Mar 172014
 

thinking_man_ape_wood_3d_sculpture_thinker_think-480x3251. It is the custom of the Iranian government to sometimes grant freedom to political prisoners on the occasion of the Iranian New Year. It is our fervent hope that this year such clemency will be granted to Saeed Abedini. We are  going to accompany that hope with actions…we will be conducting a social media campaign again this Wednesday to raise awareness and ask the Iranian government to release Pastor Saeed. Each one of you reading is vital to this effort…your voice is amplified when you join with others for this cause. We ask you to join the “10,000 as 1” on the Free Saeed Facebook page and ask others to do likewise. There will be a list of activities for Wednesday up soon!

2. The current hot topic in progressive theological circles online is to fight against “patriarchy”…the assumption being that much of the abuse in churches is the result of a complementarian view of gender roles, which needs to be replaced by an “egalitarian” view of the same. While there is some truth to this and abuses need to be addressed, sin has no respect for gender. Women in authority are as prone to being abusive as men are. It may be enjoyable to be on the other end of the stick, but it won’t solve the problem. Accountability and consequences for sin regardless of gender solves the problem..

3. Fred Phelps of the notorious Westboro Baptist Church is near death. I fear for his soul far more than those of the people he hated. Fred made a career of striking the rock…

4.“And if a house is divided against itself, that house will not be able to stand.” (Mark 3:25 ESV)

5. Happy St. Patricks Day!

6. One of the unspoken lies of the celebrity preacher culture is that only about a dozen guys in the world can really preach.

7. It is spiritually impossible for someone to be your pastor who doesn’t even know your name.

8. If someone talked about your spouse the way we talk about the bride of Christ…

9. Yellow is Saeed Abedini’s favorite color. Your mission, should you choose to accept it, is to turn your part of the internet yellow this week…

10.“On that day, when evening had come, he said to them, “Let us go across to the other side.”And leaving the crowd, they took him with them in the boat, just as he was. And other boats were with him. And a great windstorm arose, and the waves were breaking into the boat, so that the boat was already filling. But he was in the stern, asleep on the cushion. And they woke him and said to him, “Teacher, do you not care that we are perishing?” And he awoke and rebuked the wind and said to the sea, “Peace! Be still!” And the wind ceased, and there was a great calm. He said to them, “Why are you so afraid? Have you still no faith?”And they were filled with great fear and said to one another, “Who then is this, that even the wind and the sea obey him?””

Storm tossed friends, always remember one thing.

Jesus is in the boat with you.

Don’t panic until He does…

(Mark 4:35–41 ESV)

  468 Responses to “Things I Think”

  1. Have a green day and a yellow week….

  2. Things I Think always adds to the start of my Mondays! Blessings blog family!

    FIRST!

  3. Move Dread to second because he didn’t claim FIRST!:smile:

  4. 🙂

  5. Boys and girls are still fighting. Never ends. Give them a pulpit and they want a red hat… what’s next… their own blog?

  6. I have been on the receiving end of spiritual control, manipulation and abuse, though what I experienced is mild compared with what a lot of others have suffered. None of this occurred in what would be considered a patriarchal setting.

    Spiritual control, manipulation and abuse are significant problems in the church. For a variety of reasons I would rather someone other than Rachel Held Evans address these issues.

  7. Number 7 needs to be shouted from the rooftops!

  8. I have no problem with Fred Phelps dying and going to hell. He can serve as an example to others of what gets you into hell.

  9. Frankly, I’m hoping that Fred Phelps will have a MAJOR revelation and apologize before he passes….. I find it most interesting in newspaper comments that so many ‘unbelievers’ are certain he will burn in Hell….even though said commentators ‘don’t believe’….

    I continue to pray for Pastor Saeed’s release.

  10. Phelps has a couple of very strong, aggressive middle aged daughters. Maybe they will turn it into an egalitarian church and prove women can be just as abusive, hateful and corrupt as any man.

  11. I am not that interested in Fred Phelps going to hell but he won’t be missed here.

  12. Larry,

    I think Rachel Evans is very articulate and a good spokesperson for her view.
    I don’t always agree with here, but she writes very well.

  13. If #7 was a reality church as we know it would cease to exist.

  14. erunner,

    #7 is a reality…there is a huge difference between a pastor and a person who delivers a religious lecture to a crowd.

  15. Those in the pulpit and those who attend these churches all see the person teaching as the/their pastor. I like the idea but with the size of many churches it’s not possible for the pastor to know each person by name. Many churches seem to focus on small groups to give members/attendees the opportunity to develop friendships and a sense of knowing and being known. Churches as we know them would have to become smaller for the pastor to know all who attend as opposed to the man delivering a message each week.

  16. Erunner,

    I would contend that American evangelicalism doesn’t know what either a pastor or a disciple is…but I’m a curmudgeon…

  17. Do you see making disciples as countering rapid growth and that many are more concerned about numbers than the ‘quality’ of those who sit under their teaching? Maybe more of an impact be made for God if that mindset changed?

  18. #17

    I’m beginning to see much truth in that statement. Does that make me a curmudgeon?

  19. Bob…. your age qualifies you!! :mrgreen:

  20. Am I the only one who feels like evangelicals are an endangered species? There’s this picture I have of people who have replaced God with the president and the Bible with the constitution trying to set up a theocracy here and now. It seems the world and great portions of the church have no use for them…

  21. I’m beginning to believe that the roll of a pastor been re-defined. Heavy on teaching, lite on other ministries. Maybe we should call these ministers “teacher” rather than pastor. Perhaps its the church today that expects nothing more than a teacher. I really don’t know. All I do know is that in the 23 years since I was called a pastor, things seem to have changed. Maybe my expectations need to change as well.

  22. “E”

    😉

  23. Erunner,

    In my not always humble opinion, the job of the pastor has absolutely nothing to do with numerical growth and everything to do with spiritual growth, individually and corporately.
    The focus we have on the gifting of one man, “the pastor” means that the all the other giftings of everyone else in the assembly are given short shrift.
    The body is whittled down to a head.

  24. Bob, I do like reading when MLD describes how his pastor is visiting homes and hospitals while at the same time having such a low profile in the church and during the service. I do think people are most interested in good teaching as they would define that and churches aim to meet those expectations. It’s so off that in my 38 years as a believer I haven’t seen much change at all. I imagine that’s a result in growing up in CC’s….

  25. Bob,

    I’ve been a curmudgeon since I was about 15… 🙂

  26. Michael, I visited a church that was begun 80 years ago and they had maybe 30 people for their service. The pastor was almost apologetic about it as he spoke to me. I thought about it and wondered if he had nothing to apologize for or if after 80 years and a congregation so small maybe it was time to close shop. But then maybe some of the larger churches need to close shop. My point being I’ve seen pastors of big and small seem overly concerned about numbers and what constitutes a healthy church. That bothers me a lot.

  27. Bob,

    The expectation has changed in that a pastor is supposed to be an excellent orator above all else.
    My first real pastor was an exhorter, not much of a teacher at all…but he was wonderful at nurturing me through his pastoral gifts.
    He was a true pastor in every sense of the word.

  28. Erunner,

    What you describe is the effect of the myths of American evangelicalism.
    I’d rather pastor 30 faithful disciples than 300 customers…

  29. I got an e-mail from a church stating there would be an afterglow after Saturday service. There would be a half hour break between regular service and the afterglow and snacks would be provided during the break. That seemed all wrong to me. At times I wonder if I’m the curmudgeon.

  30. Michael, your 29 is spot on. Yet I recall spending years in a small church and the pastor always saying we were better off under his teaching than those other coffee shop type churches. Man I hated hearing that and regret never speaking up as I was on staff.

  31. For so long I looked at the pastor as speaking for God and therefore couldn’t be wrong in what he shared. Sure there could be doctrinal disagreements but these men couldn’t misrepresent God. That was silly thinking. Coming here opened my eyes a lot although I was so combative early on as my idols were being shown to have feet of clay. I suspect the man I was represents too many in the church today. Sacred cows have been set up that need to be torn down. I’m glad I got to hang around before everyone else shows up. I’ll check back later.

  32. I teach God’s word the same whether it be to 20 people that I know very well or to hundreds of whom scores I do not know their name. So the “religious-lecture” comment is sort of silly. The value of the message and the power of the word does not change just because the pastor knows the name of all the people receiving it. Besides, it’s not like the pastor does not know ANYBODY in a large church. So the same message is “religious-lecture” to some but not to others?

    Now, if one sees the pastor’s role solely as self-focused, (like UPS – what can Brown do for you) then one’s view is going to be different than if one sees themselves as part of a community, as part of corporate worship. A strong Christian family goes to a large church. They have children in the Sunday School, a kid in the nursery, another in the Jr. High youth group. The mother attends the womens fellowship, and the husband goes to the monthly men’s Saturday breakfast. They have many friends in the church. They worship God there, they are growing in their understanding of the word. They rejoice the church supports missionaries, and they help them by prayer and their financial support. All of the above, in churches like mine, the pastor has a definite hand in making possible. He is the overseer (i.e. the bishop)

    The key is not name-knowing. The key is availability. Is it possible for you to meet the pastor and introduce yourself if you desire? More importantly, if there is that serious need like a sickness or death, can they call the pastor and will he respond? There have been many people at CCLE who admit they have been part of the church for years, never came up to me to say “Hi” but we officially meet because of a trial in life. Surely the man does not “become” the pastor at that moment.

    All that to say, you might tighten up #7 a little. Especially the “spiritually impossible” part.

  33. Does anyone really actually preach better than TD Jakes?

  34. RR Vet, well, Charles Manson used o do a good job preaching. Talk about a guy who could motivate a group to act!!!

  35. “The current hot topic in progressive theological circles online is…”

    I always considered “theological progressives” as those who have one foot out the door of the faith. the;
    ‘I am keeping the Christian label, but I don’t believe a single jot or tittle of it any longer” crowd.

    There, I said it! 🙂

  36. Yeah, Driscoll and his Mars Hill posse are quitting social media. Uh, leak a letter using an online communication tool to the social media to stir up sentimental viral sympathy.

    Bull spit.

    You see I’m stilll looking for a correlation between what you say and how you roll. “

  37. “Does anyone really actually preach better than TD Jakes?”

    I guess it depends on what the definition of “preaching” is.

    Personally I have never found TD’s books or preaching anything more than self promotion or hardly a teaching to help the listener know who God is (he’s a hidden one-ness/modalism believer). I associate him right up (ok down) there with Creflo Dollar.

    I thought Oral Roberts could hold a crowd better than anyone. Of course he did that death threat move and it all came tumbling down.

  38. MArk Driscoll’s letter said this:

    “I have also submitted these decisions to the Board of Advisors and Accountability”

    The implication of this partial sentence is He, Mark, made the decisions and then informed the “Board” of those decisions. It also smells of having a board in name alone which has little if any power to say “no” the man.

    What he has not done is “submit” himself to these men, for they are just advisers and someone whom he can say he made an “account” to.

    Personally I don’t get it, what’s he afraid of? The worst thing that could happen to him is having a real board say, “No we heard from Jesus, studied His words and the answer is NO.” Life will move on Mark, you don’t have to be right all the time.

  39. victorious, it may arguably even more shrewd than that. They know they haven’t managed to stop content from The City leaking to outsiders so why not have the press release leaked by critical bloggers who will inadvertantly be the catalyst for it going viral? The people who ran with the content as soon as they got it and didn’t think things through a few extra steps basically got played.

  40. As longs as people want an impressive event to invite someone to rather than impart a life of significant value and virtue through the blood sweat and tears associated with a labor of love, narcissists with charisma and shrewdness will find lucrative careers in the pulpit.

  41. Wenatchee. I would have to say I agree.

  42. MLD,

    I don’t think that’s a fair assessment of many of those folks at all.
    I think you would have been looking for kindling to burn Luther in 1519…

  43. When Driscoll wants to confess to serial plagiarism and publicly apologize to the elders and pastors he stacked like cordwood, I’ll listen.

  44. Sure they are. In this case they deny male headship in the church because they think they have a better way than God’s way. Since god’s way has obviously failed in protecting women … it is now time to try the “progressive way” and get some actual results.

    I am sure that in the end, they figure God can learn something, and if he ever tries this creation thing again, perhaps he will give some consideration to their thoughts.

  45. The implication of this partial sentence is He, Mark, made the decisions and then informed the “Board” of those decisions. It also smells of having a board in name alone which has little if any power to say “no” the man.
    ———————————————-
    Bob, while that very well may be true in Driscoll’s case, I just want to add that I can see where a pastor making a major change in how he has been doing the work versus what is to come is both a personal choice, and yet, worthy of advising the Board.

    When Piper took his year off, if I recall, he made the choice, and asked the Board for their blessing.

    Maybe the church Board WANTS their pastor ‘out there’ doing interviews, tweeting and so forth as part of the job for what they think is a benefit to the church and its growth – and they would be upset if the pastor wanted to shut all that down.

    Another way of looking at that is all….I served on the Board of a church for a couple years and it was not something I asked permission to do from my Board..but at the same time I did advise them of my decision – and I certainly would have listened to any objections and considered them.

  46. “but at the same time I did advise them of my decision – and I certainly would have listened to any objections and considered them.”

    That sounds like total veto power over the board decisions.

  47. I have “total veto power” over how I spend my free time – which in this case was simply a Tuesday night meeting every three months.

    Does your pastor require Board approval on how he uses his free time?

  48. MLD,

    They are bringing their exegetical and ethical arguments to the church just as the Reformers did…and I’m always willing to listen to exegesis.

  49. “Does your pastor require Board approval on how he uses his free time?”
    Yes, we don’t allow him to join any lodge organizations.

  50. Michael – so perhaps you have defined these folks improperly … what makes them progressives vs just concerned Christians.

  51. Boys and girls are still fighting. Never ends. Give them a pulpit and they want a red hat… what’s next… their own blog?

    Shame on you!

  52. #45 – really Micheal? I guy confesses and repents of multiple offenses and rather than rejoice you keep swinging? Would you treat your son or church members like that.

    Here is what Mark said about the plagerism:
    Regarding a 1 Peter and 2 Peter study guide that InterVarsity Press told CT did not qualify as fair use, Driscoll states: “The error was unintentional, but serious nonetheless. I take responsibility for all of this. In order to make things right, we’ve contacted the publisher of the works used in the study guide, offered an apology, and agreed to work with them to resolve any issues they had.”
    http://www.christianitytoday.com/gleanings/2013/december/tyndale-releases-results-mark-driscoll-plagiarism-investiga.html

  53. I agree with Shaun. I was going to say something earlier, but Bob, Wenatchee, Victorious, and Michael all jumped MD and his apology. You know me, kind of a wall flower that doesn’t like to buck the system … so I remained silent. 😉

    I don’t know what else MD can do other than perhaps slice a vein in his wrist and bleed out.

    I would forgive him, but his offense was not against me. I could vow to never again buy his books, but I haven’t bought one yet.

    I think folks should just back off and let the man become an obscure figure.

  54. Shaun,

    So far we know of plagiarism of SEVEN books and one Tim Keller sermon. No mention by name of the elders and pastors he tried to ruin…and that’s an apology?
    If he’s one of my elders I’d can him and put him under church discipline until he owns what he’s actually done.

  55. He doesn’t owe you an apology Micheal. He is meeting privately with people who have a beef with him. “I have been burdened by this for the past year and have had private meetings one at a time to learn from, apologize to, and reconcile with people.” http://www.reddit.com/r/religion/comments/20gg40/markdriscolladdressesmarshill_church/

    Can’t you praise God for the good that is happening? Do you always have to be the angry man who cusses at everyone who drives by? I can’t imagine you joyful, it is always anger and bitterness, doesn’t it ever wear you out?

    “If someone talked about your spouse the way you talk about the bride of Christ…” Sound familiar?

  56. You mean Creflo $$$

  57. Shaun,
    I know some of those people and they are far more upset than I am. Your perception of me couldn’t be more wrong and borders on slander, but I’ve come to expect that from you.
    What wears me out is the refusal of people like you to address corruption, but that’s not going to stop me from doing it.

  58. I don’t care for MD that much, but this is more than I expected of him.
    I agree with Shaun to an extent.

  59. Why would people be upset over an apology and a chance at reconciliation?
    It may fall apart and prove nothing, but that chance never existed before.

  60. I hate to enter this because to me MD is a non entity in Christian life, but …

    Michael, are you saying, in light of all that has been posted today that MD is ignoring the issue or running from it? This is shallow on your part. Reading through this, it sounds like he has address every charge with some sort of an apology.

    It may not be to YOUR liking, but he is not apologizing to you.I don’t know why you somehow feel that you personally are the offended party.

    Serious historians have been charged with plagiarism – Stephen Ambrose and Doris Kearns Goodwin to mention two – and it took them years to sort out the source of the plagiarism.

  61. “8. If someone talked about your spouse the way we talk about the bride of Christ…”

    Good point…

    On that note, after some time of being disconnecting from the body of Christ via the local assembly, I really began to have a desire to get reconnected in that way.

    Seems like I’ve found a place. My life has been enriched because of it too. There’s just something about being among blood (of Christ) washed saints of the Church, in spite of all her faults and shortcomings, that brings such redeeming value, purpose and focus into my life.

    I’m very grateful for the Lord’s Church and especially for those men who have honestly and sincerely given themselves to the ministry of building up the Church through teaching and prayer. Thank you to those of you here who do so.

  62. Guess I must not of used the right email address when signing in 😉

  63. Steve:

    “When Piper took his year off, if I recall, he made the choice, and asked the Board for their blessing.”

    I would say from observation of Piper and my own church experience, what Driscoll is doing is probably not quite the same. I was an associate under a SBC Pastor at one time and it when it came time for me to step down and move onto another whole church I went and asked for the Senior Pastor’s release and my desire for him to inform the church of such. Which he did both graciously and with kindness.

    However, Driscoll has an “Advisory” board and from my experience this means they have no real yes or no vote in his actions or decisions, just a rubber stamp and a blessing. Now While I don’t know Driscoll and risk being wrong in his case I will explain why my experience suggests this to me. I personally know four pastors who were “let go” for various reasons (one had committed adultery) from their churches by the local boards and all of them to the man (yes MLD no women pastors in this group) when hired by new churches changed the bylaws so that their new boards couldn’t “fire” them again. You know what all these boards where then renamed? Yep, “Advisory” boards, not elders, deacons or any other tradition church positions, just “Advisory Board.”

    OK Steve, I’m not saying any of these churches, accept in the case of adultery, were either right or wrong for letting their pastor go and seeking a new one. What I am commenting on is the reaction of the pastors when they entered new churches and how it makes me think Mark Driscoll frankly doesn’t want anyone, except “Jesus,” telling him what to do.

    Personally I find freedom in knowing that others are also responsible for the church community and Godly decision making.

  64. MLD:

    “I don’t know what else MD can do other than perhaps slice a vein in his wrist and bleed out.

    I would forgive him, but his offense was not against me. I could vow to never again buy his books, but I haven’t bought one yet.”

    Actually I would agree with both these statements.

    I don’t think he will ever be satisfied with obscurity. Like all big personalities if everyone left him alone he would come up with a scheme so people would notice him. Kind like Ed Young Jr. putting a bed on a roof and proclaiming couples (married) need to have more sex.

    😉

  65. Bob,
    Don’t you think those boards are 100% at fault for even allowing the pastor to tamper with the by laws? How does that happen? You are pointing the finger at the wrong culprit.

  66. damage control and possibly someone on the board of MH grew a pair. Driscoll should have been terminated…… several stupid, idiotic episodes ago. I hope that the experience will teach him and that he will finally grow up.

  67. Janet Mefferd is a right wing wonk who herself should have resigned her position when she retreated on all the MD stuff and fired Ingrid Schlueter (later called a resignation)

    This woman is no less an opportunist than MD – same stripes, same smell – they just wear different color jerseys.

  68. MLD:

    “Don’t you think those boards are 100% at fault for even allowing the pastor to tamper with the by laws? How does that happen?”

    Of course I do and I’m pointing the finger at the pastor and the boards. All of those pastors (including the one who was an adulterer) were “hired” by failing churches who were seeking a boost to their membership. After hiring these men, changing the bi-laws, and moving forward all of the churches have grown with two of them having attendance in excess of 2000 each Sunday.

    Now we could get into a discussion about what the foundations of these churches are and such, but that would be fruitless. Basically they got what the wanted, a strong personality led organization.

  69. Bob, I doubt we disagree on much here. Maybe the bigger question worthy of discussion is what is expected of pastors of large churches in this new world of technology.

    If a celebrity pastor says in effect, I’m spending too much time in other areas – so I am going to stop, can the Board say……. “No, as part of your job we expect you to have a visible face to the world beyond our congregation and that will require you to tweet something original once a day to your thousands of followers, will require you to speak at a conference once a month out of state, representing this church. We need this church to keep growing and your efforts have been instrumental to that and we insist it continues.”

    You see what I am getting at (putting Driscoll aside).

    My earlier point was that there are things in the pastor’s life that are not really the business of any Board, but at the same time out of courtesy the pastor can advise of any new directions and also out of respect for their spiritual maturity, ask them for advice or comments, as well as alleviate concerns.

    I mentioned Piper because the Board did not ask him to do that. He made his decision (which specifically was NOT a resignation but a sabbatical), told them, then they went from there as to the specifics. Does he have a contract that allows for a sabbatical? I don’t remember reading of one. No, this was his idea based on his need and he made his decision and asked the Board to bless it and have his back with the people who might be upset.

  70. Steve:

    Of course there’s thing in all of our lives that are no business of the board (sadly many churches make every private detail their business), and I would agree with you on the courtesy thing. The issue though is the structure of the church and who is responsible for the execution of the community’s welfare. Is a pastor just a teacher, an administrator, a visionary, prophet, or what? I say it depends. But when men like MD, and others I know, set up “Advisory Boards” I believe the intentions are not about what is best for the community of believers, rather what is best for the pastor.

    In MD’s case who is he looking out for? I really could care less where he vacations, what books he writes (plagiarism is bad though), what sports teams he likes or even what his favorite color is. If I were a member of the MH Community I would be concerned about the welfare of that community, and MDs actions are a huge part of that. If he heads down a tangent (no matter how many times he tells us Jesus told him) without Godly men at the helm (not advisers) along side him who will say No?

    The community of faith isn’t a business nor is it an organization which exists for itself, its there to assist (equip) people to know the Risen Lord Jesus. Can that be said about MH and Mark Driscoll? That’s for people to decide for themselves.

  71. Steve,

    In a practical real life example which ended in tragedy think about that captain who took his cruise ship at a high speed too close to shore. Where were his crew to say no and why didn’t anyone point out his violation of safety standards? In the end, instead of staying aboard to save people, he was the first to abandon ship thus leaving people to die aboard the vessel he was in charge of.

    This Captain didn’t use the resources of those professionals around him. Instead he did what he wanted to do and believed was right and ultimately cost the lives of people he was responsible to protect. Of course being a pastor isn’t the same as captaining a cruise ship at all.

