and ODMs?

  3. ( | o )====::: says:

    Jean,

    ODM = Online Discernment Ministries

    http://www.lighthousetrailsresearch.com/
    http://www.understandthetimes.org/
    http://www.raptureready.com/

    there’s a woman who posts here often, I forget her name

  4. Michael says:

    Jean,

    He offends the ODM’s because they don’t like his evangelistic methodology and his indifference to eschatology.
    He is also that hated word…”ecumenical”.

    Chuck Smith hated him because he built a bigger church than Chuck did…but that little detail is not well known or publicized.

  5. ( | o )====::: says:

    moderation??

  6. Michael says:

    Thank you, Gman!

  7. Michael says:

    Multiple links will always be caught in the filter…

  8. Judy says:

    How do you respond to this stuff? It’s so common now. It seems to be the rule rather than the exception in high places.

  9. Michael says:

    I just try to keep telling it like I see it and hope others see it as well.

  10. Josh the Baptist says:

    I think Rick Warren does Church exactly backwards.

  11. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Josh – he starts with the closing prayer? 😉

  12. Michael says:

    Josh,

    But does that make him a heretic or evil?
    I’ve never been to one of his services,but I’ve met a few of his parishioners…and something is being done right…

  13. Al says:

    Good stuff Michael.

    Yes, isn’t it ironic that Lighthouse Trails Research and others don’t seem to be concerned about Dooshville’s disqualifications to be pastor per the bible….don’t care that Chuck Smith and Costa Mecca directly intervened against his Board when they wanted to discipline him….yet Chuck Smith lied to my face in my meeting with him and said he and Costa Mecca “never” do that sort of thing?

    The ODM’s are a lot like Black Lives Matter, they go nit-picking at specks while 90% of black dudes are murdered each year by other black dudes. Similar dynamic. They are blinded by their own bias and own Agenda.

  14. Josh the Baptist says:

    MLD – That would explain his huge numbers.

    Michael, heretic? Possibly, according to some of the early church councils, but I don’t care about that. Evil? Only the lord knows his heart. I’m sure out of 20,000 or so people who go to his church, some are very nice. Every Mormon I know is exceptionally nice. I still have about a dozen friends who go to or work at Elevation.

    He asked a question in starting his church, that I think set it up completely backwards. His numerical success paved the way for every newer mega church that is around today. They follow his script, which is fatally flawed.

    So was his plan intentionally devious? Don’t know, but it has adversely affected 100’s of thousands at the least.

  15. Jean says:

    “I think Rick Warren does Church exactly backwards.”

    I don’t understand this. Josh, could you explain what you mean?

  16. Al says:

    Greg Laurie is a mutli-millionaire and his only Product he sells is the Gospel and Jesus.

    Greg would not do it for free.

    That does not pass the common sense “Servant” test.

    I disagree that Greg Laurie is such a great guy. He’s a very rich and powerful celebrity who has his reward…and he sets a terrible example and disillusions more people than he re-converts and recycles in the Already-Churched Group.

  17. Michael says:

    Josh,

    I have yet to hear one thing from him that is unorthodox.
    I may just not have heard it, but he seems to be theologically in accord with the early creeds and councils.

  18. Josh the Baptist says:

    Jean, you’d probably have to read his Purpose Drive stuff to get the full picture, but to put it in a nutshell, he made a church to please the attenders. He actually polled the neighborhood, asked them what they wanted in a church, and delivered. Basically, that points church towards people rather than God. It is sure to be very successful, because hey, who doesn’t like ice-cream? But, are the people being surveyed likely to say anything about the Scriptures, the Holiness of God…or anything that doesn’t benefit them in some way? Nope.

  19. Michael says:

    Alex,

    I have zero evidence that Greg Laurie is a bad guy.
    He does make a good living, perhaps too much of a good living,but that was not always the case.
    Until I have evidence, I will not argue that he is anything but a successful American evangelical entrepreneur…

  20. Josh the Baptist says:

    Michael, the earliest creeds, yes. But you asked if he was a heretic, and technically I guess all Protestants are heretics. But anyway, like I said. Not my issue.

