Things I Think

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74 Responses

  1. Xenia says:

    1. When the #churchtoo lawsuits begin to proliferate….

    I wonder if this will make clergy and employees think twice about abusing others, now that they see there could be consequences. I wonder if this will cause churches to scrutinize church workers more carefully. I hope so.

    2. It would seem to me that as people representing “Christian” values and ethics that we would all be advocating for immigration reform that didn’t involve destroying families…

    I am always dumbfounded by the cruelty of certain “pro-family” politicians. I watched CNN’s documentary (part 1) about the Patty Hearst kidnapping. One of the ransom demands was a few million dollar’s of food distribution for the poor. President Reagan said he hoped all the people who accepted the free food got botulism, according to the program.

    3. The “progressive” wing of the church is becoming every bit as “fundamentalist” as it’s conservative alter ego…

    That’s for sure. They are more holier than thou than those who are really holy.

    4. I reject the lobby that demands a binary choice of “affirming” or “non affirming” on the issue of LBGTQ people in the church…

    Yeah, some Twitter heroines are promoting this. You would think the entire purpose of Christianity is to promote gender issues.

    5. Furthermore…I think the rise of Trump and his brand of traditionalism is directly correlated with people having these kind of binary choices shoved down their gullets…

    Yes. But it still doesn’t excuse them.

    6. Whenever people identify the place they worship by the name of their pastor I shudder a bit inside…

    I have visited Orthodox churches around the country and I never did catch the pastor’s name.

    7. I’m not sure but it seems like we’re losing our ability to cope…

    I’ve thought about this a lot. Over the weekend I was working on a project for a class. I thought I might make a simple animation to illustrate a complicated bit of early European history… blah, blah… you don’t want the details about that. BUT all the complications I had to go through… all the lost passwords I had to recover to access my software, all the this and all the that…. took up hours and had very little to do with the actual story. I look at the people on the street and I think that the world has gotten too complicated for many people. How many passwords do we have to remember? How many electronic gadgets are required just to apply for a job? Most good-paying jobs require tech skills of some sort. Not everyone is mentally (or emotionally) able to do this kind of work. Maybe they never had a chance for an education, for example. They give up. Their waitperson jobs don’t pay enough to live on. They fall apart and end up doing what they can: living on the street with their shopping cart and their dog. Or if they have family support, they end up with a dog. Thank God for dogs!

    8. The death of nuance precedes every other social calamity…

    After getting feedback on my last paper I can tell you I am sick and tired of nuance.

    9. I remember the days when if I knew I was going to an appointment where there would be a long wait, I’d take a book. It’s been a long time since I’ve seen people reading anything but a phone in a waiting room…

    They could be reading a book on Kindle. Or the PhxP!

    10. If you aren’t as as schooled in the implications of the Incarnation as much as you are in those of the Cross, you are only a partially informed theologian…

    Now you’re talking! Orthodoxy is often criticized (you posted an article the other day about this) of emphasizing the Incarnation over the Crucifixion. We do, and it effects all of our theology. God became one of us!

  2. Michael says:

    Xenia,

    I should have contracted the weeks column out to you…well done!

  3. Michael says:

    Anglicanism is also very concerned about Incarnational theology.

    I feel like I’m starting all over again in some ways…

  4. Babylon's Dread says:

    That’s a good list.

    I laughed
    I fussed
    I cussed
    I fought
    I thought
    and I rubbed the head of my therapy deer head trophy

    Trigger Finger Dread

  5. Steve says:

    #8 is interesting. I have a different take in that I believe nuance can only exist with a very strong command of the culture and language. Its almost impossible to have any kind of nuance in multicultural and multi-lingual environments.

  6. Michael says:

    Thank you, BD… 🙂

  7. Babylon's Dread says:

    I told my people to rejoice because liberal progressives have drunk the fundamentalist Kool-aid and they will raise children who will rebel against it.

