The Weekend Word

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71 Responses

  1. Owen says:

    Michael, this book is still one of my faves. I first read it almost 30 years ago, and I still find wisdom (and correction) in it now. Haven’t agreed with all of it, still wrestle with some of it. But it still impacts me .

    The section you quoted is one that I still wrestle with sometimes, actually. Not that I disagree with his premise, exactly, it’s more that I’m still understanding it. The church I was attending when I first read this book was singing the praises of ecumenism as “the thing to follow at all costs”, and one of the costs was sound doctrine (at least, it seemed that way to me.) I’m still burned.

  2. Michael says:

    Owen,

    I hear you.
    We’re all going to have differences in what we consider “sound doctrine”.

    There are those who insist that you have false doctrine if you don’t believe in their eschatology, while I think eschatology is a tertiary doctrine.
    We have seen the disputes here over the Eucharist and baptism.

    I have to engage others with humility …I think I’m right, but I might not be…

    So much of what sect we join has to do with our individual personalities…Anglicanism fits me like a warm coat in winter…but doesn’t fit others at all.
    I’m ok with that…

  3. Jean says:

    “So much of what sect we join has to do with our individual personalities…Anglicanism fits me like a warm coat in winter…but doesn’t fit others at all.”

    This is what Lewis cautions against. The criteria he commends is:

    “Are these doctrines true: Is holiness here? Does my conscience move me towards this?”

  4. Michael says:

    I can affirm those criteria in many different sects…

  5. Michael says:

    We have people here that have found homes in Eastern Orthodoxy, Lutheranism, Anglicanism, Reformed churches, evangelicalism, and more.

    I have no doubt that they are exactly where God intended them to be.

  6. Michael says:

    For me, I had to come to grips with the fact that for 1500 years there was basically one church with Eastern and Western expressions.

    The church didn’t begin with Luther and Calvin.

    It really didn’t begin with Chuck Smith or Aimee McPherson.

    Still, God has used and blessed all manner of churches at times and at times they all fulfill Lewis’s criteria.

    What makes us choose one over another?

    Good question…

  7. JD says:

    Let’s just say that he probably wouldn’t include this one.
    http://coachellavalley.church/

  8. descended says:

    They sound very ecumenical 🙂

  9. The New Victor says:

    Rastafarian Cannabis church? Oh vey… I wonder when new members find out Rastafarianism believes that Haile Selassie was the second coming of Christ?

  10. dusty says:

    What a great idea! I hope to learn a lot from this.

  11. dusty says:

    Well done Michael! I think i am in the process (still)of changing rooms. Some days i feel i am in t&he hall.

  12. dusty says:

    JD, that is some church. Lol

  13. dusty says:

    I’ve tried to read it a couple of times and it was over my head…hope i can follow along here.

  14. John 20:29 says:

    Remember one thing – all those rooms have doors to the outside, so one can be just as likley to enter the Church thru one of those rooms … that hall is a center hall

    or so it seems to me… 😇

  15. Michael says:

    Dusty, you’ll be fine…

  16. Captain Kevin says:

    A Bible-believing, Rastafarian, cannabis church. Umm…no!!!

  17. Jim Vander Spek says:

    “For me, I had to come to grips with the fact that for 1500 years there was basically one church with Eastern and Western expressions.”

    I held a similar view of the history of Christianity until I read Phillip Jenkin’s outstanding book with a really long title: The Lost History of Christianity: The Thousand-Year Golden Age of the Church in the Middle East, Africa, and Asia–and How It Died

    https://www.amazon.com/Lost-History-Christianity-Thousand-Year-Asia/dp/0061472816

    It made me wonder what God has in store for the Western and Eastern Churches and what he may raise in their places.

  18. John 20:29 says:

    some of us have had the impression, perhaps, that the world was ignorant of the gospel and it was incumbent upon the western world to take the gospel to the whole world = our missionary focus of recent past…
    I’ve heard rumors, possibly spawned by the book linked at #17, of an ancient pocket of Christianity along the Chinese border (must get that book)…
    we’ve tended to put Christianity’s progress on a time-line of our own construct, going from Israel, building and spreading uniformly along that line … God doesn’t work that way come to think of it, so… what does God have in store for us now indeed?
    the western world thinks it is smart and progressive when, in fact, it has been nurtured by the Christian faith and God’s protection… I sense now a strong desire in the human race to pervert or destroy this Faith… blaming it for holding back progress…. ? …. hmmm

    we’re promised a look at Revelation thru the eyes of the Lutherans soon – all to be interpreted as symbol and metaphor? we do need to understand or at least be familiar with the book’s content… these sure look like “perilous times to me” … dunno

