Open Blogging/Harvest Crusade

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96 Responses

  1. London says:

    Shoot. My big post about a FB right wing christian evangelist dude calling democrats the party of the occult, then trying to guilt convert me into being Republican didn’t post.

    Probably better that way…

  2. brian says:

    It has been one of those weeks, to be honest, I will admit, to my shame, I watched some of the harvest crusade right around the “invitation” time. I use to really enjoy such events when I was an active part of the industry, back when I thought it was actually a “church/family”. I remembered the “fellowship” and even “joy” of being part of something that I thought, I know now it is rank emotionalism, had some “eternal” benefit. I have repented of such nonsense, for the most part, or at least I lie to myself that I have.

    What I have never gotten about the business is the salvation thing, a hockey movie I watched had a line in it, the end was coming and a young Jewish kid was talking to a pastor about the signs and he said the Muslims think they are saved, the Christians think they are saved etc what if none of us are saved. I tend to lean that way emotionally. Which is one reason I leaned towards universalism in the slight hope that all of us are saved. I do understand just how wrathful God is and not just at like well sin, but at the fact that our bodies are failing that our cells do not divide perfectly, that we have illness and personality issues and way above all that, we are human.

    I always have found that rather strange to be honest.

  3. Scott says:

    I watched a little of the Harvest Crusade on TBN last night. It was actually a promo piece on Levi Lusko. He was doing the “Ice Bucket Challenge”.

    It was AWE inspiring 😉

  4. Scott says:

    I meant to add that Levi Lusko is quite the rock star these days in the movement, isn’t he?

  5. Michael says:

    “I do understand just how wrathful God is and not just at like well sin, but at the fact that our bodies are failing that our cells do not divide perfectly, that we have illness and personality issues and way above all that, we are human.

    I always have found that rather strange to be honest.”

    You should find that strange. It’s a lie.

  6. Michael says:

    I watched the whole thing.
    I won’t put myself through it again.
    The whole thing makes absolutely no sense to me.
    Laurie is very sincere in believing he’s doing a good thing.
    Maybe he is and I’m too cynical to see it.

    Levi has had the right friends, the right financing, and enough talent to take both and run.

  7. Michael says:

    Greg Laurie was (unknown to him) part of one of the strangest stories in PhxP history.

    Back when we were just getting traction I started getting emails from a group purporting to be the hacking group “Anonymous”.
    That was quite the scary proposition back then.

    They were demanding that I publish information they had on Greg Laurie…or else.
    I was open to doing so…he had been pretty vocal about not liking the blog.

    After a long and terribly weird set of exchanges the “dirt” they had on Laurie was that he drove a BMW and liked to collect expensive miniature trains.

    I told them to do their worst…that wasn’t worth writing about.

    We’re still here, but they did scare the stuff out of me.

  8. Em says:

    I’ll post this here – open blogging still?
    my neighbor is out dancing in her yard naked

    Praise God! – she told her husband that, if it rained that’s what she’d do (her yard is private)
    Praise God because we have rain and we weren’t supposed to – they predicted winds gusting 40 – 60 … not good when you’re 12 miles downwind in a canyon that is burning as i type
    along with the steady stream of assorted firefighters and their equipment going upriver are ambulances – a reminder to pray for the safety of these people, they’re really in harms way in these rugged canyons

    we on level one alert to evacuate and i am so tired this morning that even a breather from this steadily (2 weeks now) advancing threat is welcome and THANK YOU for the prayers and THANK YOU, Lord for the mercies

  9. Scott says:

    #8, “…dirt” they had on Laurie was that he drove a BMW and liked to collect expensive miniature trains.”

    Yeah, but now we know he buys $300 shirts!

    The end is truly upon us! 😉

  10. Michael says:

    Em,

    That’s a big praise indeed!
    We were supposed to have rain and wind this morning…but nothing but sun outside my door.
    I’m good if He sent the rains to you instead. 🙂

  11. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    I watched about 10 min. Since 90% are believers Greg actually makes believers doubt their salvation and that is why 90% of the people on the field are rrcommitments

  12. Michael says:

    MLD,

    Recommits and crusade volunteers.
    If you only listened to the first ten minutes all you heard were umpteen pop culture references.
    I wonder if that crowd even knew who some of those references were…I don’t think Milton Berle is big in that demographic.