  72. Michael, I will ignore your statement about me always being slanderous for now, because I know you are angry. I never asked you to stop dealing with corruption, never in reference to Driscoll or Calvary Chapel. If I wanted you to stop caring about corruption I wouldnt waste my time here. There is no upside for me here, only accusations and name calling, yet I still come here and support you.

  73. ” The current hot topic in progressive theological circles online is to fight against “patriarchy” ”
    Responsible patriarchy is how our civilization reached the heights it has. The tearing down of this patriarchy just so happens to coincide with the decline of our civilization. Progressives like to argue by making the exceptions (abuse or misuse) the rule and use it to paint the whole thing as bad.

  74. Shaun,

    “Do you always have to be the angry man who cusses at everyone who drives by? I can’t imagine you joyful, it is always anger and bitterness, doesn’t it ever wear you out?”

    Anyone who knows me, knows this is simply not true and is almost slanderous.
    Oddly enough, you rarely comment on anything I write that doesn’t fit your notions, but you’re right in the middle of me on this stuff.

  75. MLD,

    Can you show me somewhere, anywhere, that states that Schluter was fired by Mefferd?

  76. Ok, let me remove the stumbling block. I am sorry said you are an angry man who cusses at everyone, I will use your preferred word – curmudgeon (a bad tempered or surly person) from your comments above. See #17 & #26.

  77. I am going to ask again.

    Why would people be upset over an apology and a chance at reconciliation?

  78. There are so many needs in the world it can be overwhelming. This link discusses the mental health issues of children of our veterans.

    http://www.cbsnews.com/news/collateral-damage-the-mental-health-issues-facing-children-of-veterans/

  79. I guarantee this is a first. I’m linking to a story from Rush Limbaugh’s website. Has to do with his comments regarding the movie “12 Years A Slave.”

    http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/daily/2014/03/17/bill_maher_and_seth_macfarlane_agree_with_me_on_the_oscars_and_12_years_a_slave

  80. E-runner – Did you catch this reference buried in the article. Here is the quote and the relevant source from the LA Times. On this one, Rush was 100% spot on (along with Maher) – even if Jason thinks I’m a racist for saying so.

    All the same, two Oscar voters privately admitted that they didn’t see “12 Years a Slave,” thinking it would be upsetting. But they said they voted for it anyway because, given the film’s social relevance, they felt obligated to do so.

    http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/envelope/moviesnow/la-et-mn-oscar-race-20140304,0,2619113.story#ixzz2wHW2ldUk

  81. Janet Mefferd is a right wing wonk who herself should have resigned her position when she retreated on all the MD stuff and fired Ingrid Schlueter (later called a resignation)

    This story initially broke on my blog when Ingrid commented and said that she resigned. Where are you getting info that she was fired? I don’t believe this at all.

  82. Why would people be upset over an apology and a chance at reconciliation?

    – because he’s done it before
    – because he has a chronic sin pattern of dishonesty (plagiarism)
    – because he failed to apologize for major issues
    – because he has failed to make amends with previous elders he has harmed
    – because he has failed to make amends with former church members he has harmed
    – because it follows the pattern of a narcissist’s publicity stint

    I could keep going . . .

  83. ” Fred Phelps of the notorious Westboro Baptist Church is near death. I fear for his soul far more than those of the people he hated. Fred made a career of striking the rock…”
    *** Very insightful and accurate sir!

  84. Julie Anne,

    Well done!

  85. One of the things that made the evangelist Lonnie Frisbee so loved by so many was the fact that when he brought anyone to the Lord he personally followed up on them and discipled them. Visiting them often and bringing many of them on his incredible journeys that he would call “divine appointments.”

    He knew our names well but never played the “pastor” card.

    I know of one man who post here often that attended Greg Laurie’s church, sitting with his wife faithfully in the front rows of Greg’s church for thirteen years. They eventually left when they realized that he didn’t know them and they didn’t know him…

  86. Steve, I had read the reference already. I know Rush Limbaugh is wildly unpopular with many but saying he’s a racist over the comments he made about the film I think were a stretch. I found it interesting that Maher agreed with him on his take all the whilestating his disdain for Rush.

    I have had problems with a lot of what Rush says but he’s free to opine as anyone else. On this issue though I thought he got hammered unfairly. So it was interesting for me to read his article. BTW I am not a ditto head! 🙂

  87. Well, I am glad to see that Michael and Julie Anne did not disagree with the major portion of my statement “Janet Mefferd is a right wing wonk who herself should have resigned her position when she retreated on all the MD stuff…”

    I can tell that neither of you has worked in high level big business. I cannot number the times that I had to make ‘strategic changes” in high level personnel that we announced as “resignations”.

    No political figure in the White House ever gets fired – they all resign to pursue other interests.

    All the MD turmoil going on around the radio program and the producer “resigns” … ok

  88. Here’s what we all have to look square in the eye. And what I think provides an excellent example of the difference between forgiveness and reconciliation.

    Jesus spoke on this stuff. And we can’t avoid it.

    A guy offends you 7 times in the same day, and each time asks for forgiveness and we have to grant it. (And that is a personal sin against us, not some public figure doing stuff one might despise)

    The standard displayed in the comments above would mean Driscoll has forfeited the opportunity for forgiveness from the Body of Christ. Ever. No matter how genuine a work of God upon his life.

    But that is where we see the distinction with reconciliation.

    So love believes all things. And we are called to love. Of course, one also waits to see if it is just words on a page, or if it is the working of God on a heart. That will take time to show itself, and caution is always the rule of order. Like the Baptist said, “Bring forth fruits worthy of repentance”

    Frankly, I too thought Driscoll wrote a pretty comprehensive statement, and there is much to rejoice over if time shows it all to be sincere. It certainly wasn’t the smarmy media/politician sort of thing we usually read when people are pushed into a corner and have no choice but to say something publicly against their will. And he also laid out some markers that can easily be evaluated as to whether he is keeping to his word here (like moving away from social media for example)

    I just don’t see anywhere in Scripture where anything worse than silence and a “we will see” attitude is justified.

    Example: RiBo claimed a couple days ago that he was changing his tactics towards CC. Some here questioned his sincerity given past experiences. However, he wrote me and a couple guys genuinely seeking our advice. I took him at his word, and offered my advice. I also politely asked him to remove the article about me on his blog. He graciously did so and we exchanged a couple more pleasant emails.

    Baby steps.

    Give Driscoll a chance and at least wait to hear first from those he hurt and find out if indeed he has made an effort to reach out. Likewise wait and see if this is a game and PR control or if maybe God is working a change on his heart above and beyond what you can imagine.

  89. I always tried to keep short accounts myself, it became a habit to apologize for such transgressions like being human, breathing, existing, being in the way, sitting on the wrong pew etc. I once remember I repented of hoping to much. It got to be a problem that apologizing became a way of keeping people off my back and using it as a tool to manipulate. It was not my intention but that is an honest assessment. I was glad to hear Pastor Mark said what he said. As cynical and even vile as I may be, compared to God if you will, I do rejoice when I see people change for the better, even folks I vehemently dislike because that dislike is my issue not his.

    I have been taking a very hard look at myself and at times I really dont like what I see. I do want to change by the power of God by taking personal responsibility if that makes sense. Some of these things are just so deeply ingrained it is very hard to change them. I think the same is true with Pastor Mark I do wish him the best, I also wish he would reconcile with those two elders. Now that would be a true jewel.

  90. MLD – so you are basing that on your own speculation with big business?

    Did you read her comments she originally posted on my blog?

    I was a part-time, topic producer for Janet Mefferd until yesterday when I resigned over this situation. All I can share is that there is an evangelical celebrity machine that is more powerful than anyone realizes. You may not go up against the machine. That is all. Mark Driscoll clearly plagiarized and those who could have underscored the seriousness of it and demanded accountability did not. That is the reality of the evangelical industrial complex.

    And a few minutes later she posted this:

    I’ve read much speculation online, which is understandable given the confusing situation, most of it dead wrong. Being limited in what I can share, let me just say that truth tellers face multiple pressure sources these days. I hosted a radio show for 23 years and know from experience how Big Publishing protects its celebrities. Anything but fawning adulation for those who come on your show (a gift of free air time for the author/publisher by the way) is not taken well. Like Dr. Carl Trueman so aptly asked yesterday in his column at Reformation 21, does honest journalism have any role to play in evangelicalism now? (It was rhetorical.) My own take on that question is, no, it does not. The moment hard questions are asked, the negative focus goes on the questioner, not the celebrity, when there is something that needs scrutiny. Those who have the temerity to call out a celebrity have tremendous courage. The easiest thing in the world is to do fluffy interviews with fluffy guests on fluffy books. So hats off to those like Janet who have the courage to ask at all. And my own opinion on Mr. Driscoll is that despite the bravado, despite the near silence of his Reformed peers and enablers, his brand is damaged, and damaged by his own hand.

    I do not believe that she was fired. You actually think she was fired and then wrote this? No way, José.

  91. brian, it would be, if it were to happen. Whether it will remains to be seen. There’s a difference between hoping something may happen and being optimistic that it will happen.

  92. One should never hope, be optimistic, or in other words cause trouble outside the apologetic. One should always be pragmatic, effective and efficient, all the other stuff is background noise. Of course I dont believe that but well nevermind.

  93. One other thing about Janet Mefferd, she interviewed Ray Comfort and that hack plagiarizes out the yazoo, take his pathetic 50 page addition to Darwin’s origin of the species, It appeared he copied verbatim, he puts Driscoll to shame.

    http://www.patheos.com/blogs/unreasonablefaith/2009/12/ray-comfort-the-plagiarist/

    But he tows the party line in the community and is a nice aussie but the guy is a hack.
    But she wont question him, she just cant stand Driscoll so she jumped the shark to catch him. This is so typical, give folks like Hunt, Comfort, even Lar$on a walk but jump on the young and reformed crowd because its open season on Mark Driscoll. She also has conspiracy folks on her show. The “satanic global conspiracy” of the “gay agenda” gag. I mean the government is not setting up fema camps and other such nonsense but this crowd plays on those fears. Grow up that is my advice.

  94. Julie Ann,
    Aside from what I know “how it works” just listen to what she says;
    1.) “All I can share is that there is…”
    2.) “Being limited in what I can share,…”

    Why the limits? Ingrid is a journalist – we know from her years of working on her dad’s program that she is not shy in opening up on others. Why the limits? I am sure that she was given dough to shut up and leave.

  95. MLD Ingrid Schlueter got in the way of the machine, that sin cant no matter what ever be forgiven. Granted she played many of the end time conspiracy nonsense, folks it is utter nonsense in the extreme. Well we all agree to move past the 9 year old rhetoric, and that is being kind. Listen to the tripe she puts fourth. GAG. I would hope we could move on past such utter tribal superstitious claptrap I really wish we could.

  96. “Ingrid is a journalist” no she is not, so we can move on past that canard.

  97. Okay, so I see. MD does not deserve a chance of mercy or forgiveness from Christians and simply put cannot repent because he is so evil.

    No second chances for that bum.

    Do you people ever read what you write sometimes and compare it to what you preach?

    Reconciliation and Mercy ring a bell.

    Has anyone here heard of the benefit of the doubt and to hope and see where it might lead.

    Just because he hasn’t been a repentant Christian before now must mean you can not act like Christians in the matter either.

    Wow…just wow.

  98. I think the CP reporter may have had just a kernel of truth to speak past week.

    Still love y’all anyways, but you really need to take a look at the hardness you harbor yourselves.
    This may all fall apart, like you say, but that is not an excuse.

  99. Why the limits? Ingrid is a journalist – we know from her years of working on her dad’s program that she is not shy in opening up on others. Why the limits? I am sure that she was given dough to shut up and leave.

    Because Mefferd is her friend? Because Mefferd and her husband both work for SRN and she didn’t want her decision to affect them?

  100. BTW, I do not always agree with Mefferd. On the Driscoll case, she’s got it right. On the CJ Mahaney/Sovereign Grace Ministries abuse cases, she’s got it right.

    However, I have a huge bone to pick with her how she gives Tony Miano air time. Miano is the dude who got taken in by police (not arrested) at Wimbledon and later got arrested in Scotland because his method of evangelism includes dissing on homosexuals. BTW, while in Scotland, he stayed with his friend, Pastor Josh Williamson who moved to Scotland probably a year ago. Within a 2-wk timeframe, Josh Williamson, too, was arrested twice for the same thing: evangelizing and talking negatively about homosexuals.

    So, it’s clear that in Scotland, the political climate to publicly put down homosexuality is not allowed, but these men think they are above the law and common courtesy of the land and push the line in order to draw attention to SELF. All you need to do to prove this is watch how Miano took to social media each time to draw attention to his story – – – tagging his high-profile friends, media connections, etc.

    Miano cries “persecution,” Mefferd buys it, and feeds his ego. It’s not persecution when you choose to use inflammatory language knowing the predicted outcome. It’s called being a fool. Mefferd, for some reason, cannot see this situation clearly.

  101. The Mefferds are as big a part of the giant Christian marketing machine & scheme as the Driscoll publishers and all things commercial and bad. Through SRN they have the corporate agenda to protect.

    Julie Ann, you are always mentioning a bunch of people like these guys in Scotland … are you a pastor stalker? How do you know all of this? – and more important … WHY??

  102. I didn’t start following the Driscoll follies last year.
    I’ve known some of the folks who worked there and were ruined there for years.
    I’ve listened to their stories when the rest of the world was ignoring them and placing Driscoll on the pedestal that is now crumbling beneath him.
    Some of then were there at the beginning and have been removed from MH history to accommodate the ego of Mark Driscoll.
    They haven’t heard a word from him.
    They don’t expect to.
    They are the ones I will listen to for proof of Driscolls repentance, not Driscolls PR machine or his YRR buddies with their lips sewed firmly to his backside.
    The man has hurt people without regard, plagiarized many authors and has demonstrated character unfit for ministry for years.
    He can stuff his generic apologies…

  103. Janet Mefferd is a political conservative.
    I’m not.
    Still, she has been very kind to me and very encouraging about what I do here.
    I like her…a lot.
    I think she’s a person of real character and deeply held convictions and I respect that,even though I don’t always agree with her.
    She’ll pay a cost for her stand on this matter and I think she knows that and has counted that cost.

  104. Well then, i am glad it isn’t you he is trying to reconcile with. You have already judged him.

  105. Derek,

    I’ve judged his behavior and the verifiable facts in the case.
    When those elders, pastors and their families come forward and say he has repented and reconciled with them, then I’ll believe his current words.
    When he acknowledges all his plagiarism, I’ll believe his words.
    Until then, I’ve heard all this before.

  106. However, I have a huge bone to pick with her how she gives Tony Miano air time. Miano is the dude who got taken in by police (not arrested) at Wimbledon and later got arrested in Scotland because his method of evangelism includes dissing on homosexuals.
    ______________________________________________________________________

    Juliane, I don’t know exactly what Tony Miano’s attitude was in Scotland and why you have such a big problem with him but I have asked you before if homosexuality was a sin. You agreed that it was. So with this in mind, I am quite perplexed what your issue is with Miano. Like I said, I don’t know exactly what he did or say but does merely pointing out that homosexuality is a sin equate to “dissing on homosexuals”? Because you have done it yourself.

  107. I’m not too interested in the whole MD saga but from what I gather as far as his coming clean goes is that he has piled up such a huge number of wrongs through the years he’s chosen to come clean on what is currently in the public eye?? Yet at the same time there is still a long list of very real wrongs and people who are being conveniently being ignored.

    If that is the case then I would be skeptical about what he’s saying currently. Saving his hide might be a way some see this while he disregard real events and the people they hurt. Just some thoughts from an onlooker….

  108. Just to throw another thought in here, along the lines of what Derek is saying and some of the others…

    What if we embraced the apology he has offered…What if we took it at face value and in the spirit of grace and reconciliation, we enthusiastically embraced that apology. Then we challenged him, again with a spirit of enthusiasm from this moment, to continue the steps and truly reconcile with those he has wronged?

    I understand there is a huge cynicism because of his actions, and because of the personal wrongs. I understand that…and am not excusing it or saying it needs to be ignored.

    However….if we instantly cry that this is not enough and we expect the wholesale listing of all the wrongs and public apology for all at one moment…I wonder if we simply shut the door to what could be a spark of true repentance.

    I may be naive and ignorant, and I’ll grant that. I don’t really think I’m completely naive…but I do think we are called to be enthusiastic in our embracing something that looks like a person stepping out in repentance or in obedience.

    Maybe he is simply being coercive and manipulative. Maybe it is simply a ploy. But that is on his head and his conscience, right? If someone has asked for forgiveness, and at face value has repented…are we not called to respect that? If he goes on to not follow through on the other things, then there is plenty of time to call it to attention. And I am not saying we instantly give him all our trust, or we stand up and applaud and fawn over him.

    I am saying that we are called to people of grace, and he has apologized and is claiming to be seeking reconciliation in other situations. I think we are called to give him the space of approval to walk that out. If we simply respond with a “Humph, that is not enough” are we not extracting the grace and demanding more works?

    Like Steve said above…baby steps.

    I understand this is asking a lot of those who were personally wronged by him, and I am not in their shoes. However, I think the mark of the Gospel is we do things that seem more than what the world would do…the world would say, “Whatever, that’s not enough.” The Gospel people would say…”Awesome! Thank you for owning it and repenting of that situation. There is more that needs to be done, but that’s an awesome step and we are grateful for it.”

    Again…I understand the cynicism and reluctance. I normally fall in that camp, but I think the challenge of Derek, Steve and others is good…

  109. I would guess that those pastors and elders have just as much an ego and sense of pride that MD does – and that is probably what has caused the conflict. 2 bulls after the same prize.

    Personally, I think they all deserve each other. When I was at OH and the board sold out the congregation for the filthy lucre of have a celeb pastor come in – they all lost their positions and they were all forced out of the church. The price they paid for their own sin.

    This was not Skip’s doing alone – they all had similar motives and were after the same prize … not for the church but for themselves. They all deserved the pox they brought on themselves.

    These MH guys are no different.

    So, have these “victim” pastor / elders (of hell, I can’t even say it with a straight face 🙂 ) have they gone to MD to seek his forgiveness? The bible (probably not used much amongst that group) says if you know a brother has something against you go and make up with them. Have they gone to try and start the reconciliation – I doubt it. They just want to point the blame, and rightfully so, on their blogs.

  110. Isn’t 2 cor seven eleven clear on what true repentance is? In MD’s case, where is the “cleariing of yourself”? where is the part about “proving yourself to be clear in the matter”? Being sorry because you got caught is worldly sorrow.

  111. I understand that, covered, and I know that Michael and others know more than what is out there publicly. I’m not a fan of Mark, but I couldn’t read the comments without being challenged by Derek and Steve and others.

    I think, and this is hopefully what I’m expressing, there is great strength is meeting a repentance with grace and with forgiveness. Even if the repentance if half-hearted. I might be wrong in this, and I’ll accept that rebuke…but hear me out just for a moment.

    I think there is strength is being willing to meet an apology with a robust thank-you.

    If the apology was half-hearted, that response will challenge the person. They may find themselves living up to the apology. Maybe…and I’m thinking of many other situations than just Mark here…maybe they expect to be shunned still and mocked, and being met with grace and sincere appreciation of the apology (I’m not asking for us to play games…but to genuinely accept the apology) may just carve out a space where healing can happen.

    If we meet the apology with cynicism and appeal that it simply is not enough…we continue in the tit-for-tat cycle and there is not much room to wiggle. We just continue keeping track of the wrongs and see if the repentance meets the obligatory sorrow and ashes.

    I’m just nudging that maybe we are called to more as we herald the Gospel. Maybe we are called sometimes to accept the apology at face value and see if some fruit results.

    It may not…and I’m not suggesting we naive. That would have to be dealt with, and that is where I say there is great strength in welcoming an apology. We go in knowing it may be false, but we go in also knowing that the Spirit just might work in the midst of the situation. And we extend grace.

    Again…I am not saying we ignore wrong behavior, and especially in our leaders. It’s messy, and I understand that.

  112. Covered, I believe the scripture you are using was actually written to the entire Corinthian church and not particularly to the one that caused the grief. With this in mind, isn’t it the church as a whole that is responsible for the MD situation and allowing and enabling him in his sin. I’m not excusing MD, but the problem really is a wrong ecclesiastical model for this church.

    2 Corinthians 7:12 reads “So although I wrote to you, it was not for the sake of the one who did the wrong, nor for the sake of the one who suffered the wrong, but in order that your earnestness for us might be revealed to you in the sight of God”.

  113. I agree with Andrew – in fact I greatly agree with him. He said better than what I said in my #113.

    Mars Hills, especially the elders and board or whatever they had, did not take care of their pastor. At the same time, the congregation, by it’s lust for celebrity presence also did not look out for him. They all allowed MD to go crazy.

    Perhaps they all just need a big group hug!

  114. The current Driscoll situation being debated here reminds me of a situation my wife and I went through a few years ago with another family member. The situations are obviously different, but I do think there are some similarities.

    My wife and I were having multiple problems with another family member (and fellow Christian) which probably covered a few years time. As we tried to work through these problems, we would become very frustrated with the other family member as they seemingly were unable or unwilling to see how multiple things they had done or continued to do hurt or angered my wife and I. As time went on, my wife and I would go on to acknowledge and apologize to this family member for specific things we had done wrong that had contributed to our problems. Eventually, we did receive an apology from this family member. Their tone and wording was very nice and they expressed their desire to bring peace to our relationships. The difficulty, however, was that the apology was so general covering anything that they “may” have done, that we didn’t really know if they really understood and were acknowledging anything that they had actually done to hurt and anger us. Or were they just throwing something out there to try to keep the peace while protecting themselves by not admitting to and repenting of any real wrongdoing.

    My wife and I were in a quandary. After seeking advice from several different trusted sources, most of which also so the apology as lacking, we decide to communicate back to the family member that we did accept their apology and would forgive them. At the same time, we also apologized for some additional specific things we had done wrong and described to the family member how we now saw these actions of our as being hurtful to them. We then left it open to them that if they ever wanted to share anything more, we were open to listening. To this day, the family member has chosen to never share anything more with us in regards to anything they did wrong or how she understood it impacted us. If anything, she has made a couple comments since intimating that she doesn’t think she ever did anything wrong it the first place.

    So our relationship is more peaceful to this day, as at least both parties have cut back and/or eliminated the behaviors that were harmful to the other. However, there is still a coolness to the relationship. My wife and I are left wanting as we feel the other family member was really just more interested in coming to peace because they didn’t like having the conflict in their life than they were in really trying to reconcile the relationship. At this point, my wife and I deal with it more pragmatically in not expecting the other person to really ever do anything different and learning to just live with it that way. But it does cause the relationship to continue to suffer to some degree.