  21. Al says:

    Michael, I’ve never heard a bad word about Greg Laurie in terms of the scandals we’re both privy to in CC many times over.

    My beef with him is Jesus’s beef with him…if the bible is true and if Jesus’s words and example are true and real.

  22. Al says:

    Rich Old Ruler.

    Greg Laurie serves the god he loves most.

  23. Al says:

    But as always it can easily be spun away, reinterpreted, apologized for, excused etc….but it’s still very wrong and it concerns me that others in their Conscience don’t perceive it as wrong.

  24. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    I think I mentioned before that the Baptist church right next door to ours was the church Rick Warren built when he was small. Now, my church has renovated over the years and built a new sanctuary and Rick moved up the street onto acres upon acres and built buildings upon buildings. So I can’t argue with that kind of success.

    He bought the Rancho place from the Hour of Power in San Juan Capistrano and everywhere I drive in SoCal their is another satellite church. So he is doing growth right.

    My problem is that a few years back he spoke at both a Jewish event and then a Muslim eventand in both cases told them that he was not there to tell them they needed to do anything different than what they were doing.

    But I know many who go there. Everytime there is an event, there are more lawn signs in my neighborhood than at election time.

  25. Josh the Baptist says:

    Al – I agree that preachers profiteering from the Gospel is a bad thing.

    I can’t condemn the guy though. The rich young ruler story that you referenced, if we take it literally, and apply it globally, would mean any of us that have kept at least one possession are not allowed to follow Christ.

  26. Josh the Baptist says:

    MLD – When he polled the Muslims and Jews about what they wanted in a church, they said “not Jesus”.

  27. Papias says:

    “Some indeed preach Christ from envy and rivalry, but others from good will. The latter do it out of love, knowing that I am put here for the defense of the gospel. The former proclaim Christ out of selfish ambition, not sincerely but thinking to afflict me in my imprisonment. What then? Only that in every way, whether in pretense or in truth, Christ is proclaimed, and in that I rejoice. Yes, and I will rejoice” [Phl 1:15-18 ESV]

    Lifechurch is opening a location down the street from where I live, and while I don’t plan to visit, I would gladly share a cup o joe with one of their folks.

    They do church backwards…but show me chapter and verse for how we are supposed to plant churches? Not the way I would do it, so God is probably involved in it…

  28. Josh the Baptist says:

    Papias is on the “if it draws people it’s right” bandwagon.

  29. Nonnie says:

    I remember when The Purpose Driven Life was in all the CC bookstores….and then it wasn’t.
    The contents of the book didn’t change.

  30. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Papias – I am sure that on there first Sunday the entire sanctuary will be filled with Christians from other churches.
    Strike one right there.

    I remember a couple of years ago a program got brough before our board that I was presiding on a way to increase the number of kids in our school. We are close to 2 Lutheran High Schools and the district office. The plan was to offer discounts to the workers at each to enroll their kids at our schools.

    Pastor said no, he would object to such a plan as it wold guilt parents into thinking they should join our church instead of remaining where they were – he would not be involved in sheep stealing. So we voted down the proposal.

    These giant churches when they open new local branches, should name themselves First Church of Sheep Stealing of (fill in the city).

  31. Cash says:

    Papias,

    That is a great Scripture to add to our discussion. Paul didn’t care who was preaching Christ or their motive in doing so. His rejoicing came because Christ was being preached. Period.

  32. Josh the Baptist says:

    Sorry Papias, my last quip sounded meaner than I meant for too. Unnecessary on my part.

  33. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    I would love to have coffee with Rick Warren. One of his kids was smart enough to have Rick’s granddaughter enroll in our pre school for 3 years. Rick was on our campus several times.
    Us grandpas need to stick together

  34. Josh the Baptist says:

    The defense that Cash and Papias are offering here is the exact reason why guys like Driscoll, Heitzig, Perry Noble, etc. are allowed to go on for so long.