  13. Michael says:

    Interesting…
    They broadcast the whole thing over Kestlers CSN…and were very careful not to name the network.
    They kept referring to 450 radio stations…never mentioned the network.

  14. Xenia says:

    Em, neighbors….

    Right now my crack-addled neighbor is in his front yard screaming obscenities at the sweet elderly Chinese lady next door. He’s been hysterical for about a week now, making loud animal sounds, grinding his teeth, occasionally jumping on his bike and pedaling furiously up and down the street screaming. He even scares my friendly boozed soaked stoner neighbor across the street. Gunshots were fired a few nights ago and what that was all about is a complete mystery.

    You know, when he was a teenager, he probably thought he had joined the cool kids, the ones that took edgy drugs. “Coolness” is the devil’s favorite bait, I think. Of course now he’s not cool to anyone, he’s a complete spectacle and his cool friends of his youth are either dead, in jail, or rescued by God. The pursuit of coolness often ends in disaster and the devil smirks at another one caught in his net.

    We all make dozens of choices every day. We can either choose “cool” or “holy.” And I think this is where some of the adulterous, money-grubbing pastors make their mistake: they choose “cool” over “holy.” If you are a pastor and you decide to do something because it is cool instead of holy, you have taken the first step on a path that can lead to disgrace, like TT and the rest of the bunch.

    A cool pastor might be tempted by the flattery of women and the lure of riches. A cool teenager just might end up in their front yard jumping up and down and screaming the F word at the neighbors.

  15. Xenia says:

    Since 90% are believers Greg actually makes believers doubt their salvation and that is why 90% of the people on the field are rrcommitments<<<

    Oh yes.

  16. Michael says:

    They are saying 28,000 in attendance and 2353 “commitments”.

    Ok…

  17. Xenia says:

    Orthodoxy doesn’t attempt to attract converts by referencing popular TV, film and music. We figure people are sick of themselves and sick of the world and want something Completely Different.

    Again, holy vs cool.

  18. Michael says:

    Xenia,

    I think the Orthodox are on to something… 🙂

  19. Em says:

    Xenia, reading your #15… and thinking as i read… cool pastors may be guilty of sending a subliminal message to the youth, enforcing the drive to be cool and not all will find their way back and they’d do well to stop and think… and, if they can’t think about anything but their cool selves, just stop

    Mark 9:42

    agreeing with you wholeheartedly, it is time to drop the cool and get real – God is most definitely not cool… He is, however, as real as real can be

  20. Em says:

    sigh.. i need an editor… #20 – the ones who’d “do well to stop and think” are the pastors, there aren’t too many kids capable of discernment or at least don’t know how to tap into that skill yet

  21. Michael says:

    The more I think about it, the more I concur with Xenia.

    I’m in the midst of an investigation about a very well known Christian…big star.
    The deeper we dig, the more we find that this guy is just a scoundrel of biblical proportions.

    He has the cool appearance, the cool theology, the cool friends…and he may be as lost as the devil himself.

    Biblical characters, especially the prophets…weren’t cool.

  22. Xenia says:

    I’ve given the cool vs holy thing a lot of thought over the years.

    Coolness is self-centered. It says “Look at me, I’ve got that certain something and I know you all want to have it, too.” Or it says “Look at that guy, He’s got that certain something and I want it, too.” It is human-centered. A cool pastor is subliminally saying, as Em pointed out, that coolness is a virtue. You have churches that are completely swallowed up by the vice of coolness but think it is a virtue. Coolness is fleeting and its pursuit is soul-destroying.

    Holiness is completely God-centered.

  23. Michael says:

    Xenia,

    # 23 is gold…

  24. Xenia says:

    Since coolness is so self-centered, a person in the thralls of coolness will develope a big ego and with that ego comes a sense of entitlement. The world’s his oyster, he imagines.