  19. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Em, it’s not through the eyes of the Lutherans at all, although Lutherans do hold this view. It is however the view of the historic church throughout time and is still held today by probably at least 75 – 80% of worldwide Christians.
    Stay tuned to find out why.. 🙂

  20. John 20:29 says:

    well …… i stand corrected, MLD
    make that thru the eyes of A Lutheran…
    you will make the case for the interpretation of the book held by “75 – 80 % of worldwide Christians.” … okay … interpretation set back when the earth was flat? 🙂

    i’m comfortable in my minority … even during my teen years when one is supposed to want to be part of the crowd, i didn’t …
    i’m not a scholar, so i only have the option of choosing my teachers from among the scholars God has gifted to instruct … i will do my best to not disrupt your class with inane and uninformed opinions from the safety and comfort of my pew … that said, Revelation does not – IMO – lend itself well to debate anyway, yet everyone who claims to follow Christ should be familiar with the contents of the book as, since, the ascension of our Lord, the Church has been wondering if “today could be THE DAY”
    have we focused too much on the great climactic event described in Matt 24 (what an event! ) and not enough on the letters to the churches that are designed to stabilize the churches down thru time? it looks like it today – or so it seems to me

  21. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Em, for one who does not think it is worth debating, you are debating it before we even begin.
    Hang in there, once you here what I have to say, you will be agreeing with me on Rach point.

  22. John 20:29 says:

    MLD, to loosely quote my youngest daughter when she was a child: I’m not debating; I’m just talking about how it is… 😇

    From here there’ll be no attempt to debate your teaching series on Revelation…
    might quote a teacher or two, tho… Dunno. LOL. … then again, maybe not…

  23. John 20:29 says:

    Read on a website called campus reform that a city I prof named j Daniels claims that “the white nuclear family is one of the most powerful forces supporting white supremacy” and a “key perpetrator of racism” – seems she is calling for the end of “white nuclear families” for the good of civilization … say what????
    Calling good evil and evil good? A study of Revelation is timely indeed – even if it is taught from a “traditional” viewpoint

  24. John 20:29 says:

    Okay, I corrected that spell check “I” and this evil tablet put it back … grrr
    city U not. City I ….

  25. dusty says:

    I like this room (PP)! 🙂

  26. dusty says:

    John 20:29 you make me smile.

  27. John 20:29 says:

    Dusty, you make us all smile… 😊

    Oh and MLD @ 21 … “worth debate” is not the best approach anyway… But worth study is. … IMNSHO … debate will bog down and get us polarized again

  28. Pastor Lew Phelps says:

    I personally think you guys should listen to some Chuck Smith teaching through the Bible. It’s a two edged sword, old and new testaments. It’s amazing how they compliment each other and bring us the truth that sets us free! “The Word of God endureth forever”

    Spurgeon said,
    “The Bible isn’t ancient, nor is it modern … it is ETERNAL!”

    Blessings to my Friends, PLP

  29. Michael says:

    I would rather listen to my cat vomit…

  30. Pastor Lew Phelps says:

    Your cat must not get fed well either! But there will be cats in heaven … that’s how God is going to string all those harps. or would that be a CATastrophy? CATapolts were invented for a reason. Perhaps Noah forgot about that one species that wasn’t suppose to come on the ARK. (which would have included skunks). But then who is perfect? 🙂 At least Noah was PRE-FLOOD! He wasn’t mid-flood or post-flood! If he had been anything but PRE-FLOOD we’d all be up the crick without a paddle. Peter called Noah a preacher of righteousness. That tells us that Noah gave the first “water down message!” His wife “Joan” was “all in” when the weather got bad. He and his family were spared from GLOBAL JUDGEMENT. They rose from the earth to above the mountains. Soon those that trust in Him now will be taken from the earth to the clouds in a moment, the twinkling of an eye just before global judgment comes again! It must then be important that we watch and be ready.
    Christmas Blessings, PLP

    “Accept Him with your whole heart. And use your own two hands. With one reach out to Jesus. And with the other … bring a friend” Love Song – Jesus Movement

  31. Michael says:

    You’re about to be raptured from this site…

  32. Pastor Lew Phelps says:

    Michael. It’s amazing that I’ve been on this site this long. Yet I consider you all my friends. We may not see eye to eye on everything, but the debate is healthy. It could be that many of your viewers enjoy the discussions. It’s not like things haven’t been thrown back at me too. But I accepted it in the spirit of love. I’d love to stay on and chat, but if I’m not welcome then there’s plenty to be done. It’s easy chatting with those you agree with. Yet when confronted … your up and ready to erase me. Perhaps others enjoy the friendly back and forth. By the way … I’m not Lew Phelps … I’m Regis

    All My Best,
    Regis Filbin

  33. Michael says:

    Phelps,

    You haven’t confronted me…you’re not even capable of such.
    What you are is a shill for one of the Smith family with a past of your own.