  35. Michael says:

    I don’t know an evangelical church here that doesn’t try to cater to the people in everything from worship music to coffee brands. I fail to understand how that is different from what Warren does.

  36. Michael says:

    I do most everything for free and hope I have treasure in heaven.
    Unfortunately, it is very difficult to draw on that account to pay the light bill or buy your kid a skateboard.
    The worker is worthy of his wage and there is no sin in making your living as paid clergy.
    That living should reflect that of the people you pastor.
    Trust me when I say that poor doesn’t equal holy…

  37. Josh the Baptist says:

    Michael @ 35 – Exactly! They are copying what he did! Not because it was scripturally correct, but because it drew large numbers!

  38. Cash says:

    Josh,

    I guess the Apostle was derelict in his duties then and should’ve demanded change. Remember the wheat and the tares? He said to let them grow up together. It’s hardened attitudes toward people that make these ODM’s so dangerous. They spread falsehood and hatred among the church.
    Secondly, I have never supported or argued against exposing those in the ministry who have been negligent in dealing with people. That wasn’t my point.

  39. Papias says:

    The only “defense” I offer is if the church is preaching Christ crucified, then their ecclesiology is a secondary discussion.

    While I prefer the axiom “Stepping out in fait” methodology to church planting than to have the marketing people involved, there ain’t no one who starts a church singing ‘All by myself…”

    And yeah, to have a new church grow due to stealing from another church kinda bothers me still, I’m just glad people are in church, rather than leaving altogether…

  40. Josh the Baptist says:

    Of course the Apostle wasn’t negligent, but those particular words clearly do not have universal application.

    And of course, you and Papias are not guilty of supporting scoundrels in ministry, but the argument you two used is the very same one used to prop up every “successful” pastor.

  41. Josh the Baptist says:

    “I’m just glad people are in church, rather than leaving altogether…”

    That’s the problem though Papias. They ARE leaving altogether. We have more mega churches in our country now than ever before, but we have fewer people attending church than ever before. I believe there is a correlation.

  42. Cash says:

    Josh,
    “Of course the Apostle wasn’t negligent, but those particular words clearly do not have universal application.” I agree with that statement.

  43. Josh the Baptist says:

    Ecclesiology is secondary in relation to salvation but it is primary concerning the health of the congregants.

  44. Michael says:

    It’s not scripturally forbidden to be comfortable in church. To me, this issue is much ado about nothing.
    I care about orthodoxy in doctrine and godly practice.

  45. Papias says:

    If Driscoll, Noble, and Heitzig are listed as the abusers of Preaching Christ through selfish ambition that hurts others by some, then God’s going to have to get their attention. I’m pretty sure none of them started out with that intention…which doesn’t let them off the hook….there’s lots of warnings for teachers who go sideways, not in theology, but in orthopraxy.

    What does God do with someone who preaches Christ but goes kooky with stuff? Im am looking at Noble right now as a positive and Driscoll as a negative example.

  46. Josh the Baptist says:

    Michael, which issue is much ado about nothing?

  47. Jean says:

    I lean more towards Josh’s assessment of Warren than Michael’s or MLD’s.

    In my prior church, my pastor subscribed to Warren’s pay-for sermon outlines. From what I’ve heard directly from Warren, read in his Purpose Driven Life, and sat under in church for a few years, Warren’s sermons are predominantly pop psychology. What I mean is they tend to be multiple point lectures on how to be a better parent, deal with anger, have a better marriage, fight loneliness, find fulfillment in life, etc. In his sermons, we proof texts his points and mixes different translations.

    You could spend years listening to Warren and learn very little about your sin, the Gospel, Jesus’ atonement, etc.

    If he was the genesis for the mega-church/unaffiliated church movement, then he very well may have a lot to answer for. I’m sure he’s a very nice gentleman. But, that’s beside the point.