  25. Em says:

    maybe the Mad Men were not all on Madison Avenue…

    and while i’d hope we all have a few good days, feeling competent at least…

    i’m beginning to think back over the celebrity pastors of the last half century and i see a conga line of men singing to themselves: “…..I’m too sexy for my [$300] shirt Too sexy for my shirt …..”

  26. Alex says:

    The Gospel was never about putting a Cult-of-Personality rich celebrity on stage with a good show and a weak Self-Help Tony Robbins message out to the Already-Churched “backsliders” who walk forward b/c it feels good.

    Greg Laurie is one of many epitomes of what is wrong with modern day Evangelicalism.

    It is as fake and useless as plastic tits on a mechanical bull.

  27. Em says:

    well, i’m willing to cut some of these fellas some slack – but they are waay far off message as concerns life in Christ and that is one scary place for a pastor to be…

    REPENT while there’s still grace – go sit and listen to the likes of Packer, if there are any of the likes of him still out there… might try that little church down the street, sneak in the back, take a seat and open your ears

  28. As I said either yesterday or the day before, I like Greg Laurie as I think he does a good work, at least more good than harm (hey look, he kept 28,000 crazy Christians of the street last night). And I am sure he will get a “good and faithful servant” call from God in the end. I also think he is a pastor who has remained above reproach all of these years.

    My differences are purely theological and a good amount has to do with the appeal to come forward – the repeated and repeated appeal. I think it would be most effective if he just said, “that’s all folks – you have now heard the story, go home and think about what you heard … Good night”. If he wants to be relevant to today, he could turn around, drop the mic on the stage and walk off, and let the Holy Spirit deal with these people – not 15 choruses of Cysrtal Lewis singing “Come Just As You Are”

  29. The Orange County Register hi lited the theological problem,

    “The basic format of the crusade has stayed the same over the past 25 years. Contemporary Christian music prepares the crowd for a sermon by Laurie, who ends his address by asking nonbelievers to make a decision to follow Christ. Laurie sometimes brings well-known Christians.”

    I ask and anyone can chime in – how the heck can an unbeliever make a decision to follow Christ?

  30. SJ says:

    So minus a 500k salary, $300 shirts and a Harley, since inception, Harvest has shepherded 6.9 million souls to Christ (reportedly). Wack half or more due to funny numbers or recommitments and it is still a good thing.

    Jim Carey was there last night. Though that funny !

  31. Bob says:

    MLD

    Only believer’s would come forward (not unbelievers).

  32. passin throgh says:

    Why does it seem like all Southern Baptist preachers are named Jimmy? Especially the ones who philander?

    http://www.rawstory.com/2015/08/baptist-college-presidents-affair-revealed-in-shocking-video-shot-by-his-son/

  33. Alex says:

    “I also think he is a pastor who has remained above reproach all of these years.”

    Being greedy and selling the Gospel for profit and fame is not “above reproach”…in fact it’s probably worse than what Bob Coy did. Oh wait, Bob Coy did that, too.

  34. David H says:

    I’ve been to several Harvest Crusades. After the first couple, I got weary of the same shtick. Harvest Praise Band, popular “Christian” band of some sort – maybe two, pray, pop culture message with if you don’t get saved here your fried, after all you might die tonight. Laurie finally lost me when he had Phil Robertson, of Duck Dynasty fame, as a guest. Ol’ Phil said some off color stuff in his Louisiana drawl, and I was done.

    The way people drive leaving the stadium most must be convinced they’re saved, and need to die now. Add to that pedestrians wandering around in the dark.

    Most of the folks that walk down to the field are “counselors, and follow up staff,” and burned down backsliders.

    The whole thing really boils down to a giant church service, with tithing and everything. And you can buy a cheesy tee shirt that will shrink to the size for a small child, and other tchotchkes in the name of Harvest – key chains, Harvest books, Harvest music. etc.

  35. Jonnyb says:

    How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed?

    And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard?

    And how shall they hear without a preacher?

    Romans 10:14

  36. Jonnyb says:

    Nothing will more effectually preserve us in a straight and undeviating course, than a firm persuasion that all events are in the hand of God, and that he is as merciful as he is mighty.”