    The only comment I’ve received from my readers is that you possibly could be helped by medication.

    As it annoys me too much to read your nonsense, you are gone.

  34. Jean says:

    “Yet I consider you all my friends. We may not see eye to eye on everything, but the debate is healthy.”

    I don’t really find any debate or discussion in Phelps’ comments. Only trolling and mocking. That’s not a healthy combination for anyone.

  35. Nathan Priddis says:

    I no longer know what to make of Chuck Smith. There were quite a number of his sermons I listened to. But looking back, I wasn’t really that excited about them. Even started tuning him out.
    Circa 2000, the radio offerings of Calvary Chapel Distintives bothered me. His explanation of how CC was “distinct” felt like a flat note. Older now, I believe our emotions are an essential gift from God. Even when we don’t understand them.
    More recently, I have been thinking of the statement……on this rock I will build my Church. The thoughts I’ve held on the Church, as existing in my own lifetime, as well as It’s entirety, now seem in error. They seem simplistic. Something I just adopted or created to help make sense of my world.

  36. Josh the Baptist says:

    I’ve never heard even one Chuck Smith sermon.
    I have no clue who Lew Phelps is. Probably a fine guy.
    I have no desire to debate eschatology with MLD for the 4,000th time.

    I do LOVE Mere Christianity though 🙂

  37. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Josh – this is why we need to study Revelation. It is sad that the Rapture Theology crowd lost the meaning when they took Revelation from being the Gospel of the Exalted Jesus (as opposed to the Jesus in his state of humiliation on earth) to one of end times dragons chasing pregnant women across the sky. 🙂 – Lets see where we go with this when we get there.

  38. Josh the Baptist says:

    “this is why we need to study Revelation”

    Because I love Mere Christianity?!?

    Revelation without dragons and pregnant women is cutting out a lot of chapters.

  39. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Josh – the dragons and pregnant women are the backdrop, the scenery in which we see the enthroned slain lamb – not the subject matter of the text.
    But let’s wait and let the anticipation rise.

  40. Josh the Baptist says:

    No thanks 🙂

  41. John 20:29 says:

    FWIW – “Late Great Planet…” and its resulting flurry of excitement was one of the devil’s most ingenious strikes at taking our Lord’s return seriously… the Rapture (which makes sense of Scripture for me) is not our Lord’s return, BTW …

    i am in the process of reading up on Dispensations… for the life of me, i can’t see the problem with identifying the periods in the history of mankind and our Lord’s dealing with us into categories…
    we do seem to run into a problem when dividing Believers and our Lord’s dealing with them into categories and that is where and why i must spin off into the minority (according to MLD) view that conflicts with what MLD’s teaching will construct…
    “The truth taught by Jesus Christ can apply to believers of any dispensation, but there is a difference between a legitimate application from a passage of Scripture and the precise interpretation of that passage. There may be many edifying applications that greatly benefit believers in a devotional or practical way, but the objective of rigorous scholarship is a precisely accurate interpretation. Interpretation attempts to discover what the passage means. Each passage must be interpreted in its context in terms of those to whom it is addressed. ……” “The Divine Outline of History,” R. B. Thieme
    This will be what MLD presents from his scholarship and those of his teachers, i presume… i am not a scholar, i can only choose my teachers and so, lacking a drive to prove i’m right, i won’t debate MLD’s presentation on Revelation – in this case silence will not be assent, however 🙂

    may God the Holy Spirit do His work – may all come away from the coming Revelation study with a serious, intense realization that God is holy and means business, eh?

  42. Josh the Baptist says:

    But I do like Mere Christianity.

  43. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    To Em and Josh – the fact that you both preemptively refuse a discussion of any view differing from your own is not new in Rapture Theology – in fact it is required. Much like the JWs who are instructed to drop off their written materials but are forbidden from taking such from their target.
    You both will be missed.

  44. Josh the Baptist says:

    MLD – it is the fact that we have discussed it 4 billion times. We could just dig it up and link those discussions. But I do appreciate another comparison to the JW’s. You are always good for at least one of those.

  45. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    We have not discussed Jesus as the exhulted, risen slain lamb of the Revelation 4 billion times – but I am a bit saddened that if we have you are tired, bored and frustrated with such discussions.
    As I said, you will be missed.