  48. Josh the Baptist says:

    I don’t understand Papias. Are you saying leave them alone and let God deal with them?

  49. Josh the Baptist says:

    Thanks Jean – That’s exactly what I was trying to say.

  50. Jean says:

    I will never forget a book and sermon series Warren did just a year or so ago built around his Daniel diet book. It was one of the most ridiculous (yet ingenious) things I’ve ever heard.

    But, people probably got a better deal than those who chose Trump University. 🙂

  51. Papias says:

    “Are you saying leave them alone and let God deal with them?”

    Josh – by no means do we leave the likes of Noble, Driscoll, and Hietzig alone. We do want we can to point people to Jesus past these men, holding them as examples of those who are in in for “selfish ambition”. We also want to make the distinction that there are LOADS of pastors who are not like these guys are now.

    I just don’t see the correlation between Warrens approach to church plant and these guys. There may be some relation, but I don’t see a cause and effect here for casting PDL or similar approaches to church planting under a bus.

  52. Em ... again says:

    only one thing is clear to me as i read the thread… bringing people to an understanding of Eternity (how it works and is going to work – for them) is the prime calling of an evangelist – no matter how inept that may be in explaining the details…

    however – i’m trying to think of a justification for an evangelist becoming wealthy off of his calling… i just can’t find one – your wife and children will probably rise up and call you blessed… is that a justification?

  53. Josh the Baptist says:

    “I just don’t see the correlation between Warrens approach to church plant and these guys. ”

    Warren was (is?) a direct one-on-one mentor for two of those three.

  54. Michael says:

    Josh,

    I don’t think Warrens methodology in church planting is much different from the rest of evangelicalism.
    He was simply better at it.
    I have no use for his teaching or methodology… but I do not believe him to be either a wolf or an apostate.
    I applaud his work in social justice and his advocacy for the mentally ill.

  55. Xenia says:

    My church is probably the opposite of seeker-sensitive.

    1. We make everyone stand for two hours
    2. 3/4 of the time the services are in an incomprehensible language
    3. You have to jump through numerous hoops to get to take Communion
    4. You have to tell your sins to the priest
    5. Half the people barely speak English
    6. Half the year you can’t eat meat or dairy

    Yet our parish has quadrupled in the past ten years.

    We must be doing something right.

  56. Josh the Baptist says:

    “I don’t think Warrens methodology in church planting is much different from the rest of evangelicalism.”

    But the things that we rail on about “evangelicalism” are in large part due to Warren’s influence.

  57. Xenia says:

    By the way, the Early Church Fathers taught the Real Presence and baptismal regeneration so unless you are on board with these things, you are not “orthodox” (small “o” orthodox) according to them.

  58. Papias says:

    “Warren was (is?) a direct one-on-one mentor for two of those three.”

    Even if that were true, do you blame the mentor or the “mentee” for their behavior?

  59. nathan priddis says:

    I read Purpose Driven in the early 2000’s and there is almost nothing I remember of it. Warren is within orthodoxy. But I see it as a smothering, homogeneous, pasteurized orthodoxy, created as a bio-feed back to promote Evangelicalism to both the Church and pop culture.

    PD is difficult to nail down on doctrine. I think that is by intent, just like the earlier Billy Graham era.

    To find a tangible issue with Warren, you would need to look to his affiliations and political efforts. First word…Uganda. Uganda is where the rubber met the road, the skid marks met the fruit of the loom. I view it as evil.

  60. Jean says:

    What happened in Uganda?

  61. Josh the Baptist says:

    “Even if that were true, do you blame the mentor or the “mentee” for their behavior?”

    For the record, it IS true. There is no guess work. Warren mentored Noble and Driscoll (along with Furtick and others). I know this for fact.

    Do you blame the mentor? At some point you recognize a pattern. You can continue treating the systems r try to get to the bottom of it.

  62. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Jean,
    “I lean more towards Josh’s assessment of Warren than Michael’s or MLD’s.”

