The Weekend Word

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24 Responses

  1. Michael says:

    For clarity sake these studies are by Martin Luther’s Disciple.

    I couldn’t be happier that we are doing this study now and I invite those with different perspectives to engage with MLD and the rest of the community here.

    This book has been influential in not only the church, but in secular thinking and especially in politics.

    I would contend that the popular understanding of the book is not only wrong, but dangerously wrong…it’s not about the coming “New World Order”…

    I hope for more light than heat, though this book always generates both.
    I expect us all to engage irenically and with respect.

  2. I became a believer at a CC bible study of the Revelation. I now recognize that the rapture doctrine brought out of this perspective is heretical? blaspheme? It certainly derails many from the intended path.

  3. Michael says:

    I think heretical is too strong a word.
    I would say that it is ahistorical and from my perspective, aberrant.

  4. dusty says:

    Thank you MLD, this is very good. Thanks for you time and effort you put into this study.

  5. Xenia says:

    “Heterodox” is a useful word when you are too polite to say “heretical.”

  6. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    I am laying the foundation that this is a recounting of church history with Jesus ruling, reigning and working in the local church.
    We can cover the rapture in detail when we come to it in this book. 🙂

  7. Jean says:

    Outstanding!

  8. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    I misspoke a little. It is broader than church history – but it is at least the time of the church and surrounding world events.

  9. John 20:29 says:

    i won’t engage in this study… as one of those labeled heretic it would not serve a purpose that is constructive – further, since i am not a teacher i am instructed to avoid foolish and unlearned questions as they promote strife – we don’t need anymore strife

    Further i’m not too concerned about other Believers’ views of the second coming, or the prelude to the event, as long as all stay clear-minded enough through the tribulations to recognize false christs and to avoid moving to a mountain top in order to be the first ones out in the rapturing of the Church… 🙂

  10. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Em, it’s sad that you would think questions asked here by some are foolish.

  11. Michael says:

    So, I’m trying to be clear that the term heresy is off the books…there are vast differences within orthodoxy.

  12. John 20:29 says:

    ahhh, MLD …. your #10 is a glaring example of the reason that it would be imprudent to enter into your study from a contrarian viewpoint…
    i am not a teacher, it was my questions that would be foolish and unlearned…

    i actually find studies of Revelation rather boring and some years ago, as ii’ve said, i was surprised to be able to go thru the book with no preconceptions, building a flowchart that never hit a snag… from the world of computer programming, i learned that it is possible to flowchart logic even when you, yourself, are not able to construct said logic… logic stands on its own merit… the book of Revelation is very ordered logic, tracking from beginning to end with no hiccups… how you interpret the symbols is another matter – we’d agree on somethings, i think – the trumpets for example… but i don’t have your appetite for dissecting the book

    as i said above, “Further i’m not too concerned about other Believers’ views of the second coming, or the prelude to the event, as long as all stay clear-minded…..”

    i will read your weekly posting and i will, i assume, learn the historic interpretation’s structure…

  13. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Em, You can join in. Heck there was more end times stuff in the Matthew study we just finish. You should be able to see in this 6 verse study it is clearly about Jesus and his work in the church. You can comment on that.

  14. Paige says:

    Thanks again MLD. I appreciate your efforts here and look forward to the weekly notes.

  15. Duane Arnold says:

    With regard to “the rapture” – I would not say “heresy”. I would not even say “heterodox”. It does not impinge upon the unity of the Trinity, the Deity of Christ or the nature of the Holy Spirit. It does not add or subtract from Christ”s sacrifice on the cross or his bodily resurrection.

    It is, in my view, an interesting “opinion”. It has been floating around in the Church since the sixteenth century (some would contend earlier with Ephrem the Syrian in the seventh century, but the text, in my opinion does not lend itself to that interpretation).

    As an “opinion”, however, it does not change our walk with Christ, or our life with Christ in the world. If I die tonight, that is Christ coming for me. If he chooses to come for me in any other way, that is in the hand of God, not my trying to figure it out…

    MLD, I look forward to the upcoming articles…

  16. Jean says:

    I agree with Duane 99% of the time. His #15 is a 1% comment I disagree with.

    I think the rapture impinges on the doctrine of the incarnation, by denying the goodness of God’s creation and God’s promise to free it from corruption through the Gospel. Christ united himself eternally to creation and the idea that his first advent was a precursor to removing His body from the earth is a radical departure from orthodoxy.

    Moreover, that his incarnation and first advent did not fulfill his promises to Israel in bringing the kingdom of God and providing a Church in which from two men he makes one (Eph 2:15), is a teaching that is an affront to the Gospel.

    Finally, the doctrine of the rapture has a gnostic attribute in that its adherents often are against conservation and the goodness of God’s physical creation, because they believe the church is going to be removed from the earth.

    Aside from my rare disagreements with Duane, I love to read his stuff.

  17. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Like many things I guess it depends on what we mean by the rapture. If it is what we see described in Matt 25:7 and the 10 virgins ” “At midnight the cry rang out: ‘Here’s the bridegroom! Come out to meet him!’” – then I believe in the rapture.

    However, if it is to fulfill some promise to get the church out of the way because their purpose has been fulfilled and clear the playing field so God can get back to promises for Israel that have not been taken care of by Christ’s sacrifice on the cross, well, then I do think the rapture contradicts sound Christology.

    *** this does point to how bent we are with our feelings about Revelation, that we think it is about the rapture – which is neither mentioned nor implied in the book. Perhaps it is heresy to even discuss the rapture when discussing Revelation. 🙂

  18. John 20:29 says:

    I won’t enter in to a discussion on the interpretation of Revelation in this Weekend Word series… I will, however, observe that comments made here on the revelation of a capturing out of the Church that some very God fearinb and qualified scholarrs have proposed, betray here in the comments a lack of understanding of it…I
    Makes me wonder if their frame of reference has been constructed from anything more than H. Lindsey …? 😵

  19. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Em, state your point of view as you have been taught. Why is the church removed before the end?
    You have already come on 3 times to say that you won’t comment or teach, and then you drop a nugget and depart.

  20. Jeffrey W Pautz says:

    Good stuff. Thanks, MLD.

    I agree with MLD that Christians are the new Israel. I also agree with Jean’s concern that rapture theology detracts.

    Question, will the rapture be discussed in this study? On the one hand, MLD mentioned in #6 that the rapture will be dealt with when it comes up in the Revelation. On the other hand, he said in #17 that the rapture is neither mentioned nor implied in the Revelation. I hope that the teaching will hold to the text which is amillennial.

    Again, thanks.

  21. John 20:29 says:

    MLD, your in depth study is now only being prepared for launch… my “nuggets” will cease as you wade deeper into your teaching…
    your invitation at 19 would be a study in itself… there’s good material out there and well presented for anyone to study… and ponder

  22. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Jeffrey, #6 was my snarky attempt to get people to back away from ‘rapture’ talk so early in the discussion.
    #17 is my view buy not the view of the majority of readers.

    Thanks for your comments.

  23. Jeffrey W Pautz says:

    MLD, thank you for the #22 feedback. I look forward to the study.

  24. Duane Arnold says:

    #16 Jean

    No problem with the disagreement.

    I should be clear. I’m not talking about the eschatological system some have built around the idea of the rapture. I’m talking about the idea of an action of God that he makes of his own accord. For me, the issue is simply that I will be with Christ, regardless of the means by which that takes place. As I said… I simply consider it an opinion… Even though I do not hold with that opinion, I do not see it impinging on the basic tenets of the Faith. No more, no less…

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