    So after that long spiel, what does it have to do with Driscoll. I’m not sure. 🙂 But I would say at the least, this step from Driscoll is at least an encouraging first step. But it would also seem that there is much more that still should be done and let’s see what happens. If Driscoll doesn’t ever go any further than what he has done here, I would say he is probably more concerned with saving some face than he is with really dealing with all the wrongs. But maybe he does continue doing more and admitting to more and working to reconciling with more. And that would be a good thing. Only time would tell. At the very least, in his situation of being a pastor when all these wrongs were done, I would think there’s also another element where there would need to be consideration given towards what kind of discipline should be administered as he failed to uphold the standards of the office. But there doesn’t seem to be anything going on in that regards.

  115. I hope I am not giving the impression that everyone just needs a big hug.

    I’m saying accept the apology, and extend grace…which also asks the person apologizing to live up to that apology and repentance.

    With that…I’m off to clean up *real* messes, from a sick little girl 😉

  116. Sarah – no – it was I who was trying to give the impression that they just need a big group hug. 🙂

  117. 🙂 Some days that is all it takes for me!! Turns the whole day around 😉

    Okay…now I really am gone!

  118. Something funny just happened here…
    Mornings are less than fun at my house.
    I get up early, get Trey ready for school, then drive him across the valley to catch the bus, then drive back.
    I’m away from the computer for an hour or so and can only read comments on my phone.
    I blow through them quickly…until I see Sarah’s.
    Sarah is a person I feel accountable to and when she speaks I listen.
    It’s not that I don’t respect the rest of the commentors here… it’s that there is deep respect toward her through and because of relationship.
    After I read her comment, Trey said I looked like he does when he breaks something. 🙂
    I’ll step back and think some more…maybe all these guys need is a Sarah in their lives…

  119. MLD and Andrew

    I just have a moment to catch up with the conversation. You can say all you want about the wrong model of leadership (I’ll save the big words for another time) and how they didn’t take care of either MD or the community, the big butt is MD has what he wants.

    The MH “board” couldn’t be anything other than what it is because that is what MD wanted. Why make it any more difficult than that. The problem is now that the Titanic is headed for the berg how does one change its course? Obviously they had(have) look-outs, but that’s often only band-aids over the gaping wound to come.

    Oh well, what can we observers learn from MD and the MH events? That is the question I believe God wants His people to explore.

  120. “You can say all you want about the wrong model of leadership”.

    Bob, I am not talking about leadership. Rather I am talking about properly using the 2 Corinthian 11 verse that was brought up.

  121. KevinH @118…. now your 118 is something I can relate to. Instead of talking about a man we’ve never met and has had no impact on us you’re talking real life. As I’ve posted here I’ve had huge issues with a sister who has and is doing wrong and spins things to justify her actions. Reconciliation attempts by me were pretty much met with her middle finger. Unless a miracle happens I’m pretty much done with attempts at reconciliation and will continue to live life with her not included which has been the last eight years as it is.

    I agree with your remarks that you closed with concerning MD which I pretty much tried to communicate a bit earlier. Thanks for sharing.

  122. As far as celebrities go, Driscoll is just not a very sympathetic figure. Smug, cocky, foul-mouthed…that is a good look on the way up, but really bites you in the but on the way down.

    I’m sure God has forgiven Driscoll, and that’s all that matters. If he cools out and becomes a better pastor for it, that is fantastic.

  123. “Oh well, what can we observers learn from MD and the MH events?”

    Absolutely nothing. Sane people already know to avoid such situations. It’s the crazies that gravitate to the MDs and the MHs – and crazies never learn anything.

  124. MLD, These people may appear crazy from the outside looking in but in reality they are deceived and considering MD’s following and success there are more than just a few of them.

  125. Chaplain Mike nailed it:

    But with regard to this letter, it is not my place to question Mark Driscoll’s sincerity, or indeed, express any opinion on something he wrote personally to his congregation.

    Others will not be so reticent. Some will take a cynical view and see this as pure damage control. Others will automatically reject the possibility of change because they wouldn’t believe anything good could come from Driscoll even if a dove descended from heaven and God spoke his approval out loud. Loyal supporters will cheer and urge the haters to stop hating.

    I try to be as fair as I know how to be in a situation like this. The guy wrote a good letter. I hope he follows up on it. I hope he becomes a better pastor. I hope the church becomes more healthy and mature. I hope in forgiveness, reconciliation, and peace.
    ———————————————————
    My only addition to what I already wrote is to say that this letter is not a generic apology, nor is it simply the sort of thing offered when one is caught and wants to continue on in the same sphere he has always been.

    I also see his offer to meet with any who he wronged in the past, so those people that are referenced in the comments here as his victims need to attempt that meeting to see if the willingness is sincere.

    I have no dog in this hunt, but I have had to minister to people who have had their children molested, even murdered, and of course have had to teach those passages that the NT is filled with on this issue….and practice it myself on a couple occasions too.

    (Oh yeah..and to Amen Sarah) 🙂

  126. Does forgiveness mean that you immediately return your trust to that person?

  127. Josh, I forgive MD but wouldn’t trust him with a 10 foot pole.

  128. Andrew & MLD, of course that letter and passage was written to the church but that doesn’t change the message. The message is that Godly sorrow leads to repentance. The actions following that repentance shows a change that needs to take place. Are we going to say that these words don’t apply to the MD situation because Paul was writing to another church? What am I missing?

  129. Trust but verify.

  130. I think we have to affirm any mega-leader who cops to anything publicly, as that is about as rare as a black pastor in Calvary Chapel.

    Then, we have to encourage the leader to follow through and embrace Accountability Jesus and continue on a new and better path.

  131. Where are we told to trust? We are told to repent, we are told to forgive and we are told to restore.

  132. Personally, I trust people. I trust them to do good and bad and to look out for themselves and their own interests.

  133. so those people that are referenced in the comments here as his victims need to attempt that meeting to see if the willingness is sincere.

    I disagree. If MD harmed, and MD is repentant, MD needs to make the move towards restoration. The burden never goes on the victim. The proof of his apology is repentance. Repentance is demonstrated by action. We, the public and his congregation, need to be watching for action as proof of true repentance.

    Man, this stuff bugs me. Quit putting extra burdens on victims. They’ve already gone through enough – – -let’s just hope to shout they have any remaining faith after their spiritual shepherd failed them so badly.

  134. Andrew & MLD, of course that letter and passage was written to the church but that doesn’t change the message. The message is that Godly sorrow leads to repentance. The actions following that repentance shows a change that needs to take place. Are we going to say that these words don’t apply to the MD situation because Paul was writing to another church? What am I missing?
    ______________________________________________________________________

    Covered, No, there is definately application here but the entire congregation is in view not just one person.

  135. If MD was truly repentant about what he has done, he would see that he is unfit for ministry and his appropriate response to that repentance would be stepping down from ministry altogether.

    BTW, MD is going to be teaching college classes with Corban University at Mars Hill – – yup – – a professor. I’ve seen comments from several university professors that Driscoll would have been kicked out of school for his plagiarism. Only in Christiandom do we allow plagiarizing pastors to keep their pastorate and be professors without any repercussions.

  136. “If MD was truly repentant…”

    I love it when people analyze someone else’s repentance. talk about the height of arrogance (and I mean Arrogance with a capital A)

    Julie Ann – you never answered my question earlier if you were a pastor stalker, but you sure are on arrogant, judgmental …

    It’s amazing to me that you can even eat out of the same mouth that you spew judgement.

  137. BTW, MD is going to be teaching college classes with Corban University at Mars Hill – – yup – – a professor. I’ve seen comments from several university professors that Driscoll would have been kicked out of school for his plagiarism.
    ____________________________________________________________________

    This sounds just like Ergun Caner being re-instated as a dean in a college university and being allowed to do the speaking circuit with Veritas at CCs around the country without repercussions. I’m getting used to this.

  138. MLD said, “Julie Ann – you never answered my question earlier if you were a pastor stalker, but you sure are on arrogant, judgmental …”

    Julie Anne was thrust into a national spotlight due to pastoral abuse and misconduct and she stood strong, took a stand and is making a big dent in those issues.

    She is as “called” and as “inspired” as any Lutheran pastor or any pastor for that matter.

    You’re using quite loaded language and Michael, you should remove that or moderate or ban MLD for violating rules you have more strictly applied to others on here.

  139. Let me just say how much I personally appreciate RiBo’s current attitude and content of his comments. It is helpful. It is respectful. I like it. Anyone is free to disagree and present their view. My objections in the past was more about the attitude that RiBo showed, not his input.

    I can read, analyze, and decide for myself the wisdom of any comments. I don’t have to agree, but I appreciate attitude and tenor of the discussion. This is a Christian blog and that creates an expectation of a certain level of civility amongst all participants.

    I am very happy to see the recent comments from him. I find them respectful, helpful, and informative. It is OK to disagree and to argue for your view. We don’t all agree and that is all right.

    Not that it matters at all what I think, but I want to mention publicly that I appreciate very much his new attitude. Thank you RiBo.

  140. Michael, if you ever want to change the tone on here, you have to equally apply your rules to all.

  141. Andrew, I am not trying to argue with you but does that change the message? Is there a passage in our Bible’s that describe a celebrity pastor who is guilty of plagiarism and how he should properly repent? I think it has to do with godly sorrow and the actions that follow repentance.

  142. RB,
    You need to follow more closely – she has been stalking these 2 unknown pastor guys around Scotland … that’s why I asked.

    The other part is the “If MD was truly repentant…” – that my friend is placing herself in the captain’s chair of repentance analysis. LOL – I don’t know if I would want to be caught there. 🙂

  143. JU, thank you and I agree.

    I have been undisciplined in the past. I have chosen strategies and tactics that worked at getting attention to issues, but it is time to switch gears and be more focused and disciplined now that I have that collective attention.

  144. Well, who knew my comment would show up right after RiBo called out MLD. However, RiBo was polite in his note. I enjoy MLD’s input as he often argues the “other side” and that is very useful. I think all our opinions deserve a strong discussion of the various sides. But then that’s why I enjoy RiBo too. He makes us think hard about what we think and write.

    Many on this blog do get edgy and upset, and that often shows the passion and commitment of the commentator. As long as the fire provides light and not just smoke, we all could use a bit thicker skins in the blogosphere.

  145. MLD, you’re probably the key problem in creating toxicity in this community. You troll a lot and try to provoke people in your “blog theater” game to get a reaction and you often provoke those you know will give you the sort of response you are looking for to derail a thread…then you hide and point the finger at the person who goes off.

  146. JU, I disagree with you regarding MLD. I think he should be held to the same standard as others on here and I find his input valuable at times, but he is also the common denominator when it comes to provocation and baiting people to derail a particular thread.

  147. RB, this will be my last comment to you, as I had promised Michael last week, when you stormed off, cut Michael off, told him no more insider tips for him and that you were going CC hunting by yourself.

    “MLD, you’re probably the key problem in creating toxicity in this community.”
    OUCH!!! That would hurt if you were relevant.

  148. JU said, “As long as the fire provides light and not just smoke, we all could use a bit thicker skins in the blogosphere.”

    We could, but most are not comfortable with a free-for-all and Wild West Justice blogging. I can live in that arena, but when one party is allowed to be a gunslinger while others are not allowed to respond in kind…it presents a problem.

    I am willing to follow the rules. They need to be equally applied and MLD’s recent shot at Julie Anne is a recent example where the Standard is being violated and nothing is done about it.

    I could correct MLD’s shot at her using similar language and pejorative etc, but then I’d be accused of ruining a thread and then threatened with moderation or banning, told I’m ruining the blog, killing Michael’s cat, taking food from his family, etc etc.

  149. Covered, I’m not arguing with your point of godly sorrow and the actions that follow repentance. My point is the board of Mars Hill and the congregation also have a responsibility to repent with godly sorrow. Can one honestly allow MD to remain as one’s pastor and not have any culpability in his sin (knowing his sin) is the question to ask.

  150. MLD said, “That would hurt if you were relevant.”

    Not taking the bait, the facts and sources speak for themselves. Just another recent example of your baiting to create controversy and derail a thread.

  151. I don’t have the time or desire to be on the blog 24/7.
    This week I will be off more than on.
    I have and will rebuke MLD when necessary and his comment was out of line.
    My main concern this week is the campaign for Saeed and some personal issues, so there will be things I won’t catch.

  152. MLD, why do you participate? You seem to not have a dog in the fight. You claim no abuse by CC, yet you are critical of CC at times for not being Lutheran in their ecclesiology etc.

    At least with me and Julie Anne and others, we have been personally severely affected by church abuses and our lives have been deeply impacted by them and our passion is sincere and our motivation is pure in terms of real feelings and real issues.

    You seem to just enjoy it as “blog theater” and get some sort of sick pleasure from stirring the pot and then pointing fingers back at those you rile up.

    That is not healthy and it is not right.

  153. Does forgiveness mean that you immediately return your trust to that person?
    ——————————————————————
    Josh, that was my point up there about the difference between forgiveness and reconciliation. The answer is a loud no. Forgiveness is 100% for our spiritual health. I find no contradiction with forgiveness while wanting someone punished to the full extent of the law. Forgiveness and never having another contact with the person. Etc.

    RiBo beat me to the Reagan quote 🙂 @134 That is correct. Love believes all things. But God still calls us to be wise as serpents.

    Julie Anne – It is not my desire to put any extra burden on victims. I am pointing out a simple reality that sometimes people feel the pastor did them wrong when the pastor may not even be aware they have that feeling (or if the body count is high enough, may have forgotten).

    Now, if such people are waiting for a phone call from MD, and if they really want to speak to him in hopes of him hearing their hurt, apologizing, and bringing healing and forgiveness, to glorify Christ….and the people we are talking about are also former elders and church leaders, then I would not think much of an attitude that says “I’m not talking to the guy unless he calls me first – and then continuing to call out a phony repentance without making an effort to speak to the guy

    If MD is showing that fruit of repentance that people want to seek, what burden is it for someone who at least at one time was a leader in the Body of Christ to call the man and say “Can we talk about what happened a few years ago?”

    This isn’t asking rape victims to visit their attacker in prison.

  154. “At least with me and Julie Anne and others, we have been personally severely affected by church abuses and our lives have been deeply impacted by them and our passion is sincere and our motivation is pure in terms of real feelings and real issues.

    You seem to just enjoy it as “blog theater” and get some sort of sick pleasure from stirring the pot and then pointing fingers back at those you rile up.

    That is not healthy and it is not right.”

    …no truer words have been spoken

  155. Julie Ann – you never answered my question earlier if you were a pastor stalker, but you sure are on arrogant, judgmental …

    It’s amazing to me that you can even eat out of the same mouth that you spew judgement.

    Well, blessings on you, too!

    Here’s the deal with Tony Miano. I don’t have to spend time stalking him. I have readers sending me his stuff because they are disgusted that this man represents a distorted Gospel and an angry God. I can take a quick glance at his Twitter and see for my self. I can listen to his videos/broadcasts – it’s all there.

    His social media footprint condemns himself. I don’t need to say a thing. Just like I did on my current post – – I offered very little commentary, yet people have plenty to say about his words/behavior.

    Now, if I was blabbering my opinion without facts to back it up, then you could legitimately call me judgmental. I can confidently say that every opinion stated here by me about Miano can be backed up by Miano’s own cyber footprint.

    Now hey, who really is the judgmental person in this conversation?

  156. Can one honestly allow MD to remain as one’s pastor and not have any culpability in his sin (knowing his sin) is the question to ask.
    ———————————————————–
    Good point, Andrew. As we see repeatedly when a pastor is actually removed for adultery, he just sets up shop down the street and half the original church follow him there. The people who do so, knowing the adultery, definitely are not innocent, but rather enablers.

    At minimum they ought to be forced to sit down with the abandoned wife and any children before they go to the new church.

  157. Julie Anne,
    You miss the bigger point. Why are you bothering with him? So what, he does it different than you. Why do you solicit comments about him? Why do you spread comments about him? Is that the criteria in blogging journalism? If they do it different than you, they are fair game?

    That was my point.

  158. OK, I had to Google Tony Milano – looks like a stand up guy to me.

    http://carm.org/tony-miano

    Ex cop – probably sounds a little like Ezekiel or Jeremiah. Might be a bit rough for PC ears.

  159. You miss the bigger point. Why are you bothering with him? So what, he does it different than you. Why do you solicit comments about him? Why do you spread comments about him? Is that the criteria in blogging journalism? If they do it different than you, they are fair game?

    Because he is harming the Body. He is adding his own ideas and creating and squelching women from ministry they are called to do, but because of his “position of authority,” some don’t and won’t challenge it.

    He is harming the image of Christ when he acts like a bully telling people he doesn’t know they are Jezebels, unrepentant, etc.

  160. LOL – “He is harming the image of Christ when he acts like a bully telling people he doesn’t know they are Jezebels, unrepentant, etc.”

    As I said, Ezekiel – Jeremiah

    I am listening to this talk of his – street preaching – if you think this is the guy who needs to be “taken out” – you are nuts. And you must understand, I do not hold to his evangelical decision theology, but he sounds harmless to me.

    http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=21314165947

    But then, I am listening to the whole thing and not little proof clips people probably send you,

  161. Julianne @104,

    You haven’t answered my question. Is saying that homosexuality is sinful the same as “dissing homosexuals”? What does “dissing homosexuals” mean and when exactly did Tony Miano do this? You almost appear to be putting Tony Miano in the same category as the Westboro baptist church which from the little bit I know seems unfair.

  162. Getting arrested in Europe makes big bucks in the States.
    That’s what I think of Miano.
    I also think Julie Anne is one of the very best bloggers online.
    On to other things…

  163. I put out the challenge to anyone here – listen to the link I posted above – I picked it at random, as I had never heard of this target before.

    I challenge anyone to listen to this message and then tell me how this guy is harming the image of Christ. This guy may be tough on the law, but he includes himself in every example and he gives a clear gospel message and goes on and on about the love of Jesus.

    I guess open air preaching isn’t well looked on here in this PC community… or we just need targets.

  164. Maybe we just haven’t read through all of the articles that Julie Anne has posted on a the subject to hear why she finds him offensive.
    One message does not a ministry make…

  165. MLD,

    I agree that Miano is being wrongly and viciously attacked. I don’t agree with everything he has said but there is no way I can measure his motive in getting arrested in Europe.

  166. MLD:

    What does ONE sermon prove? You could listen to my former pastor and say the same thing. You could listen to Mark Driscoll and say the same thing. You could listen to some of Fred Phelps and say the same thing. All of these folks speak some truth and that truth is what gives them a following.

    You won’t hear Wednesday or Sunday afternoon teachings by my former pastor online; however, you will hear Sunday sermons. Why is that? Because he’s not a fool to put his doctrinally off stuff online. Now, I could have easily have shown you some very bad Miano moments because he had something like 400+ videos up for a while, but he has since removed probably 2/3rds of them.

  167. So now he is equivalent to Fred Phelps – good job Julie Anne.
    Here is another – Good stuff – folks judge for yourself

    http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=21314163903

    “but he has since removed probably 2/3rds of them.” perhaps it’s a bandwidth problem.”

  168. Julianne,
    You have spent a lot of time blasting Tony Miano. What is the worst thing you know about this guy that is so horrible and you need to warn the entire body of Christ of? I’m just a bit confused because I don’t see how bad he is like you do but than again I don’t know that much about him.

  169. OK, I took Michael’s challenge and went to Julie’s page and read all the articles under the Tony Milano link.
    1.) He is not a feminist theologian
    2.) he changed churches and now goes to Grace Community – Johnny Macs digs
    3.) He is twitter friends with Phil Johnson and Fred Butler.

    I say we burn him as a witch!!!

  170. MLD,

    She did not make him equivalent to Fred Phelps.
    That is purposeful misrepresentation of what was actually written.
    I don’t have time for this crap today.

  171. You haven’t answered my question. Is saying that homosexuality is sinful the same as “dissing homosexuals”? What does “dissing homosexuals” mean and when exactly did Tony Miano do this? You almost appear to be putting Tony Miano in the same category as the Westboro baptist church which from the little bit I know seems unfair.

    Actually, I think there are some similarities between Miano and Phelps in some of the videos I’ve seen. Miano is a milder and slightly more PC version of Phelps. They both like to focus on homosexuality. My question to that is why the obsession with that? I believe singling out “homosexuality” is a way of dissing. Why not sexual immorality, in general? Think about this – – if Miano is really wanting to make an impact on the largest amount of people, why would he single out such a minority group when he can make a more general statement by discussing sexual immorality which most people can identify with. The reality is that homosexuality and other forms of sexual immorality are no better or worse than another, yet the way Miano/Phelps focus on it, it becomes divisive. The point in evangelizing is not to be so divisive that people don’t have ears to hear, but to give the truth so they CAN hear.

    You asked when he did this? He definitely did this at Wimbledon and Scotland – – where he was persecuted for Christ’s sake and then had to spend the rest of the “evangelizing” trip recording himself and telling about his story, defending himself on online publications, doing interviews, tweeting/FB. All of this “persecution” also prevented a previously scheduled day of ministry outreach while the team visited Tony in prison. So, what really was going to be an evangelism outreach in Scotland paid for by donors, was a media frenzy. So, hey, what about all of that important evangelism? Real evangelists would have taken advantage of the evangelistic opportunities while there on donor money and stayed away from the social media to keep the focus off of themselves.

  172. Michael,
    I know what I mean when I bring a Fred Phelps or an Adolf Hitler into a conversation. It is done for an effect.

    But that’s OK, I am done for now – the guy is harmless and the 2 messages I posted at random are actually good gospel messages from a street preacher.

  173. OK, now she did
    “Actually, I think there are some similarities between Miano and Phelps in some of the videos I’ve seen. Miano is a milder and slightly more PC version of Phelps. “

  174. Julianne,

    Where is your evidence? I looked at one of the videos of Miano and he did mention homosexuality but included it in with a larger issue of all kinds of sexual immorality and then sin in general. He didn’t single it out any more or less from any other sin in the video I saw. Again where is your evidence? Is just mentioning homosexuality off limits with you? You mention he did it in Wimbledon and Scotland. Where is your evidence? Being arrested is not evidence.

  175. Julie Anne,
    “Why not sexual immorality, in general? Think about this – – if Miano is really wanting to make an impact on the largest amount of people, why would he single out such a minority group when he can make a more general statement by discussing sexual immorality which most people can identify with.”

    If you listen to the 2 random street events I posted you will hear Tony Milano speaking of sexual immorality without even mentioning homosexuality.

  176. Julie Anne,

    You are really reaching aren’t you? Tony doesn’t haven’t to answer to you on what he preaches. Homosexuality is a sin and we as Christians should never apologize for speaking the truth.

    You are really reaching, aren’t you?

  177. I’m gone for the rest of the day, if you do not believe what I say, there are all kinds of documentation including quotes and links at my site under the Miano category on the sidebar. Be sure to read the comments where many of the links and quotes are located. A few of my readers have been collecting documentation.