  8. Michael says:

    Steve,

    I think it’s impossible to have nuance when sound bites are primary sources…I still think we’re capable of nuance, but we don’t want to do the work…

  9. Thought on the overall: This sparked my inventing a new word: *Authorbinarian.”

  10. Michael says:

    BD,

    Over the weekend I was “interviewed” by a teenager.
    I was very impressed at how he was rejecting the fundamentalist tendencies on both sides and looking for biblical and rational answers to current conflicts.

    He gave me much hope…much…

  11. Michael says:

    brad/futuristguy,

    I think you just started something good…well done!

  12. filbertz says:

    therapy dogs are my pet peeve.

    haddasayitfil 😉

  13. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    “I think it’s impossible to have nuance when sound bites are primary sources…”
    This is why all our theology must come from being in church – sermons, bible studies etc and internet should only be for light entertainment.

    My new church here in AZ is actually quite amazing. In the winter we double our church population as the winter visitors (snowbirds) come for 5 months. I have been blown away by the biblical / spiritual knowledge of these upper midwest Lutherans – and I came from 13 yrs of an academic based Lutheran church as many of the teaching staff at Concordia Irvine were members and teachers.

    But these old codgers have it down – perhaps because they spend little time on the internet. 😉

  14. Michael says:

    “This is why all our theology must come from being in church – sermons, bible studies etc and internet should only be for light entertainment.”

    I think you’re on to something…at the very least, the church should be utterly foundational to the rest of what we learn.

  15. Michael says:

    fil,

    Well done…you’re quick. 🙂

  16. Jean says:

    #4

    Here’s how church bodies, including Lutheran, Catholic, EO, Anglican, SBC and others are working together to promote sound policies and human flourishing. This falls into the category of “loving your neighbor.”

    “Among the letter’s signers are representatives of the North American Lutheran Church, the Anglican Church in North America, the Orthodox Church in America, the Church of God in Christ, the National Hispanic Christian Leadership Conference, the Presbyterian Church in America, and the Southern Baptist Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission.”

    “The letter promoting ‘natural marriage’ acknowledges that ‘all human beings are created by God and thereby have an inherent dignity’ and that because ‘God created each person male or female … sexual difference is not an accident or flaw — it is a gift from God that helps draw us closer to each other and to God. What God created is good.’ ”

    “ ‘We desire the health and happiness of all men, women, and children. Therefore, we call for policies that uphold the truth of a person’s sexual identity as male or female, and the privacy and safety of all,’ reads the letter.”

    “We hope for renewed appreciation of the beauty of sexual difference in our culture and for authentic support of those who experience conflict with their God-given sexual identity.”

    “Harrison noted that ‘on these significant issues where creedal Christians tend to agree, we have developed quite a surprisingly good relationship with the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops.’ ”

    #The Synod president also has signed previous USCCB documents “The Defense of Marriage and the Right of Religious Freedom: Reaffirming a Shared Witness” (April 2015), “Marriage and Religious Freedom Ecumenical and Interreligious Open Letter” (January 2012) and “Ecumenical Interreligious Open Letter on Protection of Marriage” (December 2010).”

    “Seltz pointed out that “so much of our gender confusion today starts with our unwillingness to deal with things as they are.”

    please find the whole letter here.

    https://blogs.lcms.org/2018/faith-leaders-affirm-god-given-sexual-identity

    I hope this blog community would affirm its purpose and content.

  17. “brad/futuristguy, I think you just started something good…well done!”

    Thanks Michael, however, I think I’d rather end something bad …

  18. Jean says:

    Loving your neighbor, when it conflicts with “love” as defined by the culture, brings the cross. In many cases it could cause membership to drop, could cause picketing in certain areas, could lead to loss of job and reputation in certain areas, etc. Christians have to decide if their up for exilic Christianity.

  19. Babylon's Dread says:

    A 30+ year old therapy dog toting veteran wandered into a group I was leading and found an older teenage girl. He lied about his age and lied about his intent and then swept away young woman into his neediness. Now he damns me for confronting him honestly and attempting to apply honorable boundaries. Of course his story will come out as one more abusive pastor mistreating a wounded soul. Where do her parents go to get justice? Where do I go to get truth vindicated? Right. This story is why most of the church-bashing garbage I read makes me want Al Pacino justice. A hell of a lot of it is one-sided lies and whining by victims who have become the bullies they hate.