    Calvin

  37. Bob,
    “Only believer’s would come forward (not unbelievers).”
    Bob, I agree and that’s my point – why do believers need to come forward? The statement is always, something to the effect “if you want to know this Jesus, if you want your sins forgiven and if you want to be on the path to a better life, come, come stand here at the foot of the stage and we will pray for you.

    Why do that with Believers – and then after the prayer say “If you said this prayer and meant it, I would like to welcome you to the family.” Didn’t they already know Christ, already had their sin forgiven and were already made a member of the family before they even got out of their seats?

  38. Alex,
    “Being greedy and selling the Gospel for profit and fame is not “above reproach”…

    Well let’s look at this weekend closely – do you think that Greg covered his nut based on what it costs to rent the stadium for 3 nights?

    The fact that people make money does not translate to greed.

  39. Alex says:

    MLD, Greg uses that event to build his Brand. It’s how he got famous, how he sells books, how he packs them in at his Franchise.

    You are being intellectually dishonest if you think Greg Laurie isn’t human and isn’t intentional in building his personal Brand…and for what?

    If it wasn’t for Profit and Fame…then he wouldn’t take money and wouldn’t do it the way he does it.

  40. Alex says:

    I know humans, I know human nature.

    You believe in a myth. The Greg Laurie’s rely on your own personal lack of Conscience to explain away the fact they are intentionally building a Personal Brand that profits them tremendously.

  41. Alex says:

    Then the Greg Laurie’s are esteemed as Gurus and the guys to listen to and to aspire to by the many smaller no-name pastors that attend the CC pastor’s conferences…when nothing could be further from the truth.

    The little guys who don’t make money and aren’t famous yet do the real work of Ministry are like Jesus and are Servants of All.

    The Greg Lauries’ are a blight on Christianity and an offense to the true Gospel.

  42. Alex says:

    “DO NOT emulate the World”

    “To be greatest be the least”

    “Be the Servant of All”

    “Do not peddle the Gospel for profit”

    You little unknown pastors out there…YOU are my heroes and YOU are the ones the Greg Laurie’s should emulate.

    Don’t fall for the devil’s lie that to be “specially anointed” and to be “successful for Jesus!” you have to be a celebrity profiteer like the Greg Laurie’s of today’s Evangelicalism.

    Don’t be Greg Laurie. Be Michael Newnham and others like him. THAT is the true Gospel and the true example of Servanthood.

    If you REALLY believe the stuff in the bible and the example of Jesus…your Conscience should be able to know this as truth.

    if your Conscience doesn’t know this…I would do some soul searching and I would be very concerned about your ability to discern right from wrong. You have bought into a Big Lie.

  43. Alex says:

    That is what the Spirit of God has spoken to my heart (to use churchy Christianese so some will understand the dynamic).

    For non-church folks…that’s what my Conscience and Mind/Reason/Intellect inform me of. It’s clear as day to me.

  44. Jesus had plenty of money. His operation support 100 people. OR, using your logic (or lack thereof) I could make a case that Jesus was a freeloader, going around giving talks and expecting people to give him money, put him up for the night, feed him.

    If Greg Laurie is building his brand why are there at least 30 different (non CC churches) participating – dividing up the “commitment cards evenly. Why doesn’t Greg just do it himself and keep it all to himself?

    You can be angry all you want and attempt to drag down who you want – but it is you who will pay the price.

  45. Michael says:

    I don’t know if he covered his expenses or not.
    These are incredibly expensive to produce.

    I didn’t watch it last night as the whole thing annoys me.

    I think we need to be clear about what we’re watching.
    This is traditional American Christian entertainment that goes all the back to Whitfield and through Billy Sunday to Billy Graham to Greg.

    I am great friends with a woman who was present when Aimee McPherson was doing similar things in Southern California.
    She’s not a Christian, but she can talk for hours about the events.

    They may be of some spiritual benefit, but that is impossible to measure.

    I’m sure that some hear the Gospel and respond, but they could have heard it in a local church and responded as well.
    I just wonder how they will fit into the local church when there aren’t rock bands and a light show before the sermon.
    Maybe they won’t have to adjust, on second thought…

  46. Scott says:

    Off the subject a little, but I still can’t get over how Jesus allowed Judas Escariot to be the treasurer of his non-profit:

    John 12:6

  47. Scott says:

    Now that I think about it, the preceding verse John 12:5 reminds me of our modern day politicians.