    One key factor in looking at leaders is looking at their behavior outside of their ministry.

  178. One key factor in looking at leaders is looking at their behavior outside of their ministry.

    He isn’t a leaer – he is a street preacher. I had never heard of him until today, but after doing the research I have a new found respect for him.

  179. Julie Anne,
    Have a good day and thanks for the conversation. It’s funny, this started when I was busting Janet Ms chops and you took issue with her over this Milano guy. 🙂

  180. “OK, I took Michael’s challenge and went to Julie’s page and read all the articles under the Tony Milano link.
    1.) He is not a feminist theologian
    2.) he changed churches and now goes to Grace Community – Johnny Macs digs
    3.) He is twitter friends with Phil Johnson and Fred Butler.

    I say we burn him as a witch!!!”

    Interesting comment…is it supposed to be entertaining? I don’t get it.

    Miano claims to NOW know the real truth re: women in ministry. After spending years at Living Waters as head of the Ambassadors teaching hundreds of women how to present the gospel, witness and testify out in the streets, it is all now wrong.

    He is entitled to his opinion regarding what the scriptures have to say about women and their “role”. He claims that all he taught before regarding women at Living Waters was wrong. He also claims he had to write his recent book, “Should She Preach” because he just couldn’t get his changed views out in a smaller format, such as, for example, a series of blog posts or even a permanent post of his changed views slapped right on the front page of his website for all to see. It had to be a book.

    He claims he wrote the book as an act of repentance to God. THAT is the reason he wrote the book, Just to be clear, it was an act of repentance to God for teaching such grievous error such as…a woman cannot read scriptures to men, a woman cannot read scriptures aloud to a mixed crowd as that is having authority over men, a women really should beware of sharing the gospel with men, a woman cannot share the gospel in the streets because she may be heckled/insulted and then lose her femininity/gentle and quiet spirit that God commands she have at all times while trying to engage the heckler. She needs to stay in her role.

    This new view of women that Miano has is quite important to him. The book was an act of repentance, according to him. But I am curious about a repentance claim that has a fee attached to it. If I were to have an epiphany about something I had previously believed and taught and felt badly enough about it to claim I was writing a book as an act of repentance to God…I can guarantee you I would not have the nerve to charge people to read about my repentance. I could not say…Dear Lord, I repent of what I previously taught and I am going to write about it publically as an act of repentance to You. What do you think, Lord, $10.99 hardcover? I would post it for FREE on my blog. He never did that. In fact, he had a four part series entitled, Is The Open Air Preaching Community in a Down Grade? which went into detail about his changed views on women but he took it down and is nowhere to be found.

  181. Diane, very good – that is why I stated it as #1 – “He is not a feminist theologian.”

    But he was taken to task pretty good for having Phil Johnson and Fred Butler on his Twitter list. (I don’t twitter, so I don’t know what it is called. That is a BIGGEE in Julie land.

  182. Sarah and Steve were much better at stating how I am feeling about the MD thing.

    Reconciliation will never happen if one party doesn’t want to come to the table.
    Then it looks like the parties that MD publicly stated he wishes to reconcile with are actually only out to bring him down.

    I see where God wants us to reconcile in the bible.
    I don’t see where he wants us to extract our version of vengeance.

    Julie Ann said “MD needs to make the move towards restoration. ”
    What exactly do you call a lot of that letter?
    So the letter has been out one day and all isn’t reconciled so you just reject it and judge his repentance?
    MLD may have gone a bit far, but he was right about you judging the man’s repentance.
    Time may tell me wrong, but it has been one day only.

    See this is what concerned me from the original comments here.
    Christians should always try for reconciliation when they see the chance.
    We should take that chance.
    Someone needs to reach out and see if he is truly ready to reconcile or nothing happens.
    I have seen a lot of articles here for many months on the subject of reconciliation.
    Time to practice what we preach.

    Yes, you need to be wary, but full scale rejection…no or nothing ever changes.
    Wouldn’t it be nice if reconciliation actually happened and you didn’t have to commit a lot of time watching MD’s every move.
    I say go for it and forget the naysayers.
    Maybe it falls apart, but then again maybe it doesn’t.

  183. So the woman at the well in John 4 had no business telling her village about the Saviour. The women at the empty tomb had no right telling the disciples about the risen Lord. Seriously ?

  184. Here is Tony’s comment about his book.

    From the Author: The question I believe I biblically answer in “Should she preach?” is should a Christian woman preach the gospel in the open air, in the public square? If not, to what extent should a Christian woman involve herself in public evangelism? If your answer to the questions is, “What difference does it make? Whether a Christian is a man or woman shouldn’t matter,” then you are not thinking biblically. If your answer to the questions is, “Evangelizing on the streets, in any manner, is no place for a Christian woman,” then you are not thinking biblically. To my sisters in Christ who will read this book: I love you. I want God’s very best for you. I want you to serve Christ Jesus our King to the best of your ability, through the unique Holy Spirit-enabled gifting He has assigned to you. And I want you to evangelistically serve Him—in the church, at home, at work, at school, and on the streets—with great joy. And I want to help you in this last area, your evangelistic service to Him, with my whole heart. I ask that you not judge this book by its cover. At the same time, I ask that you do not, please do not, read this book with an open mind. Read this book with an open Bible. I hope the presupposition you bring to this book and everything else you read is a simple one: “The Bible is true regardless of what I think or believe. I can be wrong; Tony can be wrong; but the Word of God is never wrong.” So, read this book to the very end with an eye on the Scriptures, with humility of mind, with a prayerful heart, while desiring to be conformed to the image of God’s Son—Jesus Christ, the Lord.

    http://shop.onemilliontracts.com/Should-She-Preach-Biblical-Evangelism-for-Women-By-Tony-Miano-BK-SSP.htm

    Again, I don’t think he is being properly represented in the above comments.

  185. Tony Miano is filled with pride! I have watched his videos, where he stood in front of an abortion clinic. A young man drove up and dropped his wife off, she worked there. The young husband was confronted by Miano as he was leaving the clinic. Miano got in this guy’s face, making horrific accusations against the guy; Miano told the guy he was a bad father! The man’s young daughter was in the back seat the whole time. Miano enraged this man to the point that he got out of his car and was ready to strike Miano….and rightly so. Through it all, there was NO gospel presentation given…NONE. When this video was brought to the attention of many on the internet, it mysteriously disappeared,
    He argues with sinners on twitter, you can read about that here – http://iamhis-lyn.blogspot.com/2014/02/would-you-call-this-evangelism.html

    He also purposely points out only two sins, abortion and homosexuality. What about gossip, what about pride? Why does he only speak out against these two sins? Strange.

    He recently asked for 2400.00 in donations right around Christmas time for payroll, even though those who work with him have stated they do so on a voluntary basis. There was no tweet prior to this or after that sought money for payroll….very very suspicious. He claims to be retired from the LA county deputy sheriff’s office after 20 years of service, however, he quit after 13 years and stayed on as a volunteer for the next seven. Voluntary service doesn’t count towards years served or retirement. { http://www.police-writers.com/miano.html}
    So, he actually quit his job to start a ministry, one in which he is known for arguing with the unregenerate more than he is speaking of Christ. Perhaps he needs to find a job and yell at people in his spare time, and his own dime.
    When confronted concerning his yelling at people, especially by a woman, he insults. He calls women ‘manly’ who dare expose his sin of pride. He reeks of a patriarchal mindset – one that seeks to oppress women and silence them. He insists women are NOT to speak of Christ- that it’s a teaching, a position of authority, which only men possess. He could NOT be more wrong. Here is a review of his book – should she preach – http://rhoblogy.blogspot.com/2013/12/should-she-preach-by-tony-miano-review.html

    Miano is a mixed bag full of contradictions, he seems to be grasping at straws in his ministry. One day, he sells sermons from Spurgeon and Edwards that he’s recorded. I find it strange that anyone would take someone else’s work and charge for it. The next day,he’s reinventing himself, claiming to approach others with a ‘father figure’ demeanor as opposed to his ‘lawman’ demeanor – http://www.crossencounters.us/2013/11/honoring-christ-as-holy-in-my-heart-and.html. Now he’s decided to street preach without elevating himself…why do we need to know every move he makes? Why does he constantly promote himself? Why does he constantly record videos, type tweets, etc that reek of ‘I’, and ‘me’? How is that any different than the Pharisees of Jesus’ day?
    He purposely gets arrested – http://5ptsalt.com/2014/01/09/why-tony-miano-really-got-arrested-again/
    Then he calls that persecution. Good grief, you CAN preach the Gospel without specifically pointing to homosexuality – Jesus did and so did the apostles. They were arrested, but not because they spoke out against homosexuality. It’s because they spoke of Christ as well as sin.

    We are so quick to uphold men and defend them, but we do NOT take the time to investigate their ministry. There are many who adhere to a ‘reformed’ view and yet, their hearts are like steel. They have NO love for the lost, they argue with them and frustrate the sinner. Miano has done this countless times, and he’s removed EVERY video that proves him to be guilty! If God has called this man to preach, he would NOT be begging for money, nor would his last church refuse to lay hands on him. – http://us6.campaign-archive1.com/?u=93d7436b921a7ebd3d2ddbf42&id=7e11448fd4
    From the article – “. At the same time, they found aspects of my evangelistic gifting and ministry (namely, open-air preaching) philosophically incompatible with the evangelistic direction the elders have set forth for the Faith Community Church family. That being the case, the elders determined they could not lay hands on me and commission me to serve Faith Community Church as an evangelist.” So, instead of accepting this and stepping down off his elevated step ladder, he leaves this church and seeks out another one that will support his yelling at people.

    We are all called, male and female, to be humble and to love one another. We are all called to speak of Christ to the unregenerate. I am sick and tired of uneducated men like Miano trying to slap women down and silence them, and I’m sick and tired of Christ being shamed and reproached by Miano as he yells at sinners and gets in their faces. He’s all drama, no love, no compassion for the lost. He only focuses on homosexuality and abortion, as I’ve already stated- his narrow ministerial outreach does more harm than good. Too bad arrogance and being puffed up has gripped the visible church at an alarming rate. Is it any wonder America sinks deeper in depravity while many defend garbage like Miano’s ‘ministry’ as that of being ‘of God’…what an insult to a loving Savior who never screamed at anyone, except the religious Pharisees. We have many religious Pharisees in our day as well. Men who defend men, regardless of their actions. There’s ALL kinds of abuse taking place in the visible church, verbal abuse, sexual abuse, and yet, NO MAN has the backbone to speak out. BUT, they defend ministries like Miano, and speak harshly to those who expose the errors and sin of it. We need to STOP the ‘buddy system’, the Pharisee-type religion that runs rampant in America. Men upholding men rather than Christ, loving notoriety, power, money….sickening. It’s time to reject pretty much ALL that calls itself ‘Christian’ in this nation and get back to following Christ and Him alone. There’s too much sin in the visible church; too much pride, too much love of money, and lastly – love of SELF!

  186. Well I have not read Milano’s book, but going by the scriptures I would have to say that God has called women to preach the gospel, just as He has called men to preach the good news. May His will be done.

  187. MLD, you are looking at a book by its cover. You are not looking at behavior. You will not find much or any bad behavior by reading his book or listening to his sermons where he presents himself in the best light. Miano follows a similar pattern I’ve seen by other bully leaders. Yes. I am calling him a leader because that is what he proclaims himself to be as a preacher.

    Ok, I’m in between errands and will respond to the 2/3 deleted videos when I can get back home and provide a link.

    As far as Fred Butler is concerned – go to my blog and search his name and you will find back story with screen shots in the BGBC archives. Fred Butler has behavior similar to Miano and it’s not pretty. Key word – behavior. I keep harping on that. It’s very revealing.

  188. “He is not a feminist theologian.”

    Feminist? 🙂 One would need to define feminist first.

    “But he was taken to task pretty good for having Phil Johnson and Fred Butler on his Twitter list. (I don’t twitter, so I don’t know what it is called. That is a BIGGEE in Julie land.”

    I am not sure what you mean by BIGGEE, but I do know she has a history with these two and not in a favorable way. I bet if you experienced what she had you might take pause as well, perhaps?

    It is of no concern to me who Miano has on his twitter list, really, why bring that up?

    There is enough that I find simply bizarre about him. twitter friends aside, for example his rigid patriarchal views (although he does not work for a living- his wife provides the income for him and that seems to be ok to him), frequent self-promotion on social media to what I consider an outrageous degree (but one would have to watch it over months to see it), his frequent referral to how he humbly feels this or humbly accepts that- a humble person doesn’t mention being humble, does he?, his begging for money online writing such things as…need $2400 in two weeks to meet payroll (what payroll?–he has volunteers), need $1600 in 3 days — can you help? Three days? These things are disturbing to me, ymmv.

  189. Nonnie – that is exactly what he says in that passage I posted above.

    “And I want you to evangelistically serve Him—in the church, at home, at work, at school, and on the streets—with great joy.”

  190. Diane,
    You don’t need to quote the whole blog article that lyn posted. I read all the comments too – they were almost exclusively you and lyn. 🙂

    But I am done – I am not going to be known as the one arguing with the ladies.

  191. MLD, if that is what he says, then I have no argument with that. That was not the impression I got from Diane’s post and I was responding to her post.

  192. “Here is Tony’s comment about his book.”

    MLD, with all respect, I cannot believe you are this simplistic in your thinking.

    What exactly did you expect him to write regarding a book that many women would possibly take offense to and not purchase? Remember, his repentance towards God comes with a price tag, so he obviously wants women to purchase it. Why offend them at the onset?

    Should he have written….you women may NOT preach, teach, have authority over men or read the scriptures, so get over it and into your gentle and quiet spirit role and stay there… everything I wrote in my above comment that he believes? Should he alienate his female audience before he can persuade them to purchase his repentance…I mean, book?

    Yes, he says “Tony could be wrong”, but does he think he is? Does he really think that the authors he interviewed for the Should She Preach book…Phil, Steve Lawson, all the rest are wrong too? Do you think he thinks Phil and JMac his new pastors are wrong as well? I do not think so. So which Tony should I believe?

  193. Diane,
    “MLD, with all respect, I cannot believe you are this simplistic in your thinking.”

    Actually I am. You should give it a try some time – life ends up being simpler. Why have you made it your life, to talk about Tony … I have gone 65 years without knowing of this man and now my life has become more complicated.

    To the “simplistic thinking life”! – L’chaim

  194. “Nonnie – that is exactly what he says in that passage I posted above.

    “And I want you to evangelistically serve Him—in the church, at home, at work, at school, and on the streets—with great joy.”

    Well…what does he mean by evangelistically serve Him? It means within the restrictions he thinks the bible commands and with the extra rules he imposes.

    And that means women may pass out tracts–being careful not to engage A MAN with the gospel because it may not be appropriate, a woman may pray for an oa preacher, a woman may teach other women, a woman may have one on one convos with another woman about the gospel, she can teach children, and women are especially needed at abortion clinics for any woman who may be convicted by the male preacher )so she may be comforted and consoled by a female and not a male preacher).

  195. I’ll choose the better way, MLD–at least the better way for me as a woman.
    Being wise as serpents and gentle as doves and looking to what is beneath the whitewash on the tomb.

  196. MLD

    It’s high time we got back to following Christ ALONE, and STOP defending men who are sinful, prideful, arrogant, offensive, divisive, and seek to exalt ‘self’ and not Christ.

    Christianity in America is a joke! Men like Miano are partly to blame, and those who uphold him join in sharing that blame. It takes TOO much work to investigate, it’s easier just to side with them. Even Martin Luther had many faults, enough that should cause anyone not to admire him. Sadly in our day, men write books about dead guys, love to be called Calvinists, and forget they are called to follow one and only one – Christ. The visible church is one I want no part of, I certainly do not admire Luther, nor Calvin, or any mortal man. Christ is my first Love! Praise God for His marvelous grace, and the gift of discernment; a gift too many lack in our day.

  197. Well, what can I say – I have spent the day posting his open air sermons only to be told, what he is saying is not what he is meaning.

    I then post what he writes, only to be told what he writes is not what he means.

    This goes back to the beginning where Julie Anne said that MD did not say what he said when he apologized and when she claimed, “if he were really repentant.”

    I guess my simplistic approach is not good anymore. I need to be led by the hand and have the inspired interpretation as given by these ladies.

  198. “Actually I am. You should give it a try some time – life ends up being simpler. Why have you made it your life, to talk about Tony … I have gone 65 years without knowing of this man and now my life has become more complicated.”

    🙂

    My life? You crack me up.

    You should have seen me with CJ Mahaney and the mess that was and currently is SGM. Miano has been nothing.

    Someone’s got to get to the ugly under the professing Christian rug, or are we supposed to ignore everything and just be simplistic?

  199. “I guess my simplistic approach is not good anymore. I need to be led by the hand and have the inspired interpretation as given by these ladies.”

    Now you are being silly again…lol.

    Just pray for discernment and the Lord will graciously give it.

  200. lyn,
    I have not once defended Tony. I don’t know him – I know only the 2 recordings I listened and what I read on the CARM website.But then I don’t brag about having the gift of discernment like some do.How do I argue against one who claims direct discernment from God. yes, the rest of us are lacking.

    My defense is against you bomb throwers.

  201. Diane,
    Get into a good church and just walk away from the SGM and Milano stuff. When do you get up each day and put on that baggage? Walk away from it – be free.

  202. “Just pray for discernment and the Lord will graciously give it.”

    That’s what the Mormon’s say when they stand on my door step.

  203. lyn, I’m sorry, but Christianity in America is not a joke. There are some who poorly represent Christ but they are not the majority. There are many godly people in our nation flying below the radar doing the work of the gospel. I have seen great strides in the approach to mental health which is something I am focused on. Christians are out there feeding the poor, clothing the homeless, first on the scene in time of disaster. Not all believers are a joke. FAR from it.

  204. Lyn, Diane, Julianne, the only evidence I have actually seen other than the third hand diatribes against Miano that you posted are the sermons that MLD posted. Over all the sermons seemed pretty good. Is this all you got because if so maybe you should ease up a bit?

  205. Investigating phony ministries and exposing them is hardly a ‘bomb thrower’. I urge you to do some investigating for yourself; take NOTHING at face value. Deception is rampant, and yet, most will not bother being concerned with it. How sad there is no desire to speak up and out, and no desire to warn and expose.

    Let me boast in Christ and Him alone – Lyn

  206. Here is a whole page of his sermons – that is all I can go by. Perhaps he is a wife beater, I don’t know.

    http://www.sermonaudio.com/search.asp?SpeakerOnly=true&currSection=sermonsspeaker&keyword=Tony^Miano

    These sermons are not in a comphy church – he is out on the street.

  207. erunner,

    Christianity IS a joke, look around! The ‘visible church’ is filled with little understanding of God’s word or His attributes. You gauge Christianity to be ‘healthy’ because some feed the poor, and clothe them? What about the multitudes that perish without Christ? WHat about the rampant sexual immorality? Adultery? Gossip? Pride? Idolatry? In other words, sin is increasing everywhere, America doesn’t need just a ‘social gospel’. You can feed them and you should, but the greatest need of a sinner is salvation. They need to hear the Gospel!! Don’t stop with the social gospel, show them their need for Christ!
    America is filled with sin, wickedness, depravity. I am more concerned with souls than I am with temporal needs. Eternity is far more pressing than the here and now.

  208. lyn @ 210 “Investigating phony ministries and exposing them is hardly a ‘bomb thrower’.”

    Sadly this is what it has become in many case. Who hasn’t been exposed in ministry these days? There are some who go as far as casting judgment on the eternity of other believers which is very thin ice to walk on.

    Those who enter this type of ministry must do so in a way that glorifies Christ and not simply because there’s an axe to grind. It seems some are only content when they’re in the middle of controversy and arguing with others.

  209. This is funny. The conversation began attacking Tony because he taught an angry Christianity … LOL, listen to lyn.

  210. sorry lyn, I have seen God at work and reject your broadbrush approach. Many are called, few are chosen. The road is narrow that leads to eternal life and wide is the path that leads to destruction. Remember that you are talking about God’s people. I see the world decaying around me. Have seen it for 59 years. That doesn’t weaken my belief in God or in those who faithfully serve Him.

  211. Well, I’m making a spinach quiche which is just about ready to be devoured!! I guess I’ve exposed myself as a glutton. :mrgreen:

  212. I am adamant about exposing men like Miano who forbid women of speaking of Christ, and you should be too. You see me as ‘angry’; but I know me better than you do. I have presented links, I suppose it would be too much trouble to check them out wouldn’t it? It’s easier to attack me rather than do any follow up. Enough time wasted on that.

    erunner, I know what you are saying. I do see a lot of ‘bomb throwers’ which is why I encourage others to investigate. You also say ‘There are some who go as far as casting judgment on the eternity of other believers which is very thin ice to walk on.” You are right, I’ve seen Miano do this VERY thing! He has pointed to several Christians and told them they are NOT saved, based on his opinion! Amazing.

    I am with you 100% when you say “Those who enter this type of ministry must do so in a way that glorifies Christ”. As I ‘travel about’ the internet, there is SO much pride and SO little love and humility displayed. Honestly, I think it’s best to get away from the internet and just sit at the feet of Jesus. His love, His compassion, His truth should be all we desire. He said “By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.” John 13:35 Apparently, this verse is one of the most overlooked verses in all the Bible.

  213. “ “Just pray for discernment and the Lord will graciously give it.”

    That’s what the Mormon’s say when they stand on my door step. ”

    LOL, so what? I trust in God’s word. 1John 4:1, Hebrews 5:14, Phil 1:9-10, john 7:24, 2Cor 11:13-15, 1Thess 5:21, Matt 10:16, James 1:5, Matt 7:18-20…etc.

  214. Good having some new commenters on the blog. Take it easy on them, MLD 🙂

  215. “There are some who go as far as casting judgment on the eternity of other believers which is very thin ice to walk on.”

    erunner- You should ask Tony Miano about that. He has done that very thing – determining which professing Christians are saved, not saved or barely saved; who is an enemy of the cross, who is a blasphemer. These are professing Christians he is speaking about (although, Miano did write a post while at Living Waters prohibiting doing that very thing while employed there).

  216. lyn, I’ve been part of this site for several years and have read things that shook me up as I couldn’t conceive of corruption in the ministry. After all these leaders were God’s representatives and mouthpieces. I’ve come a long way since then as my eyes have been opened to the reality of the world and of the church.

    I urge you to not see the cup as half empty. God is at work and many times it’s not among the most public of ministries. I realize who I am, what I’m capable of, and where I came from. Without God’s grace I amount to a big fat zero.

    I am probably just as cautious as you or anyone else because of what I’ve seen and read about. My job is to not let the bad take my eyes off of my personal walk with God and the fantastic people who make up the church. God bless.

  217. “Lyn, Diane, Julianne, the only evidence I have actually seen other than the third hand diatribes against Miano that you posted are the sermons that MLD posted. Over all the sermons seemed pretty good. Is this all you got because if so maybe you should ease up a bit?”