    Flame Thrower Dread

  20. Duane Arnold says:

    “If you aren’t as as schooled in the implications of the Incarnation as much as you are in those of the Cross, you are only a partially informed theologian…”

    I’ve tried to school myself for four decades on the implications of the Incarnation and I find that I am still “only a partially informed theologian” – and that’s a good thing… So much more to learn.

  21. Michael says:

    BD,

    I will tell you that the number of stories submitted for inquiry here is on the rise…and much of those stories are as you say.
    However, there are still legitimate evils to be confronted.

    What we will soon see are avaricious lawyers lining up to fill fill their pockets through any story at all…

  22. Michael says:

    Duane,

    I don’t have enough time left to get up to speed…but then none of us really do. 🙂

  23. Steve says:

    “This is why all our theology must come from being in church – sermons, bible studies etc and internet should only be for light entertainment.”
    ______________________________________________________________________
    I dunno. From my experience I have gained more of my theology from reading blogs like Phoenix Preacher and other books and material than attending my particular church. If the only theology we get is from attending our own sect, we will become as closed minded as CC has in some cases thinking we have all the answers.

  24. Michael says:

    Jean,

    I agree with the letter in principle…but it doesn’t take into account the effects of the fall on everything human including our sexuality.

    I’m not sure all these letters and declarations are the way forward…maybe they’re necessary, but i wonder if they are effective.

  25. Michael says:

    Steve,

    There is that danger…i try to expose my church folks to a variety of Christian thought on different doctrines,but i know that’s not the norm.

  26. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Steve, my comment wasn’t about which church or Bible study. My thought was a contrast do we receive and form our theology from the church or what was being bemoaned here – sound bits, which I assume are coming from the internet.

  27. Steve says:

    Michael, you are an exception which is refreshing. What I like in my church is that the worship songs and styles constantly keep changing. If all I ever heard was German Lutheran hymns every Sunday I would go crazy.

  28. Steve says:

    MLD, I hear you and agree.

  29. Jean says:

    Michael,

    The “fall” is not a destination, but a starting place or diagnosis.

    “I’m not sure all these letters and declarations are the way forward…maybe they’re necessary, but I wonder if they are effective.”

    This depends on “effective for what?”

    (1) If one is lobbying for sound public school education, public accommodations, legal marital or adoption rights, etc., then these letters can be very effective if they mobilize Christian citizens who share their values to make their voices heard within the political process.

    (2) If one is going to catechize his church and steward the biblical doctrines of marriage, the church, human sexuality, etc., for the benefit of his congregation, then these letters can be very effective, when coupled with more detailed biblical support as fitting a house of God.

    (3) If one is going to counsel someone who is having personal issues, then “no”, these letters are not a counseling or therapy tool.

    (4) I don’t think public tweeting by Christian leaders on issues of morality, whether liberal or Conservative, are productive or wise. I wonder if the underlying motivation is to puff up the person doing the tweeting rather than Jesus Christ. I would like to think that the category of “super-apostle” was a aberration of the 1st Century AD.

  30. Scooter Jones says:

    Man, you are right about the death of nuance. Although this might not completely align with your statement, I’m amazed by the things people will write about on internet forums in whatever stand of mind they happen to be in at the moment.

    I have a niece who is now entangled with Oregon’s DHS over a family matter. Even though I warned here about taking that battle to social media via Facebook, she and another niece decided it was time to “expose the evils of DHS”.

    Turns out DHS was reading and really dropped the hammer.

    Kenny Rogers said it best, “you got to know when to hold ’em, know when to fold ’em…”

    She’s now come to her senses it appears and has decided to allow their attorney to mediate on their behalf entirely. Unfortunately, that form of nuance cost about $200 an hour.