  46. Michael says:

    “am in the process of reading up on Dispensations… for the life of me, i can’t see the problem with identifying the periods in the history of mankind and our Lord’s dealing with us into categories…”

    I have big problems with that scheme, the main one being they are man made, arbitrary, distinctions imposed on scripture.

  47. Josh the Baptist says:

    I appreciate the sentiment.

  48. Josh the Baptist says:

    @ 47 – But so is every other hermeneutical system ever devised.

  49. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Lutherans like the Church Fathers and quote from them freely in the Confessions. Modern day, the Fathers are quoted in the Treasury of Daily Prayer (CPH) and in the study notes of The Lutheran Study Bible (CPH)

  50. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    oops, wrong thread

  51. John 20:29 says:

    Michael observed regarding dispensation, “I have big problems with that scheme, the main one being they are man made, arbitrary, distinctions imposed on scripture.”

    well, one could say the same about the choices made for the canonizing of Scripture, the dividing of the Old and New Testaments, the chapters and verses, certainly… categorization can lead to discoveries and understanding

    IMV – to say that they are arbitrary (“based on random choice or personal whim, rather than any reason or system”) is just not accurate, although, admittedly my understanding and acceptance comes from was taught by the late R.B. Thieme

    i haven’t spent/wasted any time studying all the varied teachings extrapolated out there… and i won’t deny that we have our share of crackpots out here in the loosey-goosey world of evangelical Christianity 🙂

  52. Michael says:

    Em,

    If R.B. Thieme were alive today he and I would be mortal enemies.
    He was everything I loathe and have fought against for the last 16 years.
    I trust you can chew the meat and spit out the bones of his teachings, but many were aberrant to the point of heresy.
    His teachings about the office of the pastor make the Moses Model look like gold from the fathers…

  53. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    The ‘Colonel’ as RB was know was a dyed in the wool Dallas guy who preceded Hal Lindsey by10 years. He taught a straight ‘Late Great’ type eschatology. He was a tough old coot – but his congregation loved his abuse.

  54. descended says:

    Pastor Phelps could soon start posting in cutouts of magazine fonts and magazine models…

    wow.
    Just wow.

    Philbin, P-H, btw.

  55. descended says:

    Hope I never came off like that

  56. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Assuming she holds to the creeds, is there a room in the Lewis house for this Bishop?

    http://www.breitbart.com/london/2015/10/05/worlds-first-lesbian-bishop-calls-church-remove-crosses-install-muslim-prayer-space/

    I can see that she could hold to the creeds by training and still be a blasphemer.

  57. Michael says:

    descended,

    Phelps was a troll of a clan who used to be here often 10 or so years ago.

    He was raptured from the blog last night…

  58. Michael says:

    Thieme was from a standard dispy line.
    This dissertation outlines some of the concerns around him from his peers.

    http://withchrist.org/thieme_by_joe_wall.pdf

  59. Michael says:

    “Assuming she holds to the creeds, is there a room in the Lewis house for this Bishop?”

    No.

    Nor is there (or will there ever be) room for links from Breitbart on my blog.

  60. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    If I remember right, Marilyn Quayle and Kathy Lee Gifford were products of the Colonel’s church.

  61. John 20:29 says:

    re R.B.Thieme… he, like Smith had his mindless followers for whom the Colonel could do no wrong (most of those who studied under him didn’t refer to him as the ‘Colonel’ BTW)… the congregation that made up his Berachah church was a mixed bag… lots of military found and followed the Lord thru the man’s ministry

    yes, he did teach that the pastor was the one in charge of the church …
    yes, he was a product of Dallas Theological Seminary in most of his teaching …
    yes, Hal Lindsey did take his material from Thieme … but…
    Thieme did not approve of Lindsey’s use of it, or the exploitation and sensationalism that Lindsey went on to make of it…
    yes, he was tough from the pulpit, “sit down, shut up and listen” – he was a product of his military background – was in charge of Luke Field, training air cadets in WW2 and he never really shed his military viewpoint
    but he did conduct himself pretty much as an “officer and a gentleman” out of the pulpit, did not expect adulation or obeisance from anyone (well, his wife Betty maybe – i think that the man was a bit of a chauvinist) …