    Andrew, seriously? What is it with some of the men commenting here? Why is it my job to present what Miano is or isn’t to you?

    Do your own homework, as I did.

    I find that unless/until people want to really know something FOR THEMSELVES, and research the thing for themselves, they tend to dismiss what is presented to them (for the most part, there are exceptions, of course. Hope you are one of them.).

  218. Diane, I have no interest in Tony as I’ve never heard of him. I’m very up on Living Waters as I attended church with Ray Comfort for at least a dozen years. If Tony has done as you’ve described then I’d say he needs to back off and consider his approach.

  219. My only question.
    Is he affiliated with Milano cookies? Cause those things are delicious!

  220. Oh my bad…Miano.
    Continue

  221. “Diane,
    Get into a good church and just walk away from the SGM and Milano stuff. When do you get up each day and put on that baggage? Walk away from it – be free.”

    Thanks for the advice– never have been involved in SGM or an authoritarian type of church, so was fascinated, amazed, shocked not only by the scandal, but by how the leaders dismiss
    things…you know, kind of a simplistic approach instead of an investigative one.

    But I am doing well all while not walking away from the SGM/Miano (not Milano) stuff. The more I learn about “that baggage”, the freer I am.

  222. “Do your own homework, as I did.”

    I did, I came up with a couple of hundred of his sermons … isn’t that enough?

    Perhaps if you did homework like I did and listen to the complete context of his talks instead of little passed around sound bites, perhaps your opinion would be different.

    You guys are a quoting from the same copy / paste web sites. no original imput. I on the other hand am listening to the man talk – his complete talks.

    And I will say again, I do not agree with his theology / doctrine at all… snicker, imagine trying to persuade people to “accept” Christ. But at least he is doing something.

  223. Diane, I have no interest in Tony as I’ve never heard of him. I’m very up on Living Waters as I attended church with Ray Comfort for at least a dozen years. If Tony has done as you’ve described then I’d say he needs to back off and consider his approach.

    I very much appreciate Ray’s post re: women in ministry. He is very gracious…says even if you do not see it as he does, rejoice that the gospel is preached…by whomever.
    Amen to that.

  224. shows you what I know – I have been calling him Milano all day. 🙂

    See, he is irrelevant – shed him from your life. I will bet by tomorrow morning I won’t even remember his name … since I just learned it.

  225. Good points erunner, I agree. I am a big fat zero without that same grace. Yes, God is at work. Overall, if you look at America, it is a nation sliding further into the abyss. That doesn’t mean God is not at work, I know He is. Things will indeed continue to deteriorate until Christ comes, men will wax worse and worse, wickedness will increase, and the love of many will grow cold. God’s word is so true.

    I have seen tweets from Tony Miano where he specifically states to a Christian that they are not saved, or may not be saved. Very dangerous man…

    Here is a link showing Miano’s arrogant response to a pastor from Scotland after Miano’s most recent arrest – http://storify.com/DefendTheSheep/how-tonymiano-responds-to-article

    Here is a link where Miano states another Christian – Joel Taylor – probably isn’t saved – http://spiritualsoundingboard.com/2014/01/26/persecuted-street-preachers-pastor-josh-williamson-tony-miano-chuck-oneal-and-humility/

    Here is the post by Joel Taylor that caused Miano to deem him as ‘probably not saved’ – http://5ptsalt.com/2014/01/09/why-tony-miano-really-got-arrested-again/

    If you disagree with Tony, he declares you to possibly be not saved. If you are a woman, like Julie Anne who’s commented here, you definitely are not saved.

  226. MLD wrote:

    “I did, I came up with a couple of hundred of his sermons … isn’t that enough?”

    I am looking at fruit, not only his words. Behavior. I think we are supposed to take that into consideration.

    “….instead of little passed around sound bites, perhaps your opinion would be different.”

    Oh, at this point, I doubt it. Miano would have to do a lot of changing. I have seen too much behavior that is concerning.

    “I on the other hand am listening to the man talk – his complete talks.”

    I have done my homework, almost a year’s worth now. You admitted you just found out today who Miano was in your 12:43 comment. 🙂 Thanks anyway.

    You also said at 3:31, “But I am done – I am not going to be known as the one arguing with the ladies.”

    Yet here you are.

  227. If you disagree with Tony, he declares you to possibly be not saved. If you are a woman, like Julie Anne who’s commented here, you definitely are not saved.
    _____________________________________________________________________

    I’ll check out your links above when I have time, but seriously your comment above is pretty hard to believe. Where is your proof that Miano believes Julianne is unsaved? On the other hand, its pretty obvious you don’t think Miano is saved.

  228. Well, I suggested way up the thread that we burn him as a witch and that wasn’t good enough for you ladies either.;-)

    “Behavior. I think we are supposed to take that into consideration.”

    Are you actually looking at bad behavior (is the man an immoral person? does he rob old ladies? is he not nice to his mother?) or are you objecting to his words.?

    As I said earlier, Ezekiel and Jeremiah were pretty rough around the edges.

    Ezekiel did his street preaching in the nude and cooked his meals out in the open using cow poop for fuel. What is it you are seeing Miano doing – I am very interested in this bad behavior.

  229. Andrew, go to Julie’s blog, or better yet, contact her and she will provide you with the tweets that say so. This should help you out – http://spiritualsoundingboard.com/blog-info/sticks-and-stones-a-list-of-names-others-have-called-me/

  230. One more thing Andrew, I never said Tony is lost, I will say his fruit is very questionable.

    As Diane has stated, there’s much out there, IF one does the digging. I have seen many tweets, keek videos, and posts that continually show Miano promoting himself. He isn’t the only one that’s guilty of this, many celebrity preachers today promote their books, their conferences, their teaching series, etc. It seems that it’s no longer about Christ and all for His glory; man wants his share.

  231. lyn,

    I stand corrected. I’m not defending Miano’s tweets. But why got to war over tweets? I would have to go back and read all the context, etc.. for each and every tweet and I got better things to do than that. But I am with MLD. I never heard of this guy until you brought him into the spot light and why bother so much with this?

  232. “Well, I suggested way up the thread that we burn him as a witch and that wasn’t good enough for you ladies either.;-)”

    MLD are you still here?

    I failed to find that funny the first time. It is not a point of what is “good enough” for me or us ladies, as it is not my desire to see Miano destroyed, ruined or run out of town, nor would I joke about it. Your trite and somewhat condescending remarks are not helpful…deflective, but not helpful. They do not affect me negatively except, sadly, to catch a glimpse of how you think.

  233. “… to catch a glimpse of how you think.”

    Diane, Lyn, MLD trolls most of the time. He’s mostly, self-reportedly, into what he calls “blog theater” and takes pleasure in tweaking folks w/o any real cohesive set of principles or agenda, just general trolling for trolling sake, unfortunately.

    He does appear to have more of a sincere position theologically when he argues his quasi-Lutheran angles…but this sort of stuff? Beware the troll.

  234. Thanks RiBo.

    Andrew,

    It isn’t just his tweets that are troubling, for example he claims this ““Women engaging in one-to-one conversations – so long as those are appropriate conversations – I feel that while it is not a sin per se for a woman to engage a man in a conversation, there are a number of reasons why I think a woman should avoid that. Certainly any hint of impropriety, remaining above reproach, and you can so quickly, I think, in those conversations, cross the line from sharing the gospel one to one to sharing the gospel in a small group, exercising authority over men. But, no, God has called every Christian to go and make disciples.” Who is he to make such a claim, and where is Scriptural support for this? This reeks of oppression. No man has a right to tell a woman who she can and cannot speak with. You can watch a video where Miano says this, and more, at http://spiritualsoundingboard.com/2014/03/17/learn-to-discern-can-women-read-scripture-aloud-to-men/

  235. Oh my – I’m chomping at the bit to get those tweets and links, but I’ve got to do the mom car pool thing, go to choir, and my caboose kid wants his burrito. I’ll be back in a few hours and hopefully I will find them and post them. Miano has called me unrepentant, a manly woman, all kinds of names. He calls people rude names – people he doesn’t even know. This behavior is bad and unacceptable for a street preacher, someone representing Christ in a public way. He does this public on Twitter. Unfortunately, he removed some of the worst videos, but they were obnoxious – -just harassing unbelievers at an abortion clinic. You did not see love, you did not see anything but a rude and angry man.

    Oh, and btw, he knows this is true. He has pulled back from social media twice that I recall because he knows his mouth/words gets him in trouble – – but then he starts in again.

  236. I have no clue who Tony Miano is, and honestly I’m not that concerned about it. i’ll take your word that he shouldn’t be listed to.
    I will say, in my experience, street preachers are usually a bit “unhinged”.

  237. RiBo~

    “Beware the troll.”

    Trolls can learn in the midst of their trolling. I don’t mind them at all. 🙂

  238. MLD is not a troll. He’s a good guy who can get a bit too wrapped up in the back and forth at times.

  239. Diane said, “Trolls can learn in the midst of their trolling. I don’t mind them at all.”

    LOL, good point, but don’t get your hopes up about MLD. He hasn’t learned much in 5 years I’ve seen him here.

  240. I don’t see MLD as a troll. He was part of Ocean Hills church when Skip Heitzig came in and ruined it. He left OH when he was in a teaching position due to his convictions that were changing that led him to become a Lutheran. So he’s got first hand experience with Skip Heitzig and CC.

    MLD has always been provocative in his posts. He enjoys debating and challenging others although he seems to anger some with his direct and unapologetic approach. Maybe he crosses the line at times but that’s been the history of this blog. Lots of provocation, people getting mad and storming off only to return while MLD continues to do what he does.

  241. RiBo, Using you as an example MLD has a ton of leeway before he is to ever be banned. I’m sorry but I have to chuckle when I see you pushing the idea he’s a troll.

  242. Only a troll to RB who is a flat out non christian relativist who can not stand Christians who can articulate what they believe.
    He trolls looking for others to join his crazy corp whose motto seems to be “well, If Jesus Christ really did live” or “if Jesus Christ were really god” – both comments are common and show that he denies the faith.

    RB, trolls to destroy people’s faith, who denies God in the OT as a meanie who lusts after genocide.

    Therefore he hates the site of me here standing for the truth of the gospel.

    But look, my whole conversation today was one of trying to give the other guy MD and Milano the benefit of the doubt.

  243. OK, then I can go back to responding in kind then if there’s no problem…right?

  244. The Phoenix Preacher double standard raises its head yet again…and the usual suspects get smoked out.

    At least Steve and I have reached a detente. Still a few hardliners in here.

  245. I should clarify – a moral relativist. He does recognize 2 + 2 = 4.

  246. MLD, what is the correct gospel? What do you mean when you state “the truth of the gospel”…can you quantify that for me and give me specifics?

  247. You “trolled” me first. You fired the first shot twice today.
    Don’t talk to me or about me and your like will be simple.

  248. One time answer
    “What do you mean when you state “the truth of the gospel”

    The self evident one as preached in scriptures. If you heard a different one it is a false gospel as the Apostle Paul declared.

    The end

  249. Nice non-answer troll.

  250. That was a great answer – the gospel message in scripture is self evident. Paul presents a clear message of what the gospel is and who it is to.

    Who could deny that? A Christian could not and would not deny that the gospel message is clear.

    You can claim the Dali Lama and his message equal with Jesus Christ and cause confusion, but no one else falls for it.

    But look, if you want to give your gospel message, go ahead – but I am out of your conversation before Michael lowers the boom.

    Proceed at your own peril.

  251. MLD,
    Remember what you promised last week as regards RB.
    None of us want to see a 400 plus post of the same old back and forth.
    I am with E, seeing RB call someone a troll is funny.

  252. MLD said, “but I am out of your conversation before Michael lowers the boom.

    Proceed at your own peril.”

    Yes, the typical cycle here…you troll, you attack a couple of new voices here…I challenge you, you do your typical schtick and then point the finger and run for cover…then Michael tells me I’m ruining his blog, killing his cat and burning down his house.

    Nice work MLD, you’re pretty slick. More “blog theater” for your enjoyment, just like you like it.

  253. Was waiting for Derek to chime in, missed it by about 20 minutes…but not far off cue.

  254. Now lets see how long it takes you to declare me ignorant.
    Again, predictable.
    How about some Martin Luther and the Jews?
    Or maybe something original maybe God and genocide?
    Nope. Been to all those conversations so many times.
    Who is the troll under Michael’s bridge?
    Lol
    Night.

  255. Derek I have no need to declare you ignorant, folks can read your input.

    The other issues have context and are connected to conversations where others put forth a particular position and then that position is challenged…and the motive is not “blog theater” but rather attempting to dispel an illogical position and seek a logical position…which is often that we really don’t know for sure.

  256. Ok, I’m back with links:

    https://twitter.com/TonyMiano/statuses/371484295451262976 – – A little history – – a while back, I realized that Tony Miano was getting connected with my former pastor who sued me. I have a whole blog on the antics my former pastor, Chuck O’Neal did: legalistic rules, shunning – tearing families apart – even extended family members who didn’t go to the church, records private conversations and then plays them for other people without permission, etc. I didn’t know anything about Miano except that he was a street preacher. When I heard he was starting to do ministry efforts with O’Neal, I attempted to warn him via Twitter. My former pastor saw that tweet and contacted him privately. My next tweet from Miano was that I was unrepentant and other choice words. He has never bothered to contact me to find truth. I’ve told him repeatedly I have witnesses, I have credible info. He doesn’t care. Now we come to find out that O’Neal’s church is financially supporting Miano as a missionary. So, of course, you don’t bite the hand that feeds you.

    In October 2013 Tony got convicted and removed 2/3s of his videos – – no, MLD, it was not a bandwidth issue. Tony has been rebuked about his behavior and this was one of the times he wisely removed numerous videos. Now, unfortunately for us all, he did remove the inflammatory ones – – the evidence that Diane, Lyn, and I have been trying to tell you about, but here are his words:

    So, I made a decision. That 442 video count I mentioned earlier in this article, is now down to 115. I went through the videos and deleted any that I knew had negative content (angry exchanges with hecklers, etc.). If I couldn’t remember the content of a particular video, I deleted it. I deleted all of the videos that solicited the most negative comments. I deleted all of the videos that seemed the most self-serving, the most self-promoting, the most provocative, and/or the most “entertaining.”(http://www.crossencounters.us/2013/10/im-only-5-8-tall.html)

    In this post, he also said he was going to curtail his social media. That did not last very long. He was into it heavily again after he got arrested in Scotland, if memory serves, January 2014.

    I’ve been making other, more drastic cuts in my social media presence. I can’t even access Facebook or Twitter from my computer. I’ve set things up so that if I even try to go to the websites, I’m redirected to my own website. While I still have active accounts on both social media platforms, Richard Story and Chris Hohnholz are maintaining the pages. I don’t even have the passwords to the accounts. If there is something I need to know or if there is something I want to say, it goes through Richard and Chris.

    This is an article Miano wrote after his sister told him he sounds angry and he said it was time for the “lawman to retire” and for him to assume a more fatherly tone.

    This really does sound nice and humble, right?

    Nov 2013

    On the other hand, when my sinful behavior is seen and heard over and above the offense of the gospel, I, in effect, give the unbeliever an opportunity for self-applied, impotent, ineffectual justification of his unbelief. I cannot push anyone away from Jesus (John 6:37; John 6:44; Romans 9:14-18), no matter how sinful my behavior. The unbeliever, by his very nature, wantonly runs toward hell (Proverbs 21:10; Matthew 7:13; John 8:44; Romans 1:32) and has no desire for God (Romans 3:10-18). But that does not give me license to take the sovereignty of God for granted like an unsaved hyper-Calvinist. From my heart, to my mouth, to the words I speak, I must honor Christ Jesus the Lord as holy. In my one-to-one conversations, in my open-air preaching, in my pulpit sermons, in my blog articles, in my communications with Mahria and my girls, I must honor Christ Jesus the Lord as holy. In the end, if I am to be reviled, let it be for my good behavior (1 Peter 3:16), not for my self-justified bad behavior (1 Peter 4:15).

    http://www.crossencounters.us/2013/11/honoring-christ-as-holy-in-my-heart-and.html

    Nov 2013: His conversation with a female college student. What in the world is this nonsense?

    While it is not unbiblical for you to engage men in evangelistic conversations, you will have to decide if, in doing so, you are sacrificing any of your femininity in the process. In other words, you will have to determine if you are sounding like a man in your correspondence. One of the three reasons women should not open-air preach, teach men, or exercise authority over men, which I explain in my book, is that a woman cannot help but to sound and act like a man in the process, thus sacrificing some of her beautiful, God-given femininity.

    Oh, and look at this. Shoot, I need to put a disclaimer on my blog and actually, none of you guys should be reading a word of mine because I’m coming across manly, whatever the heck that means.

    In addition to what I wrote in response to the college student’s email, I would like to add this. It might be wise for Christian women bloggers to give some written indication on their blog that their primary audience, if their blog is directed toward the Christian community, is Christian women. This might help fend off unwanted, unbelieving men from posting comments, and it might help in rightly discouraging Christian men from placing themselves under the teaching of a Christian woman.

    and this:

    Keep blogging, so long as you do so while maintaining God’s intended order, your role in the Bride of Christ, and your God-designed, God-intended, beautiful femininity.

    Now, MLD – – I’m sure this is not going to make you lose any sleep, but this this kind of stuff is bad news for women. It squelches them. Instead of coming across like a shepherd, guiding, using scripture, this man has put himself as an authority on this topic. It’s his way or no way. It is black/white. Sure, he uses the word “might” to soften it, but if you listen to this guy enough, you will see that this is not a maybe issue for him. It is definitive. What he is doing is taking the place of the Holy Spirit. Gullible women will accept this as gospel truth. They have no voice, they are nothings among men. I’m sorry, but this is not “beautiful femininity.” (http://www.crossencounters.us/2013/11/christian-women-bloggers-maintaining.html)

    Jan 2014: Here, he talks about the importance of character: http://www.crossencounters.us/2014/01/book-notes-importance-of-preachers.html

    January 2014: https://twitter.com/TonyMiano/statuses/426103329999962112

    http://storify.com/DefendTheSheep/tony-miano-s-public-behavior

    https://twitter.com/TonyMiano/status/423071712347815936 – Miano tweeted this about the @theweeflea – – The Wee Flea is the Twitter name for David Robertson – – a pastor from Scotland who has lived there for years and expressed concern about Miano’s behavior in Scotland. Notice Miano cannot accept criticism, instead he attacks Robertson and says he is siding with the enemy. Folks, this is NOT good behavior. Later, Miano did make a public apology, but this is the back and forth bad behavior that Miano exudes.

    I apologize for the length of this comment. MLD, if you don’t get it after this, I’m not sure you ever will. We’ll just have to agree to disagree.

  257. I have a ridiculously long comment in moderation. Boy, did I sure open up a can of worms. Bad me.

  258. RB is illustrative of another thought I had on the MD thing.
    If it is someone we like we give them way more leeway than those we don’t.
    Many on here see a lot of the qualities of MD in RB.
    Arrogance, rudeness, non-repentance.
    Things some hate in MD are given the “seventy times seven” treatment to RB.
    Which just shines light on our own hearts and not MD.

  259. I’m not gonna get in on the RB / MLD thing. I think both are fine guys who often get too wrapped up in the argument. Been guilty of that myself.

    I think Derek raises a good point though. I just don’t really like Driscoll, or at least his public persona. It grates on me. Gets under my skin. Yeah, I would definitely say if he were a more pleasant guy I’d be more inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt.

  260. Lyn @241,

    I listened to the video you suggested. I still don’t see why you’re so upset at this guy. He is clearly stating his opinion and has added a caveat that its not sin per se but gave his reasons for his opinions. His opinion is what upsets you so badly. I don’t agree with all his opinions. But if people are not allowed to have differing opinions I would say that is oppressing. Tony Miaono has been vilified because he is not of the egalitarian persuasion and not a feminist. But he is not out there in a boxing match with a woman trying to stop any women from open air preaching.

    However ironically, this is one reason I don’t support women in open air preaching because it is flat out dangerous. Gosh I am a 250 lbs man in good shape but even I feel threatened when I go down to center city Philadelphia and I get threatened and harassed by the 12 tribes of Israel extremist group for just being white and trying to mind my own business. I would never allow my wife to go there by herself and start preaching and if I did she would probably accuse me as irresponsible, unsafe, un-protective and uncaring. That is the truth.

  261. I’ve always said I’d have made a great Calvary Chapel pastor, probably would’ve killed it and made lots of Jesus-money. I think Driscoll is a good comparison at times. But, there’s this other side of me, the side with a Conscience, that wouldn’t ever let me compromise my intellectual honesty, despite my style and demeanor.

    It is why I think that Church as a Business with pastors at a pulpit leading a group of people they call “sheep” is a bad idea. Men are men. Generally, the men who have the balls and the entrepreneurial spirit to manufacture a big church and big following also have very negative tendencies like pride, arrogance, patriarchal mindset, etc.

    The small timers you never hear about? Well, those dudes are probably small time b/c they don’t care about being big and they don’t have that entrepreneurial drive and ambition.

    I am increasingly convinced that it is not “God” who makes a huge church and following…it is 99% man-caused and the efforts of a very aggressive and intentional and driven man. Men much like Driscoll, much like Ries, much like Ed Young or Steven Furdick or Heitzig or insert your mega-church man pastor here.

    That seems to be the fact of the matter.

    I know what I am capable of. I know what I can do if I put my efforts toward it. I also know deep inside that there is an evil in all of us and that many of these mega-church men are fed by that evil desire for power and fame and they exploit people to get it. They have seared Consciences and can no longer even understand the evil they have become.

  262. MLD – Last night I spent a considerable amount of time putting together links/quotes so you could get a better idea of what my beef is with Miano. I hope you will make my time spent worthwhile by reading it – post #263 (it was stuck in moderation for a while).

    I’d like to give you the benefit of the doubt (re: troll comments) and trust that you would at least try to consider what I’ve been saying. And please try to imagine what it’s like as a woman to hear all of his talk about women being quiet – – what message does that send to them and their value to Christ and His work in proclaiming the gospel? I get that you are a dude and you likely don’t spend much time thinking about what it’s like for a woman, but I challenge you to give it a try.

    Thanks much!

  263. RiBo,

    I’m glad you didn’t decide to become a CC mega church pastor and spared us all that grief. I am also glad that you are able to see the deep evil inside yourself of pride and the evil desire for power and fame. I am curious though how you define evil and where your conscious comes from?

  264. Julie Anne,

    Thanks for the back story. I do sympathize with you on being sued with your formal pastor. It was terribly wrong. And I don’t agree with Miano’s tweets. I am suspecting they were not well thought out. I hope you can find some healing with your previous pastor and Miano but I realize that is a tall order. It sounds like they both need to do some major repenting. They probably don’t understand their sin and how bad it really is. I think the same can be said about all of us.