  31. John 20:29 says:

    #10 – amen… the Cross is the climax, but how can one appreciate the story if all one knows is the drama of that moment… how little we appreciate the holiness of God, the miracle and power of His genius in reconciling us, His rebel creation
    i’m a sinner and as such would bring corruption into heaven and, yes, God’s perfect love found a way to overcome… if i accept that and die, well… all is good… but to live with no appreciation for what is revealed to us of the whole sum of the story is tragic…

    #7 – my faith is tested by car trouble – always has been… but the therapy animals are nuts (not all), i read of a woman who tried to board a plane with a peacock, her therapy bird and another who flushed her therapy hamster down the toilet because the airline wouldn’t let her board with it (now that one is strange all around)… i think i need therapy living in a house with a dog, Nu-Nu and a cat, Sticky whose hair has to be brushed off of everything, including my sandwiches!

    now i’ll go back up the thread and read the more enlightened comments here 🙂

  32. Michael says:

    Jean,

    One of the things that was impressed upon me when I was deep into the Reformed world was that both Luther and Calvin primarily identified themselves as local church pastors.

    I tend to look at everything theologically from that perspective.

    I think these “open letters” are basically political gestures which do little more than help people think we haven’t already lost the culture wars in general and this issue in particular.

    I could be wrong…

  33. Michael says:

    Em,

    I asked Miss Kitty and Chester if they wanted to go everywhere with me and they both said I needed therapy and went back to sleep…

  34. John 20:29 says:

    Michael, wise cats LOL

    i think i’d like to go back to the day when “perilous times” were defined by the neighboring tribe that might raid the camp and steal the women…

    today those times of peril seem to be defined by calling evil, good and good, evil… i’m beginning to understand what that does to our thinking… we can’t recognize black and white and therefore man (generic) has no absolutes, no solid data points to work from… our anchors aren’t dragging; they’re detached from our boats and seem to have taken the rudders with them

    there was a dust-up in South Korea as their government wanted the restaurants to not serve dog meat during the Olympics… good and evil? don’t know, but i think i know which side of that issue God is on… not because God loves dogs, but because He’d rather we didn’t eat them…

    dunno, tho, do I? 🙂

  35. Jean says:

    From the fall onward, the Church has always been at war with the culture, that is, “the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places.”

    The war is never lost. Jesus: “I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.”

    Do not lose heart: He who is in you is greater than he who is in the world.

  36. bob1 says:

    #32 I think these “open letters” are basically political gestures which do little more than help people think we haven’t already lost the culture wars in general and this issue in particular.

    I agree.

    Not sure what good they do. The fact that God created us “male and female” is pretty much a no-brainer. What good do these pronouncements do after that? Do they help in any way folks, for example, who experience same-sex attraction? Or does it just make them feel like they’re always gonna be second-class citizens (if even that) in the Church? Is that the way of Jesus?

  37. John 20:29 says:

    “From the fall onward, the Church has always been at war with the culture, that is, “the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places.” amen to that

    and we have forced open the gates of hell – THANK GOD… there is a way out of “this present darkness”

    but, of course, being a dispensationalist of one stripe, i cannot say that the Church was there from day one… but it was promised and coming and now is

  38. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    bob1 – so what good do the 10 commandments do for those who feel differently than commanded – for those who do not feel monogamous or that honesty is the best policy etc. (my comparison is to your example of those who have same sex feelings).
    I see no issue in reminding people what a church body may stand for and the idea of reading position papers to see if they are a church body we want to be associated with. I was just reading today of some type of Lutheran church that was having rebaptisms for the transgender crowd, as now their baptism as a person is not good enough – but they need baptism in their new found gender. Please, anyone and everyone, remind me that this is not good.

    In times like these, I think it is positive to remind people what the church may stand for or against — whether it be social policy or social justice.

  39. Reuben says:

    “From the fall onward, the Church has always been at war with the culture”

    Profoundly true. And this is the case in other cultures and religions.