    I have to remind myself that everything most of them do is not because they really “care”, it’s because they have an ulterior motive that is usually motivated by money, position or power.

  48. Bob says:

    MLD:

    “why do believers need to come forward?”

    We agree they don’t, but general repentance is another thing. The text does indicate it has to be done openly and with a voice (I think that includes any form of open communication) so that others may hear it if need be.

    “If we confess with our mouth…”

    Sadly many think a confession in our head to God is enough, well maybe if the sin is only against God. Too often we sin not just against God but someone else and a personal confession of that sin is a part of change (repentance).

    With Yom Kippur at the door, to this day a Jew doesn’t believe forgiveness comes without communicating a confession and asking forgiveness for the sin of the one whom was sinned against. What’s changed for followers of Jesus is every day is a “Yom Kippur” or atoning day (see your study of Hebrews); so maybe we should continuously be asking forgiveness of God and others?

    So should a believer come forward?

    Answer; every day (24/7)!

  49. “So should a believer come forward?”

    Well then you may be in my camp a little – that just believing that Jesus us your savior is not enough. Since you bring up public repentance as being a part, perhaps you believe the other half of that verse – the 2 together for salvation ““Repent AND be baptized,” Perhaps Greg should be dunking at that moment also. 😉

  50. Em says:

    #46 – “I am great friends with a woman who was present when Aimee McPherson was doing similar things in Southern California.”
    was she there at Angeles Temple in 1939 when Aimee was using the Andrews Sisters’ hit song, “Three Little Fishies” for her sermon topic? …they swam and they swam all over the dam… and some little 3 year old brat in the balcony yelled out in shock, “Oh! She said a bad word; you’re not supposed to say that!?” that was me … Aimee stopped her sermon (the whole audience was laughing) and when things were quiet again, i got a lecture on the difference between dam and damn from the pulpit or whatever it was … i knew from a very young age that this lady was a phony

  51. Em says:

    i think ‘going forward’ is a wonderful idea – get up off of your pew and walk down to the front and declare that Jesus is Savior and you need saving …
    the act won’t save you, but it is a wonderful way to make us average, silent majority types publicly confess

    now, if you’re inviting people to come forward to follow Jesus? that just doesn’t make any kind of sense at all … when you get up front there, where is Jesus?

  52. Bob says:

    MLD:

    … be baptized.

    Actually the Jewish people who wrote that actually did such a thing. Baptism wasn’t just a on time event to say they were saved. It was a cleansing ritual which included repentance and was done repeatedly.

    Now have I been officially “baptized” more than once? No, but it’s probably not a bad idea.

    Just think of the church service we could have.

    Oh, and yes I think Greg could do such a thing, it’s just not probably in his radar. You know when one has established a routine, why break it.

  53. Bob says:

    That’s “one time event” however it was also “on time.”

    😉

  54. Bob says:

    I want to comment as say this about these “events.”

    I don’t think they are a bad thing, but to hold up “salvation” numbers is just a lot of bunk. The proof is in how these people (me included) live a “saved ” life, not if they came forward and said a stock prayer.

    I also think they are good for regular old “believers” in Jesus. They remind us of the importance to actually let people know about Jesus and God’s Grace. Are they a “good” value for the money? Maybe, but I have of measuring such things.

    I for one think Aime was a 95% fraud and yet here is a testimony of God working in the life of a person who was there. Yep God even uses the frauds to speak to His people (and that’s biblical).

  55. Bob says:

    I must be tired:

    I want to comment and say…

    Maybe, but I have no way of measuring such things.

    MLD, yes we are probably on the same side on some things.

    Good night!

  56. Bob,
    “Actually the Jewish people who wrote that actually did such a thing. ”

    If you are speaking of those who wrote the New Testament – those were all baptized Christians. 🙂

  57. Tim Challies is usually wrong, but this time he is 100% wrong

    http://www.challies.com/articles/why-you-should-not-wear-a-crucifix

    He needs to read his Bible closer about images in church.