    However, With this in mind, you haven’t convinced me that egalitarian opposed to complementarian theology is correct which seems to be your driving motivation on your blog. I think this issue is not as simple as you think it is biblically. I see a bit of a struggle with Miano trying to get a biblical understanding of the issue. I don’t really see this struggle with you but rather a dismissal of biblical texts that support complentarianism. This is concerning. I hope you can take this in the spirit it was intended. I mean no offense and wish you well.

  265. Julie Anne – the guy sounds like a nutcase, but honestly, why should anyone (including yourself) care? Nobody knows him. There are plenty of nutcases to avoid in my own hometown, ya know?

    Ribo said “I am increasingly convinced that it is not “God” who makes a huge church and following…it is 99% man-caused”

    Much truth there. I won’t make a broad sweep about every bug church, but certainly true for many that I know of personally. Anytime anyone has ever asked me about Steven Furtick the first word that comes out is “DRIVEN”. Then they usually say, “Oh that’s cool, I’m driven too.” And I’m like, you have no clue. I’ve never seen someone so focused and determined. When he was leaving to start Elevation, he’d say things like elevation will have 1,000 people by a certain date. Other people would laugh at him behind his back. Not me. I had no doubt. He’s an OK public speaker and all that. People talk about his charisma, or the cool factor. I’ve met better preachers, more charismatic personalities…much cooler guys. Never. Not even close. NEVER have a met someone who had drive like that guy.

  266. Julie Anne,
    I have read through your website on the issue and I can also say that part of your issue with Miano is connected to your former pastor and is not a stand alone issue.

    My issue is these guys who become “targets”. We were discussing Janet M and out of the blue you brought up Miano, almost as a distraction so you didn’t have to discuss the Ingrid Schulter firing.

    Question, have you actually purchased and read Miano’s book, or have you just been doing the copy / paste things from other web sites.

    I also have one request – you really need to bring the porno donuts story over her. (1) I thought it was hilarious (2) I can’t believe you even let teenagers entertain phallus donuts. LOL 🙂

  267. Andrew asked, “I am curious though how you define evil and where your conscious comes from?”

    Evil is defined by Conscience and Reason.

    For instance, the Old Testament asserts that God commanded King Saul to slaughter all the Amalekite men, women, children, babies and animals and spare none. Saul disobeyed and was rebuked and punished.

    The Old Testament also permitted slavery, beating slaves, executing women and children with stones etc.

    These “evils” mirrored much of the barbarism also permitted and condoned as “good” in that day and age in pretty much all the cultures of that time period. Why is that?

    Today, our collective Conscience and Reason tells us those things above are “evil”….

  268. Josh said, “NEVER have a met someone who had drive like that guy.”

    Yup, that is the Secret Sauce. Business, Politics, Religion…those are the guys that make it “Big”

    You can overcome a lot with Drive and Ambition.

  269. Andrew, I believe Conscience comes from “The Good” or God in whatever form he or it is.

    It is interesting to observe man’s history and watch the definitions of what is “Good” and “Evil” evolve and change over time. Religion is one of the biggest supporting facts of this dynamic.

  270. My step-dad lacked talent though he was a decent public speaker he has always been socially awkward around people and made people feel uncomfortable in close quarters situations. Despite his social retardation, he was able to become quite connected locally with the political and law enforcement communities and he was able to amass a large church for the Visalia area b/c he did have the Secret Sauce: Drive and Ambition.

    He was able to get in with some of the Big Guys in CC like Raul Ries and some others and he was able to get his nose up Chuck’s rear enough to be a favored son when the chips were down. Drive and Ambition trump a lot of things and can overcome other perceived weaknesses.

  271. Today, our collective Conscience and Reason tells us those things above are “evil”….
    _____________________________________________________________________

    I want to challenge you with this. Your basically asserting that our collective Conscience and Reason is the same as God. But the Bible no where even in the NT make any such claim. Evil in the Bible seems more like rebellion towards God than rebellion towards a societal standard. Abortion is a good example. Basically in our society with our collective Conscience and Reason would say abortion is a good thing or at least a necessary evil. The Bible I think would have a different view.

  272. “Drive and Ambition trump a lot of things and can overcome other perceived weaknesses.”

    No doubt. That drive is in some ways a good trait, but in other ways , it is horrific.

  273. Julie Ann,

    Question: Why does it bother you so much that there is a minister out there who preaches that women should be quiet? Does this affect you in any way? Does it bother you that there are women who agree with his message? Are you bothered that there are still a few (probably very few) women in the country who haven’t toed the feminist line? Aren’t women in this country just as free to be old-fashioned as they are free to be modernists? True freedom is the freedom to be just as old-fashioned or as modernist as a person wants to be, without mocking and intolerance and jeering from the politically correct. Everyone being shoved into one modernist mold- *that* is a true lack of freedom.

  274. The bible doesn’t specifically address abortion, though my personal Conscience tells me it is evil.

    If God is “Good” and God cannot command evil, and the bible is the Definer of “good” and “evil”…. then you have to assume that God commanding Genocide is “good” and that killing infants/babies is not necessarily Universally “evil” as the bible says it is “good” in some contexts.

  275. The bible doesn’t specifically address abortion, though my personal Conscience tells me it is evil.
    _____________________________________________________________________

    But your personal conscious isn’t your definition. Its the collective conscious and reason that is your definition. Since abortion is constitutionally legal than why would it be evil with your own definition?

  276. I have read through your website on the issue and I can also say that part of your issue with Miano is connected to your former pastor and is not a stand alone issue.

    The fact that I made a good-faith effort to alert Miano about CON out of genuine concern for his ministry, and the fact that he chose to continue his involvement with CON surely has had me greatly disturbed. I know CON to be a wolf and so it is of great concern to me to have someone fall for CON’s trap. They are 2 peas in a pod – – building each other up online – very similar to what we have seen among the Gospel Coalition Young Restless and Reformed crowd. I’m not sure if you’re familiar with CJ Mahaney, but he’d spend many minutes lauding his buddies before they ever got to the podium to preach – – it was a creepy lovefest. I look at patterns and this is a disturbing one – – I pat your back, you pat mine – – we will ignore any of the ugly stuff that we know is going on in our ministries because what is important is our name. (BTW, amidst a sex abuse lawsuit, maybe half of the SGM churches left SGM, CJ Mahaney remains a pastor in ministry – – hello?!?!).

    So, yes, it disturbs me that Miano would use CON to endorse his book – – CON – – being a pastor who had his license revoked, is in church discipline and also sued 5 people 4 women, 1 guy for defamation.

  277. My issue is these guys who become “targets”. We were discussing Janet M and out of the blue you brought up Miano, almost as a distraction so you didn’t have to discuss the Ingrid Schulter firing.

    Whatever, MLD ::::ja rolls her eyes:::: Instead of trying to presume my motives, why don’t you just ask me? Good grief. I’m very open and honest. I’m happy to discuss the Ingrid Schlueter RESIGNATION. As I said earlier – it happened on my blog. Still waiting for proof that she was fired. Where is it?

    I cannot remember why my brain took a rabbit trail onto Miano – – oh, I know – – because Mefferd endorses him and gives him airtime and I have that issue with her. I like her on some issues, but I have a huge bone to pick with her on giving Miano airtime. That’s what Miano wants: airtime – – – about him, not about Him. That is the pattern I have seen.

  278. RiBo,

    Bill Maher recently skewered the Noah/Flood story with many of the objections to the the literalistic position. It was jarring to hear but inescapable in its logic and objections which simply cannot be dismissed out of hand for the church to have a voice.

    Noah/flood/genocide is one of the reasons I am no longer an evangelical.

    Be that as it may, there are benefits to all of our ancient texts, at least I continue to find them and hope to share them with anyone who will engage.

    I’m hoping you will find some good in each text and find Jesus Christ to be the One Who is worthy of worship despite all the sad things you and others have been through.

    Peace, my brother.
    ( |o )====:::

  279. Collective Conscience and Personal Conscience are often at odds which is why we have Consensus Societally in Govt., Religious Sects, Business etc…but there is still broad and very strong disagreement on many issues.

    Where there is a more Universal Consensus…we can assume a stronger “Good” or a stronger “Evil”

  280. G, agreed, Maher completely deconstructed that narrative and made many valid points.

  281. Question, have you actually purchased and read Miano’s book, or have you just been doing the copy / paste things from other web sites.

    No. I have no desire to fund his ministry. I have read countless articles, listened to numerous videos of him speaking on this topic. He peats and repeats the same ol stuff. I know the foundational message. When you ask do I c&p? – – where are you presuming I get the stuff from – – – – 2nd-hand info? I guess you don’t know me too well.

    I get the stuff directly from him – – – his Cross Encounters, Facebook page, Tweets, etc. As I’ve said numerous times, Miano’s words speak for themselves. He’s prolific in social media.

  282. One major fact that evangelicals seem to miss in all the noise is that the bible states that Jesus enacted a “new law”…a law that did away with the “old law” and rewrote the whole rule-book and the hold “good” vs. “evil” construct of the Old Testament and current age in which Jesus supposedly stated “I give you a new law”

    The bible itself, as is self-evident, asserts it is not universally consistent and had an old “good” vs. “evil” and a new “good” vs. “evil”

    It appears that much changed in terms of morality and good and evil after Jesus. It’s been quite a process throughout the Centuries and throughout Church History and Man’s history…but much has changed, much has been redefined.

    However, there is still much disagreement and very little Consensus…but where we find Consensus…like “Love your neighbor” is “good” and killing innocent kids out of the womb is “evil”…then we can be more sure in our Conscience.

  283. Where there is a more Universal Consensus…we can assume a stronger “Good” or a stronger “Evil”
    ____________________________________________________________________

    Interesting, so most likely your definition of “evil” will vary based on which part of the world you happen to be located at during a certain time?

    If some day, 99.999999% of the Universal Consensus says that their is no God and believing in God is actually Evil than you would conclude that any of us believing in God is evil? Do I have your understanding correct?

  284. Why does it bother you so much that there is a minister out there who preaches that women should be quiet?

    Because he’s adding to scripture in his interpretation. This has consequences to all who hear his message and adhere to it.

    Does this affect you in any way?

    His message does not affect me personally since I consider it rubbish, but it annoys the hell out of me when I think of how many women will wrongly assume that they don’t have choices on how to conduct their lives spiritually because a man told them they couldn’t do this or that.

    Does it bother you that there are women who agree with his message?

    It saddens me that they are being misled, but I don’t lose sleep over it.

    Are you bothered that there are still a few (probably very few) women in the country who haven’t toed the feminist line?

    Not at all

    Aren’t women in this country just as free to be old-fashioned as they are free to be modernists?

    Absolutely! The key issue is THEY should choose – not have MEN choose for them.

    True freedom is the freedom to be just as old-fashioned or as modernist as a person wants to be, without mocking and intolerance and jeering from the politically correct.

    That’s some good preachin’!

    Everyone being shoved into one modernist mold- *that* is a true lack of freedom.

    100% agree!

  285. Other examples: Marrying and having sex with a 13 year old girl in the New Testament was “good”…and today it is “evil”…yet the bible asserts it is “good” in both the old and new testaments as that was the common practice of those days and “marriage” is affirmed and marriage even between Jesus’s parents was underage.

  286. Andrew, it is actually Religion and the bible that shows me that Morality is subjective. I have learned more about the relativity of Morals and good and evil from the bible and been more informed about those realities from the bible and the Christian religion than anything else.

    If the bible contains some truth…one of those truths exampled many times over is the fact that Morals are relative…as exampled in the bible by executing women and children with stones, condoning and permitting slavery, marrying and sex with early teenage girls, etc all of which were “good’ at one time or another according to the teaching and practice of the bible and now are called “evil” by today’s Church and Christian religion.

  287. Julie Anne,
    And the reason you keep following his twitters and other social media is….?

    G and RB are talking about Bill Maher – I watched the other night for 10 min, him and Seth Farlane (I don’t know him) talking about the new Cosmos show. They said the “F” word and others so many times in that 10 min it was an assault on civility – so I turned it off.

    You seem to feel the same about Miano – but you are like a voyeur – turn him off and get on with life. I doubt that his message has changed or will change – nothing new to see there.

  288. Andrew, I’m assuming you believe it is evil to allow a 13 year old girl to marry and have sex today?

  289. Absolutely! The key issue is THEY should choose – not have MEN choose for them.<<<

    But what if THEY CHOOSE to have men choose for them? Do you not see that this is a personal choice some women make? That this life style appeals to some women? That it's a religious conviction they have embraced? That they receive a degree of joy and satisfaction from this life style?

  290. Heck, God knocked up Mary with Jesus when she was 13. Good or evil? Today, God would be investigated and put in jail.

  291. Back to the original argument. Did the flood really happen? Was Adam the first man?

    I have little to say about that. I’m just not that smart or that well educated. But, I will mention this thing. I think it was RiBo or G-man that threw out the term “Evangelicals.”

    I don’t agree there. Maybe a word like “Bible Traditional” or “Fundamentalist” or something else. On this blog many use the term “Evangelical” as a label for certain churches such as CC and others. Maybe even Baptist. But comments about whether Genesis is literal or figurative are not Evangelical vs. non-Evangelical. I would say any liturgical church such as Lutheran, Greek Orthodox, or Roman Catholic is mostly traditional and literal bible. It is not just Evangelicals that believe God created the first man in Adam or Eve from his rib or the flood.

    Go ahead and argue pro and con whether the great religious scholar Bill Maher is right or wrong. But don’t say it is Evangelicals that believe in a literal flood. I’ll bet Lutherans do too. At least some of Lutherans do. Words matter and I would like to see the term Evangelical used correctly and not a synonym for all Christians that person A doesn’t agree with. Although that is often the tenor of certain comments. Lumping groups of Christians you don’t agree with into a single bag.

  292. The fact of Mary’s underage marriage and pregnancies is a testament to the fact that the bible calls something that is considered “evil” in our Christian Church today as “good” during the time of Jesus.

    It shows that Morality is very much subjective…and that is not my doing…it is the bible’s doing.

  293. Other examples: Marrying and having sex with a 13 year old girl in the New Testament was “good”…and today it is “evil”…
    ______________________________________________________________________

    Ribo, before you go on, you are using your own definition of “evil” now and not a Biblical definition of evil yet you use the Bible to make your point. Its so silly. You also have a personal definition of evil that is different that the Collection Conscious definition of evil which is different than the Biblical definition of evil. You are a confused lad.

  294. RiBo, Isn’t marriage at 13 a much different moral dilemma in a society with a 30 year life expectancy. Context my man, context.

  295. Andrew, is it good or evil to impregnate a 13 year old girl? To let her marry?

  296. JU said, “RiBo, Isn’t marriage at 13 a much different moral dilemma in a society with a 30 year life expectancy. Context my man, context.”

    Appeals to “context” is by definition Moral Relativism.

  297. Again, you guys are missing my point.

    Moral Relativism is the bible…yet you all seem to argue against Moral Relativism and say “thus sayeth the Lord!” regarding say gay marriage or another issue you don’t like…yet you are forced to concede that we don’t marry off 13 year old girls and we put guys in jail who get them pregnant today…and you then appeal to “cultural context!”

  298. It is a fact that if God got Mary pregnant in today’s culture and Christian Nation at 13…God would go to jail.

  299. G @285; Jesus (in red letters which should convince you) believed the entire Noah story–all of it.

  300. MLD @ 51 “Yes, we don’t allow him to join any lodge organizations.”

    Good for you sir. You will keep much corruption out of your church with that policy in place. Agnosticism has no place in a church.

  301. Moral Absolutism is where there is a rule or law set forth…and it is in stone…it NEVER changes:

    For example: Bible: “You are permitted to own slaves as personal property”…Moral Absolute or Moral Relativism?

    For example: Bible: “Joseph was betrothed to Mary at age 12 and God got Mary pregnant at age 13″…Moral Absolute or Moral Relativism?

  302. The donut porn story:

    I am called “choir mom” (high school choir accompanist, cheer leader, mentor, etc). I, along with the choir director, took a class to a choral competition in Portland. Portland has a donut shop called VooDoo doughnuts which is a landmark – part of the “Keep Portland Weird” iconic-type of places that has a big reputation for Weird. Last time we were in Portland, we were unable to go, so the kids were excited to experience Portland Weirdness at Voodoo. It worked well this trip because I drove separately and could more easily maneuver in downtown Portland (rather than take the big bus). So, I started taking donut orders. They have weird names: Cock n Balls – use your imagination on the shape of that donut (better yet, see their menu: http://voodoodoughnut.com/doughnuts.php). Ok, so, a majority of the class is Mormon. They were trying to be respectful to me by not saying the real names out loud. The problem is, if I didn’t know the real name, I might have ordered the wrong thing, so I told them” – – don’t worry about saying the crude name. I get it – – you’re ordering a weird donut, you’re not speaking crudely.

    I shared this story on my blog – – it’s quite a funny story. My former pastor who is obsessed on sexual immorality read the comment and comments from my readers, took a quote and attributed to me – – something about me corrupting Mormon students – – heck no, it was a sarcastic and funny comment. He made a big deal about nothing on his blog that he has against me (yes, my former suing pastor has a blog against me and another woman). He’s trying to make it sound like I’m a pedophile who is corrupting high school students with sexually explicit donuts. I’ve told him to report me to authorities or the school district. He won’t do that. Funny thing, every year I keep getting my background check passed and they keep using me for volunteer work – – hmm, in fact, I’m playing piano in an hour in one high school and then tonight at another high school. Dang, I’m so evil and corrupt. There you go, MLD. Direct from the horse’s mouth.

    (PS – only one student bought the phallus donut – – all the others were shaped like bars and regular doughnuts. It really was a non-issue for the students. But it was a big issue for CON – – – he even ahem “borrowed” pictures of said donuts and posted them on HIS site. WHAT????? A pastor posted PORN DONUTS on his site?? LOL My former pastor is nuts. oopsy)

  303. fyi, we don’t know that for sure. We know what the folks who wrote down the words of Jesus and then it was copied and re-copied and re-copied said Jesus said…but we don’t know for sure. We don’t have a perfect record of Jesus and we don’t have a perfect record of what Jesus said. We assume there is some truth that snuck through, but as with all of man’s history and historical records…man is flawed and many of those who coped and re-copied and re-copied and added and subtracted…and then the Canon process that was a group of men over many years who said “this ones in, this ones out!” etc.

    If we saw the sausage being made over the centuries I don’t think we would make the bible as God instead of God being God.

  304. Moral Relativism is the bible…yet you all seem to argue against Moral Relativism and say “thus sayeth the Lord!” regarding say gay marriage or another issue you don’t like…yet you are forced to concede that we don’t marry off 13 year old girls and we put guys in jail who get them pregnant today…and you then appeal to “cultural context!
    ____________________________________________________________________

    I appeal to what God says. He doesn’t address the age when a women can get married so I don’t say a particular age is what makes an act evil or not. In other words its not inherently evil to marry at age 13.

  305. I can only speak for myself and my beliefs. As I said just above, I don’t like to see words and labels misused. Often the truth is more subtle. An example.

    Young marriage in a society with short life expectation. That is one example. Call it moral relativity if you like.

    Another example – actually very problematic.

    Slavery. OK then? Not OK now? Is that moral relativism?

    A point to argue in my opinion. A battle ground for moral relativism.

    But the first point about young marriage and childbirth, that’s simply societal context and societal norms. Not something to prove the truth of relative morality vs. God’s eternal word.

    Therefore I don’t think believing the age of marriage and childbirth matter based on the societal context necessarily means I accept moral relativism as a guiding principle. Not in all its interpretations.

    I’ll leave the slavery discussion to others. Sorry if I opened yet another can of worms.

  306. J.U.

    Hi.
    Not wanting to be a sh*t stirrer here, but yeah, I DO agree with RiBo on many of his objections to fundamentalism and evangelicalism.

    I used the term “Evangelical” to describe what I am no longer supportive of, the christian subculture I used to ardently be a part of, the one which views the bible as a unified message system from beyond our time domain, authored and preserved by God with the goal of giving humankind a narrow opportunity to discover Jesus Christ and become His follower to save itself from the certainty of hell, not because of individual offenses toward God but because of the taint of original sin.

    I am now a simple follower of Jesus, as we find Him in the 4Gospels, and I, by no means, claim to have even a small percentage of my faith figured out, but I cannot accept that Jesus Christ is the same God Who the Noah/flood story makes out God to be, one who drowns innocent babies all around the world because He is upset at His own creation. I cannot believe in that literal story, but I DO believe that I am an individual creation of God and I am ultimately in His care and I trust in Him for my very breath (which could be instantly taken away by drowning).

    Peace

  307. I know I will regret this and I will leave it to others to follow up when his answer fails.

    “…is it good or evil to impregnate a 13 year old girl? To let her marry?”

    1.) What makes it evil?
    2.) How do you distinguish that it is just not your preference.
    3.) Why do they bleed at that age if they are not biologically ready?

  308. Julie Anne,
    And the reason you keep following his twitters and other social media is….?

    We’ll, actually, I don’t have to follow his social media – readers send it directly to my e-mail. 🙂

    Why do I continue to cover him in articles? Because my blog covers spiritual abuse – – I find his message spiritually abusive, controlling, belittling to women and it’s all part of understanding patterns of abuse that people use to control others. It’s important to discuss.

    Ok, enough for now, MLD. Have a good one.

  309. Well, we don’t allow young teens to get married in this society but we allow worse: We allow our young girls to out into the world dressed like hookers and expect them to be sexually active before marriage. We encourage them to watch TV and movies that encourage and normalize promiscuity among teens as if it were right and good. It might be better if we did allow them to marry young than encourage what actually goes on today in the the youth culture.

  310. The Noah story is most likely a story that is a metaphor and can be true in a metaphorical sense of imparting a spiritual truth that is more akin to a parable than a literal scientific reality.

    The argument from both opposing sides: Christian vs. Atheist are probably both wrong.

    The truth is probably that like much of the bible, the story is a spiritual story that is imparting some basic spiritual truths to an ancient Hebrew culture that lacks the scientific understanding to understand much of anything about our Universe and reality in that day and age. As such, the “story” appears literal but imparts spiritual truths and was not meant to be a history book or a scientific journal.

    There are many undeniable problems with the Noah story that we can observe today if the story is taken as literal. So-much-so that it is why the Atheist is so certain the bible is false.

    However, that is the wrong way to look at the bible. The bible is not necessarily “false” it is likely misunderstood by the fundamentalist literalist and the atheist and built up as something it was never intended to be.

  311. X said, “We allow our young girls to out into the world dressed like hookers and expect them to be sexually active before marriage. We encourage them to watch TV and movies that encourage and normalize promiscuity among teens as if it were right and good. It might be better if we did allow them to marry young than encourage what actually goes on today in the the youth culture.”

    Agreed. Very “evil” IMO and not “good”

  312. fyi,

    “G @285; Jesus (in red letters which should convince you) believed the entire Noah story–all of it.”