  40. Muff Potter says:

    Bravo on #3 Michael!
    I’ve become just as disillusioned with the progressive wing of Christianity as I have with the fundagelical camp.
    It’s just as Orwellian, and its gurus will not brook even the slightest critique of their shtick.

    I know I am not alone.
    We are a growing underground of free-thinkers, renegades, and rogue anomalies, beholden to none, and glad to live and let live.

  41. Babylon's Dread says:

    @39 I am not sure that your assumption follows but it is an interesting question. It is no doubt true of some. And I note that you did not say all.

  42. bob1 says:

    bob1 – so what good do the 10 commandments do for those who feel differently than commanded – for those who do not feel monogamous or that honesty is the best policy etc. (my comparison is to your example of those who have same sex feelings).

    What has same sex attraction have to do with the 10 Commandments? Absolutely nothing.
    Your comparison is ridiculous.

    But congratulations on more muddled “thinking.”

  43. The New Victor says:

    “I was just reading today of some type of Lutheran church that was having rebaptisms for the transgender crowd, as now their baptism as a person is not good enough – but they need baptism in their new found gender.”

    Tranabaptists?

  44. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    bob1 – If the church leaders wrote a position paper stating that ‘although the culture has moved on and find the 10 commandments antiquated and too restrictive on human life, we stand by the 10 commandments and will not bend to the culture – even in the face of protest marches and lawsuits.”
    You would find that harmful to those who have “feelings” in another direction?
    Well thank you for your clear point of view.

  45. John 20:29 says:

    I think (i’m not God, i know. 😯 ) that God’s 10 basic commandments were given taking into account man’s (generic) feelings… It is our mixed up feelings that necessitated giving them to us in the first place… While i cannot imagine wanting to change my gender or feeling a romantic attraction for my own gender, i have experienced wanting to take a gun and shoot an abuser of my child… neither action is justifiable – yes, i know that being attracted to my own sex might be more persistent, harder to cope with – but that does not justify a transgression…
    We can all thank God for His offer of forgiveness, non-the-less and everyday…
    That said, we have God’s warning that grace can run out, “My Spirit will not always strive with man…”
    If the above makes no sense, im on this little tablet again, sorry

  46. bob1 says:

    For one thing, there’s no such thing as “the culture.” So a culture can’t “move on.”

    What protest marches and lawsuits are you referring to, anyway?

  47. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    bob1 – forget it – if you and your church make no public statements of right and wrong on any level in the public square, that is fine with me – I think it is the wrong choice but you are free to do as you please.

  48. bob1 says:

    I’ll be sure to let my leaders know of your blessing.

  49. descended says:

    #2 Hell yes

    #3 they are altar egos with secular reflections – a very spotless image

    #4 Wondering what you do then? Refusing to make a choice is a choice. Not condemning just wondering. Is there scripture or precedent to back up your opinion?

    #5 No leader is shoving anything down our gullets. Jesus said people would rise up against one another, ethnicities and races. He didn’t say anything about leaders creating identity politics and fomenting tribal foolishness. WE are shoving our opinions down other’s gullets, the media is giving is what we want, and our leaders are bubbling up from the stinking brine of our spoiled discontent. “Lie to me” ought to be the next campaign slogan.

  50. Anon says:

    #5 No leader is shoving anything down our gullets.

    Kinda hard to argue that with a straight face, isn’t it, when 80% of American evangelicals
    voted for Dear Leader Trump

  51. Anon says:

    #5 No leader is shoving anything down our gullets.

    Kinda hard to argue that with a straight face, isn’t it, when 80% of American evangelicals
    voted for Dear Leader Trump

  52. Steve says:

    Ok, I usually stay out of politics on this blog but this gets me fired up. I voted for Trump and I am an American evangelical but I usually don’t lump these two things together like many on here constantly do. If I were to do it all over, I would 100% vote for Trump again in the 2016 election. Evangelicals aren’t the main problem like somehow the deplorable church is to blame for who they voted for. Maybe we should start looking at the fake media. And why are we believing polls about who voted for who anyway? The voting booth should be sacred in that who people voted for is secret other than we know the totals. The statistical polls were completely wrong going into the election, so do we really trusts the statistical polls after the election? What we do know is that Trump won but the demographics of who voted for him is based on slimy statistics like the same stuff that said Hillary would win in a landslide. Just saying.