  58. Michael says:

    Tim Challies will usually be right when all he does is quote J.I. Packer…who I quoted saying the same a week or so ago.

    There is a new book coming out shortly showing that the cross was extensively used as a Christian symbol long before Constantine…

  59. Jonnyb says:

    If you confess Me before man, I will confess you before the Father.

  60. Jonnyb says:

    Finney endorsed the activity.

  61. Michael,
    My point was Challies saying you can’t have images in church. This is ridiculous. Right after giving that commandment, God spoke to the general contractor for the tabernacle and gave detailed instructions on how to design certain graven images. If I remember correctly there are some on the ark of the covenant.

    The admonition is against worshiping such images. My church has stained glass windows that tell the story of the 12 apostles through images – I have yet to see anyone bow before them or or kiss them.

  62. If the purpose in having the people come down on the field is to have them confess Christ publicly why don’t they have the whole stadium do it. Are old fart Christians not suppose to publicly confess Christ also?

  63. Em says:

    well, i think the original purpose of leaving your seat and coming to the front of the meeting was to declare your Faith in Christ for the FIRST time in your life …

    but if you want to have an event where everyone who is redeemed comes on down to front for some reason, go ahead, might be some logistical problems with that and it makes as much sense to me as these repeat wedding ceremonies that have been so popular: middle aged ladies getting all dolled up and standing their man up in front of the minister to reaffirm his vows 🙂

  64. Babylon's Dread says:

    Everything you are whining about is true and people still find resurrection life.

    Revivalism lives in this routinized form.

    God rides a lame horse … because he can.

  65. Babylon's Dread says:

    I do not know or understand
    What God has willed what God has planned
    I only know at his right hand
    Stands one who is my Savior.

  66. Babs,
    “Everything you are whining about is true and people still find resurrection life.”

    If that was directed at me, that’s fine. My only issue is the 25 yrs of switch and bait. I am sure the numbers will bare me out (I worked 3 years under the right field seats working followup to the crusades) but 8 of 10 commitments are recommitments. Why is the system fraught with insecurity and no way out?

    I know the answer but folks don’t want to hear it.

  67. Babylon's Dread says:

    MLD,

    I NEVER do crusade evangelism myself …

    I am just saying that all this hoohaa about it is useless…

    I still meet people who got their lives changed in such meetings…

    Efficient? No, Theologically sound? No Messy? Yes… and God still finds his children.

    Michael is right the critics have fussed about the methodology all the way back to the Great Awakening… nevertheless …

    I am always amused that God uses both Calvinists and Arminians … irrespective of our studied differences.

    God is good … he is better than all of us

  68. Scott says:

    Babylon’s Dread, I know your interested in all things Jesus People Movement these days, here’s an interesting and very sad piece on the Jesus People Movement USA. You’re probably already familiar with this story and documentary, however, perhaps not:

    http://www.buzzfeed.com/jessehyde/bringing-down-americas-happiest-christian-cult-842#.kwG397X0jP

  69. Babylon's Dread says:

    Thanks Scott

    I indeed read this piece today actually… very painful. We all know the cultic aspects of revival are always there and never have good outcomes… this is among the worst.

  70. meme says:

    I indeed read this piece today actually… very painful. We all know the cultic aspects of revival are always there and never have good outcomes… this is among the worst.

    AND OBVIOUSLY CC IS NOT EXEMPT!

  71. Jonnyb says:

    One on one evangelism has a much higher retention of Christian converts.

    I read that only 2% of responders at Billy and Greg crusades will actually go forward and live Christian lives.

    Disciples need one on one care in a relationship with other Christians.

    The bulk of the Jesus People disciples got this one on one nurturing.

    The filling out of commitment cards and being contacted by a local church is not as effective as being lead to the Lord in a one on one relationship.

    I was taught by Lonnie Frisbee that if you lead someone to Christ you make a commitment to disciple them.

    (Sort of like being a “sponsor ” in AA.)

    Which results in much higher numbers of people who live their lives for Christ than the fruit of crusades.

  72. Jonnyb says:

    So how did you come to Christ?

    What happened that helped you to become Christian?

    Did you just decide one day on your own to be Christian?