    Don’t get me wrong – I have been a long time critic here of Rick Warren and I believe his whole system is built on sheep stealing and not telling the truth … but I don’t think he is a bad guy. He is a marketing man first and a preacher 2nd. How else do you explain selling a diet plan from the pulpit?

    But, he knows how to put butts in the pews – as someone said above – by telling people what they want to hear.Joel Osteen puts 40,000 butts in the seat every Sunday

  63. Josh the Baptist says:

    Listen, if its up to me, Warren gets a free pass to heaven and international man of the year award.

    That’s not what I’m talking about.

    BUT!!! If we want to be concerned about people getting hurt in church contexts, we can’t pretend that ecclesiology doesn’t matter.

  64. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Someone above said that all of this church growth etc is no issue because Christ is being preached and someone else said because Christ and him crucified is being preached.”

    I say this is almost non existent in today’s evangelical church. Anything but Christ and him crucified is taught / preached in today’s evangelical church – I mean come on, the sermon is about Jesus and the work or effect of his crucifixion for the believer is preached? I don’t think so.

    Anyone want to post a sermon from last Sunday morning where that is the topic? You ain’t going to find it – and you are not going to find it in any of these church growth churches because the sermon must center on the attendee.

    What you get in the evangelical church is a lecture about a bible passage or a lesson on how to be a better you … which we love to hear.

  65. Josh the Baptist says:

    I could post one from this past Sunday…because I preached it.

    But we don’t post our sermons.

  66. Michael says:

    Josh,

    I’m not endorsing Warren.
    I’m simply asking that the words heretic and apostate be saved for those who deserve them.

  67. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    I always get a kick – the pastor will teach a whole lesson on David numbering his men and the consequences we should watch out for in our life – and at the end he addresses the unbelievers in the crowd and says “and would you like to know this Jesus and how you can have a relationship with him?” and you sit there scratching your head – what Jesus?, he never mentioned Jesus in the lesson.

  68. Josh the Baptist says:

    I do believe in expository preaching. I think it was Spurgeon who said something like “start with the text and make a bee line to the cross”.

    It’s not an easy thing to do. It takes training and practice, and still it can be difficult. I’ll be forgiving for guys who occasionally don’t get their sermon exactly right.

  69. nathan priddis says:

    @ 60

    Jean there are several elements that resulted in Uganda

    -Warren was labeled as America’s pastor in the 2000’s. (he is not)
    -The North American culture wars were a failure.(example being California’s Prop 8)
    -It needs to be remembered that The World Christian Movement is primarily directed towards non-north American targets. (and has been for many decades)
    -Uganda is an advanced African nation
    -Uganda does not have a strong Muslim presence and is culturally Christian.
    -Is historically Anglo-phone.

    It was the ideal target to be the first “Purpose Driven Nation”.(from memory)

    Step one. Kill the Gays Bill 2009
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uganda_Anti-Homosexuality_Act,_2014

    ….”One month after the conference, a previously unknown Ugandan politician, who boasts of having evangelical friends in the American government, introduced the Anti-Homosexuality Bill of 2009, which threatens to hang homosexuals, and, as a result, has put Uganda on a collision course with Western nations.”..
    http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/04/world/africa/04uganda.html?_r=0

    When things got hot, denials were issued, and international pressure from donor countries cooled of the lynch mob. But to my knowledge, not a dam thing was done, or said on behalf of the first couple of of homosexuals arrested.

    My are major American players operating in Uganda. They could have spoken up.

  70. Al says:

    JTB said, “I can’t condemn the guy though. The rich young ruler story that you referenced, if we take it literally, and apply it globally, would mean any of us that have kept at least one possession are not allowed to follow Christ.”

    No, it’s a parable and not literal. It’s a heart thing….and I have enough evidence observing Greg Laurie to know what he loves more than Jesus.

  71. Al says:

    The fact that Greg Laurie and most these guys justify their becoming Rich and Millionaires knowing their only Product they sell is Jesus and the only money they collect is from people much poorer than they are giving it “to Jesus!” is evidence enough of a seared Conscience in that major area.