    “Just as it was in the days of Noah” does not imply complete agreement with the entire story, that’s projection.

    Any person can appeal to a commonly known story in a culture to quote elements from it and make a point.

  313. the context of each thing Jesus illustrated is simple,

    “It will be just the same on the day that the Son of Man is revealed”

    …be ready, for the Son of Man is in your very midst!

    They weren’t ready for Him.

    Are we, am :: I :: ready for Him, right now, today, this very moment?

    THAT is my take-away.

  314. “Are we, am :: I :: ready for Him, right now, today, this very moment?”

    What do you have to do to be ready? comb your hair?

    Believers are ready just bey the fact that they are believers – one of those Jesus promises. 🙂

  315. People develop an interest in sex when they are young teens. Encouraging people not to marry until they are much older (nowadays in their 30’s) is unrealistic, if you hold chastity as a virtue. Biology and the Scriptures say “marry young.” Modern society says “Delay marriage and be promiscuous.”

  316. Julie Anne – it’s always fun.

    Look you either need to read all of his stuff or none of it. what the haters send to you is in an edited form and perhaps out of context. The haters are trying to make a point by sending to you only certain twitters and not all.

    You have a great day too. 🙂

  317. “What do you have to do to be ready? comb your hair?”

    Typically cynical, mocking.
    Sure, if that’s what you get from the passage, by all means, knock yourself out.

  318. Read the Epic of Gilgamesh. It’s the Noah story and originated out of early Mesopotamia.

  319. I am wonderfing if the topic about Miano is just the top of the iceburg with what Julie Anne’s agenda might be. If you see the moral relativism that RiBo is clearly articulating and understand that Julie Anne ran Ribo’s web site as the moderator for quite some time, it is an easy assumption to make that Julie Anne may be coming theologically more from Ribo’s perspective than anything orthodox or Christian. It seems to be more of an ideology that is being fed to us and is contrary to the Word of God.

  320. How am I supposed to abstain from arguing for the truth in Scripture, when those who discard Scripture come here and argue their views?

  321. The ancient Sumerians were contemporaries of what is the same time period of Noah (according to bible genealogy and timeline).

    If there was “one language” pre-flood…then we have that one language in evidence…it is Cuneiform and Ancient Sumerian pre-flood language.

    The earliest copies of Gilgamesh are in Sumerian language and predate the written accounts of Noah in the hebrew written tradition.

  322. The Code of Hammurabi predates the hebrew written “law” and mirrors much of the hebrew “law” and moral codes including “eye for an eye” etc.

  323. G – MLD was mocking you, and I wish he wouldn’t do that.

    But do you realize that suggesting Bill Maher, of all people, has closed the door on my understanding of the Bible, is mocking and insulting my faith?

    It really is, and I wish that you would not do that.

  324. These are facts that are indisputable as the bible claims “one language” pre-flood…and we have tangible archeological evidence today that shows what that language was…Sumerian.

    We have the bible that dates Noah for us.

    We have the archeological record that dates the Sumerians for us.

    Any way you go, it’s a tough one for bible literalists…you are either forced to disprove the verses that assert “one language” pre-flood or to disprove the bible timelines and genealogies to overcome the Sumerian/Mesopotamian issues.

    Attacking the tangible archeological record is a tough one b/c we have the stuff in evidence and many times bible folks appeal to the same archeology to try and prove their theses to prove that an ancient hebrew people existed.

  325. How do you know there was one language pre-flood? After the flood there was one language, the language of Noah’s family and then came the Tower of Babel story, etc.

  326. Those are all ridiculously easy arguments to refute, and only held to by someone who REALLY doesn’t want to believe in God.

    I don’t think this is what Michael wants his blog to be. Can’t we respect that?

  327. The Epic Of Gilgamesh
    THE STORY OF THE FLOOD

    ‘You know the city Shurrupak, it stands on the banks of Euphrates? That city grew old and the gods that were in it
    were old. There was Anu,-lord of the firmament, their father, and warrior Enlil their counsellor, Ninurta the helper, and
    Ennugi watcher over canals; and with them also was Ea. In those days the world teemed, the people multiplied, the world
    bellowed like a wild bull, and the great god was aroused by the clamour. Enlil heard the clamour and he said to the gods in
    council, “The uproar of mankind is intolerable and sleep is no longer possible by reason of the babel.” So the gods agreed
    to exterminate mankind. Enlil did this, but Ea because of his oath warned me in a dream. He whispered their words to my
    house of reeds, “Reed-house, reed-house! Wall, O wall, hearken reed-house, wall reflect; O man of Shurrupak, son of
    Ubara-Tutu; tear down your house and build a boat, abandon possessions and look for life, despise worldly goods and save
    your soul alive. Tear down your house, I say, and build a boat. These are the measurements of the barque as you shall
    build her: let hex beam equal her length, let her deck be roofed like the vault that covers the abyss; then take up into the
    boat the seed of all living creatures.”
    ‘When I had understood I said to my lord,
    “Behold, what you have commanded I will honour
    and perform, but how shall I answer the people, the
    city, the elders?” Then Ea opened his mouth and said
    to me, his servant, “Tell them this: I have learnt that
    Enlil is wrathful against me, I dare no longer walk in
    his land nor live in his city; I will go down to the
    Gulf to dwell with Ea my lord. But on you he will
    rain down abundance, rare fish and shy wild-fowl, a
    rich harvest-tide. In the evening the rider of the storm
    will bring you wheat in torrents.”
    ‘In the first light of dawn all my household
    gathered round me, the children brought pitch and
    the men whatever was necessary. On the fifth day I
    laid the keel and the ribs, then I made fast the
    planking. The ground-space was one acre, each side
    of the deck measured one hundred and twenty cubits,
    making a square. I built six decks below, seven in all,
    I divided them into nine sections with bulkheads
    between. I drove in wedges where needed, I saw to
    the punt poles, and laid in supplies. The carriers
    brought oil in baskets, I poured pitch into the furnace
    and asphalt and oil; more oil was consumed in
    caulking, and more again the master of the boat took
    into his stores. I slaughtered bullocks for the people
    and every day I killed sheep. I gave the shipwrights
    wine to drink as though it were river water, raw wine
    and red wine and oil and white wine. There was
    feasting then as -there is at the time of the New Year’s festival; I myself anointed my head. On the seventh day the boat
    was complete.
    -’Then was the launching full of difficulty; there was shifting of ballast above and below till two thirds was
    submerged. I loaded into her all that 1 had of gold and of living things, my family, my kin, the beast of the field both wild
    and tame, and all the craftsmen. I sent them on board, for the time that Shamash had ordained was already fulfilled
    when he said, “in the evening, when the rider of the storm sends down the destroying rain, enter the boat and batten
    her down.” The time was fulfilled, the evening came, the rider of the storm sent down the rain. I looked out at the
    weather and it was terrible, so I too boarded the boat and battened her down. All was now complete, the battening
    and the caulking; so I handed the tiller to Puzur-Amurri the steersman, with the navigation and the care of the whole
    boat. The Epic Of Gilgamesh
    21
    ‘With the first light of dawn a black cloud came from the horizon; it thundered within where Adad, lord of the
    storm was riding. In front over hill and plain Shullat and Hanish, heralds of the storm, led on. Then the gods of the
    abyss rose up; Nergal pulled out the dams of the nether waters, Ninurta the war-lord threw down the dykes, and the
    seven judges of hell, the Annunaki, raised their torches, lighting the land with their livid flame. A stupor of despair
    went up to heaven when the god of the storm turned daylight to darkness, when he smashed the land like a cup. One
    whole day the tempest raged, gathering fury as .it went, it poured over the people like the tides of battle; a imam
    could not see his brother nor the people be seen from heaven. Even the gods were terrified at the flood, they fled to
    the highest heaven, the firmament of Ann; they crouched against the walls, cowering like curs. Then Ishtar the
    sweet-voiced Queen of Heaven cried out like a woman in travail: “Alas the days -of old are turned to dust because I
    commanded evil; why did I command thus evil in the council of all the gods? I commanded wars to destroy the
    people, but are they not my people, for I brought them forth? Now like the spawn of fish they float in the ocean.”
    The great gods of heaven and of hell wept, they covered their mouths.
    ‘For six days and six nights the winds blew, torrent and tempest and flood overwhelmed the world, tempest
    and flood raged together like warring hosts. When the seventh day dawned the storm from the south subsided, the
    sea grew calm, the, flood was stilled; I looked at the face of the world and there was silence, all mankind was turned
    to clay. The surface of the sea stretched as flat as a roof-top; I opened a hatch and the light fell on my face. Then I
    bowed low, I sat down and I wept, the tears streamed down my face, for on every side was the waste of water. I
    looked for land in vain, but fourteen leagues distant there appeared a mountain, and there the boat grounded; on the
    mountain of Nisir the boat held fast, she held fast and did not budge. One day she held, and -a second day on the
    mountain of Nisir she held fast and did not budge. A third day, and a fourth day she held fast on the mountain and
    did not budge; a fifth day and a sixth day she held fast on the mountain. When the seventh day dawned I loosed a
    dove and let her go. She flew away, but finding no resting-place she returned. Then I loosed a swallow, and she flew
    away but finding no resting-place she returned. I loosed a raven, she saw that the waters had retreated, she ate, she
    flew around, she cawed, and she did not come back. Then I threw everything open to the four winds, I made a
    sacrifice and poured out a libation on the mountain top. Seven and again seven cauldrons I set up on their stands, I
    heaped up wood and cane and cedar and myrtle. When the gods smelled the sweet savour, they gathered like flies
    over the sacrifice. Then, at last, Ishtar also came, she lifted her necklace with the jewels of heaven that once Anu
    had made to please her. “O you gods here present, by the lapis lazuli round my neck I shall remember these days as I
    remember the jewels of my throat; these last days I shall not forget. Let all the gods gather round the sacrifice, except
    Enlil. He shall not approach this offering, for without reflection he brought the flood; he consigned my people to
    destruction.”
    ‘When Enlil had come, when he saw the boat, he was wrath and swelled with anger at the gods, the host of heaven,
    “Has any of these mortals escaped? Not one was to have survived the destruction.” Then the god of the wells and canals
    Ninurta opened his mouth and said to the warrior Enlil, “Who is there of the gods that can devise without Ea? It is Ea
    alone who knows all things.” Then Ea opened his mouth and spoke to warrior Enlil, “Wisest of gods, hero Enlil, how
    could you so senselessly bring down the flood?

    Lay upon the sinner his sin,
    Lay upon the transgressor his transgression,
    Punish him a little when he breaks loose,
    Do not drive him too hard or he perishes,
    Would that a lion had ravaged mankind
    Rather than the f loud,
    Would that a wolf had ravaged mankind
    Rather than the flood,
    Would that famine had wasted the world
    Rather than the flood,
    Would that pestilence had wasted mankind
    Rather than the flood.

    It was not I that revealed the secret of the gods; the wise man learned it in a dream. Now take your counsel
    what shall be done with him.”
    ‘Then Enlil went up into the boat, he took me by the hand and my wife and made us enter the boat and kneel down
    on either side, he standing between us. He touched our foreheads to bless us saying, “In time past Utnapishtim was a
    mortal man; henceforth he and his wife shall live in the distance at the mouth of the rivers.” Thus it was that the gods took
    me and placed me here to live in the distance, at the mouth of the rivers.’

  328. Josh, I do believe in God and Jesus etc. I am just pointing out facts that are not easily disputed. It’s a reality and is a valid consideration for those asserting Noah as literal.

  329. Ribo, please don’t go back to the google and paste. Lets just talk, OK?

  330. X: Genesis 11: 1 Now the whole earth had one language and the same words.

  331. I wasn’t mocking – I was asking – what needs to be done to make us ready for the return of Christ? G, seemed to indicate that perhaps none of us were ready

    I know of nothing – the sheep surely didn’t feel that they were ready / worthy and low and behold there they were in the presence of Jesus.

    I don’t want to be left behind, so someone please tell me what I need to do to be ready?.

  332. Josh, I posted it to illustrate that Gilgamesh’s Flood account is essentially the same as the Noah account…and Gilgamesh is written in Cuneiform Script or Ancient Sumerian language.

    The bible says that mankind only spoke one language post-flood and pre-tower of babel. Which language?

    What language did Noah speak?

  333. Ribo, do you think this is what Michael wants on his blog?

  334. I can speak to RB, but someone tell him that Genesis 11 is AFTER the flood.

  335. Josh, yes, Genesis 11 is post-flood and there is “one language” according to the bible…and if Noah is literal, then that language had to be Noah’s language, no?

  336. “Gilgamesh’s Flood account is essentially the same as the Noah account…”

    Which would tell most thinking people that many ancient people have a flood account…maybe it actually DID happen.

  337. Did Noah speak Hebrew?

  338. RiBo, Chapter 11 is after the flood.

  339. “These are facts that are indisputable as the bible claims “one language” pre-flood…”

    So at least one of your “facts” is dead wrong.

    Can’t we stop this?

  340. What language did Adam and Eve speak to God? Hebrew?

  341. Yes, my point is that it is after the flood, you do not see the problem with the fact that the bible states there was “one language” post-flood and that supposedly Noah’s family were the only surviving humans post-flood that spoke a language?

    What language did Noah’s family speak?

  342. “Did Noah speak Hebrew?”

    This isn’t honest questioning, because we’ve been through this before.

    For those reading – It doesn’t matter because the Bible doesn’t say what language Noah spoke. The dates also don’t matter so much, because the events in the Bible aren’t time stamped.

  343. Of course the “one language” was the language of Noah and his family. Who knows what language it was? Who cares? But you stated, with some confidence, that the Bible says there was only one language pre-flood, which no one claims. So, a goof on your part.

  344. “But do you realize that suggesting Bill Maher, of all people, has closed the door on my understanding of the Bible, is mocking and insulting my faith?

    It really is, and I wish that you would not do that.”

    Josh, that is never my intent, to close the door on anyone’s understanding of the bible, to mock or insult their faith, yet we cannot function daily and not be aware of the objections to faith as expressed by friends, family and co-workers.

    Maher, as edgy as he is, brought up the #1 contradiction voiced by people who have otherwise only causally embraced the flood story from their sunday school / VBS days, or the sweet little images marketed by those who have religious books and wares to sell us and our children.

    The God of this story drowns innocent babies, of humans.

    Babies.

    The story is horrible, brutal, and the storyteller of ancient times wasn’t at all concerned with how it made his God look as a character, which any storyteller today carefully weighs. It’s why I value the ancient story, rough, unvarnished, handed down through millennia, hard to embrace, but it’s clear to me that it’s a mythic story, even valued by Jesus to make a point to His hearers that they must be ready, not distracted just as in Noah’s “day” (story), for His coming into their lives. The take-away for me is “don’t be distracted”.

    At the end, that God creates a rainbow to remind himself of his covenant to never wipe out the Earth’s air breathers by flooding the place, that is a simple device to explain the unexplainable rainbow (pre-science) that happens when a storm breaks, which is truly a relief when any of us air breathers gets relief from water pouring down from “the heavens”.

    So, all this to say, I bring it up because your faith in Jesus, my faith in Jesus, is always the topic of those around us, especially when they say, “You believe in God, where was God when the 6 million died, or when my little cousin got cancer?”

  345. Why would Noah not pass down the Hebrew language if that was his language?

    If Noah spoke another language besides Hebrew, then that’s another can of worms….

    Josh, I’m asking the questions so you can think about it rather than me stating the facts. You must have thought about these issue, no?

    If you haven’t, give it some thought.

  346. “I wasn’t mocking – I was asking – what needs to be done to make us ready for the return of Christ? G, seemed to indicate that perhaps none of us were ready”

    Read the passage in context, he is addressing His presence, right there, before the destruction of the Temple and all those around him were missing it, missing Him.

    Am I ready for my personal encounter with the living and risen Jesus, today?
    Am I ready for the briefness and fragility of my own life?

    Does Jesus give a rip about me first combing my hair?

  347. G- I’ve been to the bottom and back with the Noah story, and I come out on the other side with more faith in God than ever, more confidence in the Bible as His word than ever, and more belief in His goodness than ever.

    For you to assume my faith so shallow and containing such lack of critical thought is insulting.

  348. The story of Noah can be interpreted on three levels, all true:

    1. The literal story, as told.
    2. The spiritual application, which Jesus gave.
    3. An allegorical application, which delights those of us in Ortholandia.

  349. Here’s what we know if we assume the bible is 100% accurate:

    A dude named Noah and his family were the only humans that survived the flood if taken literally.

    They spoke one language, according the the bible, pre-tower of babel.

    Instead of chilling discussion with threats and name-calling, just have a discussion and try to be intellectually honest. It isn’t to disprove God. I believe in God just fine.

  350. Look you either need to read all of his stuff or none of it. what the haters send to you is in an edited form and perhaps out of context. The haters are trying to make a point by sending to you only certain twitters and not all.

    MLD – Nice try. You assume too much.

    When readers send me stuff, I go back to the source documents for context and also provide links to them. Gimme a break.

    Andrew said:

    I am wonderfing if the topic about Miano is just the top of the iceburg with what Julie Anne’s agenda might be. If you see the moral relativism that RiBo is clearly articulating and understand that Julie Anne ran Ribo’s web site as the moderator for quite some time, it is an easy assumption to make that Julie Anne may be coming theologically more from Ribo’s perspective than anything orthodox or Christian. It seems to be more of an ideology that is being fed to us and is contrary to the Word of God.

    Funny, how I”m being talked about even though I have been here – – why not just ask me directly, Andrew. What’s with all the assuming here?

    I cannot keep up with who is here and what handle they use – – didn’t really put 2 + 2 together who Ribo was, so thanks for that.

    Where Ribo and I connect is we have been abused spiritually/physically, and we have a blog. Other than that, ask me directly about my spirituality. I know Ribo has been on a roller coaster ride spiritually (understandably considering how he has been treated in the church) as he has publicly expressed, but no need to make the gossip mill run wild on speculations about me. Have a little integrity, ok?

    Oh, and please tell me about my agenda? I’m dying to know.

    Ok – headed out now for a while.

  351. “Josh, I’m asking the questions so you can think about it rather than me stating the facts. You must have thought about these issue, no?”

    Ribo, I’ve thought about it more than you could imagine, but Michael has asked that his blog not be the place where the Historic Christian Faith is deconstructed. I would like to appease his wishes.

  352. “Instead of chilling discussion with threats and name-calling”

    Who has threatened or called names?

  353. “For you to assume my faith so shallow and containing such lack of critical thought is insulting.”

    Never my intent, your response is purely your own, Josh.

  354. Julie Anne is as solid as they come IMO. She is on board with the basics of the Christian* faith, she isn’t into the philosophical weeds like I am. We share a common very apparent black and white issue: Church Abuse and Church Corruption that isn’t nearly as speculative as theology and philosophy though you’d think it is by the fact that so many in the Church* can’t seem to get on board and call a spade a spade in church abuse situations. You’d think Church Abuse was like defining the Trinity concept for many church folks.

  355. You have no clue how condescending you are being, do you G? I forgive you, but you don’t want theological discussions, so stop lobbing hand grenades and running.

  356. “The story of Noah can be interpreted on three levels, all true:

    1. The literal story, as told.
    2. The spiritual application, which Jesus gave.
    3. An allegorical application, which delights those of us in Ortholandia.”

    2 & 3 work for me. I’m done with one.

  357. X, I’m on board with #2 and #3 above: Spiritual and Allegorical.

  358. #2 and #3 don’t make much sense unless #1 is also true.

  359. The fact seems to be that if you were to take Genesis as literal, then God and Adam and Eve spoke Hebrew to each other, Noah spoke Hebrew etc.

    But the bible and archeology dispute this by asserting that “one language” was world-wide post-flood and pre-Tower of Babel.

    Hebrew written language does not come on the scene until well after Sumerian and other known languages and there is much evidence to the contrary that the World spoke and wrote Hebrew-only for any period of time.

    You would have to assume Noah spoke Hebrew as the language was passed down from one generation to the other according to the bible genealogy and the “name of God” is asserted as consistent in the bible…and in a ‘language’

  360. “#2 and #3 don’t make much sense unless #1 is also true.”

    The parables aren’t literal, but true.

  361. Spiritual killing of millions of innocent babies is so much more pleasant.

  362. “You have no clue how condescending you are being, do you G? I forgive you, but you don’t want theological discussions, so stop lobbing hand grenades and running.”

    Josh, you need to own your responses to my posts.

    You choose to view me as condescending, yet I am simply posting reality as I see it, that the story isn’t cute or benign, it exists, but does dishonor to faith in Jesus to demand it be understood as history.

    As to discussions, “hand grenades” and “running”, I post during breaks, when I’m between projects, as I have time. I am in the line of work which requires me to draw, paint, sketch, work in Photoshop, Illustrator and InDesign, so I cannot park and engage for long stretches.

  363. then God and Adam and Eve spoke Hebrew to each other, Noah spoke Hebrew etc.<<<

    I don't get why you say this.

  364. # 367 isn’t convincing in the least. But nice try.

  365. “but does dishonor to faith in Jesus to demand it be understood as history.”

    Not condescending at all. You think Jesus would have corrected that Noah issue if He had such a problem with it.

  366. “Spiritual killing of millions of innocent babies is so much more pleasant.”

    How about someone who is in the position to kill or not kill each and every breathing entity on the planet, especially innocent babies, not be blamed for a worldwide flood?

  367. “Not condescending at all. You think Jesus would have corrected that Noah issue if He had such a problem with it.”

    As I read Jesus, He took common beliefs and used them to illustrate points which served Him.

  368. “As to discussions, “hand grenades” and “running”, I post during breaks”

    G – you’ve told me yourself you don’t want to have these conversations with me. You have complained that Steve and Mld attack the way you do faith. Then you show up and violently attack my faith, but see no problem with it. That’s hypocritical and unfair.

  369. “As I read Jesus, He took common beliefs and used them to illustrate points which served Him”

    So he was fine with killing millions of babies as long as it served His purpose. But YOU G, are way to good for that awful Noah story.

  370. I *guess,* with no biblical backup at all, that Adam, Eve and God spoke “the language of heaven,” whatever that was. After the corruptions connected with the fall, many different languages developed. Noah and his fam spoke one of them- no reason to assume it was Hebrew. It is unlikely that Hebrew even existed at that time, but who knows. After the flood, everyone spoke the language of Noah’s family, whatever that was, no need to assume it was Hebrew. After the Tower of Babel, different languages developed. Looks the the family of Noah’s son Shem, the ancestor of the Semitic people, found himself speaking some proto-Semitic language which branched off down the road into Arabic, Hebrew, and other Semitic languages. No reason at all to believe Noah, Adam, Eve, Methuselah, etc. spoke Hebrew.

  371. http://www.examiner.com/article/noah-s-ark-prequel-ancient-tablet-reveals-flood-an-ark-that-was-round-video

    Cuneiform Script, in evidence. Pre-dates Noah’s flood and Noah by many years.