    Was there some Christians who were dedicated to evangelize you that you responded to?

    Then of course the next set of questions would be…

    How do you regard the Bible?

    What role does the Bible play in your Christian experience?

    Is the Bible a guide to live the Christian life?

    Does the Bible even factor into your Christian experience?

    What did Jesus mean when he said, “Peter, feed My sheep?”

  73. Babylon's Dread says:

    meme

    Let me clarify. When revivals happen historically cultic groups arise. Those groups tend to be controlling of people’s lives. The sad thing about the JPUSA is that their name implies they were the movement. They were not.

    I am a product of the Jesus Movement but I never heard of it until many years later. Why? Because it was a move of the Holy Spirit more than a human effort.

    As for CC they were at the very heart of the movement. I have never been part of a CC. I do not consider them to have been cultic. They exercised a low level of control over people IMO but a high level of influence.

    As for all of this discussion I just thank God when Jesus is preached. Greg Laurie would be low on my list of people to criticize for preaching Jesus.

    15 Some indeed preach Christ from envy and rivalry, but others from good will. 16 The latter do it out of love, knowing that I am put here for the defense of the gospel. 17 The former proclaim Christ out of selfish ambition, not sincerely but thinking to afflict me in my imprisonment. 18 What then? Only that in every way, whether in pretense or in truth, Christ is proclaimed, and in that I rejoice.

    The Holy Bible: English Standard Version (Wheaton: Standard Bible Society, 2001), Php 1:15–18.

  74. Bob says:

    Yes it probably be a good idea for all who believe to come forward publicly.

    The article on the cult should not be associated with the Harvest event of this thread. Making that connection is dangerous and as Alex often say, dishonest.

    There are always predators looking for or needing a trigger allowing them to do their dirty deeds.

  75. Well, since most evangelical churches refuse (not just overlook) reciting the creeds in the church service, the best you get at Christians publicly confessing their faith is at the Harvest Crusades before the formal beginning when the chant goes out from one section of the stadium

    “We love Jesus yes we do, we love Jesus how about you?” and the other section of the stadium repeats back even louder – “We love Jesus yes we do, we love Jesus how about you?”

    And it goes back and forth. Another example of the evangelical liturgy. 😉

  76. I agree with Bob about the Jesus People article. These are not the Jesus People of the 60s and 70s other than the name – these are burned out losers who think they still make a difference.

  77. Jim Jacobson says:

    I appreciate what Greg does. I think he sincerely wants to see people put faith in Christ. If someone wants to disagree with his motives, well I guess you can do that, but I hope that you are at least “doing it better”, and not just throwing stones. For everyone who questions his motives, what gives you the right to question another’s motives?
    “… in every way, whether in pretense or in truth, Christ is proclaimed; and in this I rejoice.”-Philippians 1:18

  78. Scott says:

    Bob, fyi, I submitted the link to the article on JPUSA for BD because I know he is working on a thesis of the Jesus People Movement in general.

    This thread is an “OPEN BLOGGING” thread and not limited to just the Harvest “Crusades” and Greg Laurie per se.

    However, if anyone thinks that the CC movement or the myriad of other adjunct groups that surfaced during those days, wasn’t influenced by JPUSA, well…

  79. Pastor Al says:

    I am very excited to announce that I am now an official Calvary Chapel Affiliate/Associate Pastor!

    I started an online Calvary Chapel. I am SO BLESSED!

    From now on, I want you to address me as Pastor Al.

    https://www.facebook.com/pages/Calvary-Chapel-Social-Media-Church/972590209466737?ref=hl

  80. Bob says:

    Scott:

    I’m not sure who said this, “It’s the little things in life that are important; everything is a little thing.”

    There is also a game about the media called, “Six degrees of Kevin Bacon” and is based on the idea that any two people are just six or fewer acquaintances apart. So it could be said CC and all “movements” of the day are tied to JPUSA in some form or another.

    My point is it really doesn’t matter these people say they are a part of the Jesus Movement or not. The evil which surfaced in that group would have risen regardless of their stated affiliations. Religion and Jesus are not the root of the problems they are simply a tool used by them to eventually accomplish their goals.