    Shame on them. They are wrong and I do have the instruction to judge them 1 Corinthians 5:12 and God will ultimately judge them as well.

    Don’t do as they do. Don’t sell Jesus and become a Millionaire from it by collecting money from those much poorer than you are.

  72. Jean says:

    Thank you Nathan. I do recall the homosexual legislation now that you mention it.

  73. Chris Long says:

    I find it interesting that in a post (an EXCELLENT post by Michael BTW) about the problems of ODM’s and specifically mentioning Laurie and Warren as ones they like to go after, that many of the comments have served to rail against Warren and Laurie. God help us…

    Regarding Laurie, living comfortably is not a sin. While you can find examples of God’s people living poor in the Bible, you can also find examples of ones living well. Just because you serve God doesn’t mean you have to live poor so people think you’re so holy and spiritual…

    Regarding Warren: I’ve read his book “The Purpose of Christmas” which I actually gave as a gift-book to some unbelieving relatives because I liked the skillful presentation of the Gospel (which by the way clearly indicated that Jesus alone was the way to salvation!). l’ve seen him enough other times clearly articulate that He believes faith in Jesus is the only way to salvation, that I am NOT comfortable (as some seem to be) to claim that he’s of the devil in promoting some one world religion! That doesn’t mean that I have agreed with everything he’s done, said, or written, or all of his stylistic choices. It just means that I’m going to be very careful lodging stones against a man that claims to believe in Jesus Christ, has sold millions of books that draw people TO Jesus (as opposed to away from Jesus), and has clearly stated he believes faith in Jesus is the only way to salvation. If I turn out to be wrong, then okay, but honestly, the level of vehemence that I’ve seen come out from some circles towards Rick Warren, a man who I have seen no reason to doubt is my brother in Christ, boggles the mind. It is the same type of vehemence that non-Christians have over Christians in relation to issues like homosexuality. It’s sad when it happens WITHIN the church!

    As for the ODM’s: I wish sometimes that the critics who spend seemingly much of their time attacking fellow people that name the name of Jesus, would instead spend their effort out evangelizing the lost rather than attacking their fellow soldiers. To be blunt, I have found myself wondering just to what degree many of these “discernment ministries” actually are unwittingly doing the work of the devil all the while THINKING they are helping people discern what’s of the devil! In addition to division & discord, pride appears to me to be a common “fruit” among such so-called “ministries”.

  74. Chris Long says:

    Regarding what I wrote I need to clarify that I wasn’t saying that anyone here has specifically claimed Warren is of the devil or promoting a one-world religion – but those are common charges out there. That’s the problem I guess when copying/pasting: I copied and pasted most of that text from a general article of mine on Unity. Here’s a bit from another follow-up addendum article that I think sums up my feelings on Warren:

    Warren is “one prominent person that has been accused of preaching a social gospel since he has gone out of his way to have his church focus on and address issues of poverty, health, HIV/AIDS, orphans, etc. He has personally given boatloads of money to these types of causes and has spearheaded his church in meeting practical needs of people worldwide. However, I have read and seen Rick Warren’s explanations for why he does this: He believes that the Church is SUPPOSED to do these kinds of things – it showcases the love of Jesus to unbelievers – it builds a bridge to them whereby the Gospel can then be presented and be much more likely to be accepted. He believes people want to know you love and care about them on a level they can relate (physically) before you can really reach them on the spiritual level with the Good News of Jesus.

    I do not attend Rick Warren’s church and do not know the man personally, so I can’t comment specifically on what they/he does or how well they execute that, but I must say that type of philosophy seems to line up quite nicely with the Bible as far as I can see. We are SUPPOSED to be known for our LOVE! Instead, Christians are often known for all sorts of other things with LOVE sadly being one of the last. In fact, to our culture, Christians are often seen to be more about HATE than LOVE. And that’s a problem.