    The Bible Answer man misrepresented his teaching to the point of lying – yes, i have the documentation, but it is in storage along with most of my worldly goods … no i wasn’t a big fan of Walter Martin’s radio program, but i have his Kingdom of the Cults – it has value

    one could not sit in on a class and come away with any understanding of what he taught… understanding gained from Thieme’s style of teaching, his charting etc. required time…
    yes, in spite of John the Baptist leaping in his mother’s womb, he did teach that the soul did not occupy the fetus until drawing its first breath at birth… yes, that’s handy if you want to support abortion and not good from that aspect…
    was he always correct? no

    yes, i have sat in his classes …. am i a Thieme “groupie?” no… do i second everything the man taught? no, but his teaching in the main, though unorthodox in style, was very acceptable and not what i’d describe as aberrant Christianity – aberrant from the evangelicalism of the day, perhaps…

    That most here would find him offensive is to be expected. He was in his time despised by most of church world, i’ve seen more than one walk out of a teaching session
    However, i consider him one of God’s gifts to my understanding of the Faith and, while i don’t consider him – or any other man – the final word on the Faith, anytime i make a pew observation here, it’s pretty apt to be colored by what i learned from him…

    sooo? be careful when this pew sitter pontificates – beware of heresies 🙂

  62. Jean says:

    MLD,

    Please don’t publish your first article on Revelation until all the eyes are plucked out and the wax that is being poured into the ear canals of the noble Bereans has fully hardened.

    As for the rest of us, I am waiting in eager expectation to read your commentary.

  63. Josh the Baptist says:

    Apparently nobody like Mere Christianity.

  64. Josh the Baptist says:

    MLD,

    Please don’t publish your first article on Revelation until Jean’s nose is completely brown.

    🙂

  65. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    It’s comical – when I completed the 87 part Weekend Word study of Matthew, I mentioned the next study would be on Revelation. Ever since it’s been like a full moon night in a Lon Chaney Jr movie.

  66. John 20:29 says:

    Stay the course, MLD stay the course. 😏

  67. Josh the Baptist says:

    I didn’t comment on the last week of Matthew either. Nothing new here. Just a waxy eared Berean Jehovah’s Witness. 🙂

  68. Josh the Baptist says:

    I’m going to talk about Mere Christianity, dang it. Whether you guys like it or not 🙂

    This is one of the few books I encourage all Christians to read. Lewis has such a way with language, but his brilliance is in being eloquent, artistic, and yet, understandable. I think this in itself brings glory to God, and his excellence should be an inspiration to each of us to practice whatever gifts God has blessed us with.

    The passage quoted in the article is a great example. You can just feel the locations that he speaks of. The uneasiness of the hallway. The warmth of home.

    The question was posed earlier of how you found “your” room. I’ve done a lot of thinking on that over the years, because I really didn’t want to be Baptist. How did I end up here, and how did it become so warm and familiar to me?

    I think I would answer that if the kindest, gentlest, strangest, bravest, wisest, most Christ-like man you new was standing behind one of those doors, you’d probably follow. As my granddad was all those things to me, and he was a Southern Baptist pastor, my being here makes sense in retrospect.

  69. John 20:29 says:

    FWIW
    Josh the B, yes, everyone should read Mere Christianity – agreed and, i think, The Screwtape Letters also… it will get one over the idea that the devil goes dancing around like a banshee in a red suit with a pitchfork and horns growing out of his skull … don’t know what God sees, but it’s probably worse than the myth
    weird, but true – as a child there was a big clothes closet over the stairwell and my cousins and i used to pretend that it had a back door that led to a magic land… that was before he’d written The Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe…

    Your pastor grandfather and mine are probably friends now… two kind, gentle, strange, brave and wise Christ-like men… i remember being spanked by my grandfather after my grandmother had had it with me one day (the only time he spanked me)… i was about 6 – he took his “strop” and gave me one good whack, then to mollify my poor tired grandmother in the other room, he then smacked his hand with the strop 3 more times… he said that he thought that one whack was all my infraction deserved…

    BTW – We knew many lovely S.B. folk during our years of affiliation with them… grounded and gracious… (there were a few who weren’t – like anywhere else)

  70. Josh the Baptist says:

    Great story about your grandfather, and brings back memories for me too. I was 4, and my grandmother had enough of me one day. Sent me to the corner in the hall, and went and told my granddad to come deal with me. He had the most serious look on his face as he got down on one knee and looked me straight in the eye. He whispered, “You…and me…are buddies.” Then he cracked cracked a smile, but put his finger to his lips so I wouldn’t laugh out loud. Ahh, love those memories.

    Hey, I was once at a large SB church. At a business meeting the music minister held up a picture of the space shuttle exploding. It had letters cut out and glued to it that said “You’re next”. The head of the deacons stood up and said proudly, “I sent that.”

    So yeah, I’ve known a few awful Southern Baptists.

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