    While it seemed in the beginning their (JPUSA) intentions were pure In the end the men and women who started the JPUSA used Jesus to dominate, control and abuse others. Sadly this isn’t limited to strange “counter-culture” sects.

    I found the link interesting though in a one way, how a man was sexually affected by the destruction of family and encounters as a developing youth.

  81. Xenia says:

    Let God arise and let His enemies be scattered, and let them that hate Him flee from before His face. As smoke vanisheth, so let them vanish; as wax melteth before the fire, so let the demons perish from the presence of them that love God …

  82. Pastor Al says:

    X, AMEN!

    …but there goes a big chunk of the pastorate in evangelicalism

  83. Em says:

    “I do not know or understand
    What God has willed what God has planned
    I only know at his right hand
    Stands one who is my Savior.”

    And oh that He may see
    The travail of His soul in me
    And with His work contented be
    As I with my dear Savior

    thanks BD for reminding me of this dear hymn and time in my own life

  84. Pastor Al says:

    I hereby rebuke the Greg Laurie’s and other money-grubbing celebrity pastors in the name of the Lord Jesus…and more specifically the Lord Baby Jesus. Why Baby Jesus? Because Baby Jesus was so cute in his little swaddling clothes and if you’re going to call down God’s Wrath on someone…what a burn to have it be a Baby that does the smiting.

  85. Pastor Al says:

    Smoting?

    Seriously, I get that one wrong all the time.

    Is it Smiting or Smoting?

    X, help me out here.

  86. Josh the Baptist says:

    Pastor Al, considering the circumstances, I think this is a really bad idea.

  87. Pastor Al says:

    Josh, the circumstances are what they are.

    It doesn’t change my mission to educate folks about the good, bad and ugly of “church” and “pastors”

    This is just another effort in that regard.

  88. Pastor Al says:

    The other situation will be dealt with in a Court of Law and before a Jury.

    I will continue to use my talents to unconventionally educate and inform people about the dangers (and some virtues) of “church” and “pastors” and Calvary Chapel.

  89. Pastor Al says:

    If I was Greg Laurie, X would post a verse about you not judging another of God’s servants and how they do things LOL

  90. Em says:

    will we ever get over this numbers thing? perhaps the folk who like to hold up David as the ultimate example of a man pleasing to God will remember that he was told not to take a census – dunno why, maybe a theologian here can remind me…

    i do know that Young Life was big in my town in my high school days and their follow up was something they called, if i remember correctly, Campaigners (?) – my point being scores of kids sat on living room floors singing songs of dedication and praise and listening to the salvation talk every single week – but Campaigners (drawn from several surrounding cities) met on Sunday afternoon and the turnout (by invitation on declaration of Faith, i believe) was a very small
    percentage (maybe even single digit)… but the meetings went on and i know the souls of many mushy skulled teenagers were salvaged back then

  91. Pastor Al says:

    Careful in your criticism…or I WILL call down the emoting of Baby Jesus on your arse.

    Just sayin’

  92. Pastor Al says:

    emoting, really Autocorrect Satan?

    SMOTING!!!!!!!!!

  93. Em says:

    #84 – And oh, that He may see the travail of His soul FULFILLED in me… sorry bout that

    and i think i did learn the song “I am not skilled to understand what God hath willed…” just rabbit trailing, remembering…

    no hay importante

  94. Em says:

    FWIW – i came to Christ within the Presbyterian Church and, of course, had to attend membership classes for i can’t remember how long… those classes did nothing to edify my soul (that i was aware of), nor did my friends who were Christians – their one on one was rather innocuous and platitudinous… but the Campaigners, using Navigator material, put a little backbone in my new life… gave me a frame of reference and a mind to search and grow… i wonder what would have happened to my “fixation” on Christ, if i had just been left a statistic, another name on the church role… the pastor was an excellent teacher (Dr. Clarence Kerr), but i needed baby food

  95. Scott says:

    The article I linked had an interesting caveat. The ECC which is a covering for the JPUSA group is claiming that each group under their umbrella is “autonomous”, and as such, they have no control or legal responsibility whatsoever with JPUSA.

    Where have we heard that before?

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