    If unbelievers are going to label us as haters or evil people or whatever, they should have to do so CONTRARY to the deeds that we show them. 1 Peter 2:12 says “Keep your conduct among the Gentiles honorable, so that when they speak against you as evildoers, they may see your good deeds and glorify God on the day of visitation.” Our deeds should showcase the love of Jesus, and yes, this means dealing with practical needs of people. Actually, the honest truth is that the Church as a whole has abdicated much of its responsibility along these lines and instead looked to the Government to deal with such things. The Church really should be at the forefront of helping the orphans, the widows, the homeless, the sick, the imprisoned, etc.”

    Anyway, if anyone’s interested, both articles: “Unity & the Body” and “The Social Gospel (addendum 3)” are available at: http://www.laughandlift.com/personalarticles/unityandthebody.html
    and http://www.laughandlift.com/personalarticles/unityandthebody-a3.html

    Happy Sunday to all! 🙂

  75. nathan priddis says:

    @ 74

    Chris you made an excellent post and you are meeting a need in certain people. Separately, I don’t think anyone confused your position as putting down Laurie or Warren in any way. Both of these men are definitely Orthodox.

    The comments on the thread are very diverse because we are very diverse, and that results in us being here.

    Evangelicalism is directed at the widest, most general audience possible, in order to reach the general population. This means that some who have specific or less common interest will be left feeling unfulfilled intellectually, and or doctrinaly. Again, something that will drive traffic to blogs such as this, resulting in comments.

    Massive marketing efforts like Purpose Driven are what I describe as homogenizing. They contribute to a more uniform Church, but leave some feeling isolated, or lost in a sea of conservative evangelicalism. but there is nothing evil about that. In fact that is the definition of orthodoxy.

    People seeking intellectual discussion / stimulation are very happy to talk to, and value people with whom they disagree. Thanks for taking the time to express your thoughts, as they are valuable.

    BTW. I’m not orthodox, so by that definition, I’m the one with the problem, not Warren.

  76. Jean says:

    Nathan,

    Since you said you are not orthodox, would you mind sharing what you believe that is not orthodox?

  77. Nathan,
    This is the question of the hour. In your paragraph “evangelicalism is directed at…
    Just what is this evangelicalism and who is it aim by and at?

  78. Chris Long says:

    Nathan @ 75: Thanks. Indeed, while I don’t comment much and not always even on-top of reading (hence why I missed posting on this yesterday when Michael posted it), I’ve been here for years and the diversity here is pretty astounding. And that’s a good thing. 🙂

    I mean everyone from MLD and Xenia to Dread and all in-between (and out). And of course there’s always Al to liven things up. 🙂 [Hi Al!]

  79. nathan priddis says:

    @77

    You have sorta asked about life, the Universe and everything. It is a segment of an ongoing story, that began outside our World. It was already underway when our world was created.

    @76
    Orthodoxy:
    – a belief or a way of thinking that is accepted as true or correct
    http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/orthodoxy

    Orthodoxy:
    -(from Greek ὀρθοδοξία, orthodoxia – “right opinion”) is adherence to correct or accepted creeds, especially in religion. In the Christian sense the term means “conforming to the Christian faith as represented in the creeds of the early Church”.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orthodoxy

    All orthodoxy came after the Revelation. It may sound like semantics, but over the course of one’s life, you end up very different then those around you.I do not conform to the beliefs of those around me.

  80. Jess says:

    Rick Warren does cater to the desires of many, apparently. I find him boring. But I’m obviously in the extreme minority on that. I attended the San Clemente satellite campus when it first opened. And I was at the mothership campus in Lake Forest for a bit. Rick Warren is really boring to me, he never says anything spiritually challenging, never says anything controversial from the Bible. It’s not even milk. It’s pablum. But that’s what people want. Of course, it’s not about numbers. The person that has a million followers, still might not be pleasing Jesus, whereas the person that ministers faithfully to one, might be more pleasing in His sight.

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