  53. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    To support Steve’s claim a little, although 80% of evangelicals may have voted for Trump, the polls showed that the evangelical vote was only 1/3 of those who voted for Trump.
    This is not an evangelical issue. To continually place this at their feet is just wrong and not thought out.

  54. Michael says:

    So…the issue with Trump and evangelicals is that for some of us, the man and what he represents are antithetical to what we understand to be Christian values.

    It is as intellectually discordant as if 80% of African Americans voted for a Grand Wizard of the KKK.

    That…is the problem for many of us in the church.

    I think the polls are accurate and when we see leaders ranging from Greg Laurie to Paula White to Robert Jeffers in the White House little doubt remains.

    This schism in the church will have historical implications…and won’t be settled here.

  55. Steve says:

    The election in 2016 was between Hillary and Trump and many ways it was voting “against” rather than “for” someone. I’m venturing a guess here but I’m pretty confident that most people who did not vote for Trump probably voted for Hillary.

    Most Christians let alone evangelicals would probably come to the conclusion that what Hillary stands for and stood for is completely antithetical to Christian values. I am one of those people. I’m actually convinced that she will eventually be brought to justice with a bunch of Obama administration officials and we will probably see many folks going to jail for a long time.

  56. Duane Arnold says:

    #54 Michael

    To add to your comment, the support for Mr. Trump among evangelicals and prominent evangelical leaders has, in my opinion, curtailed the ability of many evangelicals to “speak truth to power”…

    I’m afraid the church at large will pay for that inability in the future.

  57. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    This seems a bit strange – when the people who put out the statement we discussed here yesterday were trying to “speak truth to power” so to speak, they were shouted down by some parties here. (or at least pressured to be silent outside of their own 4 walls)

  58. Michael says:

    MLD,

    I didn’t see anybody shouted down…I saw some people wondering how effective such things were.

  59. Kevin H says:

    I personally do not get worked up about the 80% number of evangelicals voting for Trump. On one hand, standing in insolation by itself, it is jarring to see that 80% voted for a man as ridiculous and morally debased as Trump. On the other hand, there is the understanding that many were not voting so much for someone who they thought was a good choice, but rather against Hillary who they saw as even a worse choice. And given that both candidates had serious moral difficulties, it is not surprising that most evangelicals voted for the Republican candidate given that most already lined up more with Republican and conservative ideals and policies, and at the very least, Trump represented that more than Hillary.

    What I see as the seriously troubling and disturbing aspect to all this is the significant amount of evangelicals, both big-time leaders and regular lay-people and everyone in between, who exuberantly cheer on the man and fervently defend him, even at his worst. There is absolutely no good or justifiable reason for this and it is far more than some tiny, inconsequential amount of evangelicals who are partaking in such behaviors. And this is what really unsettles me.

    And it is those who have engaged in this type of behavior who I believe have lost, or have at least seriously inhibited, their ability to “speak truth to power” in our society. In some respects, it has made it even harder for other evangelicals, or even Christians as a whole, to be respected or taken seriously by our culture when speaking out. Because irrational and immoral support for Trump has now been attached to evangelicals, or sometimes even Christianity as a whole, by many in our society.

  60. Michael says:

    KevinH,

    I’ll just say the amen…

  61. Jean says:

    I think Xenia actually nailed it a few weeks ago when she observed that before the general election choice of Hillary vs. Trump, evangelicals chose Trump over the many other GOP presidential primary candidates. That shows that there was affirmative support for Trump, what he stands for, how he talks and the way he treats people.

  62. Kevin H says:

    Jean,

    I don’t know how the numbers exactly break down but it was far less than 80% support of Trump from evangelicals during the primaries. At the same time, he still did get some significant level of support from evangelicals during that time when there were plenty of other options who weren’t as abhorrent as Trump. And that is disturbing.