    Likely, the Hebrews co-opted the flood story as a religious metaphor and parallel to compete with the Babylonian religion of their day.

  372. X, I day it because “the name of God” must be consistent as God supposedly gave his name to the ancient Hebrews and God “spoke” to them in a language.

    If God’s name “changed” then that’s a problem.

    What is God’s name?

  373. It makes perfect sense to me that all cultures would have some memory of a flood. To me, that is evidence that there really was a great flood.

  374. Ribo @ 379 – If you use google, you can find 1,000 takes that disagree with the conclusions of that article.

  375. RiBo, that is an interesting response. It’s possible that the Tetragrammaton was preserved from the original language down to the Hebrew people and remained in their language, where it is to t his day. I see the Hand of God in this.

  376. Abraham spoke Hebrew with God, correct?

    Noah to Abraham is genealogically defined in the bible and asserts that they had to speak the same language…Hebrew.

  377. X said, “It makes perfect sense to me that all cultures would have some memory of a flood. To me, that is evidence that there really was a great flood.”

    Agreed, I think there is a flood Consensus that we see in many cultures and languages.

    I think that the evidence of “God” and “Gods” in virtually all ancient Cultures is also telling.

  378. “Pre-dates Noah’s flood and Noah by many years.”

    When was Noah’s flood? You would have to believe in Noah and the Flood to go around dating it.

  379. It is also very interesting that all of humanity gains Intelligence at the same general time period, even though there is evidence of mankind for many many years prior to Intelligent Man.

  380. Also, the “I AM” name of God was given to Moses, who did speak Hebrew. The Pentateuch was written by Moses (or at least, compiled by him) in Hebrew.

  381. Xenia, he’s been clinging to this useless nugget for years. Its his silver bullet that bible is false. He clings to it with more faith than any fundamentalist I know.

  382. “G – you’ve told me yourself you don’t want to have these conversations with me. You have complained that Steve and Mld attack the way you do faith. Then you show up and violently attack my faith, but see no problem with it. That’s hypocritical and unfair.

    So he was fine with killing millions of babies as long as it served His purpose. But YOU G, are way to good for that awful Noah story.”

    Josh, I AM way too good for that awful Noah story if I am required to believe that it is an actual historical account, and that Jesus Christ wiped out every living thing that breathes air, yes, indeed, I repudiate that anyone be required to believe that literally.

    I deal with Steve as an individual, and I highly respect him most of the time, and when he shills for Calvary Chapel, occasionally I take issue. I think Steve is admirably navigating his unique position here and I have backed away out of respect for him.

    I deal with MLD as an individual and find his trolling wearisome.

    In dealing with you I unfriended you at FB because you want to fight and wrangle.

    Your faith is your faith, mine is mine, You are a conservative evangelical, I am not. Go do your faith, I will do mine.

    Let’s simply agree to disagree.

  383. Good grief, RiBo, surely you believe that God could speak to Abraham or anyone else on the planet in any language, He’s not limited to Hebrew!

  384. MLD I don’t think the flood happened in 1650 after Adam.

    I think there was a very ancient flood that probably happened pre-intelligent man that was passed on crudely from the many people groups that populated the planet.

    Man becomes Intelligent, all Groups, about the same time in history…including the Hebrews.

    The Adamic account and Adam is likely the first Intelligent Man in the Hebrew lineage, while many other men were around at the same time and becoming Intelligent with languages, societies, numbers, trade, cities etc.

  385. I want to fight and wrangle, but you show up with Bill Maher’s solid evidence that my faith is a joke?

    Grow up.

  386. Have a little integrity, ok?

    Oh, and please tell me about my agenda? I’m dying to know.
    _____________________________________________________________________

    Ok, I’ll ask you outright how long you were the moderator for RiBo’s blog? Maybe you find no significance in that but others might and I certainly did especially after I was banned from the website after RiBo called me an A-hole on this web site and I said something about it on his web site. Your agenda appears to me to bring down any pastor that in any way teaches a complementarian theology rather than an egalitarian theology because you view complentarians as abusive no matter who they are. At least this appear to me to be your agenda.

  387. This is my final post on this blog.

    These type of discussions cause Micaheal pain, and I like Michael so I don’t want to bother him anymore. However, I can’t show up, see garbage, and not speak.

    I believe in every word of the Bible. No apologies needed.

    Grendal Hanks is more full of crap than any individual I have ever met.

    To all my friends, I’m glad to continue with you on facebook if you’d like, but I can’t continue here without causing trouble.

    I’m out.

  388. The Hebrew accounts are always Hebrew-centric as if there are no other peoples on the planet unless the Hebrews are captive or warring with others etc.

    The fact is there were many other peoples on the planet at the times of the bible, Chinese recorded history and the archeological evidence supports this as one of a bunch of examples.

  389. Well, Josh, I’m rarely here so you can feel free to come and go as you please.

    I’m sure Michael would prefer your presence here.

  390. I feel I caused this by remarking I chuckled at the idea of RiBo calling MLD a troll? Derek agreed with me and it seems everything began. I wasn’t attacking RiBo or looking for him to be banned or moderated as I have in the past as I thought he was doing a lot better in communicating.

    Now it’s spiraled down the drain once again so I apologize for my part in this.

    Josh, you have no reason to leave. You represent a lot of people here and add a lot. Reconsider.

  391. I’ve temporarily disabled my FB account (for reasons unconnected with the PhxP) so no one think I have unfriended you, please!

  392. RiBo, the reason the Scriptures are Hebrew-centric (the people, not necessarily the language) is because this was the family line that eventually produced the Messiah and were the keepers of the Scriptures. God, for His own purposes, did not choose the Chinese or the Arapahoes to be the ancestors of Christ. I think you already know this 🙂

  393. Julie Anne = Maude cause she revealed herself once. Unless there is more than 1 Maude, it is her.

  394. “the whole world!” is probably meaning “the known Hebrew small world” of their day and not literally the “whole world” for all of time.

  395. E there is a big difference between honest questioning and what MLD often does. MLD says he has no dog in the CC abuse hunt, he has also stated he is very comfortable and settled in his Lutheran box…so his stuff is by his own words trolling and not seeking something that is unsettled in his mind or some sort of personal abuse situation he’s been affected by in the church. He just likes to provoke people for sport which is trolling.

  396. X said, “because this was the family line that eventually produced the Messiah and were the keepers of the Scriptures”

    Yes and as such their “world” is very limited to their first Intelligence (Adam) and their region (the middle east) and “world” does not mean the whole planet for all of time.

  397. The overwhelming archeological evidence and historical records (written) all seem to support as fact that there were a lot of other humans on the planet when “Adam” the first Hebrew of Intelligence came on the scene…about the same time other human people groups became intelligent and started talking in languages and writing and forming cities and societies and trading stuff and smelting things etc etc.

    We have overwhelming evidence from all over the planet that there were “humans” as in homosapiens who inhabited the planet well before Adam.

  398. RiBo, as is often the case, you and I have different standards for what we accept as evidence.

  399. RB,
    If you knew what you were talking about, someone might take you seriously one day.
    Josh has no CC background and has made no claims of abuse … and he is here.
    Derek has no CC background and makes no claims to abuse…. and he is here
    Xenia, left CC for theological reasons like I did and made no claims of abuse (other than the few times she claimed to be the abuser.) … and she is here
    erunner was here as a CC defender … and he is here

    So, are you calling them all trolls because they have no dog in the CC abuse hunt?

    Shallow man.

  400. These are some of the reasons I assert that Adam is both literal and archetype.

    Literal in that he may have been a literal person and the first in the line of Hebrews to be Intelligent as we are today…”Knowledge of Good and Evil” and “become like God”

    And Archetype in that Adam is representative of what many other human people Groups experienced in their transition from non-Intelligent humans to Intelligent humans who began to speak, write, form societies, have God concepts, forge metals etc etc.

    If you examine human history, you will find a lot of similarities in many of the “god” concepts and many of the Flood Stories etc and all the humans become Intelligent at roughly the same time period in the evolutionary process, which is roughly about the time of Adam according to bible Genealogy.

    ..all despite the fact we have overwhelming evidence of Pre-Adam humans and primitive cultures, cave drawings, crude implements, crude tools etc etc.

  401. RiBo, how do you know that there were intelligent folks on the planet before Adam? I agree that it appears that intelligent humanity seemed to pop up all at once but how do you know that Adam did not precede all these smart folks?

  402. you will find a lot of similarities in many of the “god” concepts and many of the Flood Stories etc and all the humans become Intelligent at roughly the same time period <<<<

    This correlates well with Scripture, IMO. It figures that all cultures would have a dim racial memory (whatever that means, probably not a good phrase) of the Creator, of the Flood, and so on. The ones God gave special revelation to were the Jews so they have the true version.

  403. Another problem with the Noah account: You have Egyptian hieroglyphs pre and post flood and pre and post Tower of Babel that show no break at all.

    Yet, the literal bible account says all men spoke the same language pre-Tower and post-flood, and then God scattered the languages. To accept this as literal you’d have to assert that there were Egyptian hieroglyphs pre-flood, then none during post-flood to Tower of Babel and then suddenly they re-emerge the same as before after the Tower of Babel event.

    Highly unlikely.

  404. It’s true, I have no special beef with CC. If I knew someone who insisted on being an Evangelical I would just as soon recommend a CC as any other kind of church. I do not agree with Protestantism in general, not CC in particular. You could do a whole lot worse than CC.

  405. MLD, this is much larger than CC abuse for RiBo. Because I am with him with the abuse in CC yet he still got me banned from his blog.

  406. Andrew:

    I don’t know anything about you being banned from CCA. That has/had nothing to do with me.

    Your agenda appears to me to bring down any pastor that in any way teaches a complementarian theology rather than an egalitarian theology because you view complentarians as abusive no matter who they are. At least this appear to me to be your agenda.

    Please back this up with proof. It’s absurd. My good friends are complementarians. It works for them. They both choose this. They have a beautiful marriage.

    My agenda is about pastors/religious groups/institutions/spouses who use a position of authority to CONTROL others, rather than to instruct/guide as the Bible admonishes teachers to do. No one has the responsibility to rule over anyone, period.

  407. X asked, “RiBo, how do you know that there were intelligent folks on the planet before Adam? I agree that it appears that intelligent humanity seemed to pop up all at once but how do you know that Adam did not precede all these smart folks?”

    Recorded human history as in writing in evidence and the signs of Intelligence like numbers, money, trade, rule of law, moral codes etc.

    Adam is contemporary of other humans of Intelligence…but recorded human history does not show evidence of Intelligent humans before Adam, but there is much evidence that does show humans and homosapiens in earlier stages of pre-Intelligence…all over the planet.

  408. Andrew you were banned from CC Abuse?

  409. I don’t remember that. I have a couple of moderators with access and they are pretty autonomous. If they had a reason, I am not throwing them under the bus, I just don’t remember you getting banned and I don’t think I banned you.

  410. No one has the responsibility to rule over anyone, period.<<<<

    Hebrews 13:7

    Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.

  411. “Prehistory” is the time period before coherent languages in writing that we have evidence of today.

    Adam, according to the bible genealogy and dating, comes on the scene at the dawn of “Recorded Human History” and signs of Human Intelligence in many examples and cultures.

    Prehistory shows humans and civilizations well before Adam, but they do not exhibit the Intelligence of Adam or his contemporaries.

  412. RiBo, when was Adam? If you don’t have a date for Adam (no one does) then you have nothing to make the comparison with.

  413. Julie Anne is as solid as they come IMO. She is on board with the basics of the Christian* faith, she isn’t into the philosophical weeds like I am.

    This is very true. It hurts my brain to go to all of those places. Just give me Jesus.

  414. RiBo,

    I was banned some time ago by Maude when my comments were moderated when I asked about you calling me an A-hole on this blog. Maude moderated that comment and said that there will be no comments from other blogs posted on this blog. I tried several times and several days since than to post comments on that blog with no success. I gave up trying and really have no interest in posting anymore.

  415. Adam, according to the bible genealogy<<<

    Ah, I see. I think it's more useful to use the OT genealogies as "The OT's Greatest Hits" and as a rough chronology, rather than counting up the years and coming up with a literal date, such as Bishop Ussher did. If you discard the good Bishop, there's room for everything.

  416. We see much evidence in the Neolithic or “New Stone Age” period of man in the pre-language Sumerian culture, Egyptian, Peruvian, Indian etc. even China.

    All predate Adam if Adam came on the scene about 5,000 to 6,000 years ago.

  417. Julianne, Nothing like having a solid Christian endorsement from RiBo. What exactly that means, I don’t know but I would be embarrassed for this kind of endorsement knowing what RiBo stands for which is complete utter nonsense and moral relativity in EVERYTHING.

  418. if Adam came on the scene about 5,000 to 6,000 years ago.<<<<

    I think that's the sticking point. I think Adam was created long before that.

    But I am not a YEC.

  419. Andrew, my apologies. Probably my fault for not paying enough attention there. My apologies for calling you names as well.

    You are welcome to comment there and I’ll find your comment and I should be able to release it from moderation. Maude was just trying to bring some order to my chaos over there.

  420. “But I am not a YEC.”

    Me neither, too much evidence that shows the earth is old as well as humanity pre-Intelligence.

    God caused this stuff, I’m convinced of that, but I’m not convinced by YEC or the common evangelical apologetics regarding what we can see and observe today in evidence.

  421. Andrew said, “What exactly that means, I don’t know”

    It means I’ve read a lot of Julie Anne’s stuff and talked to her a lot on the phone etc and she seems to articulate a belief in a very orthodox (little “o”) Christian faith with a lean to the liberal side when it comes to patriarchy and Egalitarian vs. Complementarian issues.

    I think on the major issues of the “faith” the two of you would agree on a lot.

  422. Xenia – – please look that verse up with original meanings. That verse is one of the verses that pastors use to abuse to exert their control/authority over others. It does not mean “rule” like we understand. It means to guide/lead. http://spiritualsoundingboard.com/2012/03/22/obey-those-who-rule-over-you-and-be-submissive-part-2/ In that link, I have included resources for you to search for yourself.

    An elder at my cult church pulled me aside and read that verse to me over and over again on one of the last Sundays we were there. No one has a right to control another person or be their Holy Spirit.

    Protip: Any leader who says “you must submit to me” is not a good leader. No good leader would ever say that. Good leadership and behavior is like a magnet drawing you toward them. You want to be a part of what they’ve got going on. Think of Jesus and the crowd who followed Him. He is our example of good leadership.

    Andrew ^^^^ the above is my agenda – – – trying to help people see what healthy leadership looks like, encouraging people to be good Bereans and check things out for themselves, allowing them to have a voice, make their own choices, etc.

  423. My agenda is about pastors/religious groups/institutions/spouses who use a position of authority to CONTROL others, rather than to instruct/guide as the Bible admonishes teachers to do. No one has the responsibility to rule over anyone, period.
    _________________________________________________________________
    Ah, so there is an agenda. I don’t think you had one. 🙂 Anyway, I can agree with you on this but to my knowledge you have never once recommended any pastor or teacher or theologian or anyone who espouses a complentarian view though you say you have friends that believe this. . However, not one teacher that I am aware. I would love to hear even one teacher that you respect that teaches a complentarian view but all I keep seeing is all the trash you bring up against complentarianism.

  424. “God caused this stuff, I’m convinced of that, but I’m not convinced by YEC or the common evangelical apologetics regarding what we can see and observe today in evidence.”

    Agreed

  425. No need RB. It was so long ago. I appreciate your apologies though.

  426. So, back to the guitar.

    Josh, feel free to come back.
    Sorry for the disagreement.

  427. “3. Fred Phelps of the notorious Westboro Baptist Church is near death. I fear for his soul far more than those of the people he hated.”

    Sad for Fred. No one should enter eternity with such a legacy.

  428. Thanks for the discussion folks. I appreciate it. I am an honest questioner, it is not to destroy faith but to find any crumbs of truth that convince me. If I didn’t believe in God and didn’t think that some of you know “God” in whatever form, I would spend all my time on Atheist blogs and wouldn’t come here.

  429. “7. It is spiritually impossible for someone to be your pastor who doesn’t even know your name.”

    This little slice of reality slipped my consciousness for decades until I actually got to know my pastors as friends, and took them down from their pedestals and related to them as peers.

  430. “I am an honest questioner, it is not to destroy faith but to find any crumbs of truth that convince me. If I didn’t believe in God and didn’t think that some of you know “God” in whatever form, I would spend all my time on Atheist blogs and wouldn’t come here.”

    =)

  431. Julie Ann, the footnote in my Orthodox Study Bible disagrees with you.

    Hasta la vista, tengo cosas que hacer.

  432. Xenia – – I’m not talking footnotes in a study Bible – – – that is man’s interpretation. Go to the original languages and find the meanings.

  433. Julie Ann, are you an expert in the Greek language? No? You are relying on some man’s interpretation then? Yes?

  434. By the way, I am a member of a Church whose byline is “Greeks R Us.” They know Greek.

  435. Curiously, my teacher and mentor, who is an Oxford PhD and knows the Greek language very well, is one of the editors of the Orthodox Study Bible.

  436. But that’s neither here nor there.

    a tout a l’heure, j’ai des choses a faire

  437. Holy crap… I can see why people leave here. I have learned much from all here in the past but the wheels came off today. I agree with Josh, Michael deserves better. It’s hard to watch what happens here and I hope that you all sort it out. I can’t be here and watch what this place has turned to. Not that my comments added anything to the show anyway but I used to enjoy the fellowship, even with those who I disagree with. I can’t watch this anymore.

  438. X

    You enjoy the View?

  439. Bob, if you think I am being uppity and snooty, pompous and acerbic, opinionated and a know-it-all this afternoon, I can only agree with you.

  440. MLD said, “So, are you calling them all trolls because they have no dog in the CC abuse hunt?”

    No, that is not the issue, they don’t seem to rile people up just for “blog theater” like you have demonstrated over the last 5 years I’ve been on here.

    You seem to do it just for sport, which is wrong IMO.

    You don’t seem unsettled in your Box, you don’t have a beef with church abuse, and unlike the others you do play things up intentionally and rile folks for sport. You’ve stated at times in the past you view it as theater.

  441. Greeks and experts on Greek language are probably best to rely upon for what the literal words seem to say.

    Even so, there will be much disagreement which is the nature of appealing to a written text as “thus sayeth the Lord!” when in reality I think God is more Spirit than text on pages.

  442. RB,
    I think church abuse is not baptizing your babies – denying that the body and blood are present in the Supper and telling people to look for anti Christ instead of Jesus Christ. I think church abuse is replacing Jesus Christ with ethnic national Israel and telling people that God still has a special prophetic place for the current state of Israel.

    I am very unsettled in my box and the church.

    I came here out of church abuse – remember, I was part of the Skip thing that blew this blog to the top … but sue me, I got over it.

    I am now here to counsel you on ‘how to get over it.’ 😉 .

  443. ‘how to get over it.’

    You don’t ever get over the abuse I saw and suffered. It’s a life-long proposition.

  444. …you do learn to survive and fight back though.

  445. “for “blog theater”

    over the years you have forgotten the intent of my blog theater designation. We all come here (more so in the past) with blog names and little funny gravitar pictures. Everyone takes on a persona … even you.

    Unless you maintain that you are this madman at home with the family and with your employees at work.

    Embrace the theater of it all being here

  446. I’m the same guy, I treat the jerks I encounter at the stores the same as you. I treat my wife and kids and friend the same way I treat Julie Anne and Muff and many others.

  447. So when you have a face to face discussion on spiritual things, you are in the strangers face and you make 6 comments for every comment they have time to get out? LOL 🙂 I don’t think so.

  448. friends plural, believe it or not I have more than one friend LOL.

    My whole life is like this. I’m pretty intense off-blog at times and can also be very nice, it really depends on the person and the circumstance.

  449. MLD, the face-to-face tense moments in the pawn & gun stores is not usually about theology…and by the time it’s that tense it’s usually mostly expletives and hand gestures by that time and yes it’s about 6 comments to 1 and they are usually on their way out the door.

  450. Gotta run. Have to go to one of the stores and resolve a situation. It’s not about theology or church abuse.

  451. #258 was meant to derail exactly what happened here.
    It failed quickly as RB seems to never change no matter what he claims.

    #265 was just thoughts about the earlier MD convo.
    It wasn’t meant to be personal. It was an observation on similar situation.

    But, someone had to go and feed the troll that is RB anyways.
    RB didn’t stick to his guns about interacting better here. He failed in that before my #258.

    I actually had hope last week that maybe RB had turned a corner.
    I can see I was wrong.
    I had determined to sit back and see where it went and not speak and ruin it.
    I actually hoped that maybe things would improve.

    Maybe, Josh has the right idea.
    Michael deserves better than this.

  452. WTF. Once you become personally invested in an argument, whether you’re an atheist or a fundamentalist/evangelical or whatever in between, you have officially joined the Dark Side, IMO.

  453. You have created quite a straw man Derek.

    I shared my opinion about Driscoll, Noah and the other issues brought up on this thread and shared my opinion about MLD and defended two new voices that appeared on here and defended Julie Anne.

    My comment the other day had to do with regards to how to approach Calvary Chapel pastors who are trying to do the right thing, and on that front, I’ve stuck to that new direction so far and am working behind the scenes to build bridges.

  454. If you disagree with a position I’ve taken or with facts I’ve presented about the other issues I’ve addressed today, then I’m all eyes and ears.

    Instead it is your typical dismissal and avoidance of the issues I brought up and then the name-calling and finger pointing in an attempt to shut down free honest open discussion of issues.

  455. Lots of fear-based dynamic on this blog. Fear, guilt and shame. Bad stuff. I feel for some of you guys, I really do. It’s not how it should be. God is not that God.

  456. Got more important things than to you RB. I am on the #savesaeed train tonight.
    Have a nice night!

  457. Good luck with your efforts Derek, all for the #savesaeed, great job working on it.

  458. Wow! This has been an interesting read. Josh is out, Grendal is full of crap, Xenia needs to go to the original sources, and Neo said WTF. MLD may be jerk at times, but he does understand the theater…. even if he still wants to act after everyone has dropped the curtain. And Josh is right, Michael doesn’t need this headache……

    Philosophical weeds? Justin didn’t think so, neither did Clement, but I digress.

    Free Saeed!

  459. X said, “RiBo, when was Adam? If you don’t have a date for Adam (no one does) then you have nothing to make the comparison with.”

    If I assume that the bible genealogies are literal and correct or at least close…then we have a date of around 5,000 to 6,000 years ago.

    Ever studied the bible genealogies and dates/ages of the bible characters? Something really bizarre stands out to me:

    The Lifespan of the bible characters tracks the lifespan of the reigns of Kings of other peoples in recorded history and the archaeological evidence we have about them. Humans grew very old from Adam to Noah to Job, then Lifespan shortens from Abraham to David and then really shortens after David up until the time of Jesus.

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