    I would imagine there is some overlap between those evangelicals who are now his most vocal supporters and those who were supporting him during the primaries.

  63. John 20:29 says:

    from here it seems strange to judge Trump as unworthy to be President… for the record, my doctrine of choice says that God put him there…
    Is the man a Christian? i don’t know, i think he claims to be… is that claim like so many political animals claim the Faith? i don’t know. Nancy Pelosi was going to bring her rosary (blessed by the Pope) to the floor of the House to pray for the defeat of the budget that didn’t meet her standard for caring for the DACA group… maybe she should be President?

    pray for those in authority over us to bless and not curse us and, yes, stand for the Faith, but don’t expect to bring the whole nation into the fold… it would be a nice outcome, tho 🙂

    i love the hearts here, but must stand on the side of Steve and MLD this morning….

  64. Xenia says:

    my doctrine of choice says that God put him there…<<<<

    If that is the case, and it may well be for various unpleasant reasons, then there was no need for me to vote for Trump, was there? I got to vote for someone else, a decent person, and keep a clear conscience.

  65. John 20:29 says:

    yes, Xenia, it well may be for unpleasant reasons… we’re not as smart about the goings on in “high places” in the commerce of the world as we might wish to be…
    yes, you should vote your conscience… but not too many decent people ever reach positions of power and still God tells us to pray for those in authority over us… He can and does turn the hearts and heads of people in such positions… although, i confess that i’d have a hard time having faith that He could have turned a President Hillary to bless us… still i understand old Bill did do some good things for the nation in spite of his indecencies, so… who knows…
    the coming (yes, Lutes, i know it has begun and will prevail) Kingdom of our Lord is another issue, tho… i don’t think we get to vote there 🙂

  66. Steve says:

    Amen! No need to worry about having to pray for Hillary as a leader of our country. It didn’t happen. The country and the world was spared thanks to many evangelical brethren stopping her with their votes.

  67. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Just remember one thing – Trump is not the problem. Oh, and Hillary is not the problem and we should not even be discussing who God has sent in place.

    You and I are the problem. Why do we need government in the first place? Why were we not satisfied with God being the government.
    Whatever we think of Trump or Hillary, just remember that we are just as bad.

    Duane and others like to quote – so I will make this offering – “we have met the enemy, and he is us” – Pogo

  68. Steve says:

    MLD, I hear what you are saying and agree we are the problem. So are the CC celebrity pastors and their form of church government. However they admit no wrong and will never apologize no matter how wrong they are. But no, they are not the problem, we disgruntled congregants are. So should we all just shut up and never voice a concern again by discussing who God sent in place? That sounds too much like the no talk rule from the old guard CC applied to politics.

  69. Jean says:

    “We are the problem” is the reason why the Christian life is one of repentance.

    We are not going to fix our country’s problems by electing a despicable human being, so I hope we have learned something for the next elections. I will pray that the electorate will vote this November to restrain this tyrant to the greatest extent possible, and then to be totally rid of him in the next election, unless the Lord grants us mercy and he is somehow impeached or resigns before then.

  70. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    We didn’t fix the country when we elected a ‘born againer’

  71. ( |o )====::: says:

    “Why do we need government in the first place? Why were we not satisfied with God being the government?”

    …because God prefers certain things delegated to humans and theocracies tend to be amazingly corrupt.

    God gave us the wisdom to tax ourselves to pool resources to create infrastructure, hire people to design, build, educate, being sure to separate church & state so the scientific method of repeatable, verifiable and demonstrable disciplines could help us develop standards which assure us of health, safety and equity.

  72. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Or there is the biblical account.

  73. Duane Arnold says:

    As I seem to be known for quotes…

    “In a democracy people get the leaders they deserve.”
    Joseph de Maistre, 1811

  74. Scooter Jones says:

    Duane, Trump is our President because Jean deserves it? 😉

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